Here are a couple of recommendations via email that I thought you might find interesting:
- Guest poster Vida Loca recommends this piece at Booman Tribune, and especially this comment by Tarheel Dem. The topic is how white supremacy is almost acceptable today.
- Friend of the blog Brian Glucroft sends a couple of pieces about China’s new electric police vehicle, which is a strange blend of Popemobile and Ferguson-style armored riot truck.
Open thread for the non-sporting life.
Karen in GA
Aww, look at chilly Iggy.
Amir Khalid
“For the non-sporting life” means no grumbling about Liverpool FC’s wretched form this season, I take it. Sigh.
That leaves grumbling about the fact that we’re between good movies in Kuala Lumpur. I’ve already seen Interstellar and Mockingjay Part 1 twice each. There seems to be no sign of Theory of Everythingor The Imitation Game coming here, alas. After The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug went on far too long and made me nod off in places, I await The Battle of the Five Armies without much eagerness.
Bob In Portland
Gee, racism being acceptable. That appears to have been a gradual change in the body politic.
I wonder what happened?
JohnK
You aren’t supposed to say racism, it’s like saying nazi or fascist. The neo confederates have gone berserk with a black president and they are back to their post civil war, lost cause playbook. Die already. Fecking republicans!
Yatsuno
@Amir Khalid: Did the censors allow Big Hero 6? It really is worth the watch.
Bob In Portland
@JohnK: Last night I was reassured by one of the commenters here that there is no fascist tendency in the US. Apparently liberals don’t like the word either.
The increase in racism is apparently not fascist. The widening division of wealth in the US is not fascism. The spying on US citizens by the government is not a fascist tendency. The prison population explosion is not a tendency towards fascism, nor is our belligerent foreign policy, or the restrictions of free speech rights or other rights. Not fascism. No siree! The control of our electoral process by oligarchs must not be fascism either. The increased restrictions which the right tries to put on women? Not fascist. Shooting people in the streets? Not fascism.
Relax, JohnK. No need to panic. No need to organize. No need to search out for plausible explanations to what happens. That would be conspiracy theory, another term to ignore because there are no conspiracies.
So, no, nothing has changed, everything is fine. Please use the door to the right.
SatanicPanic
Psssh, I don’t know where he’s been. Willie Horton was more openly racist than anything I see right now. Let’s be real, there are places in this country where it is an always will be acceptable, I know, I used to live in one. And there are places where it’s not, and getting less so. I know it’s their gig, but there’s a subset of liberal blogger that’s constantly looking for ways the sky is falling
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@SatanicPanic:
Unpossible!!11
Cheers,
Scott.
Mike in NC
I agree with the premise that we saw some progress in this country between 1945 and 1980. Reagan began the return of white supremacy, which the media at the time merely thought part of his package of “sunny optimism”.
Now it’s called “taking our country back”.
The old (white) people born in the 1930s and 40s — who reliably vote in every election — grew up in a segregated society and they damn well want to see it brought back as much as possible before they die.
NotMax
@SatanicPanic
It really is like unto a mirror universe Rodney King – “Can’t we all just stay in our place?”
Most evident today is the asses again emboldened to being overt and open (and more and more rarely called on the carpet for it). Swords and plowshares are passé, dogwhistles have been beaten into megaphones.
Elizabelle
@Amir Khalid:
Just saw Mockingjay Part 1 and kept wondering: am I watching Effie Trinket or Jared Leto in Dallas Buyers Club?
Also, Philip Seymour Hoffman was good in every single scene he was in.
Bob In Portland
@SatanicPanic: The sky is falling. It’s just falling too slowly for you to notice. Please use the door to your right on the way out.
Baud
@SatanicPanic:
I kind of agree with you. I don’t think people are more racist now. Rather, I think what’s depressing folks is the intensity and overtness of it now in areas where it previously beneath the surface, plus the lack of any significant negative reaction to it from society at large.
Pogonip
This is a public service announcement. Senility develops slowly. We lost at least 10 years treatment time for my mom because she wouldn’t admit anything was wrong. If your loved ones start expressing concern about your memory and want you to see a doctor–see a doctor.
NotMax
This is germane. Even the state of Texas won’t go a
bridgeflag too far. Yet.Amir Khalid
@Yatsuno:
Big Hero 6 had nothing for the censors to cut that I could think of. It’s really good, but in an outstanding year for movies It’s not quite among the very best. I am seriously impressed by the Hunger Games and Planet of The Apes series.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: Really, Bob? Which commenter said that? Was it when I said “Bob, I don’t disagree that there is a fascist tendency in the US?”
Bob In Portland
@Pogonip: Does that work with politics too? I’ve been trying to forget about BCCI, the Iran-contra scandal and other events, but I can’t. I remember warning fellow union members in 1992 about NAFTA. I should forget about it. If only I could remember to forget.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: Were you referring to this:
So who’s winning?
You think they’re so dumb, you think they’re so funny, wait until you’re running to the night rally.
Iowa Old Lady
@Baud: There’s an Iris Murdoch novel in which a character considers whether it’s possible to become good from the outside in. That is, we normally think of internal goodness leading to good behavior, so a person is good from the inside out. But if social expectations set boundaries on someone’s expressions of racism, maybe that also changes them a little inside.
Or maybe it’s just that hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue.
Frankly, at this point, I’d take it.
cckids
@Elizabelle:
No kidding. Just inhabits the role. I couldn’t help wondering what they’ll do without him for the final one. I know they had some footage, but not all of it, right?
Amir Khalid
@NotMax:
I wonder what would happen if some other group were to want licence plates that showed the Confederate battle flag and the words “The Flag of Treason 1861-1865”.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: Is this your way of saying that you were referring to my comment? You are saying that you took that comment to mean the exact opposite of what was said? Are you dishonest or obtuse?
Pogonip
@Bob In Portland: Hodor.
Amir Khalid
@cckids:
Hoffman had only a couple of scenes left to shoot when he died, according to the production. So they rewrote those scenes, and gave his lines to other characters.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: Is government spying a tendency towards fascism? Apparently not, because J. Edgar used to keep a card file of political enemies.
Is the increase of shooting black men a tendency towards fascism? Apparently not, because there used to be lynchings.
Are America’s many foreign wars a tendency towards fascism? No, Teddy Roosevelt liked to invade other countries and the term wasn’t even invented back then.
Is the increasing control of our political process by oligarchs a tendency towards fascism? No, because rich men have always tried to buy elections.
Is our exploding prison population a tendency towards fascism? No, they are criminals.
It’s like the global warming of our country. It was cold as fuck here in Portland earlier this week so it can’t be global warming. Nothing has changed here in America. Excuse me, I must paint my white picket fence now.
Bob In Portland
@Pogonip: You bet. Hodor! See you at the night rally.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: So who’s winning? The good guys, right? Thanks for the reassurance.
Elizabelle
@Iowa Old Lady:
If memory serves, there’s some (French?) fairytale about an evil man who put on a mask of good, and after many years of good works and kind behavior — to trick others as to his true nature — they could not remove the mask because the mask had become him.
Roger Moore
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’m gonna vote for “Both”.
Omnes Omnibus
@Roger Moore: Unfortunately, you may be right.
Bob In Portland
@Roger Moore: Yes, I’m dishonest and obtuse. There is no growing fascism in the US. Everything is A-OK. Absolutely. Things are swell. No reason to be whining about anything. You’re right.
Baud
@Iowa Old Lady:
I would say yes. Goodness is the result of habit as it is of anything else. If one is forced by social norms to act better, I think it generally forces that person to be at least a little better. Obviously, a generality, and can only be taken so far.
SatanicPanic
@Baud: They’re loudest when they’re losing. We saw it in California in the 90s with Prop 187. That was some seriously openly racist legislation and, not coincidentally Republicans were pushing a total dismantling of Affirmative Action at the exact same time. Now you could run like that in some backwoods county, but you’d have to be nuts to try running a statewide campaign on that. Which isn’t to say no one will try, just that they’d be totally irrelevant for voters. The nation will get that way too.
Baud
@Elizabelle:
Balloon Juice makes me a better person.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Yatsuno: Hey congrats! I wasn’t up late enough to reply “fer crying out loud get him a towel” to your announcement earlier. Which could have worked with either meaning…
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: Because our country is not getting more fascist. Absolutely. You would’ve noticed, right? This is the best America has ever been. I like those big flags on football fields right before the game but nothing beats a military overflight above the stadium.
Bob In Portland
@SatanicPanic: Three Strikes wasn’t racist, was it? And who cares about affirmative action? It’s hardly funded anymore.
D58826
Well we can all take comfort in the way the St Louis police protect and serve the community. Part of a long piece from Huffington
According to the cops/DA any contact with a police officer no matter how fleeting or inadvertent in a crowd situation automatically overrides the protesters constitution rights and makes it an illegal assembly.
NotMax
@Iowa Old Lady
Pretty much the premise underlying the character of Archie Bunker.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: Since you can’t seem to realize that referring to something I said as standing for the exact opposite proposition is bad faith argumentation, I really don’t feel like engaging with you any more at the moment. Adding dishonesty to lecturing and hectoring is no way to persuade people. I bid you good day, sir.
Baud
@SatanicPanic:
Hope so. I don’t see an end game for racism otherwise. I’d still like to minimize the damage until we get there.
NotMax
Should anyone want to catch any of the Peter Pan broadcast, it will be rerun next Sat., the 13th.
In the Wish I’d Thought Of It category is the wag who coined the name Christopher Sleep-Walken after his performance.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus:
Who’s winning?
Who’s winning in prison reform? Who’s winning in the quest for peace around the world? Who’s winning in race relations? Who won the last fucking election, genius?
SatanicPanic
@Bob In Portland: Well yeah three strikes was racist. We’re working on that. I don’t know what you mean by affirmative action being underfunded. The big issue was with UC admissions. Sadly, they won that one. For now.
SatanicPanic
@Bob In Portland: this is a good example of the “if we’re not winning on all things at once it means we’re losing” fallacy that a lot liberal pundits are into. Reality is a little more complicated than this.
Scamp Dog
@Pogonip: That’s a tough situation you’re in, I’m sorry to hear about that. My grandmother had some noticeable memory and cognition problems in her last few years, and it was hard on everyone.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: So you are agreeing with me or not? The ground seems to be shifting under your feet.
Great. You would have noticed if there was a growing fascism in our country. Right? Good day, sir. May the rest of your day be sunshine.
Omnes Omnibus
@SatanicPanic:
Not to BiP.
Gin & Tonic
@Omnes Omnibus: Last night was fun. Let’s do it again some time. Right?
Bob In Portland
@SatanicPanic: What are we winning?
Obviously, things change, some things for the better. Gay rights, for example. So, no it’s not getting worse. And there’s no global warming.
I asked in several comments about, for example, the massive government surveillance system that has grown in our country. But, really, as I mentioned, J. Edgar used to keep files on his political enemies, so nothing’s changed. Right?
Prison reform? They’ve been working on that for hundreds of years. No change. Just a lot of criminals.
But I can go on the internet. That makes me freer. And it makes you freer. So everything’s fine.
But if everything’s fine, why are BJers complaining about these things? Oh, because cops shooting black men in the street isn’t really fascism, BJers are complaining about something else. Nor is restricting a woman’s right to choice. It’s something else.
I gotcha. Hunky dory. So stop complaining all you BJers. Because Willie Horton was so long ago racism is traditional.
FlipYrWhig
@Omnes Omnibus:
Is pretty much Bob’s motto.
Bob In Portland
@SatanicPanic: So we almost back to 1994 so nothing’s changed.
You mean it’s complicated, I shouldn’t use the word “fascism”. Or I shouldn’t discuss it? Thank god the economy is so good. I mean, you and I aren’t starving, are we?
Omnes Omnibus
@Gin & Tonic: How dare you learn a foreign language. I suppose that because I studied French for years and some Frenchmen collaborated with the Nazis I must be a collaborator as well. Did I get the “logic” right?
Bob In Portland
@FlipYrWhig: You know, I’d confess to all the bad things I do if you’d only link to them. Your ad hominems are too general.
I shouldn’t be hectoring. This is no place to discuss problems in America. Hey, did you see the Ducks last night?!
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
You should change your nym to Vichy Omnes Omnibus.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Too much typing.
Pogonip
This is sort of related: the other day there was a discussion of how to get whites to vote Democrat, and what with2 deaths in the family I didn’t get to it, so here’s my opinion: it’s unpossible, and Democratic politicians should not waste time and money trying.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: Let’s all talk about the languages we’ve learned.
I learned Latin in high school and college. Five years of it. It’s no secret. Omnes, you speak a foreign language?
Oh, sorry, I won’t ask you where you learned whatever you learned even if you wave foreign language articles in my face. That would be unseemly. And, you know, others here are very sensitive about where they learned other languages. So let’s let sleeping dogs lie.
FlipYrWhig
@Bob In Portland: Cool story bro
Mnemosyne
@Amir Khalid:
I can’t remember if you’ve said you already saw Big Hero 6. I just found out that there was some slight tweaking of backgrounds, signage, etc. for Asian markets to make it a little less Japanese-centric since there’s that whole Japanese attempt to conquer the rest of Asia thing that people are still kind of pissed off about.
Omnes Omnibus
@FlipYrWhig: Do you think I should mention that I also speak a bit of German or would that be de trop? I’ll keep quite about knowing some Romanian as well – probably too close to Ukraine for BiP to handle.
SatanicPanic
@Omnes Omnibus: yeah, fascism under every rock.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
The election of Ronald Reagan.
I mean, I know you see Ukrainian Nazis behind every development in post-WWII American history, but Ronald Reagan, the man who kicked off his campaign in Philadelphia, MS, is the actual answer.
Baud
@Pogonip:
It’s not impossible. Obama got something like 30-40 percent of the white vote. I agree with you, however, that I don’t see a clear way to increase that percentage. We lost a lot of white Democrats to Reagan because Democrats embraced the idea of. civil rights. I think we may bleed white support now that women and minorities are increasing their share of political power.
Drexciya
Trenchant critiques of white supremacy by white people that think the Democratic party focuses too much on non-whites and spends too much time on race. Perhaps there’s a deficit of more challenging, honest writing from black writers or something. But somehow, I doubt it.
Back to my regularly scheduled tongue-biting.
Bob In Portland
@Baud: But Baud fascism isn’t winning here in America. That’s what Omnes says. Just look all around you. Nope. No siree. Everything’s fine. So let’s not have any talk here about people working in concert to deny people a livable wage, or have the rights to their bodies, or about the NSA. That would be conspiracy theory and that’s worse than using the word “fascism.”
We’re not in argument. Everything’s fine. So why is anyone complaining about racism or economics? We’re on that long, positive march to a better tomorrow.
SatanicPanic
@Bob In Portland: Surveillance state and prison state aren’t fascism though. They can be components of fascism, but they’re not de facto evidence of fascism. They’re just as prevalent in communism and there’s really no case to be made that communists are taking over.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: Not Ukrainian Nazis. So everything’s fine here in the US except for those non-fascist non-conspiratorial problems that occasionally pop up.
On our way to liberal victory!
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
As I’ve explained before, Jim Crow was fascist before fascism was cool. But you seem not to like it when I point out that for minorities, the US was a fascist police state long before the Nazis took power in Germany.
Pop quiz, Bob: which non-European country its own citizens into concentration camps solely on the basis of their race during WWII?
SatanicPanic
@Pogonip: Instead of trying to recruit lousy whites, we should be trying to make better whites.
Bob In Portland
@SatanicPanic: So if I use “totalitarian” instead of “fascism” we’re all in agreement?
Baud
@Bob In Portland:
I tend not to engage you. But since you directed your comment to me, I’ll say this. I don’t believe in imaginary scoreboards that tell us whether we are winning or losing at a particular moment in time. So this debate doesn’t interest me.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: You’re so right. Nothing’s changed for the worse. We’re getting better. No need to look any further. All you whiners, just shut up. Things are great, and if things aren’t great they certainly aren’t fascist. “Fascism” is a bad word. We shouldn’t use it. I’m awaiting approval for “totalitarianism.”
Howard Beale IV
All of Bob in Portland’s rants reminds me of this classic scene.
Pogonip
@Baud: You put your finger on one problem Democrats have right there: they tend to equate “female” with “feminist,” and therefore the Republicans end up siphoning off a lot of non-feminist female voters.
FlipYrWhig
@Pogonip: I think better economic conditions will mitigate some of the racist hatred and xenophobic panic that has been so vividly on display the past few years. But I don’t think that changing the sales pitch in the hopes that the “white working class” will vote D more often is going to work. The ones who aren’t voting D now aren’t waiting for a better set of promises; they’re just pissed off at the world and are voting for the R’s because they give them scapegoats. You can’t make them less pissed off at the world by talking to them. You just have to wait for them to start being less pissed off, and _then_ talk to them. In the meantime, talk to other people instead, and go about your business.
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: It is closer to Italian than it is to French, Spanish, or Portugese. I read it better then I can speak it because I can draw on my knowledge of French while reading. Also, some of it, I think, remains closer to actual Latin than any of the other Romance languages.
FlipYrWhig
@SatanicPanic: well said.
Baud
@Pogonip:
For whatever reason, it seems like a lot of women identify more closely with their race or class than with their gender. Not necessarily a different dynamic than men, but men aren’t subject to the same repressive social forces.
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
I’m starting to think of our fascist (or, pace Omnes and another version of this conversation, proto-fascist or pre-fascist) as being kind of like having malaria — once you catch it, you can keep it under control as best you can, but there will be occasional outbreaks and relapses. We’re never going to go back to officially required “separate but equal,” but we definitely have a lot of improvements to make.
Betty Cracker
@Pogonip: President Obama got a greater percentage of the white vote than McGovern, Mondale or Carter. Also, in terms of sheer numbers, President Obama got more votes from white people than any other group because whites still make up a gigantic portion of the electorate. It makes no sense whatsoever for Democrats to write off white voters, not if they want to win elections. It makes all kinds of sense to segment the demographic and target winnable portions of the white vote, though.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Changed for the worse starting from what date? 1980? 1992? 2000? 2008?
Twenty years ago, Michael Brown’s death would have barely made the local news. Now, it’s not only national news, it’s international news. That seems like an improvement of some kind to me.
Bob In Portland
This was the American Heritage Dictionary definition of “fascism” in 1975:
Nobody here in America wants the right-wing to exercise a dictatorship. Why, The Kochs want you to vote. Nothing’s changed.
And for god’s sake, there’s no merging of state and business leadership in America, is there?
And “belligerent nationalism”? Please we’re the world’s peacekeepers.
Three for three.
@Bob In Portland: What’s your definition of fascism, Mnem?
So all this argumentation is because you’re feeling real optimistic and I’m a Debbie Downer. You know, Cole brings up various fucked up things about America. You should talk to him privately. That’s great that everything’s great. By the way, the American Heritage Dictionary’s current definition of “fascism” has changed. So that’s one thing that’s changed in America even if you didn’t notice it.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: As I said in that (mercifully) now-dead thread: “I know this may strike you as odd, but I feel no particular compunction to share my family history with some random stranger on a pseudonymous blog, particularly with one who has spent nearly the last year calling me a Nazi. I’m strange that way.”
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
Yep. White voters are not a monolithic block any more than Black, Latino, Asian, or women voters are. Figure out which ones are persuadable and pitch your message to them, and a coalition could be formed.
SatanicPanic
@Bob In Portland: not really. I mean, maybe those things are a component of democratic republic. Who knows.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: If there is stasis then you don’t have to do anything. Not even think. After all J. Edgar’s card file is exactly like the NSA. It’s not worse. And certainly race relations are better than back in slavery. You’ve convinced me.
It’s not that we’re on the road to victory. We’ve WON!!!!
Thanks for the positive reinforcement.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
A police state that uses racism and violence to raise one population above the others. This fits the Jim Crow South because business interests were, in fact, allied with government in keeping the system going because it benefited them, especially in agriculture. Modern fascism is usually considered a development of industrialization, which is why I now sometimes refer to the US version as “proto-fascism.”
No, all of this argumentation is because you’re wrong. You’re both factually wrong and historically wrong. You read a couple of conspiracy books that blew your mind and now you think you can ignore actual facts and actual history in favor of your conspiracy theory.
Bob In Portland
@Howard Beale IV: Most of my attackers here remind me of the protagonist in Flannery O’Connor’s “A Good Man Is Hard To Find.”
But don’t worry. Everything’s fine.
SatanicPanic
@FlipYrWhig: thanks!
@Betty Cracker: this. we keep getting concerned trolled to go after the whites that we will never get the votes of, when there are plenty that we could do better with. Let’s focus on them instead of the wild goose chase the MSM wants Democrats to engage in.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: Could you name a few specific things that I’m wrong about? I’m all for self-improvement.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Who said there’s stasis? As I said above, fascism in the US is like malaria — we have upswings and downswings. Right now, we’re in a pretty nasty downswing thanks to 30+ years of Republican rule, and it’s going to be tough to get out of. But nothing lasts forever, not even fascism. Ask Franco.
Baud
@SatanicPanic:
I think one of the problems for Democrats is that they depend on white suburban money. People like to focus on corporate money, but I think this dependency can be just as restrictive.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
How about the current government of Ukraine is a Nazi government? As others informed you in yesterday’s thread, the neo-Nazi parties in Ukraine actually lost seats in the last election. So who are these other, undeclared Nazis that you’re seeing sitting in Ukraine’s parliament?
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
This is an important point, communications. Something that 40=50 yrs ago might make your small town paper police blotter but go no farther can now draw nationwide attention in minutes after it happens. It has two sides though. It allows anyone who wants to see it that racism is still very much alive and killing. It also allows racists to see that they are not alone, as if they ever were. So it gives power to both sides. It should be obvious which side is stronger currently but it gives some opportunity for change for the better.
Amir Khalid
@Mnemosyne:
Yes I did see Big Hero 6, but only once (in 3D). I was quite unaware of a tweaked-for-Asian-sensitivities version. But I’m surprised that Giant Evil Corp felt the need to do it. Those who remember the Japanese Occupation here are of my parents’ generation: my dad, a teenager then, would be 87 now if he were alive, and my mum would be 80.
Elizabelle
@Betty Cracker:
Prezactly. Don’t write the attainable white vote off, and sharpen your message so that you’re not disrespecting them by accident.
Be the inclusive party — we have that going for us, otherwise the NYTimes would not spend so much time writing articles like: “look, there goes (one) Hispanic or black or gay person supporting the Republicans! It’s a trend. Be scared, Democrats!”
SatanicPanic
@Baud: that’s a good point, I hadn’t thought of that. Further evidence that we need to urbanize.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: You’re right. Everything’s fine in Ukraine, or would be if not for that bad man Putin. There is no merger of business and government. There is no belligerent militarism. Everything’s fine there. Nothing’s changed except for the better.
At my age it’s hard for me to jump up and click my heels but I can still whistle a happy tune.
Mnemosyne
@Amir Khalid:
Okay, now I’m having some qualms that maybe I wasn’t supposed to say anything. Yikes. Kindly set phasers to ignore.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
That’s not an answer, Bob. You stated yesterday that the government of Ukraine is a Nazi government. Others pointed out to you that the neo-Nazi parties lost seats in the last election. So where are these other Ukrainian Nazis that you see in their government?
OMG, are they behind your couch? I bet they’re behind your couch, making faces at you!
Omnes Omnibus
@Elizabelle: This tracks with what I was saying in VidaLoca’s thread the other night. There are white people we need to write off. We will never get the hard core racist right wing (nor should we want to). We won’t get the severe god botherers either. But an inclusive platform of economic security and promotion of a sense of community should be able to draw a wide variety of people.
Bob In Portland
Nothing changes.
But, heck, they wore swastikas in WWII. So nothing changed. Everything’s fine. I’m so relieved, Mnm.
Howard Beale IV
@Bob In Portland: To me, this is looking more and more like the ST:DS9 episdoe “In the Pale Moonlight”.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: But you said it wasn’t. I’m agreeing with you. Those swastikas? Just flair. Everyone wants to wear some flair.
Bob In Portland
@Howard Beale IV: Sorry. I don’t have the DVD collection. Do you remember the “Star Trek” episode where everyone except Wesley wears those eyeglasses? How about “The Wire” or “Breaking Bad”? I’d suggest “The Sopranos” but my daughter hasn’t returned it to me yet.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Still dodging the question, Bob. You said yesterday that the government of Ukraine is a Nazi government. The neo-Nazi parties lost seats in the last election. So how is the government of Ukraine a Nazi government?
As you’ve said before, there are neo-Nazis everywhere, even in Russia. But your claim is that the current government of Ukraine is a Nazi government. Not that neo-Nazis exist in Ukraine, but that the government itself is a Nazi government. Put up or shut up.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne: Put up or shut up.
Another phrase that bob seems to have a huge misunderstanding of.
Pogonip
@Betty Cracker: I think we’ll find President Obama is an historical aberration, helped by the poor quality of his opponents. I don’t believe the pattern will hold true in future elections.
The big problem Democrats have is they made a deal with the devil, betraying their natural constituency. When President Clinton signed NAFTA he caused his party a huge problem, and not just among whites. He hurt people of other races too. So far Democrats have gotten away with this, because if you are black they’re pretty much the only game in town, but that could change.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: You know, when the Democrats control Congress nothing bad ever happens. That’s because there is nothing bad in our country that doesn’t filter through election results. Election results are the proof. You nailed it. And you don’t have to wear flair unless you want to.
You had trouble in school, didn’t you? Why are you fighting me? Nothing’s getting worse, certainly not in Ukraine. And not here in the good ol’ US of A. Weren’t you going to point to where I was factually and historically wrong? Please, because I want to be better every day to keep up with our better world of tomorrow.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Still not your claim, Bob. Your claim is that the current government of Ukraine is a Nazi government. Since you refuse to defend your claim, you obviously realize that you were factually wrong when you said that.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: And more cable channels. That’s better. Heck, they didn’t even have cable when I was growing up. Onward!
Baud
@Pogonip:
There’s no such thing as a natural consistency. The Democrats were the party of slavery and the Jim Crow south, until they weren’t. Coalitions shift, and they are shifting now. We just need to find a way to build one that is stable and that can come together to form a majority.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Thank you for admitting in front of everyone that you were factually wrong when you said that the current government of Ukraine is a Nazi government. I do appreciate it.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: But you said it wasn’t. So it’s not. It’s a freedom-seeking expression of the public will, those wolfhooks. It’s just a passing style. That’s great. Why do you want to fight with me about Ukraine? You said it’s great over in Ukraine (except for that bad man Putin). Hardly any fascists in the government at all. That’s great.
I would send out for assistance but there’s someone on the signal wire
And the corporation logo is flashing on and off in the sky
They’re putting all your names in the forbidden book
I know what they’re doing but I don’t want to look
You think they’re so dumb, you think they’re so funny
Wait until they’ve got you running to the
Night rally, night rally, night rally
Everybody’s singing with their hand on their heart
About deeds done in the darkest hours
That’s just the sort of catchy little melody
To get you singing in the showers
Oh, I know that I’m ungrateful
I’ve got it lying on a plate
And I’m not buying my share of souvenirs
You can stand to attention
You can pray to your uncle
Only get that chicken out of here
Everyone gets armbands and 3-D glasses
Some are in the back room
And they’re taking those night classes
You think they’re so dumb, you think they’re so funny
Wait until they’ve got you running to the
Night rally, night rally, night rally
What a paranoid, that Elvis Costello. He needs to write happy songs that aren’t about the “f-word.”
Omnes Omnibus
@Pogonip: @Baud: A lot of labor started flirting with Republicans after the Democrats supported civil rights.
Howard Beale IV
@Bob In Portland: That TNG episode (S05E06-“The Game”) was very lame-the only redeeming part was Ashley Judd was introduced in that episode.
DS9 really came into its own once Sisko got his beard, and gave Babylon 5 a run for its money with its multiple story arcs, the Dominion War and some very dark turns.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: Utterly dishonest. Not even hyperbole, just lying. Well done.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
No, I pointed to the fact that the neo-Nazi parties lost seats in the last election. You have no actual facts. Which is what I said in the first place. So thank you again for confirming for everyone here that you do not, in fact, have actual facts to back up your claim that the current government of Ukraine is a Nazi government.
Though I do find it funny that you point to a Thatcher-era Costello song to “prove” that we’re more fascist now than we were in the Reagan years.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: Everything’s hunky dory over there (except for bad man Putin). You know, I heard a joke about Putin by Jimmy Fallon.
No, really, everything is fine, and thanks to you I will keep reminding all the BJers when they complain about something in Ukraine or the good ol’ US of A. Don’t you like those big flags on football games and those military jetplane flyovers! But remember, breast cancer. We’re marching towards a better tomorrow!
Weren’t you going to tell me my factual historical mistakes? Please, let’s get better together!
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Still fact-free, Bob. But it’s what we expect from you at this point, so keep it up.
As far as the issues you have with history, have you figured out the answer to the historical question I posed for you at #71? Google is your friend, you know.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Howard Beale IV: I would have sworn you were going to link to this (6:07, autoplays).
Glad I didn’t bet! :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
(Given your ‘nym, I should have known! :-)
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: Oh, I’m sorry. That song no longer applies.
There is no one “on the signal wire” anymore. That was just Thatcher’s Britain. Same thing with corporate control on society. No problem with corporations anymore. Do you think Costello was talking about the actual size of corporate logos? Maybe there was a zoning problem about corporate logos in London in the early 80s.
@Omnes Omnibus: Absolutely. Costello was talking about something else. Maybe he was writing about corporate logos but wasn’t using them as a metaphor for something else. But why was he complaining about chicken? It wasn’t free range?
Hey, I’m really enjoying this. Everything’s better. My girlfriend wants to go out and get a bite to eat so I can’t sit here any longer. Thanks, everyone.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: How can I correct my fact-free self without you helping me by telling me what unfacts I’ve used?
Pogonip
@Baud: Maybe an anti-troll coalition? Bob in Portland can be the poster boy.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: I was talking about the Costello lyric. I was talking about what you yourself wrote. Bob, you’ve stared into the abyss too long. You are obviously willing to lie and mischaracterize what others have said in pursuit of your quest. Fact don’t matter, only the cause; right, Bob?
Bob In Portland
Well, technically any racial discrimination before Mussolini invented the term had to have been something else. But yes, you’re right. Nothing changes. No hopes, nothing to strive for, nothing to complain about. Let’s all join our figurative hands and march together to a better tomorrow.
Oh, and nothing’s connected to anything else. Enjoy your day.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
What part of 30-year downswing since Reagan did you find confusing?
But, anyway, I have to goosestep down to the knitting store to buy some fascist needles to make presents for our Nazi Christmas, so I have to head out. Good luck finding those Nazis behind your couch — I hear they can make themselves really tiny and hide between the cushions, so maybe you should try that next.
Baud
@Pogonip:
I think we’d be outnumbered. It’s trolls all the way down.
Mnemosyne
Before I go, believe it or not I have a funny Nazi-related knitting story:
When my ex-sister-in-law’s mother L was little during WWII, her family went down to spend the winter in Florida. Their landlady was very taken with L and hand-knitted her a beautiful cardigan … with swastika buttons. L’s mother didn’t feel she could turn down a handmade gift, so she thanked her graciously and there are photos of L wearing the sweater. L still has no idea how the landlady could not figure out that they were Jewish and therefore might be a little sensitive about swastikas in the middle of WWII.
Elizabelle
@Mnemosyne: That’s kind of hilarious.
Weren’t swastikas some kind of lucky symbol before Nazis appropriated them and ruined them for good?
Do you think the buttons were Third Reich vintage, or possibly earlier?
[Did your sister eventually replace the buttons?] What a story.
schrodinger's cat
Deleted; wrong thread.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: So it does apply?
You said it’s not getting worse, Mnem. Isn’t everything the same, at least that there are some things are a little better and some things a little worse. But everything’s pretty much the same, right?
And Trickle down. Elvis Costello wasn’t writing about trickle down, was he? He was writing about chickens and logos.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: Heh heh. Hope your sister-in-law’s mother never has to see the Azov Battalion. Heh heh. But they just wear swastikas, they aren’t really Nazis or fascists because the fascists lost the elections. I’m sure she’d understand. Or you could explain.
Bob In Portland
@Pogonip: Troll no more! You guys have convinced that none of this reflects America today:
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: What’s “Night Rally” about then? Community College?
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: Excuse me. I left out the word “not.” I was not talking about the Costello lyric.
VidaLoca
Reading this thread reminds me a little of the long-lost days of my youth when I’d go marching up State St. with my comrades, under the premise that we were living in a fascist dictatorship because Lyndon Baines Johnson was a fascist. Which of course was utter horseshit.[1]
Nowadays I think we have to be more careful about throwing “fascist” around loosely, because if everything is fascist then really nothing is. It doesn’t take long before the word loses its meaning.
However. I think a valid point is being made (by Omnes at least, possibly others) that the conservative movement is a proto-fascist or pre-fascist movement. To the extent that they succeed in normalizing white supremacy, they’re expanding their legitimacy and thereby expanding their abilty to gain and control political power. And that actually should concern us. That’s why I recommended the Booman post to mistermix.
The reason I recommended TarheelDem’s comment on that post is that TD is doing the heavy lifting of explaining the history of that movement, where it came from, and how white supremacy undergirds it. And that’s important information: if we want to fight back we need to know something about the history of the opponent we’re fighting.
Also: if we’re faced with a pre-fascist movement we have to take up the job of considering what a resistance would look like. What really is our analysis of the political situation at the moment, and what does that imply we should be doing about it?
[1] We also operated under the premise that J. Edgar Hoover was a fascist. Which is a more defensible claim. But still mainly horseshit.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: Who’s on the signal wire? And why did Elvis mention “corporation logo”? And what night classes was he talking about? And “night rally”, was he talking about the British equivalent to a football rally, like Homecoming and bonfires and cheerleaders? Boy, I bet that’s fun. What do you think he meant about “singing in the showers”?
I need your help, Omnes. Obviously, you know what the song is about. Tell us. We need to know. Maybe you can explain the real meaning.
And what did he mean about “South America coming into style”? Bikini waxing, that’s my guess.
Bob In Portland
@VidaLoca: Okay, I won’t ever throw that word around, Vida. Things aren’t this bad:
We have a black Democratic President now, so nothing can go wrong.
Bob In Portland
School of the Americas? That wasn’t fascist, was it?
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: Why the fuck are you badgering me about the meaning of Elvis Costello lyrics? Yes, Bob, the song is about fascism. My version of This Year’s Model doesn’t have it because I have the original US vinyl release. I do have it in my vinyl of Taking Liberties though.
Betty Cracker
@Bob In Portland: Don’t you have a girlfriend to feed already? Kee-rist!
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker: I’m killing time until the WI game. Sorry.
Bob In Portland
@Betty Cracker: She said she wants to hold off until around 4:30 Pacific Time. That’s not being fascist on her part, is it? Of course not! Here’s to a happy, relatively similar future to what we have today.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: Great. Now tell us what “Night Rally” was about.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: Read my fucking comment.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: Oh, but it’s about some other fascism. A fascism that has nothing to do with us here today because we don’t have fascism. Oh no siree. Not this kind of fascism, right:
You accused me of lying about the meaning of Costello’s songs. So if I originally said it was about fascism, what did I get wrong. Hopefully, Mnem is going to tell me about all the factual things I’m wrong about.
But this “South America is coming into style”? Bikini waxing, right?
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland:
Read this previous comment.
Bob In Portland
You said it was about fascism, but you didn’t tell me how I misinterpreted (or lied) about the meaning when I said it was about fascism. Please. And I really am wondering about the bikini-waxing reference in “Less Than Zero”. Was that about inflation? Please, give us your wisdom.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: Do you find that you persuade many people?
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: See here.
Omnes Omnibus
@Gin & Tonic: He has no interest in persuading anyone or having an actual discussion. He is interested demonstrating his self-perceived superiority over everyone else.
Edited slightly.
Bob In Portland
Remember Costello’s “Farewell America” tour? Heck, he keeps coming back here. What did he mean? He sang what he called was the “Dallas Version” of “Less Than Zero” when he played at Winterland on that tour. I’m still not getting how bikini-waxing fits into Dallas.
Yeah, Elvis Costello. We can maybe be friends with Elvis Costello as a way of bridging any philosophical gaps there may be.
“Trying to anesthetize the way that you feel.” What was that? That wasn’t about propaganda, was it? I was at the dentist the other day. Something like that?
Bob In Portland
Here’s the 1951 definition of fascism. It also doesn’t apply to anyone in America today:
“A system of government characterized by rigid one-party dictatorship, forcible suppression of the opposition (unions, other, especially leftist, parties, minority groups, etc.), the retention of private ownership of the means of production under centralized government control, belligerent nationalism and racism, glorification of war, etc.: first instituted in Italy in 1922.”
None of that applies today. And, heck we have TWO parties so we always have a choice.
And nothing really changes that much.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: Not around here. That’s why I’m going to switch and forget about all those things. Everything’s fine. You don’t listen to Elvis Costello, do you?
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: I just went through half dozen links to find that you were actually talking about me lying. Why don’t you just tell me what I’m lying about? Then I can stop pestering you. I’ll just stop lying about whatever you say I’m lying about.
“Blue Chair”. That song was about furniture, right?
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: Gee, you called me a liar. Tell me what I lied about. Or is it that it’s really you that doesn’t want a discussion? Remember, bro, we got Elvis Costello. His song, “Waiting For The End Of The World”. He’s a believer the in end times, right? That one was easy.
Betty Cracker
@Bob In Portland: Enjoy your fascist fries, authoritarian apple pie, dictatorial dumplings, illiberal linguine and despotic drinks. You monster.
satby
@Elizabelle: Swastikas are an ancient Hindu symbol that Hitler appropriated as a symbol of his “Aryan race”.
Edited to add: it was a little disorienting to see them all over when I was in India, including on the welcome mat at my friends front door!
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: @Bob In Portland: Read this.
satby
Somebody please get BiP his Thorazine, stat.
Omnes Omnibus
@satby: Fascist.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: Nope.
Bob In Portland
@Betty Cracker: You know, we were thinking of going over to the Vietnamese food cart. Why, I remember back during Vietnam when they said “If we don’t stop them over there they’ll come over here” or something to that effect. And here they are, just up the street! That’s why we’re fighting the war on terrorism. We want to stop them over there, right? And the war on drugs, too. Keep the drugs out.
Now, Betty, if you call me a Monster, I’m sure you have a reason. Care to explain, or was it just an ad hominem?
Omnes Omnibus
@VidaLoca: I am sorry your serious comment got lost in the BiP mire. It is a real potential problem and, as you note, it can lose its meaning if it is applied to anything that we think is bad and has a rightward tilt.
Bob In Portland
@satby: That’s not an ad hominem. You know fa.., er, totalitarian regimes have been known to put people in mental hospitals. The old Soviet Union did it, so I guess that’s Communist, right? That’s why Reagan shut down most the mental hospitals in California, right? He was being an anti-Communist.
You like Elvis Costello?
VidaLoca
@Bob In Portland: I don’t have the time, and I certainly don’t have the patience, to wade through the previous comments on this thread to figure out what you’re arguing for. So I’ll just ask: are you trying to say that the United States, right here, right now, is operating under a fascist system of government?
If you aren’t, I don’t see why you’re trying to split hairs with everyone else here.
If you are, I can only conclude (as I tried to insinuate in my previous comment) that you’re hysterical and immature.
Either way, I don’t see what you gain from the tactics you’re using. Everyone else is laughing at you. And that’s too bad because the topic of fascism is neither a laughing nor a trivial matter. But any chance you ever had of persuading anybody to take your position seriously went out the window a long time ago. If you’re trying to get something productive out of this debate you’re failing miserably. If you’re just trolling you’re doing a better job but fascism seems like an odd topic to troll people on.
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: Maybe one of the headliners here can produce a list indicates what is or is not fascism. Heck, I was an English major, I don’t want to abuse a word.
Mnem says that the Ukrainian soldiers wearing swastikas on their helmets isn’t fascism because the fascists lost the elections, or it’s fascism but not that kind of fascism. Because fascism doesn’t exist anymore. Nothing to compare it to. No siree!
Marching on to a better tomorrow.
satby
@Omnes Omnibus: LOL!
VidaLoca
@Omnes Omnibus: Meh. It was more or less what I expected. I just got back from supper, now I’m doing the same thing you are: killing time until the UW game starts.
satby
@VidaLoca: He’s much too pure to merely troll, he sees the TRUTH®. The rest of us are just stupid.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: totalitarian regimes have been known to put people in mental hospitals
As Russia does. Today.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland:
You asked me to point out a lie. Here’s a bunch of them. If you want to refute that, then show links to comment that say exactly that. You already turned a comment of mine on its head to try to prove some point and now you are doing it again. If you are wondering why you aren’t persuasive around here, your dishonest argumentation is certain one of the many reasons.
Omnes Omnibus
@VidaLoca: Go Bucky!
Bob In Portland
@VidaLoca: That was the old me. The 75 years of the military/CIA backing Ukrainian fascists. I mistakenly said that they were fascists. Apparently they were merely former fascists, even when they say they’re fascists. And helping fascists doesn’t make our CIA in any way fascist. They were just helping out. And listening in on our phone calls and reading what we wrote on the internet. That’s not fascism. And the privatization of government. That has nothing to do with fascism. In fact, I’m guessing that fascism is probably somewhere in some museum in a glass case. It doesn’t really exist as anything other than a memento of times past, which weren’t really that different than nowadays anyway.
But you’re apparently an expert. Tell me where the line is between fascism and America. Does everything have to be fascist to be fascist? And do you like Elvis Costello?
And using the word “fascism” is bad form around here. So terribly sorry. I’ll be better.
Gin & Tonic
@VidaLoca: persuading anybody to take your position seriously went out the window a long time ago
I think his attempts (such as they have been) to be taken seriously went out the window when he argued that HIV/AIDS was a deliberate biological warfare program of, variously, the WHO and the US military.
Betty Cracker
@Bob In Portland: I’m just fucking with you, bro. I know it would be beyond pointless to try to have a serious conversation with you. Enjoy your phascist pho!
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: Okay, I apologize. The current Ukrainian government is not fascist. They just use swastikas on their helmets. Probably the old Hindu good luck meaning. Gotcha.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Wow, Bob has no idea that when you’re fighting a civil war, not everyone fighting is part of the regular army of that country.
Somehow, I’m not surprised.
Omnes Omnibus
@Bob In Portland: In other words, you cannot find links to support your statements so you are deflecting with vague generalizations.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: They just use swastikas on their helmets.
They do? Surely a link to a photograph is forthcoming.
VidaLoca
@Bob In Portland:
So I’ll take that as a “yes”. How far back does this go? Was LBJ a fascist? Was Nixon? Was Reagan? Evidently it was an incremental change, I expect we can agree that there was no coup.
If we really are being run by under a fascist system of government, why haven’t they come and locked you up? You’re obviously a threat to the stability and good order of the system.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
I love Elvis Costello. “Oliver’s Army” is a concept song about something specific to Great Britain and British history. Do you know what it is?
Just to give you a head start, “fascism” is not actually the right answer.
ETA: Corrected “album” to “single” — I misremembered the title of Armed Forces.
VidaLoca
@Gin & Tonic: Oh. OK, gotcha.
Wait… Daltrey? Townshend? They’re in on this too? Good god, man, how deep does this conspiracy go?
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: Now you want to talk about AIDS? That was the old me. Me thinking that the US working on a weapon that would destroy people’s immune systems might have somehow been connected to AIDS. How silly. Just bad luck that Africans, blacks and druggies got it. Here’s a fun fact about AIDS that I bet you didn’t know. The virus was discovered independently by Robert Gallo and Luc Montagnier. But get this! Coincidentally, they worked in the same laboratory a few years earlier, on animal viruses for Litton Bionetics. What a coincidence!
Well, that was the old me. To think that the Department of Defense would work on such a thing. Tsk tsk to myself.
But I was thinking. If AIDS is a naturally-occurring virus, and Gallo didn’t invent a “non-refractory virus” that could defeat our immune systems, do you think that maybe Gallo came across AIDS while he was examining all those exotic monkey viruses for Litton Bionetics?
Nah. That was the conspiratorial old me. That could never happen. People would never do anything like that. We’re too good to ever invent a disease and then watch people die. No. I’m sure that Reagan was too imbroiled in another non-conspiracy to allow that. Or maybe it was some lone nut like the Anthrax thing that went to the two people in Congress who were against all that Homeland Security thing. Merely a coincidence. Just like AIDS. Just like Ebola has nothing to do with the Marburg virus.
Marching on to a better, albeit pretty similar and not so bad tomorrow.
Mnemosyne
@VidaLoca:
As far as anyone can tell, Bob read a book that convinced him that Ukrainian Nazis took over the US government after World War II and the fascism they imported keeps getting worse because Reasons. Actual facts do nothing to dislodge this belief.
Bob In Portland
@VidaLoca: All the way back to Buddy Holly.
VidaLoca
@Mnemosyne: Huh. Well that explains everything. Were the Bilderbergs involved? Cuz you can’t really have a good conspiracy until the Bilderbergs show up.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: And what book would that have been?
No, I said the military/CIA took over the Gehlen Org after WWII. But that was after WWII so they weren’t Nazis.
I see the light now. Mnem, you like Elvis Costello? Did you know that Omnes has the vinyl version of “Taking Liberties”? Costello wasn’t talking about people’s liberties being taken away. He was talking about inappropriate touching, right?
Omnes Omnibus
@VidaLoca: The Gehlen Organization features prominently, if that helps. (And, yes, Bob, I know it was real and that it was basically recruited wholesale from Gehlen’s intelligence units from the Eastern Front. I also know that Gehlen was a minor participant in Operation Valkyrie.)
Bob In Portland
@VidaLoca: There are no conspiracies. I got it. No one would ever work together in concert to make money from other people. Not on a major scale. No one would lie us into a war.
On to a better tomorrow because I’m not ever going to think about fascism and conspiracies.
Vida, I asked you to draw a line between fascism and not-fascism. Now we know that swastikas on Ukrainian helmets is not fascism but the Hindu good luck symbol, and considering how badly they fought that war in eastern Ukraine they need all the luck they can get.
So what is and what isn’t fascism, and what are we allowed to mention in present company?
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: Come on. That was after World War II so Nazism and fascism doesn’t count unless someone is on social security and they used to be a prison guard.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Uh, Taking Liberties isn’t a song. It’s an album title:
And you wonder why we question your interpretations of Costello’s songs? I’m pretty sure Kurt Cobain wrote a song about people like you.
VidaLoca
@Bob In Portland: But it’s kind of an important question. Many revolutionary movements in the third world have taken the time to publish some kind of document that basically says “because of developments X, Y, and Z it’s clear that the government we oppose does not operate under democratic norms any more, therefore we’ve determined that our only recourse is to take up an armed struggle to overthrow it”. This was what the colonists did in the Revolutionary War against Britain, they called their document the “Declaration of Independence”. They’re all fairly clear on the history and on the chain of events that led to the determination that things have developed to the point that democratic norms will not suffice. They also have some kind of, you know, proof.
Are you saying that you haven’t thought this fascism thing through that far?
Or are you just saying that the plane crash that killed Buddy was a CIA plot?
Omnes Omnibus
@VidaLoca:
They were really after the Big Bopper.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: Yes, and Omnes has a vinyl copy of it.
But I’m not quite sure what your point about “Taking Liberties” is? Album names have no meaning? Yeah, he probably just drew the name out of a hat. He would never waste a thought on an album title. Gotcha.
Onward to a somewhat better but not that much better tomorrow.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Well, here’s the track list for Taking Liberties. You work on your essay about how each of the songs is about fascism and we’ll tune in tomorrow to see it:
Side one
“Clean Money” (previously unreleased) – 1:57
“Girls Talk” (b-side of “I Can’t Stand Up For Falling Down”, 1980) – 1:56
“Talking in the Dark” (a-side, 1978) – 1:56
“Radio Sweetheart” (b-side of “Less Than Zero”, 1977) – 2:24
“Black and White World” (Demo version) (previously unreleased) – 1:51
“Big Tears” (b-side of “Pump It Up”, 1978) – 3:10
“Just a Memory” (b-side of “New Amsterdam”, 1980) – 2:14
“Night Rally” (from UK version of This Year’s Model, 1978) – 2:41
“Stranger in the House” (a-side, 1978) – 3:01
“Clowntime Is Over” (Version 2) (b-side of “High Fidelity”, 1980) – 3:44
Side two
“Getting Mighty Crowded” (Van McCoy) (b-side of “High Fidelity”, 1980) – 2:05
“Hoover Factory” (previously unreleased) – 1:43
“Tiny Steps” (b-side of “Radio, Radio”, 1978) – 2:42
“(I Don’t Want to Go to) Chelsea” (from UK version of This Year’s Model, 1978) – 3:07
“Dr Luther’s Assistant” (b-side of “New Amsterdam”, 1980) – 3:28
“Sunday’s Best” (from UK version of Armed Forces, 1979) – 3:22
“Crawling to the U.S.A.” (from soundtrack to Americathon, 1979) – 2:52
“Wednesday Week” (b-side of “Talking in the Dark”, 1978) – 2:02
“My Funny Valentine” (Richard Rodgers, Lorenz Hart) (b-side of “Oliver’s Army”, 1979) – 1:25
“Ghost Train” (b-side of “New Amsterdam”, 1980) – 3:05
ETA: Don’t forget to tell us about how Dave Edmunds adding a repeat of the first verse of “Girls Talk” to his cover version completely destroyed the anti-fascist message of the song.
VidaLoca
@Bob In Portland:
And I’m neither going to waste my time nor do your work for you. You’re trying to make the case that we live under a fascist system, it’s your job to define fascism (ie, do a theoretical/political analysis), show how it developed from the previous system (ie do a historical analysis), pose a solution — and the only solution that makes any sense is a revolutionary movement to overthrow the government — and show that alternatives to that solution have proven to be ineffective.
That’s your job not mine. And if you haven’t thought all of that through yet then I’m left once again with the conclusion that you’re hysterical and immature.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: Isn’t your girlfriend hungry?
Bob In Portland
@Omnes Omnibus: @VidaLoca: Did you ever read “Dreamer of the Day,” about the post-WWII fascist movement here in the US?
No, I’m not talking about third-world movements. I’m talking about America, and Mnem and Omnes and Gin and translations of Elvis Costello have all convinced me that there’s no such thing as fascism (except maybe that bad man Putin/Saddam/Osama/Lumumba).
So what is or isn’t fascist and is there a certain percentage that pushes the whole thing into fascism. I mean, Franco was a self-avowed fascist and I was in Spain while he was in power. Yeah, the La Guardia would come onto buses with automatic weapons to check IDs, but that’s because there was an internal threat. Our cops use semi-automatic weapons. That’s a whole different thing. That’s not fascism.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: You know, I asked her and she said she wanted some Pho around five.
You see what they meant? If not there, then here.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: Pho’s not dinner food.
Bob In Portland
@VidaLoca: Well, I had thought it through, have studied it for several decades, heck I even have a copy of George Seldes’ FACTS AND FASCISM from 1943 but apparently the old definitions don’t apply. That’s what the BJers all seem to agree. Maybe there just isn’t anything that can be called fascist anymore. Not if you can’t identify anything that’s fascist.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: And yet they serve it for dinner. Nothing is as it was, except everything is the same. Thanks, Gin.
Bob In Portland
@VidaLoca: I’ll just have to rely on Mnem’s wisdom, then.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
I have to say, it’s pretty astounding how every single thing I say goes in one ear and out the other with you. You can parrot slogans, but you don’t actually understand anything you’re saying. It’s like talking to Otto from A Fish Called Wanda.
Darkrose
@Pogonip: Thank you for saying this. I occasionally wonder what would have happened if we hadn’t ignored that “something’s not right” feeling about my mother for as long as we did.
FlipYrWhig
@Gin & Tonic: expectations about what qualifies as dinner are fascist.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: Mr. Manfranchensen!
VidaLoca
@Bob In Portland: You’re going to have to do better than this, or come off as being just as bug-fuck nuts as the Symbionese Liberation Army or the Weather Underground.
And that distinction is relevant… how? The third-world movements at least did the due diligence and published their conclusions, they took themselves that seriously and were willing to present their reasoning for examination by others in order to be taken seriously by them as well. In America, the SLA did not do that; the Weather Underground did but proved themselves to be bug-fuck nuts to everyone but themselves.
Surely you can’t be less serious than the Weather Underground, can you?
Omnes Omnibus
@VidaLoca:
I have suspicions that he is a LaRouchie, so I think he can be.
Gin & Tonic
@FlipYrWhig: Just relaying what I learned from presumably non-fascist Vietnamese when I was in Hanoi.
Omnes Omnibus
@Gin & Tonic: Why were you in Hanoi, Gin? I find it suspicious.
VidaLoca
@Omnes Omnibus: Good lord. I didn’t know those still existed in the wild!
Omnes Omnibus
@VidaLoca: I bumped into some outside of Pike Place Market in Seattle in 2009.
Mnemosyne
@VidaLoca:
I had a friend whose brother joined the LaRouche cult (and it really is a cult). It was pretty sad — they had to be extremely careful in all of their communications with him or he canceled his once-a-year permitted visit with them.
VidaLoca
@Omnes Omnibus: Well, have to say that that would be one of the likelier places to look for them.
Aged, were they?
Omnes Omnibus
@VidaLoca: The one who harangued me was young, and she would have been pretty, but for the hate and rage twisting her face.
VidaLoca
OK, it’s football time. Later, all…
VidaLoca
@Mnemosyne: @Omnes Omnibus: OK, sorry to hear that. My last contact with that group was actually in the 1970’s and I really thought they had become an anachronism. I wouldn’t have cracked wise if I thought people were still getting sucked in.
Bob In Portland
@VidaLoca: Yeah, everything’s a laugh. Let’s not talk about fascism. It doesn’t exist anymore. I’m onboard.
Bob In Portland
Okay, no whining around here. Everything is beautiful.
Karen in GA
Hmm. Thread seems pretty dead now, except for the distant echo of laughing helicopters.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: Well, do you mean there are things that are kinda fascist, like cops shooting black men, but it’s not real fascism? It’s just something else. What? Let’s retire the word. Let’s invent a new one. What is it? Bad etiquette?
Fascism used to be a legitimate term. But now, as Vida seems to indicate, suggesting that fascism exists is some kind of mental disorder. I’m either a burnout from the Weather Underground or a LaRoucheite. I used to talk politics with Carl Oglesby, so I guess that’s a bad sign, but maybe that reassures someone here that I’m wacky to the left and not the right.
I’m trying to figure out what the problem here is. If I say cops shooting black men is fascist and it isn’t, can you think of a term that would better describe it? As I’ve demonstrated, the old definition of fascism, circa 1985, included a merging of business and government leadership, and we’ve had a lot of merging in the intervening years, they call it privatization, but I guess that’s not fascism anymore. And fascism only comes to power by the ballot box, so my delusions about the 75 years of the US-Ukrainian fascist alliance are just fantasies based on an incorrect definition in the American Heritage Dictionary and an article in The Nation and a bunch of books I’ve read.
Sometimes I think that some people here don’t want to talk about fascism because it makes them nervous. Betty calls me a monster because I talk about it. Sort of like the guy crawling onto the back of the truck at the end of the original “Invasion Of The Body Snatchers”. If you accept the term “fascist” then you’re that guy on the back of the truck, and who wants to be that? I’m not sure why everyone’s so scared of the term, or why none of you can define fascism but damned sure know what isn’t fascism. Like the swastikas on the Ukrainian helmets, right Mnem?
But, of course, most human societies are organized around what could be called fascistic tendencies or rules. A small ruling class, a lot of everybody else. Religion used to be the main form of propaganda, the king or queen being part way between heaven and earth, which was fine during Christmas carols, but not the burning-at-the-stake stuff. But Brian Williams telling you that Putin is a bad man isn’t propaganda. His daughter was Peter Pan. Hell, slavery was kind of fascistic, but since the term was invented by Mussolini then it wasn’t really fascist.
I’ve printed the definition of fascism, and nobody has discounted it but no one here has admitted it.
Bob In Portland
Milton Mayer.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: No, I owned the album once and I’ve got most if not all of the songs as bonus tracks on the CD reissues.
I found the line about taking liberties.
What’s the Russians and the Chinese about?
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret
You dine quickly.
But to the point – what you have consistently failed to comprehend is that the Maidan movement which began a year ago in Ukraine was precisely — in every respect — an organic reaction of the populace against “receiving decisions deliberated in secret” — viz, the Yanukovych decision to unilaterally break off the EU accession talks. It did not go from a demonstration of a couple of hundred young people in Kiev to masses of hundreds of thousands, weekend after weekend, all the cold Ukrainian winter, pouring into Kiev from all over the country at their own expense, without widespread popular support.
Betty Cracker
@Bob In Portland: Dude, I told you I was just fucking with ya. If I promise to go back to ignoring you full time, will you for once listen when someone gives you an honest answer to a direct question and not weave a silly jest into your vast conspiracy?
Omnes Omnibus
@Betty Cracker: Hey, I had a typo around comment 128, I acknowledged and corrected it a couple of comments later, and BiP still managed to make it a part of his conspiracy.
NotMax
@Betty Cracker – @Omnes Omnibus
BiP consistently finds an acorn and postulates a redwood.
Bob In Portland
@NotMax: Wouldn’t that be the oak?
Bob In Portland
I am constantly amazed that the BJers are so persistent in their beliefs against “fascism” and “conspiracy theory”.
Mnem is offended that I said Ukraine is fascist, and yet here we have Ukrainian soldiers with swastikas on their helmets. It’s no secret, but she clings to her belief. Why? What is her investment in this?
BJers here know that the Bush Administration lied to them about Iraq (and the reason for invading Afghanistan) and yet are sure that the US wasn’t behind the coup in Ukraine. Why? Because we have a black Democrat in the White House.
I am just amazed, constantly amazed at the determined, intentional ignorance that the people here seem to need. It’s always the same. A little attempt at discussing an issue and then word games or trying to catch me in a mistake and then finally namecalling. Never fails.
Swastikas on their unit banners, swastikas on their helmets. But Mnem says, no, they’re not fascist because most fascist candidates lost in the last election. That’s bizarre logic. Did Pinochet get elected into power? Of course not, but once he was in power he kept winning, but that’s a different story. My only conclusion is that she has been propagandized so well that she doesn’t believe what’s in front of her. Michael Gordon, who cowrote the WMD articles with Judith Miller, is still writing for the NY Times. His name has shown up routinely on NYT articles on Ukraine. Shouldn’t the guy lying you into a war be under some scrutiny? Apparently not.
So what is her motivation to deny the fascism in Ukraine? Is it fear of what it means to admit that the US is a promoter of fascism? Part of her self-denial seems to be that things are somewhat the same. The argument goes like this: America fascist? Why we had racial discrimination before so cops shooting black men is no change. We weren’t fascist then so how can we be fascist now? I’m not sure how you argue that.
I’m curious why so many of these BJ “liberals” can’t admit what they’re living in. But since they’re in denial how can they explain their own intellectual terrors and roadblocks? The snide air of superiority of a writer like Vida is annoying, especially since he too cannot lower himself to actually discuss anything beyond the poor manners of using the word “fascism.”
I am sad about this, because it pretty much means that the very sector that used to lead the fight in the US against fascism is utterly coopted and unable to recognize the problem. They can’t even identify the problem. They are not allowed to use the word.
Bob In Portland
@VidaLoca: This.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: Maidan, even if it was an organic development (there’s another article floating around pointing to the snipers being part of the coup plotters, i.e., false flag), still doesn’t dismiss the fascists the US supports. And it doesn’t explain why the US supports fascists.
Granted, since WWII the US has sponsored fascist coups around the world. The Diems in Vietnam had been Japanese collaborators during WWII, as were the first governments of South Korea. And Japan. El Salvador. Guatemala. Right after JFK was eliminated there was a rash of military coups in 1964 around the world. We aided the generals in Argentina. You know, there are so many I don’t want to bring on my old repetitive stress typing. What would you call the Mujahadeen? Pretty fascist.
So it’s clear that the US is supporting reactionary, no, fascist elements in Ukraine for 75 years and nothing about that changed in Maidan.
But the issue isn’t about whether or not it was an entirely homegrown revolution, or if it was sponsored by the US before it occurred. The US has sponsored them subsequently as a means of disrupting Russian gas to Europe. It appears that it won’t be successful, as Ukraine went to the Russians, hat in hand, over the last week in an effort to get some gas. And the US was successful in stopping the South Stream.
The US is ready to risk another world depression in order to hurt Russia. In fact, between the EU and the US, it appears that they are trying to bring about another depression.
And in the end lots of Ukrainians, fascist or not, will suffer and die. Thousands already have. Poroshenko, if he cuts too many deals with Russia, will find himself at the end of a bayonet being marched off. It’s pretty clear the fascists have lost against the rebels and the US move in Ukraine are failing. But if Ukraine is reduced to a failed state like Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq and Syria have been, the US still wins. Having a failed state on Russia’s border is a problem for Russia, not the US.
Actually, a bigger question I’d like explored, if BJers could advance beyond their problems with the use of fascism, is ask them if they think our endless wars are good for our country or citizens, if our current state of emergency (we are still in a state of emergency declared in October 2001) goes on forever, and ultimately who directs the wars. We know that Syria, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan were on the agenda before Dubya even came into office. We’re fighting wars for our energy corporations. And hand-wringing here about it seems to miss the fact that the wars keep coming no matter who is in the White House. Congress never has to have a debate or declare war.
Meanwhile, our country is further in control of corporate money than ever, and unless you are ultra-rich you suffer. Democracy fails. I’m watching my country dying. I see the people who should be aware at best rearranging deck chairs.
Bob In Portland
@Betty Cracker: You know, Betty, I found this thread hilarious, so it’s not that I took anyone too seriously here. We’re sort of beyond that.
I can go to google and find a hundred images of Ukrainian soldiers wearing swastikas. I can find fascistic quotes from Ukrainian officials. I can point to the 75-year history of the US supporting Ukrainian fascists. It doesn’t matter to Mnem. Ukraine isn’t fascist to her. I presume most of my links aren’t followed.
I’m not sure if you were fucking with me when you called me a monster, or if Omnes was fucking with me when he called me an asshole, or when someone else questioned my mental health. It’s pretty irrelevant. You and the rest here are unchangeable. I find it sad and depressing that there is so much self-imposed ignorance here. I’ve got a daughter, she’s doing well in her business, but I hate to leave her what’s left of America. The smugness and refusal to discuss the destruction of our democracy occasionally makes me angry, but mostly I find it very sad. But maybe you and your children deserve what they are getting. Enjoy it.