Jeb Bush is exploring a run in 2016, and if the election comes down to Bush v. Clinton, Americans hereby surrender the right to make fun of British royalty forever.
Enough is Enough
This post is in: Election 2016, I Can No Longer Rationally Discuss The Clinton Campaign, Republican Crime Syndicate - aka the Bush Admin.
Ben Cisco
If we get another Bush we’ll be surrendering a hell of a lot more than that.
KG
I’m going to have to put serious thought into expatriating if this does come to pass. some place tropical, where I can drive a muscle car, ride a motorcycle, and enjoy good cigars and beer on a beach.
trollhattan
I’d swallow my distaste so long as the outcome is the same as the last Clinton v. Bush election. But still….
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
At least William and Kate do charity work and travel around doing PR for Great Britain. They’re not actually put in charge of the government.
rlrr
There’s an old saying in Tennessee – I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee – that says, fool me once, shame on – shame on you. Fool me – can’t get fooled again.
— Jeb’s brother
rlrr
Since WWII, the Republicans have never won the Presidency without a Bush or Nixon on the ticket…
trollhattan
@KG:
Vanuatu should be above water for awhile yet. Jeb! would hasten its inundation, however.
Yatsuno
@KG: You only need proof of $1300 a month income to move to Costa Rica. Plus universal health care, excellent climate, and it’s where our own Valdiva is from.
beltane
I’m fairly sure that the past 15 years have been an effective surrender of our right to make fun of anyone, anywhere, living at any time.
MattF
Oh, well. My advice for Jeb! is that if a certain Mr. Cheney comes along suggesting that he should help choose the VP candidate… DON’T.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I would love to see Jebbie humiliated in the primary. I would like the old man– who put as much poison in our politics as anyone this side of Newt Gingrich– to live to see it. I would like Bar and her Beautiful Mind to hear people talking about the Bush name being a curse in politics. And it’s not all guilt by association, Jebbie deserves to have his face rubbed in it for Terri Schiavo alone, and I’m sure Betty and other Floridians can give us some other reasons.
El Caganer
Didn’t Santayana write that those who cannot remember the past are condemned to watch re-runs?
trollhattan
@rlrr:
Continuing:
Meet the new boss
Sure plays a mean
Aaagh, bats!
cahuenga
The very reason for the American Revolution has been rebuilt.
geg6
@Yatsuno:
Seriously, I’m outta here if this buffoon becomes president. This country is already a place I don’t want to be any more or even be a citizen of any more. But that would just be the last straw. I may just have to kill myself rather than live through another Bush. And I’m not really kidding at all.
balconesfault
I’m not a huge fan of Hillary – but I’ll object to the Bush-Clinton comparison.
The Bush’s are dynastic – 3rd generation in politics, Father and Son Presidential tandem. All the Bush sons reek of the “Lucky Gene Club” – Jeb may or may not have had success in politics independent of his lineage, but I don’t think anyone believes that GW would have ever won a race for dogcatcher had he not come from the “right” family.
Billary are different. Hillary came from some money but certainly not from any political lineage. And she had quite a resume on her own before she ever met Bill, as well as piling up some notable accomplishments while they were married but before Bill became a household name who could have paved her way.
Could she have become a Senator had she never met Bill? Yeah – I think so. And she might have had her own successes in politics much earlier had she not spent a big chunk of her life supporting Bill’s ambitions.
El Caganer
@beltane: Are you trying to say that America isn’t the most awesomest nation EVAH?
Jerzy Russian
Isn’t “Jeb Bush” a bit redundant, since Jeb is short for “John Ellis Bush”?
I wish he would run so I can vote against him.
beltane
One good thing about a Bush/Clinton re-match (I was about to say Bush/Clinton ticket) is that it would cause the Villagers to perish en mass due to the effects of a boner lasting more than eight hours. It’s would be more like a many months’ long boner for them.
Cacti
Wouldn’t Jeb be the first Bush you didn’t vote for, JC?
:-P
Betty Cracker
If the Dems settle on Hillary (which I have deep reservations about but believe will probably happen), better a Hillary vs. Jeb race than Hillary vs. some Republican who can pass himself off as a fresh face. Dynasty vs Dynasty is distasteful to me too, but the comparisons between the two are all in our favor.
@balconesfault: Fair points.
cahuenga
@balconesfault:
The point is corporate lords and political royalty not only exist here, they thrive. America has lost itself..
Cacti
Really?
What political chops have you ever seen from Hillary that would make you believe she could win something besides a legacy seat in one of the bluest states?
Amir Khalid
@Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):
The Royal Family are, so I’ve read, the kind of Tories whom Maggie Thatcher scorned as “Wets” — falling to the left of her own rigorous conservatism, and lacking her disdain for the ordinary people she, Maggie T, worked so hard to rise above.
trollhattan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Early 2005 in my purportedly blue slice of California “Jeb!” bumper stickers began appearing. Even as Iraq was cratering into an endless shitstorm and wages stalled, we had a cohort openly embracing…can’t call it aristocracy (“The Aristocrats!”) but something not unlike monarchy.
I envisioned their campaign slogan thus: Jeb! ’08–Finally, The Smart One”
beltane
@Betty Cracker: I’d rather a “fresh face” like Ted Cruz than Jeb Bush, who can pass himself off as a sane being more in line with his father than his brother. Americans have terribly short memories and a dynasty by dynasty comparison might not help us out as much as we’d like.
Cacti
@Betty Cracker:
Brian Sandoval of Nevada is the GOPer that I could see beating Hillary in 2016.
If it’s Hillary vs. Jeb, Mitt, or Christie, I think she beats all of them like a drum.
trollhattan
@Jerzy Russian:
That makes him Double-Bush I guess. Yay.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
HEre’s some schaden for your freude :
Jebbie’s golf partners donors at Whiter Shade of Pale Country Club apparently will send Li’l Marco back to the kiddie table.
I think he’s the Republican Evan Bayh, fated to live forever, or at least a couple of cycles, on the “VP short list”
Roger Moore
@cahuenga:
If having political dynasties is a sign that America has lost itself, then it never found itself in the first place, since they’ve existed in the USA since the very beginning.
Betty Cracker
@beltane: Maybe. But Jeb will be forced to defend his brother’s disastrous presidency at every turn. I don’t think many people who aren’t already Republicans remember the Bush II era fondly.
The Dangerman
Unless Big Money comes in massively for Jeb (i.e., the fix is in), he has no chance at being the nominee.
Pococurante
By today’s GOP standards Jeb is a hyper-reasonable moderate.
MattF
One thing to watch out for now is the revival of Obsessive Clinton Disorder among the Villagers. Hillary got some good press while she was SecState, but I predict that all that will fade away into an alternative past that sophisticated political pundits don’t discuss any more. And sooner rather than later.
kindness
Feel the Hillary love.
OK, that was snark but serious on what others seem to be saying. My 2 cents: Hillary isn’t my favorite but is a logarithmic scale better than ANY Republican toying with the idea of becoming POTUS. If Hillary runs and wins the nomination I will happily vote for her over any R.
beltane
@Betty Cracker: I hope you’re right. There is one thing I’ll never get out of my head though, and that is an interview with a voter in the 2000 Republican primary in SC who explained that he has voted for Bush II because “he was a really good president the last time.”
Shakezula
Is Chelsea running?
Trentrunner
Please, Jeb, run. Run.
balconesfault
@Cacti: What political chops have you ever seen from Hillary that would make you believe she could win something besides a legacy seat in one of the bluest states?
First off, the woman is very smart, and from an early age, was very ambitious. Her college commencement speech at Wellesley actually got mention in Life Magazine and on national TV, and she got her law degree at Yale. Had she not met Bill at Yale, and instead had gone back to Chicago and met and married someone who would have been dedicated to supporting her political career (instead of vice versa) I don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine a political career that could have made her Illinois first female Senator instead of the mediocre Carol Moseley Braun.
trollhattan
@kindness:
Hillary did well enough at State to bring me around on her ability to handle a tough job, something I was unconvinced of before.
My concern is whether she can run a winning campaign. We can NOT afford a Republican win and given her horrible campaign in ’08 I want some damn evidence she 1. learned from the experience and 2. will not bring back the Old Team.
KG
@Shakezula: wouldn’t the nightmare scenario have been if George P Bush and Chelsea got married, uniting the two houses?
balconesfault
People need reminding, everytime the word “moderate” is used for Jeb … that Jeb was one of the leaders of the PNAC cabal back in the 90’s, signing onto both their “Rebuilding Americas Defenses” manifesto as well as the letter to Bill Clinton pushing him to do something about Saddam.
For all people will bemoan Hillary’s interventionist tendencies – and they’re certainly a lot stronger than makes me happy – Jeb would be all in on the war on Iran in a New York second.
rlrr
I seem to remember people talking about Hillary Clinton being the inevitable nominee around this time back in 2006. How’d that work out?
beltane
@KG: Their spawn could have united the warring houses of York and Lancaster.
Roger Moore
@KG:
Sorry, but you’re never going to get the Kwisatz Haderach by crossing into the Bushes.
trollhattan
@balconesfault:
Let’s keep dragging in the Bush legacy with the energy extraction bidnez as well. We already know their adroitness at repackaging is unmatched.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@kindness: I think of myself as an open-minded skeptic where HRC is concerned, and as a pragmatist I don’t see a very deep bench on our side. I do think she needs to step up her game both on the superficial “charisma” side of the plate and in terms of policy. She was caught flat-footed on some not very challenging questions when her most recent book came out, and I have a hard time imagining her answer to the “Why do you want to be President?” question. And I think the Clinton camp overestimates the depth of her support.
CONGRATULATIONS!
1. Yes, good point.
2. If they keep the gibbering elder brother away from any cameras or microphones, Jeb wins this one. They’re pretty evenly matched (no and I mean ZERO charisma, relatives who half of America hates more than hell itself) but he has Money backing him.
3. Oh yeah, he speaks fluent Spanish.
trollhattan
@beltane:
I could just see them posed on the Dehydrated Meat Throne (“sponsored by SlimJims”) ready to make decrees and sentence people and shit.
dance around in your bones
Re: Jeb – No, Nyet, Nee, La, Voch, Deyil, Ez, Nie, Ne, NO, Bù, Nej, Nee, Ei, Non, Ara, Nein, Ohee, Lo, Nahi, Nem, Tidak, Ni, Nai, Aniyo, Ma, Na, Não, Nu, Niet, Hapana, Nej, ILLAI, Mai, Không, Nid oes, Illa – in other words, NO Jeb Bush! NO more Bush! We have had enough Arbustos to last a a century or a millennium.
(All versions of NO! stolen shamelessly from this website)
trollhattan
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Aren’t his kids the ones GHWB referred to as “the little brown ones”?
Hungry Joe
@The Dangerman: Re Big Money for Jeb: In the (very) early days of the 2000 election I was vaguely aware of the fact that there was a Bush Jr. and that he was governor of Texas. Then I read that he was far in the lead in campaign fundraising, and I knew that the fix was in.
rikyrah
“Witness 40”: Exposing A Fraud In Ferguson
TSG probe unmasks grand jury witness who spun fabricated tale
12/16 UPDATE: Following the publication of this story, Sandra McElroy acknowledged to TSG that she is “Witness 40.” Voicing concerns for her minor children, McElroy said that she directed them to delete their Facebook accounts, adding that she has done the same. “After I speak with the prosecutor, attorney, and Police if they say its alright I will call you,” she said. McElroy subsequently asked to have an off-the-record conversation, a request to which a TSG reporter agreed.
DECEMBER 15–The grand jury witness who testified that she saw Michael Brown pummel a cop before charging at him “like a football player, head down,” is a troubled, bipolar Missouri woman with a criminal past who has a history of making racist remarks and once insinuated herself into another high-profile St. Louis criminal case with claims that police eventually dismissed as a “complete fabrication,” The Smoking Gun has learned.
In interviews with police, FBI agents, and federal and state prosecutors–as well as during two separate appearances before the grand jury that ultimately declined to indict Officer Darren Wilson–the purported eyewitness delivered a preposterous and perjurious account of the fatal encounter in Ferguson
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/unmasking-Ferguson-witness-40-496236
CONGRATULATIONS!
@trollhattan: Sí.
Him or his rotten spouse, can’t remember which, hate ’em both.
satby
@Yatsuno: Hey, don’t be giving away my secret safe place ;)
In all seriousness, I’ve been toying with this idea for a couple of years, as much so I can enjoy a decent standard of living on SS without having to work till I’m 80 as in disgust with the worsening political situation in this country. I was a hippie during Viet Nam, and I remember receiving a lot of vitriol for protesting that war (and in general) but this has felt meaner, more ignorant, and all around worse for years. And my hide is thicker, so I’m pretty sure it’s not my fee-fees.
Iowa Old Lady
If Jeb chooses Liz Cheney as his VP candidate, they can just recycle the old Bush/Cheney bumper stickers.
Kryptik, A Man Without a Country
You have to wonder, with shirts like these just why, oh why, people seem to have it in their head that the police don’t care about the community they serve. I mean, it’s just boggling, isn’t it?
Bob In Portland
I feel sorry for my sister. Jeb privatized her state job six months before she could retire. But my sister is Tea Party-esque and hates Hillary. Which flavor of fascism will she vote for?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Iowa Old Lady: Until I saw the Idiot Princeling in action, I always thought MoDo was overstating the case when she said the Bushes divide the world in to two classes of people: The Family, and the Help. I suspect the Bushes think the Cheneys are below-stairs sort who have gotten quite above their station, and Dick Jr may be the most bumptious and pushful of the lot. Most uncouth.
Elizabelle
@Yatsuno:
Seriously, there’s a business opportunity in helping American citizens move abroad. I feel the same as geg and some others.
Costa Rica’s one possibility. What are the others?
Violet
Barbara was right the first time. Too many Bushes already. Time for some other families to get in the game.
Bobby Thomson
@Roger Moore: Oh, yeah?
dmsilev
@Violet: There must be some descendants of John and John Quincy Adams around. They’re rested, they’re ready!
Booger
@KG: And thus was spawned House Harkonnen…
Amir Khalid
I’m not convinced that many people really want to see President JEB! I’m not even convinced that Jeb really wants to be President JEB! I suspect people are trying to talk him into running, because they reckon the other probable candidates all suck. And while he’d rather not run, he’s unwilling to declare himself out of the race in case those trying to persuade him are right.
Bob In Portland
@balconesfault: He’s good at dismantling safety nets and pension funds. After he left office as governor of FLA in 2007 he worked selling worthless paper for Lehman Brothers, old Bush family friends. Lots of pension plans for state and local employees in Florida were “disadvantaged” by the turndown in 2008.
However, as we know, he, like other Bushes, seems to personally thrive in business when others lose their shirts. Must have learned the art of parachuting from Pops.
Tree With Water
I may well be mistaken, but when the Schiavo story gains currency I can’t see many people supporting Bush. Even the most rocked-ribbed American fascist will understand both its portent, and the man that tread on the primacy of the family unit. It’s too primal a story to be mistaken for anything else, and all too revealing of the man.
Then again, on election night 1980 I bet money that Ronald Reagan would be a one term president– which he might have been had he not been shot, which triggered a rally ’round the office & man reaction, which in turn was carefully cultivated by the republican party. Same phenomenon-on-steroids occurred in the aftermath of 9/11, too.
Barry
@Ben Cisco: “If we get another Bush we’ll be surrendering a hell of a lot more than that.”
Doing Bush-Clinton-Bush-(Obama)-Clinton is bad enough, but doing Bush-Clinton-Bush-(Obama)-Bush would be a sign that the USA has jumped the shark.
raven
If Hillary gets elected she will kill the first thing that fucking moves just to prove she will. Take it to the bank.
mdblanche
@Roger Moore: Could you imagine what would have happened if in 1932 we had elected the rich political dynast with the famous last name over the self-made man of modest upbringing?
rlrr
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Oh yeah, he speaks fluent Spanish.
He’ll alienate his base everytime he utters a word in Spanish
Ilya
@balconesfault: Seriously, you think Hillary Clinton could have become senator from NY, a state in which she had no significant roots, without Bill behind her?
Why are so many liberals being purposefully obtuse about this? Liz Cheney has been in policy circles for many years and even ran for senator from Wyoming, but if she ran for President I’m sure every Democrat out there would be mocking the Republicans for dynasty rule.
Barry
@Bob In Portland: “I feel sorry for my sister. Jeb privatized her state job six months before she could retire. But my sister is Tea Party-esque and hates Hillary. Which flavor of fascism will she vote for?”
You shouldn’t. Anybody that stupid and evil deserves what she gets. If she had been able to retire (presumably with a pension and benefits), she’d use that free time to b*tch endlessly about ‘bloated government’ and the ‘takers’ (if you know what I mean).
Hopefully, she’ll end up working a rotating schedule at WalMart.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@raven: Agreed. Thatcher 1982, same problems going in and same solution. I’d go so far as to say “she has to”, because otherwise she is just flat-out not going to be taken seriously by most of our Great Republic.
gogol's wife
THE DAMAGE GEORGE W BUSH DID TO THIS COUNTRY IS INCALCULABLE AND IRREMEDIABLE.
KG
@Elizabelle: depends on what you’re looking for. Belize is also apparently a good one. if you’re looking less tropical, I’ve heard good things about Japan and Korea (specifically Seoul). They speak something that resembles English in Australia too.
Doug r
@trollhattan: yeah that whole Bush family are “Aristocrats “, aren’t they?
Ilya
@mdblanche: A hundred thousand Japanese were thrown into internment camps? Or are you arguing that without Roosevelt, the combined powers of the US, UK, and USSR would have been unable to defeat Germany?
Bill
Jeb can’t get the nomination.
Immigration will kill him with the “base.”
J.D. Rhoades
There will be some fun in watching the Rethuglicans rehashing every Clinton scandal, while bitterly complaining that every reference to the very real and much more damaging failings of Jeb’s Brother is “living in the past.”
trollhattan
@Tree With Water: Through September 10, 2001, I referred to him as “One-term.”
“Now that we’re done cuttin’ taxes and givin’ tax cuts, let’s skin us some Social Security.”
Yeah, that’ll play in Peoria. But then, something else happened, releasing the Kraken-Cheney from its cold, very cold storage.
srv
@Barry: Happy Days had six more seasons after The Fonz jumped the shark.
Alex S.
Booo!!! Jeb is young enough to wait another 4 years to follow Hillary, so that we will have Bush-Clinton-Bush-Obama-Clinton-Bush. Then Chelsea can run, and then the brown Bush.
Yatsuno
@Amir Khalid: None of that will happen unless Babs gave the green light. She runs everything in that family & she’s the one who insisted Dubya go first. So if she finally agreed to allow it, JEB! will run. I think he’s making a big mistake here but hey I’d rather he fail & be out.
@CONGRATULATIONS!: It was Babs. GHWB, for all his faults, didn’t seem to share the overt racism of his spouse.
beltane
@KG: I am nearly done with the process of obtaining dual-citizenship to Schengenland for my children. Our roots here are not deep and they deserve to have options.
Hal
The problem for Jeb is primary voters. They are never going to go for someone like him, especially if he supports comprehensive immigration reform. Jeb is too liberal for today’s Republican party. Plus, third Bush President in as many decades? No thanks. The primaries should be interesting though.
kindness
@Ilya: You are comparing the accomplishments and merits of Liz Cheney v. Hillary Clinton? And you are suggesting that running for the Senate in Wyoming (and not winning the primary) is the same as winning the Senate in NY?
Huh? Really?
mdblanche
@Ilya: What makes you think that after four more years of Hoovernomics whoever was elected in 1936 would have been on the same side as the UK and the USSR?
Suffern ACE
@MattF: Yeah. The moderate position will be “She’s not a bitch. She’s just pushy.”
Yatsuno
@KG: There are enough English speakers in Germany to make life quite livable. Plus German isn’t that far off from English in a lot of respects so it’s not too difficult to pick up as necessary. Just watch the really long words.
deep
Someone needs to write a sci-fi novel set 3000 years in the future where the God-Emperor of Amurukkaa is named CLINTONBUSH and is a hybrid half male-female all-race cyborg.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Hal: Let’s run that through the time travel machine:
All of these things were true in 2012. Remind me who the candidate was again?
beltane
@mdblanche: Large segments of the American population were entirely sympathetic towards Germany up until Pearl Harbor. Racism and red bashing have always been selling points in the eyes of many (most?) Americans. We really lucked out with FDR.
trollhattan
@kindness:
Liz Cheney is the fifth Kardashian, banished for not having a booty. Her daily accomplishment is putting on her shoes correctly (am willing to grant her that much).
mdblanche
@Yatsuno: Have Babs and Jessica Walter ever been seen in the same place at the same time?
beltane
@CONGRATULATIONS!: Though they might raise a stink in Iowa and New Hampshire, the Republican base will always dutifully lap up whatever shit sandwich is served to them. And if they don’t lap it up with enough enthusiasm, the party apparatus will rig enough caucuses to obtain the desired result.
Tree With Water
@Suffern ACE: I seem to recall the fear of a working class revolution was Hoover’s impetus to unleash Douglas MacArthur and the U.S. Army on the bonus marchers (recall the marchers were ex-soldiers).
Violet
@Amir Khalid: No way. He was supposed to run before and Shrub jumped the queue. He wants to be president. He thinks he can fix the mess dumb brother made of the family name.
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
@Hal:
If the Republican money guys want Jeb to be the nominee, Republicans are getting Jeb whether they like it or not.
I’ll be curious to see who the crazy millionaires back on the way to the inevitable, though.
the Conster
@beltane:
Before my father died we had a long discussion about things he learned/heard during his stint in WWII. When the subject of the Jews came up as a reason to be fighting Germany, he was reluctant but felt it necessary to share that the overwhelming sentiment of the men he was surrounded by was all basically “who cares? Why aren’t they here with us fighting?”
Mike J
@Ilya:
Without Lend-Lease, absolutely. The UK and Russia would have both fallen. The Republicans were vehemently isolationist, and were still upset about aid and debts from WWI.
JPL
Christie and Bush will split the votes, so the door is open for Rand Paul to win the Republican primary. Since the powers that be know this, expect Paul to be attacked by all.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Elizabelle: No love for Canada in this thread? It’s not all tundra. :-)
Vancouver is very nice, but ya gotta worry about Mt. Hood and tsunamis and so forth. Nova Scotia is nice as well.
Cheers,
Scott.
(Who is willing to wait the bad guys out and won’t be leaving for a while…)
Violet
@Yatsuno:
Heard on the TV this morning that Babs has changed her tune from the “let some different families run” line she gave a year ago. So Jeb! has the green light.
mdblanche
@CONGRATULATIONS!: But Romney didn’t support comprehensive immigration reform. He was the self-deportations guy who used immigration as a cudgel to establish his conservative bonafides over a bunch of loons who had left that as his only opening. Rick Perry’s collapse was at least as much over having to defend the less-than-hardline position on immigration he’d had for running in Texas as it was about “oops.”
raven
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: What about Saint-Louis-du-Ha!-Ha! ?
SRW1
Somewhere the Mittster is sniffing into his hanky. Ann is forever gonna be unfulfilled. Sigh.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
to say nothing of the world
Roberts and Alito are going to be infecting this country for years. IANAL but I have read that Roberts in particular has a flair for putting Easter eggs in his rulings that will serve future corporatist theocrats as precedents, kind of like how an offhand remark by a nineteenth century justice that corporations are people and Buckley v Valeo decided money is speech (still boggles my non-lawyer’s mind, so some people have more than others?), which in turn gave us the magic that is Citizens United. I know the Dem muckety-mucks– Clinton’s, Obama’s, Schumer’s and everyone else’s– spend millions analyzing polls to figure out which issues to emphasize, and maybe the USSC is too remote and abstract for people to grasp, but I would like to see the Dems try it. Maybe HRC can test it out as a targeted message with engaged Dems. I find the lack of interest in this issue bewildering and frightening.
Yatsuno
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Only thing is Canada tightened their immigration rules A LOT under the Harper interregnum. It used to be fairly simple for an American to get a Canadian work permit. Now it’s a nightmare. I have a friend going through that process. It’s been a full time job for him.
trollhattan
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
Maybe Mt. Baker? It was last active in the ’70s and is right across the border.
I could definitely see hiding out in Victoria. Maybe my favorite city for just walking around.
Ilya
@mdblanche: @Mike J: You could just as easily argue that Roosevelt didn’t go far enough, and failed the Jewish people by not accepting more immigrants and not bombing the train tracks to concentration camps. See, historical what-ifs are easy!
balconesfault
@Ilya: Seriously, you think Hillary Clinton could have become senator from NY, a state in which she had no significant roots, without Bill behind her?
Nope. But I think she likely would have forged a more robust political career somewhere built on her own accomplishments – and it could have been in NY, or could have been (as I posited elsewhere) in Illinois. But I see it wholly reasonable to speculate on a career where in the late 70’s she began building her own political resume, rather than dedicating herself to supporting that of her spouse.
Why are so many liberals being purposefully obtuse about this? Liz Cheney has been in policy circles for many years and even ran for senator from Wyoming, but if she ran for President I’m sure every Democrat out there would be mocking the Republicans for dynasty rule.
Again – Liz Cheney had her career from an early age paved by her dad – a stint in the State Department and US AID after coming out of Colorado College, which is hardly a jumping off point for entry into the Federal Bureaucracy at the level she started (yes, Ken Salazar went to Colorado College, but then went directly to law school before getting into politics).
Do you think anyone would be listening to Liz Cheney about anything if she weren’t sitting next to her dad? Outside of Newsmax, no.
Do you think that Hillary would have forged a career where she’d be a very prominent public figure even if she’d never met Bill? Given what she’d done prior to meeting him, I’d say yes.
beltane
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Gore tried running on the Supreme Court message. It wasn’t quite good enough. If I were to drive to my local supermarket and ask 10 random people about the role of the Supreme Court I would probably get 8 blank stares, a fuzzy, incoherent answer from a smart person, and a rant about guns from a teabagger.
Linnaeus
Since I don’t have either the means or the connections to leave the United States (even if I wanted to), I guess I’ll just need to do my part to ensure that Jeb doesn’t become president, should he run.
Ilya
@kindness: You’re right, it’s an unfair comparison – on any given issue, I’m pretty sure I know Liz Cheney’s position. Not sure I know what any of Hillary’s positions are.
Jeb Bush was governor of FL. Sure, he probably only got elected because of the family name, BUT Florida is actually a fairly purple state when it comes to governorships, and he did well with historically non-Republican demographics. Also, as a governor, he had to actually do things, even if a lot of those things were ill-advised from our liberal point of view. Hillary won the country’s bluest senate seat, doing absolutely nothing to grow the Democratic base. Her term as senator was largely unremarkable.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@balconesfault: Liz Cheney is a smarter, meaner and perhaps less entitled version of Luke Russert.
@beltane: Yeah. /sigh/
Violet
@balconesfault: You might be right about Hillary but it doesn’t matter. What does matter is that she is married to a former President. Her Senate seat win was easy–everyone else got out of the way when she said she was running. Why did they do that? If she’d been Jane Smith instead of Hillary Clinton, it wouldn’t have happened. Especially since she had no roots in New York. Her win was widely seen as a win for nepotism and it didn’t test her political abilities much.
What Hillary might have done had she married someone else or not married at all is irrelevant. What matters going forward is how she’ll run her campaign and can she win. That’s all I care about. I want a Democrat as the next President.
SiubhanDuinne
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
It was GHWB, not Barbara. He then spent the next few days frantically defending it.
http://articles.latimes.com/1988-08-17/news/mn-655_1_pride
jonas
The fact that he thinks the Bush name still has any cache shows how out of touch he is. That said, in 2012, I seriously underestimated the ability of a candidate to simply buy the primary. Gingrich and Santorum had their sugar daddies, but in the end, Romney proved to be a cash juggernaut that just steamrolled right over them. I think it will be the same story this time around as well — the GOP voter base will rally around someone like Ben Carson or Mike Huckabee, but the money will all go flowing to Jeb (or maybe Walker or Christie), and they’ll end up with the “moderate” guy they all hate. But they hate Hillary Clinton more, so, just like hatred of Obama got even fundamentalist Christians to rally around a (*shudder*) Mormon, they’ll fall in line. Just like they always do.
Roger Moore
@dmsilev:
Apparently, one of the descendants of Benjamin Harrison (and thus William Henry Harrison) married a descendant of James Garfield and it sounds as if they have living descendants today. They’d be the perfect choice!
bemused
I was half listening to mpr while on an errand, not paying much attention because it was Jeb Bush speaking. He said he really loved his brother GW and first thing pops in my head is the tv ad with woman in a hideous bridesmaid dress for her sister’s wedding. She is on the phone with someone who asks how she likes her bridesmaid’s dress and she replies, “Well, I really love my sister.
Mike J
@jonas:
Cachet. I’m sure it was just a typo, but years of interviews of soldiers looking for what they called “weapons cachets” has set me on edge about the difference between the two.
Betty Cracker
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Jeb Bush is Michael Corleone in an alternate universe in which Fredo became the Godfather and predictably fucked everything up. Hell yes, he wants to be president.
balconesfault
@Violet
Hey – I agree completely. I do think Hillary has a ways to go to demonstrate that she can run an effective Presidential campaign after that turd she paid Mark Penn to lay for her in 2008.
I am not arguing that Hillary is the best Dem to run for President, or that she’ll be a particularly wonderful President, or even if she’d have won the NY Senate Race in 2000 if she’d not been Bill’s wife.
I’m arguing that she is a different creature than the Bush brood (or the Cheney’s).
And I will flip the hypothetical around … and speculate that had she spent the 70’s and 80’s working on her own political career in tandem with Bill’s, instead of giving up her personal aspirations in order to support his … Bill would likely have never been elected President.
Heliopause
I’d be satisfied with simply ignoring them. That toothy Windsor prince. His perpetually grinning twig of a wife. Their fat little hellspawn. The entire extended cast of inbred Downton Abbey rejects. I’d happily leave them in peace to their pointless existences if I just never had to look at them again.
Violet
@jonas: I think you’re right. The money guys and Republican establishment have said they don’t want the same clown car primary season they’ve had the last two go-rounds. They are limiting the number of debates and they’ll only be on “friendly” networks–I guess that means Fox. They also don’t want “stupid” candidates. I think they’ll do everything they can to get rid of the single-sugard-daddy candidates and wacko teabagger candidates.
That being said, they will not be able to shut up people like Rand Paul and Ted Cruz. Those guys have followers and they will not be silenced. I think any attempt to shut them up may backfire and cause more problems. The primary season could be interesting.
srv
The problem with Costa Rica is there are probably already a lot of Republican/TP folks down there.
Spain/Italy/Ireland are probably pretty cheap now to live in, but not that easy to get into. NZ used to be $150K, but 35 or under.
Anyone know about Iceland? All the Euros seem to love the place.
Emerald
I’m starting to pleasantly dream about a United Pacific States, to include California, Oregon, Washington and Hawaii. (We could invite Alaska to join in, but I’d bet they’d say no and be independent.)
We wouldn’t have to have another civil war to do it, just a new Constitutional Convention, which the wingers want anyway.
Great opportunity. We’d be a world economic power overnight. And we’d be deep blue.
Much more convenient than becoming an expat somewhere.
Lurking Canadian
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’m pretty sure Rubio’s goose was cooked the moment Ted Cruz’s election turned him into “no, the OTHER Cuban Senator”.
Tree With Water
@Heliopause: Ah, you’re being way too hard on them. They’re just people born into a grift of historical proportions (the sound you might hear is my Irish great-grandmother spinning in her grave).
Violet
@balconesfault: It’s really hard to say, though. Jeb Bush might have been a good politician on his own, if he weren’t a Bush. If he’d had to work his way up it might have changed who he was. Hell, he might have been a Democrat. All that speculation is irrelevant.
Sure, Hillary did some impressive things in college and got into Yale law school. Good for her. Then she chose to support her husband’s aspirations. Also, good for her, since that was her choice. But once she did, and once Bill’s political dreams were realized, it is simply impossible to separate her individual potential pre-Bill from her life experience and connections.
So it doesn’t matter. All I care about is can she run a good campaign and can she win.
While we’re talking legacies and dynasties, I wouldn’t be upset at all if Michelle Obama decides to run for political office. Talk about talented and smart.
Violet
@SiubhanDuinne: Good Lord, that article. Some select quotes:
Nothing has changed.
50% Hispanic? Seriously?
John O
That matchup guarantees at least one third party vote on principle, and I’ll bet I’m not alone. And that could get interesting with the right third party dude/dudette.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Violet: I’m with you, my eyes are on the prize, and if Hillary can bring it, she’ll have my support. I would prefer Warren or Sherrod Brown or fantasy candidate X, but they don’t poll as well, and we’re not electing a president of the blogosphere.
I do find it interesting: Do we have any strong HRC supporters here? I feel like my bloodless ambivalence puts me in the BJ-PUMA column
CONGRATULATIONS!
@srv: Average temperature at the height of the summer: 55 degrees.
NO THANK YOU
ruemara
@Yatsuno: it’s where Randi Rhodes skipped off to, before 2014 elections. She knew people weren’t going to show up and I guess she decided that she’d had enough.
askew
At the least the GOP won’t hand the nomination to Jeb on a silver platter. They are going to make him work for it. On the Dem side, Hillary and her supporters will be happy to know that she is getting a coronation. The only serious candidate who was planning on running against her was Martin O’Malley and he’s delayed any announcement until April but it is pretty much sounding like he’s out. So we are going to have the GOP sucking up all the oxygen until summer of 2016 because Hillary will be running unopposed.
I’ll place money that she loses to Jeb in the general. She is a bad politician and her political skills have gotten worse since 2006. And she isn’t going to get any debate prep or practice and even her close advisors have no idea what she is planning on running on. That’s inspiring. She’s been waiting for this moment since summer of 2008 and she still doesn’t know why she’s running outside of my turn.
Mike J
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Anne Laurie is the closest to that description around here, I think.
eemom
@Betty Cracker:
Well put, and exactly right.
trollhattan
@Mike J:
No, no, it’s “weapons sachet.” Makes them smell nice, plus the dogs won’t sniff them in your car trunk.
Violet
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’m not a strong Hillary supporter but I think she’s better than some candidates. I guess I’m kind of neutral.
askew
@balconesfault: @Cacti:
She has shown nothing in her mediocre career that leaves me to believe that she would have been a successful politician without riding her much more talented husband’s coattails. Her time as First Lady was marked by defeat, scandal and disorganization. Her career pre-First Lady was average at best. She was a do-nothing Senator with no accomplishments to her name and her time at State was spent “repairing relationships” while Obama and Biden did the heavy lifting. She’s unremarkable on every level. The idea that she’d be a star without Bill is laughable.
KG
@Yatsuno: my mom’s side of the family is Cuban, and while I don’t speak it well (at all), I can understand Spanish if I focus, so I’m fairly confident that I could pick up Spanish fairly easily, so that opens up a lot of places for me. And the concept of living on the Mediterranean is kind of appealing
mdblanche
@srv:
The truth about Iceland politically is very, very different than the myth.
KG
@mdblanche: sadly, most everything I know about Europe at this point comes from watching Top Gear.
Southern Beale
Having fun trying to think up some Jeb Bush 2016 campaign slogans …. “It’s Time To Try White Guys Again” perhaps or, my favorite, “Third Time’s The Charm.”
mikefromArlington
It’ll be fun watching a Clinton kickin’ a Bush’s ass again.
srv
Rule of Law:
KG
@Southern Beale: “Jeb Bush 2016: The Third Movie In Trilogies is Always the Best… Right?”
askew
Personally, I am looking forward to the Bush opposition dump on what exactly Bill Clinton has been up to or with since 2000. I expect that to hit about a day after the DNC where Hillary gets the nomination. And for those who think no one cares that Bill is a cheating sleaze. Just wait until we have to spent all fall listening to interviews with the women he’s been sleeping with.
rlrr
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Average temperature at the height of the summer: 55 degrees.
Free AC!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@KG: except, of course, with the Godfather… @Betty Cracker:
Violet
@askew: Bill’s not the one running, though. I think it might play out a little differently if it’s the candidate’s spouse being drug through the mud. I know it’s a weird situation because he’s a former president, but there are a lot of women who will be absolutely irate that Hillary is being savaged because of Bill’s private behavior. It might even backfire on the Republicans. We’ll see, I guess.
Botsplainer
In other awesome news, Kansas has an awesome effort on privatization of child support collection services.
http://www.wibw.com/home/localnews/headlines/Kansas-Collects-Lowest-Amount-Of-Child-Support-In-14-Years–285778041.html
MomSense
@srv:
I love Iceland! The countryside is gorgeous and Reykjavik is a wonderful city. I think they have pretty tough standards however as does Norway which is another place I would love to live.
jl
I do not care what their last names are. It is really out of my immediate control whether the US society and political system have become such an oligarchy that you need a ‘brand’ family name to compete electorally.
Whether I support and vote for HRC in the primary depends on what her proposals are, and who is running against her. Her last name, and the fact that Big Dawg will be showing up in political family pics will not be high priority.
And in the general if it is choice between HRC and a GOPer named ___________, it’s gotta be HRC.
And, look on the bright side, her name has a cool acronym, better than anything since FDR and HST, IMHO.
And, look on the bright side, if this country is so debased it has to go with brand family names, then maybe someone will persuade Michelle Obama to run for something.
mdblanche
@Tree With Water: They got where they are today because great*50 grandpa conqured England a thousand or so years back. They stay there because the last time they tried doing away with the monarchy they wound up with a guy who made Ian Paisely seem cheery and tolerant by comparison.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Violet: there were rumors of imminent bimbo eruptions in 2008, and I suppose it’s possible that he’s managed to keep a few flings secret in the internet panopticon age, but my sense is Bubba’s mouth, and his ego, are a greater threat to an HRC campaign than Little Willie.
askew
@Violet:
I think if it wasn’t a pattern with Bill you might be right that Hillary would get sympathy. But, this has been going on since 1992 and some point I think the public starts judging her for staying with the slimebucket. Even if it is just enough to discourage our voters, Jeb wins.
I think Bill’s zipper problem and other ethical lapses won’t be the only thing that does her in. The lack of a primary plus, her age, and Clinton fatigue and lack of anything to run on or for will kill her. The lack of charisma isn’t going to help either.
Neurovore
@Yatsuno:
I was able to become a Canadian citizen at 23, as I found out that I could claim Canadian citizenship through birthright as my mother was born in Canada and lived there until she moved to the US with her parents when she was 14. Now I have dual citizenship with both Canada and the US.
While I have often jokingly thought of moving to Canada, the trouble is that I am currently unemployed and from what I have heard the trouble is, many parts of Canada are cold and much more rural than the US, making it even harder to find a decent job, and if you want to live somewhere that is not cold and nasty and near where you will most likely find work, expect to pay out the nose, since housing costs in the metropolitian areas of a lot of Canadian cities are ridiculous.
I could be wrong, so if somebody cares to enlighten me, feel free to do so.
Anne Laurie
@rlrr:
Only if you’ve flushed John Edwards’ campaign down the memory hole, along with that Chicago Senator What’s-His-Face.
Some people argued Hillary had a strong advantage, but the “inevitable” talk came after Edwards flamed out. And even then, her best poll didn’t give her half the numbers the polls show now.
Roger Moore
@mdblanche:
Strictly speaking it was only great*30 grandpa. And the actual descent is considerably more complicated than that, since there are plenty of collateral lines, etc. Most notably, Henry VII’s primary claim to the throne was by conquest, not by descent./pedant
mai naem mobile
@Elizabelle: i’ve looked into this. The problem for me is language but if you have an okay but not huge income you can go to Belize, Ecuador,Chile, Dominican Republic, and parts of Mexico. There’s also Thailand and India. If you have a more comfortable income theres Portugal, Cyprus, the Baltic states and Dubai. I heard an interview on NPR that did.not make Costa Rica sound all that great.
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
@Roger Moore:
Well, conquest and marriage. Elizabeth of York was generally considered the rightful queen once her brothers were out of the way, which is why Richard III also made a play to marry her.
jonas
@Mike J: touchet
srv
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
There’s a hotsprings in everyone’s back yard.
Plus global warming.
mdblanche
@Roger Moore: I was just going for a round number that sounded high enough. And weren’t all the kings William the Conqueror’s descendants, even if they cut their place in line?
Starfish
It’s not just us.
http://nobushesorclintons.org/
Tree With Water
@mdblanche: But that was then and this is now. Besides, Cromwell wasn’t all bad. Sure, he claimed to commune with God, but he was always conventionally humble about it. The royal grifters back then declared God a member of their immediate family, and insisted everyone on the planet see it that way, too. And now I’ve said that out loud, when my Irish great-grandmother gets through spinning I figure she’ll be paying me a visit, somehow, sometime, and somewhere.
jharp
“if the election comes down to Bush v. Clinton, Americans hereby surrender the right to make fun of British royalty forever”
A bullshit comparison.
Major Major Major Major
@Tree With Water: The British people and other lineages weren’t too keen on him either, if you take into account the whole head-on-a-stick thing.
AxelFoley
@Cacti:
Oh, SNAP!
Mike in NC
@mai naem mobile: Our last trip abroad was a Baltic cruise. Denmark and Sweden were awesome, as was Estonia. Finland was rather grim. Everybody pretty much speaks English, so you’d have time to master the local lingo. Free health care and higher education, but they said the winters were rough.
Origuy
@Tree With Water:
Your Irish great-grandmother might not agree. See Drogheda.
catclub
@The Dangerman: JEB is doing things that look like he will have no chance at the GOP nom – immigration softlining, education still with Common Core. But if he wins he will be much more popular in the general. I have no idea how the future will work out, but I think Cruz will be more popular with the far right, and unite them early against the establishment squish. ( McCain, Romney, etc).
Tree With Water
@Major Major Major Major: I see your head on a stick, and raise you the sack and hole Richard #3 was unceremoniously dumped in.
Tree With Water
@Origuy: Yeah, yeah, I know (“I burn, I burn”). My great-grandmother, hell. I’m going to have to deal with the entire clan somehow, sometime, and somewhere down the line.
Lurking Canadian
@mdblanche: officially, they are supposed to trace their lineage all the way back to Alfred the Great.
The Windsor (nee Saxe-Coburg-Gotha) claim is actually kind of democratic: they were invited once there weren’t any Stuarts left.
mdblanche
@Lurking Canadian: Bonnie Prince Charlie begged to differ about that no Stuarts left thing.
Jeffro
No way does he get the nom: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ted-cruz-jeb-bush-2016-moderate-hillary-clinton
Askew
@Anne Laurie:
You clearly didn’t hang out at Daily Kos in 2006 – thru Super Tuesday. It was all inevitable all the time and we were constantly told to fall in line. Just like now. Only difference is that no one is willing to run against her this time.
Betty Cracker
@Jeffro: I don’t know. Cruz certainly makes the Republican id argument. But in the end, the money bags always roll up the base, don’t they? Maybe they’ll strike a balance with someone like Scott Walker, who is beloved by plutocrats and SoCons both.
Tree With Water
@Anne Laurie: If I ever meet John Edwards, I’ll ask for my $35 back. Forget the exposes that Edwards later received for his all too human bad behavior. The bastard crossed me when he folded his campaign before the California primary, that happening shortly after he solicited my money.
PhilbertDesanex
@Heliopause: Methinks the Brit royals are harmless compared to our Royals, the Bushes. Or is it the Bush-Saudis, wonder if have they intermarried yet?
Anyway, one word to throw your GOP friends at Xmas: George III!
Pogonip
@Shakezula: Not yet.
trollhattan
@PhilbertDesanex:
For one thing, the current crop of royals actually serve in the military.
Tree With Water
@trollhattan: So did Richard #3, for all the good it did him.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Lurking Canadian: which is true, isn’t it, through Elizabeth of York? I read somewhere not long ago, can’t remember where, that Richard II’s DNA suggests (or proves? Can’t remember the details so I don’t want to overstate the case) that Henry Tudor was not related to John of Gaunt. As for descent through the female line, I think that already happened with Henry II, whose mother was William the Conqueror’s daughter?
tones
@geg6:
Cannot agree more, it was past bad enough already.
Costa Rica does sound really nice.
Tree With Water
@geg6: Hunter Thompson told the story of a journalist he knew who left the country for just that reason sometime after 1968, only it was Nixon’s election that proved his final straw. Thompson wrote his friend responded to someone’s remark, made at the inaugural and as Nixon’s limo drove by, by saying, “how do you even know he’s in there”? I’m still not sure what he meant, but have no doubt it made perfect sense to him.
Kevin
In Hillary’s defense…at least she’s only Clinton by marriage…i guess. I mean, the Bush family are blood. And they’ve got more coming up the ranks. I don’t really see Chelsea getting into politics, but George Jr is following the family playbook in Texas, so in a few years you’ll definitely see his face pop up.
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
we do, but not many. I will vote for anybody else in the primary, but I would crawl over glass to vote for Clinton over ANY republican who got the nomination.
Lurking Canadian
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Oh I have no doubt they are all related to Alfred. The Plantagenet family tree turns into a hedgerow around the Wars of the Roses. To borrow GRR Martin’s timeless phrase, you can always tell a tale of second sons and bastard daughters.
As for Henry II…isn’t he the one who came after King Stephen? If he’s the one I’m thinking of, he actually had a better claim than Stephen, being the grandson of Henry I by direct descent. But maybe that was Henry III?
The whole thing is bullshit, anyway. God always seemed to favour the claimant with the biggest army.
Ilya
@Kevin: Caroline Kennedy was being discussed seriously as a potential NY senator in 2009 despite having absolutely no prior history in politics.