I'm old enough the Rams protest immediately reminded me of the scene at the 1968 Olympics. Will cause as big a freak? pic.twitter.com/qGI9JQMIjp
— Billmon (@billmon1) November 30, 2014
Well, it got noticed…
St. Louis officers association wants Rams players disciplined for "hands up" gesture http://t.co/XVCwXidYIr #Ferguson
— Ryan J. Reilly (@ryanjreilly) December 1, 2014
Hat tip to valued commentor LAMH36 for the second tweet. As the Washington Post explains it:
The St. Louis Rams made a silent statement about the decision by a Ferguson, Mo., grand jury not to indict police officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown, an unarmed 18-year-old, last August.
The decision has sparked protests around the country, but especially in Ferguson, which is just a few miles from the Rams’ Edward Jones Dome in downtown St. Louis. On Sunday, as they ran onto the field to play the Oakland Raiders, Rams players raised their arms in a “hands up, don’t shoot” gesture…
The Other Chuck
I have a gesture just for the St Louis Officers Association, and it only takes one arm.
lamh36
So the Rams angered there “paying” fans, so I glad Black folk dont’ pay to see the damn Rams.
Look, I’m not big on football, I root for my Saints, but I never watch a game. I barely pay attention to what their win/loss rate is.
But I do know alot of people who live and breath it all. The same people were outraged over the Ray Rice fiasco, or the Adrian Peterson fiasco, but who are not wondering who’s gonna pick up Ray Rice and if he’d be good for there team.
I wonder is there anything that will make people disgusted enough with the NFL to say “fuck ’em”..
I sincerely hope those Rams players DON’T apologize to SLPA…I say fuck the PA.
Bruuuuce
Disciplined? They should get bonuses!
I hope the gesture spreads throughout the team, and the league.
Arclite
Good for them. This has at least as much to do with the response by the Ferguson PD (which was 100% wrong and dangerous) that it does with the shooting of Mike Brown (which was most likely wrong, but at least there’s a sliver of doubt in there).
West of the Cascades
@efgoldman: mine takes two fingers, but on separate hands. I’d have also loved to see a Peter Norman raising his arms with his teammates here (i.e. a white Rams player). Can’t have everything. Kudos to the players who did protest.
JordanRules
I hope nobody apologizes and I hope it spreads – both notions noted above.
Goodell will likely fuck it up royally so I don’t expect any Adam Silver like swift action to appease anyone.
The Dangerman
…need to spend every available minute of their training their members in non-lethal tactics (such as pepper spray).
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
I was immediately reminded of Carlos and Smith in Mexico City also. I was just a pre-teen, but I remember it. I do hope it spreads.
PaulW
It’s interesting that the cops’ association is saying ‘oh we have First Amendment rights too’ and then they insist the league punish the players for THEIR use of the First Amendment.
Dear St. Louis police officers: stop shooting unarmed teens and football players will stop protesting your sh-t. #Ferguson
lamh36
@PaulW: oh and let’s not forget the usual “thugs” in place of the n-word bullshit.
Basically telling these players, ya’ll betta be good negroes instead of “n-….”
Violet
In the previous thread I quoted this bit from the police association statement:
The police are threatening the NFL, Rams and players. Serve and protect.
lamh36
Is Jeff Roorda considered a Dem in these parts? I know Nixon and McCullough are.
Wow. good to see some good ole fashion Dem based racism…smdh
BR
@Violet:
That statement reminds me of some of the premises of the book Endgame (which has some interesting analysis though goes off the rails at points), like these ones:
sharl
@lamh36: Yes, Roorda is a Dem. He just lost an election to be a state senator (he is now a lame duck legislator in MO’s version of the lower House; I forget what that is called).
Dems in that part of the country outside of the bigger cities and university towns are very conservative.
ETA: added a qualifier to the final sentence
Violet
@lamh36: Apparently he is a Democrat.
Suzanne
I like this, just as much as when the Phoenix Suns wore their “Los Suns” jerseys during the SB1070 fight. Fuck the PA. Spiky, acid-tipped dick recommended.
scav
Those Honorable policemen are not even waiting for the “good” people of Saint Louis to make up their own minds about the event, these Honorable officers are premtively announcing to the citizens, advertisers and others what the only good opinion and following action there must be in order to show presumably good and proper support of these same Honorable policemen. Fall in line everyone: Our Badged Betters have announced what opinions are freely to be held, voiced protected and served. I have also been finding it ever so amusing that those loudest in automatic and unconditional support of the police actions in Ferguson are often those equally loud and automatic in asserting they need unfettered actions to their Guns in order to protect themselves against Police and Government overreach.
JordanRules
I’m in one of those hopeless periods. And it too shall pass, but fuck why does everything black folks do become a threat somehow?!?!
I swear one day this shit will be in the DSM. Sometimes it feels like crazy racism and paranoia are every damn where.
Mike J
@sharl: People here keep telling me that Missouri is basically like part of the south. I went to college in Missouri, and the bootheel of Missouri is the south, but the rest is solidly midwest. Sadly, the midwest also includes Kansas and Indiana. There are racist fuckwits in every part of the country.
A lot of people who describe Missouri as “southern” don’t actually mean southern, they just mean it as shorthand for “something I don’t like.”
(I know you didn’t describe it as southern. It’s just been annoying me that people who have never been within 1,000 miles of St Louis have tried to tell me what Missouri is really like.)
TheMightyTrowel
Good on the rams! Also hi from Hawaii! Half way through a lovely holiday. :-)
Mike E
And good on the Washington NFLers who did this gesture months ago. Too.
Suzanne
You can read more about this Roorda fucker here. Opposes body cameras and got fired for being a liar.
Apologize to that clown, MY ASS.
beth
There wasn’t one white player willing to show some solidarity with their teammates and join in the gesture? Sometimes I feel like I should just apologize to every black person I see.
Wag
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
This. I saw the ’68 olympics protest live on TV, and it changed my 7 year old mind about racial relations, and how we need to treat each other. I hope that the present photos can do the same for my 8 year old son, too.
sharl
@Mike J: Agreed; calling MO’s politics “southern” is lazy, simplistic, and not terribly informative shorthand.
The pro-police white folks in the STL area sound rather similar to the folks I grew up with in the Dayton OH area, though maybe a bit more loud & proud with their racism than what I experienced growing up (although perusal of the comments section of the Dayton Daily News and other public fora will definitely reveal such ugliness). And of course John Crawford was gunned down at a Beavercreek OH WalMart just minutes from the house where I grew up. And then we can go further north and east, to where 12-yo Tamir Rice was gunned down in Cleveland. Further east and north: NYC, where we had stop & frisk, not to mention police-caused deaths.
Etc., etc., etc…
BGinCHI
Based on the score, it was the Raiders who should have had their hands up.
Yatsuno
@TheMightyTrowel: Welcome to my birthplace! I hope you enjoy! Maybe Lamn can recommend a few good places to go since she just got back from there. Or you could go couch surf with NotMax!
No apologies. Though something tells me Goodell is gonna force one out of them or levy some stiff fines.
JordanRules
I hope I am surprised but the only white player I could see showing public solidariy is Chris Kluwe who isnt in the league anymore. Somebody prove me wrong, please. Please!
TheMightyTrowel
@Yatsuno: spent last week with my cousin in Honolulu and now mr trowel and I are lazing about on the big island. It’s nice and cool here. Going back to 40c Australia is gonna suck.
The Other Chuck
@BGinCHI: Given the Raiders’ season, I don’t think you can raise your hands if you’re already dead.
Mandalay
@beth:
There certainly was in 1968. But like Smith and Carlos, Peter Norman was shunned afterwards for what he did.
Amazingly, in 2012 the Australian Parliament issued an official apology to Peter Norman for the disgusting way they had treated him for years after his overt support for Smith and Carlos:
ETA:
In a 2012 interview, Carlos said:
“There’s no-one in the nation of Australia that should be honoured, recognised, appreciated more than Peter Norman for his humanitarian concerns, his character, his strength and his willingness to be a sacrificial lamb for justice.”
Ronnie Pudding
The Rams should have concentrated less on politics and more on football.
Because they won by only 52 points.
Quaker in a Basement
@JordanRules: Like this!
Mandalay
@Mike J:
I can relate to that. I live in Florida and the number of self-appointed armchair experts who post endless drivel about Florida on BJ is amazing.
Quaker in a Basement
If the entire professional sports industry wants to burn down their whole proposition, they’ll go ahead and give the police that apology.
Tree With Water
I’ll be interested to see what-if-any reaction will be forthcoming from Goodell about this insurrection. Not long ago he’d have stomped them with big fines, maybe even suspensions. But I don’t think he’ll dare now. Not with the losing streak he’s been on, and certainly not over this issue. The players union will fight him if he does, and with a righteous anger. Should push come to shove, the percentage of players who are young black men will guarantee that.
But there’s no doubt the very stupid remarks by the police represent a gauntlet thrown at his feet. Birdbrain America will call for the players heads on a platter, and will be paying attention to whatever course Goodell takes. Count on it- the same breed of cat who lost their minds in ’68 will lose their minds over the Rams this upcoming week.
Debbie(aussie)
@Mandalay: ah! 2012 those were the days.
With regard to the title of the post: never understood why people ask the question.
Almost everything is about politics isn’t it? All the decisions that are made on our behalf effect so many parts of our lives. Politics is about how our lives are structured, from the everyday (turning on the tap, flushing the toilet), to how we are policed and the laws of same, right up to our duty, or lack there of, on the international stage. Politics is life. Why do so many not see this? Especially the small government, did it all by myself types. I don’t want to live in their world.
Ruckus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
As a white adult I thought it was perfect. Not only was I not offended I thought why is there so much bullshit about it? The reaction following and those reactions about Michael Brown and his murderer remind me about the Watts riots and events of the time. So many white people, even if they really aren’t racist can not even remotely understand the history and the day to day lives of people of color. They lack all empathy and concept that people may have completely different lives even in the same neighborhood because of their color.
RaflW
Retail sales dropped an estimated 11% for this Thanksgiving vs. last year.
Emphasis added.
With Black Americans making up 13.2% of the population, maybe the Don’t Shop on Black Friday protest worked. Who knows, but I’m not against trolling that as a reason to other sites…
Ruckus
@Debbie(aussie):
I don’t want to live in their world.
No one really does. They are just so delusional that they think they do. Of course they wouldn’t understand what it is that they don’t like about it. Delusional and stupid really is a crappy way to go through life.
Mart
@Mandalay: I lived in KC for three years right out of college. Then back to hometown Chicago for 16 years. Last 15 in West County (Whitey Tidey) STL. Given my early years in Chi and Pittsburgh, think I am about now an official moslty Missourian. Seems to me STL City and a lot of the County is mostly Dem and from Missouree. Rest of the State is on the other side of Mason Dixon and is in Missourah. The town I live in in STL Co is 95% certain Officer Wilson was lucky he only had to shoot that big black hulking brute twelve times before he stopped attacking him. He could of ran out of bullets, and then what? It ain’t easy talking to folks here.
Villago Delenda Est
The fascist swine of the St. Louis officers association can fuck off and die.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
I’ll repeat a comment I made elsewhere.
I wonder what would happen if, every time an African-American saw a cop, they put their hands over their heads and started whimpering “Please don’t shoot me, please don’t shoot me!”?
It sounds stupid – but imagine if EVERY SINGLE FUCKING time the cops went out, EVERY SINGLE black did this, deliberately mocking them in a way that couldn’t be construed as threatening.
jl
” Rams players raised their arms in a “hands up, don’t shoot” gesture… ”
Good for them.
The Raiduhs shoulda ran out and made the same gestures, given what happened to them in the game.
jl
@Phoenician in a time of Romans: Might work. However, I think a few cops would find a reason to beat up anyone who did that, and shots might ensue after that. And what would happen to any African-American who did not do that? Uh -oh..
Quaker in a Basement
@Phoenician in a time of Romans: The begging would be superfluous. Just raising hands or assuming “the position” would be very Gandhian.
Alison
@Phoenician in a time of Romans: You don’t think mocking the cops would piss them off? Think about it. These dudes are shooting black men for doing nothing whatsoever. What do you think they’d do if they were being constantly confronted with derisive mockery? And I don’t think asking black men to play-act begging and pleading for their lives is appropriate.
Fort Geek
Could be the players were just being cautious. Might have been some Ferguson PD in the stands. Got to be careful around those gunslingers.
wasabi gasp
At most, police should keep first amendment right criticisms within shooting distance.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
That’s why it requires solidarity – it’s a form of mass protest.
And, Alison, if they’re ALL doing it, EVERY TIME a cop shows up, it’s not “inappropriate” or “stereotyped”. It’s a way of drawing away the cop’s power and undermining the very heart of their control. It shows unity and control of the situation.
Cops WANT to be feared. Faced with the strength of a force like that, you either beat your head in defying it, or you roll with it and render it off balance.
What exactly are the cops going to do to stop it? Can they intimidate someone into NOT acting intimidated? I doubt they’re going to act any worse against people mocking them this way than they do against those who stand up and protest.
Alison
@Phoenician in a time of Romans: But most incidents are one cop, one civilian. I’m saying, if a single cop accosts a single civilian, and he does that, it’s very very likely that cop is going to get annoyed and pissed off and *at best* beat him up, and maybe much worse. You’re asking innocent people to put a whole lot on the chance that a cop will be chagrined rather than incensed. Look at how these cops have been acting – do you really think they have a conscience to even appeal to?
Violet
@Phoenician in a time of Romans:
Shoot them and kill them. Dead people can’t tell tales. Cops get away with murder. They don’t even need a reason to do it–they can just make something up after the fact. Dead people can’t say it’s not true.
JordanRules
@Phoenician in a time of Romans: What struck me about the 2 protest picks is how conciliatory the symbolic pose is now compared to the power fist of the twnetieth century civil rights era.
I’m loving your creativeness and willingness to commit some thought to what can be done and done by many. I see your thoughtfulness with regard to the power dynamics as well, I just think it needs a bit of tweaking. Something massive should be done though.
JordanRules
@Villago Delenda Est: I fucking love how your dagger is always pointed in the right direction. Always. I see very few bullshit beefs with commenters and both side-isms flirtations.
Sometimes, I really need that shit VDE! LOL I giggle and nod knowing it’s coming straight with no chaser eventually when you get around to commenting and today I needed that.
Debbie(aussie)
@Phoenician in a time of Romans:
Why not every person who has an interaction with the police, puts their hands immediately on their head?
Eta: after comma
Violet
@Debbie(aussie): That’s a nice idea but the vast majority of white people wouldn’t do it. It would be non-white people putting their lives in danger. Again.
Debbie(aussie)
@Violet:
You’re right of course. But sometimes one needs to believe/dream in the solidarity of mankind. Sigh…….
Violet
@Debbie(aussie): I think solidarity type actions with larger groups of people would work better. Safety in numbers plus better PR–which is part of the whole thing these days. Think back to the civil rights era and the protests and marches. Individual actions, such as the bus boycott, didn’t put the protestors in immediate danger–although there were dangers from walking long distances at night, etc.
? Martin
Wow, this is epic.
A week ago two officers rolled up on a 12 year old black kid and just shot him dead and effectively walked away, but it’s the officers that are the victims here.
Mandalay
Actually the pigs want even more than that….
If the NFL have any brains at all (and they certainly do where $$$ are involved) they will very publicly tell the pigs to go eat their own shit, and choke on it.
OTOH, I do kind of wish that they would issue a hasty apology, just to see the gigantic shitstorm that would follow.
Mandalay
@Mandalay: More wisdom from the pigs of the SLPOA:
This is how pigs react when people get uppity.
Debbie(aussie)
@Violet:
I agree. But these days any protest attracts those who will subvert its intent, whether by design or accident. You and I don’t believe that the protesters of Ferguson went out to protest by burning down shops. But someone did. And some how out of view of the national guard, even.Same with the occupy protests. How do we fix/get around this?
mdblanche
@Mike J: One important difference between Missouri and the rest of the Midwest however is that Missouri is the only former slave state in the region. St. Louis may have had some of the very few pockets of abolitionist support in any slave state (mostly German immigrants) but the rest of the state leaned toward the Confederacy and it was probably only the deployment of Union soldiers that kept Missouri from seceding. All this had a lasting impact even outside the bootheel. When she came to visit Washington, Bess Truman’s mother refused to stay in the Lincoln bedroom.
sharl
@Debbie(aussie): I saw some of those complaints:
Other tweets cited similar problems like this in other protests across the country (e.g., Oakland). To the limited extent I’ve followed this aspect, the only group I’ve seen specifically called out is the “RCP”, which I believe is the Revolutionary Communist Party USA (note: RCP’s Wikipedia entry “has multiple issues”) headed up by a guy named Bob Avakian. I don’t know how often he and the RCP are actually complicit in this kind of dangerous crap, but in those accounts I’ve seen where a name is attached to these agent provocateurs, it’s usually RCP’s and/or Avakian’s.
JordanRules
@Debbie(aussie): One way is better media and reporting. There is no way to subvert human nature 100% but there are many better ways to report a story that involves it and disseminate accurate and accountable information.
A better educated citizenry would also help.
mdblanche
Going from “we still need unions including sports players” to “vile union targets sports players” has to be the biggest mood whiplash between two consecutive posts I’ve ever seen here.
nodakfarmboy
@Mike J:
I’ve been to Missouri. Kansas City, not St. Louis. All I remember is that as soon as I crossed the Iowa-Missouri line, I started noticing a distinctive “twang” starting to enter people’s speech. Maybe it’s just because I’ m a quasi-Canadian, but it sure sounded a tad-bit southern to me. Maybe that’s why people lump Missouri in with what we’d call the “south.” Hell, they even play football in the SEC. So, while it may not be in the south, it seems at least a bit southern-ish.
PurpleGirl
I used to pass a police precinct on my way to the subway. I’d see all these cops sleeping in their cars, catching up on sleep because they left their suburban homes pretty early to get to work before traffic was bad and the expressway was crowded. I complained to a friend that I’d love to wake them up with a raised fist salute. My friend said “it’s a bad situation when a working class white woman wants to use the black power salute.” There were just times when it felt like the cops were an occupying force from outside NYC. (Yes, I still feel that way.)
Let’s go Rams!
Fred
As we used to say, “It’s a free country.” Or is it only free for gunslingers?
chopper
Uh oh. I hope these guys aren’t making the team ‘look bad’ according to the owners.
HRA
I celebrated the ’68 fists in the air as a young white mother who jumped up raising my fist among my children watching the Olympics. That led to my telling them about my own young days when I wanted to know why Robert a only Black classmate was not allowed to move from the street assigned to Black people in my home town. Was his Mama like my Mama? This is only a start of the questions and education by my parents during that time. So much more in my own experiences of the callous treatment based on skin color by others. Now I celebrate these Rams players raising their arms, too.
Sherparick
@BR: Yes, that is pretty well correct. Some of this language and attitude on the right is straight from the late 1960s, 70s, and 80s. I wonder if Roorda is going to get some push back on his use of terms like thugs and “discredited witnesses.” This is pretty much the Peter King (whose attitude toward British and Protestant authority in Northern Ireland was very different) trolling going on here.
Fred
@Sherpatrick:” Some of this language and attitude on the right is straight from the late 1960s, 70s, and 80s”…
…and 90s and 2000s and 50s and 20s and 1850s…
AxelFoley
@lamh36:
So very much this. Especially the bold.
LosGatosCA
@Phoenician in a time of Romans:
I’m guessing you’re white.
LosGatosCA
@Fred:
I’m assuming that question is strictly rhetorical.
AxelFoley
@Ruckus:
Nailed it. As a black man, this is what pisses me off the most.
The racists don’t faze me. Racists gonna racist.
It’s the supposedly non-racist white folks who lack empathy for non-whites that piss me off. Never taking the time to try–at least try–to put themselves in others’ shoes to try to understand their views and feelings.
People of color have no choice but to see white viewpoints. We’re surrounded by white folks wherever we go. Of course, this doesn’t apply to all white people. But it does apply to the majority of them.
And that’s why progress is so slow in this country.
It's Not The Fall, It's The Landing
Heard a new whine today from someone related to a police officer in the city of St. Louis: the extra hours they are putting in as part of their sworn duty as police officers are interfering with their ability to earn additional income from their secondary jobs!
(Although I do have some sympathy for people being asked to work 12-hour shifts many days in a row, this still seems like a “cue the world’s tiniest violin” type scenario.)
Emily68
And I want the St Louis Officers’ Association disciplined for supporting the idea that it’s OK to shoot an unarmed teen. But wanting ain’t getting, is it?
AxelFoley
@JordanRules:
Villago minces no words nor pulls any punches. Definitely, one of my favorite posters here.
Villago Delenda Est
@AxelFoley: I am humbled.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mandalay: The Cartmanesque “Respect mah authoritah!” just screams at one.
One of the things I learned when I joined the Army holding a commission was that respect is not just given to you even though you’re wearing a badge of authority. You will of course be deferred to as a matter of course, but you’ll only be truly respected, as a person, and as an officer, when you’ve demonstrated that you’ve earned that respect.
This is where the St Louis Officers’ Association has it all wrong. They’re demanding respect for the badge…when they’ve done nothing to earn it…in fact, by their actions, they tarnish the symbols of authority they wear and demean them, fomenting disrespect towards them.
They’re a gang wearing uniforms. They cover for their homies no matter what their homies do.
Pardon the expression, but they are incapable, it’ is clear, of self-policing themselves.
Mnemosyne
@chopper:
Oh, I’m sure they’re going to be disciplined much more harshly than Ray Rice was. After all, they took a political stance, while Rice merely beat up his girlfriend in public, and who gives a shit about some mouthy bitch getting what she deserved, amirite?
Plantsmantx
How long have they been friends, I wonder? Wilson was a plain ol’ police officer, and Roorda was a state senator. Were they friends before Wilson killed Mike Brown?
pseudonymous in nc
Perhaps the St Louis cops will really put their money where their mouths are and boycott policing the games and all that sweet, sweet overtime.
Nashville_fan
Punished for having an opinion? Wow.
Larry Tate
If you express a desire not to be shot, the police think you should be disciplined.
john fremont
@Emily68:And many citizens wanted a different prosecutor assigned to the Darren Wilson case. You know how much weight that carried.
My Truth Hurts
Bullies always cry the loudest because they always have the thinnest skin.
Patricia Kayden
@Bruuuuce: I echo your hope.
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
Sounds like the NFL told the officers’ association to pound sand.
jc
I’m a white guy who isn’t even into football and I thought those players made a powerful, emotional statement. I live on the west coast and yesterday I was walking near where a car was pulled over by a cop, and someone on the sidewalk yelled: “F**k the po-lice!”
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
@Mike J: Don’t like “southern?” How about fucking Confederate bastards?
That’s what the sonsabitches are, after all, southern or not.