White Millennials are pretty much done with Obama according to Gallup. His approval rating is as bad now among them as it is among older white Americans.
Rest of America seems pretty damn happy with the guy, majority approval across the board among all age groups.
Also, Americans see things getting better financially and have for some time now.
A majority of Americans say their standing of living is getting better and that’s been true since 2012. I find it weird that President Obama is having such a hard time among one particular group of people considering.
Oh wait.
Now, naturally the right is saying this proves all opposition to Obama is about Obama’s policies because obviously they hurt Millennials so that’s why there was a drop. That’s only feasible if you take into account only white Millennial voters and ignore literally everyone else in America, where among white voters Obama has been unpopular since 2009 and popular among non-white voters for the same period.
It just indicates a reversion to mean, in more than one sense.
RP
The US summed up in a single depressing chart.
SteveinSC
“It just indicates a reversion to mean, in more than one sense.”
Bullshit.
Mike in NC
Yup, it’s amazing how deeply, insanely racist this country remains. Maybe check back in 100 years?
sparrow
This makes me sad, but I guess I am not surprised. Young white people are particularly prone to the IGMFY syndrome and the “I’m not racist, I don’t even SEE race” bullshit. A large number of the kids I partied with in college (when I was more or less apolitical) are still fucking libertarians (I excuse this up to age 20 only).
Ugh.
Alex S.
Interesting, the personal living standards are getting better, yet the majority of people also say that the country is going in the wrong direction. Much like people usually reelect their local poiticians, yet hate Congress. People must be worrying about something intangible, something vague.
Just One More Canuck
@SteveinSC: Why is it bullshit?
Mike E
I was gonna comment on this but then I just learned about a new local development: a noodle shop opened up, called Pho and Crawfish 79!! How did I miss the other 78?!
ruemara
There are lies, damned lies and statistics. And “we don’t see race” is the new “I have a black friend”.
ellennellee
excellent points.
i would just add that it also indicates a big diff in how whites and non-whites register disappointment, which is a function of expectations.
non-whites have a long and practiced history of keeping their expectations in check.
whites? mmmm, not so much. it’s part of that entitlement thang.
Villago Delenda Est
.It’s the melanin.
There is no other explanation if you have more than three working synapses.
geg6
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yup. I hate white people mostly. And I am one.
BGinCHI
This one is simple: the GOP has fought tooth and nail to fuck up the economy for young people and middle to lower class wage earners and paid NO political price for it.
And since Obama sits in the big chair he gets the blame.
America fuck yeah.
schrodinger's cat
Could it be that younger white people are more susceptible to the anti-Obama rhetoric because it comes from the people they know and love, in many cases, family?
JPL
@ruemara: My black friend is a repub and some how we have weathered some pretty intense discussions. She did stop listening to eric erickson after i quoted her his goat f..king comment.
Violet
@ruemara:
Hey! Stephen Colbert has been using both of those for years. There’s no “new” about it.
FlipYrWhig
@ellennellee:
Ya know, I think this makes a lot of sense. My impression is that “millennials” did in fact have a lot of hope that electing Obama was going to Make Things Different, and instead what has happened is… politics, which are a slog. That’s deflating… _relative to expectations_. Older people didn’t have such expectations. Nonwhite people probably didn’t have such expectations either, for different reasons.
sparrow
@ellennellee: True. I saw this first-hand in teaching an entry-level science course. I had all kinds of white kids* coming up to me whining that they neeeeeeeeded an A, or to pass, or whatever. As if grades were awarded on how much I liked them or appreciated their “need”. NONE of my black kids did that. They did come to me and ask “what do I need to do to pass”, but that’s different. If I had to say which group was into “personal responsibility” it was the latter by far. I try not to build stereotypes, but it’s a pretty noticeable difference, and it is exactly a difference in “entitlement”.
*not all of them, but a decent fraction, and basically all of the rich kids.
schrodinger's cat
@BGinCHI: I agree, the Democrats should have embraced the language of Occupy Wall Street. We are the 99%, and the GOP wants to screw us all over on the behalf of the 0.1%
FlipYrWhig
@Alex S.:
Correct: Those People showing up to take their stuff, all the while spreading crime, disease, and terror.
JPL
@schrodinger’s cat: Listening to the populace, you would think that nothing has been accomplished by the President. The memories of 2008 have faded.
Boehner said wall street didn’t receive anything in the bill. His statement will go unchallenged, I fear.
Villago Delenda Est
@sparrow: Ah, the joys of affluenza.
Wipe them out. All of them.
schrodinger's cat
@sparrow: Probably a rich kid thing more than a white thing. I saw this attitude in spades among extremely rich Saudi international students.
Linnaeus
@sparrow:
Interesting. I never took notice of racial differences in how students as for help, what their grade expectations are, etc. during my years of teaching and tutoring, but I suppose it wouldn’t surprise me if I saw the same pattern as you did.
ETA: Though as schrodinger’s cat points out, it’s probably strongly influenced by class as well.
kc
@ellennellee:
That’s right, we should all learn to suck it up and accept low paying jobs (if any) and crushing student debt as the best we can do.
Tommy
@Mike in NC: It is a hard thing to understand. I recall a conversation I had with a former co-worker. White dude. Said at night if walking down the street and sees an African American youth he might cross to the other side of the street. That might not sound so strange until you learn he married an African American women in the early 70s. He says he talks to his wife about it all the time. Feels guilty about it. Doesn’t understand where it comes from because it is almost a reflex reaction.
kc
@BGinCHI:
Yep, there’s that.
BGinCHI
Does anyone have a good explanation for why the WH fought so hard for that shit CRapnibus bill that harms ACA and a couple other bad provisions?
I can’t believe they didn’t put the GOP’s feet to the fire on that!
WTF?
FlipYrWhig
@schrodinger’s cat: Lotta white suburban professionals in the Democratic Party ranks who don’t want to think of themselves as on the same side as hipsters in drum circles. Different rhetoric appeals to them. (The overlap is “fairness.”)
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@kc: Yup. Note the lowest non-Hispanic Black support is in the youngest age group, also too. Kids just starting out are under huge pressures now with low-paying jobs, low hours if they can find work, and little hope for pay increases to help them build a nest-egg to buy a car or furniture for an apartment or make a dent in their student loans. It’s not surprising that support for Obama is soft among that group. It’s hard to feel like the president is doing a good job when your economic circumstances still suck.
I see that the 2014 poll was for numbers from January through November, so there may be some skewing as the economic improvements have come mostly in the last part of the year.
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
Tommy
@sparrow: I saw the same thing as a grad assistant. Other then doing research for my major professor my next most important duty was to hold office hours. I am not sure a single white, rich person every came in not to bitch they should be getting a better grade. It was unfair that my teacher held attendance as part of the grade.
Minorities came in and almost everyone asked what they could do better. Could they write another paper for a better grade.
I always found that interesting ….
FlipYrWhig
@BGinCHI: I presume they decided it was the best deal they could get with the current Congress, which while suck-tastic is better than the next Congress will be.
schrodinger's cat
@FlipYrWhig: I don’t understand your comment. Economically, if you are not among the 1% you are getting screwed by the Republican agenda. White collar workers are not immune.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@BGinCHI: My hypothesis from last night, FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
Betty Cracker
@Alex S.:
The people who say the country is going in the wrong direction aren’t wrong. But they should blame St. Reagan and his ideological heirs for teeing up a new Gilded Age, not Obama.
@ellennellee: That’s an interesting point, and it would explain why white millennials would start out approving Obama’s job performance 58% in 2009 and then drop to 34% in 2014. It seems more likely to me that the drop is due to frustration with the lack of pony production (in same cases, justified) than that white millennials have become more racist over the last five years. Younguns are impatient, as any parent or teacher can attest.
Va Highlander
Maybe the Russian investment in anti-government, anti-American propaganda aimed specifically at young folk is starting to pay off?
schrodinger's cat
The students who bitched and moaned about their grades the most were pre-med students. Most of these students had put off taking physics till they were seniors and their C in physics was going to screw up their GPA.
FlipYrWhig
@BGinCHI: Some suggestions here: Cromnibus Survives (Washington Monthly)
BGinCHI
@FlipYrWhig: Really? If so, that is one-dimensional chess. Which is called checkers I think.
So tired of the current political climate.
Ruckus
@sparrow:
The difference is
“What do I have to do to get ahead?”
and
“What do you need to do for me to get me ahead?”
The difference between being entitled to everything in life and having to actually accomplish something. May be one reason GWB was not only acceptable but a role model for some. Has never accomplished anything positive and yet he still was president. One can get pretty high up the food chain being an entitled asshole. And an entire political party has been built on that premise.
Elizabelle
I thought they were smarter than that.
Maybe not.
Marc
It’s worth remembering that approval rating is not the same thing as voter preference. Obama did 20 points better than these numbers among Latinos and Asians in 2012, and 10 points better among black and white millennials.
Plenty of Obama voters here express their disapproval of POTUS (to put it mildly) on a daily basis. They still support the guy. These numbers are only meaningful if you’re already looking to gin up racial resentment.
samiam
For once I read every single comment here and not one of you laser dot chasers questioned the poll. Only the reasons for the result.
For starters, this poll does not compare the president to anyone on the right.
Also, stock market at record highs, housing recovering nicely, economy pumping out jobs, 2 wars shut down etc. etc.
BGinCHI
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Points taken, but not satisfying at all.
A plague on both their houses.
FlipYrWhig
@schrodinger’s cat: I’m not talking about it from a truth perspective, I’m talking about it from a marketing/messaging perspective. Middle-class white suburbanites and professionals don’t see themselves as a vanguard fighting against exploitation. At most they want to see themselves as being treated “fairly.” “We are the 99%” is a slogan that’s closer to radical and militant than that Democratic segment is ever going to like. That’s why “the Democrats” aren’t going to consolidate behind a message like it.
SatanicPanic
@FlipYrWhig: “Older people didn’t have such expectations.”
I don’t know, older people, especially right now, especially older WHITE people, have some pretty insane expectations about what politicians will do for them.
White people are weird
satby
@BGinCHI: Yeah, I’m always ready to point to racism because it’s a huge factor, but in this case I think the economy not improving well enough for that age group, coupled with impatience about privacy, Guantanamo, unicorns and ponies in every garage factors as much as racism. Because that’s what I hear from some in that age cohort; Obama voters all of the ones I know.
He turned out not to magically impose liberal policies on the country and make things better for them.
I don’t speak to die hard racists if I can help it.
schrodinger's cat
@FlipYrWhig: They can continue burying their head in the sand and continue supporting neoliberal economic policies while their real wages stagnate.
SatanicPanic
@samiam: and he’s in his sixth year, I don’t know why people expect him to be any higher.
GregB
@JPL:
As someone from NH I hope to see the day he gets a pie in the face for that despicable comment.
Mike in NC
If wondering what to give a special relative for Christmas, consider Martin Mull’s study entitled “A History of White People in America”. Volume 2 is now available.
FromTheBackOfTheRoom
It must be very strange to be President Obama. A man of extraordinary vision and brilliance approaching to genius, he can’t get anyone to notice. He is like a great painter or musician who is ahead of his time, and who unveils one masterpiece after another to a reception that, when not bored, is hostile.
Amirite?
The bitter dead-enders are so tiresomely predictable.
dmsilev
@schrodinger’s cat:
Oh, God, pre-meds. The bane of my existence during my TA years. Whine, whine, whine, just wanted an A without doing the work to justify it. Then there was the internal competition within the class; there were stories of students showing up a few minutes early to a class just so they could take _all_ of the copies of a handout and thereby disadvantage their classmates (this was back in the Neolithic when we distributed things to students on _paper_; kids, ask your parents). That’s a good way to get yourself flunked from a class if you get caught. We also had cases of ringers taking exams. Etc. etc.
Teaching those kids really ruined whatever faith I had in the medical system. _These_ were going to be the doctors of tomorrow…
FlipYrWhig
@schrodinger’s cat: Regardless, we live in a nation with a lot more blase, distracted, middle-of-the-road people than anything else, and that’s who we need to persuade. Tune Unified Party Message accordingly.
Tommy
@SatanicPanic: Yes us white people are strange. My parents about 20 years ago inherited a ton of money. Most of it is in the stock market. They are making money hand over fist. Literally millions. They are still kind of moderate Republicans.* I am like dad/mom, what more do you want?
*Mom did vote for Obama because she thought Palin was “shit all stupid” to use her direct quote.
Violet
@schrodinger’s cat: I agree with FlipYrWhig that white collar, suburban, white Democrats or Dem-leaning don’t want to be associated with the freaky hippies and their drum circles shutting down traffic and living in tents on sidewalks.
I also agree with you that the very same are getting screwed by the Republicans. What is needed is a better way of framing the argument and some politicians with spine to sell the rhetoric. I think it was Kay, or someone in a Kay thread, who suggested “Workers and Takers” instead of “Makers and Takers” because it classifies the 1%-ers as “takers,” which they usually are through all their tax breaks. They are also not workers.
Personally I think “workers” is still too associated with unions and blue collar labor and white collar professionals may not want to see themselves as “workers.” But I love the idea of calling the 1% “takers.”
As for the politicians with a spine, I’m sure there are some over in the unicorn pasture.
debbie
Spoiled brats.
Mnemosyne
@FromTheBackOfTheRoom:
Yes, because invading a sovereign country on a flimsy excuse is exactly the same as reforming health insurance, therefore Bush and Obama are both the same. Good one.
Roger Moore
@Mike E:
For whatever reason, Pho places love to include a number as part of their name. I think it’s often the year the restaurant (or chain, in many places) was founded. There’s a small Pho 79 chain here in Southern California but my Vietnamese coworkers say Pho 54 is better. The best one I’ve encountered is one that didn’t have an English name and that the coworker who took me there just called “Scary Lady Pho” after the proprietor.
catclub
What kind of happy juice are the Asian millenials getting?
I was also surprised to find that in 2008-9 Obama approval by millenial whites was only 58%.
Luckily the future is with the Asians, Latinos and Blacks.
Belafon
@dmsilev:
It really helps to think of physicians as glorified plumbers.
Betty Cracker
@Marc:
Another fair point. When I was in that age group, I groused about Bill Clinton all the time, but I voted for the guy twice.
Woodrowfan
@schrodinger’s cat: I see it more with male Saudis than female.
SatanicPanic
@Tommy: Who knows man. I don’t get it. I don’t know enough older white people to even venture a guess. I have a conservative white uncle, but I think he’s just like that because he knows it annoys his liberal brothers.
catclub
@FromTheBackOfTheRoom:
Or it shows that even being someone who makes things better rather than makes things worse, will not be appreciated. Expectations run much higher.
I always appreciated that GWBush told Cheney to fuck off when Cheney wanted to invade/bomb Iran.
Mnemosyne
@Roger Moore:
There’s always 9021 Pho in Glendale (and, obviously, Beverly Hills). I still want to try it.
Shakezula
So the GOP will work towards making Free, white & 31 a voting requirement.
Violet
@Mnemosyne: OT–How’s the weather? Did you get in to work today?
schrodinger's cat
@Woodrowfan: I have never had a Saudi student who was female.
ETA: On the other hand, whiny pre-med students transcend gender and race.
SatanicPanic
@Roger Moore: Pho King isn’t amazing, but the name is good for some juvenile snickering.
Spinwheel
So the fact my generation has been totally screwed by both parties at every opportunity, including by Obama, has to be racist.
You never miss a beat do you.
Instead of sneering at us ask yourself why only one-quarter of the country bothered to even vote in November.
Then ask yourself why anyone under 30 would vote in 2016 at all.
...now I try to be amused
@FromTheBackOfTheRoom:
Yep. I expect Barack Obama will be far more appreciated by history than by present-day Americans. I also suspect he will surpass Jimmy Carter in being more appreciated as an ex-president than he was as President.
Elizabelle
Were most of the white millenials sampled male? Because
WaPost link.
BBC had a segment on this this morning. Male Idiot Theory.
schrodinger's cat
@Shakezula: You forgot to add male and property owner in the list.
Elizabelle
@FromTheBackOfTheRoom:
Believe that’s Hind-whatever from Powerline? Tee hee.
Tommy
@Violet:
I think that is very true. My parents love me but think I am a hippie liberal because I might recycle, vote Democrat, and have one tie-dye tee-shirt.
Woodrowfan
@schrodinger’s cat: I get a fair number of female Saudis, over a third of my Saudi students are young women. They tend to be better students too (although that is NOT always the case).
Marc
@Betty Cracker: Also forgot to mention – nobody would look at these numbers and think that Latinos or Asians were trending Republican, even though the drop-off from their election numbers is twice as large as white millennials.
It’s an approval rating for a lame-duck president. No surprises here.
Capri
@Villago Delenda Est:
So young white voters were not racist in 2008, but somehow turned in the subsequent years? If Obama had won his elections with older, white Mississippi numbers for all whites all along there would be something to that, but as far as I can tell, Obama hasn’t gotten any blacker since he took office.
Blaming it on racism is way too superficial a response to the change, IMHO.
schrodinger's cat
@catclub: They are not getting happy juice, they are more aware of the fact that GOP has become the White People’s party, for obvious reasons.
Cacti
Similar to the fact that Obama ran up a big margin with women voters because of huge victories with non-white women.
White women went 54% for Romney.
schrodinger's cat
@Woodrowfan: I guess female Saudi students must not take physics then.
Spinwheel
@Marc:
Congratulations! You have successfully nailed 90% of Zandar’s posts!
peach flavored shampoo
Hooooleeee f#ckin shit. Are we really going here in damn near 2015?
I thought I’d seen everything w/r/t gay bashing, but lord this must the Holy Grail of fuckyoos to the gay community.
SatanicPanic
@Spinwheel: I’m a genxer, I’ve been there myself not that long ago, so I know how it is, but seriously, maybe there are things you haven’t figured out yet
FlipYrWhig
@Violet: The Elizabeth Warren frame (which Obama also uses) is about fairness. You’re doing what you’re supposed to do, you’re even pretty good at it, but you feel like you can’t catch a break. Why? Because big finance and multinational corporations rigged the game to make it unfair. The right basically blames people of color and meddling government and says that populism is just success envy. Then again, some Democrats don’t like the scapegoating of finance and corporations because as malevolent as they are economically, their executives are often pro-intellectual, pro-gay, “social liberals” and so forth. That’s the tricky bit. And that’s before even mentioning the degree to which finance is like the home-state industry for places like NY, NJ, CT, and DE.
BGinCHI
CREED finally in the news!!!!!
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/scott-stapp-reportedly-threatened-to-kill-obama
Lock that fucker up before he sings again.
Cacti
@Spinwheel:
So the fact my generation has been totally screwed by both parties at every opportunity, including by Obama, has to be racist.
Says the poster who equates black lives with the sanctity of his cell phone.
SRW1
Dear Mr Zandar,
you forgot to apply the 3/5 scaling to the non-white responders in that poll.
Yours truly,
GOP Poll Unskewing Taskforce
Kryptik, A Man Without a Country
Pretty much any cursory glance at Facebook or Twitter puts the lie to any outside hope that the newer generations will be any less racist than the previous. Fuck’s sake, I’m starting to wonder if ‘Milleniials’ are actually more racist than ‘Gen X’ at this point.
Belafon
@Spinwheel:
Cool, we have our very own “You’re racist for pointing out racism” commenter.
SatanicPanic
@Marc: “It’s an approval rating for a lame-duck president. No surprises here. ”
THIS. There’s no more mystery to it than that people.
El Caganer
So does this mean we can finally put that tired, tired ‘we just have to wait for all the white olds to die’ shit in the dump where it belongs?
Spinwheel
@SatanicPanic: You’re right.
I haven’t figured out yet why I should vote for the Democrats when they are indistinguishable from the Republicans on the issues that matter to me as a voter.
If you wonder why Democrats keep losing and states keep getting more and more red, maybe you should get Obama and company to pay attention.
Jeff
I’m a white male millennial who voted for Obama twice (and would do so again, if I had to go back and do either of the elections over), but if a pollster called me today and asked if I approve of the job that Obama is doing, I’d probably have to say “no”.
That’s not racism – it’s just that I feel like my political choices at the moment range between getting the flu on one hand, and getting ebola on the other. Given the choice, I’ll take the flu every time, but don’t expect me to tell anyone I’m happy to have it.
SRW1
@Spinwheel:
Apparently, each generation has to learn the somewhat painfull answer to that question by firsthand experience. Sigh.
Cacti
@El Caganer:
So does this mean we can finally put that tired, tired ‘we just have to wait for all the white olds to die’ shit in the dump where it belongs?
No, it’s still true. But for the reason that as the Silents and Boomers die off, the country is going to get increasingly less white. We’ve already reached the point where running on white racial resentment is a loser at the Presidential level.
SatanicPanic
@Spinwheel: dude, no. the number of single issue voters who only care about the NSA is tiny and not driving voting patterns.
El Caganer
@Cacti: But that’s not usually the argument this phrase is attached to – it’s usually how the youngs are just so awesome on matters racial, which is a total load of bollocks.
Ruckus
@Spinwheel:
I do believe that you are a useless one note idiot. Put down the crack pipe and get a fucking life.
Amir Khalid
@BGinCHI:
I agree that Scott Stapp and Creed have many many sins against music to atone for, but the poor man is mentally ill. One should not mock his illness.
Elizabelle
Haven’t looked at the poll, but a lot of the results might be frustration with political ugliness and gridlock, and people have an outsized idea of how much Obama can get done.
Plus major media drums in how awful Obama is, day after day after day.
It’s ignorance and cynicism and economic anxiety because we do have a 2-tier economy with lessened opportunity.
Violet
@FlipYrWhig: I’ve said before that I’m not really in support of the “fairness” framing. I think it makes people sound like they’re whining kids: “That’s not fair!” Yeah, well, too bad. Life’s not fair. I get the concept, but I balk at the word and the way it’s being used. I wish I had a better word or phrase to use instead, but I don’t.
I wonder if I’m the only one who has the “shut up you whiny toddler” reaction to hearing about fairness? Maybe I’m alone in that, but if not, it may be why it also isn’t as effective as it could be.
I personally prefer to frame it as “wrong”–it’s wrong that 1%ers get so many tax breaks they pay less than Warren Buffet’s secretary. Not that it’s unfair. Life’s not fair–deal with it. It’s wrong. The tax laws are set up wrongly to benefit the rich. That’s just wrong.
I’m sure there are plenty of reasons why “wrong” doesn’t work as a framing concept, too, though.
SatanicPanic
@El Caganer: They’re probably a little better- I mean, I don’t know any young people who grew up when it was OK to lynch people. If they’re not then we might as well give up now because nothing we do matters.
Tommy
@FlipYrWhig:
That is where I started to turn my parents to our party. I noted in another comment my parents have more money then they can spend in a lifetime, but they also (rightly so I might add) think I should make my own way in the world and they don’t give handouts. A number of years ago I lost my job. Things were really bleak for a few years. I talked to my parents in detail about how I felt like I was down, and society (insert big finance and multinational corporations) was just taking pleasure in kicking me.
They couldn’t believe the reality of how a bank can fu*k you. Credit card companies. Health insurance. At times my father said “that can’t be legal” and I was like I guess it is.
Then I did something really dumb, and got a DUI. I’d not even had a speeding ticket in my life but once into the system, it is very hard to get out. I did ask my parents for help, and even throwing money at the problem wasn’t that helpful.
Things are much better now, but when talking politics with my parents, I often reference back to this time and ask what if I wasn’t white, college education, parents with financial means. Where could I have ended up?
drkrick
@schrodinger’s cat:
I pretty much destroyed my relationship with my father after spending most of my adolescence not taking his racist bullshit at the dinner table (the family was probably pretty relieved when I got an after school job that got me out of the house before their dinnertime several days a week). I don’t see any reason why today’s young people can’t be equally stubborn.
Villago Delenda Est
@SatanicPanic:
QFT. Most white people really need a major emotional event to adjust their attitudes.
Karen in GA
@BGinCHI: I was going to say, how was he going to kill him? Sing Creed songs until Obama slit his own wrists?
Hey, it would work on me.
SatanicPanic
@Violet: I agree, “life’s not fair” often pops into my head. “deserve” is another word that kind of doesn’t sit well with me. When someone says “I deserve this” it usually comes off as justifying something that they probably shouldn’t do
Mike E
@SatanicPanic: I must ignore all customs and most traffic rules and drive out to this place, post haste!
Karen in GA
@Spinwheel:
As a woman, I’m very glad to hear none of my issues matter to you as a voter.
Speaking of issues, voters, and Democrats and Republicans being indistinguishable, are you familiar with the Supreme Court at all?
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
As William Munny said to Bill Dagget, just before he fired the kill shot in Unforgiven…
“Deserve’s” got nothin’ to do with it.
drkrick
@…now I try to be amused:
We’ll see. Stuff like whipping this bill looks like he could be setting himself up for a pretty un-Carter like post Presidency that I won’t be so admiring of.
SatanicPanic
@Mike E: El Cajon Blvd, San Diego!
FlipYrWhig
@Violet: @SatanicPanic: IMHO “Life’s not fair” is a quintessentially conservative thing to say. If it’s not, let’s make it fairer. I never liked that retort even when I was a kid.
Rhetorically speaking, I agree that “but that’s not fair!” seems juvenile, but “fair”-related terms like fair share, fair shot, fair shake: those are all good.
Gindy51
@Spinwheel: Because if you don’t, your female friends won’t be using birth control, be able to manage their own health, and you will be a wage slave for the rest of your miserable life.
Violet
@SatanicPanic: Agree. I don’t like “deserve” either. “Americans deserve better.” Seriously? Why?
I’d much rather politicians came out and called it “wrong” the way the system is rigged against the average person. And turn the Republicans’ rhetoric back on them. Those mythical 1950’s they loved so much? Hey! Let’s go back to those tax rates! There’s a reason why society was so great! Money was much more evenly distributed and everyone could afford a vacation, which they took because it was protected by union contracts! I know, racist laws were in place and it wasn’t great for anyone of color, but the point of my argument is to turn their claims back on them to our benefit.
There are no Democrats out there who are really working for the little guy. They can’t because they’re dependent on rich people to help fund their campaigns. They can’t afford to anger them. They system is totally rigged. Takes people like Elizabeth Warren, who is probably in a very safe seat now, to keep hammering it home. There just aren’t enough of her.
Ruckus
@Elizabelle: 2-tier economy with lessened opportunity.
I very much like the concept of 99%. Because on the surface it is true. But if you dig deeper there really is a third group, the bottom 50%. These are the people with little to no opportunity any more. 50-60 yrs ago one could work hard, go to school and move up. How the hell does anyone do that anymore? If you are in the bottom 50%(just a gut feeling on that %) the only thing school is going to get you is massive debt, work as hard as you want and get minimum pay, purchase a house you say, how?
We may have legally ended slavery but we still have financial bondage and it is harder than ever to get out of. Technically that is lessened opportunity but it’s lessened down to about zero for the bottom half of the population.
scav
@peach flavored shampoo: Religiously flavored medicine indeed. Such a gift to so many among us. See a varient from Ireland. Symphysiotomy – Ireland’s brutal alternative to caesareans.
john b
As a white 32 year old, I can say that the past few years has been blow after blow to me and my family having any sort of stability. And many of those blows could have been blunted by simple federal policies changing (or federal budgets not being treated as some sort of game with no consequences). I don’t blame Obama for much of this, but it’s hard not to get totally discouraged. And many of my generation whom I’ve talked to have very little hope that Congress is acting to help anyone other than themselves and their corporate donors.
SatanicPanic
@FlipYrWhig: I agree that coming from a position of authority it’s a mean thing to say. Maybe I need a better phrase for it because I need something that says “there actually is no such thing as karma, if life is going to be fair, we need to make it that way”. Some sort of alternative to “if you work hard, you’ll be rewarded” baloney
JMV Pyro
As a millennial, I’d say that it’s a mix of both ‘color blind’ racism and feeling left to rot by the economy. I know I was raised and taught in school that racism was something that bad people did in the past that we didn’t do anymore. That was so wrong it’s not even funny, but you get the idea. Add that in with the student loan crisis, the fact that neither party has a good grasp on tech/internet issues, and wage stagnation and you have a breeding ground for resentment.
This is why I think Rand Paul is so dangerous. Sure, he probably won’t get the nomination in 2016, but he’s showing the GOP how to turn that resentment and glibertarianism into votes all over again.
Tractarian
I’ll be honest, I’ve always thought that the racism card was a bit overblown when it comes to opposition Obama. Of course there’s plenty of racism in this country – but a Democratic president does not have to be black in order for about 45% of the population to automatically label him a liar, tyrant, terrorist sympathizer, etc. With the economy in the toilet, it’s no wonder that his approval numbers were also swirling down.
But in the last months, there really has been a steady drumbeat of good economic news. Falling gas prices, lower inflation, stocks still surging, unemployment plummeting. And yet some people just continue to blame the President for all that ails them. Now we see that those “some people” have one thing in common – their skin color.
It’s just really hard to come up with an alternative explanation.
Violet
@FlipYrWhig: I agree with you that “Life’s not fair” isn’t the best retort, but it’s one that’s culturally ingrained and will come to mind when people hear “That’s not fair!”
Agreed. It’s in the use of the word. Kay has used the “That’s not fair” structure and I’ve balked at it in previous threads. We’ve had back and forths on it. I see her point, but I think at some childhood-learned level, it’s an ineffective structure. But, as you said, “fair” can be effectively used elsewhere.
Ruckus
@john b:
That’s because they are correct. @Violet: has it right, Dems are better, but most of them are not doing much for those who need a hand. At least they aren’t trying to cut off the hand, like conservatives. It’s not a lot but better it is.
The thing is how do we get them to do what a huge portion of the population needs? Just getting elected is very expensive any more and a crap shoot in many cases besides. So we get the bought and paid for politicians. And the big payers are conservatives.
slag
Agreed with those who believe these numbers are more the result of an age and race-related expectations gap than unconscious racism. But if unconscious racism didn’t play any part at all in these numbers, we would truly be living in ahistorical times.
Different generations may come with different branding, but there’s no getting around the fact that we’re all still products of a deeply corrupt racist, sexist, classist society. Just how much that fundamental reality influences our thoughts, feelings, and perceptions is somewhat debatable. But assuming there’s no influence at all is simply illogical.
RareSanity
@Spinwheel:
Maybe one day, you’ll step out of the reddit echo chamber and realize that policy and politics are hard, and change happens over the course of decades, not a few election cycles.
What is happening now, was set in motion almost 40 years ago. What are you trying to set in motion now, that may not be realized for another 40 years?
Actual political change is going to take a lot more than clicking up and down arrows to show your approval or disapproval.
Tommy
@JMV Pyro: I was raised in a family where there were “good” Negros and then the other “N” word. Not my parents but pretty much everybody else in my family. I always felt this was a worse because if you are just flat out racist at least I know exactly who you are.
Belafon
@john b: And the fun part is that the people who believe government is the problem, and will do what they can to screw it up, keep winning because they do what they can to screw it up.
JMV Pyro
@Tommy:
Thing is that where I grew up that kind of overt racism was considered unacceptable. That didn’t make racism go away, it just made it more subtle.
Ruckus
@slag:
This.
It’s been said that humans are complex. We really aren’t all that. But few of us are single issues beings. We can hold conflicting views and think them perfectly normal. -Voting for conservatives will make more opportunities for me. But survival of the self is basic. The next inclusive ring is survival of those known. After that it’s anyone who isn’t a threat, perceived or real. It’s why zero sum is a basic thing to so many, they have to be taught that it is rarely true anymore, if it ever was.
Violet
@JMV Pyro:
Agreed. There is a massive opportunity for someone to step in and take the votes of people who are interested in pot legalization, higher minimum wage, and other things that made the ballots in the recent election and were passed. Rand Paul seems to recognize this and Democrats, who should be supporting such things, are either blind, stupid or willfully ignoring them. In any case it’s a big lost opportunity so far.
Tommy
@slag: I totally agree. Here is a little story for you. Until my brother had a wonderful daughter a few years ago no women had been born into my family for six generations. But it also seems my male family members marry strong, smart women. Later in life when I saw sexism I was confused, because generally speaking the smartest person in the room was a women in my household, and ALL the men knew it.
Or put another way if you are raised in a racist, sexist, classist family you most likely will turn out that way. Of course all do not, but I am thinking those people have to work really hard not to become the person their family was.
Marc
@Tractarian:
Truth. Frankly, I think Obama’s numbers have been amazingly buoyant considering all the shit he’s had to deal with. The man was re-elected with 7.8 percent unemployment!
As for the low numbers in spite of the current good economic news, I would point out that it’s really only good for those at the very top. Look at the median income over the last decade, or the youth unemployment rate, and it’s easy to see why anyone not in the 1% – but especially a millennial – would be dismayed.
Just One More Canuck
@Gindy51: yes, but how would that affect him?
Just One More Canuck
@Gindy51: since he clearly doesnt give a damn about anything but himself (FYWP wouldnt let me edit)
gian
Let me just ponder something.
“Young invincibles” as a target to buy health insurance.
White young adults having more income and being less likely to get subsidized coverage.
Someguy
Racism appears to be a heritable trait, at least in whites.
Davis X. Machina
You can start with getting a huge portion of the population realizing what a huge portion of the population needs.
Right now, that conversation starts with “What have you got for me that’s gestural, symbolic, and rooted in spite?”
Hence the mid-terms.
catclub
@SatanicPanic: Go back and look at the approval ratings lame duck Bill Clinton had. I think they were high 60%.
muddy
How surprising that young people are less interested in politics than older ones. I mean, this is how it was for most people I came up with, but clearly things are supposed to be different now. How extra surprising indeed is that they even answered the poll.
The polls always have choices like, “are you happy with it”. They never ask, Do you think you’d be happier with the alternative? I think the numbers would be very different.
Czanne
@Jeff:
That accords with what I’m hearing from my students, who, while being a poor sample base (22 people, slightly skewed female, median age 24, at a very liberal public university, in a social science field*) are mostly just frustrated with what they see as lack of forward motion. (They’re disgusted with Congress, but alas, the Prsident gets some blame for… Something.)
*on the hard science edge — neuro psych — but still technically a squish science.
Dalunay
My two kids – white millennials — have given up on Obama for two reasons: his treatment of the torture issue, and the very gentle hand his administration has used on Wall Street criminals. One of them sees civic democratic government disappearing, replaced by corporate government (“the grim cyberpunk future is coming, Dad”, the other has become deeply cynical about politicians.
Obama failed to live up to important parts of what we hoped for: a reform of the national security state, action on global warming, and prosecution of the business frauds that caused the economic collapse. Instead, Obama gave us health care — individually useful, needed, but…
I have been hoping that Obama has been playing 11-dimensional chess on torture, but his recent actions sure look more like just a wish to put it behind us. You can’t really do that, as an individual or a nation. You have to ‘fess up to wrongdoing, genuinely regret, and atone.
We have been largely marking time for 6 years on climate change. Obama’s done a little, but not nearly enough. My childrens’ and (yet unborn) grandchildrens’ lives will be much, much harsher, because Obama and the Dems fiddled with health care while the planet caught fire.
So yes, millennials have turned away from Obama and the Democrats. He offered hope, but didn’t come through, and they have lost hope, in him, in the Democrats, and in politics.
geg6
@schrodinger’s cat:
Engineering students are the whiniest, creepiest, most entitled assholes that ever walked the earth. I seriously cannot stand them. Which is not good, as the most popular major on my campus is engineering. But I simply cannot stand them. Probably explains why I’m not enamored of engineers in general. But that might also be because I see almost as much shitty work by them as I do meteorologists. Who are also giant assholes.
tam1MI
@catclub: Bill Clinton spent a good deal of his last 2 years in office being impeached.
Ruckus
@Davis X. Machina:
I used to think that democrats had defined the problem and therefore could work on it. I’m not sure that most of the democratic politicians remember those definitions. Once again though, even forgetting them is better than trying to blow them up. At least they may be able to be reminded and redirected.
@Dalunay:
And as bad as this sounds, what’s the alternative? Walk away? Yes there has to be something to walk to but the question we should be asking is “What will make things better?” Walking away or walking in the wrong direction won’t do it. We have in so many ways been sold an instant culture that we expect everything to be easy and right now. There is even a company that sells Easy Buttons. Works fine when discussing music listening or office products, not so much when discussing politics, which almost all interactions among people really is.
Mantooth
So your contention is that these young people reverted back to their true, racist ways? Why did they ever support the president in the first place?
All this “white people are the worst” talk would resonate more if this wasn’t one of the whitest sites on the Internet. You have your own pet calendar, for christ’s sake. That’s the whitest thing ever. You ran off ABL. The next POC to show up at a BJ meetup will be the first.
John N
I think people are seriously underselling the effect of the population being exposed to relentless propaganda from all major media outlets on a daily basis. Like, we talk about how the media is biased and corporate, but then never take the next step of realizing that propaganda exists because it is effective, and it is extremely effective here, which is why so many billions of dollars have been expended on producing it. Racist, sexist, biased media is influencing people’s thinking. Obviously, I’m not saying that without this influence, there wouldn’t be racism, because that’s not true. But there are a lot of mushy people who just kind of exist, and aren’t very philosophical in their thinking, and aren’t very committed to hashing out political positions for themselves, and these are the people who are being pushed into racist thinking that, if exposed to other types of thinking or forced to confront their own reasoning, may be influenced in other directions.
tazj
I’m sorry, it’s one thing to be disappointed but some complaints sound absolutely pathetic. Yes, the climate’s going to hell because of what Obama and the Democrat’s did in the last six years.
The only people who feel the ACA isn’t a big deal are those who’ve been fortunate enough to have never had a serious health problem and/or never lacked access to healthcare.
eemom
@tazj:
That.
@Dalunay:
Not hard to see where your kids learned to be entitled assholes.
Visceral
Class insecurity will always trump social conscience for white people, and for straight, white, nominally Christian males in particular. Women and minorities don’t have this problem because for them, self-interest and progress are the same thing. Only SWMs are faced with the perceived choice: “Take care of me or take care of other people?” They perceive this choice because there’s no clear overlap between advancing the specific interests of women and minorities and advancing the general interests of “Americans” or “working people” (or any other formula that implicitly includes SWMs) … in part because many of us see no need for any such connection to exist: SWMs are just gonna have to deal with progress because absolutely it’s not for them.
Goblue72
@Dalunay: Clearly your white privileged ass doesn’t need healthcare otherwise your white privileged ass would have a clue.
I hope your kids wind up poor and homeless so we can see how you feel about the ACA then.
Goblue72
@tazj: Exactly. My MIL is alive because of the ACA.
Course, she’s Asian – and racial group in that poll that understands what Obama accomplished.
I really hate white people.
DTOzone
@Spinwheel: @Dalunay:
So basically white millennials like your kids are Reagan Democrats- only concerning about whatever pet issues they obsess with,
What if Obama had to let torture go in order to get healthcare to 12 million people? Let’s say that was what happened. (I don’t think it did, but lets say so), is that a fair tradeoff? Is it more important to help millions of people with a life-saving need than to “atone” for sins of the past?
Tell your kids the truth. Yes, you can do put it all behind us. Obama doesn’t get to “atone”, America as a nation must to do it, and Americans approve of torture. How would they feel if Obama prosecuted torturers and the next president pardoned them? Which is what I feel out would happen? Or if the DOJ seeks prosecutions but grand juries don’t indict or juries don’t convict?
I think your kids problem is less about Obama and more about the system. They didn’t get everything they wanted. Typical white millennial.
I speak as one.
DTOzone
@Violet:
There are plenty of these people, they just don’t win elections