Apparently there is very clear video of the police shooting of the 12 year old in Cleveland over the week-end which is not yet available to the public (nor do I know if it ever will be), but the USA Today write-up contains the following:
Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said the officer, one of two who responded to a dispatcher’s call, was less than 10 feet from Tamir under a gazebo when the confrontation took place He declined to say if the video matches the officer’s description of events, saying a full interview of the officer has not been conducted.
Neither he nor Chief Calvin Williams explained why police have not obtained a full statement from the officer.
I can tell you why- this appears to be the new standard operating procedure within police departments whenever there is a shooting. Remember this:
10 days in which the Ferguson PD Chief COULD have told the nation that St. Louis County was doing the investigation and that Officer Wilson had filed a report, but that it was up to St Louis County PD to release that Incident Report, as they were the investigating police department.
No information as to why a serving Officer in his department was involved in an incident in which he discharged his firearm in the line of Duty and then failed to report the details of the event to anyone.
You wait til your friends collect the evidence, you and your lawyer examine your options, and THEN you issue your statements. Reminds me of the line that I loved in Breakin Bad when they were introducing Saul Goodman to the show:
We don’t know if it was a legit shoot, and it may well have been and the kid was acting threateningly and they legitimately felt in danger, but why take chances? Officer Darren Wilson is a free man, after all.
skerry
But I’m sure he was a big, demon-like 12 year old. Tamir Rice was the child’s name.
ruemara
It was a black child. You know, an animal.
It can be very hard to deal with the knowledge that your country despises you.
lamh36
@skerry: dont’ forget “bulking up to dodge bullets”..
ugh.
Jack the Second
Of course, let’s not bring up the industry and the lobbyists and the cowards who have created a world where you can have it be a reasonable goddamn assumption that a twelve year old could have gotten his hands on a real goddamn weapon.
The Dangerman
I heard/read someplace that the little orange piece that tells people, especially police, that a “realistic looking gun” is instead a “toy” was removed. If so, a tragedy.
I don’t recall ever been given a toy gun by my Folks (and, to this day, the only gun in the house is a shotgun for trap). I don’t know why you give such a toy to a kid, especially with the orange thing removed.
Pogonip
Some news reports say that the dispatcher did not pass on the 911 caller’s info that the gun was probably a toy (so why’d he call?). However this is not confirmed.
Mike J
How many of the people defending the cop who killed the child complain on a regular basis about kids not being allowed to play with toy guns at school?
Lolis
Funny how police unions are the only ones supported by republicans, and it seems like they have their fingerprints all over this.
Bonnie
Has any heard about the racial make up of the grand jury? Was it all white? Or, were there one or two black people if any?
Howard Beale IV
Ohio is an open carry state. Therefore, the NRA should demand that legislation be passed that reroutes welfare payments be instead be used to insure the citizens of Ohio’s Second Amendments are fulfilled and give all citizens Glocks and a monthly allotment of ammo.
raven
@Bonnie: 3
Just Some Fuckhead
No Stand Your Playground rights here?
Pogonip
@The Dangerman: Yes, I believe that has been confirmed. An Ohio congressman has introduced legislation requiring that such toy guns either be rigged so the kid can’t take off the orange piece or to have the whole toy colored loudly so it can’t possibly be mistaken for the real thing (one hopes it wouldn’t occur to most kids to paint it over).
skerry
@Mike J: It doesn’t help when these BB guns (I’m not sure they really should be called “toys”) are replicas of real guns. I read that Tamir Rice had an Airlift BB “pistol” gun. Different accounts about whether the orange tip was there or had been removed.
When I think of toy guns, I remember the cap guns we had as kids. You put a paper roll in it and when the trigger was pulled, it made a small sound and smoke. No projectile. We had BB guns, but knew that those shot stuff. Mostly paper plates and cans, but were made fully aware that it could “take out an eye”. Used only under supervision. Definitely not in the toy category. But that was a long time ago.
Scott Peterson
@Bonnie:
“The grand jury consists of six white men, three white women, two black women and one black man. Nine votes are needed to indict.”
cbsnews.com/news/ferguson-case-racial-and-gender-makeup-of-grand-jury-revealed/
Apparently, all three black jurors voted to indict.
Mike J
@skerry: We had .22s and knew that even a tiny gun like that could kill people. My public high school had a firing range in the armory.
Pogonip
@Jack the Second: Well, I must differ with you there. As recently as the late ’50’s, kids routinely got on city buses with guns, heading out of town to go plinking or hunting–my brother remembers it. We’re Yankees, but in some southern areas it went on well into the ’60’s. The difference was that back then everybody was sure a kid with a gun would not be hunting humans.
Meg
@The Dangerman: BB guns are not required to have orange tips, since it can be used to kill small animals.
It is not clear if his bb gun came with it or not.
However, in an open carrying state like Ohio, what are the rules for calling cops on someone carrying a gun? The skin color of the carrier, maybe?
JPL
So according to the local Atlanta news, there is a protest downtown. It does appear to be growing but the news media did point out that it appeared to be peaceful, although there is language being said, they wouldn’t repeat. Really… wtf, wtf, wtf… See I can say it here.
Scott Peterson
@Scott Peterson:
From Wikipedia:
The grand jury, of course, was 75% white.
TooManyJens
This shouldn’t be legal. An officer who shoots someone in the line of duty should be required to give a statement within a short time of the shooting unless they are medically incapable of doing so.
We give them all this power and there isn’t even that tiny amount of accountability.
Pogonip
@skerry: Do they even make cap guns any more? The only time I hear such a sound is firework season.
raven
@skerry: I have an old 45 caliber colt single shot BB gun that looks very real to most folks.
JPL
@Scott Peterson: Supposedly, the makeup of the grand jury depended on the county.
Pogonip
@The Dangerman: I don’t believe it was a Bb gun, it was a toy, a currently popular brand–Airsomething.
That’s BB gun, not B-flat gun. This auto-correct is really getting annoying. It changes about every third correct word I type, but sails right on past real typos.
Kryptik, A Man Without a Country
I had a long thing to say further about…things, but Wall-E came on tv and between that and doggies adoring me despite being gone nearly a year, I realized how desperately I need some uppers.
Find someone you love or who loves you, everyone, because it’s moments like this where you need to be reminded that people care. I know it’s odd for me, Pessemist Supreme, to be saying this, but yeah.
skerry
@Pogonip: See my comment at #14. Airsoft pistol BB gun.
Pogonip
@skerry: Thanks!
The Dangerman
I didn’t hear it was a BB gun; I heard it was a toy. I don’t think a BB gun can be called a toy (yes, you can put your eye out with that thing).
A lot of talk, not a lot of FACTS; hopefully, we’ll know soon enough.
ETA: Fuck, that manufacturer makes some real looking BB guns and they most definitely have orange pieces on them. At least at manufacture.
raven
@Scott Peterson: How do you know that?
JustRuss
@TooManyJens: Hell yes. And if you’re 10 feet away from a kid who’s maybe holding a gun, why the hell wouldn’t you taser him before putting two slugs into him? I mean, I hate the way tasers have been abused, but their whole justification is that they’re less lethal than firearms. Seems like this would be a textbook case for breaking out the taser.
Lady Bug
@Scott Peterson:
The article is from August it mentions the ethnic/gender demographics of the jury, but obviously doesn’t point out how the Grand Jury voted, or how their vote might have split along demographic lines.
Mike E
I saw the 1st ad for Better Call Saul during last Sunday’s The Walking Dead…I hope it is as good as that little 15 sec teaser looked.
MikeBoyScout
Apropos, I’m done with this shit. And I’m done not doing more to stop it.
Somewhere in the left-wing paradise of the Pacific Northwest somebody is planning a protest to shut down the main arteries in and out of shopping areas. If such a plan does not already exist, I’m going to instigate it.
Black Friday? Fk it. Money talks. Bullshit walks.
Cops who shoot first and prosecutors who fail to prosecute gotta end.
And if the biggest shopping day being blown up can help to end it, then i’m going to take my shot.
Steve from Antioch
I ain’t no legal expert or nothing, but wouldn’t the Fifth Amendment present an obstacle to any rule requiring officers to give statements after they are involved in a shooting?
Keith G
If Tamir Rice did indeed put hands on, or mover the realistic gun after being ordered not to, this may well be considered a legal shoot.
But it is so haunting to consider that what might have been going through that 12 yr old’s mind at the critical moment is, “What? This is a toy. Let me show you.”
beltane
My ex-husband once bought our then 11 year old son an Airsoft gun as a birthday present against my wishes. Son and his best friend promptly got into trouble with it by shooting at a neighbor’s truck. I’m not exactly sure what happened but the neighbor must have scared the shit out of them because my son hasn’t touched that thing since. Whatever did happen, my son is alive and I will always be grateful for that.
Gus
@The Dangerman: Are you serious? I had a whole arsenal of toy guns when I was a kid, some of which looked pretty realistic. Of course, I’m white, so I had little to fear from my local police.
gwangung
@Keith G:
You mean like John Crawford did?
Gus
@The Dangerman: You can put an eye out with a BB gun if you’re an expert marksman or you get ridiculously unlucky. My friends and I used to shoot each other with BB guns all the time. Not saying it was smart, but a real gun is a ridiculous overreaction to a BB gun.
Steve from Antioch
@Gus:
BB Guns have changed since you were a kid, especially the newer airsoft variety. Many of them are indistinguishable from “real” guns. Check this one out: http://www.amazon.com/Sig-Sauer-177cal—System-Full-Body-Blow/dp/B003M6PZAO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1416972512&sr=8-1&keywords=sig+226+airsoft
TooManyJens
@Gus: As it happens, there’s a front pager at this very blog who lost an eye to a BB gun.
Still doesn’t mean a cop needs to kill a 12 year old kid, though.
heckblazer
Reports are saying it was an airsoft gun. Those things aren’t toys for kids, but replicas for collectors. They originated in Japan for guys who wanted to collect guns but can’t because of that country’s extremely strict gun laws; the best airsoft stuff still comes from Japan.
That said, even if the if had a real gun I’d say the officer screwed up in shooting him.
Gus
@Steve from Antioch: Wow, I guess. That is, indeed, a different animal.
Scott Peterson
@raven:
I was sure I had just read it somewhere reputable but haven’t been able to find it since, so I’m terribly afraid I may have pulled it out of my ass. Consider that part utterly spurious.
John Smallberries
We mock people who open carry as having small dicks, we are a nation awash in guns, we piss and moan when some yahoo with a gun shoots a kid on their porch, and then we mock cops who deal with the worst of society on a regular basis and when confronted with a gun doesn’t hesitate to pull the trigger. This is tragic, but just another example of our fucked up gun culture and the inevitable blow back.
Cops are trained to shoot when confronted with a gun. Change the training and there are probably a lot more dead cops. Get rid of the guns and that training might change. I am unwilling to change that training until we address the underlying gun problem.
Villago Delenda Est
The “police” in this country are out of fucking control. They answer to no one but the .01% they exist to protect and serve.
Villago Delenda Est
@Steve from Antioch: Well, the rights that everyone else theoretically enjoys concerning the 4th and 5th amendments were pretty much voided while I served in the Army, since I was obligated to piss into a cup every so often to prove that I wasn’t toking up.
Jay C
@John Smallberries:
Lotta latitude in that there “probably”, John: do you know, or know where we can find, any hard figures to back up this assertion? AFAICR, most of the cop-shooting deaths that have made the news recently have NOT been TV-style shootouts, but cases of cops shooting – to kill, with real firearms firing real bullets – when “confronted” with toy guns, or no guns at all. It strikes me as a doubtful proposition, to say the least, that “chang[ing] the training” would result in more dead police: it’s pretty much a certainty that it would result in fewer dead kids like Tamir Rice.
Snarki, child of Loki
@TooManyJens: “This shouldn’t be legal. An officer who shoots someone in the line of duty should be required to give a statement within a short time of the shooting unless they are medically incapable of doing so.”
…and there often seems to be state law to that effect. But hey, when you’re going to let people off for shooting kids, what’s a little “paperwork” violation? Why, next you’ll be saying that cops should be prosecuted for perjury or something! MADNESS!
“We give them all this power and there isn’t even that tiny amount of accountability.”
My opposition to lynching is beginning to waver.
dance around in your bones
@Mike E: saw the 1st ad for Better Call Saul
CANNOT WAIT. Saul was one of the most interesting characters in a pile of good characters – at least it’s one way for Breaking Bad to continue (although I know the show is set at least ten years before before Saul met Walt and Jessie).
Better Call Saul !!! (in his cheesy office, chasing ambulances…)
scarshapedstar
@John Smallberries:
Okay, but if a white person open carries in Ohio with a real gun, they get a handshake and a Medal of Liberty, not a bullet to the heart.
I suppose there’s a certain logic to ‘fake gun = no rights’ but I don’t think that’s what happened here.
John S.
My wife and I will NEVER allow a toy gun into our house or around our children. Not even a water pistol. Once you plant the seed that a gun is a toy, good luck trying to get a child to understand that it is not.
C.V. Danes
How can the shooting of a 12 year old boy ever be considered legit? Even if it was a real weapon he was holding, a 12 year old boy is simply not old enough to understand the repercussions of what he is doing. HE’S JUST A BOY.
Gunning him down should never have been an option. I’m deeply saddened that we live in a society where it is not only an option, but possibly the first option.
Rafer Janders
@Steve from Antioch:
Yes. You cannot be required to incriminate yourself.
Paul in KY
@JustRuss: If you truly thought it was a real gun, your taser is severely ‘outgunned’ by the real gun.
Egypt Steve
Ohio is an open-carry state. Where’s the NRA on this?