I have a TV question. We used to have Downton Abbey threads around here but that seems to have tapered off–why? This is for those of you who give a shit about the show, and I’ll bury it because of possible spoilers.
My take is that Downton jumped the shark about the time it put Sybil in the ground. I have a lot of respect for any show that kills off a key, interesting major character, but when you do that, you need to introduce another key, interesting major character. For anyone whose interest in Downton went beyond sniffing the panties of the nobility and/or looking at period costumes, the show was interesting because Sybil and Tom were intelligent, lively challengers of the ri-fucking-diculous notions of the crew of tedious, arrogant toffs who populate that estate. When Sybil died, Tom was neutered by grief and accommodation for his daughter, so a lot of the interesting tension went out of the show, to be replaced by much less interesting and compelling story lines.
A key example of that is the duller than Daisy’s dishwater question of who Mary will marry. Right now there are two inbreed douches vying for that dubious honor. Mary is probably a fair representation of the combination of dullness and amoral optimization that characterized the minor nobility of Edwardian England, but it’s pretty hard to hang hours of TV on that slender peg. Her sister, Edith, is even duller, despite desperate attempts to build a storyline with her illegitimate kid.
As for the rest — Lord Grantham is about as smart as his dog Isis, and much less accommodating. Lady Rose has mainly become a stereotype of silly youth. Isobel seems to have been a bit de-natured of late. Perhaps if Bates would kill someone else, things would get interesting downstairs, but there’s not much there other than the tedious bitchiness and redemption cycle of Thomas. Carson’s harrumphing is starting to sound like Sam the Eagle on the Muppets.
Obviously, I still watch the show, but it isn’t a must-see for me anymore. Is this the general opinion?
BGinCHI
I honestly thought it tanked soon after season 1. Once the tension of the inheritance and war were gone it just devolved into those upstairs people being exactly who we thought they were.
They had the ensemble right from the opening but could not sustain it.
Anyone else here watch the just-ended first season of The Missing? Hard to watch at times but really well-written and suspenseful as hell. Plus James Nesbitt!
rikyrah
I watch it, but not with the passion I once did.
To be honest, the jump the shark moment was Matthew’s death. HE made Mary tolerable.
and,the insistence on not giving Edith ANY happiness.
Nicole
First of all, thank you for the Buggles reference.
I hate watch the show. I thought the first season was terrific, and the pilot, especially, did a great job setting up the season-long conflict in the first five minutes. Great.
But that second season was so preposterous. I actively rooted against Mary and Matthew getting together.
And now, there just aren’t any stakes. Who cares if Mary gets married? She’s rich either way.
I do think the acting is still pretty good. And of course it’s great costume porn.
satby
Well it looks like they’re moving Tom back into an independent role after introducing the teacher potential love interest, and also a possibly more nuanced Thomas, as the last episode hinted at. I really wonder how much the departure of the guy who played Mary’s husband derailed the original story arc, forcing Fallows to spend part of last season building some new back stories.
raven
Because it sucks.
Buddy H
I rather like the smart young schoolteacher who is giving the math lessons.. A true revolutionary; rather than sitting around talking about it, she is actively helping a “downstairs” person improve her life. And she makes math interesting and intuitive: numbers are here to help you solve problems and mysteries.
I like how the downstairs staff is disappearing, i.e., the “servant problem”
Last season, when Lord Grantham offered to solve their money woes by saying hopefully “I’ve heard of a chap by the name of Ponzi!” was a laugh-out-loud moment for me.
When the devilish wireless contraption was brought into the house (I’m old enough to remember when you had to wait for tubes to “warm up”) and the dowager stood at attention for the king’s voice.
I suppose the show HAS jumped the shark, but there are still little moments here and there that keep me watching. It is trash, but it is high-class, polished, somewhat witty trash.
Edith is quite dull, but was her beau really killed by nazis? Will he make a triumphant return and sweep her away to a life of journalism and babies?
What amazes me is how horribly Mary treats Edith at the dinner table, and their mother says nothing. She is allowed to be as rude as she wishes to her sister, and the parents don’t acknowledge the cruelty. Is that a thing with the nobility?
schrodinger's cat
Every time Lord Grantham opens his mouth, I want to deck him. I don’t remember him being quite this insufferable in the earlier seasons. Mary’s charms have more to do with her inheritance rather than any intrinsic quality of hers, me thinks.
schrodinger's cat
@Nicole: Not a fan of those shapeless 20s styles.
raven
@Buddy H: And that stupid look “mum” keeps on her face, ugh!
schrodinger's cat
@raven: I guess it is to show us, that stupid Americans are stupid.
schrodinger's cat
The only thing worth watching is Violet’s zingers directed at Isobel.
CONGRATULATIONS!
The show sucks, everyone realized it, life goes on.
The logical time for putting a bullet in the head of that show was the end of the first season. I’m thinking Game of Thrones is probably going to meet the same fate unless they can significantly improve (key words highlighted there) on the books, because the books sure lose the plot quick.
Buddy H
One thing I hate, is the little mini-documentaries my PBS station runs, featuring the actors talking about their roles, and they are out of costume! Today’s men have fluffy, longish hair, shampooed, layered and conditioned. And the old ladies look younger with their shoulder-length hair.
I don’t want to see them out of character! It breaks what little spell is left!
It’s like at the end of “Being There” when they showed Peter Sellers outtakes. Completely ruined the magic of the film..
When I watch Downton Abbey, goddammit, I want to believe I’m seeing a time machine, not a bunch of slicked down actors!
constitutional mistermix
@Nicole: The Mary and Matthew plotline was a huge push. He didn’t seem like enough of a dope to fall for her.
@satby: Yes, Tom is clearly hot for teacher, but why are they so tentative about hooking Tom up with her?
@Buddy H: Teach is clearly a hell of a lot of fun and energy for the few seconds we see her on screen. I would bank against return of newspaper guy because he was actually educated and interesting – can’t have any of that.
Nicole
@schrodinger’s cat: I love them. Mind you, I also worked in the costume shop in college for work study, so I am a fan of period wear in general.
But yeah, I think the joke in the 20s was that the ideal measurements were 30-30-30.
schrodinger's cat
@Nicole: Probably a reaction against all the corsets women had to wear.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
That’s hilarious, because it’s true. But I still like Carson
There was some potential to make Edith an interesting character by sending her to London to have an independent career in journalism, still essentially conservative in a rapidly changing world but becoming a mold-breaker almost in spite of herself, but Fellowes went with the cheapest soap opera storyline he could find in the attic. Also, Fellowes’ longing for an idealized world of lords and those who knew their place gets in the way. The school teacher is right, she’s also obnoxious. I’m a little surprised he’s willing to let the earl be as dumb as he is about the big things.
Scott Peterson
The Anna storyline from last season (referred to euphemistically in case anyone’s watching and hasn’t gotten there yet) turned me off the show forever. That was the last episode I watched and the last one I’ll ever watch. That plot was not only hackneyed and cliched, it was handled atrociously, taking such a serious subject and using it for nothing but nothing but cheap melodrama (although shot with horrific effectiveness). I feel like the show proved it was no longer worth of serious attention, if it ever was. Fuck Julian Fellowes.
constitutional mistermix
@Buddy H: You know what fucks it up for me–those goddam Ralph Lauren commercials. They are like watching someone masturbating on piles of $100 bills.
Nicole
I admit, I’ve been enjoying the Smithsonian Channel’s show about the real-life American heiresses who bought their way into the British aristocracy. Runs immediately before Downton Abbey.
Also, highly recommend Tom&Lorenzo’s recap of Downton Abbey this week. It was funny.
raven
@schrodinger’s cat: Stupid look
raven
@Scott Peterson: Ha, you should have seem Mary send Anna for rubbers!
Buddy H
Agreed about the Ralph Lauren commercials.
My wife keeps insisting Thomas murdered that guy that died in Mary’s bed. Poisoned him because he rejected his advances. If his friend could cause a miscarriage, it could be in the realm of possibility I suppose.
My wife laughs at the opening of every episode, when Grantham is seen walking with the dog, because once I stood up, turned my back to her, and grinned over my shoulder, imitating the dog. My brief little comedy routine stayed in her mind, for some reason.
Are there no cats in the Abbey?
raven
When NONE of them knew that what’s his face couldn’t foster a child when he was paralyzed from the waist down. . . !
raven
@Buddy H: Isis!
daveNYC
PBS has a ‘behind the scenes’ show on streaming that adds some background to the background, so to speak. Really getting the idea that everyone on the show’s existence was rooted entirely on who they were descended from and who their mate and offspring were makes the whole who will marry Mary storyline understandable, though it still doesn’t make it particularly interesting. Especially since I still can’t tell them apart or remember their names (noble guy and pig guy are what I call them).
The show does much better (as in seasons 1 and 2) when it is dealing with outside societal pressures forcing changes on the way the manor works. Without that, the writers end up writing in low grade soap opera plots like Anna’s rape (not to minimize rape, but that storyline didn’t do much but setup some Bates and Anna are sad stuff and another Bates murder mistery), or even worse this season, the “we have a witness to Bates’ last murder” crap that they threw in there at the end of the episode.
The GF still loves it for the hats though.
Knight of Nothing
@Buddy H: I’ve been thinking for a while that the storyline will be that he has *become* a Nazi.
Yes, the show has jumped the shark several times now. But as others have noted, it’s enjoyable trash.
Gin & Tonic
@raven: Like football?
constitutional mistermix
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
As always – Thomas’ latest exploit and cheap redemption being a prime example. Not every series creator can be a show runner, Fellowes being a prime example.
Also agree that the whole Lord G/teacher interplay is poorly written and makes them both look less interesting than they could be.
Nicole
@schrodinger’s cat: Twenties fashion was influenced by a lot of things. The major changes in art found their way into fashion, and of course women’s rights shaped things a lot, too. And tons of new kinds of fabric. I remember getting a bit of a history lesson when I bought what I thought was a 1930s evening gown for my wedding dress, and then being sure it had to be fake because it was rayon. Nope, the dress was for real; rayon came about in the 1920s as a cheaper alternative to silk.
(I looked at some 1920s evening dresses while shopping for a wedding dress, but with all the bead work, they were $$$$$$. And heavy!)
I love viewing fashion as a reflection and an insight into what was going on in a culture at that time. Compare the 1970s silhouette with the 1980s, and look at what was going on in those decades.
raven
@Gin & Tonic: Yea well, where’s the “where did the football threads go”?
Buddy H
I find it interesting that the silly woman who invited herself over and seduced (again) the young footman. If Thomas hadn’t been lurking around keeping lookout for them, the abbey could have burned to the ground.
Is real life like that? Things happen that we can’t perceive that make major changes to our existence, basically random stuff (acted out by silly or ignorant people chasing their passions) that reverberates and causes or prevents disaster?
And yet, when the fire is out, and she sheepishly tells Grantham that she guesses she’ll be leaving.
He has no idea what her behavior prevented.
boatboy_srq
@Nicole:
DITTO. Though I’d have gone with:
I’ve never been especially impressed with anything Julian Fellowes has done anywhere except in front of the camera, and even then only in the “well, he’s better than whoever Hollywood picked out from the amongst the ‘no-training-but-I-wanna-be-a-movie-star’ set” kind of way. Gosford Park was a delight as a murder mystery; but as a period piece it felt more suited to the Hamptons than the Home Counties. I’ve watched some DA, and my impression that Fellowes has an inherent disdain for both up- and down- stairs still stands, along with what I presume is his uncertain grasp of what makes for good television/cinema. I’m actually quite surprised that a) DA has continued to draw viewers and b) that the US is as infatuated as it is – but then it brings us mince pies at Christmas, and it’s made afternoon tea a less unusual meal, so I suppose it must have some redeeming features.
geg6
Seriously? I found last season riveting. Anna’s rape, the rising class consciousness of some of the Downstairs crew…I loved it. And I think we are seeing more rising class consciousness and more seeking of opportunity for the Downstairs crew. And Thomas is finding himself again. I find the Downstairs crew endlessly entertaining and smart. If you thought Sybil was the only interesting character, I question the fact that we are watching the same show.
daveNYC
@constitutional mistermix: Ugh. Yeah, when Thomas latest scheme backfired (and seriously, does that guy even have a motive for his scheming? it’s like thought the scorpion from the scorpion and the frog story would be a good idea to be an ongoing character) all I could think was ‘and what BS is going to come up that’s going to save his bacon this time.
Plots involving him are almost always the same:
1) Thomas is evil for REASONS!
2) Evil plan backfires on him.
3) Something something happens, reset button is pressed and he maintains his position. Until the next scheme pops into his head.
geg6
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Talk about a show that sucks. Watched a total of three episodes of Game of Thrones and wanted to gouge my eyes out. Give me Downton any day.
gogol's wife
Well, this is a charming thread for people who hate the show. Of course Downton Abbey isn’t as entertaining as cutting people’s throats at a wedding or mowing down zombies. It just has great acting, great writing, great costumes, and no blood flowing, so who cares.
gogol's wife
@geg6:
Right. I watch it for Daisy, Mrs. Patmore, Mrs. Carson, and Mrs. Hughes. I think Mary’s storyline is about to get more interesting, though.
gogol's wife
@gogol’s wife:
Also for Maggie Smith and Penelope Wilton’s scenes together.
geg6
@Scott Peterson:
Wow. Totally disagree. Totally showed how rape was handled back in the day (really, just until about ten years or so ago) and how it could just ruin a person’s life completely. Very accurate and on point, IMHO.
gogol's wife
@geg6:
And Joanne Froggatt’s and Phyllis Logan’s acting in the aftermath was breathtaking.
shortstop
I still watch it a) for the costumes and sets and b) so I can entertain the third baseman with imitaAAAAAAtions of Cora’s horribly kittenish way of spEEEeeeaking. But yes, it’s boring as hell now, and putting Bates back in jail will not help matters. That storyline was intolerably long and heavyhanded the first time. I was ready to shank him myself to get it over with.
@boatboy_srq: Having seen and enjoyed the crispness of Gosford Park several times, I can’t forgive Fellowes for the god-awful Downton scripts. As for why Americans continue to love Downton, I think Fellowes expects most of us to be a combination of Balaban’s and Philippe’s confused-but-fascination-by-the-quirks-of-the-aristocracy GP characters — say a middle-income amalgam — and we deliver.
Buddy H
@gogol’s wife:
I would swear that some of the dowager’s lines are straight from Oscar Wilde.
Like when she said it’s easy to avoid people you don’t like, the difficult thing is avoiding your friends. I’d swear that was from an Oscar Wilde play.
I tense in anticipation every time she opens her mouth. I find her hilarious. Do you remember when she shielded herself from the electric lights? Or asked “what am I sitting on?” when she found herself on a modern swivel chair?
JPL
@schrodinger’s cat: IMO, Fellowes only cares about Violet. She’s the only character worth watching because of her lines. Edith has just become insufferable after the disappearance of her love interest and whatever happened to her career in journalism?
shortstop
@gogol’s wife:
Oh, my.
Nicole
@gogol’s wife:
Oh, don’t get me wrong. I hate watch The Walking Dead, too.
Except for Carol. Team Carol.
Grumpy Code Monkey
It’s a period soap opera, and it’s well-done if you’re into that sort of thing, but the stuff that made the first season interesting (the entail, figuring how to keep everything in the family) is gone. Now it’s all “THE TIMES, THEY ARE A’CHANGING, AND I DON’T LIKE IT ONE BIT”, which came stale out of the package.
I mean, we know Lord G’s gonna lose the family fortune again in the next few years (and given the little Teapot Domegate mixup, I wouldn’t trust Cora’s family to hang on to their money either), meaning they’ll need to find another rich guy to marry Mary so they can make him yet another co-co-co-co-owner of Downton before killing him off in a hunting accident or something.
The Dowager is still awesome, but Isobel isn’t holding up her end of the bargain.
gogol's wife
@Buddy H:
Yes, I remember pretty much everything she has said. Most of all I remember her walk across the hall (shot from behind) after Sybil’s death. She did more acting with her face away from the camera than most contemporary American actors can do in a whole film.
shortstop
@Buddy H: Smith’s lines are delicious and I do love the rivalry between her character and Wilton’s. Good stuff.
gogol's wife
@shortstop:
So name me a television show that has better dialogue. (not based on the f-word, that’s lazy)
raven
@Grumpy Code Monkey: He’ll most likely die of boredom.
gogol's wife
get off my lawn kids
raven
@gogol’s wife: Baloney, the Wire scene with nothing but “the F-word” was fucking brilliant.
gogol's wife
I love people who think Season 1 was so exquisite and then it became a soap opera. Dead man in the bed? That wasn’t soap opera? What do you think you were watching?
gogol's wife
@raven:
Dostoevsky did that in the 1870s.
Kman
Tom and O’Brien — always scheming — brought a little danger to the show and made it something other than a parlor drama about Moping Mary. But Tom’s been made more sympathetic and O’Brien is gone altogether. It upset the whole chemistry. There are still some nice moments (mostly from Maggie Smith and her coping with technology), but the show as a whole is a pale imitation of its former self.
raven
@gogol’s wife: Oh, whatever. So he was lazy too huh?
Gin & Tonic
@Kman: Their first album was cool, but then they sold out, man…
shortstop
@gogol’s wife: Making an out-of-left-field assumption that I need the word “fuck” in scripts to pronounce the writing good? Now that’s lazy.
Look, we’ve had this conversation before. To paraphrase what I said then, the writing in Gosford Park is outstanding, so I know Fellowes is capable of good work. (He’s capable of it in Downton, too, but apparently nine-tenths of his labor is reserved for the dowager, and no, I’m not suggesting that every character needs to be acerbic. Just more interesting.) I’ve also acknowledged before that a smart script that works in a small-audience feature film isn’t going to work in a TV series for a mass audience. Even taking that into consideration, the writing in Downton is execrable.
constitutional mistermix
Agree with everyone giving Maggie Smith 5 points for Gryffindor for her performance, and the lines the Fellowes gives her.
shortstop
@Kman: I had high hopes for Thomas becoming a complex, fun-to-watch character when they outed him. Alas, he now has two flat settings: sad gay man who can’t live an authentic life trapped in his era and station (this apparently limited to occasional throwaway references to his plight, but maybe they’ll do something worthwhile with it again this season), and vicious schemer. The second one is so phoned in now it’s completely without menace.
gogol's wife
@shortstop:
You still haven’t named a television show that has better writing.
shortstop
@constitutional mistermix: I saw her on the London stage in the 1980s…so long ago that I still qualified for half-price student tickets. She had the lead role in Lettice and Lovage, which Peter Shaffer wrote especially for her. Absolutely one of the best theatergoing experiences of my life. She is just a remarkable talent.
gogol's wife
@raven:
It’s a joke, it’s a good joke, but I was just pointing out that it’s been done. I’m sure The Wire has great writing. How many other shows do?
raven
@gogol’s wife: Game Day?
raven
Orange is the New Black. Boardwalk Empire. Olive KItteridge.
gogol's wife
@shortstop:
His scene with Jimmy this week was extremely moving. What television show has better acting than that?
It’s been a soap opera from Day 1 (and Gosford Park was too). I like soap operas, when they’re good. And it is.
hitchhiker
Oh, I still watch . . . while chopping vegetables, with white wine, a day or two after it airs.
Good: what most of you have said. Violet, Violet, Violet. Costumes! Mrs. Patmore. Daisy. More costumes!
Dull: Mary. (Is she supposed to be sexy?) Almost all the relationships between the upstairs family members. They’re wooden people. That little Marigold tot better hope she gets to stay with the nice, normal folk.
Miss: The sense that we know more about what’s happening outside their world than they do, when it comes to big things. The Titanic was a great hook. The war. Now we get the freaking wireless, and Lord G saying it’s a fad? Meh.
Hope for: Something to be at stake besides whether Mary is happy!
Lurker
The show gets really more interesting as season 5 proceeds apace. Here in Europe, we are a few episodes ahead of the US. I won’t be a spoiler. Keep watching it.
shortstop
@gogol’s wife: Didn’t I? We’ve got tons of old threads here in which we talk about intelligently written TV shows representing different eras, but, based on your history of comments on this topic, I think you’d just dismiss these as apples to oranges, wouldn’t you? I came as close as I could by comparing English country house period pieces that were actually written by the same guy — and gave him a break by conceding that TV is not cinema. I also think that most dramas/mysteries on PBS greatly outrank Downton in the writing department (to the point that I often wonder why Downton‘s not on a commercial network).
gogol's wife
@Lurker:
I thought Season 4 was rather dull, despite the big event with Anna. But now that Season 5 has begun, I can see where he’s laid the groundwork for storylines to come to fruition. I got heartily sick of Thomas and Miss Baxter last season, but that is getting much more interesting and the actress is getting some wonderful scenes. Don’t tell us anything more! I already got a spoiler just because I read an article about Joanne Froggatt getting the Golden Globes award.
gogol's wife
@shortstop:
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I don’t know any single person who has accomplished what Fellowes has accomplished in the four-plus seasons of Downton Abbey that I have seen. For me his achievement is rivaling Trollope’s. There is a lot of tripe on PBS, some of it even written by Mark Gatiss (that Poirot episode about “The Big Four,” anyone)? I can’t stand graphic violence, having experienced it close to home, so most of the “acclaimed” dramas on television are out for me.
shortstop
@gogol’s wife:
Me, too.
@Lurker: Good to hear. I’ll be interested to see how they manage the increasingly tricky balancing act of acknowledging our modern sensibilities while remaining true to the mores of the era. Sometimes Fellowes does rather well but most times it’s a bit schizophrenic.
daveNYC
@geg6: I think both the upstairs and downstairs crew have potential, but the show barely manages to tap into that potential.
1) Daisy: She want’s to learn math and better herself, good, but the previous seasons have set her up as so clueless that I’m having a hard time buying it.
2) Thomas: He’s gay. Oh my god, they could do so much with this. If nothing else, maybe give the evil bastard some reasonable motive for what he does. Like maybe if society is forcing him to be miserable than he’ll return the favor. Or better, have him hang with Tom and the Teacher, they’re revolutionaries, maybe they can get his hopes up for some societal acceptance of homosexuals. Or we could just go with a blackmail for gossip plan, yeah.
3) Anna and Bates: A May-December romance between servants! How do they balance their home life with their duties? Do they talk shop when they’re together? Anna is young enough, how come she’s not preggers? Instead, Anna is raped and is sad, but then gets happy again. Plus another Bates murder.
4) Blonde footman guy: He knows Thomas is gay, Thomas has feelings for him! An actual emotional connection that doesn’t involve backstabbing, awesome. Nope, he bangs a guest and is shown the door.
5) Rose: Youthful adventures in the endtimes of the gentry! Actually, she just wants a radio.
6) Edith: The second sister with only her name trying to make it in the world. Lets flip through the Book of Job and see if there’s anything else we can inflict on her.
7) Mary: Attempting to run the estate as a co-equal with Tom and Dad. Or maybe, just have her try and choose between pig guy and random noble dude.
8) Tom and Teacher: Tom’s getting in touch with his revolutionary roots? Maybe, but Teacher’s just too damn rude to be interesting, especially since the barbs between Violet and Isobel are so entertaining.
9) Carson and Hughes: Potential conflict as they preside over the slow decline of their way of life, with Hughes being happy that people are moving on to better things and Carson devoted to keeping things running as they are. Barely touched upon.
It really doesn’t help that there’s a good twelve or so characters split between two environments that prevent interaction between half of them at any given time (downstairs characters don’t interact upstairs and vice versa) and only 60 minutes to do anything with them in any one episode. Just this season the long term plots appear to be:
1) Edith and her kid
2) Thomas being evil
3) Mary getting laid or married
4) Tom and Teacher
5) The Dowager and Isobel something or other
6) Daisy attempting to rub two brain cells together
7) The continuing adventures of Bates and the British justice system
That’s seven plots to try and advance over the course of 60 minutes, and that’s not even getting into whatever they come up with as the episode’s main event (Rose’s radio quest, the WWI memorial, whatever dinner party they’ll be doing next week or something). There’s just too much there to cover in depth and get some good story and development going if you’re stuck doing five minute scenes in order to make sure that everything gets some coverage. And that’s not even getting into the fact that about half those plots are boring as hell.
Long story short, I don’t think you can have a good show that has that many characters that runs using conflict generated from internal pressures. What you can do is have an external pressure creating conflict for each of the characters and then show their different ways of dealing with things and have that work much better. Especially since the different characters will end up having responses that conflict with each other that will then generate their own drama.
raven
Gettin awfully close to spoilers here.
raven
@daveNYC: Don’t forget the dog.
Buddy H
@raven:
During the fire, I confess my first thought was “where’s the dog?!”
shortstop
@daveNYC: That was funny as hell besides being dead on.
shortstop
@Buddy H: She was looking intently off-camera at the trainer and wagging her tail, like she usually does. That is one cute dog.
Buddy H
The bit about Daisy being clueless… I wonder if she is undiagnosed dyslexic. A person at that time and place would just accept that they are “stupid” and continue in service. Is Fellowes hinting at that when he has her say she can’t make sense out of books?
Betty Cracker
I almost started a Downton thread Sunday night, but my kid made me watch the Golden Globes with her instead. I agree with much of what has been said here — both positive and negative. DA is a soap opera and has always been a soap opera, but the acting and staging are first-rate. I agree that the show has lost a step, but they can get their mojo back.
I hope part of that mojo retrieval involves Edith developing some awareness about how ridiculous the class divisions are. What better demonstration does she need of the absurdity of the system than the circumstances of the Earl’s grandchildren, known and unknown? I’d also be happy if Edith pulled off an elaborate plot to sell Mary into indentured servitude in some godforsaken backwater.
The most virtuous character by far is Isis.
JGabriel
@gogol’s wife:
Downton has good writing, albeit frequently crap plotting, but it’s not the best written show ever. Just off the top of my head, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Firefly, Deadwood, Justified, the first 4 seasons of The West Wing, and The Good Wife are all equally or better written — particularly to the extent that more than one character gets good lines.
JPL
whoops..
JPL
Since I’m in moderation, I’m going to rewrite my comment….
This is a spoiler of last week’s episode.
Joanne Froggatt was once again terrific while trying to buy a d…iap…hra…gm at the pharmacy. She also made some important statements about women’s rights. The show still has some worthy story lines.
HumboldtBlue
@Betty Cracker: They have absolutely wasted Edith as a character and it’s time for the goddamned Bates’s to go away forever. If I have to listen to Anna hiss out Mr. Batessssssssssss one more goddamned time I am gonna beat Carson about the head and shoulders with Daisy’s dead body.
Be prepared for some more very odd plot twists (I have already watched season 5) and the wasting away of Tom as a character (he can’t wait to leave the show and do other acting jobs, I just watched him with Cumberbatch in “The Imitation Game”) and at this point I can only hope the writers of “Peaky Blinders” gets together with Fellowes and works in some of those compelling characters to Downton which has just simply stagnated.
Molesley continues to be one of the best acted characters on television, however.
JPL
Third time is a charm.. word press keeps putting my comment in mod.
Last week’s episode involved Anna/Joanne shopping for Mary. It was an important scene about families and planning.
daveNYC
Right, so who here would trade both their kidneys for a scene with Al Swearengen talking with Violet Crawley?
JPL
@HumboldtBlue: I definitely agree about Edith. She has gone in so many directions since the start of the series.
gogol's wife
@HumboldtBlue:
I hope Tom has better luck than Matthew has.
gogol's wife
@HumboldtBlue:
Kevin Doyle is fantastic. I will say, while generally defending Julian Fellowes, the slapstick stuff with Molesley is tedious and unfunny. But the actor is wonderful.
shortstop
OT, the next time the man hits me up for love, sweet love, I’m going to cheerfully reply a la Lady Mary, “You can’t say fairer than that!” He’ll be all, “Cara mia, that British; it drives me wiiiiild!”
Mike in NC
“Upstairs, Downstairs” was a better show, but that was 30+ years ago.
JenJen
The show has become impossibly soapy (Edith’s storyline is ridiculous), but it’s still a guilty pleasure and delight to watch if only for the wonderfully bitchy Dowager Countess.
ETA: Thank god none of my bosses have ever asked me to run into town and pick up a diaphragm for them…
Grumpy Code Monkey
Something that they kind of danced around with Molesly that I’d like to see them pursue a bit is how the little people manage to make a living in a rural county. Lord G goes on about employing people and how the estate has to “support the house”, but it’s clear that opportunities are limited. If you’re not a footman, you’re a delivery boy or a road worker or a farmer. And God knows those jobs wouldn’t have been numerous, either.
Factory work would be a way out; think about that for a minute. And more often than not, the toffs were cash-poor themselves. All the Crawley wealth is in the land. The show doesn’t have to be about these things (it can still be a soap opera), but it can at least pull in some of those details to add a little interest. Have Tom organize a union at a local factory; that’ll make for some fun dinner conversation with Lord G and the Dowager.
Hugh Bonneville was on “Wait Wait, Don’t Tell Me” last year and kind of admitted that Downton wasn’t all that highbrow – roughly paraphrased, “it’s a period drama so you think you’re watching something intelligent”. And again, for what it is, it’s done well, but the well is running dry rapidly.
Lectriclady
Did anyone else enjoy Julian Fellows role as Kilwillie in Monarch of the Glen?
scuffletuffle
@raven: Not rubbers, a diaphragm aka Dutch Cap. I loved that because it shows how far women have not come. Apparently the pharmacist still gets to determine whether or not we are “protection worthy.” Also, I see Bates finding out and suspecting that Anna is using it to not give him the baby he wants.
dopealope
I could never get past the first few episodes, which surprised me given how much I love “Gosford Park”. Set in a similar time period, but in a much different social class, the BBC show “Pinky Blinders” is really excellent. I was truly sad when I came to the end of season two and have to wait for season three to be produced. If you haven’t watched it, give it a chance.
Cervantes
@raven:
@JenJen:
Did not watch the show but, given that the season is set in 1924, I’d guess the lady ordered a cervical cap, not precisely a diaphragm, and most certainly not condoms.
@Lectriclady:
Did not watch that show, either, but I did read and enjoy the book, a very long time ago.
Betty Cracker
@HumboldtBlue: I like Molesley — the poor bastard can’t catch a break.
Cervantes
@scuffletuffle:
Remember, too, that the pharmacist was expected to obey the law.
gogol's wife
@Cervantes:
Do you happen to know what kind of contraception would be available to women in Europe ca. 1877?
scuffletuffle
@Cervantes: Funny you mentioned that…it just occurred to me that she didn’t ask Anna if she had her husband’s permission to use protection. My guess is that would have been required at the time. Hmmmm. time for some googling.
wormtown
How about when Mary said (first ep, maybe?) “And now I think I will go upstairs and take off my hat?”.
I vote guilty pleasure; and root for a happy ending for Edith. Maybe the beau in Germany is doing something heroic.
Cervantes
@gogol’s wife:
Very droll — but the answer depends largely on which woman you’re asking about, and in which country.
Around the time you’re asking about, a key date is the invention of galvanized rubber.
gogol's wife
@Cervantes:
I wasn’t trying to be droll. I seriously would like to know. Anna Karenina uses some form of contraception that her lover doesn’t know about, and I’ve wondered what it could be.
ETA: She’s in Russia but has access to the latest gadgets from England.
Cervantes
@gogol’s wife:
I like droll.
Anyhow, women have used blocking (and other) devices as contraceptives for a long, long time. I’ll re-read that bit of Tolstoy and maybe something particular will come to mind.
PS: Earlier, I meant vulcanized rubber. No idea why I said “galvanized”: it’s nonsense.
kindness
Never really was able to get worked up for it. Same with Walking Dead, for different reasons though. Walking Dead didn’t work for me because I don’t understand this country it is taking place in where no one has all the guns and ammo they would need to off the zombies right off the bat.
Looking forward to April’s start of Game of Thrones.
Rafer Janders
For me one key problem with the show has become the increasingly unrealistic gap between show time (1912-1924) and real time (1910-1914). Thirteen years have passed in show time, but none of the characters look or act that much older, because only about four-five years have passed in real time.
It’s obvious that Fallows didn’t expect the show to last as long as it did. And given that, Fallows has had to write the new seasons in increasingly (decreasingly?) shorter time increments. The first season, remember, went from 1912 to 1914. The second season jumped a few years, picked up in 1916, sped through the war and then ended in 1919. And so seasons three to five have crawled through 1920-1924, a time of far less historical interest and significance than the war years.
The characters simply have not aged, have not changed as people, as much as you would expect them to over the course of 13 years.
Rafer Janders
Fellowes, not Fallows, damnit.
Gin & Tonic
@Cervantes: Well, if you coat the rubber in molten zinc, it’s not nonsense. Wouldn’t make a good contraceptive, though.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@gogol’s wife:
It would be a diaphragm of some sort. They’ve been around since the mid-1800s at least and were not always made of rubber.
HumboldtBlue
@kindness: Watch the first two seasons of “Peaky Blinders”. It’s available on Netfilx and features some outstanding acting from Cillian Murphy and his oddly square and photogenic face as well as from Paul Anderson (a brilliant actor), and some solid work from Sam Neill and Tom Hardy. It’s got enough violence and enough storyline symmetry to capture your attention.
HumboldtBlue
@gogol’s wife: Even when they had him clownish I thought Doyle portrayed him beautifully. He takes what would normally be a shallow secondary character and adds an extraordinarily poignant depth to a man who has obviously got some education and who is more than a servant. He is one of the few truly “real” people in a world of undeserved privilege and shallowness.
Gretchen
The Thomas-Sybil subplot could have been really interesting. The Irish rebellion was a huge story, and Tom was part of it, and they just dropped that narrative when Sybil died and made him the gardener. He was much more interesting as the revolutionary.
El Tiburon
I binged it a few weeks ago. Addicting, I dare say.
I’ve wondered if some of the characters who were killed off, were done just because, or if the actors were ready to move on.
Also, the chap that played the now deceased Matthew Crawley, Dan Stevens, is unrecognizable in “The Guest”.
gogol's wife
@Gretchen:
The actress who played Sybil wanted to leave, so I think Fellowes has to work around that kind of thing.
El Tiburon
@daveNYC:
Overall, I thought this storyline had relevance in reminding how incidents like rape were handled back then. The rapist was allowed back in and nothing was ever really done about him. All ‘hush hush’ and so on. Not too different how it is today.
As far as silly storylines: the return of the guy who supposedly died on the Titanic, now all burned up, to come on one show then disappear. what’s up with that?
HumboldtBlue
@El Tiburon: Stevens wanted to move on as did O’Brian, and even Tom Branson thinks the show should have ended after four seasons and he’s done after season 5 I am pretty sure.
daveNYC
Siobhan Finneran (O’Brien) got a nice enough spot on Happy Valley. Not nearly as front and center as O’Brien tended to be, but she was playing a far more interesting character.
bemused
I got curious about the book and what birth control methods were available then. It was written by Marie Stopes and called Married Love. It mentioned sponges soaked in olive oil and the gold tip which I presume is what Mary wanted Anna to purchase for her. There was more birth control methods to use at the time than I thought if only women knew about the book, could get their hands on it for the information and then buy the supplies. Not easy especially for poorer women.
How infuriating that 21st century American RWNJ’s want to go right back to that era.
daveNYC
@El Tiburon:
I’m everyone – and no one. Everywhere – nowhere. Call me… Darkman.
The rape story could have been much better, it’s all part of the package of having eleventy different characters and plots in a season that only runs seven or eight episodes.
the Conster
@BGinCHI:
I watched it from the first moment to the last and watched a few of the episodes twice, because it was just that good and I didn’t want to miss any glance or comment or clue. Great show, beautifully filmed. FYI, the actors James Nesbitt and the guy who played the older French detective were important characters in the movie, The Way – another wonderful movie no one saw, by Emilio Estevez and starring Martin Sheen. It takes place on the Camino de Santiago, and is basically a riff on The Wizard of Oz. James Nesbitt plays an Irish writer, walking the Camino to clear his writer’s block.
HumboldtBlue
I think the first three seasons were brilliant for how they portrayed what life was like for women and how much the social mores have changed. Daisy was always a fascinating character to me because she was on the bottom rung of that society with little to no chance to move ahead and yet she learned a skill that today would have her replacing Rachel Ray on TV.
The laws against inheritance, the hidden sexuality, the struggle of the maid impregnated by the cad officer who is then left to fend for herself all the while Daisy, a very reluctant wife indeed, benefits from the death of a man wounded in the war, a man she never loved and never wanted to marry in the first place.
I thought the focus on the women in those first three seasons was why it was such a compelling show — Sybil and her righteousness, Edith and her silliness, Mary and her privilege, all cast against the drudgery of the downstairs women and how they faced very similar struggles from very different vantage points and just how stacked the deck was against the gender.
Of course, Fallowes completely ignored my second favorite character behind Molesley, Rosamund Painswick. There has never been a better dressed character on any TV show, that woman could carry some period dresses and that blue and orange number she wore when chastising and helping Edith was simply stunning.
gogol's wife
@HumboldtBlue:
Samantha Bond steals every scene she’s in.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
You know what I like? That fuckin’ black darjeeling
Kathy Gustafson
@rikyrah: Why is Edith moping around Downton? Her gentleman friend left her in control of his publishing empire. Fellows drops the ball on interesting plot lines like that and goes back to Bates and the “murder” storyline.
Tom and Mary would be a better match than any of the options offered either of them. Sarah Bunting? Blech. Mary’s thing one and thing two? Which is which? Yawn.
How about Cora getting it on with Richard E. Grant?
Sigh. I watch for the clothes. It’s my favorite fashion era.
HumboldtBlue
For those who won’t mind a spoiler, Jack Seale’s reviews of all the episodes are a must-read, he’s very funny.
Also, Shit the Dowager Countess says
Bonnie
I stopped watching it when they killed off Matthew. By then, way too many characters had been killed off. It was tiresome.
Kent
Edith’s lover disappears in season 4 which was what? 1923? At that point the Nazis were mostly a few ex-soldiers kvetching over their beers. A wealthy aristocratic Brit would hardly have crossed their paths in early 1920s Germany much less been any sort of conceivable target for foul play.
What I thought the show could have done a lot better is capture the post war malaise that swept through Europe. Parade’s End and the Razor’s Edge do a better job of capturing this period. I just don’t find it believable that everyone just go back to life as before and the only debate about the war is whether to site the memorial in a garden or town square.
So when is Dr. Clarkson ever going to get off his rear end and snag up Isobel?
Cervantes
@Kent:
Wouldn’t say that. By that time, Hitler was already a Nazi leader and thousands of people showed up to hear him speak.
EthylEster
@gogol’s wife: Nurse Jackie. The Big C. Last Tango in Halifax.
HumboldtBlue
@Cervantes: The beer hall putsch took place in 1923, Hitler was well on his way to building his base among the disaffected.
Cervantes
@HumboldtBlue:
Late in 1923, and it failed, more or less, but I agree.
gogol's wife
@EthylEster:
Last Tango in Halifax? You’re kidding, right?
debbie
@Betty Cracker:
There was a DA thread on Sunday and I got a bit of scorn for disparaging Edith. I find her totally unlikeable. Someone here has criticized Mary for being too mean to Edith, but I would point to a scene in the first or second season when Edith very visibly gloated at the dinner table when Mary was distressed about something (probably some argument with Matthew). Like attracts like, I guess.
This show’s been enjoyable enough to watch, but it pales badly in comparison to Brideshead Revisited. Nothing will ever surpass that series, in plot or in production quality.
Cervantes
@debbie:
Julian Fellowes and Evelyn Waugh are simply not comparable.
debbie
@Cervantes:
Agreed. Brideshead Revisited is much more than a costume drama, whereas Downton Abby isn’t. I still love that book!
xian
cervical cap
the titanic guy was a fraud
mom has probably been hearing her daughters snipe at each other at table for decades now
Lady Rose = Cousin Oliver