Fox News wunderkind Andrea Tantaros on Torturepalooza:
“The United States of America is awesome, we are awesome. We’ve closed the book on torture, and we’ve stopped doing it. And the reason they want to have this discussion is not to show how awesome we are. This administration wants to have this discussion to show us how we’re not awesome.”
Everything is awesome, everything is cool when you’re part of a team. Unless that team is Team Obama, in which case you’re not awesome, bruh. I’m assuming she then called the president a “lame poopyhead” and after that refused to eat her broccoli until after Steven Universe was over, and OMG you guys.
Morning Open Thread otherwise.
Betty Cracker
That’s some weapons-grade stupid dribbling out of Tantaros’ mouth, but I wonder if it’s native stupidity or cultivated stupid for profit, as is apparently the case with Gretchen Carlson.
tbone
Forced anal feeding and rape is totes awesome, guys!
Alex S.
Joe Stiglitz on how China now has a bigger economy than the USA:
http://www.vanityfair.com/business/2015/01/china-worlds-largest-economy
RaflW
Every now and then, having read Fahrenheit 451 haunts me. This is one of those times.
cmorenc
Everything is Awesome! I love this
countrysong! And always root for the local sports team!My Truth Hurts
That her argument is basically “U-S-A! U-S-A!” and that it is neither satire nor scandal is a sad comment on the quality of the national discourse.
Wag
The moral of the Lego Movie is that everything ISO awesome when you’re part of a team, but it up to you to make sure you’re in the right team. And Lord Business’ team was the wrong team to be on, just as the Bush team was the wrong team when it comes to just about everything.
Joseph Nobles
Obama talking about it is worse in her noggin (and several other noggins out there) than Bush doing it. Jeez.
Elmo
You know what depresses me? I really want to post that drivel on my FB page for teh lulz, but my Fox Wingnut brothers wouldn’t get the joke – they’d be piling on with MurkaFukYa! cheerleading and virtual high-fives about her schooling the Murka-haterz.
And even thinking about it makes me ill.
Villago Delenda Est
Someone at Faux Noise (well, most of them less Shep Smith) needs to be waterboarded.
Extensively.
It will be awesome!
Cacti
We only torture for the awesomest reasons evar!
Svensker
@Elmo:
Same same here. Very sad.
rikyrah
At Eric Garner Protests, Some White Activists Are Being Called Out for Their Behavior
…But as the demonstrations continue, some activists are noting the ironic reality of a racist culture obtaining within the protests themselves. Ferrara, a first-generation immigrant who identifies as mixed-race but concedes that “I have a lot of light-skinned privilege,” says she is seeing white protesters talking over people of color at meetings or dismissing their concerns. And on the evening of December 8, outside Atlantic Terminal — where protesters were hoping to disrupt the Brooklyn Nets game across the street at Barclays Center — she saw some white protesters confronting people of color who were trying to lead the demonstrations.
“There were a couple of white dudes trying to take the [megaphone] from one our leaders,” says Ferrara, a member of the New York Justice League, which helped organize the protest. “Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think this isn’t a place for white and light-skinned folks. I just think it’s important to constantly be examining your privilege.”
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2014/12/at_eric_garner_protests_some_whites_behaving_badly.php
low-tech cyclist
@Villago Delenda Est:
And sleep deprivation for a week at a time, and forced nakedness in hypothermia-inducing conditions, and being forced to maintain stress positions after having one’s legs or foot bones broken…yeah, if the Fox crew thinks this is “everything is awesome” territory, they should get the full menu!
Tommy
@tbone: Yeah that sucks on like 100 levels. Torture. I’d like to ask all these “pro-torture” people to actually torture somebody. I think most would vomit at the thought of doing to another what they suggest. A few would get joy in it. Those that get joy in doing it, first we put in jail.
skerry
A young family (2 yr old child) has been displaced due to a fire in their home this weekend. No one was harmed, but the house sustained a lot of damage. It is amazing to see how the neighborhood has gathered together in support. So a bad news story followed by a good news story.
chopper
and yet evil will always triumph over good because good is dumb.
The Ancient Randonneur
Talking about torture is worse than torture. Being called a racist is worse than racism. It’s hard out here for a conservative!
skerry
@low-tech cyclist: Seriously? So torturing someone will prove to them that torture is bad. And simultaneously make the anti-torture people happy? Listen to yourselves.
I’d settle for them being taken off the air and having to learn to code to compete against H1B visa holders for a living.
Tommy
@skerry:
That is both I think accurate and funny at the same time ….
ThresherK
@Betty Cracker: That’s always the rub, isn’t it: What’s worse, a True Believer in their kid’s non-existant musical talent, or the Professor Harold Hills who sell them the band instruments and lessons?
The more cynical I become, the more I lean towards loathing the latter.
Mustang Bobby
We need to have an investigation to see if somehow The Onion secretly bought out News Corp and took over Fox News without anyone knowing about it because this awesomeness is some serious satire.
leeleeFL
I had a part-time job at a deli up to two months ago. Every shift, I ‘d walk into these stupid -itches. Best part of leaving a job I actually liked. Sad, no?
MomSense
@rikyrah:
Reminds me of that asshole young white guy at one of the Atlanta occupy gatherings who disrespected Rep. John Lewis.
I am not surprised this is happening at all.
balconesfault
Was she blinking her eyes in an odd pattern while she spoke?
Long … long long long … short long short …
Cervantes
@Tommy:
Here’s a relevant book: Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View, by Stanley Milgram (1974).
Steve from Antioch
The Obama administration will not try anyone for these crimes.
The Obama administration will not charge anyone for these crimes.
Hell, the Obama administration will not even name these criminals.
All that will happen is that people will huff their own smugness for a few days until the next shiny new story pops up.
raven
@rikyrah: Yea and the fuckers carrying their bullshit red flags can stick it too!
Shakezula
America is awesome until someone collapses the Awesome Field by pointing out non-awesome things about America, that’s why we have to silence anyone who might do so.
Villago Delenda Est
@skerry: These people are incapable of empathy, therefore they must feel the pain themselves.
Then they might understand what’s wrong about it.
Because as we’ve seen, to these twits, talking about torture is WORSE than torture.
They need to experience what my NCOs called “significant emotional events” to alter their perception of reality.
JPL
You know what else would be awesome, putting Hayden behind bars for perjury. It’d be awesome.
balconesfault
@Steve from Antioch: If the Obama Administration were to try some of these criminals, I could see the GOP Congress defunding the Justice Department.
Their base would love it. And most Americans would yawn.
Spinwheel
@Steve from Antioch: This should be the real story and the true reason for outrage. “This wasn’t done in my name” means nothing when we take no action to prosecute those behind this.
Tell me again how Obama’s legacy is anything other than “I admit this was a problem but I’m not going to do anything about it.”
scav
The “We Closed the Book on Torture!” is left rather nicely ambiguous as to what closing the book entails. Does it mean we were so awsome at torture that we just stopped because we were so awsome at it that neither we nor anybody else could ever compete at our awsome-initude so we just shut the entire book down for all times?
negative 1
A reminder — if President Obama can’t force Republican legislators, who are not beholden to him in any way, to vote for things they don’t want to, it’s a ‘lack of leadership’, If President Bush has no idea if the CIA, which is directly under the purview of the executive branch, is torturing people or even how many people, it’s not a lack of leadership, it’s ‘because he was innocent’. See the difference? Apparently the media does.
Patricia Kayden
@rikyrah: I’ve read about this before. What’s the solution? It’s great and heartening to see people of all races getting involved in the protests, but at the same time, some respect has to be given to those who are actually suffering from police violence, i.e., Black Americans. There has to be a balance between Whites participating in protests versus Whites taking over protests at the expense of Black protesters. Would love to hear how this was handled during the Civil Rights era.
Patricia Kayden
@scav: More importantly, if torture is all good and awesome, why would we have to close the book on torture? Shouldn’t she be condemning President Obama for not torturing “terrorists” after he took office?
MattF
And what’s really awesome is that this is a news channel. They ought to go back to plain old lying, like the Russians have.
balconesfault
@negative 1: I think the media by and large agrees that Bush lacked leadership – that switch was flipped with Katrina.
Unfortunately, they do continue to peddle the mythology that there was something Obama could have done to persuade a GOP caucus that was totally unified under the principle “Make Obama Fail”, no matter what the collateral damage to Americans, to support some parts of his agenda.
And of course, Obama gets no points for leadership for declaring (and apparently successfully implementing) on day 1 a policy of no torture. Not only from the media – but even from many on the left.
FlipYrWhig
@balconesfault: Sad to say that I figure the consensus view of Americans on this is the following: torture in general is bad but torturing a terrorist is good, because on the upside you find out information and bust up the dastardly plot, and on the downside, hey, at least a terrorist got tortured! And as a people I think we fundamentally feel like terrorists are Muslims, Muslims are terrorists, they’re probably plotting something or would eventually, so let’s stick tubes in their asses and show ’em we mean business. And as a people we feel the same way about cops and suspects: “they’re scary-looking and probably did something.” I’m not expecting an outbreak of conscience on these issues. Not as long as The Enemy is dark-skinned.
Shalimar
An appropriate presidential response: “Since Miss Tantaros apparently has a 5th grade view of the world, I’ll explain this on a level she might understand. You aren’t awesome just because you say you’re awesome. You’re awesome because you do awesome things. America has done many awesome things in the past. Torturing prisoners isn’t awesome, it’s one of the most obvious examples of evil we can conceive of. You can’t be awesome and evil at the same time. Please stop pushing for my country to be evil. Thanks.”
JPL
If Obama were not President, at this time, the report would be under wraps for fifty years. It’s okay to say why can’t he prosecute, but we need to admit, that he could have blocked the report.
@Patricia Kayden: Now you’re being silly. You know Fox folk don’t use logic.
Spinwheel
@balconesfault: “Doing the right thing is too hard” should be this administration’s motto.
Helmut Monotreme
So it’s “Let’s torture people who torture people to show that torturing people is wrong?”. Instead let’s prosecute people who torture people to show that torturing people is wrong, and that we take that crime seriously. It’s not “unrealistic” it’s the only way to acknowledge and begin to publicly atone for the crimes done in our names. People willing to torture, people willing to outsource torture to keep from getting their own hands bloody, are not reliable people. The question of whether they are sadists or just willing to engage in sadistic behavior for some alleged advantage is moot. Both answers reveal character flaws that should disqualify those people from being left alone with sharp objects much less conducting intelligence gathering activities with no oversight halfway round the world. Joining the intelligence services is not a license to kidnap torture and kill. That is the job description of a psychopath, not that of a person tasked with finding terrorists.
scav
@Patricia Kayden: well, she could subscribe to the usual two books (one cooked) solution to that little awesome quandry of awesome sauce. A Whole Lie-bury of Awsome!
Culture of Truth
This why Fox is always bashing America’s President, health care system, taxes, regulations, immigration orders, and foreign policy. They don’t want to talk about how awesome we are.
skerry
@Villago Delenda Est: smh
FlipYrWhig
@balconesfault: Oh, and on this, I’d like to figure out whoever it was that inculcated this “leadership” thing in the punditocracy, go back in time, and soak him with something noxious. It’s horrible, and it’s the only way they discuss every issue: who will Show Leadership? How do you Show Leadership? By having people do… something… that changes pundits’ minds, I guess? I feel like it’s an MBA thing: “leadership” and “vision” and so forth. So much bullshit that’s really just Great Man theory in a different guise.
Suzanne
I think Tantaros should volunteer for some torture, because apparently it’s AWESOME!
I suppose if you volunteer for it, it’s just masochism. But still: AWESOME!
bemused
Listening to rightwing cheerleaders is like reading those sugarcoated Christmas brag letters, “Speaking of my and my spouse’s glorious careers and our brilliant and perfect children…”
Mustang Bobby
Yes, we’re so awesome that we still use a system of weights and measures from the Renaissance, and we’re the only industrialized country that still does. Our public education is so awesome that most of our schools are on the verge of going broke so they are being taken over by religious fundamentalists who deny science going back to Galileo. We’re so awesome that we can pollute our air and water in the name of profits that will guarantee we have a magnificent funeral. We have more nuclear weapons than the rest of the world combined so that we can hold off assimilation by the Borg. Our criminal justice system is so awesome that we can incarcerate more black and brown people for smoking pot but guarantee that the robber barons who wrecked the economy get their bonuses. We’re so f*cking awesome that we put the exceptional in exceptionalism.
Feh.
Botsplainer
“The Aristocrats!”
Spinwheel
@JPL: why would we do that?
Blocking the report would have been far more honest than releasing the report and then choosing to do nothing about it.
dedc79
I’m surprised the CIA didn’t make the prisoners watch Andrea Tantaros segments on repeat as a torture mechanism.
Cervantes
@Patricia Kayden:
Goodman, Chaney, and Schwerner all suffered from police violence. Which wavelengths of visible light were reflected or absorbed by each of their skins?
Could not agree more.
Shakezula
@rikyrah: This is a feature not a bug of any sort of movement for equality. People my parents’ age dealt with it in the 60s.
I’ve known guys who’ve had to be reminded that it is great that they’re pro-choice but they need to let women get a word in edgewise every so often.
See also hetero people who know way more about what it is like to be gay than any gay person…
SatanicPanic
No, WE meaning YOU didn’t stop it. If you’d had your way, some Republican would still be president and it would still be going on. OBAMA stopped it, not WE.
Amir Khalid
@Spinwheel:
How so?
balconesfault
@Spinwheel:
On the subject of torture, we present some tortured logic …
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
@Spinwheel:
Well, he stopped it, so there’s that.
Do you remember when Abraham Lincoln prosecuted every previous president for slavery? Good times, those.
skerry
Sen Udall is scheduled to take to the Senate floor at 10:30 ET to speak “at length” about the torture report.
Spinwheel
@Amir Khalid: The only reason we’re seeing this report is because the Democrats lost control of the Senate. Otherwise it would have remained blocked.
Let’s drop this notion that this was released out of nobility or that Obama took a stand against torture.
Cervantes
@Amir Khalid:
I think the argument is that {blocking it} would be a confession of more embarrassment than {publishing scattered parts of it and doing nothing else} is.
scav
The Anti-Andreas (Everthing is Awful! We closed the Book on it!) make for any interesting polyphony.
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
@Spinwheel:
Your first statement is opinion, and debatable. The second is a man of straw.
negative 1
@Spinwheel: You’re going to source that comment, right? Otherwise it’s just an opinion masquerading as a ridiculous assertion…
Nastybrutishntall
Come on baby bag my fiyerrrr
Cervantes
@GHayduke (formerly lojasmo):
In the time of “every previous president,” was slavery illegal? What laws were those previous presidents violating?
Iowa Old Lady
Speaking of leadership, do we think the govt will shut down tomorrow? Closing the Post Office right before Christmas would be another awesome thing for the Rs to do.
skerry
My eyes! My ears!
I turned on CSPAN2 to see if Udall was speaking yet, and it was Inhofe. Ack!
Spinwheel
@negative 1: just like the source that says “we’re not using torture anymore” right?
shelley
Good God, Zandar, I thought you were being ‘Onion-esque’ and not directly quoting her. I can’t believe a supposedly intelligent adult blithered on camera like that.
Mike E
@Botsplainer: Not yet…wait for it…we’re almost there…
JPL
@skerry: He speaking now.
JPL
@shelley: It’s Fox news. Intelligence is not part of the interview.
A Humble Lurker
@shelley: Key word there is ‘supposedly’.
negative 1
@Spinwheel: No, not actually at all. You’ve given a reason for the release of the report that strips away any agency for its release. By doing so you’re criticizing someone by giving them the reason for their actions and that criticizing that reason (that you gave them). So unless you can source that reason, i.e. had the Dems held the Senate it wouldn’t have been released, it exists only in your head or whatever psychic told it to you.
Whereas ‘we don’t torture anymore’ is a fact whose veracity can be checked, but since you can’t prove a negative you can choose to point out that a.) an attempt by the administration to close Guantanemo was blocked in the House less than 2 weeks ago or b.) that there is currently no evidence that I can find to refute that fact. See? That’s called sourcing your arguments. I may or may not be correct, but I’m showing my math. Now it’s your turn…
Keith G
@balconesfault: So…….are you saying that fierce political opposition should derail doing what is morally, ethically, and historically correct?
Look, I know this ain’t going to happen. That ship long since sailed when Obama first came to office. None the less, it is galling that these criminals will not be touched.
Plus, I’m not so sure there will not be negative blowback on Obama for being the leader of a government that was not able to (or more correctly, chose not to try to) punish these monsters.
Karen in GA
What? She called it torture? WRONG! It’s not torture if it’s awesome!
Are you ready for some FOOTBALL!
Spinwheel
@GHayduke (formerly lojasmo): What’s not debatable is that only 500 pages out of 6700 were released. That’s not “closing the door” on anything. That is a cover up of epic proportions by Obama and the Democrats.
Otherwise why not make it public?
Keith G
@Cervantes: Some folks know not their history.
skerry
Udall: “Oversight by willful ignorance is not oversight at all.”
balconesfault
@Spinwheel:
Why? I fail to see the political calculus here.
Two weeks before Obama was inaugurated, he declared: “I was clear throughout this campaign and was clear throughout this transition that under my administration the United States does not torture,”
Sounds like a stand to me. And it tortures credulity to contend that Obama secretly allowed torture to continue, but this fact has somehow been kept out of the media all this time.
balconesfault
@Keith G:
Nope. I’m just saying that it would have been framed by the media not as a national cleansing, but as a partisan attack by Obama on the past administration. Without question it would have done significant damage to his ability to push through the stimulus or the ACA. Whether he should have done so after the GOP took the House in 2010 and killed off the rest of his legislative agenda is a good question.
It is even more galling that close to 40% of Americans would happily grant block amnesty to anyone involved in torture. And that another 20% don’t care enough to have an opinion.
Hell – the infamous 27% would probably support treason charges against Obama for being unwilling to conduct torture to “protect America”, no matter what the Senate report says.
Not sure what that blowback might be … but I’m interested in your speculation.
rikyrah
GOP Tried New Sneak Attack On Ocare Contraception Mandate
ByCAITLIN MACNEAL
PublishedDECEMBER 9, 2014, 2:09 PM EST
House conservatives pushed Republican leaders to attach a provision to the government funding bill that would let some employers opt out of covering contraception for employees.
House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) opposed the language and Democrats ultimately kept Republicans from including it in the funding measure, congressional sources told Politico.
Reps. Louise Slaughter (D-NY) and Diana DeGette (D-CO) wrote a letter to House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) urging him to keep such provisions out of the measure to fund the government.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gop-rider-contraception-funding
Karen in GA
@Iowa Old Lady:
A government shutdown would be okay — furloughing government employees and suspending their paychecks just in time for Christmas isn’t that big of a deal. See, what you’re missing here is that government jobs aren’t real jobs, so these people aren’t getting real paychecks. It’s not like they would have spent any real money, so they wouldn’t have contributed to the economy in any real way.
Awesome.
FlipYrWhig
@Keith G:
From whom will said “blowback” come? A country that supports Darren Wilson over Mike Brown is not going to knock itself out decrying the torture of Scary Terrorists. By and large Americans like it when “thugs” suffer, to the point where they will redefine sufferers _as_ thugs just so that suffering can be a source of pleasure.
skerry
Udall: Panetta review is “smoking gun”. I have it in my possession. I am here today to disclose portions.
ETA: “free of excuses, qualifications and caveats” proving CIA provided WH with inaccurate info
“The CIA is lying. Not in the past, but today”
WaynersT
everything is awesome
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0iVVVqjPG0
balconesfault
@rikyrah: Ironically – we can probably thank Obama’s immigration initiative for giving Nancy some power to kill off some of these worst inclusions in the government funding bill.
Since a significant chunk of the GOP caucus thinks “defund the Government to protest Obama’s Tyranny” is a great idea … Boehner actually needs some Dem votes to get anything passed and not crash the economy again right before Christmas. Which might upset even the Chamber of Commerce …
srv
MO AWESOME!:
Someone finally respects the rule of Law, or I mean Wall.
Cervantes
@skerry:
Udall has seen drafts but, no, he has not seen the complete review led by Panetta. He’s complaining that Brennan has refused to provide it.
Keith G
@balconesfault: Since he is nearing the end of his presidency, such blowback would more likely take the form of a hit to his reputation – how history reflects on the quality of the decisions he has made throughout his presidency.
Spinwheel
@negative 1: Or instead of your attempts at apologizing for another Obama failure, we take these two facts:
1) Nobody in the previous administration will be prosecuted for torture.
2) Only 500 pages out of 6700 were released.
We put those two together and we arrive at the fact that there is still a lot more that this administration refuses to tell us, and that nothing will be done about these war crimes.
But please continue your quixotic dream.
FlipYrWhig
@balconesfault:
I think a _lot_ of Democratic elected officials are constantly pleading with the Obama Administration not to do things that they say would make their re-elections difficult OR that would violate what they see as precedents, norms, and traditions. Look at how both Harkin and Schumer are STILL bellyaching about whether doing health care reform was right because it produced electoral losses. Look at the trepidation about that filibuster bullshit that went on for _years_. Never mind Republican reaction. It would have made for some extremely testy Democrats.
skerry
Udall is very upset with Brennan. Talking about CIA search of Oversight computers a lot.
“no accountability from WH on CIA actions”. President has not “reined in” Brennan.
srv
And for all the Mitt haters, Bain Capital wins Glassdoor’s #2 spot in Best Workplace.
Think of what he could do to the country!
gnomedad
As a compromise, I’d like the see BHO ostentatiously announce that he had decided not to prosecute Bush and Cheney because reasons.
SatanicPanic
@Cervantes: Lincoln wasn’t around to do that anyway, but you could make the case that if he had been maybe he could have prosecuted Pierce as a sympathizer. And the didn’t exactly go after important former Confederate leaders.
balconesfault
@srv: I’m sure the Romney White House would be a wonderful place to work.
As for America … well, think KB Toys …
Linnaeus
While I’m glad that the Obama administration has stopped the torture program, I wouldn’t say that the US is awesome for no longer doing what it should not have been doing in the first place.
Edmund Dantes
Supreme Court unanimously held its okay to be detained off the clock in security lines without pay.
Yay!!!
negative 1
@Spinwheel: You sure you’re replying to me? What ‘Obama failure’ have I ‘apologized’ for? All I said was show your math. I showed mine. The actions taken/not taken or the other pages released/not released has nothing to do with the fact that you still haven’t backed up in any way your assertion that had the Dems held the Senate the report wouldn’t have been released at all. At this point you’ve got more straw men than a farm at Halloween. Where. Did. You. Get. Your. Evidence.
Spinwheel
Good for Mark Udall going after Obama’s cover up.
Belafon
@Spinwheel:
Tell me why you think this is true.
balconesfault
@Keith G:
Once the Fox News fog clears … historians are going to regard the Obama Presidency as someone who campaigned on a platform of “Hope” but due to a collapsing economy at the end of the campaign ended up having to govern on a platform of expediency, particularly given a GOP that was more than happy to let the economy crash if they could use the crash to gin up antipathy towards the Administration.
Chris Rock offered the other day in the Frank Rich interview that perhaps Obama should have just let the crash happen without watering down the stimulus bill to make it politically feasible … he could have then been the guy who brought us back from the dead, rather than the guy who kept the patient alive with antibiotics.
I think Obama cares too much about people to let that happen – it’s not in his DNA.
People today forget just how bad the economy was in the beginning of 2009 … and ignore how dedicated an opponent the GOP has been. Future historians will not.
skerry
Udall just called for Brennan’s resignation.
ETA: Didn’t disclose anything or anyone.
LongHairedWeirdo
@srv: So Romney leaves to run for President, and Bain becomes a good place to work.
What could he do for America? Um… leave?
Belafon
@Linnaeus: So, Fox is saying we’re awesome for no longer doing something that they denied we were doing in the first place and then said that if we were doing it it was justified?
Belafon
@balconesfault:
People forgot that in 2010.
SatanicPanic
@Spinwheel: hehe hehehehehehe
Spinwheel
@Belafon: because it never would have seen light of day under a GOP committee and because Mark Udall lost, which is an absolute shame.
Linnaeus
@Belafon:
Yes, more or less. Gotta love “fair and balanced”.
Tenar Darell
@Tommy: I never thought I’d say this, even as a hypothetical, I want to punish those who ordered this. I spit on them to ward off their evil. I have actually contemplated that they should experience the tortures they ordered. If there is a hell, I hope they all suffer the torments they inflicted.
Any one of these evil sadists could have done what that idiot Hitchens did, and tried waterboarding for themselves before they ordered it done to other people, but there are no reports of that! Their inability to either empathize or even attempt concrete experiments before they did something irrevocable to other human beings should follow them for the rest of their lives.
balconesfault
@Spinwheel:
Hmmm … so we’re seeing it only because the Dems lost, because when the GOP takes control it would never be released.
Oh – wait. They’re all the same, right? Except for Udall, of course.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Belafon: I was actually surprised in 2012– again, the two electorates problem– how many voters seemed to remember what the MSM had forgotten– crystallized by Bob Schieffer’s tendentious, scolding tone when he asked a befuddled Martin O’Malley, “Can you really say we’re better off now than we were four years ago?”, the same Schieffer who allows Condi Rice to be a paid commentator on CBS’s sunday show.
balconesfault
@Tenar Darell:
There was Conservative Radio Host Mancow Mueller who sceptically tried being waterboarded … and came away saying “hell yeah it’s torture …”
Belafon
@Spinwheel:
That doesn’t answer why you think it wouldn’t have been released had Democrats kept control of the senate.
balconesfault
@Belafon:
And it’s worth noting that the GOP would have never conducted such an inquiry in the first place …
Meanwhile, the Dems conducted it because … they wanted to bury it after all the inquiry was completed? Why even start then? After all – it’s not like it was a way to get them any big donor contributions …
RSA
For now. We might start up again, because hey, we’re awesome. Don’t worry about new regulations against torture; we ignored the old ones, no problem.
Tenar Darell
@balconesfault: I knew there were a couple of idiots! (I couldn’t remember which idiot, so I just picked the first article in the results list. Really not good practice).
balconesfault
@Tenar Darell: Well, I’ll call them ignorant … not necessarily idiots.
The real idiots are the ones who remain willfully ignorant. At least Hitchens and Mancow had the sense and guts to get “educated” on what they were opining about.
Tripod
If I jerk the handle
You’ll die In your dreams
If I jerk the handle,
Jerk the handle
You’ll Thrill me
And thrill me
And thrill me
Baby it’s slow
When lights go low
There’s no help, no
D58826
@Linnaeus: Does this mean the Faux news is giving Obama credit for doing something awesome?
Linnaeus
@D58826:
Ha! That’s a good one!
KG
wasn’t this more or less one of W’s first defenses of the program? basically, “we’re America and we don’t torture, so if we are doing it, it isn’t torture.” it’s like “in America there’s equal justice for all, so therefore the judicial system is equal and fair for all.”
ipso facto, res ipsa loquitor.
Villago Delenda Est
@Spinwheel: Cripes, you’re a fuckhead.
Tractarian
I’d like to give her some hard-hitting analysis, if you know what I mean.
[/misogyny]
Joey Maloney
@skerry: It worked with Chris Hitchens. It took less than 2 seconds of being waterboarded for him to change his tune about waterboarding.
Of course, not everyone is as smart as Hitchens was. It might take a few hours for O’Reilly. Steve Doocy? Days.
JustRuss
I America is so awesome, why are so many Americans in prison? And why do our police need tanks?
Alex S.
@Tripod:
Great song.
Belafon
@JustRuss: Because it takes a lot of effort to contain all that awesomeness.
Mobile Grumpy Code Monkey
THAT’S A DIRECT QUOTE.
Jesus.
Somebody needs to sit these jackasses down and explain to them that “American Exceptionalism” does not mean that we can literally do no wrong.
PurpleGirl
@Spinwheel: No, what was released was 500 page Executive Summary. Which brings to mind an old Dilbert cartoon wherein the snook worker is told to take a 1 page report and turn it into a 2 page executive summary. (I know, not exactly the same situation but I’ve always loved the cartoon.)
Bokonon
What Tarantos and Fox News are doing is the usual BS – they are trying to turn the substance of the torture report aside, and make the whole thing a question of MOTIVE.
In other words, the MOTIVE of the people who compiled and released the report is to hurt America, and attack the Bush Administration, and ask inconvenient questions about torture policies that they still claim “saved lives.” So those are the bad people, and the good people will have already moved on. Book closed. Evade, evade, evade.
And that’s convenient, because once you frame things that way, anyone bringing this torture issue up again and trying to ask for accountability is a left wing sonofabitch. Apparently including Senator McCain.
It also sets the stage for all this stuff happening again. Since we are America, and we are awesome, and we are totally due the occasional orgy of war crimes and criminal behavior when it is convenient, and when we damn well feel like it.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@ThresherK: As a survivor of a career in music, one that along the way included the management of three different music stores, I can answer this very clearly: the True Believer. Can’t tell you how much damage to children’s minds, personalities and egos, not to mention the ears of audiences, I have seen those people be responsible for.
At least the guy selling them instruments and lessons is trying to make the situation better. Sometimes the lessons can bring the kid not to greatness, but at least competency.
But seriously, the True Believers wreck the lives of their kids. Don’t be that parent.
Bobby Thomson
Better in the original.
gvg
The torture report has been a surprise to me. I hadn’t picked up at how much the CIA had done. It had seemed to me at the time that the Bush admin had leaned on the CIA to doctor reports for conclusions they wanted and push the torture. They leaned on the military too and relieved generals who mentioned problems…..but the report has been more about the CIA actively being bad than I expected. I am pretty mad and also not good at expressing outrage.
Back a number of years ago I felt it was unfair to go after the lower level torturers like Sgt Lindsey because the higher level people would not be prosecuted. As the years have gone by, I have rethought that. Go after all of them and if it is easier to prove on low level agents and soldiers and gaurds, prosecute harshly with heavy sentences. I refuse to accept that they only obeyed orders and didn’t know these things were illegal. No one can tell me they thought it was OK. You know what will happen if we start going after the low level people? Some of them will turn out to be able to prove their officers knew and ordered the torture. We will make deals like prosecutors do all the time and go after the next level who will make more deals and give more proof. If we keep at it we can got the real leaders but we have to start.
I will not forget no matter how hopeless it seems. These torturers should be in jail or hung. I feel it should be hung but given our justice system I have been considering becoming anti death penalty so I am conflicted on that. There is no doubt to me though these Americans who tortured, gave orders on torture, wrote memos that justified it etc all should get jail or death and I do not excuse Bush himself of that. I don’t really feel that the case has been shown that he was totally a dupe. I think he is pretty evil himself. Chiney is a scapegoat because evidently his personality didn’t appeal to as many all along. Bush is ultimately responsible. Some civil rights murders didn’t get charged and trials for 30 years but still happened eventually, so I will be waiting with little hope but burning hate. How dare they do this in my country.
A president has a huge amount of power so if he prosecutes something like this it comes across as political and as an abuse of power. After all he could influence things so the evidence was stacked in a way as to give a lying conclusion. that means Obama isn’t the one we should be demanding to do this nor any already president person. The result would probably be tit for tat tribal vendettas poisoning our government process like several other countries have experienced….Which means we need to think of some other way like maybe through a states attorney general or a civil rights organization. I would have said ACLU but the idiot suggesting mass pardons has really disturbed me.
Some of these people are actually murderers. I want them charged and tried.
Patricia Kayden
@Spinwheel: I don’t blame President Obama for not doing anything to prosecute war criminals. The American people have just voted in Republicans in a record breaking number of governorships, and to control Congress. Why should President Obama kill himself in trying to hold the former administration responsible when the American people appear not to care?
SWMBO
I have questions. If the release of this report bolsters in any way any country trying to bring war crimes/crimes against humanity charges against some of these players, could the current administration be charged with obstruction if they sat on it? Would releasing it after the midterms (which we could have expected to lose anyway) cause the other countries to move forward before the 2016 elections? Is Obama playing chess with a bunch of checkers players?
ETA I think we may be misunderestimating Obama…again…
Lightfoot
I was thinking back to the President’s statement, “And we tortured some Folks”, then it hit me why it was familiar.
Otters speech to Dean Wormer, @1:18.
” The issue here isn’t whether we broke a few rules, we did.”
SWMBO
Also, could the Amurka Yeah! crowd face war propaganda crimes charges?
kindness
In a thread yesterday I noted that Sully was blaming Obama for the whole torture thingy. Well, several here defended Sully, saying he wasn’t.
Well, he still is blaming Obama: How Obama Backed Impunity For War Crimes.
Tree With Water
The CIA bungled its job before 9/11, bungled it before the outbreak of the War in Iraq, and flat out-lied to the Bush administration about torture.
To hear the republican party tell it, anyway.
It’s strange, then, that the GOP isn’t raising hell about dismantling the CIA (at the very least). After all, it’s been all bulldog about Benghazi! Benghazi! Benghazi!. So why is it now rallying to support an agency that it has [essentially] declared to be incompetent for the past 14 years?
That behavior makes no logical sense whatsoever, and begs for an explanation. If only there existed a political opposition to demand one. I’m still waiting for Hillary Clinton to weigh in with her reaction. The democratic rank and file are owed that much from a presidential candidate and presumptive leader of the party. It should be an in depth address, too, and she should begin with what she knew about the torture, and when she knew it.
kindness
@Tree With Water: Lied to the bush43 administration? Yea….right. How did that happen when it was Cheney telling them to go ahead and torture? Yea I know the report ‘cleared’ them but that’s bullshit and we all know it.
VincentN
@kindness:
Sully’s not blaming Obama for the torture. He’s blaming him for not prosecuting the torturers and not carrying out his obligations under the Geneva Conventions. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable position to take even while I understand the argument of why Obama isn’t going to put out his neck for this.
Tree With Water
@kindness: It’s not very kind of you to think I’m that big an idiot. I think I made clear those were republican talking points, not mine. Illogical talking points, which can, should, and would be shredded for the tissues of lies they are, if the democratic party possessed the will to do it. Just why the hell it doesn’t is another piece of the same story.
Tree With Water
@kindness: Senator Udall, just today (posted at National Journa.com):
“Obama, Udall said, “has expressed full confidence in Director Brennan and demonstrated that trust by making no effort at all to rein him in.” Udall additionally referred to Brennan’s “failed leadership” and suggested that he should resign.
Like I said, that’s the story within the story.
At this point in our history, it’s fair to ask if the CIA is blackmailing politicians, and/or is considered “too big to fail”.