Jeffrey Tayler has a long defense of Bill Maher’s anti-Islam comments. Here’s his main point:
Maher’s detractors, and often their interviewers in the media, ignore the central point he made in his controversial monologue, which was that if being liberal means anything, it means opposing theocracy. He declared that, “It’s okay to judge that rule of law isn’t just different than theocracy, it’s better. If you don’t see that, then you are either a religious fanatic or a masochist. But one thing you are not is a liberal.”
Put another way, secularism and legal protections for free speech are the finest fruits of the Enlightenment. They merit spirited defense and should not be casually surrendered to those who, in the name of misbegotten notions of “multiculturalism” or political correctness, would institute their own versions of the Inquisition and decide for others what speech is permissible, what is not. Nonbelievers should not sit idly by as those who attack the single greatest historical enemy of human progress, organized religion, are intimidated or barred from the debating table (or the commencement-address podium). In Islam’s case, this is no easy task, given that for many Muslims the faith infuses their politics, customs and identity, and its critics have faced violence and assassination.
One thing is certain: You know you enjoy true freedom of speech when you can mock religion without fear of violence, persecution or ostracism. If, though, you deride faith and you suffer any of these ills, you know the Spirit of Medieval Darkness is still out and about.
I’m an atheist through and through, but I’m generally unmoved to defend Bill Maher, for two reasons. First, when it comes to his rhetoric about Islam, he’s a bull in a china shop. He treats Islam as one amorphous blob of belief, when it’s clear that a lot of the ugly misogyny is confined to a subset of believers. Second, he’s far too invested in his quest to show that all religion is stupid to make a distinction between religious belief and religious practice.
If there’s anything more tedious than someone trying to sell their religion, it’s an atheist arguing with someone trying to sell their religion. I realize there’s an audience for the latter, and Maher is trying to mine it, but that audience is far smaller than the group of people willing to ban female genital mutilation or enforce the same public educational standards for boys and girls. If you’re serious about pulling together a broad coalition of groups opposing theocracy, Bill Maher isn’t the guy to lead the charge, because his rhetoric pisses off a whole group of religious people who would otherwise be sympathetic to the cause. That’s just basic politics, and nobody is infringing on Bill Maher’s free speech rights when they point out that he’s a shitty spokesman for an important cause.
Linda Featheringill
There are some people who claim to be atheist but for them, atheism is a religion to be preached and sold.
The rest of us merely say “No thank you” and lead our lives.
Theocracy, of course, is a curse – of biblical proportions.
Baud
I don’t pay enough attention to Bill Maher to have an opinion on this issue. But one of my red flags is any argument that treats disagreement as oppression, like this quote does (which I note isn’t Maher himself).
And if we allow ourselves a bit of self-criticism, this isn’t the first time I’ve seen this argument on the left. (I see it on the right also, but I think we should be better than they are.)
Also, a noble intent does not necessarily signify an effective strategy.
Morzer
After observing Maher playing footsie with the anti-vaxxers long after it should have been evident that they were both ignorant and dangerous to the public health, I find it impossible to take him seriously on any other issue. I give him credit for occasional good jokes plus the demolition of the Non-witch of Delaware, but that’s as far as I can go.
Bobby B.
I’m one of the few who think Maher isn’t hateful enough (reason #56 I live alone).
Schlemazel
Bill always has a great line and is a lot of fun to listen to, but he is maddening because he MUST convince people and you MUST change to his opinion. Religion is his worst topic on that second part, one of his best on the first part. @Linda Featheringill: has it exactly right, for Bill atheism is a religion & you must convert.
I enjoy a lot of what he says but I almost never endorse him because he is just as likely to go off the rails as to win the argument.
EDIT to extend: The right is full of exactly this type & they are wildly successful, we can all name a dozen or more & we discuss the here endlessly. He is a good firebrand for the left & if nothing else could be the guy “reasonable” lefties could distance themselves from
Mr. Prosser
Maher is an entertainer, he does sh!t fir money, period, just like all the rest of them, left and right.
Baud
@Schlemazel:
The one and only time I watched Bill’s show was a few days ago, when he showed the difference between where Dems and Republicans stood on climate change. I did appreciate that.
Baud
@Schlemazel:
The tell for me is whether he jumps on the Rand Paul bandwagon in 2016.
Amir Khalid
Up to now, I haven’t said anything here about Bill Maher and his opinion of Islam; I have an obvious personal stake in the matter. Also because when I read the statements attributed to Maher, or an article like Jeffrey Tayler’s, I feel anger. I will note that Maher and Tayler attribute to Muslims a uniformity — no, make that a unanimity — of political thought which they wouldn’t attribute to any other religious community, and which I can testify doesn’t exist in real life.
satby
Another part of being a liberal is respecting people’s right to a different opinion (even if you think their opinion is idiotic, as long as their opinion isn’t infringing on your rights). Bill fails at that, and it’s a fine line for anyone to walk anyway. Most people believe their opinions are the right one and can’t see how anyone could possibly be intelligent and hold a different opinion, so they infer all sorts of negative motives for that.
I’m not at all religious, but other people find comfort in that, so let them. I will battle ignorance or hateful behavior in the name of religion, but those are subsets of believers. And then you’re fighting actions infringing on others, not necessarily the belief itself.
Omnes Omnibus
Zealotry is almost always problematic.
Schlemazel
@Baud:
Absolutely! Bill does a great job of drawing the idiocy of the right into sharp focus and we could use a few more like him on the cable news channels. Particularly his humor is a great weapon. I do love listening to him but he can make me cringe & wish he were not on ‘my side’ sometimes too.
To his everlasting credit he was one of very very very few that stood against the 9/11 insanity and made no bones about the idiocy too many fell for. His suggestions for a real anti-terrorist program instead of the endless bombing campaign was a great program, so much better than what we got.
Amir Khalid
@Bobby B.:
Is that to say you don’t think he hates Islam enough?
satby
@Baud: Maher identifies as a Libertarian, so I expect he will.
Howard Beale IV
Everyone’s missing the key point-Maher is a satirist, not an apologist. (Although, under the right chemicals, he could be a satyr…)
cokane
for being such a shitty spokesman, his comments have created an awfully big wave of conversation
Schlemazel
@Amir Khalid:
I know it is not enough to be helpful to you but Bill treats every religion this way. And people like you, decent, rational, believers are hurt and angered by his rhetoric, fully justified. I jst think he is one of those guys who wants to win the argument so badly that he steamrolls everyone so they are easier to beat.
Amir Khalid
@Howard Beale IV:
Maher defends his statements not like a satirist, but like someone who makes them seriously.
Linda Featheringill
@Amir Khalid:
You have a valid point about accusations of unamity. These are a feature of many kinds of prejudice, racial as well as religious.
Everytime I hear a comment like “all disaffected Baptists” or whatever, I start looking over my shoulder for signs of being made a scapegoat for stuff. I feel that kind of talk is part of a witchhunt.
Baud
@satby:
Well, then, we should respect that and not call him a liberal.
cokane
@satby:
Do you even watch his show? He has people on all the time, left, right, libertarian, socialist — and he often doesn’t agree with them. But he also lets his guests run their mouths almost as much as they want. Hell, watch the recent show with Rula Jabreal going after him and you tell him who is more respectful of different opinions.
BubbaDave
@Amir Khalid:
And which we wouldn’t tolerate in any other case.
“In Judaism’s case, this is no easy task, given that for many Jews the faith infuses their politics, customs and identity” — in a post-Shoah world that phrase would give everybody the heebie-jeebies. Why is it less vile when we talk about Islam? (Hint: it’s not.)
Morzer
@Howard Beale IV:
Maher doesn’t present himself as a satirist all the time by any means. He was clearly serious when he defended the anti-vaxxers and seemed amazed that anyone would disagree with him. Moreover, he’s done so persistently over the years on his show, in interviews, on Twitter and in print. The same is true of his anti-GMO advocacy.
Gin & Tonic
@Amir Khalid: Note that Bobby B says “Reason #56” and not “Reason #LVI.” Islam has brought arguably at least as much good to humankind as has the Enlightenment.
Morzer
It might be worth observing Bill Maher in action on the topic of vaccination:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB5DLf1Qt78
When Bill Frist is the voice of fact-based sanity in the room, you know you’ve got problems.
cokane
@Morzer: these are good points and odd case with Maher, who is usually on the right side of science. On the anti-GMO issue, in his defense, that has caught up alot of lefties.
Schlemazel
Yes, Bill is a libertarian – self confessed. As such he will be on the progressive side often & we can enjoy that when it happens. But, at least with the current version, that means he is anti-progressive at some times. But, as with religion, it would be wrong to see libertarians as a monolith, there are all shades of gray in there.
Also, I think he sees himself as a comic who uses his humor to convince people of the right (his) opinion. Its fun when my opinion coincides with his and maddening when I am tarred with his opinion that I don’t agree with.
MattF
I draw a line between people whose beliefs require devaluing the lives of non-believers and people whose beliefs require emphasizing the value of lives of non-believers. This exercise in line-drawing puts Maher on the wrong side of the line. And it has nothing to do with Enlightenment values.
Another line, which IMO is where the Enlightenment comes in, can be drawn between flatly wrong or ridiculous beliefs and beliefs that are– shall we say– unproven. As long as I manage to keep my temper, I’ll refrain from ridiculing someone’s ridiculous but sincere beliefs. But if you believe something ridiculous, you should not be protected from ridicule.
Linda Featheringill
There are some out-and-out Islam haters in the US and I apologize for them.
My only defense for them is noting that humans make up a primitive species and need more time to become reasonable and logical. Not much of a defense, I know.
Schlemazel
@Gin & Tonic:
The basis of the terror organization that has frightened and confused more Americans than any other!
Al-gabra! DAH-DAH-DUUUUUUN!
Morzer
Another clip of Maher making clear that he is emphatically NOT just being a satirist on the anti-vaxxer bandwagon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSg6lG3cvTE
He apparently believes that the science of vaccination is “not settled”.
Tommy
@Schlemazel: You are mistaken. You are right Bill takes issues with all reglions. But he has taken Islam as one faith he targets. Says it. Openly says it. I like Bill most times and will stand up and support him. On this, not so much.
qtip
Maher and Harris rely heavily on the Pew polling data. It says thing like 86% of Egyptian Muslims support the death penalty for leaving Islam (this percentage is for Muslims that think Sharia should be the law of the land which is 74% of Muslims in Egypt). So Maher seems to be basing his statements in fact, unless you think the polls are wrong.
Maher explicitly acknowledges that not all Muslims believe this. Take a look at the Maher/Harris/Affleck video and you can listen to both Maher and Harris explicitly say they are not talking about all Muslims.
Morzer
@cokane:
Bill Maher claims to be on the right side of science, but I am not convinced he has anything like an adequate understanding of what science is, much less the facts in any particular case of it. The tell here is the classic denialist claim that “the science isn’t settled”. Well, you know what, it is settled in the case of vaccination. Vaccination works. Think of the killer diseases that had been either effectively eradicated or made relatively harmless by it – and then, look at where we are now seeing new outbreaks of those diseases in the US, for example, whooping cough. We see those outbreaks precisely in the areas where the anti-vaxxers have left enough of their kids vulnerable that herd immunity no longer applies. You could not ask for a better demonstration that vaccination works and that, frankly, the anti-vaxxers are a scientifically illiterate danger to their children and to public health.
Schlemazel
@Tommy:
Have you seen ‘Religilous’? He openly hates all religions. That he has been particularly loud about Islam at this time is more a function of the times. He said the same bigoted things about Christianity before 9/11 almost exclusively. Judaism has not escaped unscathed either. To me one of the big differences in the US is that hitting Christianity is hitting the majority, hitting the others is picking on the weak and already disadvantaged.
None of what I said is a defense of Bill because he really does lump all believers into one group. He has been particularly vocal about Islam recently.
Kropadope
@Morzer:
Was he really, though? I’ve heard Maher say some dumb, dumb things about vaccines. However, none of them were on that clip. He cited scientific studies indicating that flu vaccines particularly are not proven effective and that was just waved away and Frist brought up polio instead, because he’s a Republican and will always shift the discourse to a topic he feels like he’s on safer ground.
So far this year, everyone I’ve known to get sick with a flu or flu-like symptoms were people who received a flu shot. It’s not like polio where there’s one disease your vaccinating for, it changes constantly.
The Thin Black Duke
@Morzer: Yep. As Kurt Vonnegut put it, “Science is magic that works.”
Morzer
@Schlemazel:
A lot of Maher’s schtick is that he’s the reasonable, open-minded, freedom-loving guy who is just asking questions because “they” (whoever they are) are hiding things or trying to close off debate. That pose lets him get away with a lot of crankery and, frankly, a solid dose of conspiracy theorist fantasy as well. He’s not as dangerous as Glenn Beck, because he does have some sort of limits and sense of reality, but in terms of how he makes his case he’s not as far removed from Beck as we might like to think.
Baud
@Tommy:
If that’s true, I really don’t understand. If you’re an American whose show is aimed at an American audience, why wouldn’t you focus on home-grown theocracy? Focusing on Islam won’t convince Americans to be less religious; it will simply convince them to be anti-Islam. As we all know, the proponents of “anti-Sharia” laws are right-wing conservatives who are hardly anti-religion.
Morzer
@Kropadope:
I think if you watch both of the clips I cited, you’ll find enough of Maher’s crankery on vaccination to make it clear where he’s coming from.
Kropadope
@Morzer: I’m watching the second one now. Like I said, I know he says some dumb, dumb things about vaccines. That Bill Frist interview just wasn’t a good example of that.
Morzer
@Baud:
If you want to have an audience in America, you very quickly realize that there are many safer targets than homegrown theocracy. Bashing Islam elsewhere is much safer and will get you more approving nods, clicks etc etc. Hell, our “news” media is absolutely unwilling to take on the various deranged American manifestations of “Christianity” and the bizarre theologies they come up with along the way. Likewise domestic terrorism, the facts about how many Americans are killed by guns every year etc etc etc. Maher has as good a sense of self-preservation as they do.
Morzer
@Kropadope:
It’s worth viewing both of them, because you see Maher edging towards his conspiracy theories with Frist – and being very sensitive in the next clip to the criticism he got for the things he said. It was interesting to see just how defensive he was on that score.
Baud
@Morzer:
Right. I get that. But if that’s the case with Maher, I wonder how much his attempt at self-preservation is undermining what I assume is his sincere goal to convince people to give up religion.
The Thin Black Duke
@Morzer: Thing is, Maher is the symptom of a much bigger problem, unfortunately. What has happened is because the news media has gotten so bad, the public expects comedians like Maher to do the job journalists used to do, and that isn’t just goddamned embarrassing; it’s dangerous.
Kropadope
@Morzer: I think he made some good points on the second clip about how the incentives are lined up wrong and how medicine has done things in the past that are known to be harmful. He may go overboard in chastising people for these things and ignoring the fact that there is an active debate to pound the table demanding a debate, but there’s plenty right about what he’s saying here too.
ETA: Where I disagree with Maher profoundly is on religion, particularly toward Islam. There is nothing to recommend his attitudes there.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@cokane: I wouldn’t say that Maher is intolerant of other opinions, largely because that’s a really difficult thing to define. What I do think is that he is incapable of recognizing moderate people who disagree with him in part but are natural allies against the people who not only disagree with him but are also dangerous. There’s a scorched earth element to his approach that makes it more difficult to get things done.
This is a conspicuous danger from those whose primary base is in entertainment. Maher is, structurally, in a similar position to someone like Limbaugh in that his self-interest is in causing controversy and conflict rather than solving problems. That’s how he makes his money and by itself is a good reason not to let him be the leader of anything.
Phaedrus
Bill (and many others) focus their criticism on people who take their beliefs from the Koran (or the Bible, or Torah… etc.). These books are filled with horrible ideas. If you choose to call yourself a Muslim or Christian (or whatever) but don’t believe that the Koran or the Bible hold the word of your god, then you are not the target of Bill’s tirades. (Sam Harris is very explicit about this, Bill is a little more muddled).
Many religious people play this game – “I don’t believe in stoning gay people, but I still believe the Bible is the word of God – I’m a REAL Christian, not that nut job over that the let his kid die by not going to the doctor”.
Bill and his ilk call bullshit on this. They are trying to point out that “good” Christians and Muslims are generally the ones who reject the horrible things in their founding documents in favor of secular morality.
Baud
@The Thin Black Duke:
That’s a good point. And it is dangerous because it can lead people to not only be overly cynical, but also to believe that the only useful political perspective to have is one that is critical of what others are doing.
I’ll admit, I enjoy being snarky on this blog, but sometimes I wonder whether I’m feeding the same beast in my own small way.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Phaedrus: And when he says that, it shows that Maher really doesn’t understand the people he’s talking about.
Daniel'sBob
I enjoy Maher up to a point as some others have mentioned, but he’s often a bit too much like those he ridicules. Instead of an infallible god, he’s convinced of the infallibility of his own mind–definitely a libertarian. As a “liberal” I have some pretty strongly held beliefs, but I never rule out the possibility that I could be wrong about at least some of them.
I do miss George Carlin and his “f**k ’em all” attitude towards religion.
kc
I don’t remember lefties showing so much tender concern for the feelings of Mormons.
Kropadope
@kc: Are Mormons under assault by the U.S. Army and chattering classes or anyone other than, perhaps, a handful of Mormon commune leaders?
Howard Beale IV
@Morzer:
And throw in measles and mumps, too. Looks like no one has been able to bitchslap him on his show and take him down a few pegs.
Morzer
@Kropadope:
The problem is that Maher is conflating two very different issues:
1) The overuse of doctor visits and overprescription of certain drugs
2) The validity of vaccinations
They simply are not the same thing – and the fact that Americans and their doctors make the first mistake simply doesn’t connect to the science behind vaccination. Maher makes matters worse when, having committed some horrendous logical blunders, he then tries to defend his errors by appealing to the idea that “they” must be hiding something. That’s absolutely how conspiracy theorists argue: lack of evidence proves that “they” have hidden it to bamboozle you.
There’s an enormous amount of evidence that vaccines work and that they do so just as science predicted. Overprescription of drugs, too many visits to the doctor, too many CAT scans etc etc say that there are problems with how we handle medical care in our society – but say absolutely nothing about the validity of vaccination. Nor does it help Maher’s case when he tries to claim that relatively ineffective flu shots somehow show that vaccination as a whole doesn’t work. You might as well argue that because you once had a bad meal in McDonalds that there are no competent cooks in America.
The Thin Black Duke
@Baud: I guess what infuriates me about Bill Maher is that I’m old enough to remember when polio was still a big fucking problem in my world, so whenever I hear Maher spew that superstitious anti-vaccine nonsense, it pisses me off. This is more than a difference of opinion; this is a delusional belief that has ominous consequences. It kills people.
Kropadope
@Morzer: Didn’t he make a point in one of those clips you posted to point out that he is not against vaccine theory as a whole, just that it is being misapplied in the case of flu vaccines? He also pointed out that the CDC website shows these vaccines have ingredients in them that you certainly not want to be exposed to under ordinary circumstances. I don’t watch his show often, but the function of this conversation and the clips you showed me were actually to convince me he may not be as crazy on the subject as I had been led to believe.
Morzer
@kc:
I don’t remember a large slice of American society and contemporary opinioneers denouncing all of modern Mormonism as violent, misogynistic and productive of terrorists. Even suggesting that Mormonism is not really any form of Christianity as it has been understood for roughly 2000 years seems to be beyond the pale, although that opinion was once pretty widely held among right wing Christians.
skeptiktb
One of the most tiresome aspects of Maher’s “argument” is its almost mystical simplicity. It takes into account none of the history of the region where most of the “Islamicists” were born. To understand isn’t to forgive, of course, but it would be helpful. I suspect many of these adventurers know little about the Koran.
Maher’s unhelpful in this particular case, but it is still good to have him on our side. He was a lonely voice fighting piety and unanimity after 9/11. He also puts money where his mouth is. It was a tough year to flip a district, but at least he tried.
Howard Beale IV
@Kropadope: Maher’s big deal was harping on the use of Thiomersal as a preservative in the influenza vaccine.
Morzer
@Kropadope:
You seem to be forgetting his (nonsensical) claim that the science of vaccines is not settled.
Which is ridiculous. Sure, no-one wants to consume penicillin for its nutritive value or delightful taste. The point is that medicine is applied to restore ordinary circumstances after you contract a disease. Or, in the case of vaccination, to make sure that you don’t contract said disease. You might as well point out that no-one wants to eat uncooked potatoes and meat. This is true, but irrelevant, precisely because we cook them before we eat them, Likewise, we compound ingredients into a medicine that is not, in fact, the same thing as its unintegrated parts when we take it. Maher’s argument here is not even trivial – it’s simply wildly misguided.
Mike in NC
Bill Maher, the guy who infamously had a thing going on with Ann Coulter? Screw all of these media creeps and their phony personalities.
Kropadope
@Morzer: I think part of the is here is actually that Maher’s detractors are conflating Maher’s ideas bout what I would call a vaccination mindset with all vaccinations. In my words, just because you can, and should, vaccinate against most deadly diseases, doesn’t mean you should vaccinate against all things all the time.
The flu is ubiquitous and amorphous. The vaccine is pushed for everybody, but there are definitely segments of the public where the potential harm outweighs the potential good. Not least the potential harm of shortages, which we’ve seen in recent years, resulting in the lack of availability of a shot to someone whom it may actually help.
karen marie
I read somewhere recently a discussion about why western societies progressed so far in advance of other societies, and it boiled down to reliable rule of (secular) law. I wish I had a clue where I read it. Might have been LG&M, might not.
Kropadope
@Morzer: I was thinking more like bug repellant and mercury. Exposure to these things may be worthwhile in the case of measles, rubella, whooping cough, et c. However, broad campaigns to immunize everyone against the flu every year doesn’t hit the cost/benefit mark I’m looking for when making healthcare decisions. It’s a little like trying to hit a moving target who has a hostage.
GregB
I think that there is much merit to his criticism of modern day fanatical Islam, but like most criticism it is not very nuanced.
He essentially lumps all of Islam into one big violent box. It would be the equivalent of lumping in modern day Unitarians into the same ideological corner as evangelical fundamentalists.
By treating all of the followers of Islam so, you make it hard for the folks who could be pulled or persuaded into your corner to listen to your message because they are on defense.
My old pal says that a good leader keeps the people who hate you separated from the people who are ambivalent about you.
Morzer
@Kropadope:
But Maher himself is arguing, as the clips show, that the science of vaccination is “not settled”. But it is. There’s an abundance of evidence that vaccinations work, that they do so in the way they are supposed to work and that they do so consistently. Are all vaccines equally effective? No – but that isn’t the fundamental case that Maher is arguing. He keeps coming back to the claim that somehow vaccines are hinky because they’ve got these bad things in them and that in any case ‘western medicine’ is somehow imperfect/flawed/overprescribed. He ignores the vast bulk of the evidence (accumulated over roughly 200 years) that vaccinations do work and work in the way that they are supposed to work – and his arguments are either trivial, factually mistaken or simply bodge irrelevancies together. Consider polio, smallpox and tuberculosis, to name only three deeply unpleasant diseases – and consider why they no longer devastate American communities and individual lives on a regular basis. Now ask yourself how you are supposed to take Bill Maher seriously when he warns you that the science of vaccinations is not settled and that, in any case, vaccines contain icky things which means … what, exactly?
Kropadope
@Morzer: Again, specifically in the case of these flu vaccines. He readily admits that vaccination against a wide range of diseases, including those particular ones you mention, has been very helpful to society. Not every disease is polio. Who’s doing the conflation?
gelfling545
@The Thin Black Duke: This is my feeling as well. My brothers & I had whooping cough. By great good luck & my parents’ constant vigilance we all survived. My younger brother was severely health impaired his whole life due to my mother contracting German measles in pregnancy. Everybody knew a family that had been affected by polio when I was a kid. It’s easy to decide against vaccinations when you’ve never seen the other side.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Kropadope: Maher is a crank when it comes to arguing against the flu vaccine.
CDC Key Facts has a list of why people should get vaccinated, and who shouldn’t.
Maher’s simply wrong about this.
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
The Thin Black Duke
@Morzer: Be careful, man. When you’re arguing with somebody who has already made up their mind, it’s a rabbit hole with no bottom.
Daniel'sBob
@Kropadope: Flu kills. Not every body, not most–but too many. Herd immunity works.
lol
Actually, there’s quite a heavy overlap between the two audiences. There’s a really vile misogynistic streak to the atheism movement. The misogyny isn’t related to the atheism itself of course, but it does say a lot about the people who associate themselves with it that they shut down any attempts to point out the shitbags in their group.
Ronnie Pudding
“He treats Islam as one amorphous blob of belief, when it’s clear that a lot of the ugly misogyny is confined to a subset of believers”
This is exactly the same point Evangelicals make about liberals.
Kropadope
@The Thin Black Duke: Perhaps I could say the same about you lot. I bet you’d vaccinate against a runny nose. We can’t control everything.
the Conster
Maher once made the point that in the long march towards civilization, Islam has gone from leading to bringing up the rear. It’s hard to argue with that when looking around at the current ME. Lost in that analysis though by most pundits, including Maher, is the way that the Arabic/Islamic countries (and most of Africa and South America) have been subjected to western imperialistic meddling – overthrowing and/or installing leaders that can be manipulated and controlled by our “interests”, ie., they have “our” oil, creating blow back populist movements with religious zealots in charge. In the case of Saudi Arabia, they conveniently fuel anti-western fanaticsm to deflect all of that energy away from their failings to provide any enlightenment principles for their populace. All understanding about the current state of Islam should account for that, but since it involves nuance and acknowledging some ugly truths about American culpability, it doesn’t happen. Saddam was a secular leader, and getting rid of him leads in a straight line to ISIS.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Kropadope: Runny nose isn’t (at least part of) the #9 cause of death in the US.
Cheers,
Scott.
Kropadope
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I didn’t say we shouldn’t vaccinate anyone against these diseases, the young, the old, and the immunocompromised (was that a soap opera), perhaps. Frankly, though, too many people want this to possibly prevent a couple days discomfort, but they often get that with the vaccine anyway.
Gene108
@The Thin Black Duke:
I agree.
As much as I do not care for Bill Maher’s show, it at least gets some info out that otherwise would not see the light of day.
Same for Stewart and Colbert.
Kropadope
@The Thin Black Duke: And, for the record, this conversation did change my mind.
Daniel'sBob
@Kropadope: Right. Or maybe they can’t afford to miss work or school and are responsible enough to try to avoid going to work or school with a highly contagious illness..
Kropadope
@Daniel’sBob: People take the flu shot and get sick. It happens frequently. In fact, in an informal survey among people I know, most of the time. Not just friends and family, patients and coworkers. Still many get it routinely. What other vaccine do you have to give every year? If you have to vaccinate every year against something, there’s something wrong there.
chrome agnomen
fortunately, bill maher is not the boss of me. i take from him what is useful to me, mostly the skewering of sacred bulls, and ignore the obviously dogmatic shit.
Mandalay
@skeptiktb:
Yes. And he also made a point of constantly reminding everyone about it, and kept saying how he wasn’t seeing value for his donation, and he whined that he didn’t get a personal thank you from Obama. And he moans that his personal tax rate in California is too high.
And now Maher is constantly genuflecting to Rand Paul. Fuck Maher, and fuck his dirty money.
He is not a good guy with a few oddball opinions. He is a vile, ill-informed, dangerous wacko who happens to have a liberal perspective on some issues. Maher is a really nasty piece of work.
Daniel'sBob
@Kropadope: Not denying that. Your point seemed to be that most people’s motivation for getting a flu shot is to avoid a couple of day’s discomfort. My experience may not be typical and I haven’t had the flu much since I was a kid, but for me it was always more like a week of agony and another 3-5 days of discomfort. Never had a reaction to a flu shot so I can’t compare, but I can’t take a week off from life if there’s a good chance of avoiding it.
Kropadope
@Mandalay: I can’t wrap my head around the idea he doesn’t like NASA. NASA?!?!?
qtip
This is the same thing most people here are accusing Maher of doing: lumping everyone in a group together and associating the behavior of some with the entire group.
Irony Abounds
@Amir Khalid: Sorry but you’re completely misrepresenting Maher. He does not lump all Muslims together. On the show with Affleck Maher and Harris make it clear that not all Muslims believed in the horrible, hateful misogynistic views that should be condemned. Rather they pointed out how the percentage of Muslims that did support those views were a significant minority, a far higher percentage than plagues the theocrats of other religions, and in that view he is dead on. The percentage can be argued, but there is no doubt that a very significant percentage of Muslims believe apostates should be killed and whose treatment of women is deplorable. The tide of fundamentalism is rising even in “moderate” Indonesia. There are unquestionably many Muslim countries where is a suppression of civil liberties in the name of Islam. Maher’s point is that if you are a liberal, and fight for civil liberties, you can’t just ignore the religious basis of much of the suppression of those civil liberties. Name a non-Muslim country where apostasy is criminal, in many cases with death as the penalty. There are approximately 23 Muslim majority countries where that is the case. Name a non-Muslim country that limits women’s rights the way Saudi Arabia and many other Muslim-majority countries do. Just because your version of Islam doesn’t support those views doesn’t mean there aren’t large segments of Muslims who do, on the basis of Islam. How can you decry that behavior and ignore the religious justification for it?
Kropadope
@Daniel’sBob: Maybe I’m lucky. I nearly always manage to avoid the flu when it runs through my home or work, even among the vaccinated members of each When I have gotten it, it’s never been for more than a day or two. What really messes me up are colds and sinus infections. The only time in my life where I get headaches and they POUND.
The Thin Black Duke
@Kropadope: Is the Earth flat in your world?
qtip
This is pretty pervasive in this thread. As you say, Maher and Harris are very clear they are not talking about all Muslims. They claim they are basing their points on polling done in Muslim countries (the Pew polls mostly I think). If you all want to dispute those polls, that would be an interesting discussion…but attacking Maher and Harris for quoting them is odd.
Kropadope
@Irony Abounds: If I remember that segment correctly (and I’m not gonna try to watch it again if I can avoid it), Maher’s main claim, as is yours, is that these problems are worse in Muslim countries and that people are misrepresenting his view. In fact, he misrepresents the views of his detractors.
No one denies that there isn’t significant oppression and violence in Muslim countries by Muslims. People deny that the best approach to dealing with that is blowing up Muslims. Get it straight.
Daniel'sBob
@Kropadope: You need to do a little reading about the flu viri (viruses?). There are reasons why influenza is so contagious and why “one vaccine to rule them all” isn’t possible–yet. They’re clever little bugs.
Kropadope
@The Thin Black Duke: Your reading comprehension is low isn’t it? At least your grasp of nuance is.
Kropadope
@Daniel’sBob: I know plenty about the flu viri and why they can’t have a single vaccine for it. That’s kind of a major part of my point, isn’t it?
Tehanu
@Daniel’sBob:
The last time I had the flu, at the age of 57 or 58, I was in no danger of dying — I only wanted to die. I’ve never been so miserable in my life, even when I had food poisoning, had to call the paramedics, and spent the night in the hospital. It was a whole week of complete misery and a second week of dragging myself to work because I couldn’t afford to miss 5 more days without pay (thanks to modern corporate “supplemental worker” policies). I never miss a flu shot now because I can’t face going through anything like that again without at least trying to prevent it. So far it’s worked although I know that each year might be the year that a new strain of flu sneaks past the barriers. I wouldn’t wish the flu on my worst enemy — well, maybe on Darth Cheney.
The Thin Black Duke
@Kropadope: No, I think I’m right on point here, but keep digging, please. I want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Daniel'sBob
@Kropadope: Well, “they” do their best to target the ones that seem to be spreading or particularly dangerous. I apologize for myself and the human race that we haven’t quite achieved god-like powers over the universe.
Kropadope
@The Thin Black Duke: the funny thing here is that this whole thing has started an argument here between me and someone who actually thinks you should never vaccinate. You know, how you’re trying to caricature me? Although, you’ve offered nothing but quips and insults anyway. I should probably stop engaging with you.
Gin & Tonic
@Kropadope: In fact, in an informal survey among people I know, most of the time.
And in an informal survey among people I know, never. People I know who get the flu vaccine don’t get the flu.
So, do we cancel each other out, then, and let actual science replace informal surveys?
Kropadope
@Daniel’sBob: I apologize for myself and the human race that we haven’t quite achieved god-like powers over the universe.
I’m saying we shouldn’t try. People get sick. People should get sick, it’s the natural order. People are punishing their body on an annual basis to try to conquer something that isn’t meant to be conquered.
Kropadope
@Gin & Tonic: If you think people don’t get sick from flu shots sometimes your either sheltered, delusional, or never work with patients getting flu shots.
The entire purpose is to provoke an immune response. Sometimes that response is too strong and results in a person getting sick for days (just like a flu). The vaccine also doesn’t take hold for a couple weeks, so many get the actual flu.
nancydarling
@Tehanu: My experience with the flu was much like yours. It was years ago and I was literally prostrate for almost a week. So many of the lymph nodes in my neck were swollen that it looked like a lot of walnuts under my skin.
I think a lot of people get a common cold and call it the flu. There are about a hundred rhinoviruses. There is no comparing a cold and the flu.
Gin & Tonic
@Kropadope: So that would be a “no” to actual science, then? In all your posts I fail to see one link, just anecdata.
Daniel'sBob
@Tehanu: Glad it’s not just me. Please don’t take that as implying I’m glad you suffered too.
I’m 62 with an eight-year-old (adopted) so I try to protect myself. Too many kids in school spreading around who-knows-what, usually because the parents have no alternative to sending them to school sick.
Daniel'sBob
@nancydarling: I think a lot of people get a common cold and call it the flu. There are about a hundred rhinoviruses. There is no comparing a cold and the flu.
I think you are correct.
Kropadope
@Gin & Tonic:
Perhaps you missed my edit, I thought I did it fairly quick. But, yes, I have a pretty fair grip on the science of this and people absolutely get sick from flu shots and despite flu shots. Sorry I don’t have the resources for a controlled study of my own. People who need flu shots sometimes even can’t get them because they’re going to not-high-risk patients.
How’s this for an anecdote? I’ve worked in medical offices and pharmacies where I was wheedled, cajoled, and shamed on a daily basis to put something into my body that I didn’t want to. Still never took it and haven’t had the flu for 15 years. Yeah, vaccines work, but that doesn’t mean it’s always the best thing for everyone.
satby
@Kropadope: They change the formulas of the vaccine to anticipate the most likely strains to break out in any given year. So it’s almost a different vaccination each time. Some of the strains you may already have some immunity to, some you may not.
Kropadope
@satby: Right, and…?
Daniel'sBob
@Kropadope: I get the feeling that if there were a repeat of the 1918 pandemic AND a vaccine existed that would protect against any strain of flu–you still would refuse the shot.
And I’m so glad you’re a true believer in natural selection.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Irony Abounds: I think Maher’s and Harris’s main point in that segment (I’m not going to watch it again, either) (and elsewhere) was that people claiming to be Muslims weren’t “honest” Muslims if they didn’t interpret the Koran the same way that Bill and Sam did. It’s a simplistic, and offensive, way to make an argument. And it invites and encourages bigotry.
Religious texts are complicated, almost by design, and often (at least apparently) self-contradictory. They are products of their times, and interpretations change over time. People claiming to be rational should recognize that and not bash others who likely have a better understanding of the historical and cultural aspects of their religion than they (as outsiders) do.
My $0.02. YMMV.
Cheers,
Scott.
kc
@Kropadope:
My bad; I though we were talking about a comedian, not Obama’s foreign policy.
Kropadope
@Daniel’sBob: Funny thing, there was a repeat in 2009-2010 and there was a vaccine and I did refuse it and here I am. Not only that, but that is the precise event I had in mind when I keep talking about shortages and the vaccines being unavailable to high-risk patients.
Oh, and congratulations on being the third person to repeat my point back to me or reinforce it, hoping to dissuade me. Here’s a cookie (you an delete it from your internet options menu).
Daniel'sBob
@Kropadope: 20 million died in 2009-10? Missed that one.
Kropadope
@kc: I thought I’ve been pretty clear on here that I think Maher is wrong on religion across the board. Mormons didn’t come up until you posted about them and while I’m sure he’s said awful things about Mormons, they weren’t evident in any of the clips posted here either. So, regarding your original attempt to attack “the lefties,” whatever that means (assuming you don’t mean southpaws), for not defending Mormons, I’ll defend Mormons all day when the time calls for it.
Stella B.
@Kropadope: If your “flu” only lasted 2-3 days, then it wasn’t influenza. It was a cold. Flu shots can not prevent or cause colds.
My mom did not get a flu shot in 2000. Unluckily, she got influenza. She spent 2 weeks on a ventilator in an ICU on multiple pressors with ARDS, DIC and multi-organ failure (remarkably, she’s fine now). At the time she wasn’t old enough for the recommendation of a yearly vaccine. She does get the yearly vaccine now….
Kropadope
@Stella B.: When was the last time you had a cold that gave you fever and vomiting?
My other comment is still in moderation hell but I can comment again at least, great.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Kropadope:
Vomiting is a very uncommon influenza symptom in adults. Fever and vomiting are, however, very common symptoms of food poisoning, especially salmonella.
Which is, again, the problem — a lot of people talk about having “the flu” or “stomach flu” who didn’t have influenza.
NonyNony
@Kropadope:
If it only lasted a few days it might be mild food poisoning.
My mother discovered that her bouts of what she had always called “the flu” disappeared when she started treating leftovers in the fridge more than a day old as trash instead of as lunch. Which occurred after she ended up in the hospital for some severe food poisoning. I’ve started treating leftovers the same way (anything not frozen goes in the trash after 48 hours in the fridge) and I’ve found that when I come down with the flu now I get the fever and the chills and the body pains but almost never the vomiting or the other intestinal distress that used to come with the flu. I haven’t had a case of the “stomach flu” or the “24 hour flu” in almost a decade at this point. I’m really wondering now if I was just slowly poisoning myself for 30+ years thinking that I was being frugal by eating my week-plus old leftovers the way my mother taught me…
ETA – I see the Mnemosyne just posted the same thing, only more to the point than my rambling.
Kropadope
@NonyNony: Food poisoning isn’t contagious and doesn’t run around a school or home, last I checked.
Kropadope
Let’s see if it let’s me post that other comment:
@Daniel’sBob: No, but there was certainly a pandemic. The vaccination definitely helped, though maybe not as much as it should have due to the vaccinate-everyone-for-everything crowd pushing it on people who didn’t need it at the expense of those who did. Though better treatment options and better knowledge of homecare also helped.
I billed out hundreds of them and even made a point to fight insurance company shenanigans to guarantee patients who wanted them could get them. None of this means that I or certain other broad swathes of the population needed the vaccine. Certain people need it and resource strain is a significant thing, especially when there are sudden outbreaks like that.
I had a woman come into the pharmacy blaming Obama for not personally making enough flu shots. Thank you for being a small part in delivering that experience to me.
Gin & Tonic
@Kropadope: Viral gastroenteritis isn’t influenza, last I checked.
Kropadope
@Gin & Tonic: Diagnosing me via the intertoobs, Dr. Frist? Think I didn’t go to the doctor ever? All this fails to address my core point that different people benefit from the flu shot to different degree and it may not always be worth it for everyone and in certain cases, like those of shortages, may be harmful due to misallocation.
Jc
Well, right now, you can’t see or stream Suoer Best Friends, in the U.S.
While Book of Mormon is free to play everywhere, despite Mormon objections.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Best_Friends
So whoch religion in this case, has suppressed freedom of expression?
brad
I’m a bit surprised no one has mentioned Maher’s abhorrent sexism yet. Along with his obnoxious missionary zeal for militant atheism it drove me away from his show long before anti-vaxxing and islamophobia became issues. I’m a guy, duh, with a lot to learn my own self, but Maher has a casual, 50s style, dismissive sexism that’s about his mannerisms and behaviors far more than his (presumable) stated beliefs.
donald
Maher was also a defender of Israel’s conduct in the Gaza war last summer. He takes for granted that if there were Muslim fundamentalists on one side, then the other side must be innocent of wrongdoing.
I have no desire to defend Hamas, which is an ugly rightwing religious organization with a nasty history of terrorism and anti-semitism. But a morally consistent liberal would examine the evidence and in the case of Gaza, condemn the crimes of both sides and not give Israel a blank check to kill hundreds of Palestinian children with the fatuous excuse that wars kill people and after all, Hamas “started” it. Maher is a lot closer to the thinking of Hamas than he could possibly imagine–he merely justifies a different set of atrocities based on his own personal ideology.
mainmati
@Gin & Tonic: Islam did not invent the Arab language (and its number system). Moreover, the “Golden Age” of Islam from roughly the 9th to 16th century had much more to do with the Arabs smartly incorporating and building upon the Greco-Roman legacy of mathematics, philosophy and science that they discovered when they conquered the Levant and this had nothing to do with Islam the religion, per se. Islam came from the Hijaz, which was a relative backwater of the fading Roman Empire. The Arabs were smart enough to create a culture built on a Western, non-religious foundation. Only much later, was there a backlash and stagnation in part because of the conquest of the Arab empire by the Ottoman Turks. The Umayyad Dynasty of the actual Caliphate would probably be horrified by the likes of ISIS.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
Meet norovirus, which can be passed from person to person, but is not influenza. I think your information about food poisoning is a bit out of date.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne: Again with the remote diagnostics. Maybe you’re right, why should I even bother going to the doctor when I have balloon juice?
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
So, just to be clear, you went to the doctor with a fever and vomiting and s/he told you it was influenza?
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne: Yeah, back in grade school.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
So the last time you had a cold or any form of “flu” was in grade school?
Phaedrus
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
You’ve got it exactly backwards. Sam and Bill were recognizing that people take these books seriously and literally, and that there are bad things written in them. They were rebutting the common argument that “no one really believes THAT part”. People do. Worse, many moderates who reject the horrible parts of these books still like to say that it’s “God’s word” – which actually strengthens the fundamentalist position. Sam is very clear on this – these are terrible books to live your life by, fundamentalists are bad people, but at least they’re consistent. The moderate position, that portions of the book are wrong.. but somehow it’s still “God’s word”… this position is just nonsensical.
PS both have made it clear that if everyone were “God is Love” moderates they’d find other things to do with their time.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne: No, the last time I had the flu was back in grade school. I had food poisoning once, it was way worse. I’ve had colds since, they’re much different. I usually get congested to the point where I have a headache and a sore throat with those. One time I had this thing that was just my throat for like a week, that was awful. Chickenpox I barely remember. But yeah, I pretty much manage to avoid the flu. I’m sure my luck won’t hold out forever, but I’m comfortable with the idea that I may get sick.
Mnemosyne
@Kropadope:
So the fact that you’ve been lucky enough to avoid getting the flu as an adult means it’s no big deal and people shouldn’t worry so much about getting flu shots? Sorry, but that makes about as much sense as the parents in California who decided that since they didn’t know anyone who got whooping cough, their kids didn’t need to be vaccinated against it. Whoops.
And, again, if your co-worker shows up and complains that the flu shot didn’t work because s/he was feverish and vomiting all weekend, it doesn’t say anything about the effectiveness of the flu shot because your co-worker didn’t have influenza.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Kropadope: Nearly dead thread, but I can’t resist…
Were these “something”s vaccines? I hope you’re not a physician, nurse, or the like. I would certainly want to avoid a medical practice that had staff that didn’t want to get vaccinated… :-/
Nobody is arguing that vaccines are “always the best thing for everyone.” Even the CDC has a list of people who shouldn’t get flu vaccines. That’s a red-herring.
But the science-based recommendation is that flu vaccines should be the default for people in the group where they’re recommended. Herd immunity works. Flu kills, and even when it doesn’t, it hospitalizes 200,000 people each year. Until there’s a permanent universal vaccine, annual vaccines are the best way to go and the fact that we don’t have a permanent universal vaccine is not a good argument against getting the annual shot.
You seem to be defending Maher, yet arguing the opposite of what he has said:
Are you really on his side, or are you just stirring the pot here?
Cheers,
Scott.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne: For the thousandth time, the flu is different.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Phaedrus: I don’t think I have his comments on his site (as linkied above) as being “exactly backwards”.
Harris is saying his interpretation is correct and those who disagree aren’t “honest”.
YMMV.
Cheers,
Scott.
mclaren
@Baud:
Then you should be first in line to oppose Islam, since the Qur’an is littered with quotes that treat disagreement as oppression.
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. – Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. – Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. – 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God’s entirely. – Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. – 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you. ….. martyrs…. Enter heaven – Surah 3:140-43
If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. – 3:157-8
You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. – Surah 3:169-71
Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. – Surah 4:74
Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. – 4:76
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. – 4:89
Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. – 5:14
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. – 5:54
Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme – 8:39
O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. – 8:65
It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. – 8:67
Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. – 9:2-3
When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. – 9:5
Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. – 9:28
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. – 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. – 9:41
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end. – 9:73
Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. – 9:111
Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers….
As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. – 10:4-15
Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. – 33:60
Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. – 41:14
When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. – 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.
Those who are slain in the way of Allah – he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. – 47:5
Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. – 48:25
Muhammad is Allah’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. – 48:29
Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. – 66:9
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. – 98:51
Kropadope
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
All I said was that sometimes it’s not the best thing for everyone. Many wanted to argue against that. Since I’ve even made it a point to describe people who I think should get the vaccine, I don’t think any of my dissenters were under the illusion that I was arguing for no vaccination. If they’re arguing against my belief that some should and some shouldn’t get it and if they aren’t either deluded into believing I want no vaccination or aren’t themselves arguing for no vaccination, logically there only remains that they’re arguing in favor of universal vaccination. You know, the vaunted herd immunity that keeps coming up.
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
I worked in a retail pharmacy. I didn’t give out flu shots myself, but I regularly interacted with patients. I always observed proper hygiene and would never have come in sick, like when I had one of these colds I mentioned. I even described where I helped people get flu shots. I don’t know what more you want from me.
Kropadope
@Kropadope: I’m in moderation again? What gives? No bad words, maybe the two links was too many? But they were replies to two people on this thread.
mclaren
Mistermix remarks:
Notice the dishonesty here. Maher didn’t criticize Islamic believers’ efforts to proselytize for their religion. If Islamic believers want to try to persuade others to believe in Islam, great. Who cares? That doesn’t bother me and it doesn’t bother any sensible person, and there’s certainly no evidence that behavior bothers Maher.
What Maher specifically objected to is the way Islam treats people who disagree with its beliefs.
Let’s state some basic facts and pre-emptively debunk the documented lie that “only a small percentage of Islamic people do it”:
[1] In most Islamic countries, it is a matter of law that any believer in Islam who renounces hi/r her religon faces the death penalty.
[2] In most Islamic countries, it is a matter of law that religious police prowl the streets and hand out horrific summary judgments to anyone who violates Islamic religious tenets — judgments including chopping peoples’ hands off in public, right there, right then.
[3] In most Islamic countries, non-believers in Islam face legal sanctions and fines which must be paid for the crime of not believing in Islam.
[4] In most Islamic countries, non-believers in Islam face the death penalty for attempting to convert believers in Islam to any other religion.
Maher criticized Islamic countries for “behaving like the mafia.” I’d say the above behavior qualifies.
This is not “a small percentage of Islamic believers.” It’s most of the Islamic nations. Most Islamic nations have religious police. Most Islamic nations force non-believers to pay a fine, which is defined in the Qur’an and required by the Qur’an. Most Islamic nations levy the death penalty against anyone who tries to persuade an Isamic believer to another religion.
If you want to talk about “a small percentage of Islamic extremists,” their behavior turns out to be much more extreme than this.
How extreme?
The small percentage of Islamic extremists Westerns often cite are people who are completely off the wall, totally out to lunch. Imams who issue fatwas stating the sun revolves around the earth. Imams who issue fatwas against getting vaccinated for polio. Imams who issue fatwas claiming evolution is false. Imams who issue fatwas against playing football.
Source: “Top 10 bizarre or ridiculous fatwas,” listeverse.
Now comes the lie “Oh, it’s only Saudi Arabia.”
No, that’s a lie, and I can prove it. Notice that polio is increasing in India, Nigeria, Afghanistan and Pakistan. It’s not just Saudi Arabia. It’s not just Oman. It’s not just Dubai.
It’s the entire middle east. All these countries exhibit crazy behavior, and it’s because of Islam.
Show me the papal edicts banning polio vaccinations. Show me cardinals or bishops in Europe or America issuing proclamations that the sun revolves around the earth.
You can’t, because they don’t. Only in Islam do you find this kind of lunacy forced on people as a matter of relentless sharia, religious belief enforced as law by the state.
Kropadope
@mclaren: I’m sure you can find some choice quotes in the Torah or Bible too. I can reconcile Catholic teachings with people of any belief set who are of good character finding whatever peace or happiness they are looking for, in fact it is critical to my believing. A literal reading of the text of the Bible or listening to certain Church muckymucks might give you the impression that Catholics and other Christians would believe otherwise.
Thinking people in this world of all faiths can reconcile their religious beliefs with all the lovely humanist ideals society has come to embrace. Yes, there are problems endemic to many Muslim nations, however those problems are largely the result of poverty and disenfranchisement. This disenfranchisement isn’t only from their leaders, many Western leaders have had a hand in it.
None of this excuses the violence, persecution, and murder. The people guilty for those crimes should answer themselves. The current crop of violent extremists is now consolidating it’s power with American toys instead of answering to its people for its crimes. That is what this bigoted reaction to Islam has brought America.
Mnemosyne
@mclaren:
Uh, neither India nor Nigeria are Muslim countries. Nigeria is barely 50% Muslim and has a secular government. India is majority Hindu; Muslims make up less than 15 percent of the population.
And you should probably come see our measles, mumps, and pertussis (whooping cough) epidemics here in California before you declare that anti-vaccine hysteria is something that Muslims do. I’m pretty sure the assholes in Marin County who aren’t vaccinating their special snowflakes aren’t doing it because their imam told them so.
mclaren
@Kropadope:
And guess what? If Western nations refused to acknowledge any difference twixt religious and secular law, and tried to enforce those loathsome passages of the Bible with the power of the state, I would accurately describe Christianity as acting like the mafia too.
In fact, Christianity did act like the mafia up until the Reformation. Christians in the West prior to the 15th century behaved as loathsomely as Islamic countries do today — murdering and torturing unbelievers, or anyone even suspected of “heresy” (which turns out to be such a vague term that if, for example, you believed that God was the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, you could be found guilty of “the tridentine heresy” and tortured, then burned at the stake) or “schismatic belief” (as, for instance, the case of Giordano Bruno, who believed in a multiplicity of worlds with many different types of creatures on them elsewhere in the universe).
The Reformation changed that. Today, most Christians no longer act like the mafia. Today, the power of Western nation-states can no longer be used to torture or murder or oppress people who dissent from Christian religious beliefs. That’s actually a recent development. From circa 400 A.D. up to roughly the 17th century A.D., Christians in the West behaved like Islamic nations do today — and it was behavior that Maher correctly describes as being “like the mafia.”
So don’t expect me to back off just because you point out that Christians have behaved just as badly. If anything, that should strengthen our resolve against this kind of abuse of the power of the state to enforce religious oppression against religious dissenters or unbelievers. Because we in the West have a host of horrible examples, not least of which is the Grand Inquisition, that show us just how bad things get if we let this kind of religious mafia-like behavior take root in a society.
Islam needs a Reformation. They’re probably going to get one sooner rather than later. There are strong signs that women in particular in Islamic countries are refusing to tolerate this kind of oppression. So eventually Islam will moderate its behavior. That doesn’t change the fact that in most Islamic countries, that behavior isn’t moderate yet.
Want some hard cold facts? Let’s look at Wikipedia for the entry on “apostasy” in Islamic nations:
Source: Wikipedia entry for “Apostasy in Islam.”
Notice the facts: the vast majority of Islamic scholars throughout history have held that apostasy requires the death penalty. Only a minority of Islamic scholars disagree. 23 Moslem-majority nations as of 2013 make religious apostasy a secular crime punished by the state’s judicial apparatus.
This is not just “a minority of Islamic extremists.” This isn’t just “a few bad apples in Islam.” This is what the religion itself teaches in the Qur’an and in its associated hadiths. You can’t weasel out of this by trying the old Ferguson MO scam of “it’s just a few bad apples.” The whole system is rotten and needs reform. Maher is saying that. I think he’s right, and what’s more, the facts back him up.
mclaren
@Mnemosyne:
No, they’re doing it because of fanatical irrational beliefs, often fundamentalist religious beliefs. See “The Religious Right’s Anti-Vaccine Hysteria Is Reviving Dead Diseases in America,” 13 September 2013.
If you’re trying to claim that the anti-vaccination lunacy in America proves I’m wrong about religious fanatics behaving “like the mafia” (in Bill Maher’s words), guess what, Mnemosyne? You just picked the wrong example.
Your own example proves that what Bill Maher is saying is right, and what I’m saying is right.
Religious fanaticism is dangerous when it bleeds over from belief into action. People have a right to believe anything they want. They don’t have a right to act on all those beliefs — especially when that action hurts other people, as it does in Islamic nations, and as it does with Christian fundamentalists in America.
Get it clear people: tolerance applies to belief. It doesn’t apply to all kinds of action. We should be endlessly tolerant of religious people in America who think vaccination is against the sacred word of the Lord. What we shouldn’t be tolerant of in the slightest in religious people in America who refuse to let their kids get vaccinated because of their beliefs.
Kropadope
@mclaren:
As you noted, we worked it out. Let them.
Irony Abounds
@Kropadope: Ummm, we kinda sorta worked out our segregation issues, should we have just sat on our hands and waited for South Africa to work out apartheid? Which is not to say opposing the gross violations of civil liberties in most Islamic countries requires armed intervention, but just smiling while women, apostates, gays and others are abused without condemning their Muslim abusers seems rather wrong.
Phaedrus
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
I think he’s talking about a common practice by religious moderates to try and soft sell their religion when pressed in public. Some Muslims will say theirs is a religion of peace – but the Koran and the Hadith clearly call for violence. Ask them which is true, is the Koran wrong or does their religion call for violence, and you get convoluted answers (theology) that twist logic beyond recognition… a lie. Moderate Christians face a similar problem over Hell – how can a just God punish eternally for finite transgressions… most moderates rationalize that there really isn’t a Hell, or that it’s just “separation from God”. But the new testament is quite explicit – and if you ask if the Bible is true, they’ll say yes. Not all of these statements can be true – and that’s what Sam and Bill call out.
Kropadope
@Irony Abounds: Our role in helping end South African apartheid was divestment. Not involving ourselves was precisely what we did.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Phaedrus: IMO, it takes a special kind of hubris for an outsider to distill hundreds of years of religious doctrine, practice, teaching, etc., into simplistic claims of “dishonesty” by adherents.
I’m an atheist myself, but I don’t claim to be able to tell others what their religions “really” mean. I cannot imagine a case where such arguments would be persuasive to adherents. And, as I mentioned before, I think such arguments feed bigotry that is far from productive.
Maher and Harris are free to construct any argument they want, of course. They shouldn’t be surprised, though, if others don’t see (what they claim is) the self-evident righteousness of their case.
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
sm*t cl*de
There is a debacle developing in Kenya where the Conference of Catholic Bishops have decided that tetanus vaccine is an Evil Birthcontrol Conspiracy. Basically they’re reviving a long-discredited libel from the Philippines, where two decades ago the Catholic hierarchy decided to disrupt a vaccination campaign (partly in the hope of damaging the popularity of a politician who was seen as a supporter of the campaign).
Sometimes you have to let a few children die in order to save a zygote.
In contrast, prominent Kenyan Muslims came out supporting tetanus vaccination.
Phaedrus
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
Bill and Sam aren’t trying to tell anyone what their religion “really” means. And how hard is it to call someone dishonest when they lie…. (what does hundreds of years of anything have to do with it?).
Look, here’s an actual conversation I’ve had with a family member :
Me : “How can a just God burn someone like me in Hell forever, when I’ve only got one life time of sin to atone for – and besides, you know me, do you really think I deserve to burn in agony for ever and ever?”
Other: “Well, I think Hell is more of just a separation from God”
Me : “That’s not what Jesus says in the Bible – do you believe Jesus?”
Other : “Of course… but maybe it’s a metaphor?”
Me : “It doesn’t appear to be”
— long silence —
Look, Bill and Sam are calling out people who claim to believe in the Bible/Koran but then aren’t ready to face the actual horrible things in those books. They’re not telling them what the “should” believe – can you not see the distinction?
Someone who claims that they believe the Bible needs to be able to defend what’s written in it. I’ve had another family member (yes, large family, mostly christian of one form or another) claim that her God doesn’t condone genocide. I asked her about the Amalakites – and she said that God ordered them destroyed because they were evil, and worshiped a different god and would infect the Isrealites with unbelief. I pointed out that that is the text book definition of genocide, and she said, “well, it isn’t genocide”. Is that not a lie? This is a kind, smart, college educated woman… but when confronted with the truth of what it means if the Bible is true, she’s chosen to lie. That’s what Sam and Bill are trying to expose – the people who are willing to lie about their religion in order for it to fit into civil society.
Now, you may not agree with this approach, that’s your prerogative. But I hope you can see the distinction between telling someone what they should believe, and pointing out that what they profess to believe is contradictory.
Irony Abounds
@Kropadope: Ok, divestment , along with boycotts, the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act, and other forms of economic sanctions was not getting involved. Yeah, right. So where are the liberals calling for boycotts of Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries so we can use the same type of non-involvement used in the case of apartheid? And if there are liberals calling for that, I imagine they’ll get smeared with the same bigot label because, ya know, it really isn’t about the abhorrent human rights abuses in the name of Islam, it’s really just bigotry.
It’s funny, during his Politically Incorrect days Maher was condemned by the right because he suggested that guys flying planes into buildings weren’t cowards. Now he’s castigated on the left because he finds flying planes into buildings in the name of Islam despicable Guess the poor guy just can’t win for losing.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Phaedrus: We’re talking past each other.
I’ll just close by noting that argument about religious books and opinions are very old. If things were as clear-cut as “logic” and “reason” would seemingly indicate, then they would have been solved long ago. Religions are a social construct that arise in a particular place and time. Traditions are built upon them – traditions that evolve and develop a life of their own independent of the text. You’re rarely going to get someone of faith to be willing to apply modern rules of logic to a religious text – they’re not religious because of logic and reason. Religions are built upon faith and belief. They don’t need to defend anything about their religion to you.
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
Bobby Thomson
@Kropadope:
Gastroenteritis isn’t the flu.And even if it were, there’s a massive confirmation bias in your statement. You’ve left out all the people who got the shot and didn’t have any symptoms – because nobody mentions that.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Maher was right, though.
You can object to his tone, his delivery or his motivation, but the ugly truth is that he was right about Islam and he’s right about religion, period.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@CONGRATULATIONS!: The problem isn’t Islam or religion. It’s a relatively small number of (but still too many) people being attracted to simple solutions to complex problems and being willing to use violence to impose their views.
There are estimated to be about 2.2 B Christians, 1.6 B Muslims, etc. Only a small fraction of any of the religious groups are involved with violence against other faiths. Clearly, the faiths aren’t the problem.
HTH.
Cheers,
Scott.
qtip
Those that are involved in violence say that religion is part of their motivation…do you think their stated reasons should be given weight in this analysis?
Also, Maher and Harris are not just talking about violence – they are pretty clear that they are discussing the treatment of women, treatment of homosexuals, support for death for apostasy, etc. Have you seen the numbers from the now-famous Pew polls on how many Muslims around the world support death for apostasy, stoning for adultery, etc.?