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You are here: Home / Economics / C.R.E.A.M. / Open Thread: Vote Like Your Country Depends On It

Open Thread: Vote Like Your Country Depends On It

by Anne Laurie|  October 25, 20144:13 am| 140 Comments

This post is in: C.R.E.A.M., Don't Mourn, Organize, Open Threads, Vote Like Your Country Depends On It

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halloween rove

(Jeff Danziger’s website)

.
A countdown reminder from Professor Krugman, “Plutocrats Against Democracy“:

It’s always good when leaders tell the truth, especially if that wasn’t their intention. So we should be grateful to Leung Chun-ying, the Beijing-backed leader of Hong Kong, for blurting out the real reason pro-democracy demonstrators can’t get what they want: With open voting, “You would be talking to half of the people in Hong Kong who earn less than $1,800 a month. Then you would end up with that kind of politics and policies” — policies, presumably, that would make the rich less rich and provide more aid to those with lower incomes.

So Mr. Leung is worried about the 50 percent of Hong Kong’s population that, he believes, would vote for bad policies because they don’t make enough money. This may sound like the 47 percent of Americans who Mitt Romney said would vote against him because they don’t pay income taxes and, therefore, don’t take responsibility for themselves, or the 60 percent that Representative Paul Ryan argued pose a danger because they are “takers,” getting more from the government than they pay in. Indeed, these are all basically the same thing.

For the political right has always been uncomfortable with democracy. No matter how well conservatives do in elections, no matter how thoroughly free-market ideology dominates discourse, there is always an undercurrent of fear that the great unwashed will vote in left-wingers who will tax the rich, hand out largess to the poor, and destroy the economy…

And now you understand why there’s so much furor on the right over the alleged but actually almost nonexistent problem of voter fraud, and so much support for voter ID laws that make it hard for the poor and even the working class to cast ballots. American politicians don’t dare say outright that only the wealthy should have political rights — at least not yet. But if you follow the currents of thought now prevalent on the political right to their logical conclusion, that’s where you end up.

The truth is that a lot of what’s going on in American politics is, at root, a fight between democracy and plutocracy. And it’s by no means clear which side will win.

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140Comments

  1. 1.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    October 25, 2014 at 4:43 am

    there is always an undercurrent of fear that the great unwashed will vote in left-wingers who will tax the rich, hand out largess to the poor, and destroy the economy…

    The crashes of 1873, 1929 and 2007 were caused by being nice to the poor…right.

    Can anyone point out to any instance in a western democracy there were economic problems caused by socialism? Every economic crises I am aware of was caused by the stupid greed of the rich.

  2. 2.

    Hal

    October 25, 2014 at 4:50 am

    Blech. Made the mistake of reading the comments under the Ebola article at NY Times. Hint: if someone starts off a comment with “common sense should tell you” or “it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know” or “Obviously…” you know you’re about to read some grade a BS.

    Cuomo and Christie’s double teaming effort followed up with their don’t panic! reeks of political desperation and pandering. Remember folks, Christie isn’t an economist, so don’t ask him about the minimum wage. He isn’t a scientist, so don’t bother asking him about climate change. But Ebola? Pull up and chair and he’ll tell you all about it.

  3. 3.

    Baud

    October 25, 2014 at 5:14 am

    there is always an undercurrent of fear that the great unwashed will vote in left-wingers

    If only.

  4. 4.

    raven

    October 25, 2014 at 6:06 am

    If I am not mistaken this is THE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION EVAH!!!!!!!!!!

  5. 5.

    Tommy

    October 25, 2014 at 6:07 am

    @Baud: When I got out of grad school and started my first real job it was the last year or so of Bush I. For the next nine years I read the NYT, Washington Post, and NYT each day. They were on my office desk each morning. I even lived in DC. But to a large extent I didn’t pay that much attention to politics. With Clinton in office for two terms, things just seemed to hum along at a pretty brisk pace and well, thing/government seemed to work pretty well.

    Now bear with me ….

    Each year I got a nice raise. A bonus. My benefits were not Cadillac, more like a Porche 911.Then the tech bubble, Bush II, 9/11, invasions and hell broke lose in my life. Lost my job. Lost my benefits.

    Since I was 18 I always voted, and always voted Democratic, but if you bring the 1995 me here I’d be called a “Blue Dog.”

    I found out that yes who we elected matters a lot more than I realized. It took me more then a decade to get back to where I was when Bush II was elected. And as that time has passed that old rule, you get more conservative as you get older, well I went the total other way. I am getting more and more liberal with each passing day.

    I know work for campaigns. Give money. Heck next election cycle I will even have a business trying to help liberals, at the local level, win elections.

    Don’t know why I just wrote all that, but my insomnia is in full swing, parents in town, and just wishing they’d wake up sooner rather than later so we can go out for a big breakfast.

    Oh and happy Saturday everybody.

  6. 6.

    JPL

    October 25, 2014 at 6:24 am

    @Baud: That’s an important point. Names that you might have heard of in GA are Representative Paul Broun and Gingrey. Those representatives achieved higher office because the 47 percent vote for them. They are just the right kind of 47 percent.

  7. 7.

    beth

    October 25, 2014 at 7:14 am

    I got a recall notice on one of our cars from GM about the ignition problem they have. Hasn’t this been in the news for almost a year by now? And haven’t people died because of this? You would think there would be some sense of urgency but no. When I called my local (and only) GM dealer he told me he’s got a 700-800 person backlog and it could be two months before I can get the repair done. I guess I should try not to die until then. From what I see on the news they’re pulling the same shit with this new airbag problem too.
    Yes, what this country really needs is less corporate regulation and responsibility.

  8. 8.

    Tokyokie

    October 25, 2014 at 7:19 am

    I hear people who should know better succumbing to the ooga-booga-scary-scary hysteria of the 24-hour news cycle, and know that they will, against their interests, vote Republican. And I know doing so is against their interests because they are not billionaires. They will, with straight faces, say that Obama is an utter incompetent, but to my knowledge, he has not fomented the most disastrous American foreign-policy blunder since World War II, watched disinterestedly as a major American city drowned, nor presided over the worst economic collapse since the Great Depression. Yet it is Obama who has wrecked the country. The stupidity, entitlement, and racism (and yes, those are not mutually exclusive traits) of those who have formed such opinions is astounding.

  9. 9.

    ThresherK

    October 25, 2014 at 7:21 am

    To all and sundry BJers: Thanks to those whose good wishes I carried back to my wife and mother-in-law sometime in the week before last.

    My mother-in-law was fully sentient and in ICU when we had all the difficult conversations and she made the DNR decision. Back in 2009, she saw her husband on life support for a year, was determined not to have that happen to her.

    She died last Saturday morning, October 18th. She was 92.

    (And so my scarcity in these parts the last week. Plus we’re moving. And did I mention my wife was assaulted by a client at work and has to deal with workers’ comp and physical therapy?)

    My wife is as distraught as you can imagine. After seeing her lose her grampa, dad and mother in 11 years, I am now determined to outlive her, simply because she’s a wonderful person who shouldn’t have to go through this process again.

  10. 10.

    satby

    October 25, 2014 at 7:24 am

    @Tokyokie: here, here. And they hate being called racists, but that’s what they are.

  11. 11.

    beth

    October 25, 2014 at 7:25 am

    @ThresherK: Wow. My condolences on all of your troubles. May 2015 be a much better year for us all.

  12. 12.

    satby

    October 25, 2014 at 7:25 am

    @ThresherK: Condolences to you and your wife on your loss. 92 is a fine long life, May she rest in peace now.

  13. 13.

    satby

    October 25, 2014 at 7:29 am

    @beth: I hope 2015 is better for all of us, I lie awake nights worrying about how I’m ever going to catch up to all the bills I fell behind on! Your lips to FSM’s noodly orifice!

  14. 14.

    ThresherK

    October 25, 2014 at 7:34 am

    @beth: It’s actually compressed into the space of about two months. But when I think I’m having it tough, I remind myself that these are more my wife’s troubles, she’s got it worse than I do, and I’m here to unload her weight. That keeps me centered.

    (Jeez, I really am not that corny sounding a person! I am usually glib about trivial things and stoic about important things.)

  15. 15.

    JPL

    October 25, 2014 at 7:38 am

    @ThresherK: It sounds like you are doing a good job. I hope the company axed the client.

  16. 16.

    Debbie(aussie)

    October 25, 2014 at 7:40 am

    @ThresherK:
    I am so sorry for all the stress in your life. My condolences to your wife and you on loss of her mother. It was a brave decision she made.
    Good luck with move, may it go smoothly. And to your wife, take care of your health, hope the compo claim will be as straight forward as possible.

  17. 17.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    October 25, 2014 at 7:49 am

    @ThresherK: You (and she) have a lot on your shoulders. Condolences. Take care of each other.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  18. 18.

    Baud

    October 25, 2014 at 7:50 am

    @ThresherK:

    That’s too much to deal with all at once. Very sorry about your loss.

  19. 19.

    Baud

    October 25, 2014 at 7:52 am

    @Tommy:

    I also get more liberal as I age. I like to think that’s because I continue to gain knowledge and experience.

  20. 20.

    ThresherK

    October 25, 2014 at 7:56 am

    @JPL: I’m sorry to confuse folks, but my wife is a social worker, and this was in an assisted living place. Different sort of “client”, so there’s no “axing” to be done.

    This is a building full of older people in various needs of all the things the elderly need, including health services, and social work services. It’s not a psych ward. (And that’s one reason she likes working there. We know many social workers, and working in psych ward is incredibly, almost indescribably draining.)

    The thing is, it’s not like it was anything on TV: He’s not a “loner, keeps to himself”, it wasn’t a standoff where someone had to be talked proverbially down, there was no weapon, he wasn’t in some stressed situation where he got bad news or was refusing to take his medication or anything.

    The assailant is about linebacker-sized, was friendlily greeting her on passing in the elevator, and simply struck her on the back of her neck/shoulder. He’s developmentally delayed, and may simply not know his own strength.

    It’s not like my wife is going to be cast in the next Charlie’s Angels movie as the “mentor Angel from the 70s” (think Kate Jackson), but when I think of her being of “a certain age” and vulnerable to violence, and looking every bit as physically intimidating as a 5’3″ social worker would be, or where the three offices her agency has are located, I didn’t think “workplace violence” would happen to her this way.

  21. 21.

    Betty Cracker

    October 25, 2014 at 8:15 am

    @ThresherK: Man, that’s a lot to deal with — good thing you and your wife have each other. Here’s hoping for a better 2015.

  22. 22.

    WereBear

    October 25, 2014 at 8:19 am

    @ThresherK: Yep. My husband lost 5 close relatives in the past less-than-a-decade. My sympathies.

  23. 23.

    Fred

    October 25, 2014 at 8:25 am

    The conservatives are the Tories. You know, the guys we kicked out of power in the Revolution. They never really went away ’cause we didn’t do what the French did and guillotine them back then.
    Oh well, a missed opportunity that. But as our president says, we must look forward. Then again, a guy can daydream.

  24. 24.

    Schlemazel

    October 25, 2014 at 8:30 am

    I believe we are going to do our part here in Minnesota. We will be returning Democrats to office at the state level including Senator Franken. From the numbers I have seen I don’t expect any change in the 5/3 D/R split in Congress.

    But my dark force is telling me we are going to lose the Senate. I have tried to remain positive because of the early voting numbers & the (usually mistaken) belief that this time the casual voters understand the pain of not bothering to vote but the numbers don’t lie and a lot of the whistling past the graveyard I hear sounds too much like “true the vote” bullshit. I cannot imagine the horrors we have in store for us as a nation if this happens.

  25. 25.

    MomSense

    October 25, 2014 at 8:35 am

    @ThresherK:

    Something similar happened to me with a student years ago. He didn’t realize what he was doing and it came out of nowhere. I felt really vulnerable after that so I can imagine that the stress of moving plus grieving and physical recovery is a heavy load for your wife. It is a heavy load for you, too. I hope you both can heal and regain your strength. I will keep you both in my thoughts and send some virtual hugs to you.

  26. 26.

    OzarkHillbilly

    October 25, 2014 at 8:35 am

    End class warfare. Kill the rich.

    @ThresherK: Stay strong.

  27. 27.

    ThresherK

    October 25, 2014 at 8:35 am

    @WereBear:
    @Betty Cracker:
    @Baud:
    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
    @Debbie(aussie):
    @JPL:
    @satby:
    @beth:

    Thanks to all.

    I really should try to get to the next Boston metro meetup.

    PS Did I mention she knows her way around the workers’ comp because their cleaning staff didn’t dry the tile floor properly back in June outside the cafe? I suggested at the time she go to an open tryout for the WNBA and steal someone’s knee brace from a locker.

  28. 28.

    ThresherK

    October 25, 2014 at 8:37 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    @MomSense:

    Thanks to you both. (And I think I put enough reply tags in my other thank-you to go into moderation.)

  29. 29.

    Tokyokie

    October 25, 2014 at 8:51 am

    @satby: They don’t want to be lumped in with the cross-burning KKK-types, because those yokels are just too gauche, but when I point out that support for voter ID measures is on a spectrum with support for Jim Crow and apartheid, they become apoplectic. Guess it’s difficult to maintain the self-delusion of being a good person when your embrace of evil is rubbed in your face.

    @ThresherK: I am sorry to hear of your difficulties and hope things turn around in your life in the near term.

    @Baud: I think what irks me the most about about probable Texas Gov. Greg Abbott is that despite suffering the hardship of paralysis, he does not seem to have gained the slightest wisdom and empathy from the experience, instead becoming less tolerant and sympathetic. And frankly, that’s evidence of a truly horrible character.

  30. 30.

    WereBear

    October 25, 2014 at 8:57 am

    @Tokyokie: And frankly, that’s evidence of a truly horrible character.

    And those of people who vote for him.

  31. 31.

    mai naem

    October 25, 2014 at 9:04 am

    @ThresherK: Condolences on your MIL passing. Sorry about your wife. I’m glad she doesn’t have any permanent physical injuries.

    I have a friend who worked in a nursing home who got her one front tooth knocked out by a patien(lil ole lady.) There was an issue with her other front tooth that became worse with the attack and the facility actually gave her a hard time about getting two crowns. I think she ended up paying for the second one herself. Anyhow, what I learned from that is you never never stand right in front facing a psych/demented patient .
    @Schlemazel: I have a bad feeling about the senate too.Montana was a stupid loss. I am po’d at the old fart senators who couldn’t stick around for one more term or even a few more years and then resign when the Dems had a better map/demographics. Most of them have family who are involved in lobbying so its not like they haven’t made money for their family from their career. Really really disgusted at Tom Harkin who I always thought was one of the good guys.

  32. 32.

    SiubhanDuinne

    October 25, 2014 at 9:11 am

    @WereBear:

    WereBear, I was sorry to learn that James Bond’s age and infirmities finally caught up with him. I know you all miss him. How are the other kitties doing? Has Tristan explained it all to Mithy?

  33. 33.

    Lurking Canadian

    October 25, 2014 at 9:24 am

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: the sort of “vote ourselves into bondage” bullshit they pretend to be afraid of has never happened, or even come close to happening. You could make an argument that at least part of the economic malaise of the 1970s was due to misapplied economic interventions, but even then, it’s debatable.

  34. 34.

    WereBear

    October 25, 2014 at 9:26 am

    @SiubhanDuinne: Thank you so much for your condolences. Turns out, James was beloved by many of my fans, and it is quite touching how many considered him their Celebrity Cat :)

    Tristan is depressed, as is James’ protege, Olwyn. It’s actually Mithy who is cheering everyone up… which is, I believe, Mr WereBear’s intentions back in May, when we got the kitten suddenly! out of the blue!

    Mr WereBear is very sweet and wise. We are doing okay.

  35. 35.

    MomSense

    October 25, 2014 at 9:29 am

    @WereBear:

    Oh no! I missed the news about James. So sorry, WereBear. Hugs to you and the Mr. and skritches to your kitties.

  36. 36.

    d58826

    October 25, 2014 at 9:30 am

    Our Congress in action yesterday:
    EBOLA ===> the sky is falling in and we are all going to die
    Gun violence (at least 4 more dead yesterday) ===> ……………………..hmmm even the crickets have left the building.

    While I lean in the better safe than sorry direction, I’m not sure the quarantine really makes us any safer. Based on the comments from a number of aid groups that send medical people to West Africa they usually volunteer for a month using vacation time. Adding an additional 21 days to that tour would be a real financial hardship for a lot of people. To say nothing of would their employer keep the job open for an additional 21 days? There are federal laws that require an employer to give a returning reservist/guardsman his job back and those laws are being violated. I really wonder how many companies will extend the 21 days with pay unless they are forced to.

  37. 37.

    WereBear

    October 25, 2014 at 9:35 am

    @MomSense: Thank you. He was over 18; ninety one in human years. So we saw it coming.

    Adorable pics of Jamesy at link!

  38. 38.

    chopper

    October 25, 2014 at 9:35 am

    @ThresherK:

    working in psych ward is incredibly, almost indescribably draining

    my wife works in psych hospitals. it takes a special kind of person to do that, because otherwise it’ll suck out your own will to live after a while.

  39. 39.

    Southern Beale

    October 25, 2014 at 9:45 am

    I already voted, last week. Early voting has started here.

    We have a constitutional amendment on the books related to abortion, Amendment 1. A yes vote means the state legislature could pass more restrictive laws that would effectively eliminated women’s access to abortion services.

    And already some voters are saying our electronic voting machines have changed “no” votes to “yes.”

  40. 40.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    October 25, 2014 at 9:49 am

    @chopper: Indeed, that’s a very tough job. It must be hard on you as well. Thank her from this end of the ‘tubes. Support each other.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  41. 41.

    Linnaeus

    October 25, 2014 at 9:54 am

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    Can anyone point out to any instance in a western democracy there were economic problems caused by socialism? Every economic crises I am aware of was caused by the stupid greed of the rich.

    No western democracy has ever actually been socialist, so there aren’t any.

  42. 42.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 25, 2014 at 10:03 am

    I voted yesterday. It was around noon and there was a steady line of 15-20 people the whole time I was there. Since I am in Madison, I had a pretty good feeling that the vast majority of those in line were not there to vote for Walker and company.

  43. 43.

    Amir Khalid

    October 25, 2014 at 10:05 am

    @WereBear:
    I’m so sorry to hear about James Bond’s passing. No words, just {{{hugs}}}.

  44. 44.

    skerry

    October 25, 2014 at 10:06 am

    Disappointing ruling from DC Circuit Court on Minisink compressor station in Orange County, NY. Another win for big energy and a defeat for citizens and neighborhood around the station. Some homes are as close as 650 ft.

    We are sorry to announce that our final appeal to the D.C. Circuit Court has been denied. Though this decision is not surprising it is none the less disappointing. We can only conclude that both our regulatory and legal system are completely broken. That a court one step below the supreme court can render a decision without addressing any of our substantive arguments is a serious indictment of the judges, court , and process. We say again that this facility does not belong in a residential community, is not needed, and finally will further worsen global warming and our regional environment.

    Your vote counts. Judges matter.

  45. 45.

    catpal

    October 25, 2014 at 10:08 am

    @WereBear: sorry for your loss of James, very nice tribute page.
    Looking for cat travel advice. What to do for the cat to travel 8 hours by car? I have never traveled that far with a cat. I know she will meow a lot – she does not like being in the car at all but that is only short drive to vet. Any advice will be appreciated.

  46. 46.

    skerry

    October 25, 2014 at 10:14 am

    @WereBear: I am so sorry for your loss. We lost our dear Roxy earlier this year and her friend and sister, Zoey, still hasn’t adjusted. Zoey is also a senior cat and just can’t seem to figure it out. I wish you and yours the best.

  47. 47.

    chopper

    October 25, 2014 at 10:17 am

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    it’s not really hard on her at all. then again, she loves what she does and she’s damn good at it.

    now, if she’s still at this hospital 10 years from now, she may have a different opinion.

  48. 48.

    Howard Beale IV

    October 25, 2014 at 10:26 am

    @catpal: Ask the vet for a prescription for acepromazine.

  49. 49.

    WereBear

    October 25, 2014 at 10:29 am

    @Amir Khalid: {{{hugs}}} gratefully accepted.

  50. 50.

    Gex

    October 25, 2014 at 10:34 am

    @ThresherK: There are things in life that just demand sincerity. These are such things. I sounded really cornball a lot around when my partner died.

    Condolences to you and your wife. Hope you guys get a nice turn at the positive side of the pendulum that is life soon.

  51. 51.

    WereBear

    October 25, 2014 at 10:39 am

    @catpal: What to do for the cat to travel 8 hours by car?

    There aren’t many tricks to pull when the cat knows their entire environment is changing, and they hate that. But here’s a technique where we shrink their territory down, and then expand it again, which can help.

    Can you talk to the vet about sedation? Any idea how well she responds to such? This can be a good way of handling the actual time in the car.

  52. 52.

    pluege

    October 25, 2014 at 10:44 am

    Conservatives MAke Clean Things Dirty:

  53. 53.

    MomSense

    October 25, 2014 at 10:48 am

    @catpal:

    I know she will meow a lot – she does not like being in the car at all

    Sounds like the Romney solution would work well in this case unless what you want is helpful and good advice.

  54. 54.

    catclub

    October 25, 2014 at 10:54 am

    @beth:

    I guess I should try not to die until then.

    So this means making your keyring as light as possible – NO other keys hanging off the ignition key while driving.
    Have you done that?

  55. 55.

    M31

    October 25, 2014 at 10:55 am

    I call bullshit on this:

    “there is always an undercurrent of fear that the great unwashed will vote in left-wingers who will tax the rich, hand out largess to the poor, and destroy the economy…”

    The thing they’re afraid of is doing all that stuff because it will HELP the economy and the majority of the people in it.

  56. 56.

    catclub

    October 25, 2014 at 10:57 am

    Read The last few paragraphs of this article – (warning New Republic – and a lot more verbose than it needs to be )-
    they are suddenly a very familiar story. As usual, as Charlie Pierce says, it is never about race.

    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116919/big-lie-haunts-post-crash-economy

  57. 57.

    Chris

    October 25, 2014 at 11:03 am

    @Lurking Canadian:

    The idea that any society has ever spent anywhere near enough money on the poor to go bankrupt… is adorable.

  58. 58.

    Villago Delenda Est

    October 25, 2014 at 11:06 am

    The actual “takers” in this society are parasites like Mitt Romney and their minions, such as Paul Ryan.

    Eradicate the parasites.

  59. 59.

    beth

    October 25, 2014 at 11:09 am

    @catclub:

    So this means making your keyring as light as possible – NO other keys hanging off the ignition key while driving.
    Have you done that?

    Of course but they’ve known about this for what, a year? And had how many deaths because of it? Why aren’t the parts to fix it readily available? Since I just got my recall letter, I am assuming they’re doing the recall in stages. It should follow that they’re making the parts in stages too. It’s ridiculous.

  60. 60.

    Ruckus

    October 25, 2014 at 11:10 am

    @catclub:
    That is a good tip. I’ve done this ever since I started driving as my mom used to have what looked, to a little kid, like 100 keys on her keyring. Of course it wore out the lock and the car wouldn’t start until it got replaced. So the most keys on any one ring is now 2. If the car has a remote(nothing I can afford to own now has!) then the remote and the key.

  61. 61.

    WereBear

    October 25, 2014 at 11:11 am

    @Villago Delenda Est: Yes. The Big Lie is that they “contribute” anything.

  62. 62.

    beth

    October 25, 2014 at 11:11 am

    @Ruckus: What they’re telling me in the recall letter is to remove even the remote and just use the key alone. That’s a pain in the ass which I will gladly do but damn, they’ve had so long to fix this shit.

  63. 63.

    Davis X. Machina

    October 25, 2014 at 11:12 am

    @M31:

    I call bullshit on this:

    “there is always an undercurrent of fear that the great unwashed will vote in left-wingers who will tax the rich, hand out largess to the poor, and destroy the economy…”

    The fear in the undercurrent of fear is real, even if its object is not.

  64. 64.

    Jay C

    October 25, 2014 at 11:16 am

    @catpal:

    Basically what WereBear said @ #50: if this is a one-time, one-way trip, you might want to think about some mild sedation for the cat: 8 hours is quite a while for a displaced house-beast to have to deal with (no food, water, litter, etc., strange, moving environment). And some cats just never get used to traveling. We take ours (3 Himalayans) from City to country only if we’re going to stay a while – they just sit in the back of the SUV and doze out, usually. But then, that’s seldom more than 3 hours anyway: and they are going from one familiar environment to another. Best to consult wit a vet in any case.

  65. 65.

    Ruckus

    October 25, 2014 at 11:17 am

    @beth:
    There really is only so much mfg that they can call on to make new parts and it only works so fast. They also had to redesign all the crappy work they did before and fit it into the places they have to fit into. It isn’t as easy as it sounds. As well a lot of the production is done by subcontractors now, which can add another whole level of time involved as there is now design, quoting, awarding of contracts, production….
    Not that any of this makes your situation any better but the single key thing most likely will help.

    ETA I would hope that they also are trying to make the whole mess actually better as well, not just throwing a new, untested part at your car, hoping to make it better.

  66. 66.

    catclub

    October 25, 2014 at 11:20 am

    @beth:

    And had how many deaths because of it?

    I think about 14 over 10 years. Or half a days worth of gun fatalities. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

  67. 67.

    Frankensteinbeck

    October 25, 2014 at 11:21 am

    The 1% who don’t want the poor to vote remain only 1%. The 49%+1 they need to get their way in America want to crush the poor because they think the poor are black. Really, Krugman, ‘voter ID fraud’ is just Jim Crow. The GOP is desperate enough to try to hit a few white-but-Democratic demographics around the edges, like students, but it’s aimed squarely at minorities and they’ve admitted it a few times.

    @Linnaeus:
    The only large scale attempt at real communism I can think of was the Cultural Revolution in China. It was a ‘mass famine with 100 million deaths’ style disaster.

    @Tokyokie:

    they become apoplectic

    Even among racially progressive whites it’s overwhelmingly taboo to call anyone racist. The social construct Reagan got the country to eagerly embrace was that racism is agreed to be unacceptable, and everyone (white) agrees that only people who use the word ‘nigger’ are racists. There is a huge amount of emotion backing this taboo, including seething resentment among the even moderately racist that they have to police themselves in any way.

  68. 68.

    schrodinger's cat

    October 25, 2014 at 11:23 am

    @catpal: Not Wearbear, but a veteran of many moves with the kittehs. Take frequent breaks, also stop for the night at pet friendly motel. They seem to yowl much more after twilight.

  69. 69.

    The Raven on the Hill

    October 25, 2014 at 11:25 am

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: Greece. But only Greece, and that’s a special case.

  70. 70.

    catclub

    October 25, 2014 at 11:29 am

    The updated value is now 29 deaths – one day of gun fatalities. Over 10 years = 3650 days.

    The present death rate in auto vehicles (including those with faulty ignition switches) is so low, that if you drove 60mph 24/7/365, your life expectancy due to driving would be longer that the average life expectancy in the US.

  71. 71.

    catpal

    October 25, 2014 at 11:31 am

    @MomSense: ouch. what a horrible man who should never have a pet.
    thanks all I will ask the vet about sedation. She is already pretty anxious about the packing up everything although all of the boxes are entertaining for a short time.

  72. 72.

    The Raven on the Hill

    October 25, 2014 at 11:31 am

    Links for donating and volunteering in critical Senate races.

    Also, phone banking links: MoveOn.org and Democracy for America.

    And, Sam Wang’s Princeton Election Consortium for polls and projections, so one doesn’t have to deal with Nate Silver’s crankery.

  73. 73.

    Ruckus

    October 25, 2014 at 11:33 am

    @Frankensteinbeck:
    That we never really addressed racism but ronnie tried to put a nice bow on it is his worst legacy. That we have a pretty good portion of our country willing to move on and elect a black man president is a good sign. That of course is mitigated by the nearly half the country that is, at what ever level, racist. And that we have gone so far down the rabbit hole that ronnie started(well at least gave a hard shove), I’m not sure we can climb back up. Is a shame too, this could be a nice experiment about governing. Of course experiments do fail.

  74. 74.

    The Raven on the Hill

    October 25, 2014 at 11:38 am

    My links post for places you can go to help, especially phone-banking for GOTV, which can be done by people outside critical states, is visiting the moderators. So, meantime, if you search for “Princeton Election Consortium” that gets you Sam Wang’s useful polling site, “DFA dialer” will take you to Democracy for America’s phone-banking site, and “MoveOn Voters Rising” will take you to MoveOn.org’s phone banking site.

  75. 75.

    Davis X. Machina

    October 25, 2014 at 11:46 am

    @Ruckus: It’s F=MA all over again.

    The people who elected Obama twice are nice people, mostly, with busy lives, and no real figtht to pick with the world most days, even when they have every reason to pick that fight. Huge mass, low acceleration.

    And then there’s a smaller bunch of people, many of them not-nice, who see their world being disassembled, things that they thought they could count on changing, and boy do they have a fight to pick with the workd every day — even though it isn’t real. The ones who will crawl over broken glass to preserve their position, and who will gladly ditch the whole experiment in self-government to preserve it. The stand-at-Armageddon-and-do-battle-for-the-Lord brigade.

    Low mass — high acceleration.

    I’ve been pressing Doug Muder’s “Not a Tea Party, A Confederate Party” on everyone I know.

    During last fall’s government shutdown and threatened debt-ceiling crisis, historian Garry Wills wrote about our present-day Tea Partiers: “The presiding spirit of this neo-secessionism is a resistance to majority rule.”

    The Confederate sees a divinely ordained way things are supposed to be, and defends it at all costs. No process, no matter how orderly or democratic, can justify fundamental change.

    When in the majority, Confederates protect the established order through democracy. If they are not in the majority, but have power, they protect it through the authority of law. If the law is against them, but they have social standing, they create shams of law, which are kept in place through the power of social disapproval. If disapproval is not enough, they keep the wrong people from claiming their legal rights by the threat of ostracism and economic retribution. If that is not intimidating enough, there are physical threats, then beatings and fires, and, if that fails, murder.

  76. 76.

    Frankensteinbeck

    October 25, 2014 at 11:46 am

    @Ruckus:
    Yes, the reason it’s blowing up *is* because the country has moved a lot, and the overwhelming dominance the racists felt they had has been reduced to just enough power to execute an ‘If I can’t have it, no one can’ strategy. So there’s that.

  77. 77.

    catclub

    October 25, 2014 at 11:49 am

    @Davis X. Machina: Thanks! Going to read it right now.

  78. 78.

    MomSense

    October 25, 2014 at 12:06 pm

    @catpal:

    I hope you know I was just kidding!! That one disturbing event was disqualifying for a babysitting job let alone serving as POTUS. IMO.

  79. 79.

    Brian R.

    October 25, 2014 at 12:10 pm

    @raven:

    Well, you’re usually mistaken.

    Also, you’re usually an asshole.

    Thanks for keeping both streaks alive.

  80. 80.

    raven

    October 25, 2014 at 12:12 pm

    @Brian R.: Fuck you punk. As long as I stay an asshole to sissy fuckers like you I’m happy. Chew on that shit.

  81. 81.

    Ruckus

    October 25, 2014 at 12:14 pm

    @Davis X. Machina:
    @Frankensteinbeck:
    I like the looking at it as a F=MA problem. You could say the same about the 1% as the racists or the misogynists, of course that gives some overlap in the A part.
    A could also stand for Asshole and the theorem is still valid.

  82. 82.

    catpal

    October 25, 2014 at 12:15 pm

    @MomSense: i laughed. that horrible image never forgotten to remember romney as a horrible lack of human being.

  83. 83.

    Anoniminous

    October 25, 2014 at 12:18 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    tl;dr history of the Cultural Revolution: started as an internal power struggle for control of the Chinese Communist Party, thus China, and got out of hand. (See: Mao’s China and After by Meisner.)

  84. 84.

    raven

    October 25, 2014 at 12:19 pm

    How bout a damn football thread so I don’t have to look at weasel shit posts?

  85. 85.

    JR in WV

    October 25, 2014 at 12:19 pm

    Car stuff: We have a VW sold by Joe’s Chevrolet/VW/other_imports. The last time I was by their service center, there was an ocean of Chevys parked in the grass, along the back street, everywhere flat enough to put a car.

    The phone, which is usually answered in 3 or 4 rings would ring and ring, and then you would get a recorded voice saying “Your call is important to us, please stay on the line and an associate will be with you soon.”

    You have to stand in line to talk to a service manager.

    All because every GM product for the past however many years is defective!

    My VW told me the other day that it needed service in 23 days… interesting, we haven’t put many miles on it, we’re both retired and have become hermits. I’ll take it in relatively soon, but, man I hope the GM recalls wind up soon.

    Oh, yes, we got a recall for the VW, but it’s just a software upgrade to better control the fuel pump as seasons and gas blends change. No Mfg. required.

    @ThresherK:

    Condolences on your wife’s (and yours!) loss and injury. Glad the injury was caused by more or less happenstance rather than direct attack, much easier to handle an accident than and attack.

    Moving cats, DO provide litter to the cat unless you’re sure they’ll handle the trip calmly.

    It may be best to hold the kitty on the passenger’s lap for large portions of the trip, they do like their people, and if the people are with the kitty, that’s some stability for the cat.

    We’ve had good luck with self confident cats on laps. Worry wart cats on the other hand maybe should be in a carrier big enough for a litter box…

    Best to all on this beautiful fall day in the Mountain State!

  86. 86.

    raven

    October 25, 2014 at 12:22 pm

    @JR in WV: “At least four deaths are connected with those ruptures. Federal regulators said this week that roughly eight million vehicles from nearly a dozen manufacturers should have repairs done or the bags replaced. That’s on top of 14 million already recalled worldwide..

  87. 87.

    Amir Khalid

    October 25, 2014 at 12:26 pm

    The BBC is reporting that bass guitarist Jack Bruce, formerly of Alexis Korner’s Blues Inc., John Mayall’s Bluesbreakers, Manfred Mann, and Cream, has passed away at 71.

  88. 88.

    raven

    October 25, 2014 at 12:32 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Spoonful

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH_YhoULx4A

  89. 89.

    skerry

    October 25, 2014 at 12:35 pm

    @Davis X. Machina: I used to tell people that I left Indiana because I didn’t want to live in the south. Now I realize that I should have said I didn’t want to live in a Confederacy.

  90. 90.

    Brian R.

    October 25, 2014 at 12:35 pm

    @raven:

    Wow, you seem fun. Must have a lot of friends.

    And “sissy fuckers”? Next time, just call me a faggot.

  91. 91.

    WereBear

    October 25, 2014 at 12:36 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Wow. That’s rather young. Though, perhaps not, for a rock musician.

    Sure enjoyed his work.

  92. 92.

    raven

    October 25, 2014 at 12:40 pm

    @Brian R.: Next time what, you come out of nowhere with a stupid fucking comment on a post that is over six hours old? I don’t give a fuck what you do in your personal life but you act like a little girl. . .Brian.

  93. 93.

    raven

    October 25, 2014 at 12:41 pm

    @WereBear: Listen to him Tales of Brave Ulysses

    You thought the leaden winter would bring you down foever,
    But you rode upon a steamer to the violence of the sun.

    And the colors of the sea blind your eyes with trembling mermaids,
    And you touch the distant beaches with tales of brave Ulysses:
    How his naked ears were tortured by the sirens sweetly singing,
    For the sparkling waves are calling you to kiss their white-lace lips.

  94. 94.

    Amir Khalid

    October 25, 2014 at 12:49 pm

    @WereBear:
    The guys who came up in the 1960s, and survived, are hitting their seventies now. Jack Bruce was born in the same year as Mick and Keith, 1943. Chuck Berry is still performing, and he just turned 87.

  95. 95.

    Steve from Antioch

    October 25, 2014 at 12:53 pm

    @raven:

    So, would you hold up your posts as an example of how a real grown up type person sounds?

  96. 96.

    raven

    October 25, 2014 at 12:54 pm

    @Steve from Antioch: I do not care what you think. Get it? I do not care.

  97. 97.

    El Caganer

    October 25, 2014 at 12:54 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Shit. Great musician for any genre (he recorded all kinds of stuff). I knew he had bad health problems (read somewhere that he had a failed liver transplant), but still….damn.

  98. 98.

    Steve from Antioch

    October 25, 2014 at 12:56 pm

    @raven:

    More of how an adult posts?

  99. 99.

    WereBear

    October 25, 2014 at 12:56 pm

    @raven: A favorite. Thanks!

  100. 100.

    Tokyokie

    October 25, 2014 at 1:01 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: During the Reagan administration, I worked in the Deep South, around a bunch of white college grads who were convinced they weren’t racist (although there was one guy who was rumored to be in the Klan who made no attempts to conceal his racism). Except these guys would make racist jokes and comments throughout the workday. Frankly, I more enjoyed the company of blue-collar types who were not as self-delusional.

  101. 101.

    raven

    October 25, 2014 at 1:01 pm

    @WereBear: Do you remember this from Songs for a Tailor?
    Jack Bruce –Theme for an imaginary western

  102. 102.

    catpal

    October 25, 2014 at 1:03 pm

    @JR in WV: Thanks she is a worry-cat. No lap available for her on this trip so I will talk to the vet about mild sedation. I already feel terrible about putting her through long trip and move but I think she will be ok as long as her known human is still around.

  103. 103.

    WereBear

    October 25, 2014 at 1:06 pm

    @raven: Lovely. Shared.

  104. 104.

    Elie

    October 25, 2014 at 1:14 pm

    @Hal:
    Amen,Hal

    Had a lengthy discussion yesterday with John and others about this. While I understand the points made about the political aspects of it, the core for me is that once you get away from the science and the facts and start pullin policy out of your behind, there is no way to keep things sane. Some other moron will come up with some other crazy justification which, now having science not a consideration, could loop into witchcraft. I asked, how different is this from the report we heard that some shamans in remote villages had ordered health care workers murdered because of their belief that it was they who were bringing in the illness.

    I have nothing but contempt for Cuomo now and would never vote for him for dog catcher. They have set back the effort to get more volunteers in Africa and it just makes me alternately seethe with anger and just cry with frustration.

    We cannot have facts and science drive our decisions when nothing is at stake or when it is easy. There is a cost for following facts and science and politically it may be very unpopular in certain quarters. That said, the cost of following non scientific approaches will be even higher… its much more difficult to get back to the science and eventually you are just nowhere that can be defended. The cost of that is beyond enormous. You become the Dark Ages — allowing witchcraft and magic spells, demons and fantasy to make our decisions. How do you think that the practice of “bleeding” took place? People did not have the science about what blood did and just made up a story that it was necessary to get rid of it when people became sick.

  105. 105.

    Elie

    October 25, 2014 at 1:19 pm

    @ThresherK:

    My condolences to you and your wife. I lost my 91 year old Mom in April and I miss her so much! My best regards and hugs to you, your wife and family..

    Elie

  106. 106.

    Citizen_X

    October 25, 2014 at 1:20 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Wow. Goodbye to a truly great musician.

    My second immediate thought: Ginger fucking Baker outlasted him? Who saw that coming?

    (And see that film if you haven’t yet. I watched it twice, it was that interesting. And yes, the director’s kind of a prat, but I think he got the goods out of Baker.)

  107. 107.

    tybee

    October 25, 2014 at 1:28 pm

    @raven:

    i’ve listened to disraeli gears about 3 billion times. and that’s a conservative estimate.
    had it on an 8 track and on vinyl.

  108. 108.

    Amir Khalid

    October 25, 2014 at 1:30 pm

    @Citizen_X:
    Goodness. Ginger Baker is one scary mofo.

  109. 109.

    raven

    October 25, 2014 at 1:34 pm

    @tybee: Oh yea! It was one of the five or so albums I had over there.

  110. 110.

    WereBear

    October 25, 2014 at 1:37 pm

    @Amir Khalid: It was people’s inability to stand him that led to Eric Clapton leaving Cream.

  111. 111.

    Citizen_X

    October 25, 2014 at 1:41 pm

    @Amir Khalid: I love when he says, “come up and punch me on the nose.” Who’s going to do that? He’d kill you!

    At one point in the movie, Clapton describe how he left Cream to go off and start Blind Faith with Steve Winwood. The two were practicing, and who should drive up but Baker? Clapton thought “Nooooooooo!”

  112. 112.

    d58826

    October 25, 2014 at 1:42 pm

    @Elie. I suspect the average NY straphanger has a better chance of catching anti-biotic resistant TB on the daily commute than he does of catching Ebola

  113. 113.

    Woodrowfan

    October 25, 2014 at 1:58 pm

    Can anyone point out to any instance in a western democracy there were economic problems caused by socialism?

    Eh, as someone noted above, Greece, but public spending was but one of a whole boatload of problems, some self-inflicted, some not. Venezuela and Argentina have kind of screwed up their economies but the latter does so regularly. British stagflation in the 70s may be another example.

    But, OTOH, we can point to a lot of western democracies that have robust economies that the righties would call socialist which have done very well, Germany for one. The European states that are suffering now (Spain, Ireland, etc) are doing so not because they spent too much on social spending, but because they let the banks run amok and created a bubble that burst taking their economies down. Hell, accept for Greece, if I remember right, all the others hit by the real estate bubble had balanced budgets or were even running budget surpluses.

  114. 114.

    Tree With Water

    October 25, 2014 at 2:06 pm

    I knew a guy who lived with his wife in a tiny apartment in a very wealthy community. They believed it wrong that they were allowed to vote on any local issues that dealt with local property and planning (up to and including utility regulations). That is, he was willing to forsake both their franchise in the name of ‘because I’m an idiot’. But that’s the thing- he was an otherwise brilliant guy, one of those people who was a jack-of-all trades and good in all of them. He was even keeled, invariably courteous, and respectful enough of my politics. He never called me full of shit, but then again, I never called him that, either. But he sincerely believed what he said– only land owning property owners should be allowed to vote. This was only 5 or 6 years ago, and they were both just pushing 30. I wonder now where he learned his history.

  115. 115.

    El Caganer

    October 25, 2014 at 2:08 pm

    @raven: I really like this one, and I think it makes a kinda nice memorial.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1fvqPsbn7I

  116. 116.

    raven

    October 25, 2014 at 2:12 pm

    @El Caganer: It does indeed.

  117. 117.

    Elie

    October 25, 2014 at 2:18 pm

    @d58826:

    You are right for now..

    Unfortunately, the ignorant move by Cuomo and Christie makes it harder to get medical volunteers who can go to Africa and fight the infection at its source — the place most scientists and medical experts believe is essential if we are to prevent its ongoing spread to other countries. What a horrible example they set! After initially having a great press conference when the new case was identified, Cuomo completely reversed himself and ignored his own public health folks to do this. Problem is, implementing it is going to require a lot of inconsistent policy. What to do with all the medical professionals here who are and have treated Ebola patients. Are they all to be on constant quarantine? Emory personnel have taken care of several medical personnel with Ebola. Do they have to be in quarantine for 21 days after caring for them?

    It was a cowardly, medieval decision and I swear, as God is my witness, I will work against Cuomo in every way I can. He is an ignorant, narcissistic, coward who does not deserve to lead anything. Christie too.

  118. 118.

    Ruckus

    October 25, 2014 at 2:38 pm

    @Elie:
    One has to actually be a leader to lead. Cuomo and his ilk remind me of the old joke, politician standing on the sidewalk watching a protest march asking those around him, where are they going, what are they protesting, these are my people, I must find out what the protest is about so I can lead them.

  119. 119.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    October 25, 2014 at 3:06 pm

    Via the NY Times, comments from the nurse quarantined in New Jersey:

    I was tired, hungry and confused, but I tried to remain calm. My temperature was taken using a forehead scanner and it read a temperature of 98. I was feeling physically healthy but emotionally exhausted.

    Three hours passed. No one seemed to be in charge. No one would tell me what was going on or what would happen to me.

    I called my family to let them know that I was OK. I was hungry and thirsty and asked for something to eat and drink. I was given a granola bar and some water. I wondered what I had done wrong.

    Four hours after I landed at the airport, an official approached me with a forehead scanner. My cheeks were flushed, I was upset at being held with no explanation. The scanner recorded my temperature as 101.

    The female officer looked smug. “You have a fever now,” she said.

    I explained that an oral thermometer would be more accurate and that the forehead scanner was recording an elevated temperature because I was flushed and upset.

    I was left alone in the room for another three hours. At around 7 p.m., I was told that I must go to a local hospital. I asked for the name and address of the facility. I realized that information was only shared with me if I asked.

    Eight police cars escorted me to the University Hospital in Newark. Sirens blared, lights flashed. Again, I wondered what I had done wrong.

    Brilliant system; just brilliant.

    Yeah, nobody who wants to go to help in western Africa is going to have any problems taking an additional “3 week vacation”. Sure.

    :-(

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  120. 120.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    October 25, 2014 at 3:17 pm

    @WereBear:

    I’m sorry about Mr. Bond. It’s hard to lose them even when you know they had a good, long life.

  121. 121.

    Elie

    October 25, 2014 at 3:20 pm

    And being treated like a felon. Another front opens on the war on science. Disgraceful

  122. 122.

    Elie

    October 25, 2014 at 3:26 pm

    Illinois just did the same Btw

    Politics trumps science

  123. 123.

    chopper

    October 25, 2014 at 3:27 pm

    @Elie:

    once you get away from the science and the facts and start pullin policy out of your behind, there is no way to keep things sane

    tell that to MSF. they tell their doctors to take 3 weeks off work after coming back from west africa in part to spare the doc’s coworkers from stress and anxiety. there’s no scientific reason whatsoever for his or her coworkers to be scared but MSF is apparently feeding into the hysteria that way.

    or maybe they’re just trying to deal with reality and keep the freakouts to a minimum.

  124. 124.

    Elie

    October 25, 2014 at 3:31 pm

    I want to know if the professionals treating the doc in Ny or the nurse in Jersey are going to be quarantined for 21 days. If not why not? Are only people who have treated Africans singled out? This is very dangerous territory

  125. 125.

    Elie

    October 25, 2014 at 3:36 pm

    @chopper:
    This is BS

    Things are just going to blow up if they implement a policy that singles out only those who took care of Africans. Watch

  126. 126.

    chopper

    October 25, 2014 at 3:45 pm

    @Elie:

    MSF’s recommendations for their returning doctors are BS? i don’t think they just invented that policy a few days ago, tho i could be wrong.

  127. 127.

    WereBear

    October 25, 2014 at 3:59 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): Thanks. Yes, it is.

  128. 128.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    October 25, 2014 at 4:21 pm

    @chopper: It was pointed out in an earlier thread that you were taking MSF’s recommendations out of context.

    As long as a returned staff member does not experience any symptoms, normal life can proceed. Family, friends, and neighbors can be assured that a returned staff person who does not present symptoms is not contagious and does not put them at risk. Self-quarantine is neither warranted nor recommended when a person is not displaying Ebola-like symptoms.

    However, returned staff members are discouraged from returning to work during the 21-day period. Field assignments are extremely challenging and people need to regain energy. In addition, people who return to work too quickly could catch a simple bacterial or viral infection (common cold, bronchitis, flu etc.) that may have symptoms similar to Ebola. This can create needless stress and anxiety for the person involved and his/her colleagues. For this reason, MSF continues to provide salaries to returned staff for the 21-day period.

    They’re told to refrain from returning to work mainly for their own sake, not mainly to lessen panic in the community. It’s a reasonable recommendation given the main two reasons they cite (decompressing, less risk of themselves catching an infection from their work site).

    They say a quarantine is not warranted nor recommended for people not displaying symptoms. That’s what Elie’s (and I’m) saying as well.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  129. 129.

    chopper

    October 25, 2014 at 4:36 pm

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    this part:

    However, returned staff members are discouraged from returning to work during the 21-day period. Field assignments are extremely challenging and people need to regain energy. In addition, people who return to work too quickly could catch a simple bacterial or viral infection (common cold, bronchitis, flu etc.) that may have symptoms similar to Ebola. This can create needless stress and anxiety for the person involved and his/her colleagues.

    is quite clear. i never said ‘keeping the coworkers’ anxiety down’ is the only reason for the cool-down period (hence the phrase ‘in part’), but it’s certainly there and a reason MSF considers important.

    how does that have any scientific basis at all? it doesn’t. is MSF anti-science now?

    point is, even the MSF takes this non-science-based stuff into account. maybe, just maybe, dealing with what’s happening in real life is important here.

  130. 130.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    October 25, 2014 at 4:56 pm

    @chopper: It is quite frustrating debating this topic with you. :-p

    You take the 3rd order benefit and talk about it as if it’s most important while couching it in language (“in part”) to give yourself an out…

    Elie (and I) haven’t said that any psychological benefit of a reasonable policy is somehow based on junk science.

    MSF’s rationale is clear as can be, it seems to me. They say that an MSF person being run-down and catching a viral infection while at work can cause stress among co-workers because of the uncertainty. A policy that recommends being away from a place that commonly has lots of viruses and bacteria around (hospitals and medical facilities) while being in a run-down state makes sense from a medical and scientific standpoint. The policy doesn’t say that a person should stay home because Ebola is scary on general principles, it doesn’t say they can’t go out in public, it doesn’t say they can’t live a normal life for 21 days.

    Cuomo and Christy (and now Illinois), on the other hand, instituted the mandatory quarantine because Ebola is scary on general principles, not because it has a psychological benefit while being based on reasonable science.

    I heard a bit ago that Gov. Patrick of Massachusetts has declined to institute a mandatory quarantine. We’ll see if they have less or more panic than the others soon, I guess.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  131. 131.

    Elie

    October 25, 2014 at 4:58 pm

    Tell me how caring for an Ebola patient in the US is different than caring for an Ebola patient in Africa. Why should those who cared for Africans be treated differently than those caring for infected people here, as long as they used creditable PPE? Your answer needs to be fact based. MSf would not need to make that distinction and have a very excellent reputation. Are we going to ignore that issue even as we know we had transmission of Ebola to care givers here and many to this day don’t feel that all hospitals absolutely know how to do this? I think that is a natural question that now having wandered away from science in implementing this quarantine, may present some challenges to explain.

  132. 132.

    chopper

    October 25, 2014 at 5:08 pm

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    You take the 3rd order benefit and talk about it as if it’s most important

    i’m not saying it’s the most important. i’m pointing that one out specifically because it’s completely anti-science. yet it’s not like people are hammering MSF for ‘validating the public’s anxious fee-fees’.

    Elie (and I) haven’t said that any psychological benefit of a reasonable policy is somehow based on junk science.

    this isn’t a matter of a science-based reason behind the policy that happens to also have a psychological benefit in the outcome. this is an actual policy basis, without any scientific bearing whatsoever, being put forth by MSF. a basis there solely to reduce other peoples’ irrational anxieties.

    why is it there at all?

  133. 133.

    chopper

    October 25, 2014 at 5:26 pm

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    catching a viral infection while at work can cause stress among co-workers because of the uncertainty

    but why? if the doc has a fever, headache and body aches, even if he actually has ebola it’s not like there’s any reasonable chance in hell he could have given it to a coworker or anybody else, right? this ‘coworker stress’ is completely unjustified from a scientific standpoint. it’s just people being scared and anxious.

    so why is MSF validating the public’s anxiety here? why aren’t they being strictly scientific?

  134. 134.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    October 25, 2014 at 6:25 pm

    @chopper: You seem to have a strange definition of “anti-science”.

    Reread #130, please.

    I’m sure you’re aware of things like this. Stress at work can have real impacts on the ability to fight infection and inflamation. A benefit of reduced stress at work is a healthier workforce. But, again, MSF isn’t saying that their workers should stay home primarily so that their colleagues or the public feels better.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  135. 135.

    chopper

    October 25, 2014 at 6:27 pm

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    what’s the medical basis for a 21-day ‘rest up’ period? is it just coincidental that it happens to be the same period of time as the quarantine period?

    i ask because every person i know who volunteers in places like west africa doesn’t take 21 days to stop being ‘run down’. usually a few days to get over jet lag etc.

    i mean, the effect you’re talking about doesn’t go for 3 whole weeks. not even close.

  136. 136.

    chopper

    October 25, 2014 at 6:41 pm

    i think it’s hardly coincidental that MSF tells their docs to stay off work for 21 days, which just happens to be the commonly-accepted longest likely incubation period for EVD.

    clearly it’s less ‘you might be run down and catch something’ as it is ‘you might catch something and it’s still within the possible ebola incubation period so you and everybody else will freak the fuck out over your fever and headache’.

  137. 137.

    bin Lurkin'

    October 25, 2014 at 6:46 pm

    @chopper: The stress and anxiety on the coworkers could easily be explained as concern that a colleague and possible friend may be coming down with a deadly disease, not necessarily that the coworkers are afraid of catching it.

    The reason for 21 days is so that if they do then after that period catch some other less malign virus it will not be immediately assumed to be Ebola by everyone including them.

  138. 138.

    scuffletuffle

    October 25, 2014 at 7:05 pm

    @Citizen_X: Love that documentary, Ginger kicks ass! Love it and him!

  139. 139.

    Ajabu

    October 25, 2014 at 9:10 pm

    As I said in a previous thread:

    MORE AMERICANS HAVE BEEN MARRIED TO KIM KARDASHIAN THAN HAVE CONTRACTED EBOLA.

    Calm the fuck down, America!!

  140. 140.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    October 25, 2014 at 11:30 pm

    @Davis X. Machina: A compelling piece. Thanks for the pointer.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

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