For years, I grew up with tales of both sets of grandparents’ visits to Cuba via an easy ferry boat ride from Florida. One set went to gamble and explore the local clubs. The other set went to pester the Catholic Cubans about Protestant Jeebus.
I’ve always longed to follow in the boat-wake of the first set, listening to music and watching 1950s-vintage American cars roll by while sipping a mojito and perhaps even breaking my smoking ban with a big fat cigar. But as the embargo dragged on, I began to believe it would never happen.
Well, maybe I’ll get my chance after all:
WASHINGTON — The United States will open talks with Cuba aimed at restoring full diplomatic relations and opening an embassy in Havana for the first time in more than a half century after the release of an American contractor held in prison for five years, American officials said Wednesday.
President Obama plans to make a televised statement from the White House at noon about the breakthrough, which opens the door to a major international initiative that could help shape his legacy heading into his final two years in office.
Thanks, Obama!
Karen in GA
And heads will go boom. But so what.
I’m always surprised for a second when I hear/read about someone from another country traveling to Cuba, because I’m so used to Cuba being terra non grata. But then I remember that other people can travel to/from there easily because they’re not from the land of the free like I am. (America, fuck yeah, etc.)
dmsilev
The GOP’s ragegasm will register on the Richter Scale.
If Obama really is planning on spending the next two years trolling the GOP, this could end up being more amusing than first throught.
Gravenstone
Apparently Rubio is actually saying supportive things about the move. Someone recognizes that the old guard Cuban refugees are dying off, and that the younger generations can’t be arsed about the embargo.
Belafon
I bet nobody votes for Obama in 2016 because of this.
srv
Cuba should bid on his Presidential Library.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Forty years overdue. Seriously, for this, thank you Obama. It will help Cuba. And it’s sure not like he’s got anything to lose at this point anyway.
Sherparick
I think those two bangs you just heard were Bob Menendez’s and Ted Cruz’s heads exploding. I will safely predict that a “bi-partisan” coalition of Senators will do their best to scuttle this next month. Broadly popular, and inch deep, this may be good policy, but I don’t see the upside for anyone running for office. It does give Hillary something to criticize Obama for (she will need at least neutralize the Cuban vote from going to the Republicans in Florida). Another example of why things don’t work so well.
dance around in your bones
Wow – you rock, Obama! That whole embargo thing was so estupido and embarrassing for America…
I’d LOVE to go to Cuba.
P.S. I left comments for Violet and Omnes in the Adventures in Fund Transference thread, misspellings and all because I hadn’t had my tea yet.
JMV Pyro
What was even the point of having this embargo after the fall of the Berlin Wall? Besides petty vindictiveness, I mean.
Amir Khalid
I intend no offence to your grandparents, but that seems a rather pointless thing to do. Why preach Christianity to people who are already Christians? (I am aware that, elsewhere in Latin America, Protestant evangelists are winning over some Catholics.)
Sourmash
So now Obama doesn’t even want to rule America with an iron fist anymore, grinding the hopes and dreams of True Patriots everywhere under the boot heel of comprehensive health care and outsourcing his tyranny to the Castros?
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Gravenstone: I’m not surprised. Most people are over and done with it. Not all. I went to college with a girl who lost her shit in my cinema class one day because the dimwit teacher was raving on about the awesomeness of Castro (I went to a very liberal school) and she stood up and said, very quietly: “Fidel killed both my parents” and walked out.
She’d be in her late forties, so there’s still some folks for whom, with good reason, this will never be OK, but time and the world have moved on, and none of us can hold a grudge forever.
gratuitous
What a nice little Christmas present! Thank you, Mr. President. It’s been a long time coming, and as an added bonus, we get to watch Billo sputter and fume and try to rile up the septugenarian ex-pat crowd.
Belafon
@Sherparick:
I wanted to disagree with you, but we’re in an age where people vote against things, not for things.
polyorchnid octopunch
No! You guys’ll come in and ruin the joint for everybody.
Judge Crater
Marco Rubio is now on TV railing, ranting, fulminating against this action. Good christ, when American tourists show up and start spending greenbacks, Cuban communism will disappear.
Amir Khalid
@JMV Pyro:
Absent any rational reason, I think petty vindictiveness is the point of continuing the embargo.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Neocon Bob Menendez is apparently stroking out. Maybe he’s hoping for a lot of cold warriors on his jury.
Castro outlived Reagan in power and in life. We’re supposed to just look the other way?
Josie
@Sherparick: Actually, one of the few good things about the Republican takeover of the Senate is that Robert Menendez is no longer chairman of his committee and won’t be able to scuttle the deal. Moreover, if he teams up with the ever popular Ted Cruz, he will be headed for political oblivion.
OzarkHillbilly
You don’t have to wait Betty. A buddy of mine has been caving there for several years now. (via Mexico)
Marc
Every now and then, Obama likes to remind us why we worked our asses off to elect him. Good for him.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Judge Crater: Little Marco Moistpants is flip-flopping? That’s unpossible!
RP
This calls for another GOP lawsuit stat! on second thought, IMPEACH NOW!
Hildebrand
@Amir Khalid: Because the Fundamentalist Evangelicals don’t regard Catholicism as true Christianity. In fact, the Evangelicals down here in Deep South Texas tend to talk about ‘Christians’ and ‘Catholics’ as if they were completely different religions. And, of course, if you don’t believe in the true faith, you are headed for eternal damnation, thus they need to ‘save’ you from your error filled ways.
Fundamentalists of every stripe are the greatest plague of the modern age.
JMV Pyro
@Amir Khalid:
It is the most obvious explanation.
PaulW
http://noticeatrend.blogspot.com/2008/02/cuba-question-part-cxlviii.html I wrote that in 2008, six years ago, at a point where the embargoes have been rolling for 40-plus years already. No one was winning that fight.
Normalizing and opening up Cuba is a move that’s been overdue since the fall of the Soviet Union. This is what Obama can do now the last two years of this term: use diplomacy to end tired old fights and renew alliances with vital regions (this will go a long way towards improving US image in Caribbean and Central American nations).
Hell, this kind of move by him makes me wanna vote him back for a third term.
SiubhanDuinne
One of these thngs is not like the other.
schrodinger's cat
@Amir Khalid: It may be pointless but proselytizing is what god-bothering Protestants do. I have been at the receiving end more than once. Do. not. want.
Do the Sunni try to proselytize the Shia or vice-versa? I have never heard of it.
Marc
@Sherparick:
The Cuban vote in Florida is already trending towards Democrats; Obama either won or nearly won them in 2012. The young voters don’t care about the embargo.
None of this is to say that Hillary Clinton won’t run furiously against Obama’s achievements for little or no electoral gain, of course.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Amir Khalid: In America, there is a long standing tradition of considering the folks of Catholic faith to not be Christians. They are frequently referred to as “papists” or worse by those of an unsophisticated bent. It’s lost its violent edge, but back not too long ago, being an open Catholic in some parts of this country could get you assaulted or far worse.
It’s kinda like that Shiite/Sunni thing, which to me makes no sense whatsoever, but apparently it’s a big deal to those who are followers of that particular faith.
PaulW
@Amir Khalid:
Yes it was. The charges and countercharges of spying/espionage (one of the moves today was freeing an American prisoner for health reasons out of Cuba) were just part of the petty sniping between our nations.
Speaking of sniping… this can have a huge impact on the very existence of Gitmo as a Marine base… and as a millstone of the stained Cheney torture regime.
Mustang Bobby
The only people who are against this are los historicos choking on their domino tiles on Calle Ocho here in Miami. They’re the ones who have all of their documents, deeds, titles, and bank bonds saying they still have their property in Havana and Veradero Beach, the DeSoto is still in the driveway, and Pepe and Rosita, the faithful servants, will be at the door to greet them when they go back, stepping over the rotting corpses of Fidel and Raul.
Their children and grandchildren don’t give a culo de raton and are already trying to figure out how to be the first to open a NAPA Auto Parts Store in Havana to fix all the Studebakers, Hudsons, and Nashs rumbling down the Malecon.
Rubio’s rant is strictly for them, and if he could figure out a way to run for president of Cuba, he’d do it.
Mike in NC
@Josie: Asswipe Marco Rubio is now promising to block any action to normalize relations with Cuba, because he needs to pander to the 70+ Cuban-American voters in Florida, even though there are fewer of them every day.
I spent a few weeks at Gitmo around 1984. Nice beaches but it was hotter than hell.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Mustang Bobby: any La Salles? I’ve always been partial to La Salles. I hear they ran great.
Cervantes
There’ve been ways to get around the embargo.
kc
That’s great news. And although GOP pols may hate it, most of the Republicans I personally know will be all for it.
JPL
@SiubhanDuinne: Both sides and all that.
The NYTimes said another person was released as part of the deal. Marco knows he can rant all he wants because that other person will not be named.
Betty Cracker
@OzarkHillbilly: Yeah, but if State catches you, you’re on the hook for a hefty fine. Besides, why the hell should I have to cross the Gulf to go to Mexico to visit an island 90 miles from my state? Bah!
kc
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
I think the fundie Christian/Catholic animosity in the US is rapidly becoming a thing of the past, as adherents of both faiths realize they have a common deity, the Holy Fetus.
Mustang Bobby
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Both of my grandparents had them. In fact, I remember riding in my granddad’s LaSalle when I was about two or three. It did run great. Those were the days.
Josie
@Mike in NC: I can’t say for sure, since I am not from Florida, but I suspect that this will be as successful as some of his other political moves.
vtr
Who’ll be the first Republican to seek permission to build a casino resort in Havana? I’ve been wondering that for a long time?
dmsilev
Via the NY Times story,
Fascinating. I wonder who is going to be the first to accuse New Pope of coddling communists or something like that.
catclub
@Amir Khalid:
An astute observation. PLus, beat me to it.
Amir Khalid
@schrodinger’s cat:
Me neither. The original split between Sunni and Shiite Islam came about over a narrow political issue: the succession to the Caliphate. Despite the centuries of divergence in scholarly tradition, there are no major doctrinal or ritual differences to speak of. So you don’t have the sharp differentiation that exist between Christian churches.
mai naem mobile
If the US could make up with the Russians and the Vietnamese, i think we can survive Cuba. Also too, I’m guessing American bidnezz would be very happy to be involved in the.continued development of Cuba. Hell, if the USSC manages to kill O-Care, and opens up Cuba I’ll start a medical tourism company to Cuba.
Amir Khalid
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Those were the days.
D58826
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Heck,I think the only leader in the world who has outlived Castro is the Queen.
Mike in NC
@dmsilev: Naturally, Bill O’Reilly will blast this as part of the liberal War on Christmas, years in the planning!
Amir Khalid
@D58826:
She’s a ceremonial head of state, not an actual national leader.
The Ancient Randonneur
President Honey Badger has been on a roll lately.
ETA: American farmers will be very, very happy to have the embargo end.
MattF
I think Fidel was the problem. He habitually double-crossed anyone who came within 100 yards. But with the old man out of the way, there’s lots of people who’d like to visit Cuba. Pearl of the Caribbean and all that.
D58826
@Amir Khalid: True. But she still has outlived them all
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Amir Khalid: that’s what she WANTS you to think!
elmo
@Hildebrand: When I lived in Tennessee, I had brief but heady success with an open-Mike standup routine, in which I, the Californian, was taken on a tour of all the Christian churches – there was the New Baptist, Primitive Baptist, Redeemer Baptist, God’s Love Baptist, etc, etc. It was a long patter with rhythm, ending with, and of course the Methodists over there. But wait, I said, pointing to the massive stone edifice with the huge cross and stained glass windows. Why didn’t you show me that one? My guide sneered. That’s the Catholics. They’re not Christian.
The face I made with the last word is what sold the joke, and I never failed to get a roar of approval.
Big Picture Pathologist
@CONGRATULATIONS! Apparently, when it comes to conflicts, one side is supposed to suffer casualties whereas the other is not.
Sorry, but the teacher is right. Castro never got punked like Allende and Cuba was better off for it.
boatboy_srq
@Amir Khalid: Welcome to FundiEvangelism. According to far too many Xtians, Catholics, Orthodox et al aren’t really Christian, so missionaries are necessary to go convert them to the True Faith. A lot of the “religious persecution” dreck one hears them spouts from this exact point: Fundie missionaries going to Christian communities and telling them that a) they’re not Christian (which is both demonstrably incorrect and patently offensive) and b) that the hate-filled Prosperity-Gospel-infused Xtianity the missionaries spout is (which to an actual Christian is at least as offensive if not much more so). They not infrequently do this in the US: there aren’t many in the US that don’t have some tale of Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses knocking on their doors offering to share Jeebus with them, and here in NoVA we get the AoG and Southern Baptist variants as well. I’ve lost any sympathy for such antics.
Patricia Kayden
If the embargo is supposed to be about Cuba being a communist country, why does Communist China have most favored status when it comes to trade? I don’t understand the hypocrisy.
I have a Cuban colleague who wants the embargo to stay in effect until Fidel Castro dies. I get her position since her entire family had to flee Cuba but I understand why President Obama may want to normalize relations with Cuba now that Fidel is no longer in power.
Cervantes
@D58826: Not quite. My recollection is that the reigning King of Thailand was crowned a few years before she was.
Karen in GA
@RP: They should sue him for having the audacity not to give them reasons to impeach. Damned tyrant.
Just Some Fuckhead
And then he can give Guantanamo back to Cuba. Everyone wins.
Amir Khalid
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Good point.
Rommie
So, only Obama can go to Cuba?
I hope he continues trolling the GOP, it’s the main way to expose the inside of the clown car.
Betty Cracker
@Patricia Kayden: It’s never made a lick of sense, except as a political bulwark in Florida, but now that is fading. Sure, there are human rights abuses in Cuba, which should not be minimized. But neither should the hideous oppression in Saudi Arabia and the ghastly abuses perpetrated right here in the USA. It’s past time to chuck this embargo, and I’m so glad the president took it up.
Judge Crater
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yes. He’s been on a couple of networks beating the same dead horse.
It’s the usual bullshit about how sanctions work and they should be used for leverage and democracy won’t flourish in Cuba until we crush the nasty communists.
Gravenstone
@Judge Crater: His money people must’ve yanked down on his chain pretty hard. Because the initial comment I heard (on MLB TV actually, they were discussing the impact on MLB of Cuba being open) from Rubio sounded fairly supportive.
schrodinger's cat
@Amir Khalid: My Shia friend from Pakistan used to joke that marrying a Hindu person from India would be preferable to marrying a Sunni Muslim from Pakistan, according to her more observant relatives.
ETA: Her family was originally from India and she was more favorably disposed to Indians in general than say the ruling Punjabi elite who she thought were unlettered goons.
Gravenstone
@dmsilev: This is actually of a piece with reports that Pope Francis has offered to broker an agreement to close Gitmo.
? Martin
@dmsilev:
And nobody under the age of 50 will have any fucking idea why. This is just Obama trolling the geriatric GOP into demanding that we put bumblebees back on nickels.
? Martin
@Gravenstone: Oh, that’s smart! Let’s watch Hannity and Rush get pissed at the Pope.
Cacti
The entire south Florida Republican political establishment has lost its reason for being.
Amir Khalid
@schrodinger’s cat:
Yeah, that’s consistent with the level of bad blood between Shiite and Sunni Islam. In Malaysia, there is not a single mosque for the expatriate Shiite community; the state religious authorities here, all of them Sunni, won’t allow it. Shiites must use a private residence for Friday prayers.
Jeremy
@Sherparick: Actually you’re wrong. A recent poll showed the majority of people in the U.S. including Florida supporting normalizing relations with Cuba. Also the Cuban vote has been trending towards the democrats and President Obama did better with the Cuban vote than any other democrat in recent times. Hillary Clinton has also supported normalizing relations. This isn’t 20 years ago or even 10 years ago. Times have changed.
Cervantes
@Patricia Kayden:
It’s not about communism, as you observed. Nor is it about human rights, as should be obvious to even the most casual observer. Some say it’s about the Castro regime’s refusal to pay for property it nationalized when Batista fled — but it’s not about that, either, as discussed here recently.
NonyNony
@Gravenstone:
Broker a deal with who? The US Congress?
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
I could see this going a couple of ways:
1) A couple of days of “rage” then it falling off the radar while some new squirrel appears.
b) Reporters trying to find anyone who will give them a sound-bite criticizing the move but not finding much (op.cit. Rubio).
III) A steadily building march of outrage (“Benghazi!!11”) that never goes away, but only has resonance in the FoxNews part of the world.
4) People ignore it, or nod their heads saying “about time – more tourism for Florida; a good move; etc.”.
I’d like to think it will be the last, but I assume c) will get some traction. Gotta have some more reasons to InPeach the tyrant, amirite??
/snark
Cheers,
Scott.
Gravenstone
@NonyNony: I would guess it would be to try to find countries to accept the remaining prisoners. Then Congress can sit and fume impotently over US tax dollars keeping an empty installation open out of spite.
Jeremy
Younger Cubans don’t have the same feelings about Cuba that older Cubans have. Many were born after the embargo.
JPL
The local ABC station is not covering the speech. They have a hour news show, so surely they could still cover the local news. CBS and NBC are both carrying the speech.
The ABC station is owned by Cox Enterprises which owns the AJC also.
Dcrefugee
Well, well… I’ve been thinking about becoming an expat somewhere, especially if an R wins the White House in ’16, and now I may have a solution. Ship in some used cars and I’ve got a retirement plan to boot…
Nicely done, Mr. President: I just love me the sound of wingnut heads exploding in the morning.
LanceThruster
More of this, please.
Lots more.
lol
@Sherparick:
The Cubans who support the embargo didn’t vote for Obama in 2008 and 2012. He never had their vote and he won the state anyways.
schrodinger's cat
Trolling, it has been accomplished. I just checked KLo’s hangout, they have begun their bitching and qvetching. Nicely done, Mr. President.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
This may actually kill old man Cruz. That is one hateful old fuck.
Tractarian
This is a great move by Obama, but don’t blow it out of proportion.
According to NYT, the embargo will remain in place, as will the travel ban for tourists.
Good luck with that…
Frankensteinbeck
I don’t think this will have any backlash. Everyone still scared of Communists is in the ‘crawl over broken glass to vote against a Democrat’ group anyway. Most of America will go ‘We had a what against who?’
@kc:
Close. They have a common enemy. Christianity is dying a slow death in America. Fifty years ago, if you publicly declared that Jesus told you to do something, you’d be cheered. These days, it’s about 50/50 that you’ll be mocked instead. There’s also all these damn negros around. They’ve lost their cultural dominance, and can no longer afford to fight each other. They need every ally they can get to restore Traditional America where a white man saying the word ‘God’ was automatically righteous and respected.
EDIT – The Holy Fetus, which as we’ve argued many times they don’t actually give a damn about, is merely a cudgel in this fight.
Matt McIrvin
Rubio is not supporting this. There’s a quote from him that sounds vaguely supportive until you realize that for Rubio, giving Cuba an “economic lift” is bad since he thinks the embargo will somehow eventually topple the Castros.
Jeremy
@Tractarian: No one is blowing it out of proportion. But this is a big step and they will loosen a number of travel restrictions. This reminds me of Nixon opening relations with China.
Tractarian
@Matt McIrvin:
That’s right.
Tractarian
@Jeremy: Plenty of commenters in this thread have talked about the embargo as if it is now a thing of the past. It is not. And if you think it is a harbinger of things to come, let me ask you this:
Do you think Congress will pass a bill lifting the embargo and tourist ban?
Ever?
Frankensteinbeck
@Tractarian:
I thought I was hearing that Obama had found a way to end the embargo, so you have a point.
EDIT – I really should know not to trust ANY political news until I’ve examined the source material. Wild misrepresentations are the norm, not the exception.
SiubhanDuinne
@Patricia Kayden:
The President made that very point in his remarks (although he didn’t actually use the word “hypocrisy”).
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Tractarian: Gotta start somewhere.
Plus, it’s hard to imagine Obama’s State Department cracking down on people going to Cuba through 3rd countries, so the embargo will presumably get leakier even if Congress does nothing.
It’s a good first step, and long overdue.
Cheers,
Scott.
lamh36
@CONGRATULATIONS!: actually Rubio called Obama the worst negotiator since Carter. Before he hearD the terms. He sound really stupid now though
lamh36
Seanly
CNN got to bring out their “Cubans angry, well not all of them just those over 70” story. It’s pretty easy story to write – just bring up the last version, tack on a couple of years to the angry exiles’ ages & post.
Opening relations with Cuba won’t cause the Democratic Party to write off Florida. The Cuban vote is mostly in the Miami metro area and accounts for maybe 5% of the state. I’m not an expert on FL politics, but I would guess most of that particular 5% is already Republican, particularly the older ones who’d be the most cheesed off
It’s good to begin to normalize relations with Cuba. The Canadians & Europeans have been investing there for years now and the sooner we get back into that market, the better.
My wife is part-Cuban – since she’s adopted, she has no cultural or family ties (she didn’t even know her birth parents’ heritages until she turned 18). When I’ve asked if she’d ever want to visit Cuba, she laughed it off.
Face
Pardon my ignorance, but if so, exactly what is changing? If we still cant trade with ’em, and still cant travel there, then just what the hell will be different?
Jeremy
@Tractarian: No but this move will lead to the eventual end of the embargo. Once you go down this road it’s hard to stop it, and the majority of Americans support it. The embargo won’t go away while President Obama is in office but we will get there.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
The fact that he said Carter instead of Chamberlain proves he will never be the GOP nominee.
Jeremy
@Face: They are loosening the restrictions. The embargo will not go away unless Congress acts on it, but the Administration does have executive discretion in a number of areas that will open up relations.
Violet
@dance around in your bones: Thanks for letting me know. Sorry the surgery got postponed. Are you no longer at the horse place with the boy toy?
Tractarian
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I totally agree. Like I said, it’s a great move. And yet, like Obama’s immigration EO, that all goes out the window the minute Jeb! takes the oath of office.
@Jeremy: So you’re saying yes, you do think Congress will pass a bill lifting the embargo and travel ban?
Betty Cracker
Regarding travel to Cuba, my understanding is this move eases travel restrictions right now. There have always been exceptions to the travel ban. My cousin, a writer, got permission to go there for research many years ago and had to jump though all kinds of hoops. From what I’m reading at WaPo, the Miami Herald and other sources, there are now fewer hoops. It’s a start.
texasdem
Good for Obama! and it’s about time. When I was a kid, my family lived in Marianao, a suburb of Havana, for 3 years (BC, before Castro). It is a beautiful country, with great people and great food. There are wonderful beaches, including Varadero. I always used to laugh, back in the day when planes were being hijacked to Cuba, that they were “forced” to land at the airport in Varadero rather than in Havana–only the location of one of the nicest beaches in the whole Caribbean.
Re Betty Cracker’s comment about the ferry: you used to be able to take a car ferry from either Miami or Key West to Havana. From Miami, it was an overnight trip and you could get a cabin to sleep in; from Key West, it was just a few hour day trip.
Jeremy
@Face: From the NY Times:
The United States will also ease travel restrictions across all 12 categories currently envisioned under limited circumstances in American law, including family visits, official visits, journalistic, professional, educational and religious activities, and public performances, officials said. Ordinary tourism, however, will remain prohibited. Mr. Obama will also allow greater banking ties and raise the level of remittances allowed to be sent to Cuban nationals to $2,000 every three months from the current limit of $500. Intermediaries forwarding remittances will no longer require a specific license from the government. American travelers will also be allowed to import up to $400 worth of goods from Cuba, including up to $100 in tobacco and alcohol products.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/18/world/americas/us-cuba-relations.html?_r=0
Tractarian
@Face: As Jeremy said, loosening travel restrictions. Plus, normalization of relations – including an embassy, diplomatic staff, etc. That’s not nothing.
But it’s not the end of the embargo or tourist ban.
PurpleGirl
@schrodinger’s cat: The comptroller for the non-profit I worked for explained it this way: When he was born the subcontinent was one country, then it became two (but split in a funny way) and now it was three. His family was Muslim in a Hindu area so when the division came they moved to England first. Then they moved to the US.
Pococurante
@Marc: And Hillary is already on record supporting the lift.
gvg
My reading of the Florida support for the Cuban embargo is it has to do with Sugar corps in the Everglades. A few Rich families have been buying polititans here to keep it in place. I can’t prove that, but Florida’s sugar cane wasn’t profitable until the embargo as Cuban sugar was cheaper. there are some problems growing it here in that we aren’t actually tropical enough and you have to burn it just before it should ripen in order to finish it somehow and in Cuba you don’t. Also there were and I think still are some subsidies in place that go to the Florida sugar growers to make the growing more profitable as part of the spite against Cuba and to encourage sugar production here. When the embargo was created we actually had something of a supply sugar shortage when we cut ourselves off from Cuban sugar. Other American sugar growers like midwestern sugar beet growers don’t get the price supports. In addition Florida cane growing pollutes our waterways (lots of petro fertilizers) and trying to get teh cane growing in the everglades has been a major ecological fight here in Florida since the 80’s. These days I think America has too much cheap sugar and it would be healthier to impose a sugar tax but ending the embargo and cutting the profits of US sugar would start to erode the power of that clique.
Jeremy
@Tractarian: I think in the not so distant future yes. Even younger Cuban Americans are tired of the policy. The old Cubans who are dying off are the only people who really care, and like China and Vietnam relations will continue to develop over time.
Botsplainer
@JMV Pyro:
The older oligarch émigrés (and some of their more delusional offspring that were raised on tales of family wealth) had a dream of sauntering in and reclaiming propert and service concessions. As time went on and those places licensed out to Iberostar and other European concerns, it became apparent that the dream is merely a wet one.
Hell, the last Cuban president before Batista (Carlos Prio Socarras) died under an odd cloud as a real estate developer in Miami in 1977. Those oligarchs were a greedy, entitled lot.
Emma
@Face: One step at a time. Getting an embassy open and direct diplomatic relations allows for a slow slide into normality. Boiling frogs, so to speak.
The embargo is a joke. Cuban exiles send to Cuban relatives the equivalent of a small country’s GDP every year. My aunt, who is also my godmother, is a diabetic. A lot of the stuff like diabetes readers, needles, etc. can’t be had there, so I send them to her. Also, 0ne of the hardest things to find is school backpacks and other supplies; I have a cousin who just got her MD and does week-long stints in a hospital away from home. I supplied her with a heavy-duty climbing-type backpack, ballpoint pens, and believe it or not, a pregnancy wheel. Every time I go to a conference and get a backpack or tote, it’s earmarked for another school-age relative (with which I am past-sufficiently supplied)
We might talk a big game, but you’ll find that between politics and family, family always win.
Bobby Thomson
@Pococurante: Good for her. And she probably helped do some of the prep work.
This is both good policy and good politics.
Tractarian
Absolutely. I don’t mean to rain on anyone’s parade; this is great news and it should be easier for people who already had a recognized reason to travel. Plus, great news for people who send $ to relatives there.
I’m just saying there’s no reason to be confident that Congress will be as enlightened on this issue as the President is. As we have seen in the last four years, they will stand in Obama’s way just for obstruction’s sake.
So if I have any criticism of Obama, it’s that he should have “led from behind” on this issue, like he did with marriage equality, marijuana policy, etc. That makes it much harder for the GOP to demagogue, especially if you’ve got majority support.
Tree With Water
I’ve just read a book by entitled The Outfit (G. Russo, Bloomsbury publishing). It’s a fascinating book about Chicago organized crime (you’ve all heard of Al Capone, of course, but how many know about Llewelyn Morris Humphreys)?
One upshot of the book touches on today’s decision, in that Russo is convinced the mafia had nothing to do with JFK’s assassination. If that’s true- and Russo makes a pretty compelling case it is- that basically leaves the CIA and Castro as behind the killing.
I believe that shooting involved a conspiracy, and for decades suspected it to be the reason for our continuing embargo of Cuba. I figured while Castro still lived, normalization of relations was out of the question. But he is alive, so scratch that theory. Assuming Russo is correct and my theory today disproved, who does that leave hold the holding the bag? I submit that anyone who dismisses the possibility as out of the question is politically credulous, in the extreme.
D58826
Chuck Todd just made an interesting point (yea I know). The US has been trying to build a Latin American version of the EU but the stumbling block has been the issue of Cuba. This opening to Cuba will open up possibilities in the rest of Latin American
Liberty60
@Frankensteinbeck:
So, Obama is not sending people to FEMA camps for mandatory lesbian indoctrination?
Damn.
Bokonon
The hardcore wingnuts are going to have to chose – are they going to be full-time enraged about immigration, this, or BENGHAZEEEEE?
Either that, or a bunch of them are going to end up in rubber rooms (or the morgue), following overdoses of pure, unadulterated rage.
Botsplainer
@Mustang Bobby:
This. A thousand times this
Stealing for FB
Liberty60
@D58826: AND THEN THE AMEROS!!!!11!
PurpleGirl
@texasdem:
Re Betty Cracker’s comment about the ferry: you used to be able to take a car ferry from either Miami or Key West to Havana. From Miami, it was an overnight trip and you could get a cabin to sleep in; from Key West, it was just a few hour day trip.
Because that 90-mile thing is from Key West not from Miami, as I learned when reading about the Keys after a trip there back in the early 1990s.
different-church-lady
@Judge Crater:
Yes, but then again, so will Cuban culture.
Be careful what you wish for.
japa21
@Tractarian: Leading from behind would have involved what, exactly? He has talked about reviewing our policies with Cuba for a long time and has made several adjustments to the policies over the years.
Having full diplomatic relations, embassy and all, will make it harder to justify the embargo. Will it happen while he is President? Probably not, even though there is a lot of bipartisan support for lifting the embargo and travel ban. But, with the GOP in control of both House and Senate, and their tendency to be against anything Obama is for, it won’t happen. But under the next President, even if it weree A GOP one, I think it would happen pretty quickly.
boatboy_srq
@Mike in NC:
The first time I read that, I interpreted that as a quantity and not an age range. Which seemed deliciously appropriate somehow.
Either way, Rubio’s target is small, and shrinking.
different-church-lady
@Tractarian:
Well great — now what else is there for us to do?
Bokonon
@Seanly: How predictable of CNN to immediately chose that angle, and immediately hand the visuals to a bunch of angry right wing nuts, and play up the emotional angle. Just like CNN has done on every major news issue since … I dunno … they went full-time tabloid with the airplane disappearance. And even before that.
Plus, from the political end, somewhere in the bowels of headquarters, some market researchers are trying to find the appropriate way to appeal to Fox’s audience while seeming more reasonable and respectable on this issue … and every other.
different-church-lady
@PurpleGirl:
If it’s close enough to see Russia, it’s close enough to see Fidel.
boatboy_srq
@Liberty60: Mandatory treehugging atheist-Muslim FascoSoshulist recreational-abortionist recycled solar lesbian indoctrination. If you’re going to reeducate, ya gotta do it right.
D58826
There was a very strong China lobby (i.e. isolate the mainland) when Nixon went to China. They fought a rearguard action for years but in the end events overtook them and now the mainland is major trading partner with the US. I suspect the same thing will happen with the old guard Cuban dead enders.
Tractarian
@japa21:
Allowing the public and other politicians to push the issue. Not saying that’s realistic in this context, just that it would bring far better (and far more resilient) results.
It’s true that, whoever is elected in 2016, they’ll certainly have a honeymoon/grace period during which Congress will be pliant. Jeb or Hillary could push reforms through, I suppose.
(Of course, then we’ll hear years later about how the President “wasted” political capital on lifting the embargo when s/he should have been “focusing on the economy”…. )
Davis X. Machina
@Patricia Kayden: why does Communist China have most favored status when it comes to trade? I don’t understand the hypocrisy.
You need to distinguish carefully between the Communist Communist countries and the Capitalist Communists countries.
Bobby Thomson
@Gravenstone:
Not empty. There has been a military installation at Guantanamo since 1903. It just added to its mission statement under Junior Bush. Guantanamo Bay Naval Base =/ Guantanamo Bay Detention Center.
raven
Wonder if Bacardi will “uncork” those commercials from a while back?
Botsplainer
FReepers are losing their collective shit, LOL.
I take it as a big ol’ “Fuck You!” to Ted and Rafael.
Bobby Thomson
@different-church-lady:
Some positive and negative features may both change. Hopefully that includes the underage prostitution – though the Dominican Republic’s experience might suggest otherwise.
Rex Tremendae
Bad move, Obama, and just when the embargo was finally going to toss out the Castros!
(Someone actually made this argument to me recently — the embargo was just starting to weaken the ruling class of Cuba).
Mike E
@Rommie: If anything, Obama needs to keep this up if only to antagonize the GOP into committing many more own goals.
sparrow
@Amir Khalid: Because some sick fucks think that only if you believe in the right brand of Christianity will you go to heaven, and that the more souls they “save” the more points they get in heaven.
Suzanne
OT, but that asswipe Martha McSally officially beat Ron Barber for the Congressional seat held by Gabby Giffords by 167 votes, out of over 200,000 cast.
BARF.
Fuck you, Tucson.
Sherparick
@CONGRATULATIONS!: Rubio’s head also exploded, what a surprise (not)! It is amazing how his brief fling with moderation in early 2013 on the immigration bill has given him a permanent “centrist” glow for the VSPs while he continues to be a complete and utter wing nut (two real, small ‘c” conservatives, Doug Matonis “Outside the Beltway” and Daniel Larison at “American Conservative” loathe him as arch Chicken Hawk who looks on all negotiation as “weakness.”)
If this Bloomberg story is true, I expect the National Review will probably be calling for Pope Frank’s excommunication. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-17/historic-phone-call-sealed-cuba-deal-spurred-by-pope.html
Rich (Torture Boy) Lowery, Michael Gerson, and Daniel Douthat have probably all fainted in shock.
Now thousands of wingnut heads will be exploding with the discovery the Kenyan Muslim Tryranical (but lazy) has the Pope covering his back on this one.
beltane
I’m waiting for the Republicans and the media to explain to us how this puts the US in grave danger from EbolaISIS. Cuba is less than 100 miles from Key West. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Bobby Thomson
@Amir Khalid:
For all the sturm and drung, the biggest differences between American churches are political, not doctrinal.
J R in WV
When I was young, many decades ago, I was part of the military build-up in Key West to protect Florida from the impending invasion of Cuban communistas. I was handed a loaded 1911 .45 to stand duty with at night.
There were at least 3 missile bases on Key West itself, hidden by very tall berms built up to protect them. They’re gone now, to make room for more hotels I think. When I was there, there were like 4 or 5 hotels, and now there are 70 or 80.
There are flights from Miami to Havana already, and have been since the last relaxation of the embargo. Many tour organizers offer tours to Cuba right now, we’ve talked about taking one to get away from the sleet and freezing rain. Many of them do go through Mexico, or even Canada, but I’m pretty sure there are flights from Florida. I do see that Expedia doesn’t even list Havana Cuba, though….
rikyrah
Well, can I now board a plane at Chicago Midway directly to Havana?
JPL
@Botsplainer: Do the freepers know that Rafael escaped imprisonment because of his support for Castro?
beltane
@Rex Tremendae: These people are like dogs barking at a statue. Maybe if they just keep barking louder the statue will run away.
Villago Delenda Est
This alone is sufficient justification of the Cuban Revolution…to ban the foul Bible thumping vermin from their shores.
Tree With Water
@Davis X. Machina: Right. As Willie Sutton famously remarked, “because that’s where the money is”.
beltane
Today is Pope Francis’s birthday. If the stories of him brokering the agreement are true, then it is quite the birthday present.
Bobby Thomson
@dmsilev: Serious man crush on Frank.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bobby Thomson: This is because American churches aren’t really about religion.
They’re about money.
Villago Delenda Est
@Rex Tremendae: The stupid. It burns.
Tom
@Amir Khalid:
Because there is a subset of Protestants who don’t believe that Catholics are really Christians.
Seriously, I had a co-worker tell me this once. Apparently it’s because Catholics use a hymnal during services and not the Bible.
beltane
@Tom: To be fair, most of the devout Catholics I’ve known don’t consider Evangelicals to be Christians at all so it cuts both ways.
Political Realism
Obama just lost Florida for the Dems in 2016.
This is nothing but a sellout to Communism – and the Cuban American community won’t soon forget it .
Everything is coming up milhouse for Jeb Bush …
schrodinger's cat
@Sherparick: Many conservative Catholics are not huge fans of the current pope. He is not mean enough for them.
Tree With Water
@beltane: If that’s true, Anton Scalia is heading for a crisis of faith.
Elizabelle
Marco Rubio throwing up squid ink and butthurt. C-Span, but happened earlier.
PBO is a dreadful negotiator. (“The worst negotiator in my lifetime.”) You heard it from Rubio first.
Meh.
pseudonymous in nc
Just make sure that “exiles” don’t show up in Cuba with empty container ships first.
And Americans may be surprised to find that Cubans don’t all live in shacks.
Elizabelle
@Political Realism:
Coconut cream. Real Whipped cream.
Villago Delenda Est
@schrodinger’s cat: Yes, the people at Noisemax are in a tizzy because Francis is obviously much less fascist than their beloved Ratzi.
beltane
@Tree With Water: People like Scalia are happy to use Evangelicals to support their agenda though privately convinced they are heretics doomed to eternal damnation.
kd bart
This is definitely good news for McCain.
Elizabelle
Rubio sounds so much more charming in Spanish.
Roger Moore
@Villago Delenda Est:
You make it sound as if one can’t found a religion centered around money. All the Mammon worshipers in those Fundangelical churches are proof otherwise.
Villago Delenda Est
@Political Realism: Wow, talk about your megastupid.
Let’s hear it for UNLIMITED CORPORATE CASH while we’re at it.
Villago Delenda Est
@Elizabelle: He probably sounds equally charming in Bavarian/Austrian German.
Sherparick
@Davis X. Machina: Well, for a long time after WWII and the Korean War there was a significant right-wing Nationalist “China” lobby that kept the U.S. from having relationship at all with the PRC. But then one of the founders of that movement, Richard Nixon, decided “never mind,” and open relations with China and for the most part the “China lobby” went into the ash can of history. William Buckley, founder of National Review, for one, never forgave Nixon for it. But because this “lobby” was mostly rich, right-wing white people, with no support in the Chinese-American community there was no electoral consequences (Buckley and his ilk never going to vote for a Democrat – Reagan gave them some rhetorical flourishes and followed through on Nixon through Carter’s China policy.) Cuba, had a mass migration of much of its upper and middle classes (and in 1978-80 its working class) to the U.S. (destination Florida, but also New Jersey, hence Bob Menendez), who became American citizens and voters with a grudge. Politicians like to win elections. That is their incentive. Since a significant part of the voters of Florida and New Jersey will vote (or once did vote) on a single issue signaling hatred for Fidel, the politicians gave them their signal.
different-church-lady
@Villago Delenda Est: Quit putting out kibble for the neighborhood stray, that’s what I say.
Political Realism
@Villago Delenda Est:
Gloat as much as you want, but the vast majority of this country (unlike you and your cohorts ) doesn’t admire Castro. Obama had just proved that he’s soft on Communism .
The cause of liberty for Cuba has been dealt a death blow by Obama and the Pope – they’re the exact opposite of Reagan and John Paul II who had the moral clarity to oppose Communist tyranny.
Sherparick
@schrodinger’s cat: That’s what I mean. Their heads are going to explode. I won’t be surprise for calls that Benedict come back and set up a schismatic church. I expect that some of them already hate Pope Frank more than they hate the Kenyans Usurper.
? Martin
@beltane: The chess board is half pawns.
Jeremy
@Political Realism: Wow ! You’re an idiot !
Wakeup ! This isn’t 2000 or 2004. Younger Cuban Americans don’t have the same views as the older generation. Which is why Obama almost won a majority of Florida Cuban voters in 2012. The Cuban vote is no longer a solid republican vote.
Betty Cracker
@different-church-lady:
We can always piss and moan about how dumb other people are to jump to conclusions or pontificate about issues that are less than fully settled. That, along with pedantry, comprise the second and third legs of the Balloon Juice triathlon.
Elizabelle
@Villago Delenda Est:
Esperanto, even.
It’s surreal to hear Republicans talk about promoting democracy. Over there. Voting restrictions targeted at political opponents here.
West of the Cascades
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
But elsewhere Rubio implied Chamberlain: Rubio was quoted in the NYT as saying “Today’s announcement initiating a dramatic change in U.S. policy toward Cuba is just the latest in a long line of failed attempts by President Obama to appease rogue regimes at all cost.”
Should we call it the “Rubio Corollary” to Godwin’s Law that, when someone uses the word “appeasement,” they have automatically lost the argument?
? Martin
@Political Realism:
Nobody admires the Chinese government, but I don’t see WalMart going out of business any time soon.
srv
So, no one has seen a mountain lion in Kentucky since the Civil War. Guess what happens when one shows up?
Sherparick
@Political Realism: No, not the “soft on Communism” canard!!!. Obviously, you have been on a deep space expedition these last 25 years and missed the fact that the Soviet Union is no more and that People Republic of China is the new center for “laissez-faire” capitalism (particularly when it comes to pollution regulations). Or you are a troll, who I should not feed. Take your pick.
different-church-lady
@Betty Cracker:
That’s my shtick, you get your own.
schrodinger's cat
@Betty Cracker:
I thought they were snark, naked mopping and Tunch worship.
Roger Moore
@Sherparick:
Real commitment can give a small minority control on their one issue if the majority isn’t particularly committed to the other view. It’s the same basic logic that gives the NRA so much power when it comes to guns; their view may be an unpopular minority, but as long as they’re the only ones who will let it decide their votes, they have a lot of electoral power.
Sherparick
@Elizabelle: Also, don’t forget, Republicans are all for human rights, except when we want to torture someone. Also, no political prisoners, except when we call them terrorists and can hold them indefinitely (after sufficient torture proves they don’t know anything.)
Jacel
A major ‘international’ initiative? At this point, or for many years, is there ANY other country besides the United States that has restrictions regarding Cuba?
D58826
Well the GOP is in full insult mood over the Cuba decision. Funny I remember when Tricky Dick and later Ronulus I both went to China, the democrats had no problem with it.
Sherparick
@schrodinger’s cat: I thought they were “snark, Pittsburgh Steeler football, and Tunch worship.”
Origuy
@J R in WV:
Orbitz tells me that it doesn’t support flights to Cuba. I think there are only charter flights to Havana–no regularly scheduled ones.
Origuy
GQ lists the 20 craziest American politicians. Worth clicking on if only for the Loonie Tunes characters.
(H/T Juanita Jean)
Elizabelle
What a coup for Cuba.
And they didn’t even have to hack Sony to pull it off.
Bobby Thomson
@Sherparick: Forget it Jake, it’s taco.
Elizabelle
I wonder if Stephen Colbert regrets he’s leaving the air for as long as he is. So much material out there. So little time.
Is he effectively muzzled by the contractual switch between networks? I wish he could freelance.
In whatever persona.
Roger Moore
Just remember: this will all be forgotten in a couple of weeks when Obama announces that normalization of diplomatic relations is part of the deal we’ve just struck with Iran. That will make the freak-out over this look tiny and weak in comparison.
Violet
@Villago Delenda Est:
I love watching wingnut heads explode over the Pope. Hilarious.
Origuy
@Jacel:
Israel. That’s it.
catclub
@Origuy: what about montreal to havana? Or mexico city to havana? Or DC to Guantanamo – code red eye.
Elizabelle
C-Span just had Boomhauer from King of the Hill on the “oppose Cuba deal” call in line. I guess. Couldn’t hear 3 consecutive words laying out his reasons. Just bluster.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Roger Moore: Oooh. That’ll be like the 4th of July and New Year’s all in one.
Cheers,
Scott.
beltane
@Violet: They are actually reduced to complaining about the lack of democracy in the Vatican vs. the Republic of Italy. I think I’m going to make some popcorn now.
Origuy
@catclub: I was referring to direct flights from the US.
Mike J
@Judge Crater:
You say that like there are no tourists there. Every other country in the world already sends thousands of tourists there. It’s not like they don’t know what they’re missing.
LAC
@different-church-lady: apparently nitpick and do the “lead from behind-lead from the front” vague critique. Because why not?
Heliopause
So I got up out of bed here on the left coast, pondering whether to turn my TV on at all. It’ll just be a lot of bloviating shit about our shitty federal budget, our shitty intelligence services, the shitty world economy, our shitty presidential candidates. Or maybe they’ll decide that I need to know that Angelina Jolie is difficult and Tom Cruise has had a little work done. God, what’s the point.
So, anything happen today?
Sherparick
@Tom: As a what is called a “cafeteria Papist,” I can tell you from our point of view all Protestants, moderate to fundi, are “heretics.” They are Christians, but Christians on the road to Perdition because they are in rebellion against Holy Mother Church. Hence the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre. The short argument is about the authority of the Pope, Virgin Mary, Cult of Saints, and Liturgy of the Mass. For my Protestant sisters and brothers, the Pope is the Anit-Christ, the Virgin and Saints are idol worship, and the Mass is superstition (pot calling kettle black on that one all the way around). Hence we Papists are “idolators” and not true Christians. I have taken a more skeptical view of know what is true or not true since the last Christian who appears to have had a direct conversation with Christ himself was St. Paul, and that was after the Crucifixion on a certain road to Damascus, and no one has been able to reach Paul on the matter for 2,000 years (although he was certainly free with the advice when active), I always wonder where the certainty comes from. I believe a truce has been called in order for both to wage war against the liberals and to put women back in their place, the gays back in the closet, and exterminate the Muslims.
catclub
@Tom:
Missal or prayer book. Hymnal is extra and Baptists also use them. (Their version of course.)
Brian R.
Between the executive action on immigration reform, climate change deals with China, and now this, Obama is showing that he isn’t a lame duck.
If anything, he’s got senioritis and a sense of “fuck it, I’ll do what I want.”
Archon
Obama is a political breakthrough with Iran away from being remembered as one of America’s greatest foreign policy Presidents 40 years from now. (when all the bigots and haters die off)
Brian R.
@catclub:
No, we Catholics use hymnals.
scav
@Brian R.: Well, casts add a little exra energy to the kick when the duck stops giving a fuck about re-election.
Cervantes
@Political Realism:
Exactly.
Remember when Reagan severed diplomatic ties with the People’s Republic of China and imposed a trade embargo?
As has often been said, it is only through acute political realism that we can fully develop the capacity to recall such moral clarity.
Tractarian
@Betty Cracker:
I think you’re referring to my comment (in which I said people shouldn’t blow this out of proportion, because the embargo and travel ban remain and there is little prospect of Congress doing anything about it).
If so, you missed the point by about a mile. Certainly, you and other commenters should feel free to
spout off nonsensepontificate on issues about which you are ill-informed. That is the great thing about the internet.You shouldn’t, however, complain when someone points out that people are getting their facts wrong. Pointing out incorrect facts is, one might argue, even more necessary in a forum where the blowing of hot air is actively encouraged.
In other words, it’s a type of behavior which I’m sure you would approve of if it weren’t aimed at you.
different-church-lady
@Tractarian:
If I may butt in, I think she’s just snarking on a quite long-standing BJ trend. Your comment was just the thing that kicked off this particular snarkfest, rather than being the true object of the snark. In fact, it merely followed from my own snark, which was, in fact, an affirmation of your point disguised as snark.
Tractarian
“Political Realism” is almost surely DougJ, for those new to Balloon Juice
Villago Delenda Est
@Political Realism: Admire Castro? Where the fuck do you get THAT from?
As for the shitty grade Z movie star and the Polish Pope, it’s a shame they lived past puberty.
Villago Delenda Est
@Cervantes: The ironing. It’s overwhelming.
Betty Cracker
@Tractarian: Wrong by the same proverbial mile. But I’m glad your misinterpretation of a remark I made to another commenter who was not even you gave you a chance to get that off your chest!
different-church-lady
@Betty Cracker: Everyone’s so grumpy around here…
Villago Delenda Est
@D58826: Neither one was a ni*CLANG*.
Tree With Water
@Roger Moore: Go read today’s Charles Pierce (Esquire.com) for his take on Obama’s cage rattling. It’s heartening.
Tree With Water
@Brian R.: It makes me wonder what might have been, had the president been disabused of his illusions about republican party good will during his first administration.
Tree With Water
@Roger Moore: When I first laid eyes on the huge statue of Brigham Young in downtown Salt Lake, my father said, “Notice his hand is stretched out towards the bank across the street”. It was an old chestnut that I heard for the first time that day.
D58826
Sen. Mccain says that Obama’s Cuban policy is nothing more than the appeasement of autocratic dictators and thugs. Obviously McCain doesn’t view the leaders of Vietnam the same way. And wasn’t it Bush the lesser who normalized relations with Qaddafi? And Ronulus the Magnificent who cozed up the Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war. Oh well its OK if your a republican (and not being an n*clang helps)t
nellcote
@Political Realism:
Obama won Florida…both times.
Bobby Thomson
Taco’s just wrong.
LAC
@Tree With Water: or if we had people who voted instead of bitching. No telling what a democratic run house could have done by now.
PurpleGirl
@catclub: Actually all Protestants have a hymnal. The creation of the hymnal and what hymns, prayers and the liturgy to include has been the cause of amny church splits. Protestants, and especially fundamentalists, rely on the authority of scripture (the Bible) far more than the Catholic Church does. The RCs also rely on the writings of other church fathers and theologians.
ETA: Raised RC and lapsed pretty early on. In my mid-20s I became Lutheran and attended a Lutheran church for about 10 years. Then lapsed again to my own “equal opportunity deity worshipper” stance.
Gravenstone
@Bobby Thomson: In this context, I had hoped it was clear that I meant the prison complex at Gitmo, rather than the Naval Base in total.
SRW1
@Amir Khalid:
Are you one of these people who don’t mind putting their left sock on their right Foot?! Tsk, Tsk.
Jay C
@schrodinger’s cat:
Probably because said efforts rarely leave many, if any, survivors….
Cervantes
@Gravenstone: Not to worry: If it was clear to me, and it was, then I am sure it was clear to everyone.
Tractarian
Fair enough. You replied to different-church-lady, who was directly replying to me, so it was reasonable to think that you were addressing it to me. Whatevs.
Anyway, the NYT is now saying that Obama’s actions today “all but end the 1960 embargo”, so maybe I’m full of shit after all!
Patricia Kayden
@Elizabelle: Preach!! Hypocrisy at its best. To be honest, I don’t believe Republicans care about democracy anywhere on this planet, unless it’s to their advantage. Aren’t they big supporters of Putin despite his support for homophobia in Russia?
Patricia Kayden
@Brian R.: That must be pissing off Republicans who thought he’d crawl into a corner and spend the rest of his presidency curled up in a fetal position. Nah — he’s kicking butt and getting stuff done. He hasn’t lost his swagger.
dance around in your bones
@Violet: Yes, happily I am! But just for a few more days….but I have the option to come back once the college daughter goes back to school.
It’s been a fun time ;)
AxelFoley
@Tree With Water:
Why do folks still spout this nonsense? Obama was in the Senate. He knew what these assholes were all about, but he ran on Hope and Change and trying to work with the other side.
AxelFoley
@LAC:
BOOM!