How many years of openness have to go by w/o democratization in Cuba for that policy to become stupid, irrational, too? Just askin.
— Charles Lane (@ChuckLane1) December 18, 2014
Anyway, violations of human rights in Cuba not "events that took place before most of us were born"
They're going on today, yesterday
— Charles Lane (@ChuckLane1) December 17, 2014
Chuck Lane is very het up about the Cuba policy shift. Oddly enough, I don’t remember him or the WaPo editorial board calling for torture prosecutions in the US.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
ah, Chuck Lane. Another of Marty Peretz’s fair-haired boys who continue to infect our politics, and whom the self-aggrandizing martyrs-by-proxy of TNR probably want to pretend never happened.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@efgoldman: and Saudi Arabia, also, too
Kryptik, A Man Without a Country
Shades of ‘don’t change horses midstream’ in 2004. Apparently, we just need to clap and wish for it to succeed for it to happen.
Baud
Until the Republicans take credit for it.
beltane
The only way to address these concerns is to limit diplomatic relations to the Scandinavian countries.
JDM
How many years, Charles? Tell you what, let’s give it half as long as the proven failure of a policy that it’s replacing and see how it’s done then. Til then, shut up. Deal?
dmsilev
Fifty-ish would be a reasonable number I think. Or, if you’d prefer, that’s 100 Friedman Units (one tenth of a kiloFriedman).
dedc79
I’d like to see him answer his own question.
Suffern ACE
Jeez. I guess two days is long enough. This new policy sucks. It has failed by every measure. Let’s reverse course.
Brendan in Charlotte
@dedc79: unfortunately, he only asks rhetorical questions
Marcion
Jesus Christ why can’t anyone just acknowledge the double standard. Compare how we treat Vietnam to how we treat Cuba. You know, the dirty commies we were actually at war with. Now they’re about as friendly with us as those other dirty commies in China. Cuba is just so, so much more eviler than those regimes that they deserve the freeze-out treatment while China and Vietnam don’t. Except.. they aren’t. I mean I haven’t heard anything like the ‘selling-prisoners-organs’ story from the PRC come out of Cuba, and they certainly don’t seem worse than other dictatorships we have relations with in say, the Middle East. So really… what are we trying to accomplish there?
max
Oddly enough, I don’t remember him or the WaPo editorial board calling for torture prosecutions in the US.
#! cat Republicans_Torture|John_Yoo_Legalese > Fluffy_Pillows_For_Terrorists!.txt
Easy!
max
[‘It’s a scientific miracle!’]
jl
Since other commenters have covered the ‘unsavory human right violating US allies’ angle, I’ll tackle
” How many years of openness have to go by w/o democratization in Cuba for that policy to become stupid, irrational, too? Just askin. ”
HoKay… how about 2014 – 1961 = 54 (give or take a few months)? Or, heck I am feeling generous tonight and will spot them a few years. How about 54 / 2 = 27?
I think the Cuba commie ruling class will be forced to open up its society more completely and quickly than the ruling class in Saudi Arabia, and there will certainly be substantial change within 25 years. I may even live to see it! Good luck with that much happening in Saudi Arabia, though if I can stay healthy, would be fun to try to live that long.
Chuck Lane is sad. Spews weak nonsense BS even when he doesn’t have to.
Villago Delenda Est
Chuckles will get over it. They all will.
Fucktard.
Villago Delenda Est
@beltane: I suggest we impose an embargo on Grand Fenwick as well.
Frankensteinbeck
@Marcion:
I’d say @efgoldman covers it pretty well. ‘It impoverished a small, essentially defenseless country only 90 miles from the richest country in the world’ seems like the big one to me. Republicans like being bullies. They get really pissed when you tell them they should stop kicking the weak. Like, REALLY pissed.
raven
@Marcion: It’s them plantain eatin Marcion’s that keep this shit going.
jl
@Villago Delenda Est: Get that pundit a Cuban ceegar and light it up in front of his nose with a 100 dollar bill. See how long he can hold out.
Not sure whether he smokes ceegars, but he seems like the type.
Too bad one of my cigar smoking teabagger uncles did not live long enough to see this day. I wonder what he would do… no I don’t have too. He would be on the internet shopping right now. He sure didn’t mind smoking the ones I smuggled home from overseas trips (heh heh, just joking there if any customs workers reading this).
Villago Delenda Est
@efgoldman: Well, they’ll move on to newer, fresher tragedies perpetrated by the ni*CLANG* in the White House.
brent
Of course the answer to Chuck’s question is plain enough, If our goal is democritization and if, after a few years, lets say a decade or two, there seems to be no progress towards that goal, we can say that our policy is probably not especially effective towards that goal. At that point, we can then make decisions about what might be a better policy. Just as we have done here.
That seems like an obvious answer. On the other hand, Chuck’s preferred answer seems to be that we should never reassess. At no point should we question whether whatever policy we have in place is actually doing what we would like. That would seem to be the implication of his typically passive aggressive posturing inquisitive. Unless I am misreading him and what he is actually saying is that we shouldn’t care about the effectiveness of the policy with respect to any particular goal. Thats the only other implication I can see offhand.
raven
@efgoldman: My old man was enlisted in WWII and, after he got his degree, went back in the Navy as an officer. When the Cuban gig went down he tried to go active and they told him he was too old. He resigned his commission.
Anne Laurie
@efgoldman: They’ll never stop blaming Obama. But the first MacDonalds/KFC/WalMart franchises open in Havana, it’ll be like our trading partner Vietnam… The Free Hand of the Unfettered Marketplace! (fapfapfap)
dedc79
@Brendan in Charlotte: I know DougJ doesn’t do political posts anymore, but I hope he still trolls Charles Lane.
Gvg
The divestiture policy over s Africa did do some good. But we have no influence over Cuba now. We might later if we build some carrots first. that is assuming we still care about human rights violations in a decade or so. we have some fairly serious problems at home that undermine any positive influence we can have right now. Put on trial some of our torturing evil doers then whack back some of the racists policies and police instead of what amounts to murder of some of our own, then maybe we can talk about Cuba. Until then I am pretty uninterested.
wonder why he thinks Cuba’s such a serious issue? bet he has an ax to grind.
Obama pleases me by an attitude of clean up as many messes as you can so the remaining pile doesn’t look so intimidating and impossible. it’s how I clean house or,get my job done and I appreciate it. Cuba wasn’t even a big mess on the radar and I don’t think there was any pressure to get it fixed. I wouldn’t have criticized him out of office for not getting it done, but nonetheless it has nagged around the edges of my awareness since the 80’s.
from time to time this administration just announces they got something done. Osama bin Laden was also kind of a nice surprise and negotiating chemical weapons disposals things like that. Nice Work
schrodinger's cat
@beltane: What and forget everything that the Vikings did?
Villago Delenda Est
Oh, come on, Cole.
IOKIYAR covers this pretty well, I think.
raven
@schrodinger’s cat: Not to speak of the Viqueens!
Villago Delenda Est
@Gvg:
A specter is haunting the Village.
Mike in NC
Fuck Chuck.
Eric U.
this Cuba thing might be a problem for me. I have a rule that I don’t smoke unless I can buy a cuban cigar
Omnes Omnibus
@Eric U.: Demand an illegal Cuban cigar in the future.
Baud
@Eric U.:
I blame Obama . . . for my emphysema.
Howard Beale IV
Charles Lane can eat a bag of heavily salted dicks, and will still be able to speak.
Enough. Here’s hoping the Koch’s stopped clock will actually do some good and silence the anti-Cuban wing of the GOP. Hell, maybe our doctors can learn something from the Cuban medical system.
beltane
In ten year’s time, many of these same bloviating Villagers will be proud owners of Cuban seaside vacation compounds.
Villago Delenda Est
@Howard Beale IV:
The problem isn’t so much the doctors, as it is the parasites who infest the medical system feeding on the illness and injury of others.
jl
@Gvg: Not sure whether I remember correctly, but I think more and more economically powerful and influential democracies were boycotting South Africa towards the last days of apartheid.
That is sure not happening with Cuba, more like the opposite.
US probably looms very large for Cuba in terms of economic impact, but then the US has a history there which is still counterbalance.
Specialed5000
I much prefer this Charles Lane:
Villago Delenda Est
@efgoldman: I’m looking forward to Canadians taking legal action against the US for properties confiscated from their ancestors circa 1783.
Specialed5000
http://m.imdb.com/name/nm0485272/
Cervantes
@efgoldman:
Got it in one.
Matt McIrvin
Just saw my first firebaggerish person complaining that evil Obama is plotting to ruin Cuba.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Matt McIrvin: Jeremy Scahill?
Laertes
If the embargo was about human rights, why did it begin in 1961?
Laertes
@efgoldman:
Go to what court? American courts don’t have jurisdiction, and Cuban courts are going to enforce Cuban law, which presumably smiled upon the transfers. No, courts won’t work. However.
The traditional remedy when a new government seizes your property and distributes it to their supporters is to beg the Americans to overthrow that government and replace it with a terror-and-torture regime. (Or simply restore the previous terror-and-torture regime.) It often works. It didn’t for the Cubans, so that’s pretty much their tough luck.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
OMG, I just heard that there are group of people being held for years in Cuba at some kind of military base without do process and are tortured regularly!!! Why does Raul Castro allow this outrage to happen?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Can someone really be this stupid?
Does Lane really think they are talking about Raul Castor, or that ’60s era psychological profiles are more of a pseudo science than anything else? Not to mention that profile fits about any successful national leader,..
Jamey
These people are so freaked out by the actual end of the Cold War. Now, with Cuber free, the fucktard Right and its enablers no longer have a fall-back plan, should they run out of ideological enemies to trot out when Christian Dominion or American Exceptionalism are questioned.
Yeah, I think it’s that simple. Also: Knee-Grow President… so there’s that, too.
wilfred
I don’t recall many people on here, or anywhere else, insisting on prosecutions. I don’t agree with Lane, but how is that an argument against what he’s saying? Is it just a lack of consistency?
Lurking Canadian
Fifty years of the old policy was not enough to remove Fidel and Raul from power.
But I guaran-goddamn-tee that after fifth years of the new policy, Raul and Fidel will be out of power. Obama FTW!
Sherparick
@efgoldman: I think Mr. Lane and others of his ilk find Cuba’s small size and long defiance of the U.S. an afront to U.S. imperial dignity. There are many worse regimes in the world (China, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc.) that we deal with, trade with, and in some cases give aid, but Fidel (not so much Raul) Castro’s raison d’etre for much of the last 55 years has been sticking his thumb in the U.S.’s eye and getting away with it. It is amusing to see Chuck and all these other Conservatives go on about “human rights” and “police state” only a day after they after they were celebrating U.S. torture and indefinite detentions. Really, you must have zero self-awareness if you are a Conservative.
Matt
Well Chuckles, since you asked, I’d say it’s pretty unfair if the number isn’t pretty close to the FIFTY FOUR FUCKING YEARS that we’ve given your preferred policy. Whinging about this will keep the wingnut welfare presses hot for years after you die – or as they call it in your circles, “going to work with Dick Cheney at his new gig”.
Bruce K
@Villago Delenda Est: Don’t mess with the Duchy, man. They’ve got the Q-bomb, and I’m not sure they’ve forgiven us for the whole Pinot Grand Enwick thing.
Sherparick
@wilfred: Also, I think Mr. Lane is a bit hasty in judging Obama’s policy a failure after one day because Fidel and Raul did not vanish into smoke. Obviously, the other policy was working so well (NOT!!) and was considered absurd by about every other nation in the world. Again, what drives conservatives and imperialists like Lane nuts about Cuba is that defiance, the lack of kowtowing to the mighty U.S., that they expect from small states, particularly small states with which we had a semi-colonial relationship with such as Cuba, Venezuela, and lran.
priscianus jr
“Oddly enough, I don’t remember him or the WaPo editorial board calling for torture prosecutions in the US.”
Then let me break it into bite-sized pieces for you:
Marxist-Leninist commie torture is bad. Western, democratic values torture is good.