complete list of groups who stage protests at funerals:
- Westboro Baptist Church
- New York Police Department
— Matt Binder (@MattBinder) December 27, 2014
Here are two pictures. One from today at the funeral of Officer Liu where Patrick Lynch’s goon squad ignored the Police Commissioner and turned their backs on the mayor, one from NYE in Pittsburgh where the police chief took a picture with citizens vowing to work to end racism within the Police ranks:
Now. Take a wild guess who is apologizing. Congratulations, you win the internet:
In an email to the entire city police bureau, Pittsburgh Police Chief Cameron McLay is responding to criticism of his appearance in a photo on Twitter in which he holds a sign challenging racism. The sign read, “I resolve to challenge racism @ work. #EndWhiteSilence.” The chief’s message to the rank and file came after a critical email from the president of the union representing city police.
“It appears my having been photographed with a sign supporting racial justice at work and (opposing) ‘white silence’ has offended some. If any of my PBP (Pittsburgh Bureau of Police) family was offended, I apologize. You are very important to me and I would never hurt you purposefully,” McLay wrote.
The chief explains in the email that during a stop in a coffee shop at the city’s “First Night” New Year’s Eve celebration, he ran into a group asking people of all races to join in a discussion about racial inequality and injustice.
“We spoke for a few minutes about how implicit or unconscious bias results in misunderstanding on all sides, and how the need is for dialogue to clear up misunderstanding. They asked for me to take a picture holding a sign,” McLay wrote.
“The sign indicated my willingness to challenge racial problems in the workplace. I am so committed. If there are problems in the PBP related to racial injustice, I will take action to fix them,” the chief wrote.
“I saw no indictment of police or anyone else in this sign, but I do apologize to any of you who felt I was not supporting you; that was not my intent,” McLay said in the email.
McLay’s message followed an email sent to him earlier Friday by Pittsburgh Fraternal Order of Police President Howard McQuillan.
“…The recent Twitter photo has restarted the rebuilding of a wall between the Chief’s Office and the rank and file, that we have been working tirelessly to tear down for some time now. We need to repair the department’s morale, then work our way outward to the community,” the union president wrote.
“…Our current Chief of Police (is) insinuating that we are now racist, merely by the color of our skin and the nature of our profession. I say enough is enough!” McQuillan wrote.
I’m now of the opinion that America’s police force is mainly composed of the whiniest, wimpiest gits on the planet. And stupid as hell, to boot.
j
Wall to wall coverage about slain police but not a word about the first victim..his girlfriend.
wmd
Lack of intelligence is not a hindrance to a career as a police officer. Unfortunately lack of compassion is not either.
Corner Stone
I wish to Christ we could re-classify these guys as anything other than a union or union members.
Comrade Mary
That’s more of a non-apology apology: “if anyone was offended, I’m sorry.” Not too much backing down there, and his mayor is still supporting him. He repeated his stance about the sign and his message, and I think he won’t be the one whimpering during the hurt fees-fees tour this week.
Cervantes
Mainly? You can re-examine that judgment when sufficiently many officers who don’t fit that description speak up — if they do.
David Koch
I’m surprised they haven’t called on South Park and/or Comedy Central to apologize for calling them racist in their season finale.
A Black Guy Walked Into The Police Station
eta:
ALLEGEDLY!!
dp
Every policeman I’ve known — including friends and family members — were at least a little bit power-mad.
Tree With Water
“I’m now of the opinion that America’s police force is mainly composed of the whiniest, wimpiest gits on the planet. And stupid as hell, to boot”.
That serves as a fair description of republican voters in general, too.
John Revolta
@Corner Stone: Well, they’re the one union that Republicans don’t seem to hate. If that makes ya feel any better.
Walker
McLay’s apology is a fake apology. It is an “I apologize if you were offended.” It is the mainstream equivalent of “Bless your heart.” Which in this case is entirely appropriate.
RedKitten
Yup, because the most pressing problem right now is police morale. The poor dears are HURT, don’t you understand? We have to make them feel better before we can even begin to address the systemic racism and brutality.
David Koch
khead
I’m old enough to remember when the wingnuts were outraged over the impropriety of the Paul Wellstone funeral.
Renie
Has anyone seen any articles about how NYC residents feel about what the cops did during the funerals? They elected the Mayor so I would think they support him but I haven’t seen anything. I live in the suburbs of NYC where a lot of cops live and, obviously, all LTE support the cops. But people out here haven’t been subjected to their tactics. Just wondering how NYC people feel about it.
dp
Every policeman I known — including friends and family members — were at least a little bit power-mad.@dp:
What terrible grammar — “was.”
Corner Stone
@Renie:
That actually is a little weird. What do a chunk of NYC peeps think about this?
I have no idea.
J
The top photo, and others I’ve seen elsewhere, show a few officers refusing to turn their backs. Good for them! When simple decency can’t be taken for granted, those who show it display courage and perform small acts of heroism.
Judge Crater
What a disgrace. These cops have no sense of public duty. They should just go back to the good old days when they copped free meals and booze while on duty. And when they’d just take perps back to the station house and break their fingers.
That’s what they’re really saying: we are the law, don’t criticize or fuck with us.
David Koch
Now he’s gone too far!
Whaat’s next – hanging out with Cole and Seth Rogan?!
raven
@J: Those cops were from Augusta, GA.
eta Actually I saw what I thought was a caption above that picture but it appears it was just an AP snippet. I embiggened it and it looks like they are NYPD.
Major Major Major Major
Out of curiosity, which direction means they aren’t turning their backs? Which direction is the funeral?
Anyway, good on the PDP guy for not actually apologizing. Crazy how they can’t/choose not to tell the difference between saying “there are some racial challenges we can work through” and saying “y’all are a bunch of racists.” I know, I know, I should be used to it by now, but it’s always such a big WTF for me every time.
Corner Stone
What a bunch of cowards.
raven
@David Koch: He could have gone up to Hana and hung with Peter Buck, Willie and Woody and sparked one up!
Cervantes
@Renie:
No, but I did see a poll in December, before the funerals, in which 44% of New Yorkers felt the police were doing a good job. That contrasts with the usual 60-70%, not to mention the post-9/11 peak of 76%.
(By “New Yorkers” here I mean residents of the Big Apple.)
raven
@Major Major Major Major: The back turning was away from the monitor of the service held inside the temple or church.
j
Her name is Shaneka Thompson and her female black life MATTERS
raven
@j: She didn’t die either.
Mike E
Yeah, nothing says ‘duty’ like showing your ass at a funeral.
Peale
@David Koch: I lost respect for Eddie Vedder when he used his concert stage to try to lure Aaron Rodgers to the Bears. I plan to turn my back to him at his funeral.
Mike in NC
Not everybody is cut out for a career as a jackbooted thug.
Citizen Alan
@khead:
IIRC, it wasn’t even Wellstone’s funeral. It was a separate memorial service that was crashed by lowlifes like Trent Lott who were opposed to everything Wellstone stood for and got butthurt because his supporters disapproved of them coming just for a cheap photo-op.
JMG
The simplest way to get rid of all big city cops would be to extend the civil service resident requirement to them. But frankly, the low level pols of municipal government are physically afraid of cops as well as politically.
Fun fact: Calvin Coolidge eventually became President by firing an entire police department.
Major Major Major Major
@raven: So in the pictures, is it the people looking towards the cleared out lane for the procession (towards the camera), or the people looking towards the closest buildings (away from the camera) who turned their backs?
mclaren
Cowardly sadistic bullies are always the whiniest, wimpiest gits on the planet and stupid to boot. Take away a mugger with a badge’s taser and automatic handgun and point a camera at him, and he’ll start crying like a little girl.
Unfortunately America has chosen to corral its sadistic cowardly bullies by making them police officers. This works well for the officers but less well for the people who find themselves interacting with the police.
And for the cringing lickspittles who rush forward to bleat “But it’s only a few bad cops!”…no, it’s all of them.
Police who aren’t sadists, who don’t bully civilians, who aren’t brutal, who don’t lie, quickly get flushed out of the police force by their fellow muggers with badges. As the incident of the Pittsburgh police chief above so amply demonstrates.
mclaren
@Corner Stone:
They’re a gang, like the Crips or the Bloods, but better armed and more ruthless.
Instead of “union president,” describe him as a “gang leader.”
Omnes Omnibus
@Peale: Oh, come on. He made a joke about trading Cutler for Rodgers at a concert in Milwaukee.
waspuppet
Any NONwhite cops turn their back on deBlasio?
Mike E
@Citizen Alan: Yeah, they were outraged that a wake turned into a Democratic rally. Fuck them.
Suzanne
I was catching up with some of my best girlfriends from junior high and high school. One of them brought up this dude that went to school with us named Matt, and wondered what/how he was doing. I hated Matt. He was a pompous, lazy douchebag, who said in seventh grade that he wanted to be a senator because they had more real power than the POTUS.
So one of my friends looked him up and got back to me: Apparently life hasn’t gone the way Matt planned, and he’s now a state trooper.
UGH UGH UGH.
Peale
@Omnes Omnibus: sure. A joke. Little did you know how close to that happening it was. Now apparently Obama is involved…if it ever happens, I’m switching my voter registration to Natural Law party in protest.
j
@raven: So her life doesn’t matter because she is alive?
What a sick fm u r
Eric S.
@JMG: Chicago still has the residency requirement for all municipal employees. In a city that is already highly segregated there are two or three neighborhoods bordering the suburbs that are where the majority of police and firemen live.
Cervantes
@Mike E:
Well, their outrage was what eventually gave us Senator Al Franken … so there’s that.
Their outrage plus the voters, that is.
Major Major Major Major
@Cervantes: those, and the lizard people.
Roger Moore
Also, IIRC, ignoring the expressed wishes of the family of the deceased, who asked that the funeral not be used as a site for protests. But who gives a fuck about a grieving widow when there are points to be scored in upcoming contract negotiations?
Nutella
Yeah, that was one of the most amazing things about the testimony of the cop who was so terrified of big bad Michael Brown. Brown was an unarmed pedestrian. Wilson was armed with a gun, a police radio, and a giant SUV but claimed to be desperately frightened. Maybe we should hire some cops who aren’t pants-wetting cowards like Wilson?
mclaren
@waspuppet:
Good question. One thing I’ve noticed is that all these photos of protesting cops show all white faces and nothing but white faces. The NYPD is supposed to have lots of minorities now, it’s allegedly a much less white police force than it used to be.
So where are they?
Where are all the non-white police in these photos of cops at funerals?
mclaren
@Nutella:
All bullies are cowards. Police departments naturally attract bullies, the way a magnet naturally attracts iron filings. Q.E.D.
j
@raven: What a cold bitch you are.
sublime33
So when does anybody get to pick and choose who they report to? And these are the folks who get upset when everyone doesn’t respect their authority, but they refuse to respect their mayor’s authority.
Keith G
@j: Are you high?
The Raven on the Hill
Whiny, wimpy gits with guns. We need a study of how things got this way, stat! Then we need to do something.
Belafon
You’re missing the best part of the image: The cops that turned, are facing a dunkin donuts:
Belafon
OK, the “can’t have more than two links” makes tweets hard. Let’s try this again:
You’re missing the best part of the image: The cops that turned are facing a dunkin donuts:
Belafon
@The Raven on the Hill:
Blacks stopped wanting to be killed and some whites agreed.
mclaren
@The Raven on the Hill:
How things got this way? 9/11, that’s how.
As for doing something — exactly what do you propose to do?
Police are city employees with a union and a contract. They’re not answerable to civilians. There’s nothing you can do. These muggers have been given badges and military-grade weaponry and they don’t give a shit what you think. That’s a very dangerous situation, and it’s not obvious how to fix it.
The NYPD is in control of New York city, not the civilians. There’s nothing the civilians can do. If civilians try to protest in the streets, they’ll get beaten and tased and shot like cattle.
And the police will get overtime pay for it.
Elie
I am sorry — they look and sound like losers. I see no stampede of sympathy for their classless and childish behavior. I see the media side stepping the issue of their integrity — no one except maybe Ghouliani trumpets their stance. They are spectacularly contemptible. As my husband pointed out, this kind of bullshit from them reaches back to 1966 when Mayor Lindsay set up the Police Review Commission. Check it out in the NYT archieves. These have been knuckledragging, Neanderthals for a real long time. Remember the riot of 10,000 policemen on the steps of City Hall? They need a cleansing, but that would be like cleaning out the sewers.
This will not be a winner for them. Times have changed. While there are a lot of racist peckerwoods, the ways to fuck you have increased in number and effective subtlety. A couple of these goombas need to get into trouble with the IRS (though its less powerful these days) or have films of them in less than stellar situations. Thise days, there is always someone ready to be the beatch for the right “price” (not always necessarily financial). Everybody who encouraged this back turning had better have clean shit back home — socially AND financially. Remember — Anonymous gave the KKK a little lesson about what the big fuck looks like in “modern times”
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@waspuppet: At least one obviously nonwhite office appears in the photo above.
Bill Arnold
@Major Major Major Major:
Did you get an answer to your question about which direction was back? There are clearly at least 2 backs of dark skinned officer heads. Wondering if they were joining in or rejecting the dissing.
Elie
@Bill Arnold:
All this does is reinforce that there are divisions among the police corps. This is not a good thing. Hilights the profound mistake of the “strategy” used by the PBS — they will rue this — and unfortunately New York will also suffer the black eye.
rikyrah
@Eric S.:
yes, it is.
And, yes, the Police and Fireman always whine about it when time to re-negotiate their contract.
But, too bad.
You get a fucking six-figure paycheck from the City of Chicago and your azzes don’t think you should live within its borders?
GET DA PHUQ OUTTA HERE.
I didn’t agree with 99.99% of what former Mayor King Richard II did, but he DID keep this policy in place.
rikyrah
@JMG:
DeBlasio should turn that back on them, and say that he’s going to leave it open for a vote of the citizens – whether or not the cops that harass them should have to live within its borders.
I’d love to see the tapdance of the unions trying to explain why they should get a six-figure paycheck, but not have to live in the city.
Put it to a vote of the people.
NotMax
@Elie
On the contrary, it is a very good thing. Shoving entrenched dysfunction under a rock of rectitude, keeping its existence from the bright light of day, whitewashing that there exists a widespread problem, those are not good things.
Bruuuuce
@Renie: As an NYC resident, I deplore what the cops did the first time, and despise that they did it AGAIN, despite (1) themselves insisting on other protests being suspended until the funerals were complete and (2) being requested (not ordered) not to politicize Det. Liu’s funeral out of respect for him.
If it had been me, I would have made that request an order, with a minimum two-week unpaid suspension for disobedience. But I am a well-known softy.
JGabriel
Renie:
I can tell you what this New Yorker thinks:
Fire the officers who turned their backs on a dead compatriot and his family at a funeral while the mayor spoke.
The NYPD members who are turning their backs on the mayor are disrespecting the slain officer, his family, their fellow officers with the decency to remain facing forward, their boss, the 70+% of NYC citizens who voted for the mayor, and the democracy by which he was elected. Furthermore, going by the recent statistics, they aren’t even doing their jobs. So fire them, and train new officers who will respect the chain of command and the citizens whom they are meant to protect.
That’s my opinion, anyway.
Eric S.
@rikyrah: I think residency is a good policy but it is not having the effect of integrating the police with the rest of the citizens. They have self segregated themselves in their own enclaves.
Also, FWIW, one of the stated goals of the residency requirement is to get municipal employees to spend their paychecks within the city.
Bruuuuce
@Roger Moore: On the other hand, the (denied but real) work slowdown (in which arrests for minor offenses has dropped 93% recently and crime has dropped, too) is setting the cops up poorly for negotiations. I hope the aptly-named Lynch finds himself blamed for the union’s poor new contract. (Then again, I wish that members of the NYPD had to live within city limits, but one thing at a time.)
Bruuuuce
@wmd: Lack of intelligence is not a hindrance to being a police officer; too much intelligence may be. http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/05/01/too_smart_to_be_a_cop.html
priscianus jr
I think you miss the deliberate irony in the Pittsburgh chief’s more or less forced “apology”. He hasn’t changed his views.
Debbie
@JGabriel:
And also raise the hiring standards.
BBA
The NYPD residency requirements are a matter of state law (and apply to all police departments in the state). Good luck getting the Republican State Senate to approve changing them. Hell, good luck getting Cuomo or Silver to wake up and realize the “tuff on crime” 80s are long gone and we don’t need to cater to the law enforcement community’s every whim.
Besides which, getting a bunch of cops to leave Nassau County and move to Staten Island won’t change all that much.
Bill Arnold
@Cervantes:
For those interested in the 44% NYPD approval rating (December 4-10, 2014), Crosstabs here, sort of readable in full view. The police question is Q18.
It is surprising. Considering contract negotiations, the tussling with the major is arguably a little dumb on the part of the union.
(My ancient ABBYY FineReader OCR choked on the low-res image, so no text, sorry)
Shalimar
They need to impose one new standard more than anything else: honesty. Tell officers that being trustworthy is by far the most important part of upholding the law. They can support their fellow officers by helping them through difficult situations, not lying for them so they don’t get punished.
Most important, if you get caught in any lie in court or on an official report, you are immediately fired and never work for any law enforcement agency again.
Violet
Have their been any more planes flying banners with anti-De Blasio statements? That and the back-turning are the kinds of things that the average person looks at and simply doesn’t understand. Showing respect for the family of the deceased at a funeral is pretty much a universally understood sentiment. Turning it into a personal protest is appalling.
No matter what the cops think of the mayor, that was wrong to do. It’s exactly the childish, petty action that turns people who might not really be paying attention, and who might generally have a favorable view of the police, against them in a significant way. It gets people to pay attention. “Who are these crybabies?” And then once they look into it, they lose any respect they did have for the cops.
I think the union is making a big mistake by doing this stuff. It’s going to backfire on them.
Bruuuuce
@BBA:
Sure it would. It would make that many more houses available for some of us to buy in Lawn Guy Land. :-)
Then we can trade Staten Island to New Jersey for a couple of first-round draft choices and add Yonkers as the new fifth borough :-D
Roger Moore
@Debbie:
What happens if they can’t meet both their staffing goals and their hiring standards? It seems to me that the biggest problem is that there aren’t enough competent, well-trained police out there to staff all the police departments in the country, so we’re filling them up with less competent and less well trained officers instead.
BruinKid
And here’s another way to turn people against you. Protest and interrupt a 100-year-old WWII vet getting a medal from a U.S. Senator at a town hall meeting.
Violet
@BruinKid: What a bunch of dumbasses. That’s exactly the way to turn people against you, no matter what the issue is you’re protesting.
amy c
My cousin and I grew up pretty close. There weren’t other kids in our family near our ages – she’s a few years younger than me – and we lived near each other, geographically. So we spent a lot of time together. As we grew up, our interests diverged. She was all Us Weekly and lipstick and getting drunk with her girls. And I was all books and NPR and being hardworking but boring. But still, she was family and we knew each other from birth, kept each others’ silly childhood secrets, and I loved her.
She’s never been the brightest bulb in the box, but she hasn’t been politically involved either, and I didn’t care much. She was who she was. A few years ago, she met a man who wasn’t particularly bright or politically involved, either – but he was good to her and seemingly a good guy, and when they got married, it was great news. Until that point, he had kind of bounced from job to job in an aimless way. But after the marriage, he wanted to Do Right By Her, and he became a cop.
This on its own? Didn’t bother me a bit. I mean, he seemed like a decent dude and I assumed he’d be a decent cop, no big deal. But then 2014 happened, and suddenly he’s in my home for Thanksgiving, arguing that he’d have shot Mike Brown, too, and people are protesting just because they’re too lazy to work. And she’s posting nonsense memes from the “I AM DARREN WILSON” Facebook group. And they are both talking about how well-stocked their gun safe is – for protection from Obama’s advancing armies coming to take their freedoms, I guess? And suddenly there is this gap, this huge impossible gap, between my cool little cousin and me.
We text sometimes and we joke about neutral topics like HGTV and food and our kids, but…she knows where I stand on police behavior and I know where she stands on police behavior, and I don’t see a way for either of us to get to the other side of that chasm.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@mclaren:
You’re kidding, right? You’re ignoring 150+ years of questionable policing that was allowed to carry on by an unfazed majority in the face of reform movements prior to 2001…So that you can tie it in with some grand unifying conspiracy theory?
Mike E
@Bruuuuce: For your edification…the many “6th boroughs” of NYC, as reported by the NYT.
Bruuuuce
@Mike E: And, of course, this classic: http://planet-zach.com/pictures/1-%20NEW%20YORK%201976.jpg
Mike E
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): You must be new here.
kc
@BruinKid:
Dumb-asses.
ruemara
I can tell you what this ex-NYer feels. Fuck this assholes. Doesn’t look like a crime wave is happening, so maybe NYC can save some cash and cut some heads.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Mike E:
I wish.
I just keep giving mclaren one more chance to prove that s/he’s (honestly not sure of the gender there- not some sort of slam) got an iota of critical thinking skills.
Omnes Omnibus
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): I’ll confess to occasionally trying something similar. Doing it brings this to mind: I’d like to go back to Paris someday and visit the Louvre Museum. Get a good running start and hurl myself at the wall.
Elie
@NotMax:
I agree– there is now the opportunity to get your hands on it. I meant that it was not a good manifestation of where we are.. not that it couldn’t result in a positive action — you are right
lurker dean
@amy c: i feel your pain. i have republican relatives who’ve essentially become openly racist since PBO was elected. it pains me to think of seeing them at family functions. from your short description it sounds like i was never as close to them as you were to your cousin, though, so i can only imagine your sadness, if that’s the right term.
Roger Moore
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
She. It doesn’t come up often, but mclaren is a woman.
Omnes Omnibus
@Roger Moore: No, I think not; In the past year mclaren has identified as a dude. Or at least, acted that way with “I’d tap that” comments about an actress. It is quite possible that aimai’s theory of paid agit-prop player comes into play. The gender of the person posting as mclaren may have changed. In any case, mclaren is not someone to be taken seriously.
waspuppet
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Not with his back turned tho.
Omnes Omnibus
@waspuppet: Which direction equals back turned?
wasabi gasp
I’d like to see some enterprising artist get ahold of info on these cops, then do a variation of the ubiquitous FBI list and plaster up across the whole city NYC’s Least Wanted posters featuring these asshats.
Mnemosyne
@Roger Moore:
Nope, sorry, we had a long conversation in the comments this summer and mclaren says that he’s a guy. It makes me feel much better, but I’m sorry that you’re stuck with him on your gender team.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
What’s one more asshole? Not like there was ever a shortage.
ItAintEazy
@<a href="#comme@mclaren: nt-5216361″>@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): waspuppet: Then there are these fine people
ItAintEazy
@waspuppet: then there are these fine people https://twitter.com/NewaHailu/status/548889236225552384/photo/1
ETA: Last post was fucked.
Aimai
@Mike in NC: @Mnemosyne: iI remember a time when mclaren said she was a woman but he/she’s vibe has always been male. The angry jerk part has been the only invariant.
Elizabelle
@wasabi gasp:
NYPD’s Least Wanted, for sure.
These back-turners look like punks.
Elizabelle
FWIW, I get what mclaren was saying with this:
9/11 led to the fetishization of the security state.
Although police have tolerated bad apples way too long. They’d be better off without those not suited for police work, too.
It’s patriotic to protest police brutality. Which does not mean that protesters are saying all police are terrible. That’s an overstatement their insaniac union reps have seized on, incorrectly.
I wonder a bit if a steady diet of Fox News and its like has distorted reality for the union reps.
debbie
@Elizabelle:
This is less about security state than it is about institutionalized racism — Abner Louima being just one example. Then there was Edward Koch, who called the accused Central Park rapists “monsters” (they were later exonerated, but I never heard anything about an apology). And most of the population was in on it too (Howard Beach).
I’m sure people who lived in NYC longer than I have would have additional examples. In many ways, New England’s no less racist than parts of the South.
Elizabelle
@debbie:
I agree about the institutionalized racism. lamh has put up a Louisiana literacy test on the thread above, which is ridiculous, and the police would have been the enforcers.
That said, there are a lot of reasons too many police officers and forces are not functioning well. I hope we get some honest effort at improving the situation. Which takes citizen input too.
Matt McIrvin
@Elizabelle: 9/11 caused a resurgence of worries specifically about terrorism, and a move toward militarism. But before that, there was the way that the landmark decisions of the Warren Court about civil rights and rights of the accused were followed by a decades-long crime wave. It was almost certainly an unfortunate coincidence, but I remember all the jokes and TV episodes about how criminals were running wild in the streets because they kept “getting off on technicalities” and how a penal system run by squishy liberals just gave them slaps on the wrist anyway. And the trend toward longer and longer mandatory sentences, “three strikes” laws, the explosion of incarceration, and a lot of glorification of brutal cops and vigilantes, all followed.
Dave
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): I think Mclaren does have those. They can be very insightful about large trends etc but the US and actions since 9/11 form a a black-hole of attraction everything goes back to that and the way they view the US as uniquely evil. Charles Pierces five minute rule for Libertarians pretty much applies to Mclaren as well. They sometimes have some very cogent and worthwhile points but then at minute five go off into crazy pill land.
Also they tend to be very fatalistic. You can’t do anything about police power because the police don’t care and have the guns sort of thing. It’s easy fatalism. Yes we can. No it won’t be easy or perfect and it will take far longer than it should and nothing lasts forever (good or bad) but to say we are helpless is a sort of self indulgent wallowing. I actually wonder if it’s not that these issues are worse but that public awareness of them has grown and now we are in the early stages of actually making a difference (I could be wrong and it could get worse but cheap fatalism bores me).
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
@Dave:
Part of an argument I got into with mclaren the other day was when I pointed out that after close to 20 years of effort, LAPD is very, very slowly improving — the current chief even decided recently that a shooting by police (of a white guy, after a high-speed chase) was UNjustified! Pointing out that change is possible but happens very slowly did not go over well, to say the least.
jwalden91lx
But if members of the PBP aren’t guilty of racism on the job, there’s nothing to feel guilty about, right?
Dave
@Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):
Assuming Mclaren is honest and not some form of troll etc well that sort of gradualism will never work for them things seem either all good or all evil and any failing means all evil and bad. It’s frustrating as hell that it takes twenty years to make modest progress but to deny that progress is twisted. And I’ve read enough postings by them that they will never acknowledge in any real way gradual progress.
Harold Samson
@Dave:
It’s lazy to call a disagreeable poster a “troll.”
McClaren is a fatalistic outrage junkie and often blasts extreme, sarcastic statements that have a kernel of truth. Some people see that kernel and engage, others are simply offended.
McClaren remembers the insults and usually returns the favor.
He’s not that different then a fair number of the regulars here.
cervantes
@Harold Samson:
Messenger, prepare to be shot.
glory b
@rikyrah: Hey, I’m late to the party but we didi this in Pittsburgh a few years ago. The referendum went decisively for keeping the residency requirement. Then, the police submitted it for arbitration. I’m figuring an arbitrator can’t overturn a piece of legislation, but it seems likr the matter is on hold, I haven’t heard anything about it for quite a while.
cervantes
@Bill Arnold:
Thanks much. I had no time to elaborate.
Full metal Wingnut
@Roger Moore: They should be fired for flagrantly disobeying the Comish’s orders. A perfectly legal order, so no excuse.
Dave
@Harold Samson: That’s why I’m reluctant to call troll I really don’t think Mclaren is. They seem entirely to earnest. Every once in a while though I get the feeling that they are posting to explicitly piss people off but even that isn’t true trolling. You are right they are just frustrating and see the world in extreme black and white.
And quite a few posters here fall into that. Though Mclaren is probably one of the most consistently extreme ones. And it’s not the extremity of beliefs its the approach to those beliefs. Zero nuance.
Full metal Wingnut
@Bruuuuce: Yeah I never got the isolation thing. My MIL in Perth Amboy is closer to Staten Island than I am in Upper Manhattan. Either Bayonne and maybe Jersey City become part of NYC, or SI is ceded to Jersey.
Dave
@Harold Samson: I also find Mclaren frustrating because I’m pretty sure they are pretty bright but it’s swamped under there very black and white world view. Though I am curious how an actual face to face encounter would go. Online communication is good but it can lead to easy demonization and misunderstanding. For instance definitely still working on making myself clear online. It’s to easy to say something inelegantly and leave it out there. Might actually find them more interesting in person.
Full metal Wingnut
@Full metal Wingnut: Hell she’s closer even if I went all the way down to Battery Park. Make our city that much bluer. Let them spin off into their own municipality, they can be like Nassau.
Cervantes
@Dave:
Here are two “world views”: (1) Democrats are good while Republicans are bad; and (2) Democrats are as bad as Republicans in some ways.
Which of those views would you call “black and white”? Which is closer to McLaren’s view? Which view is closer to the mainstream here?
Dave
@Cervantes: Damn I had a long response to this but deleted it. So a lot of nuance will be lost. It boiled down to I was being unfair to Mclaren though I think they do see the world in a very specific lens and work that in and that lens leads to some very black and white views or at least statements.
That most here are primarily category one (though suspect it’s more Republican policy is so bad that the Democrats mixed/bad policies and beliefs are downplayed I’m certainly farther to the left than even an entirely democratic controlled govt would act). That Mclaren is category two more or less though think they are less Dem/Republican and more focused on other areas.
That I do find their statements to be inflammatory though there are other regulars here that are probably nearly as inflammatory or as much so but that I since they are more in agreement with me I am biased for them and against Mclaren.
That it would be interesting to talk to Mclaren in person just because I find quite a bit is lost online and suspect that they would be interesting, frustrating, or both.
That Harold Samson’s view in comment #110 is probably accurate though possibly a little unfair.
Cervantes
@Dave:
Thanks for the response.
In general I understand that sometimes people find it easier to focus on personality rather than content. This is hardly surprising, especially in certain cases. (I am not including your present remarks here, obviously.)
If by “black and white” here you mean “emphatic,” I agree.
OK, but what do you mean here by “inflammatory”? One person’s “inflammatory” could be another person’s (attempt to be) “inspiring” or, at least, “cathartic.”
Well, I presume you saw my response to that comment.