Remember that they knew all of the stuff in the torture report for years, and they did and said NOTHING. Feinstein was in the “gang of eight,” as the Chair of the Ranking Member of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence since 2009. She’s known all or most of this stuff since then. A couple other notable members of that group are Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi.
As for Udall, he has been on the Senate floor today as a couple of earlier posts by John and Anne Laurie pointed out. But he’s been on the SSCI for at least the last two years, and was very involved in the research on the torture report.
It’s good that an executive summary of the report has seen the light of day. It’s important for us to know what’s being done in our names, and I seriously doubt we’d have gotten actual information from the Republicans after they take over late next month. It would be very nice for the Politicians who oversaw torture programs and the lawyers who twisted the law to claim it was legal to be punished, but I’m not holding my breath. The prime difference between Charles Graner and Dick Cheney is rank, after all.
Having said that, why, if this report shocks the consciences of those who’ve read it, are we only seeing the exec summary, and why only now? Udall waits until now when there’s no risk to him doing this. Well, better late than never for your ideals, I suppose, even if it’s to demand a couple of people resign and not, as he said he would, to enter the text of the report into the Record. Feinstein is as safe as a Democratic Senator can get. She could have read the actual contents of the entire report into the Congressional Record at will at any time and nobody could have stopped her and there would’ve been no cost to her at the ballot box in 2018.
Everything I’ve just said above applies to the other Democrats who’ve served on the SSCI in particular and to a lesser extent on the House Committee on Intelligence since 2001. We still don’t have effective oversight of the CIA or the NSA or the rest of the Intelligence community because our representatives in Congress are complicit in keeping these secret. If Congressional oversight is the mechanism by which we exercise control over our government, we are being sadly failed by the people that we’ve sent up there to provide that oversight. And the Republicans are every bit as complicit, but being Republicans, it was absolutely predictable that they’d actively work against the interests of the general public on issues like this, and the few who aren’t are notable for that.
And lastly, look in the mirror. After 9/11, the vast majority of the American public was demanding that the government do whatever had to be done to keep another mass-casualty attack from taking place. A lot of people who otherwise counted themselves as liberals supported the Bush administration in their taking a free hand to do whatever the hell they wanted in those early years. And while Liberals began to peel off of that support within a couple of years, it wasn’t even as Iraq dragged on, and Abu Ghraib first exposed some of the ugliness did the majority of our country begin to express doubts and question what we were doing there. And in fact, it wasn’t until after Hurricane Katrina landed on our own shores and we witnessed the full extent of their incompetence and mendacity where they couldn’t hide it that the majority of the American public finally began to admit that Bush and Cheney and their minions had lied us into an unwinnable war on the other side of the world. And our Congress, including the heroes of many people here, supported them for much of their agenda. The USA PATRIOT Act passed a Democratic-held Senate, and a Democratic-held Senate gave retroactive immunity to the NSA and private corporations that assisted them later on. These were our elected representatives that did these things or allowed them to happen. They are our will made whole, and their acts and things, dark and light, are ours. Before we spend too much time wallowing in the outrage bath, we would do well by our children and our ancestors to remember that.
piratedan
well stated Sooner… It’s not as if the guy in the chair hasn’t stated publicly that all of this power makes him uneasy and that it’s up to Congress to redefine those powers and take back some of those responsibilities. They have refused to do so. It comes back to some very overworn tropes, they like Dem policies, but not Dem politicians and they like Rep politicians but not their policies. Our national priorities are fucked and while I still believe that when you have people speaking with each other, hard decisions can be made yet in our current environment when the press doesn’t feel an obligation to do their job, much less be impartial and a legal system that very much appears to be available to the highest bidder, as long as that bidder has gone to the proper schools and has the appropriate pigmentation, it may be quite some time before the public awakens from their collective lethargy from Dancing with the Stars and the next Expendables film to wake up and take notice, if ever.
Omnes Omnibus
Sorry, don’t play that off on me.
Tommy
@Omnes Omnibus: How old were you on 9/11.
Omnes Omnibus
@Tommy: 37. Why do you ask?
Steve from Antioch
The CIA, which in theory is under Obama’s control, continues to withhold over 9,000 pages of documents from congress.
Obama will not name, let alone charge, and let alone try anyone for these crimes.
But, gosh, let’s all circle jerk one another about how awful and mean the CIA was back when Bush was president.
What a fucking joke.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve from Antioch: You really are kind of dumb, aren’t you?
priscianus jr
@Steve from Antioch: “which in theory is under Obama’s control . . . ”
In theory.
ShadeTail
I can honestly (and proudly) declare that I was in the 20-ish percent of the country that did not support the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq, the Patriot Act, or any of the rest of Bush-junior’s debacle. I was against it all from the start, and I wasn’t shy about saying so.
So yeah, I can look in the mirror and see someone with a clean conscience.
ruemara
I noticed Udall tossing the blame at the Obama administration, like, oh, I dunno, some people here. I keep wondering when Congress bears the brunt of this shit. Ever. But Obama is a convenient whipping boy on the left & the right. The fact that many Dems were ass and elbows deep in allowing torture to take place is a convenient thing to ignore. And Obama, will he, nill he, did what someone trying to hold a party together would do, he let them take cover. I actually feel that if the hacking into Congressional systems was not discovered, our principled democratic party senators would be very concerned with protecting security abroad and keeping things mum until say… President Bristol Palin’s 2nd term.
NotMax
There’s a reason 24 was so popular, and it isn’t a prepossessing one.
Omnes Omnibus
@Omnes Omnibus: @Tommy: Tommy, if you have something to say to me, then say it. I will respond.
Yatsuno
@ShadeTail: I can’t. As much as I did not vote for any of these people, these atrocities were still carried out in my stead. In all of our steads. This country has sinned gravely. It is time to face up to it. And yes heads should roll and no one should be immune from prosecution up to and including the former President. Fuck politics. We need accountability, and if it doesn’t happen now, it never will.
And yes I am irritated at both Pelosi and Obama over this.
@ruemara:
I have extreme confidence that this will never happen. Mostly because she is just as lazy as her mother.
Omnes Omnibus
@ruemara: People on the left and right think that a President is an elected king who can do whatever. IOW people are dipshits.
? Martin
@Tommy: I was 33 with a 3 year old and an 8 month old. The WTC was pretty much my navigation beacon – it’s how I knew where I was as a kid. One of the few memories I have of doing things with my parents – visiting the observation level while my parents swung me from their arms.
Standing there with my wife watching the towers in a cloud of dust and smoke – the buildings I watched being finished as a kid, I commented to her that we hadn’t seen the worst of this – that we as a nation would go completely mental, that we’ll be lucky to emerge from this not having nuked someone.
I always suspected that the 9/11 attacks had less to do with killing americans and more to do with putting us on tilt and causing us to effectively self-destruct. Worked pretty well that way, I must say.
NotMax
@Yatsuno
And the sickness has not abated. The government and most politicians still give no pause to blithely invoking the killing and/or assassination of people.
Anne Laurie
Well said, Soonergrunt.
I’m still going to call for an accounting, at the very least, from all parties.
Truth first, then reconciliation.
Mike E
@Omnes Omnibus: Ditto. I was way more afraid of my then 6 year old daughter catching any of that bullshit cable tv coverage. Seriously.
Tone In DC
The national legislature has some decent sized limitations, compared to what I thought was the case (back in the 1990s, when I was too busy partying and working a dead end job).
Remember the BP spill back in 2010?
British Petroleum still won’t tell the feds what exactly is in that damn dispersant. It’s proprietary information, apparently.
The Greenwaldian/Snowdenian conundrum regarding warrantless wiretapping?
The telco folks still won’t divulge their part of that ongoing fiasco, last I heard.
Remember the TARP bailout in 2007 and 2008?
The Bush administration wouldn’t tell Congress where trillions of dollars went during that time.
And, never mind what happened to that nine billion bucks in cash that disappeared from Iraq in 2006. Nothing to see here, move along.
I mention these incidents to just show there’s a a lot that Congress can’t seem to find out. Not discounting the possibility that many of these members of the House and Senate may not want to actually know (DC sometimes has more than a small amount of Plausible Deniability slime in the works).
Anne Laurie
@? Martin:
True, that.
Osama bin Laden was evil, but he wasn’t stupid. He’d watched Russia self-destruct, and that gave him a good clue towards his attempt to destroy the American empire as well.
Tone In DC
@? Martin:
Can’t argue with that.
JordanRules
@Anne Laurie:
I wish we had more history to suggest we can do that, but we just don’t. Old sins, new sins, we don’t account for shit.
And I agree, the call still has to be made.
NotMax
@Yatsuno
Taking a cue from the example of South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission would be an acceptable path.
Mike E
@Anne Laurie: He’s the answer to the question, “What do you call the guy who got everything he ever wanted (& beyond)?”
mzrad
In 2004, I put a “NO WAR” sign in the window of my new apartment in a town to which I’d just moved and fairly quickly was given 30 days to move without any explanation. I never supported this war and loathed everyone in the Bush-Cheney administration from start to finish. Pretty small potatoes, I’m sure, but some of us could see the awfulness of B-C right away and kept seeing it with every greedilicious decision. Not all of us were hoping for the decider to give us a nickname and join us for a beer. Blech.
JordanRules
@Mike E: I do wonder what he anticipated would happen during the fallout.
Omnes Omnibus
Um? where is Tommy? He asked questions. I would think that a person who asked questions would have the courage to be there for the answers.
Major Major Major Major
I don’t get it. Since I’m a lazy pliable millennial, can anybody tl:dr; this for me?
cmorenc
@Steve from Antioch:
Don’t discount the possibility that sometime very early on in the Obama presidency, Cheney allies within the CIA communicated an underspoken, but nevertheless clear message to Obama: “nice little Presidency you’ve got here…be a shame if anything bad happened to it.” Probably not in such direct wording as that, but sufficient for Obama to realize that if he seriously went after anyone within the CIA or the national security apparatus within the Bush Administration over the torture issue, they would still retain enough allies within the CIA to engineer ways to undermine, discredit, and destroy his Presidency.
Pure speculation on my part, true – but hardly implausible either.
KG
@Major Major Major Major: tl;dr:
They all knew about this and didn’t do anything sooner
gussie
@Major Major Major Major: We’re all guilty (so none of us are guilty).
JordanRules
@KG:
For ya, I fixted
EconWatcher
First, this is an excellent post. Thank you.
Second, in my new job I am spending a lot of time in the Balkans, particularly Serbia, and I’ve been trying to wrap my head around how the seemingly charming people I meet could have enthusiastically supported–or participated in–monstrous crimes just a few years ago.
I asked a Bosnian colleague how people could one day be neighbors, sharing basically the same culture, language and ethnicity (though not religion), and the next day turn on each other in a spasm of violence and rape. She said, “It’s very simple. People are sheep. If you exepct any more from them, you will be disappointed.”
EconWatcher
@cmorenc: There was an earlier Democratic President who decided that the CIA had gone rogue, and cocnluded that it would probably have to be disbanded. He even made some statements to that effect, that became known to the Agency. His presidency ended rather suddenly on November 22, 1963. Just sayin’.
Mike E
@JordanRules: IIRC he had no idea his strategy would be given such a turbo boost by the Cheney Regency, and was a bit giddy over his tremendous fortune in the snowball effect that ensued. At least that’s what came out in some of the recordings/propaganda.
Major Major Major Major
So can we still like Udall and Wyden and all the post 9/11 folks who actually tried to fight this? Especially if our first time voting (2002 for me) means we’re untainted by previous Dems?
Soonergrunt
It looks like the site had a little hiccup. Not sure what happened, but it’s back on line, and the console appears to be functioning normally. John or mistermix can glance at the logs tomorrow.
Raven Onthehill
This was not my will made whole—ever, ever.
Look, I am all for empathy, but there is no need to say, “There but for fortune,” when it really isn’t true. There are a lot of Americans who never wanted this. There are more who wouldn’t want this if they hadn’t been so completely scared by the radical-right media.
And The Intercept is doing the best damn coverage of this; no-one else seems to know what to say beyond, “Oh, shit,” or even “Yay, team.”
? Martin
@Anne Laurie:
You’ll only get reconciliation if the truth is accepted by the public. It won’t be. The Koch brothers are busy now trying to insert into education the idea that “Slavery was an important economic and social institution in the United States,”
We can’t even get fucking reconciliation for slavery because even after 150 years, we can’t accept the truth that slavery was bad.
Mike E
@EconWatcher: More like ‘demon’ sheep, just like that crazy campaign ad…my folks came from that neck of the woods, the stories I heard sounded quite a lot like Somalia’s warlord shit. But worse.
JordanRules
@? Martin: Word!
And slavery was only really bad for folks whose lives still don’t matter much sooooo…..not that bad AND great for our economic future.
Sometimes I wish I could start a company with a 4 year head start via free labor at the same time someone else starts the same business without that advantage. We both go for 10 years and see what is what.
Elizabelle
Sooner: your last paragraph is way too broad. I never fell for ANY of that crap, and I know a lot of other people who didn’t believe anything out of the mouths of the Bush-Cheney-torture administration.
From the first days after 9/11 and through the whole run-up, when Bush looked like someone who wanted to sell you the worst car on the lot.
Our political system, big media, big business, big religion, the military-industrial complex: massive institutional fail. Never seen anything like this.
max
Having said that, why, if this report shocks the consciences of those who’ve read it, are we only seeing the exec summary, and why only now?
Check.
And lastly, look in the mirror. After 9/11, the vast majority of the American public was demanding that the government do whatever had to be done to keep another mass-casualty attack from taking place. A lot of people who otherwise counted themselves as liberals supported the Bush administration in their taking a free hand to do whatever the hell they wanted in those early years.
Not guilty. I loudly opposed a number of things, very specifically including the AUMF (as passed) and the Patriot Act.
And while Liberals began to peel off of that support within a couple of years, it wasn’t even as Iraq dragged on, and Abu Ghraib first exposed some of the ugliness did the majority of our country begin to express doubts and question what we were doing there.
I had doubts (I always had doubts), serious publicly voiced doubts starting on or about November 18th to December 3rd 2001. Very specifically because I did not believe that we had killed Osama bin Laden which I regarded as indicating our war in Afghanistan had failed in its objectives.
I became aware that something hinky was going around the same time. Just after 9/11, for whatever reason, I decided to look around for better information than was coming from the newspapers. One of the places I looked was Jerry Pournelle’s web site. (This was just when blogs were starting to get established.) I started reading it. Lo and behold, my random guessing turned out to be correct – he posted a photo sent to him by someone in the military. It was a picture of someone identified as a captive. The picture was of a man, in geek mask, ankle and wrist chains, tied down in the most bizarre fashion to a bench seat of what looked like the cargo bay of a C-130. Around him were standing 5 military dudes in extremely hostile poses. The picture only remained up for half an hour and sadly I did not save it or screenshot it, because I was too weirded out by it. Basically the entire picture indicated that the military believed this guy was the fucking Batman and also made of explosives, and therefore they had to take all precautions to prevent escape. (From the back of a C-130.) I have seen photos of death row inmates who are known to insanely violent detained with less emphasis.
Something very hinky was going on, but it did not become clear until a bit later, and it wasn’t immediate obvious there was a program of intentional torture until later. But obviously, something very bad was happening and whatever it was, I was against.
And while Liberals began to peel off of that support within a couple of years, it wasn’t even as Iraq dragged on, and Abu Ghraib first exposed some of the ugliness did the majority of our country begin to express doubts and question what we were doing there. And in fact, it wasn’t until after Hurricane Katrina landed on our own shores and we witnessed the full extent of their incompetence and mendacity where they couldn’t hide it that the majority of the American public finally began to admit that Bush and Cheney and their minions had lied us into an unwinnable war on the other side of the world.
I was literally arguing with people advocating we attack Iraq on 9/12/2001. And continued to do so thereafter because it was so clearly and obviously an insane idea that had nothing to do with 9/11.
And our Congress, including the heroes of many people here, supported them for much of their agenda. The USA PATRIOT Act passed a Democratic-held Senate, and a Democratic-held Senate gave retroactive immunity to the NSA and private corporations that assisted them later on. These were our elected representatives that did these things or allowed them to happen.
Yes. I know.
Before we spend too much time wallowing in the outrage bath, we would do well by our children and our ancestors to remember that.
I plead not guilty on all points (and then some), your honor. In point of fact, during the first part of last decade, I was arguing mostly alone against a whole host of things that people seem to now be full-throatedly evil. In point of fact, I am sure I made myself unpopular with a number of democratic bloggers by angrily and noisily arguing against a whole host of stupid shit, back when people, for whatever reason, thought this stuff was ‘reasonable’ and ‘moderate’. (I also occasionally got into arguments with liberals (real, hardcore liberals) about technical details, and 9/11 truthers.)
I wasn’t complicit in any way, shape or form with any of that shit, and I acquired all the psychic scars to prove it. (I do plead guilty in not much caring about the use of cluster munitions (by several different countries) or standard or large landmines (those little AP mines suck), or, to a certain extent, chemical munitions. (Union Carbide.) And also to very frequently not joining the ginned up foreign policy outrages du jour of our useless fucking elite classes.)
max
[‘The rest of me had gotten pretty heavily mauled over the last decade and a half, but my fucking conscience looks like Arnold Schwarznegger’s bod in his prime. So fuck it, I’m goin’ to bed.’]
NotMax
@Elizabelle
Ditto.
Merely recalling Bush standing astride the crushed remnants of dead people while babbling into a bullhorn still makes me retch. Not exactly the Gettysburg Address, not even in the same ZIP code.
FromTheBackOfTheRoom
@Steve from Antioch: Nailed it.
Bonnie
I never approved of the war or torture or Bush/Cheney; and, they did not represent me at any time. I am only one person. I was very disappointed in all Democrats who got rolled in this operation. I voted in every election, I wrote and called my Congressional Senators and Rep, I wrote to editorial boards at a variety of newspapers, I actively campaigned for Democrats in several elections during the B/C years. Consequently, I am not sure what else I could have done. Soonergrunt, you are from a state that gave us Jim Inhofe and Tom Coburn, two of worst Senators ever. Did you vote for them? If not, then, you did what you could; and, I won’t hold you responsible. I am also embarrassed for America’s action; but, am not going to beat myself up because I did what little I could do. I’m also too old. I still haven’t gotten over the assassination of President Kennedy when I was 18 and the following two other assassinations of American leaders, who were shot by Americans–not foreigners–before I was 23. I believe the biggest crime to this country came from the people who voted for Bush/Cheney.
wilfred
An excellent post.
In a few day time, nothing will happen. There’s no votes here. No hands in the air, I can’t breathe, so vote for me if you don’t want it to happen again. Nothing to manipulate, nothing to cynically exploit for a political advantage. Just a bunch of brown Muslim shit. Nothing to see here.
Feinstein is a fucking pig. Just because she supports the preciouses of liberals (please, don’t call them the left) doesn’t give her the right to…oh, wait, of course, it does.
This a disgrace to the country and all its people, white or black. But nothing will come of it because hypocrisy never prospers.
Betty Cracker
@? Martin: Wait, what?
JPL
@Betty Cracker: Koch brothers are supporting ALEC’s attempt at changing history books. I’m sure the gay nineties and the roaring twenties will just be a hiccup in the road to freedom.
Valdivia
@cmorenc:
if anyone here has ever read on Transitional Justice–what happens in societies transitioning from non democratic regimes to democratic ones–this is the first lesson learned: impossible to make the villains account in the initial phase because they would do what you just said. The coup in Spain in 1982 is a great example. It didn’t succeed only because of the King.
ETA: note how Brazil took over 20 (more like 30 years) to produce a Truth Commission Report and think of prosecuting. Its not cowardice, its trying to prevent a return to the torturous past in the immediate transition.
Valdivia
@EconWatcher:
exactly.
Patricia Kayden
@ruemara: No, everything is always Obama’s fault. Every dang thing. I will be as glad as President Obama when he leaves office.
Are Progressives pushing Hilary Clinton to take action about this torture scandal when and if she is elected? Are they pushing Congress to do something about it? No, just blame Obama. Well, don’t worry folks. You’ll never have to vote for him again.
wilfred
@Patricia Kayden:
Well, I’m all in; in fact, that’s exactly what I was hoping to hear. How about having 10 posts a day on the subject and organizing the community to make her take a position?
Patricia Kayden
@wilfred: That would be fine with me and make more sense. President Obama has already clearly stated that he will not prosecute anyone from the last administration in regards to their use of torture. Let’s move on from that. Criticize him if you want, but move on. What is Hilary Clinton’s position on this issue? If this is so important to Progressives, then start pushing Secretary Clinton to take action should she be elected in 2016.
But, let’s be honest, What would Clinton gain from making such a promise? Even with a majority in the Senate and House, President Obama couldn’t close Guantanamo Bay. Plus, from the polls I’ve seen, it appears that the majority of American people are okay with torturing foreigners.
Hawes
COINTELPRO was uncovered in 1971. The Church Commission wasn’t done with its work until 1975.
Shit like this takes time. I know everyone is in a hurry, but if you want speed, I’d look somewhere else than Congress.
Lee
I have a vague recollection (so I’m probably mistaken) that when torture first became public Feinstein & Rockefeller(?) both had been on record about opposing in conference it and were told that if they went public they would be prosecuted with disclosing state secrets (or something).
It might have been a different topic but I do recall something like that happening.
Cervantes
@Patricia Kayden:
No one here is saying that. If you’re not aware of the specific criticisms being leveled against him on this score, let me ask you just two questions: Suppose numerous people engaged in torture and numerous people lied about it then and afterwards; should any of these people have been promoted and should any of them still be drawing a government pay-check? Bear in mind that all these people are in the Executive branch.
Ask HRC all the questions you want to — it’s a great idea — and push Congress to go further — by all means — but Udall yesterday addressed a number of questions to the incumbent president and those questions need to be addressed as well.
AxelFoley
@Patricia Kayden:
This.
Rob in CT
@ShadeTail:
Me too. Any hardly anyone listened to us.
Sure, these acts are “ours” in that they were committed in our name by our democratically elected government. I’ll own that, and I feel the shame of it. But that’s mitigated by my recollection of vehement arguments I was having with people at the time. I was fucking right, but in the minority. That’s how it works sometimes.
I have voted for Obama, and therefore have to own more directly his bad acts & omissions. That’s fine, and I am still confident that he was the lesser of the evils available. He was the electable lesser evil (surely there are candidates you can conjure would might’ve been purer on various issues, but they would have lost to McCain/Palin – think that one through). The worst of it has been those promises he has broken, specifically with regard to transparency, and his zeal for prosecuting whistleblowers. That’s seriously bad. And yet, given the options available to little ‘ole me, I cannot see what else I was supposed to do. Would writing in Bernie Sanders or somesuch absolve me? Come the hell on.
Thus, my conscience is reasonably clear. I can sleep at night, look at myself in the mirror without disgust, etc.
ellennellee
@Tone In DC:
not to mention the fact – one that everyone here seems to forget – that members of the senate intelligence committee are sworn to secrecy; they divulge ANYTHING they learn in their briefings. or presumably they get kicked off. feinstein and udall, and anyone else on that committee is so sworn, and faces that same consequence.
bit of a dilemma.
not entirely unlike the big one obama must find himself in.
imagine being in his shoes and getting persistent briefings from them that this and that plot are imminent, and thousands or more americans will be slaughtered, unless we kill this guy, then that guy, these guys and those guys. imagine having to decide whether to start up a new bootsondaground war to do this job, or send in drones instead. imagine the CIA leaves you no alternative; americans will be slaughtered unless you act, they warn. constantly. daily.
imagine trying to deal with this agency from which porter goss banished all dems almost a decade prior. the same agency jfk wanted to shred into tiny slivers and cast to the wind. we know his fate.
imagine knowing too many of these agents and their managers are cretins up to their eyeballs in all manner of crimes against humanity and conscience, including drug smuggling and human trafficking, who for the most part could care less about the country or the people in it, because they’ve convinced themselves they rule the world for whatever fantasy excuse they can muster. (e.g., see: mormons, numbers in CIA, FBI)
imagine knowing that your every move is scrutinized and they trump the secret service on any day, good or bad, and the slightest hint of a toe outside the line will leave you and/or your beloved family dead. or – and who’s to say from his perspective if it’s worse? – another 9/11 is allowed to happen. (shades of that final scene in failsafe.)
imagine you happen to be just half as clever as obama and you get all these things we know about the agency, and then some (and then a lot, really; imagine how much more he gets exposed to in his role, BS and innuendo and outright pressure).
if you feel you can then don your shining armor and leap upon your white steed, brandish your mighty sword to slash this dragon forever and ever amen, with this country as deep in the swoon and thrall of fascism as it is right now? oh by all means, i step aside and beg you to do your magic!
i don’t truck in conspiracy theories or feel like all players are evil, or that dems and repubs are equivalent. i put tbogg’s bottom line in the forefront of my thinking as much as possible.
but things have got real serious, folks. i’m as disheartened by the media reaction as i am by the exposure of just some of the truth, most of which we already knew.
the same players are using the same attitude and talking points to defend the domestic police state as are defending its expression in the world at large.
we do not live in america the free fairyland anymore; we need to grow the fuck up.
Betty Cracker
@Patricia Kayden: Do you truly think Obama will be glad when his term is up? I think any human being would have to feel a sense of relief after holding such a stressful job for eight straight years — let alone in the face of a brain-dead horde of haters. But I suspect he enjoys being president. I guess we’ll find out in his memoir!
Lee
@Betty Cracker: I think it will depend on who the next President is.
If a Dem, I think he’ll be pleased to leave. Not so much if a Republican.
nastybrutishntall
@ellennellee: I’ve come to the same conclusion. Judging Obama by what he appears to be, which is an extremely intelligent, analytic utilitarian looking to maximize the long-term good, he must have seen the CIA as essentially ungovernable, and potentially lethal, both to his person and his family but also to his ambitions and other goals. He could have chosen combating the CIA and the MIC as his administration’s (short, perhaps truncated) legacy, or he could have chosen to make incremental but real progress, finally, on a number of issues dear to us all. He chose the latter.
And for that, we get dickheads in our own party or to the left of it vilifying him, not merely disagreeing with him, but accusing him of the evils committed by others prior to his administration because he cannot punish those evildoers or single-handedly (because Congress is really fucking helpful, right?) end their institutional legacies, legacies that have been decades and decades in the making. And through doing so, accelerating the exodus of young voters into the hands of apathy, conspiracy mongering, and the fakery of Libertarianism. And I have only one response to that left.
Fuck you, liberal white people. I am one of you. So I get to say it loud and proud.
Fuck all y’all. And if you want to include me? Because why not, I probably haven’t defended him loudly enough to my peers, because I’ve run out of energy to rebut every instance of idiocy within daily barrage of anti-Obama “progressive” myopia, cherry-picking, and premature judgment lighting up Facebook and spilling out at dinner tables and bar stools. So fuck me, too.
Our first Black president has been perhaps the most decent and thoughtful and effective in history, and we can’t get enough out of hating him. Out of feeling superior. Out of feeding our secret, racist insecurities that the guy may be smarter and, shit, an overall better human than we are. Out of saying out loud that we wish he were more like FDR, who was another great president to white folks, but not so much if you were Japanese back then. Or black.
Well, fuck you, me, us, I say again. Eat a big ole bag of fucks, every day, ad infinitum, until we get a goddamned clue what we are up against and what it will take to prevail, which is working hard and rooting for our own team to win rather than rooting for everyone to acknowledge the purity of our own ever more utopian ideals.
/coffee
RP
Posts like this bug me. The release of this report is a victory for the good guys. A small victory, but a victory nonetheless. Celebrating the benefits of the report is more productive in the long run than bitching about how it’s too little, too late.
Cervantes
@RP:
What are “the benefits of the report” that ought to be more celebrated?
RP
@Cervantes: The fact that the legislative branch did an in depth report on the terrible things done by our government and released a summary of that report to the public. That’s an important step, even if it’s not the ideal outcome.
This part of a larger pattern on the left: We suck at declaring victory. Look at the Obamacare — instead of saying “this is big win and a great first step,” many on the left bitched about the public option, single payer, etc.
Linnaeus
@? Martin:
Well, slavery was an important economic and social institution in the United States. It was pretty much the organizing principle for a good portion of the United States prior to 1865 and there’s some new scholarship emerging that takes on the economic dimensions of slavery, not just for the antebellum south, but for the whole nation.
Now, if the Kochs want to say that’s how it should have been, well, that’s profoundly disturbing.
Cervantes
@RP:
OK, let me re-phrase: other than its own existence, what are “the benefits of the report” that ought to be more celebrated?
RP
@Cervantes: “Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman.”
Linnaeus
@EconWatcher:
I’m reading Leave None to Tell the Tale, about the Rwandan genocide, and that’s a very much an impression that you get when you read how many ordinary Rwandans participated in it.
Elizabelle
@nastybrutishntall:
Thank you, “nasty.” My sentiments exactly, but you expressed them better.
Irony Abounds
For those thinking there should be widespread prosecutions of those in charge of the torture program and those who carried it out answer me this: when in human history has any nation tried its own people as war criminals? I don’t mean isolated incidents like My Lai, I mean prosecutions of those in authority who promoted, administered and fostered those types of actions. The only situations where that has occurred is in revolutionary situations where governments have been overthrown. It hasn’t happened otherwise. Obama’s Presidency would have effectively been over had he gone after Bush, Cheney et al. with war crimes prosecutions, and the country would have been torn apart. Good Lord, the country has enough trouble handling universal healthcare, does anyone honestly think prosecutions of major figures in one political party by an administration of the other political party would have been applauded by the public at large?
To reiterate what I stated in another post, those who think the US would actively go after its own citizens, including governmental figures, for what was done to these Muslims (and yes, Americans to a large extent applaud what was done to a great extent because the victims were Muslims), and think the public would support such an action, have to believe in a type of American exceptionalism that is belied by the very actions that were undertaken and for the most supported by the public and continue to be supported to this day (in fact, support for torture has only increased in recent years based on recent polling). We are not that pure of a country, never were, never will be and to think otherwise is utterly naive.
Paul in KY
Not this boy. And I have the posts from various websites (Steve G’s, Salon, Hullabaloo, etc.) to prove it.
El Caganer
@Tommy: I was 50. Marched against the war here in Philly; I don’t think we even made the local news.
RP
@Irony Abounds: Very well said.
the Conster
@nastybrutishntall:
I agree with all of this. This president, by virtue of his very existence and his electoral success, has become some kind of psychological fun house mirror projecting and reflecting this country’s deep dysfunction, psychosis and anxiety about our national identity. He has unintentionally exposed and drawn to the surface all of the fears and hatreds of at least half the population, which expose the failures of the stories we tell ourselves about what it means to be an American. I knew his election would provoke some pustulating ugliness and hoped his presidency would act like a healing poultice, but I think it has exposed the deep deep rot of this country’s soul. The fact that the country has been handed back to these psychopathic Republicans leads me to think we’re terminal.
Barbara
Not to get all Goodwin, but as a Jew, all my life I have heard — and even asked myself — variations on the question, “How could the average German claim not to have known?”
But now I know, because I think an awful lot of Americans could also claim not to have known (present company excluded of course), and that’s not counting the ones who knew and approved. Even those of us who knew and were, and continue to be, horrified, disgusted and more, well, what difference did/does our horror and disgust do?
I don’ know what the point I’m trying to make is, except that I’m announcing that I’m officially letting all the Germans who didn’t know what to make of that constantly puffing new smokestack in town off the hook.
Linnaeus
@Irony Abounds:
Looking at it another way, it’s possible to desire prosecutions of those who planned and participated in the torture program, but at the same time realize that there are considerable political constraints on doing so.
The people responsible are going to get away with it. All of it. I can understand why a lot of people would be very frustrated by that.
Cacti
The publication of the torture report is an objectively good thing.
That doesn’t change my overall estimation of Feinstein as war profiteering scum, who readily endorsed the worst of neocon foreign policy and would certainly do so again.
And speak for yourself SG. I called shenanigans on the Iraq invasion from the start, protested it, and contacted my representatives to demand that they oppose it. It all amounted to nothing, because the national bloodlust demanded someone, anyone, had to pay for 9/11.
Barbara
@Linnaeus: I understand what you are saying but want to caution you that children don’t generally have very deep comprehension abilities (some of that is developmental and some of that is simply that they don’t know a lot yet, and that is why we make them go to school).
So while yes, slavery was an important economic and social institution, children — even high school students — are probably not going to get that this sentence is not condoning and approving of slavery. Remember — half of all people have less than average intelligence. Better to be very blatant and direct for all students’ sake.
Which is all to say, the Koch curriculum was written that way very much on purpose.
ETA: it would be fabulous if students were taught about the new research showing how much of the entire US economy was structured around slavery. But again, I don’t think that is the Koch’s intent.
ShadeTail
@Yatsuno: You can look at it that way if you want, and I am in full agreement that we need some serious accountability here. I’m also in full agreement that the President and the rest of the Democrats are clearly refusing to do their duty about this. But I’m not going to make myself a martyr by claiming responsibility for this. I was on the correct side from the start, and while I failed to stop what happened, I definitely was not a part of it. As far as I’m concerned, that gives me the moral high ground to agitate for real justice, and I’m not going to give that up.
Cervantes
@RP:
When Brandeis wrote those words a century ago, he meant that (financial) misbehavior ought to be investigated and made public so that laws could be written to prohibit it!
In the current scenario we’ve passed that point already, wouldn’t you agree? So what are “the benefits of the report” that ought to be more celebrated?
Just Some Fuckhead
We can’t rule out the possibility the CIA is blackmailing our elected representatives.
Linnaeus
@Barbara:
True enough. I had in mind high school students, but I think you’re right that younger children probably wouldn’t understand that nuance.
Oh, I don’t think that’s the Kochs’ intent at all. I’m not defending them, just suggesting that there may be a way to turn their intent on its head. But as you say, that might be too difficult for most students.
the Conster
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I don’t know if that’s sarcasm, but I think this should be a working assumption. There was a photo of a package Bush left for Obama on the Oval Office desk on inauguration day that I will never forget, because my overwhelming spideysense was that it probably basically said, nice family you’ve got there and it would be a shame if anything happened to it.
RP
@Cervantes: What are you trying to say? That this report is basically pointless? I can’t agree with that. The report acknowledges that the United States tortured people. As noted above, that is objectively a good thing.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@RP: You’re dealing with a group of spoiled brats who would have bitched about getting a Porsche for their 16th birthday, because it wasn’t a convertible.
I’m just about done with “progressives”, “liberals”, “leftists”, whatever you want to call them. Nothing is ever good enough, and they’re perfectly fine to take one step forward and two steps back just so long as their precious purity identity is not threatened. Let me ask you all something: where do I go when the right is abhorrent and the left refuses to do anything to stop them?
Linnaeus
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
You work on creating a better left (and by that I mean a more effective one). Easier said than done, I know.
Cervantes
@RP:
What am I trying to say? I’m just trying to find out what you mean. I’ll ask again: other than its own existence, what are “the benefits of the report” that ought to be more celebrated?
You add:
Sure, but the stark fact of the torture had already been acknowledged some time ago, even by the President of the United States (“We tortured some folks.”)
Cervantes
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
“Refuses to do anything to stop them”? Are you referring to the fact that no one who tortured or authorized torture has been held accountable?
? Martin
@Linnaeus:
It was only an important economic and social institution for white people. While correct, it is obscene to make that comment without stating in equal terms what it represented to black people. It seeks to excuse slavery by stating that it was a statistical positive, the very definition of tyranny of the majority. It’d be understandable coming from the purveyors of slavery, but they’re all dead two generations. Nobody today has a dog in that hunt, yet they continue to defend the institution because they know they still profit from the tailings of that practice – generational poverty of african americans and a framework of policies that keep a continuous thumb on the scales in favor of whites. They know the damage is still being done and the only way to deny it is to deny the source of it – blacks got free room and board and the opportunity to sing songs, what could be better?
PJ
@Raven Onthehill: At least a third of the country was against the war (myself included), not to mention that more of the voting electorate decided for Gore over Bush. To state this was “our will made whole” is insulting to people who hated pretty much everything Bush did and said because his actions and attitudes were repugnant to truth, decency, and the rule of law.
Nonetheless, we are a (very crippled) democracy, and our elected representatives voted to give Bush the power to invade Afghanistan and Iraq and to do as he saw fit with little or no oversight or criticism. It is our country, right or wrong (and particularly when it is wrong), and we will bear the blame for the shameful things that were done in our name.
RP
@CONGRATULATIONS!: My memory might be a little foggy, but I seem to recall a whole bunch of people complaining because they were absolutely sure the report wouldn’t be released. Now that it’s been released…too little, too late.
Linnaeus
@? Martin:
Saying that something is significant or important historically – which slavery was in the United States – is not the same as saying it was a positive in the normative sense. But I understand that’s not what the Kochs mean by that.
ETA: And yes, I agree of course that one should not understate the effects of slavery on black Americans.
Irony Abounds
@Linnaeus: I share the frustration. I would love to see Cheney have his ankles broken then forced to stand upright in chains for a few days. Being the cowardly bastard that he is of course he’d probably faint at the very prospect of that. Nonetheless, the frustration is only exacerbated if the realities of the world are ignored.
Cervantes
@RP:
If “a whole bunch of people” were complaining because they wanted a carefully redacted summary released and even its unredacted contents ignored, then my memory is foggier than yours.
PJ
@Cervantes: There are at least two benefits to the release of the report:
1) This might be the first in an extremely long series of steps to hold to account those who promoted and authorized torture, whether it be in the form of actual trials (less likely) or some kind of truth and reconciliation process (more likely). And when I say long, I mean long – Cambodia is just now prosecuting many of the leaders of the Khmer Rouge for their atrocities committed in the ’70s. But the will for this has to come from the people, which leads to the second benefit –
2) For many Americans, this report is the first significant public discussion of the details of the US torture regime. Obviously, if people wanted to read about this subject, there are probably a dozen books out there which contain damning details (I’ve read a few of them), but these accounts rarely get any play in the media, and are easy to ignore. This report is less easy to ignore. Obviously, many Americans would rather avoid this subject altogether, because it implicates their own beliefs and behaviors. But in the past few days, I’ve seen more front page coverage of this issue since, I’m guessing, the photos from Abu Ghraib became public. Americans have to become more conscious of the torture regime before they will develop the national conscience (by which I mean at least 2/3 of the people) to have it thoroughly disclosed or prosecuted.
Cervantes
@PJ:
Potential benefits? Sure, I can see the potential you outline …
But, to put it mildly, that potential is not self-actualizing. What needs to happen for it to be realized? What can we do? And did you catch Udall’s list of complaints against the president? What should the president do?
Plus even with our foggy memories, we can remember other reports — many in my lifetime, perhaps many in yours as well. What happened in their wake? Do you foresee the same things happening or not happening in the potential future you outline above?
ellennellee
@nastybrutishntall:
wow! nastybrute person, you rock! and just look; nobody here noticed.
too busy whining about how things should be done, as if they could do any better were they in such esteemed positions facing the same circumstances and consequences obama and others (inc. udall and feinstein) have and do.
i recall reading a good bit of vaclav havel almost exactly 14 – not 13, but 14 years ago. not after 9/11, but after the supremes handed the presidency over to the most evil of forces. that date, for me, should enjoy more infamy than 9/11. and, ironically enough, the anniversary of that fateful decision is tomorrow.
always thought W little more than a bumbledefudd, a stumbler with an evil strain (cherry bombs in frogs, and karla faye come to mind), compared to cheney and rummy who were, are, and always have been evil with intent and determination, through and through.
but knowing this crew and their minions would be running things, i decided it would be a good idea to learn about how those in oppressed nations like eastern bloc countries survived.
of course, it turns out i could have just moved to NOLA or oakland, but … i’d say i digress, but actually, that’s really the same topic (see conclusion, below).
what havel pointed out was that the resistance finally realized their public efforts were futile, as the soviet powers simply squashed them, killing off all their best leaders, while the people were essentially advertising themselves as targets. not smart.
so they all went underground. they simply became local cooperatives, with local governance, and they all took care of each other, ironically in the true spirit of the socialist name their oppressors were defiling. they made sure everyone had access to food, water, shelter, medical care, and education. and they made a point to cozy up to the local gubmint ref, who after all had to live amongst them, and worked out deals for turbines and medicines and so on beyond their local grasp. but otherwise, they became totally independent of the centralized powers.
we’ve been so blessed with obama’s taking the helm here, and i could not agree with you more; his decency and humanity and intelligence have likely not congregated in the WH since jefferson dined alone. but jefferson was possess of his own flaws, and he faced a different set of challenges and fragile structures; we were then, after all, an experiment. however, because we were so new we could honestly draw on an almost bottomless well of hope.
ironically enough, for obama.
what havel ultimately observed was that moscow had become so inflated, spending all its resources on afghanistan (ah, the ironies explode), and its centralized structures so top-heavy, that it ultimately toppled from the weight of its very predictable instability. the good news was that many local communities already had stability in place. at least in the bloc countries. did not fare so well in russia or cities, where the already rampant organized crime simply took over, legitimizing what had been done for decades.
here, though, there is so much divisive splintering, i’m not sure if that strategy would work. it feels more like we’re gearing up for civil war.
to that, i got nothin’.
but, thx again for your thoughts. good on ya.
Paul in KY
@mzrad: Good on ya for having the balls to do that.
Steve from Antioch
@cmorenc:
That would almost be a comfort if true. Its worse that his inaction is probably explained by cowardice and political calculation.
Paul in KY
@Just Some Fuckhead: You probably can not rule that out.
coin operated
@PJ:
My reply to Soonergrunt’s last paragraph was going to be “up yours with a splintered violin”…but you said it so much better. Thank you.
Barbara
@Linnaeus: I remember reading about the new research about the economics of slavery in the NYT. I’m not a finance person so most of the details escaped me, but what I took away from it was that the financial markets made money off of slavery in ways that didn’t have to do directly with owning slaves or even with the buying and selling of slaves — sort of how like our contemporary financial markets were making money off of housing without having anything to do directly with owning/buying/selling houses.
As a result, and ironically, even a well-to-do Northern Abolitionist would have arguably owed his/her comfortable lifestyle at least in part indirectly to slavery. The implication is, the entire citizenship of the US was complicit in benefiting from the institution of slavery.
It’s easy to see how a plantation owner benefited from slavery, it’s much more challenging to see the entire and complex web of advantage produced off of slavery.
Martin @ comment 90 is correct in his observations, needless to say. But he is also proving my earlier point, that we have to be very careful how we use the word “important.” Maybe we should always use quotations?
Roy G.
What a piece of solipsistic crap laid out by Soonerboy in that last paragraph. He’s still unaware that there were hundreds of thousands of us protesting in NYC against the ginned-up invasion of Iraq, and how we were extremely denigrated as being pussies afraid to go to war, wah, wah, even as to those who were really paying attention, the causus belli for Iraq was illegitimate from the get go (‘Curveball’, Chalabi, etc etc).
But what do I know? I’m just an out-of-touch coastal elite… from downtown NYC who lived through this horror, only to see the 9/11 become a political football and war drum for idiots like Sooner to bang on.
So, the ‘Liberals’ were really for the war and didn’t complain until a couple of years later? Looks more like an retroactive explanation for Sooner’s own gullibility than anyone else’s. Whocooda knowed? indeed.
agorabum
@cmorenc: to add to that, one of the last presidents who talked about reigning in the CIA after a cluster – failure was Kennedy. Know what I’m saying?
Tree With Water
Anyone willing to pat Feinstein on the back hasn’t been paying attention.
Lizzy L
@Tree With Water: Disagree. I have my strong differences with DiFi (and yeah, I live in CA) but without her pushing this report would probably never have been written or published, and I believe we have already established that the existence of this report, with all its flaws, is a good thing. At the very least, it means that the scumbags whose decisions made torture the policy of the country (John Yoo, I’m looking at you) are once more having to defend themselves in public.
Howard Beale IV
@nastybrutishntall: Once a neoliberal douchebag, always a neoliberal douchebag, I guess.