Scott Brown: “We Would Not Be Worrying About Ebola Right Now” If Romney Won
http://t.co/tvmNH5wMZb
Bain Capital would've weaponized it.
— Billmon (@billmon1) October 17, 2014
I swear, America’s political history during the last hundred and fifty years can be reduced to the swing of a Great Bipartisan Pendulum. No matter how large or small an event, “we” swiftly sort ourselves into two camps…
Democrats: OH FVCK HOWEVER ARE WE GONNA FIX THIS ONE?!?
Republicans: WHO ARE WE GONNA PUNISH FOR THIS!?!
I love you, John Cole, but be honest: Your first reaction, as filtered through this blog*, is to look for a witch to burn or a Jew to throw down the well**. But you’re not actually an idiot, and you’ve got a generous heart, so you’ve learned (we Democrats have taught you) to direct your anger at the people who really should be blamed and punished — the robber barons, talibangelicals, and other miscreants mostly congregated in the GOP. Guess a little backsliding is to be expected, under extreme stress…
*[for the record, all I know about Cole is what I read here]
**I was going for a Borat joke, but y’all convince me it was #fail.
***********
Apart from mocking the Hair on Fire brigade, what’s on the agenda as we start the weekend?
jl
Morons or vile opportunists or craven cowards Hagan and Prior calling for travel ban.
If they know better than the docs and epidemiologists, maybe they should volunteer to treat the Ebola patients.
Maybe Obama should suggest that, with Biden holding his shotgun and looking like he means business in background.
Kay Hagan And Mark Pryor Call For Travel Ban Over Ebola
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/mark-pryor-kay-hagan-travel-ban-ebola
Edit: I will also hold my breath while corporate media hacks condemn GOP fear mongers and opportunists like Brown for politicizing the outbreak. Nice knowing you all kind folks, see you in a better world (and the way things are going, that won’t take much).
dubo
Brown is completely right. We WOULDN’T be worrying about ebola right now if Romney won. Not because the situation would be any different, but because Everything Is Good News For John McCain
Mnemosyne
By the way, AL, “ritalin booster” did turn out to be the correct solution last night. Thanks for the reminder — the effects are subtle enough to me that I tend to forget I have that option.
am
That wasn’t the kindest thing to say about John…
Violet
Since you mentioned a former MA Governor and former MA Senator, just saw this:
Is Martha Coakley a terrible candidate or something? She sucked when she ran for Senator. Now she’s tied for Governor.
Violet
@Mnemosyne: Can you take a “booster”? I didn’t know that. I thought ritalin was something you took on a schedule. Edit: Not “you” specifically but that it was a medication to be taken on a schedule. That’s how the moms I know that give it to their kids do it.
Calouste
@dubo: We would not be worrying about Ebola if Romney had won because we would be too busy worrying about Iraq War No. 3 (with some Syria thrown in).
Mnemosyne
@Violet:
Yep. I have a time-release dose I take in the morning that lasts about 8 hours, and then I have a short-acting “booster” that lasts 3-4 hours that I can take as needed. They don’t always use it for kids because apparently ADHD meds can affect a kid’s appetite in a pretty major way and they want to make sure that the kids eat enough dinner, but it’s never been an appetite suppressant for me.
They prefer you to take it on a schedule just so your memory and attention stay steady, but there’s not much worry about creating an addiction in people who have ADHD because stimulants act differently on our brains than they do in normal people’s brains. Some people with severe ADHD even take Ritalin before bed as a sleep aid because it calms them down enough to sleep.
HR Progressive
If Romney had won, we’d be worried about which new country we’d be dropping Freedom Bombs on, and/or Financial Meltdown 2: The Re-WallStreetening.
So, Scott Brown, meet Blind Squirrel.
jl
AL. leeeeaaavvveee John Cole alllloooonnne…
Cole means well. Too bad he does not seem to understand following things:
When Ebola infection is transmissible (NOT during incubation and not during prodromal stage when initial symptoms first appear. It becomes more transmissible as full blown symptomatic syndrome develops and patient is sloppy sick).
Clinical medicine has protocols for a reason. These people have important jobs to do, and lives to live. The nurse he bashed DID check and I think double check and followed CDC advice and protocol as it was at the time. The nurse did not have symptoms on the flight, so probability of transmission very very low, probably very close to zero.
What is the point of having protocols if people just do like they feel. “I will not be at work, because I have a random cautious feeling that for some reason I should not follow your advice and Cole might yell at me on his blog.” That would be great way to run a clinical floor.
There is no reason to cater to the ignorant, the fear mongers and ruthless political opportunists.
It’s now known the the hospital made odd decisions about when to implement proper protective procedures and gear.
I assume Cole will graciously offer a retraction and apology, I absolutely assume, nay, know in my bones, such a gentle sweet soul with gracious interpersonal skills will do the right thing any second now.
Belafon
@HR Progressive: So, occasionally, even a Scott Brown can find a Blind Squirrel?
gian
@HR Progressive:
My first thought was … Scott knew that Mitt was going to start a nuclear war?
Trentrunner
I hope you’re not saying this is one of those issues that is “BEYOND POLITICS.”
This IS politics. How we collectively react to a crisis is, by definition, politics.
What this is not is HORSE-RACE politics, which is the very small subset of superficial shiny objects and time-tested “cultural” cudgels we use to smack each other with.
It IS relevant that CDC or NIH funding has been cut due to the sequester and other Republican budget assholery.
It IS relevant that all three US ebola victims came from a private hospital, two of them catching it at the same private hospital, and that all the survivors thus far have been treated at public-funded institutions.
It IS relevant that we don’t have a Surgeon General–for more than a year–because Republicans are beholden to the NRA.
All this–and there’s much more of it to come–is POLITICS. It’s how we decide to come together, pool our resources, and perfect civilization.
Mr. Twister
@jl: They’re not morons or cowards. They’re Democrats trying to win in Red states, with a Republican compliant media whipping the country into a frenzy. The real villain in all this is 24×7 cable news.
Violet
@Mnemosyne: Interesting! Thanks for the info. I was unaware of how it worked. I don’t know adults who use it–only moms who have kids on it–mostly boys.
Turgidson
A President Mittens would still be waiting for his MBA consultants to figure out how Ebola could be exploited for profit, and if at all possible, as a pretense to fire some blue collar workers.
Violet
If Mitt had won he would have binders full of Ebola. He might even have them right now.
Roger Moore
@jl:
I think the correct term is “Democrats up for reelection in Red States.”
chopper
the fuck?
Josie
@Violet:I had to chuckle at the binders – I had forgotten that idiocy. I just have daymares about either McCain or Romney handling any of the stuff that is going on right now. We are so lucky (or good) to have escaped such a fate. I hope our luck continues to hold for the next election.
MattF
That’s an amazing statement from Brown. But probably true– ‘we’ would not be worrying about Ebola because Republican shitheads like Brown would be under orders to keep quiet. To search for a possible analogy– it’s almost like the barely fictional situation where a major American city was under water and the emergency response was being led by a political hack. So, everything is fine, has always been fine and will always be fine and Bush was an unappreciated genius. Repeat, rinse, repeat.
Howard Beale IV
Quite frankly, the only ones who have done any decent work on trying to contain ebola at its source is Médecins Sans Frontières-and they have been paying a very heavy price. Even the WHO admit they fucked up.
chopper
if mittens were president 47% of us would probably have Ebola right now.
Baud
Some of us aren’t worrying about ebola. Just saying.
chopper
@Howard Beale IV:
I heard today that in west Africa a majority of beds for Ebola patients are still covered by MSF. I have no idea where the fuck the WHO is in this whole shitfest.
chopper
@Turgidson:
president mittens would just outsource Ebola to India. boom, done.
piratedan
@Mr. Twister: I would agree, it’s hard to run against the narrative that is being pushed by the “news” plus the non-stop crap of cherry picked, free of context numbers that the GOP advertising agencies specialize in for their ads.
Do I wish that a Democrat would stand up and simply state all of the good reasons why taxes are used and what they’re used for, sure I would… but then again, I would expect the same GOP spin masters to pick that apart and tell us all “what it really means”. Being a paid lackey of the rich can be a lucrative profession, all it takes is a small part of your soul….
SatanicPanic
Everybody look, front pagers fighting!
FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!
Howard Beale IV
@chopper: When Auntie Beeb is throwing the WHO under the bus, you know its pretty bad.
MattF
@SatanicPanic: They’re not fighting. They’re acting out their combative tendencies.
Quaker in a Basement
Politico gets trolled by christwire.org:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/ebola-crazy-things-people-say-111993.html?hp=pm_1#.VEGdL_ldVSQ
Roger Moore
@dubo:
Right answer, wrong reason. If Romney had won, we wouldn’t be worried about Ebola, but only because we’d be too worried about our invasions of Syria and Iran.
debbie
So all I’m hearing from conservatives is that it’s not the hospital’s or Texas’s fault, it’s the CDC that’s to blame. Then I hear someone say that the CDC can’t assist on a crisis until the state invites them to assist, and Texas hadn’t done that. Does anyone know if there’s any truth to that?
Tenar Darell
@jl:
Heck, I’ve been yelling at the tv and radio. I’m muting or fast forwarding through ads. I’m avoiding local and national news. I am no longer listening to NPR. And I am fast forwarding through some of my news podcasts. I’m even skipping some of my feeds! What’s a news junkie to do when the insane amount of ignorance, panic and fear have taken over everywhere? I can’t stand hearing that Democratic politicians are joining in. I’ll be voting. But this is why I have a lack of enthusiasm. Why should I support those creeps by volunteering or giving them money? Why aren’t they pointing out at top volume that “you cheapskate Republicans are the ones who cut all our public health budgets everywhere!” Why aren’t they pointing out that the Republicans blocked the Surgeon General, but now they want a Czar, after saying there were too many Czars! /grumble
@Anne Laurie
Regarding the two nurses, and/or the lab tech. Policies, procedures and checklists cannot be changeable, they cannot be optional, and they should never put the onus of using them on any single individual’s common sense, because then they really don’t work. Humans are error based organisms. People do stupid sh*t. Murphy lives and rules in any endeavor. That’s why training, practice and checklists are all part of the package. That hospital threw those nurses into the deep end and expected them to improvise. Up to and including the hospital not calling the CDC and letting all their staff know right up front what exact travel restrictions they should follow!
Ruckus
@Trentrunner:
This. 1000 times.
Howard Beale IV
Steven Brill, Reuters: Hospital turns to PR to fight Ebola
Brill cites a damning article iin the Times. – but it gets worse:
Roger Moore
@Violet:
That you know of. It’s entirely possible that you know some adults who are on ADHD medication but don’t broadcast the fact because our culture denigrates people who need medical help for problems with their brain chemistry.
Violet
@Tenar Darell:
Well, there is this excellent ad about Republicans and budget cuts that AL linked in this post. Apparently Republicans are squealing about it, so you know it hit its target.
They could easily do a similar ad for czars.
Violet
@Roger Moore: True. Poorly worded on my part. I am not aware that adults I know use ritalin. They may and I don’t know about it.
Mnemosyne
@Violet:
It’s actually becoming quite common for women in their 40s and 50s to be newly diagnosed with it because when we were in school, girls “didn’t have” ADHD (partly because girls are socialized differently, and partly because inattentive type (i.e. daydreaming) is more common in girls) so we were never treated. Since it seems to be pretty highly inheritable, I’m guessing that at least some of those moms you know are either on Ritalin themselves or should be.
Roger Moore
@piratedan:
I think we do have Democrats who stand up and defend the things we spend our tax dollars on. It’s just that those speeches don’t get endlessly broadcast the same way Republican sound bites about the evils of taxation do. Some of that is that the media is in the tank for Republicans, but a lot of it is that our media focuses way too much on stories that can be compressed into 2 minutes, and that promotes snappy sound bites over intelligent, detailed policy.
gbear
I’m refinancing the house to get out from under the collection agency from hell that aquired my mortage when GMAC when under. I was supposed to close this evening but my mortgage broker discovered that $600 in fees got added to the cost of the refi when we cut $1000 off the mortgage amount. She found out after some digging that if we add $1.00 back onto the mortgage amount, the $600 in fees goes away. We rescheduled to monday so she could rewrite everything. I’m antsy to get this done but I like my broker even more now. She’s been great.
Tenar Darell
@Violet: That one from a PAC with some people in containment suits? Yeah, I get frustrated from those; it’s totally fair to use them in this environment, but it seems like the politicians won’t follow up on them when they’re chick full of valid criticism.
p.a.
@Howard Beale IV: I believe Nigeria is doing a decent job of containment with its limited resources. Hmmm. Oil producing African state yet with limited government resources. How does that work? The oil money must go somewhere.
jl
@Howard Beale IV: Thanks for the link on Presby Hospital of Dallas. Wikipedia says its parent company, Texas Health Resources, is currently non-profit. I’ve been trying to nail that down, though I’m not sure why I think it is so important, since profit status seems to make little difference in how these organizations act.
I noticed that the Presby Hospital websie was very coy about its profit status, and I remember no mention of its parent company. The website does admit that it is affiliated, associated or something with Texas Health Dallas, which apparently is a subsidiary of Texas Health Resources. Only indication I can find of association between THR and the hospital is in a copyright notice at the very bottom of the page, and a list of regional Texas Health subsidiaries.
The place wants to represent itself as part of some local network of health care providers when it is really part of a statewide chain. I think this kind of coyness is common in US health care and reeks of bad faith.
Tenar Darell
@Violet: dang, Chock full (sorry).
Violet
@Tenar Darell: This one has a whole bunch of Republicans saying “cut” over and over again. Sure there are people in containment suits but the sheer number of Republicans saying “cut” and the CDC people pointing out how cuts hurt is pretty dramatic. I’d love more like this ad.
Baud
@Tenar Darell:
Heh. I assumed “chick full” was a reference to Romney’s binders of women.
Roger Moore
@Tenar Darell:
This.
Violet
@Mnemosyne: Could be. And if they are on ritalin they might not share that.
shelley
Filed under the heading ‘Nothing ever changes,”
***
In all the recent Ebola hysteria, read some people actually wondering ‘could dogs and cats spread Ebola?’
Could only think, WTF?
********
Today I stumbled on a fun BBC series on youtube, ‘The Worst Jobs in History’ Goes thru medieval to the 19thc.
***
In the Tudor/Stuart episode, they cover the Great Plague (Bubonic) People were hired to kill stray dogs and cats, in the belief that they spread Plague. They didn’t of course. And the irony of course, is that they would have helped keep down the rat population, which were really a vector in plague.
Citizen_X
Right on, Scott Brown! Romney would have kept ebola out, all right. I mean, you don’t see ebola showing up in conservative states like Texas, do you?
Howard Beale IV
@jl: Here’s the kicker from Brill’s article:
Bjacques
I’m having a morning coffee a couple of miles down the Great Ocean Road from the Mad Max house, which is being renovated.
Tonight I will watch A Very Special Episode of Scrubs.
Tommy
@Roger Moore: My town is the highest taxed in the area. But we do really cool shit with the taxes. We pay people to create art for the town. Heck you can’t walk in any direction for a few blocks and not see a park. Green spaces everywhere. Funny thing we went from 5,500 in 2000 to 8,700 in 2010. Seems people want to come live here. Oh and we have good schools. We voted 57% for McCain (this is Illinois). 63% to raise our taxes, in the same election, to build a new $60M high school.
Tenar Darell
@Roger Moore: I am a total sucker for history factoids like this one on the B-17.
Johns Hopkins had an article about their new checklist app here. It points out that hasty checklist implementation is often combined with bad communication and inadequate safety culture. It’s interesting.
another Holocene human
Sheeeit, Anne Laurie, keepin it klassy on Balloon Juice. Oy gevalt.
another Holocene human
@Violet: ah, not exactly. Martha Coakley is a terrible person.
Ella in New Mexico
@Anne Laurie
Yep. pretty much what I told him earlier today. Here’s hoping he takes the advice as intended: with all due admiration, respect and affection. :-)
https://balloon-juice.com/2014/10/17/again-no-doubt-this-is-obama-and-the-cdcs-fault/#comment-5144753
Tenar Darell
@Violet: yep, that’s the one.
Tenar Darell
@Roger Moore: I am a total sucker for history factoids like this one on the B-17.
Johns Hopkins had an article about their new checklist app here. It points out some checklist implementation issues too.
AMinNC
@Trentrunner: You are exactly right about relevance. My mom and I were having this exact conversation today, and we find it inexplicable that every Democratic candidate and office holder isn’t shouting these facts from the rooftops. Democrats need to make a sustained case for the necessity of government, how it is the manifestation of the will of the people in ways corporations simply aren’t, and how, without it, the vast, vast majority of us are screwed.
We live in North Carolina, and Kay Hagan and all other red state or purple state Democrats can win with a progressive economic message and strong support for public education. Large majorities in every state love Social Security; they love Medicare; they love their local schools; they love clean water and air; they love untainted meat; they love bridges that don’t collapse. Remind them that those things ARE THE GOVERNMENT, and that one political party has committed itself to drowning our government in the bathtub.
Of course, as others have pointed out here, the rigged media environment makes it difficult for Democrats to get this message out even if they were inclined to spout it, but for God’s sake, make the damned case.
Violet
@AMinNC: If every Democrat decided to make the case for good government the media would have a hard time ignoring it. Every interview, every ad, every speech, every debate. Coordinated message about what government is and why it’s important. It’s not that hard to do. Democrats don’t want to do it. They’re scare it will be used against them. And it will unless they’re all doing it and making a smart case for it. Strength in numbers. Truth on their side.
A Humble Lurker
That’s kind of rich coming from you, Annie.
EriktheRed
@another Holocene human: How many lives did she ruin as prosecutor besides the one they made a movie about?
Tommy
@AMinNC: I have long conversations with my parents. They are liberals and don’t even seem to know it. But they vote Republican. It is what their parents did and I think a knee-jerk reaction. I turned my mom to our side and working on dad.
Aimai
@Violet: im doorknocking for her on sunday. She is a terrible candidate with zero charisma but that was true of her democratic male opponent too. Steve grossman looks like a dessicated mummy and sounds like a xombie.
Violet
@Aimai: How is it that MA is generally a Democratic state if their candidates are so terrible? Not Elizabeth Warren, obviously. But they couldn’t find someone reasonable to run for Governor? It’s a big state. Lots of people to choose from.
NotMax
Whoa, that was unduly and disproportionally harsh.
Have noticed a parallel relationship between a certain blog owner’s drinking and bigfooting, though.
As the newest Big Storm gets closer, sinuses, ear canals and arthritis are engaged in a cage match to determine which will most discomfit yours truly. Bet yer quatloos on yer favorite now.
FlipYrWhig
Only the party whose president had 9/11 happen on his watch and then ran the next two elections on Keeping Us Safe could try to pull some shit like this.
Ripley
Rick Perry ’16: He’s Tan, He’s Rested, He Gave Us All Ebola
Loneoak
@gbear: I would walk over coals for my mortgage broker since she basically swam through lava for us.
mdblanche
@chopper: You joke, but an epidemic establishing itself in India is perhaps the single biggest reality-based worry about Ebola.
AMinNC
@Violet: I agree with you – if there were a united front and a coordinated, constant drumbeat, the media couldn’t ignore it. In addition to the reason you cite for reluctance to make this case (fear it will be turned against them by GOP and their water-carriers in media), I also think so many candidates are so beholden to big moneyed interests, many Democrats are unwilling talk up government vis-a-vis private sector anything for fear of stopping the flow of campaign cash.
And Tommy, I think there are A LOT of people in this country who are liberals and don’t even seem to know it – in large part because that liberal case is not loudly and consistently being made. So tribal affiliation, or “it’s what my parents did” wins out. It is really, really sad. But at least you’ve had an effect on your mom. One by one by one is how it’s going to have to happen.
JPL
Why doesn’t Harry Reid immediately call for a vote on the Surgeon General.
wmd
I’ve been told that there was a likelihood of cross contamination in this study of aerosol transmission of Ebola from pigs to macaques. This article says that aerosol transmission between primates does not occur (also that pigs may have unique ability to infect).
Manyakitty
@Mnemosyne: I take Adderall twice a day. Sometimes I split my afternoon pill and take half at lunch and half a few hours later. The timed-released ones never worked for me.
It makes a difference. Wish I started it 20 years ago.
Tenar Darell
@NotMax: If it’s still allergy season where you are I bet sinuses. (Mine still flare up during big storms in spring and fall).
Smiling Mortician
Completely random OT thought with nowhere else to put it: Has anyone pointed out that all Allison Lundergan Grimes had to do when asked about her presidential vote was to ask the moderator who he voted for? That would have been a no-lose proposition. Either the moderator doesn’t have to answer (and then neither does ALG) or he answers and it’s Obama and she says “Me, too,” or he answers and says Mitt and she says, “Seriously?” and gets a laugh.
OK, maybe I didn’t think it all the way through. Also, I don’t live in Kentucky.
policomic
@A Humble Lurker: My thought, exactly.
Roger Moore
@JPL:
1) The Senate is on recess, except for pro forma sessions forced by the House to prevent recess appointments, until after the election.
2) He’d be stabbed in the back by Blue Dogs afraid of the NRA if he tried.
SligoRover
Seriously?
“throw a Jew down a well”?
Get a fucking clue, Anne.
Howard Beale IV
@mdblanche: If that happened, that would be ground zero for a major market meltdown-and travel restrictions wouldn’t even be debated.
WereBear
@Violet: How’d that jury thing work out?
Felanius Kootea
@p.a.: Easy. Swiss bank accounts.
NotMax
Unexpected candor from an unexpected source.
Excerpts from a speech today by the head of the Federal Reserve, Janet Yellen
ThresherK
Free “shred event” at local bank tomorrow. The 15 yrs of papers we have to shred, before we move, will severely test the “two box limit”. If you think of it, a refrigerator box is still “a box”.
PS First look at the Ottawa RedBlacks on teevee. The CFL has Calgary already, and I think one team wearing italicized serif numerals in black red and white is enough for a nine team league.
Davis X. Machina
@jl: Why don’t they just say ‘ni**er plague’ instead of “Ebola’?
Stan of the Sawgrass
TR
@A Humble Lurker:
Seriously. I still remember the first AL post I ever read here — it was some sort of unhinged rant about how all religious conservatives are secretly child-molesting, sister-fucking, wife-beating Nazi storm troopers. It was like reading a liberal version of Limbaugh. Laughably unhinged.
Violet
@WereBear: Got on the first panel of the day. Criminal court. Two hour or so voir dire. Didn’t get selected for the jury, thank goodness! Out by about 12:30, so not too bad overall. Long morning though. The bench seating in the courtroom was uncomfortable.
At least it wasn’t like the previous criminal case I was on the panel for. That one must have had something to do with rape (they didn’t tell us specifically what the charges were, unlike this time where they were very specific). During voir dire they actually asked potential jurors to stand up if they’d had “some experience with rape”. It was shocking. How many women who have had “some experience with rape” would feel comfortable standing up in a courtroom to identify themselves that way? Some would be okay with it but I’m sure many would not. There has to be a better way to find out people’s experiences with rape than that kind of tactic. I remember being really stressed out during that voir dire.
John Cole +0
@jl:
ARRRRGGH. I understand that. For example, Vinson was infected on the first flight to Cleveland, but she was not symptomatic. She was, however, symptomatic on the flight home, and now they are trying to figure out if in fact she was earlier than previously thought. It’s not rocket surgery.
And I think the source of the blame is as follows for the outbreak:
1.) Duncan, for bringing it here.
2.) The hospital, for fucking everything all up, not being ready, having according to reports, no procedures or protocol, no equipment, and having provided no prior training.
3.) The CDC, for not going in and basically taking over the hospital (so to speak) the moment we knew there was a patient. At the very least there should have been strict on the spot oversight.
4.) The very sad state of our for profit medicine, which is the root cause of why they were not trained.
I haven’t mentioned them, because it’s fucking blatantly obvious to everyone here.
What I blame Vinson for is being an idiot. The other nurse was self-monitoring, became symptomatic, and then checked in.
Vinson was self-monitoring, hopped on a plane to Cleveland, and then hopped on another one. The CDC should have told her not to fly, but she should have known better to not fly. She was self-monitoring, she knew how contagious it is, she was obviously concerned because SHE called the CDC multiple times, but then she got on the god damned plane anyway.
So now, we have shitloads of people in Ohio on lockdown, airlines scrambling to notify passengers on two flights, a cruise ship floating aimlessly off the coast of Belize because another hospital employee is on the ship and the CDC informed them (and that’s turning into an international clusterfuck because they aren’t even allowing him/her onto Belize to be airlifted out), and people freaking out anywhere.
It’s not burning a witch to point out that Vinson did something stupid here. Every single one of those nurses and physicians and hospital employees should KNOW better than to get on a plane right now, even if they are not told to stay off of them. It’s common god damned sense. Someone said I should wait for the science before saying this, which is just silliness. Duncan was infected, two people who handled him were infected. That, in the parlance, is a causal relationship, unless you want to claim those two nurses contracted Ebola at Arby’s.
Everything I’ve read about Vinson says that she is a super sweet and super nice person, and I bet you she agrees with me- she shouldn’t have gotten on that damned plane. She probably feels awful about it. But that doesn’t make her less of an asshole for doing it.
To make matters worse, I’d bet my eye tooth that the only reason she got on the plane and DIDN’T stay home would be because she had an unrefundable plane ticket and the hospital would probably fuck her over on vacation time. But she still got on the plane, and she shouldn’t have. I wouldn’t have. I bet most of you all wouldn’t have.
Now, because of all this, we’re going to listen to an increasing cacophony of stupid ideas and calls for travel bans, and real quarantines for anyone even remotely suspected of having ebola. Watch. That’s what is coming.
I mean really, was it too much to ask a handful of nurses and medical professionals to not go on cruises or airplanes for a couple weeks EVEN if they were not currently symptomatic? That’s really that outrageous?
And what happens if, heaven forbid, Vinson actually has infected someone else on the plane? What kind of nuttery do you think is going to happen then?
I’m not being unreasonable here. Until things calm down, the CDC should be making sure the several dozen nurses and medical staff are not loping around airports and bus terminals and football stadiums. Pay them triple overtime. Refund their tickets. Pressure the hospital to not screw them on vacation time. But just lay low for a while until we can tamp down this hysteria, because if taking your shoes off at an airport pisses you off (and it does me), you ain’t seen nothing yet. Especially not with our cable news and current political environment.
Not to mention, this would have to fucking happen during an election. Talk about timing.
Mike J
@John Cole +0:
It’s odd how many people here sound like Louie Gohmert calling it a war on women.
Crusty Dem
@wmd:
The “airborne ebola” papers are either a) looking at monkeys in adjoining cages (touching, grooming, etc) or b) looking at Reston ebola, an altogether different virus that appears to have some airborne properties. It also cannot infect humans. Thanks nature (nature nature, not Nature the journal – fuck those Limey bastards…)
John Cole +0
@NotMax: ? I don’t drink.
schrodinger's cat
Bain does not make anything, even weapons. They just liquidate companies that they buy for a song.
JPL
@John Cole +0: You know when someone becomes infected on the plane, I’ll say omg Cole was right but until then, I’m withholding judgement. She did what she was told. The CDC relied on Presby to do the right thing and guess what they didn’t.
guess what next time ebola hits our shores someone will fuck up..
Violet
@John Cole +0: As I pointed out in the previous thread, no one is calling for the staff at the other hospitals dealing with Ebola patients–Emory, the Nebraska hospital–to self-quarantine or stay home from trips. Because those hospitals are handling the patients properly.
The main problem is Dallas Presbyterian handled Duncan’s case poorly. Not prepared, protective equipment wasn’t protective enough and that doesn’t begin to address the accusations of the nurses about how poorly everything was done. Something sure s hell wasn’t done right because two nurses have contracted Ebola.
Anne Laurie
@Trentrunner:
Of course not. As you say. In our primate tribes, everything is politics — or, as one professor put it, “the question of who eats… and who gets eaten.”
We’ve upscaled our sociotechnology sufficiently, however, that we need to resist our first scream&run / hit-a-smaller-troop-member impulses to figure out what’s useful to panic about and who deserves to get blamed when something goes wrong.
Poopyman
@Tenar Darell: On film.
JPL
John, When a person is told that her protocols are safe and they aren’t, something is wrong. From what I read the suits were too big and they added tape. That means one additional thing to remove and that might be where the failure to contain the virus occurred.
Please stop questioning the health care workers because they are putting their lives on the line.
This is a cruel illness because it attacks those trying to contain it. I think only an idiot would criticize them for following what they were told.
Tenar Darell
@Poopyman: Oh wow. Thanks. My father will be so excited by these when I share.
chopper
@John Cole +0:
My issue with the nurse taking a flight is that she likely realized before how much of a shitshow her hospital is, and that by the administration leaving the nursing staff basically flying blind with a lack of training and proper equipment (to the point that her colleague utilizing the same equipment and training got infected), common sense dictates that there was a pretty realistic chance that she had been exposed to the virus as well.
We’re not talking about the staff at Emory or NIH or something. It’s like the hospital administration in Texas is trying to get he nursing staff sick.
jl
@John Cole +0: Thanks for a more nuanced view.
We still disagree about what is reasonable for health professionals to behave when operating under established protocols and after seeking advice from authorities who created or who are competent to evaluate how to observe protocols.
lamh36
@John Cole +0: @Anne Laurie:
Hey ya’ll, I sent an email to u both, but you may read this comment before you read the email.
But I got off from work a little over an hour ago and I’m just getting round to catching up on blog posts. I was working both days that John put up his post about health care workers.
So, with all this talk of Ebola and health care workers, of which I have been one for the past 10+ years, if ya’ll like, maybe you can put up a post concerning Ebola I would be willing to answer serious questions from commenters in the comments section to the best of my knowledge as an active Microbiology Medical Laboratory Scientist.
I don’t mind, and I plan to offer this to a few other blogs where I post. I figured when you have experienced knowledge about some subject, it always better to help spread factual information rather than allow misinformation to become embedded in the psyche.
Any questions, I cannot answer or that is outside my purview of knowledge, I can ask some of my other friends who are currently working in the hospital laboratory, CDC and beyond.
If you want to cool, if not, that’s cool too.
ETA: Nothing bout politics if I can help it, just use of my own personal experiences in the laboratory. I’ve worked both in public health, a major public hospital, a private hospital (sister hospital to Presby Dallas), Catholic hospital, and back now at public hospital owned by “private” company. All of which has been in the Microbiology laboratory. But I have friends and former coworkers who currently work is other parts of the lab, nursing, research lab
SiubhanDuinne
@Smiling Mortician:
Of course. Why aren’t you running for Senate in KY?
Tenar Darell
@Violet: I just saw this ad, with Bruce Braley in Iowa. Very good, especially that last line.
DanR2
@JPL: I don’t think anyone is questioning the commitment and bravery of the health care workers who put THEIR lives on the line.
However, were you sitting next to Vinson on the plane, JPL? Did you get a call from the CDC letting you know that–“oh, by the way, the person next to you was infected with the ebola virus, but she probably wasn’t contagious until 3 hours later, and it’s not her fault that she works for a poorly-run hospital. But watch for a fever and bleeding from your eyeballs.”
I’m seriously gobsmacked that anyone can NOT think the nurse should have had more sense about her own situtation than some clerk from the CDC who answered her phone call.
Violet
@lamh36: This would be very cool. I hope they take you up on it. Thanks for making the offer.
Tenar Darell
Here’s the Braley Link.
mdblanche
@Tenar Darell:
Because that isn’t true. Executive appointments are no longer subject to filibuster. The surgeon general appointment is being blocked by red state Democrats like Hagan and Pryor.
The basic problem here is most, not all but most, of the people living in red states are horrible people. America’s good people are disproportionately concentrated in a minority of states that are themselves not horrible people-free. If red state Democrats didn’t pull shit like this we wouldn’t have a Senate majority in the first place.
A lot of people here say defending all the government programs people like and benefit from is a surefire winner. I think they’re ignoring the elephant in the room: there are enough people out there who would vote with the anti-government side to give them the majority unless the benefits of government are denied to a list of groups that lately has also been called the Obama coalition. The biggest economic collapse since 1929 and the election of the first black president ever occurred at the same time. Which galvanized the bigger public response? What does that tell you?
And as angry as President Obama’s election made the Republicans in my life, his re-election made them much angrier. They are ready to burn the country down to take the rest of us down with them. Sabotaging public health programs and xenophobic demagoging about Ebola are exactly the type of shit they’re all about now. My prediction if they take control of the Senate is a constitutional crisis of some sort. They may even set one off even if they don’t take the Senate. How it would end I don’t know, but I would expect the executive and the legislature to effectively cease being equal branches of government and one to establish supremacy over the other in practice.
SiubhanDuinne
@John Cole +0:
Is that something the CDC can actually do? (I’m not saying they can’t, I’m saying I don’t know.)
Violet
@Tenar Darell: What ad? The one I linked? Or did you mean to link one?
Edit: Saw your update. It’s a good ad but I didn’t like the last line. Billionaires deserve a Senator too. Everyone does. But the average person needs to be represented. That’s what is not happening now.
lamh36
This is allegedly the story according to Darren Wilson!
Police Officer in Ferguson Is Said to Recount a Struggle
By MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT, MATT APUZZO and JULIE BOSMAN
JPL
@lamh36: What do you think Vinson was told about her danger boarding a plane? She was in touch with CDC and Presby daily. I know you can only speculate but I’m curious what you think.
@DanR2: Why? Was she told there was little risk because she followed protocol? We don’t know. We know now, that Presby didn’t follow protocol because they used level one clothing when someone was vomiting.
Anne Laurie
@lamh36:
I would LOVE to help you do this — if Cole doesn’t beat me to it! Will send you an email…
JPL
@SiubhanDuinne: They are doing it now. I do think that there was an expectation that hospitals would train health care workers and follow guidelines. Why they would have that expectation, I don’t know. The other day during the house hearing, several times, they mentioned the guidelines the CDC were sending out. Presby chose to ignore them.
NotMax
@John Cole +0
Precisely my point. As the drinking has gone away, so (seemingly) has the bigfooting.
Not espousing cause and effect, just parallelism, but one never knows.
lamh36
@JPL: I believe someone asked me this in one of the previous threads.
I personally handled infectious specimens literally 8 hours a day on the days I work. The hospital laboratory is HEAVILY regulated, I’d say more regulated than other parts of the hospital. If you asked a lab person, particularly someone in the Micro lab. they’ll tell you that we most def are the most regulated.
Unlike other parts of the lab, we not only handle infectious specimens, but we also culture and retain and keep active representations of the pathogenic organisms that we isolate and identify on a regular basis.
In the Micro lab, we rarely if ever have any patient interaction except when we circulate around the hospital for breaks and lunch and what not. So my experience comes from one of a worker who never really have to “see” patients unless I’m on my way in or out.
So I go home every day after handling these organisms.
Now I with Ebola, the Micro lab will probably be the primary lab that handle testing of Ebola specimens. But Ebola is no more infectious than any other specimen we can receive, except that handling of Ebola specimens mean more extensive PPE (Personal Protective Equipment). After which, I would still go home, I’d still drive in and out to work, but I’d probably NOT spend time out and about.
I would self-moniter like the Nurse was alleged to be doing, and if any symptom arises, I’d go into the hospital and try to keep as much “outside” contact down to a minimum.
In other words, unless I was symptomatic and or had some big crowded event to go to, then, I’d err on the side of caution.
But that may just be due to the fact that as Laboratorian, I am trained to be more aware and know the proper use of PPE and how to minimize infection.
To be honest, in the Micro lab. there is rarely a case of an infection from handling patient specimen unless there is some sort of lab accident or some breach of protocol. Because the lab already handles infectious specimens.
ETA: Sorry for the long response
FlyingToaster
@EriktheRed: Lessee, Fells Acres, at least two nannies, my next-door-neighbor (no kidding), etc.
When they illustrate “prosecutorial misconduct” in our encyclopedia, they have thumbnails of Martha Coakley and Carmen Ortiz.
Tenar Darell
@mdblanche: Yeah. I remember that it wasn’t just them. You’re right, it was both. I didn’t post one comment I had where I was trying out different talking points. Like point out that red state Dems and the Republicans are both really more afraid of the NRA than they are this virus. Or that Dr. Murthy was interested in reducing the number of gun deaths of x/year while only 1 man has ever died of Ebola in this country, and the whole current epidemic has killed less than half our annual number of firearm homicides.
But, that’s where I came in with my rant. Because these Dems are more afraid of the NRA even though they received no votes or endorsements from their stance. I started out with Kay Hagan and Mark Pryor talking about travel bans. Of course, they will not benefit from this either, they may only drive away the voters that they need to turn out and elect them.
JPL
@lamh36: Thanks. I do think that the nurses had some assurance they were safe and lived their lives that way. I’m a tad concerned because Emory has been quiet about Vinson, but truth be known they were quiet about the other patients they treated also. The only time we knew the conditions of the others were when they were released.
SiubhanDuinne
@JPL:
Thanks. I missed all that. In fact, I have missed a lot of news recently because while I’m doing poll watching I am prohibited from using any kind of electronic device* which means I can’t stream news coverage on my iPad.
*(They didn’t mention electric fans.)
Tenar Darell
@Violet: I thought of it as a little kicker at the end on Ernst’s going to kiss the Kochs’ rings at their annual conference. Wow, I am a news junkie.
FlyingToaster
@efgoldman: Also, Governor of Massachusetts is a fairly sucky job. The Lege has far more power (as Mittens found out).
You want real power, you want one of four offices:
Speaker of the House in the General Court
President of the Senate in the General Court
Secretary of the Commonwealth
Attorney General of the Commonwealth.
Coakley’s going for a demotion, here.
lamh36
@JPL: to be honest, all the information we have about these patients prior to this should all be suspect and should NEVER have come from the hospital.
The HIPAA laws are clear that ONLY patients and their providers, or health workers who are directly or indirectly involved (i.e. labs) in patient care should have access to a patients health records. If you are even caught looking at the record of a person who you have no direct or indirect contact with, you will be fired and you can be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
All this info that came from anyone other than hospital officials, is enough to warrant arrest or fine.
JPL
@lamh36: I know. The reason I cheering for Vinson is because of all the grief she is getting for traveling. If she knew, I’d feel differently.
When I lived in Dallas years ago, my doctor was at Medical City. My son was in Children’s for several days, so I have a lot of respect for that hospital.
Howard Beale IV
@lamh36: Get real, here-how many people/corporations actually get hammered for HIPPA violations?
JPL
@Howard Beale IV: Emory is respectful of the patients right. They are treating a patient with ebola that hadn’t even been mentioned on the national news until two days ago and I guess is ready to be released.
lamh36
@Howard Beale IV: they do when it a high profile case. Remember the time Dennis Quaid’s twins had some sort of medical issue and it made national news. Well the hospital actually did fire anyone who was found to have been in the record without having a direct patient care reason to be in it.
By law it should matter no matter the profile of the patient, but is definitely gets scrutiny if the patient is “high profile” enough to warrant alias’.
This “Ebola” patients are a good example of non-celeb high profile patients. Notice you haven’t heard “leaks” from from Emory or leaks from Nebraska or the other hospitals that housed possible Ebola patients.
The leaks so far have come from Dallas and nurses working at Dallas (and not even the nurses directly, they spoke through the nurses union).
I suspect the reason why you don’t hear of HIPPAA violaters much, is that majority hospital protocol is to terminate the employee and continually educate employees of what HIPPAA law is and examples of violations to the law.
Example: For hospitals that take care of prison patients, if you enter their hospital record, before you are even allowed to see the record, you have to “break the glass” which entails inputting your name and personal passcode and the HIS (Hospital Information System) logs a report of what time, what day and how long you were in the record. That;s after you have to input your username and passcode into any terminal to be able to even get into HIS/LIS (Laboratory Information System).
JPL
@lamh36: I can’t wait until you are on the front page and can answer our questions.
catclub
@Quaker in a Basement: I thought it was interesting to note that if a man recovers from Ebola, the virus will still be found in his semen for a long time.
catclub
@lamh36:
I thought researchers could work on Ebola and Marburg only in level 4 biosafety units.
Maybe that was smallpox.
Howard Beale IV
@lamh36: You just said the magic phrase-“High profile”.
“High Profile” leads to all sorts of things that tends to become ‘revenue enhancing’ and/or suppress negative press.
Gin & Tonic
@Howard Beale IV: I know people in hospital IT, and HIPAA is taken very seriously. People are fired for violations all the time.
peej
I’d like to know why everything is Obama’s fault and Rick Perry seems to be getting a pass from the media, etc.
lamh36
@catclub: true level 4 biosafety labs and hoods are required to manipulate or culture or test extremely contagious and virulent organisms like Ebola.
The patients do not go directly to public health labs like CDC and give blood or drop off specimens. The specimens come from laboratories around the country. Usually via the state public health lab and then on wards to CDC, or in cases of blood borne pathogens, sometimes they aren’t handled at all by State Public Health Labs they may be sent directly to CDC.
For example, a hospital that collect, identifies, and retain specimens that may be infectious with TB have at least a BSC 2 biosafety hood coupled with a negative pressure room that essentially cycles the air up and filters out a vent and minimizes aerosols release along with PPE when manipulating these specimens.
A BSC 2 hood is also what hospital labs use when preparing any specimen either for culture, testing or for packaging and shipping to State Public Health Labs or CDC.
catclub
@peej: I wonder that, too.
I also think that Obama should have said Vivek Murty – the Surgeon General nominee – is the Ebola czar, now confirm him.
catclub
@lamh36: Thanks!
AxelFoley
Scott Brown is ever the fool.
Violet
@peej: Because Rick Perry is a Republican and white.
Mnemosyne
@Howard Beale IV:
My spouse works for a home infusion company, and they have to report every PHI (personal health information) disclosure to the county, the state, and the feds. If they so much as send the wrong paperwork to the wrong patient, G has to file a report. Every. Single. Time.
Howard Beale IV
@Gin & Tonic: OK-they may be fired, but are they fired legitimately? Remember, for the majority of us working sitffs, we work in an ‘at will’ world-which means you can be terminated for any reason-and being sacked for violating HIPPA is just another at-will reason.
catclub
Does anyone have any insight into what other nations are doing vis a vis the Ebola freakout?
Since suddenly all the reporting is about the US, when it should be looking at West Africa.
The only indications that other nations are going just as irrational as the US: 1)Belize would not let the Hospital tech get off the cruise ship. 2)Mexico would not let the cruise ship dock at a port.
Any other tidbits? I saw the bits about schools closing in the US – in kind of unlikely places.
Gin & Tonic
@Howard Beale IV: I’m not sure what you mean by fired legitimately. The HIPAA policies and training for all hospital staff are quite clear, that violators are subject to immediate dismissal. Everybody who works in that kind of setting knows it by now, and controls are in place to log all such activity, as lamh36 pointed out above. Syslogs are forensic records. If you’re in a record that you have no clinical or administrative reason for being in, and the logs show that activity, you can be shown the door.
Violet
@lamh36: I worked in a biomedical facility where one of the buildings had been renovated. It was old and the previous design didn’t meet the more current needs. At some point one of the labs in the renovated area had a fire. It was at that point they found that the vent hood in that lab funneled into the women’s restroom. So for years all the hazardous chemicals and everything else they handled in that lab had gone into the women’s restroom. Safety first! I knew one of the people who had been in the lab during the fire so I got the story first hand. I know it’s true.
I also experienced renovation of a different building in the complex. During that renovation some of the fumes from substances they used were so strong we were unable to work and were told by our Occupational Safety folks to go home. Prior to that we made an effort to track down the source. The renovations were not happening near us. They were through a closed doorway and down two hallways. It vented into our offices. Our offices were mixed among labs, so who knows what else was in our offices.
I don’t have as much confidence in the safety and security of biomedical facilities after having that experience.
Howard Beale IV
@Mnemosyne: Smells like bad things happened in the past and that all parties want to make sure the people who are supposed to get the treatment are getting it.
Mnemosyne
@Howard Beale IV:
HIPAA Security: Harsh Fines, Penalties Are a Wake-up Call to Us All
UCLA Health System Settle Potential Violations of the HIPAA Privacy and Security Rules
I’m sorry, but you’re just wrong. HIPAA is taken very seriously by both states and the feds, and any hospital that blew off HIPAA violations would be subject to having their accreditation taken away. Have you ever even heard of the Joint Commission? Do you know what happens when they show up for a surprise inspection and start going through all of your files?
lamh36
@Howard Beale IV: When you start a job in any hospital. part of every orientation is a lecture on HIPAA violations and what constitutes it. You are quarterly sometimes monthly given inservices and self-study modules on HIPAA and any changes. If a high profile case happens elsewhere, you will received a new HIPAA study module. It is taken very seriously.
You are told at every turn that if you are shown to be consistently in violation of HIPAA laws you will be terminated…period.
So in theory, it is “at will”, but if you have not attempted to access the information, then you shouldn’t be approached about any violations.
Now that doesn’t mean someone couldn’t possibly access info under your username and passcode, but there are steps to avoid that that they stress to you. First and foremost, obviously don’t give/share you login information. 2)if you are logged into any computer terminal, log out of any computer if you have to walk away from your desk, 3)If you find that you have accessed the wrong record, then the LIS records how much time you have been in the record., so if you are in wrong record, you get out of it ASAP and no time has passed for you to violate HIPAA laws.
I cannot tell you of the number of HIPAA videos I have had to watch in my career, no matter how many times, I still have to watch each and everyone.
NotMax
@catclub
Both Nigeria and Senegal have (as of now) been declared free of Ebola after infected individuals were detected.
Howard Beale IV
@Mnemosyne: I deal with two entities far worse than your Joint Commission. Tell me, how often does the Joint Commission conduct such surprise audits? Do they dare publish when they do such stunts, let alone the results?
Howard Beale IV
@lamh36: If you think HIPPA is restrictive in access, try working in a commercial bank.
gwangung
@Howard Beale IV: Um, what’s the point here?
gwangung
@Howard Beale IV: Ah, a dick waving contest.
Carry on.
Howard Beale IV
@gwangung: Perform aerial intercourse in a torus-shaped perambulating-shaped pastry.
lamh36
@Howard Beale IV:
Umm…okay.
Well alrighty then, I’m off to bed folks, I am all of a sudden dead tired.
Peace out BJ.
Xenos
@Howard Beale IV: Ha! I have got that beat – try six months in prison per client disclosure. No civil or financial penalties, just imprisonment. Client secrecy (medical, legal, financial – any fiduciary relationship) is written into the criminal law.
elftx
to give an example of JC’s point this has happened
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2014/10/portland_maine_teacher_given_21-day_paid_leave_for_being_generally_proximate_to_ebola.php
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@John Cole +0:
Have you seen this open letter from his nephew?
Stop believing all the “facts” you read about this episode. We don’t know the facts about whether he knew he was possibly infected when he came to the US or not. A story at ThinkProgress said he was checked 3 times at the Liberia airport before he left and had no signs of symptoms. Why should he be blamed?
If anything deserves blame in this outbreak in Dallas, it’s not Duncan, it’s not the nurses, and it’s not the CDC. It’s the system and the management at that hospital. Emory and the hospital in Nebraska and Johns Hopkins has had no difficulty in treating Ebola patients without infecting others.
And it’s the WHO and the international health organizations that have apparently thought that “oh well, it’s just Ebola in Africa again; it’ll burn itself out like it always does”.
Yes, you’ve mentioned those things. But you continue to call the nurses and technicians names when in fact they’re victims.
How many other people at that hospital in Dallas should have stayed home when they had no symptoms? Everyone who worked there when Duncan was there? How do you know who should stay home or shouldn’t? Since it can take many days for symptoms to appear, how would the CDC or anyone else know? On what authority could the CDC take over and decide to keep people home? If people that Duncan lived with, who weren’t professionals, didn’t get infected, why should the CDC automatically assume that nurses who treated him should be in non-quarantine quarantine?
Don’t you see that you’re doing little more than blaming the victims here, even with your other criticisms?
The Crazies don’t need a reason to be upset and to scream and shout. Their reactions shouldn’t determine sensible policy (except, possibly, on the margins).
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who is willing to bet that none of the nurses or technicians infected anyone else.)
Mnemosyne
@Howard Beale IV:
Look, if you’ve never even heard of the Joint Commission, you should probably stop now before you really make an idiot of yourself.
It used to be known as JCAHO, if that helps give you a clue.
Hunter
Bain wouldn’t have weaponized Ebola — it would have sold off the parts and declared bankruptcy.
John Cole +0
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I never said he intended to bring it here. But he did. Whether he meant to or not, he is still to blame for bringing it here.
People leave their kids in the car accidentally and they die. Did they mean to or intend to? No. Are they still to blame? Yes.
I’m not piling on or trying to attack the guy, the poor bastard is dead and probably, were he alive, would feel horrible, but he still is to blame. Without Duncan, none of this happens.