Reader J wants you to know that George Will is Media Matters’ “Misinformer of the Year”. Seems like an understatement to me – “Misinformer of the Decade” would be more appropriate. Related to that, is there any pundit who wears a bow tie who isn’t a jackass?
Open Thread
by @heymistermix.com| 142 Comments
This post is in: Open Threads
RepubAnon
The jackass anti-defamation league objects to their members being compared to bowtie-wearing pundits.
Kryptik, A Man Without a Country
The only two people who I can think of in general who wore bowties regularly and weren’t douches are Bill Nye and the 11th Doctor
Cervantes
@RepubAnon:
You ain’t seen nothing yet. Wait ’til you hear from the Pandit Anti-Defamation League.
Linda Featheringill
@Kryptik, A Man Without a Country: Yeah, Bill Nye is cool.
Bob In Portland
Robert Parry draws a good picture of what I’ve been railing about here for the last year. If you’re capable of a little self-examination, read him.
patrick II
Does Charles Osgood count?
MattF
Will has always been a political hack. He’s always been active and deeply involved in Republican politics. His job is to supply talking points for wingers, and he does just that.
KG
we’re only half way through the decade (if you count 2010), Chuck Johnson is going to make a push for the decade title if he gets a few more years before somebody hits him with a libel suit.
Linnaeus
So, I got my health care insurance situation worked out for next year. Which is nice.
I was pretty cranky about it last night, since I got conflicting and confusing information from the state exchange and from the navigator whom I went to for help when I couldn’t get through to the state exchange telephone help line (after multiple tries – it kept hanging up on me or keeping me on hold). I can understand why some folks have been very frustrated with the new ACA health care regime. We do need to keep working to improve it.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: And not a word in there about the actual desires of the Ukrainian people.
There was a thread here a day or two ago about how much of the white criticism of the black “community” is driven by the belief that black Americans cannot think for themselves, and have no agency. That is also the underlying theme of everything you post here, and every link that you put up in regard to Ukraine. The Ukrainian people may actually want something, independent of what Russia or the US want. Maybe it’s time for a little self-examination on your part.
With that, I’m off the grid to spend time with flesh-and-blood people.
Cervantes
@Kryptik, A Man Without a Country:
FDR?
Paul Samuelson?
Archibald Cox?
Paul Simon (the senator)?
C. Everett Koop?
Orville Redenbacher?
Marx (Groucho and Karl)?
Hercule Poirot?
The Cat in the Hat?
Amir Khalid
Before I forget: Saya ucapkan Selamat Hari Natal kepada semua tukang komen di Balloon Juice.
Big ole hound
It’s not the bowtie that gives him the phony persona, it’s those godawful “rugs”. If your old enough to be bald, own it.
jeffreyw
@Amir Khalid: And a Salma Hayek to you, too!
Roger Moore
@Amir Khalid:
Merry Christmas to you, too!
JCJ
@Amir Khalid:
Terima kasih!
(At least that’s what google translate tells me thank you is in Malay.)
I remember a few years ago I was in Trang Province in the southern part of Thailand and the hotel had channels from Malaysia and there were Christmas greetings from the King of Malaysia
Linnaeus
@Amir Khalid:
Terima kasih.
Villago Delenda Est
@Big ole hound: We’re looking at you, The Donald and Tribble-head Paul.
Villago Delenda Est
@Amir Khalid: Mele Kalikimaka!
Villago Delenda Est
@Bob In Portland: Gospodin Romanov, defender of the helpless and weak Russian people.
Gag me with a spoon.
Bobby B.
There’s a comedy bit I remember that ended with “I’m a journalist!” “You’re wearing a bow-tie. This is show biz.”
Howard Beale IV
@KG: Notice since the rise of the Ginger Avenger, The Derp master himself has been pushed aside.
trollhattan
If you close your eyes and filter out the normally charming Aussie accent, the Standard Republican Talking Points come drilling through like the world’s dullest dentist drill.
Really sucks that both Canada and Australia are presently being ruined by winger PMs.
Mnemosyne
Tonight is either pizza or Trader Joe’s orange chicken and The Shop Around the Corner. I still don’t really like Margaret Sullavan in that movie, but my deep love for Felix Bressart as Pirovitch makes up for Sullavan.
And, of course, Pirovich’s response when Kralik asks how much it costs to live for just him and Mrs. Pirovich without the children: “Why fool yourself?”
Howard Beale IV
@Gin & Tonic: That’s one of the reasons why I have BBC World Service in my car and take a dim view of links from rt.com and any links BfP posts-both have axes to grind.
WereBear
I think George WIll should get some kind of lifetime achievement award.
In Dragon (Dictation) news, I am approaching the seventh level. This is when I can go back and correct my errors, using only voice commands. I’ve also added vocabulary words to my profile. I have found that it is already speeding up my workflow, I can knock off a blog post in half the time it takes me to type it. I still need to go back and tidy up, fix typos and move things around, but I am stunned and surprised at how well it works!
Corner Stone
Was FBI wrong on North Korea?
“LOS ANGELES — Cybersecurity experts are questioning the FBI’s claim that North Korea is responsible for the hack that crippled Sony Pictures. Kurt Stammberger, a senior vice president with cybersecurity firm Norse, told CBS News his company has data that doubts some of the FBI’s findings.”
“Sony was not just hacked, this is a company that was essentially nuked from the inside,” said Stammberger.
Luthe
Just so you all know, Cole has become minorly famous on Tumblr.
SiubhanDuinne
@patrick II:
Didn’t Paul Simon (Senator, not singer) always wear a bow tie?
Pappenheimer
Amir Khalid (if you’re still on)
Terimah kaseh, sama-sama
Howard Beale IV
@Corner Stone:
This is the only thing that makes any sense about the whole SPE debacle-they knew exactly where to go and what to access.
Typical attacks are usually DDoS in nature and most systems usually deploy defenses in depth until you successfully penetrate and install a traffic sniffer to capture – even then, you have to know what it is you’re looking at in order to successfully exploit it.
I suspect any North Korea address that appears in the tools was just a stopping-off point of a compromised North Korean server.
Iowa Old Lady
@WereBear: Has it affected how you compose? Do you work from notes?
trollhattan
@SiubhanDuinne: Made famous via Al Franken’s Paul Simon imitation, which is more meta than I can easily manage most days.
Mnemosyne
@Howard Beale IV:
Disgruntled ex-employees always sounded the most plausible to me.
True story: I used to work for a computer catalog company in the South Bay (Los Angeles) which shall remain nameless because they’re still in business. They decided that they wanted to move their warehouse operations to Nashville to be near the main FedEx hub, so they abruptly fired all of the warehouse employees and brought in temp staff to get them through the three months prior to the move.
A few weeks later, a FedEx truck was hijacked after it left the warehouse and a whole lot of expensive computer equipment was stolen. I don’t think they ever caught who did it, but everyone was pretty convinced it was some of the people who had been fired.
Never underestimate the ability of a pissed-off ex-employee to fuck your business up.
Mike in NC
@Corner Stone: Inside job or elaborate hoax to publicize a crappy movie?
Just Some Fuckhead
OMFG, James Bond followed by George Will. This blog needs to seriously consider restructuring as a nursing home.
Villago Delenda Est
@Corner Stone: I suspect, too, that this was an inside job. NK provides wonderful cover for it, and SPE is of course more than happy to place the blame outside the organization. The US government is more than happy to blame NK too…they’re a terrific villain, because let’s face it, the NK government is composed of assholes.
trollhattan
@Mnemosyne: A-yep. I’m likewise suspicious of NK’s ability to ferret out and leak so many embarrassing emails from what must be a massive trove.
OzarkHillbilly
@Kryptik, A Man Without a Country: Paul Simon D-IL first a Rep, then a Senator. A good man.
Mike in NC
George Will, like most conservative media blowhards, has been on the Koch brothers’ payroll for many years.
trollhattan
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I want you and your dungarees off of my dwarf tall fescue, forthwith!
Mnemosyne
@Mike in NC:
Not a hoax, because Sony Pictures is ruining business relationships right and left in their desperation to get it into a few theaters and on VOD so they can get some revenue from it before the end of the year:
“The Interview” Release to Deepen Rift Between Sony, Major Exhibitors
Annie, Sony’s big holiday release, made $16 million in its first weekend. They. Are. Fucked. if they don’t book some additional revenue before 12/31.
Amir Khalid
@Mike in NC:
That’s the least plausible theory I’ve come across. It posits that Sony Pictures is deliberately torpedoing its business rep just to promote one movie.
Phylllis
@Mnemosyne: I love his delight at purposefully getting the BiL a present that will be duly hated. Heh.
OzarkHillbilly
@Amir Khalid: Bah Humbug! For some reason I can’t find a Malay translation.
patrick II
@SiubhanDuinne:
Yes, he did. But I don’t think a senator is a pundit. Charles Osgood comments on the news — but only good or entertainment news, so I think he might not qualify either.
Karen in GA
Open thread? Iggy wishes everyone a merry — well, no, not quite.
Mnemosyne
@trollhattan:
Yep. And especially emails that will were particularly embarrassing in front of an American audience that made Angelina Jolie, Denzel Washington, etc. into stars.
It’s the release of those particular emails that made me suspicious of the supposed NK connection. I really don’t think that a foreign hacker, no matter how plugged into American culture via the internet, would be able to pick out the emails that would be the most embarrassing to be exposed in front of a US audience.
Well, maybe our friend Amir. ;-)
Amir Khalid
@OzarkHillbilly:
We Malaysians are such nice people, we don’t have the words to express a negative sentiment like that.
Howard Beale IV
@Mnemosyne:
When I see stories about how H1-B’s are being brought in and trained by the very people that are going to be let go, I’m really surprised that there isn’t a massive walk-out and a lot of noise in the local press.
Some companies try to go down that road, and then the offshore firm comes back and says: “This system is more complex than specified.”
And when it comes to any large corporation, I always operate under the guise of: “watch what they say, and watch what they do.”
And take heed of what they do.
Mnemosyne
@Phylllis:
“Kralik! She’s dunking.”
“Well, why shouldn’t she dunk?”
And, of course, the classic “I want your honest opinion” sequence with Pirovitch sneaking back up to the storeroom as soon as he hears the phrase.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: The Ukrainian people are not a single mass. In fact, considering the civil war in the east it is pretty obvious that a lot of Ukrainians are very opposed to the fascists in Ukraine.
The US brought forth this coup. I said last spring that this country would be a bankrupt basket case, and the fascists would have a lot of blood on their hands. And this wasn’t some great knowledge I possess about Ukrainian history. It’s because of US history. Ukraine is Iraq. Ukraine is El Salvador. Honduras. Afghanistan. So take pride in the unnecessary deaths and the parades. We all love a parade. There is a freedom in marching together. A freedom that frees the mind.
I remember in ’72 being taught, “I wanna go to Vietnam. I want to kill me a Charlie Cong.” Some of the people in my basic training unit actually got to go to Vietnam and kill a Charlie Cong.
Let us call on the Great Bandera to come down from the sky and lead us to victory against the Moskal Jewry. Onward. If western Ukrainians want to kill eastern Ukrainians, then by all means let them. Just don’t facilitate the killing to give the US an edge in the European LNG market.
Bob In Portland
Here is another article which is close to my beliefs, from Salon.
The Cold War does not serve the interests of most Ukrainians or most Americans. Enjoy being suckered again, good neo-liberals.
OzarkHillbilly
@Amir Khalid: I know. That’s why I hate you. ;-)
Phylllis
@Mnemosyne: And the discussion about bonuses: “As long as the envelope’s closed, you’re a millionaire.”
Bob In Portland
@Corner Stone: I’m pretty sure the hacking was done by a lone nut employee at Fort Detrick who had a grudge against a sorority.
trollhattan
Say, does BIP know that Russia has hired Witness #40?
Like the man said: “There is no izvestia in Pravda and there is no pravda in Izvestia.”
Bob In Portland
Now we have to pick up some fresh Oregon crabs for dinner tonight. Mmmm. With melted butter.
Tree With Water
Will has appeared like clockwork over the people’s airwaves* for a third of a century. This, in spite of being busted pimping on-air for Ronald Reagan in 1980. A corporate lickspittle, guaranteed access to The Tube.
The answer to a single question can serve to separate real journalists from media whores: do you believe that FOX practices journalism?
*[ha-ha}
Bob In Portland
@trollhattan: I wouldn’t jump on it yet. I would wait, like we’ve been waiting for the tapes from the control tower that sent that airliner over a war zone. Or did you forget that too?
burnspbesq
I’ve always though Harvie Wilkinson was a pretty good judge, and this certainly does nothing to change my mind.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2014/12/north_carolina_abortion_ultrasound_decision_quotes_from_judge_wilkinson.2.html
Bob In Portland
@trollhattan: “All the news that’s fit to print.” And guess who decides that for the NY Times, my fellow seeker of truth?
Have you been enjoying those anti-Russian articles written by the same cast that cowrote those Judith Miller articles about WMDs in Iraq? You know, the ones that could strike London within 45 minutes of launch. Stored right next to the yellowcake. Have you figured out what the last 35 years in Afghanistan have been about yet? Think hard. It’s right in front of you.
Bob In Portland
@trollhattan: Some history: Nugan Hand Bank.
Grumpy Code Monkey
With respect to the Sony hack, I humbly present The Curious Case of the TV Attorney and Twitter.
Short version – the guys at Popehat successfully troll Greta van Sustern, along with WaPo, Newsweek, and a few other outlets with a parody Twitter account. Much hilarity ensues.
Tree With Water
The NY times is reporting:
JONATHAN MARTIN and ASHLEY PARKER 12:50 PM ET
“With crime plummeting and the party struggling among minority voters, some Republicans have embraced efforts to reduce the number of black men in prison and overhaul the criminal justice system…”.
To which I say, “that’s mighty white of them”.
Cacti
George Will has long been proof that if you wear glasses and a bowtie, too many people will assume you have something intelligent to say.
Mnemosyne
@burnspbesq:
From most of the stories I’ve heard, most women who get very, very bad news about their pregnancy first hear it as an “Uh-oh” from the ultrasound technician. I can’t even imagine how devastating it would be to be forced to look at and hear each detail of why the fetus won’t survive couched in a speech about why she shouldn’t end the pregnancy.
Steeplejack
@WereBear:
I was very late to the threads last week where you were considering Dragon. I’m glad you got it and are happy with it. It has worked tremendously well for a friend of mine, a documentary filmmaker who has used it in some oral-history book projects. She films or just audio-records interviews with people and then plays the audio through Dragon to get a rough transcript. She has to go in and edit the results with Word or something, but it’s still miles ahead of the bad old days of transcribing from scratch.
WereBear
@Iowa Old Lady: It’s actually easier to draft, because I get rolling and don’t get sidetracked by editing the way it is with the keyboard.
I do go back and correct words, which is part of the training process, but it seems to be a definite brake on the bad habit of editing while composing. They are using different modules in the brain and will grind the gears.
My notes are only a few lines; I’m not a big outliner once I’m underway.
Steeplejack
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I thought it was structured as a
nursing homeassisted-living center, what with all the shut-ins and special-needs trolls.WereBear
And know exactly how to do it.
Howard Beale IV
@WereBear: Indeed-especially if you’re in IT.
Howard Beale IV
@SiubhanDuinne: Indeed, he did.
Mike J
@Corner Stone:
Nukes require a bit of sophistication. The tools used were as crude as stone axes. It was amateur hour, but they used a wide variety of crappy kits to do it.
Howard Beale IV
@Mike J: Doesn’t matter if the tools were crude or sophisticated, the end result was a successful penetration-and that’s all that mattered in the end.
Peale
Thankfully I don’t have a reputation as an expert gift wrapper or I’d be upset by the results. C-, maybe a low C. It doesn’t reflect how I feel about my family. For the most part.
Maybe.
p.a.
@Bob In Portland: What’s your opinion on the NFL playoffs, or on, well, ANYTHING ELSE?
WereBear
@Steeplejack: I can imagine!
I intend to explore transcription later on. Right now I’m on vacation and can indulge in a great deal of Dragon training. But once I go back to work, I could spend much of my lunch hour dictating.
We’ll see, anyway!
different-church-lady
jl
@patrick II: Charles Osgood sounded a little misinformationy and wingnutty for awhile during Bush years when commenting on on politics and economics. Now he seems to stick to entertainment and science and technology. I read he decided to get the research he (or more probably his staff) does on science and technology vetted by people who know what they are doing.
Whatever you think about him (me: meh) I don’t think in same league of jackass as Will. But then, who is? Not many.
trollhattan
@Bob In Portland: @Bob In Portland:
Aww, merry HODOR!mas. Keep rogering that pullet. Given your limitless time and energies for advocating for the restoration of the glorious Soviet Union, I suggest prying yourself away from the keybpard and visiting their families to comfort them with your peculiar form of правда. They’ll welcome you as a liberator. Really.
Gian
@Bob In Portland:
Bob, are you still living in the UAE? I didn’t know there was a Portland there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Saeed_al-Sahhaf
marduk
@Bob In Portland:
From the guy who just cited Thomas Friedman as an authority on Ukraine? Really?
Corner Stone
@Mike in NC:
Either an insider blew them up or this is the worst PR job in the history of bad PR.
Corner Stone
@Mike J:
It was a nice cocktail. But someone knew where to start the ball.
Corner Stone
@Villago Delenda Est:
But why? Why is this admin happy to do so? I get why GWB’s admin would be eager. I thought this admin was supposed to be better.
Talking shit about NoKo makes no sense. Where’s the 11-D aspect?
Roger Moore
@trollhattan:
You forget, he’s on the Julian calendar. HODOR!mas isn’t until January 7th.
Mike J
@Howard Beale IV:
Stuxnet sat undetected for years and fucked things up the entire time. Of course they had a different motive.
Sophisticated attacks generally want to go unnoticed. Script kiddies want to pwn web sites and download files. The Sony hack was more like a terror attack than a military op. Military ops have an objective. Terror attacks want to make a lot of noise and scare people. They succeeded wildly at what they meant to do.
Tree With Water
@Cacti: That’s true. Luckily, there are so many more negative connotations associated with that look. It never has been– and never will be– a look that most can cultivate without acute embarrassment. I mean, if I had to choose between it and dressing like a cowboy for the rest of my life (cowboy hat, cowboy vest, cowboy boots), it would be no choice at all. Anything but wearing a bow tie with a spiffy sport coat.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Grumpy Code Monkey: OK, that’s hysterical.
trollhattan
@Grumpy Code Monkey:
Oh God, that’s perfect. Baby Jesus appreciates the birthday gift–better than myrrh.
Mnemosyne
@Mike J:
Except for the part where the hackers knew exactly what they were looking for, exactly where they would find it, and exactly what of the information they had would be the most damaging for them to release.
You’re thinking “terror” but I’m thinking “revenge.” Similar tactics, but not the same motive.
srv
@Just Some Fuckhead: But everything would be ok if Idris Elba wore a bowtie or starred in that sucky Bond franchise.
What’s ‘sheeple’ in War On Christmas speak?
trollhattan
@Roger Moore:
Ooohhh, great, still time to shop. Is ammo still the preferred gift?
Mnemosyne
@Mike J:
Here’s a story about Sony’s layoffs from March of this year. An interesting close to the story in this context:
Here’s a story from Fusion.net by someone who actually looked at what was posted online by the hackers. A lot of it is corporate and operational information about budgets, benefits and, yes, layoffs. Not exactly the kind of thing you would think random script kiddies would be interested in.
ETA: And probably not the kind of thing North Korea would be interested in, unless they wanted to open a movie studio.
satby
@Amir Khalid: on my Kindle so I have to keep it simple: Happy Christmas and best wishes for a happy and prosperous New Year.
Mustang Bobby
@Kryptik, A Man Without a Country: And Mr. Peabody.
Jerry O'Brien
The bow-tie question was about current pundits. So office-holders of the past and Time Lords are not implicated.
gocart mozart
Bill Nye
https://paulboylan.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/bill_nye.jpg
slag
My jaw dropped when I saw this bow-tied buffoon spouting his nonsense in the Roosevelt documentary. And then I remembered: PBS! Damned neocons everywhere.
gocart mozart
Also, this guy http://topcultured.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/bowtie1.jpg
Villago Delenda Est
@trollhattan: BiP is the classic “Useful Idiot.”
Villago Delenda Est
@Mnemosyne:
If Kim Jong Un can be tempted away from his Playstation, starting a movie studio might be the way to do it.
Cervantes
@Jerry O’Brien:
Originally, yes, but then the question was broadened.
Steeplejack
@Grumpy Code Monkey:
That’s epic—even better than DougJ-level trolling!
chopper
@Cervantes:
Nice try, but they’re the same guy.
chopper
Big meal for the family and in-laws. Grilled delicious chicken, corn and avocado salad, string beans and quiche.
rea
is there any pundit who wears a bow tie who isn’t a jackass?
Possibly we can make exceptions for special occasions?
Bob In Portland
@Villago Delenda Est: Ah, nothing like a Cold War on a cold Christmas eve. I presume ISIS gets a lump of coal in their stocking from you too.
Bob In Portland
@Villago Delenda Est: And you’re the classic idiot. Hope your neo-liberal Christmas brings you patriotic hate and misery around the world, dickhead.
Bob In Portland
@Roger Moore: As opposed to Merry “We Torture People”-mas. Ho ho ho, you little neo-liberals. May your embrace of fascism bring pain to people all around the world.
Bob In Portland
@trollhattan: That’s what Obama and Congress are sending to Ukraine.
Bob In Portland
@p.a.: @trollhattan: But, of course, I’m not supporting the restoration of the Soviet Union.
However, there is a country that’s been waging wars for my entire lifetime, bringing death and misery around the world, wars based on lies. Generally, corporate interests benefit from this belligerent militarism.
So, you are essentially accusing me of what our country is doing. That makes you either a hypocrite or a longtime cave-dweller, albeit, one with an internet connection.
Bob In Portland
@marduk: @marduk: Except that I don’t recall ever citing Thomas Friedman as an expert on anything. Perhaps you’d like to provide a link. I just linked to a Robert Parry story that rips Krugman’s current anti-Russian pieces, and I believe Friedman was mentioned in it. Not positively.
So, marduk, before you realize that you owe me an apology for misrepresenting me, why don’t you READ the whole article and not just look at the pictures.
Thanking you in advance for your eventual evolution on this, which should be in a few years.
Mike in NC
@Bob In Portland: Are you familiar with the writings of General Smedley Butler concerning American actions in Latin America in the 1920s and 30s?
Bob In Portland
@Corner Stone: Part of the Asia pivot?
Bob In Portland
@Gian: Funny how many people like to invent backstories about me. I was born in the USA, just up the road from where Bruce Springsteen was born. I was against the Vietnam War, I was drafted. While I was in I became a race relations instructor for the US Army in New England. After I got out I continued to oppose US militarism right here in my country.
Admit it, chucklehead, you probably cheered during Shock and Awe. Look at the pretty lights!
Bob In Portland
@Corner Stone: Also, the President hasn’t really been in charge of foreign policy since JFK was assassinated. Sometimes a President may agree (usually the Republican ones) and sometimes the President has a heavy heart about the mass murder done in our name. But the President doesn’t run our foreign policy. I know it’s a hard concept to understand. After all, you probably got the same lesson about the three branches of government back in grammar school as the rest of us got. But there’s more to how our country is run.
Bob In Portland
@Mike in NC: Of course. And if you look closely enough you’ll find Walkers and Bushes among the plotters whom Butler exposed. They didn’t go to jail because they were too big to be charged with treason. You know, like the banks that were/are too big to fail.
Now the same money runs the country, only now the definition of treason has changed.
JMV Pyro
@Bob In Portland:
He’s not inventing a back story about you, he’s making fun of you. Like everyone else here.
Bob In Portland
@JMV Pyro: Well, that’s the Christmas spirit. Because there’s nothing like hippie punching for neo-liberals to celebrate the birth of the baby Jesus. May the IMF extend its death and destruction across the globe in your name, Pyro. May a drone blow up a wedding for you. May another union be crushed. May US-trained death squads protect the plantation owner. May another young man get shot in the streets of our cities by our defenders of law and order. May our police finally get the respect they demand and threaten to take. May Lockheed make more money. May Exxon and Chevron finally get that biggest pool of petroleum in the world under their Christmas tree.
I realize that ad hominems are the last refuge of incurious minds, but there is just so much information out there for you neo-liberals to reject and hide from.
gian
@Bob In Portland:
Sorry to disappoint. I cried when Bush ordered the weapons inspectors out because I knew war was inevitable.
I did laugh when turkey told Bush no to using their land to invade from.
As for the urgency of now you are supporting changing borders through violence.
JMV Pyro
@Bob In Portland:
Merry Christmas to you too buddy. You’ve brought this blog a lot of joy this year in your own special way and you should take pride in that.
Bob In Portland
@trollhattan: Oh, and troll, why are the Europeans refusing to allow Malaysia to participate in the investigation? I’m sure a you could offer the families of the victims some comfort, like telling them not to worry, the white people will take care of it.
gian
@JMV Pyro:
I didn’t know the British called Baghdad Bob Comical Ali until I read the wiki
Corner Stone
@Bob In Portland:
But why is NoKo a part of that? The US admin is not going to be able to demonize China for their propping up NK. Japan is already hated in much of that part of the world. I don’t get it.
Please explain to me why the Obama admin is happy to punch down on NK even when they have to know this is all bogus.
Bob In Portland
@gian: Borders mean nothing in the current world. We killed millions in Vietnam and never pretended to want to own that land. While we trained the death squads in Central America and President Reagan called them freedom fighters like the founders of our country, Reagan didn’t want to make Nicaragua a state. But then Britain never included India in Great Britain and managed to make misery for the masses there. We’ve spent 35 years killing in Afghanistan and while none of you seem to be able to formulate a reason for our extended stay there I can assure you no one ever thought to make it our 51st state.
I presume you think that Russia has invaded Ukraine to restore the territory of the Soviet Union. When I ask why Russia hasn’t absorbed Donbas or even recognized their independence from Ukraine all I get are shrugs. Donbas is different from Crimea. I’ve said before that if Russia wanted to conquer the whole of Ukraine it could manage it in hours or days. But it hasn’t. It’s supplied aid to Donbas to keep the swastika-wearing militias at bay, but it hasn’t claimed it or used its military to conquer Kiev. Stop shrugging and explain how, if Russia wants to reconquer eastern Europe that it isn’t.
That’s why I’ve suggested to the dear readers of Balloon Juice that they read the other side. I realize some of you don’t care as long as you get to punch a hippie, and a few of you still have those cold war shadows in the depths of your cortex that make you scared or guilty to stray far from our warmongering ways to try to understand our enemies.
But reading the other side of the story sometimes offers you insight not only to the others’ motives, but also to our own leaders’ desires.
I linked to two stories on this thread and none of you seemed to have read either of them. Certainly none of you have made a comment based on the contents of the articles.
So laugh at me. It’s done all of us so much good over the last fifty years to make light of our drift into fascism. May a drone kill some little children somewhere for you. What a package to open up tomorrow morning!
It seems that some of you think that history is a pendulum and that if you just keep out of the way and occasionally snark that you will escape being crushed and be around when it swings back towards social justice and peace. Not very wise, or very patriotic.
Bob In Portland
@Corner Stone: That was a joke. The US foreign policy is more of a grinding under the heels than a pivot, but one thing, no matter where we go to invade around the globe, is that we always manage to find a bad man who needs to be stopped. And if his WMDs aren’t enough then maybe he also screws with Hollywood propaganda.
JustRuss
Will used to show up in the local paper’s editorial page Every. Damn. Sunday. We got a new editor a few years ago, and Will vanished. We even get to hear from quasi-liberals once in a while. I so do not miss him.
Corner Stone
@Bob In Portland: Bob, you’re not helping me any here.
Bob In Portland
@Corner Stone: If you expect me to know the exact reason why the US is messing with the internet again, this time with North Korea, I have no specific answers for you. Maybe someone in Foggy Bottom thought that Americans were going to get too much of that peace on earth crap and wanted a little hate directed out into the world to tide us over the holidays.
Corner Stone
@Bob In Portland: Ok, fine. NK is the next bastard who isn’t our bastard. Now what?
We’re not going to invade. China will cross the parallel to defend their buffer zone as they have done for decades, if not millennia. NK has nothing we want. If China isn’t the ultimate pressure point, and I have to go out on a limb and say it is not, then who gives one tiny shit what NK does to fuck with just about anybody except our troops in South Korea?
We know damn good and well that state sponsored hacks by NK did not get Sony PE. So why are we saying they did?
Bob In Portland
@Howard Beale IV: I listen to the BBC just about every night. I like the accents, but if you think that the BBC doesn’t have their axes to grind you’re sorely mistaken.
And, of course, sources inside Russia are grinding axes. Some people think that one side of an argument is enough, some are afraid to listen to the other side. Are you afraid the Ruskies or Robert Parry or Salon will cloud your mind? After all, it was Parry who spilled the beans on Iran-contra and the drug routes out of Latin America, but hey we’ve almost forgotten that. Cowardice is not a strength, Howard, it’s a weakness.
Bob In Portland
@Corner Stone: Why did did our government lie to us about invading Afghanistan to catch bad man Saddam?
Ultimately, someone makes money, and China is going to be a target if they stick with Russia, which is what they appear to be doing. When an empire wages war for fifty years every problem looks like it can be solved by aggression. I agree that North Korea is relatively harmless and not a threat to us. But if, in the long run, South Korea gets its energy from Russia and its major trading partner becomes China, not unimaginable in the long run, then the empire is threatened on its eastern edges.
I’ve got nothing more specific than that. It bears watching.
Corner Stone
@Bob In Portland:
China has already surpassed Russia and the old USSR if you consider contracts and relationships across the ME and all over Africa. There’s nothing we can do about that. Or proliferation of Chinese influence in realpolitik. We’re not going to drop their energy infrastructure, or make any overtly aggressive warlike move against China. And if we Stuxnet them (in any form) then it will be on like fucking Donkey Kong and lead to WWIII in a way that isn’t under the surface any longer.
China has been running a cold war against us for two decades (at least) now by manipulating their currency controls. Our rather tepid shot across the bows on solar cell tariffs is not an entree into stomping on their im/ex dick.
Somebody has to fucking tell me WTF NoKo has to do with any god damned thing, just about now. I blame Obama.
Fuck SPE.
Bob In Portland
Howard Beale, here is an article about American foreign policy from October in Salon. The author was a bureau chief for the International Herald Tribune in the 80s and he wrote for The New Yorker. He may or may not be here to cloud your mind with Communist lies, or whatever you’re afraid of, but you might want to understand why others recognize what I’ve been seeing in Ukraine. Really. Try it. First one free. What are you, a scaredy cat?
Bob In Portland
@Corner Stone: Keep looking. You know, fucking with the second biggest nuclear power is not without risk either, but the US seems to have no problem with that. At some point the US will find out that war doesn’t work. Maybe Foggy Bottom will rediscover diplomacy.
Corner Stone
@Bob In Portland:
Everyone outside of Russia can see we’re destroying Putin with the sanctions. I’m not sure what he thinks he is seeing. Panic buying of real estate in London, Paris, Tokyo and parts of the US by the Russo oligarchs isn’t exactly confidence inspiring. I’m surprised we haven’t yet learned that a Russian consortium has surpassed Ted Turner as the largest private landowner in America.
Putin isn’t going to do shit. Because what can he do? He can’t race tanks across the Fulda Gap. He can’t sell his LNG on the black market to escape the crushing sanctions. He’s going to keep selling LNG to China and Pakistan? Great! He’s going to keep backing Assad? Great! Meddling in Iran? Great!
When it gets down to nut cutting time, Putin is not going to go hot. He’ll be like that dude in The Mummy where the flesh eating beetles subsume him.
Bob In Portland
@Corner Stone: And the US is not going to go hot over Ukraine. They’ll send weapons and maybe some guys from whatever they call Blackwater (that should be in past tense), but if the clowns in Kiev overplay their hand in eastern Ukraine the US will gladly watch from the sidelines. NATO is still a lapdog, or alter ego, but there are lots of folks in Europe who aren’t very happy with the sanctions against Russia because they were the ones who sold stuff to Russia.
The US will probably always have Britain, but the rest of Europe would rather have Russian gas than America’s nuclear shield.
I don’t know if you read Pepe Escobar, but he regularly addresses the financial angles of our current war with Russia. Alexander Mercouris is another source for economic underpinnings and strategies of our war against Russia. Read those guys to get some background on the economics of the war against Russia.
Meanwhile, have you given much thought to why the US has been fucking around in Afghanistan for the last 35 years?
Bob In Portland
@Corner Stone: Oh, and if the economic war against Russia continues, what can the Russians do? Default, for one thing. Granted, it’s like pulling the pin on your hand grenade to throw the world into depression (Europe is just about there already) but if you’re dying why not invite your killers along? There are less drastic steps, but showing Europe that their economic well-being is threatened by the US’ desire to corner the energy market is becoming obvious. That, in the long run, will push Europe away from the American empire.
And while I doubt that most Americans would connect the sanctions against Russia to a future worldwide depression (a large portion think it was Obama who gave us the 2008 correction) Europeans will. They are already suffering. The US’ rational choice is to accept that Russia will forever sit on the largest petroleum deposit in the world, that US corporations won’t be able to grab it, and that there are limits to where Exxon and Chevron can plant the corporate flag. What’s happening now is that the American empire wants to eliminate its competition in energy. If I had the time and energy tonight I’d describe Herbert Hoover’s pre-WWI oil leases in pre-Soviet Russia to give a little historical perspective, but I’m stuffed with Dungeness crab and I’m working my way through a Jameson and listening to Christmas music on the radio and opening presents with my girlfriend and her daughter.
I’ve recommended several books by Christopher Simpson here. BLOWBACK is a detailed look at how the US imported Nazis and fascists into the US after WWII. THE SCIENCE OF COERCION is about the development of propaganda in the US from 1945 to 1960. But you might like his book THE SPLENDID BLOND BEAST which goes into detail about US involvement in Middle Eastern oil intrigues after WWI. And genocide and all the things that go along with making money.
Enjoy your holiday.
Sondra
It’s funny that phrase “partriotic duty” because I said that to my guy last night. That I felt we HAD to go see it even though neither or us would have wanted to see it in the first place.
Good. Now we don’t have to go to the ‘Drive In’ which is where it is showing in West Palm Beach.