Leave it to Kanye West to make an otherwise uninspiring Grammy award show interesting. As Beck was about to accept his award for Album of the Year, Kanye looked like he was about to step onstage and interrupt him as he had Taylor Swift during the 2009 VMAs in favor of Beyonce. Although many saw it as a prank, West had some choice words in an interview later that night:
When you keep on diminishing art, and not respecting the craft, and smacking people in the face after they deliver monumental feats of music, you’re disrespectful to inspiration. We, as musicians, have to inspire people who go to work every day, and they listen to that Beyoncé album, and they feel like it takes them to a different place. … And by the way, I got my wife, my daughter, and I got my clothing line, so I’m not going to do nothing that would put my daughter at risk, but I am here to fight for creativity.
Say what you want about Kanye’s theatrics, the man makes some valid points.
Team Blackness also discussed the power of Prince, measles parties, and a #BlackLivesMatter course now offered at Dartmouth College.
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dan
Yeah, no.
kc
No, he doesn’t.
GregB
What was that President Obama said about Kanye West?
SatanicPanic
Kanye West is a national treasure, and people getting mad at him are ridiculous.
kc
Kanye has a long history of making a total ass of himself at awards shows (T Swift wasn’t even the first time).
He’s talented, but his obsession with bullshit industry awards shows is pathetic.
And surely I can’t be the only person who thinks his repeatedly making scenes purportedly on Beyonce’s behalf is insulting not just to the artists he’s upstaging, but to Bey herself.
SatanicPanic
@kc: so wanting the shows to be better is a bad thing?
Joshua James
Has Kanye ever given up an award to a more deserving artist?
I remember Ving Rhames giving up an award (I think it was a Globe) and giving it to Jack Lemon, who Ving thought was more deserving… has Kanye ever walked the walk, or just talked the talk?
Nick
Valid points? What the fuck? Kanye is a complete fucking douchebag. What real artist gives two fucks about an award? Also, anyone who marries a Kardashian is a publicity seeking fuckwad.
kc
@SatanicPanic:
No, Kanye grandstanding and insulting other artists is a bad thing. Fuck him.
Punchy
Such as?
Sounds suspiciously like a very sore loser.
SatanicPanic
@kc: why? part of hip-hop is insulting other artists. telling him not to is like asking a heavy metal guitarist not to play solos. At any rate, I don’t see what the point of getting all angry about it is. He was right both times, Beyonce should have won over both Beck and Taylor Swift
kc
I might be slightly less disgusted by Kanye’s behavior if he had been caping for Ledisi, rather than Beyonce, who’s not exactly a starving artist.
Actually, no, scratch that. If Kanye really cared about promoting someone not named Kanye, he’d find ways to do it that don’t put Kanye in the spotlight.
Kylroy
Sorry, no, he’s just an ass, and the points he has to deliver do not remotely begin to eclipse the spectacle his outbursts generate (which I think is the point).
I was with him on the “George Bush doesn’t care about black people” thing, but he’s gotten increasingly petty over time. Taylor Swift is mediocre, but her mediocrity wasn’t worth rushing the stage over. And Beck is getting this one more as career recognition than for the specific album, but he’s ten times the musician Taylor Swift is.
His similarities to Mr. “Soy Bomb” are starting to overshadow his musical genius. I’d rather he didn’t go any further down this road.
SatanicPanic
@Joshua James: Where’s an example of a song/album where he should have? Otis was a kind of weak song, but the songs it beat out weren’t exactly great either. Struggling to think of another.
Bitter Scribe
Valid points my ass. Why does he get to decide that Beyonce is a more worthy artist than Beck?
kc
@SatanicPanic:
1) TAYLOR SWIFT? Chickenshit move. He had any fucking balls, he’d insult Beyonce.
2) I won’t be looking to you to explain hip-hop.
Limited view of hip-hop you have. That aside, it would be awesome if the next time Kanye wins an award, a heavy metal guitarist jumped on stage in front of him and started shredding.
Sorry, no. Beyonce’s vid was better than Swift’s (not that that justifiies Kanye’s douchebaggery), but Beck’s album was better.
burnspbesq
Beck was a deserving winner. Period, full stop. Kanye needs to get his head out of his ass.
Juju
The only valid point Kanye West makes is that he is a giant a$$hole…with hemorrhoids.
kc
@SatanicPanic:
LOL.
john b
@Joshua James: He has given up an award of his at least 3 times. Someone shared some videos from previous award shows in response to all of this. He gave Rapper of the Year to Big Boi and some other Hip Hop awared to Lil Wayne. He also said at one point that Amy Winehouse (iirc) deserved an award more than him.
Buddy H
I’m old enough to remember when it wasn’t cool to care too much about awards. I remember the Beatles getting awards and treating it like a big joke. Lennon got an award for his “In His Own Write” book, and wasn’t especially thrilled to be at the ceremony. And they got high before they accepted the MBE from Herself.
I like Kanye and I like Beyonce. I just find it weird that he’s so passionate about getting the approval of the grammy academy.
Kylroy
@SatanicPanic: …really? You’re going to argue that hip-hop artists are somehow inauthentic if they don’t make asses of themselves at award shows?
And arguing whether an award is “right” is something that, as has been pointed out, most artists just shrug about. The Taylor Swift episode was easy pickings (what music enthusiast will argue for Taylor Swift?), but here he’s running into a career vs. performance call. Beck is a talented musician, and he’s handling Kanye dismissing his work way better than I would in the same situation.
SatanicPanic
@kc: Why would he insult Beyonce? That makes no sense.
And Beck’s album was better? OK, that’s an opinion and you’re welcome to it. But we should also take into account that it wasn’t hugely successful and that Beck isn’t really relevant as a cultural figure in 2015. If we just want to go giving out awards to random people who made a nice album that’s fine, but that kind of navel-gazing isn’t really going to advance anything IMHO.
john b
@Buddy H:
Kanye actually keeps none of his awards. He’s been quoted as saying something like “My biggest award is what I’m about to do.”
Alex
Elon, I love ya, and I hold no brief for Beck, but there is no more bland, unoriginal, uncreative, team-managed pop star on the scene today than Beyonce Knowles. It’s all hype, and nothing more.
SatanicPanic
@Kylroy: No, I’m saying that taking shots at people is something rappers often do and it’s generally not a bad thing
kc
@Buddy H:
.
He really needs validation.
kc
@SatanicPanic:
You’re right. All the awards should just go to the biggest sellers.
Tree With Water
@kc: @Buddy H: The story I heard was that Lennon was massively hungover the day he received the award for his book. When he got to mic, he was still so sick from drink that all he could say was, “You’ve got a lucky face”, and then he sat down again. It was typical Lennon gibberish. Reportedly, however, everyone there thought it brilliantly clever and it got a big laugh. Like Ringo later said, those were the days when they couldn’t lose if they tried.
SatanicPanic
@kc: I didn’t say that. But I think that someone should pass a minimum bar for cultural relevance before we say they made the best album of the year. Who even knew Beck was still making records? When was the last time you heard a song of his produced in this century on the radio?
Penus
I think you’ve got it completely backwards. He’s (subjectively) wrong about Beck vs. Beyonce, but it’s bullshit (and, frankly, a little bit racist) that people are up in arms about him getting on stage at award shows.
Marci Kiser
Um.
Maybe, just maybe, Beyonce doesn’t need a black man trying to white knight her.
Seriously, there is some macho sexist bullshit going on that he assumes she needs him to keep pulling this nonsense.
SatanicPanic
@Alex: I suppose that whole Feminist thing was a ploy by her managers to sell records? It was a weird one if it was.
Rex Tremendae
@SatanicPanic:
Do you feel the same way about movies? Because I hate to be the one to tell you this, but Hunger Games probably isn’t going to win Best Picture this year.
burnspbesq
@SatanicPanic:
Wayne Shorter is a national treasure. Sonny Rollins is a national treasure. Buddy Guy is a national treasure. Smokey Robinson is a national treasure. Jason Moran is a national treasure. Eric Owens is a national treasure. Louis Armstrong, Robert Johnson, Ella Fitzgerald, Miles Davis, Billie Holiday, John Coltrane, Duke Ellington, Leontyne Price, Shirley Verrett, Count Basie, Sarah Vaughan, Muddy Waters, Howlin’ Wolf, Sam Cooke, Otis Redding, Marvin Gaye, Jimi Hendrix were national treasures.
Are you seriously arguing that Kanye West belongs on that list?
Yoda Dog
@SatanicPanic: Im with Nick, man… Why the hell does this turd get to shit all over everything and you’re totally cool with it? Because I know you just said some stuff above there but I still dont follow you..
I’ll grant you the “He was right, Bey deserved it..” bit because, frankly, I could give two fucks about the award and I dont listen to top 40 shit just because eveyone else seems consider it their only choice the only thing relevant anymore without a second thought…. So yea, Im not real up and Kimye and Bey’s latest artistic achievements and you could certainly be right about their just desserts. But Ive heard their stuff before and for my money?, nah… Beck could take a dump and it would be a greater piece of artwork than Beyonce or Kanye’s greatest respective masterpieces.
But whether he was right or wrong is totally immaterial. Fuck him, he’s a glorified poser and why any grownups ever give a fuck what he thinks will never cease to amaze me.
Rex Tremendae
@Marci Kiser:
I was listening to the hip-hop station on XM radio, and the host (Ed Lover) I think was making this point. Why does Kanye think its his job to speak for Beyonce?
He was also sticking up for Beck as a talented musician.
SatanicPanic
@burnspbesq: Absolutely. Name one person who’s made as many groundbreaking albums this century or influenced any one genre to the same degree.
I mean, you’re free to not like hip-hop, but you can’t deny his importance to it
kc
@Marci Kiser:
I am pretty surprised that more people aren’t talking about that angle. His behavior diminishes and belittles Beyonce imo.
Of course he’s just using Beyonce as a pretext; it’s more about getting Kanye’s face on TV.
SatanicPanic
@Rex Tremendae: I didn’t see Hunger Games, but yes, a movie should at least be a household name before it wins Best Picture. Doesn’t mean Transformers should win, but it also doesn’t mean some indie movie that made $1 million should win either.
Yoda Dog
@SatanicPanic: Why shouldnt the best movie nominated win, regardless? How persistently/effectively a movie is marketed isn’t directly proportional to the quality of the movie at hand… is it?
john b
@Rex Tremendae: This isn’t about who is a better musician. It’s about a better album and people who bring up anything about Beck’s or Beyonce’s individual talents is completely missing the point. This is about best album. Whether made by one person or 100 people.
burnspbesq
@SatanicPanic:
OK. In fact, I’ll give you two. Jason Moran. Alison Krauss.
And the construct is unfair to someone like Eric Owens. No one artist “influences” opera, but when you are the definitive performer of your generation in one of the great roles (Alberich), that counts. People will be listening to the 2012-13 Met Ring Cycle long after every Kanye West download has been wiped.
Sales is a crappy way to measure artistic merit.
SatanicPanic
@Yoda Dog: I don’t think the mass market is as stupid as you think it is
Rex Tremendae
@SatanicPanic:
I can’t wait until American Sniper loses to something that made 1/10th the money, and Fox News goes bonkers over it. Hey, maybe some wingnut actor can rush the stage and do what Kanye did. They can read from your script.
john b
@burnspbesq: You clearly have no understanding of Kanye’s accomplishments and influence far outside of commercial accomplishments. Hell, his sales of his actual albums aren’t exactly monumental, but his influence has been. He has ushered in completely new aesthetics to hip hop multiple times. He literally completely changed the game, like at least three times in his career.
And the fact that artists can’t influence opera these days speaks a lot more to decline in opera’s relevance as an art form (and this is coming from a guy who loves opera, especially contemporary opera).
Rex Tremendae
@john b: For the record, I’m not interested in either album. I’m opposing Kanye’s belief that it is OUTRAGEOUS that Beyonce didn’t win.
If the reverse were true (let’s say, Wayne Coyne rushes the stage in defense of Beck), I’d be equally annoyed by him.
Yoda Dog
@SatanicPanic: Indeed, clearly you and I disagree on that one. 15 year old girls buy records man. Thats it. Thats what I think you’re missing here. Thats the mass market to which you’re referring…
john b
@Rex Tremendae: I was responding to the part that Ed Lover had defended Beck as a talented musician (and I’ve seen lots of people talk about how many writers Beyonce needs compared to Beck who can play 4000 instruments). It’s irrelevant. Best album isn’t about people, it’s about their work in album form.
SatanicPanic
@burnspbesq: I don’t know this Jason Moran, but if he can plausibly claim to have changed his entire genre and the way people make music in it (like Kanye can), that’s great, but the fact that I have never heard of him makes it a bit harder for me to accept that he’s a national treasure.
SatanicPanic
@Rex Tremendae: I didn’t see that movie either. Honestly I don’t care about movies, so a movie discussion is going to go over my head no matter what you bring up.
Joshua James
@john b: Fair enough, then.
Alex
@SatanicPanic: I think it absolutely was. Anyone remotely familiar with Beyonce’s career knows that every last aspect of her public persona is micro-managed to the last particular. This includes her calculated, planned, fabricated removal of her ear plug during her inauguration performance (anyone who believes that was spontaneous is too credulous to swallow on their own volition).
Beyonce would not have performed in front of a “FEMINISM” sign if her management team hadn’t focus-grouped that gesture for at least nine months prior. It might sound cynical, but it’s more reflective of show business than anything.
It’s just hard to truck anyone who thinks she’s somehow less packaged than the Taylor Swifts of the world.
Penus
@Rex Tremendae: And you’d be one of the few. Jarvis Cocker rushed the stage when Michael Jackson was performing and people wanted to knight him. The Beastie Boys did it at the Video Music Awards and folks ate it up. The anger on this story is about a black man who doesn’t know his place.
SatanicPanic
@Alex: How do you know she’s not micro-managing herself?
ETA- I mean people say the same thing about Taylor Swift, but no one thinks Taylor isn’t bright enough to understand her own career
burnspbesq
@john b:
Probably not. After a number of years in which no rap or hip-hop artist came close to making a record as good or as compelling as “The Message,” I kinda lost interest.
dan
@Penus: “The anger on this story is about a black man who doesn’t know his place.”
Yeah. That MUST be it.
burnspbesq
@SatanicPanic:
Well, this conversation has reached the cup-de-sac that it was inevitably headed for. I’m don’t mind admitting that i’m ignorant of developments in hip-hop. You’re obviously ignorant of developments in jazz. Fine. So be it. There are more things in heaven and on earth, dear Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Out.
Alex
@SatanicPanic: Didn’t mean to imply that she wasn’t involved in her own management, even spearheading it (I wouldn’t know, and neither do you). What I object to is the hype-driven groupthink among some people that she somehow separates herself from the pack with her talent, her creativity, and/or her originality. Nonsense.
She is a tremendously disciplined performance artist who is more “famous for being famous” than anything else (like others!). Her musical abilities are simply not distinctively talented, creative, nor original.
kc
@SatanicPanic:
It’s time we acknowledge that Cher is a greater artist than Kanye Kardashian: She was using autotune before Kanye ever heard of it.
kindness
Shit I wasn’t sure if this thread was a Snark fishing expedition or real and here I see a couple(one) folks with their panties all in an excruciating twist supporting Kanye.
BwwaaHaHahaha. That is too rich. Seriously, I can’t believe you would get on a decent sized blog and say any such thing. Have you at long last no shame?
kc
So did anyone watch “Better Call Saul?”
Marci Kiser
@Penus: I can’t speak to “the anger” on this story. I can only say that my anger is not with a black man who doesn’t know his place, but with someone who thinks that Beyonce’s place is under his protection.
Beyonce is famous on a global level and has a huge public platform open to her. Yet he believes that she needs him, unasked, to not only fight her battles but to pick them as well. What does that say about his opinion of the average woman?
RobertB
There’s no such thing as bad publicity; for a musician anyway. Kanye has done this before with Gretchen Wilson and with Taylor Swift. Does this hurt or help his record sales? I’d guess there’s not a lot of intersection between either of those back then (Taylor’s more mainstream now) and Kanye.
As an example. ‘Best Heavy Metal Performance’ went to Tenacious D, over Scott Ian, Slipknot, Motorhead, and Mastodon. Ridiculous. I like Tenacious D alright, and I’m not a huge Anthrax fan, but if Scott Ian went and shit on the boss’s desk at Grammy HQ, I’d buy Anthrax’s next album.
Kylroy
@SatanicPanic: Does the fact that millions of people only know Kanye as “that guy who rushes the stage at award shows” help or hurt his case as a national treasure?
I like his music, but I got turned off Kanye the human being after he blew off Harmonix for not being willing to devote a whole game to him.
marduk
@SatanicPanic: On what planet has Kanye “ushered in completely new aesthetics to hip hop multiple times. He literally completely changed the game, like at least three times in his career.”? What kind of top 40 pop garbage radio do you listen to? Kanye doesn’t even belong in the conversation for top 20 hip hop artists of the last 15 years. His production style is to just retread company flow / def jux beats from the early 90s.
Christ you’re like a 13 year old girl gushing about Beiber. Kanye’s a hack.
Kylroy
@RobertB: Then again, the best selling death metal album of all time is from fictional band Dethklok, so there’s a kind of fitting symmetry with the Heavy Metal award going to the parody band.
Judgement call: is Tenacious D getting the Heavy Metal grammy worse than the time they gave it to Jethro Tull?
john b
@marduk: This planet. On what planet did Def Jux exist in the early 90s?
mai naem mobile
I know i sound like an old fart when i say this but I feel like most commercial music sounds like that mashup of the six country music songs that sounded like the.same song. For every popular song, theres ten that sound like it. And they’re all overplayed. Too much packaging and production and not enough originality.
marduk
@john b: Company Flow launched in 1992.
SatanicPanic
@Alex:
We’re going to have to agree to disagree, I find her mix of R & B and pop pretty unique within the context of American pop and she’s a pretty great singer as well. Everyone knows a Beyonce song when they hear one, but the same couldn’t be said of Demi Lovato or Brittney or Rihanna.
@marduk: err, that wasn’t me that said that, but I do agree, and frankly I don’t know what you listen to if you’re discounting his contributions like that.
Mike in NC
@kc: Great new show, but we only caught the last season of “Breaking Bad” and need to binge watch on Netflix to learn more about the character.
Penus
@Marci Kiser: I can’t argue with that. It’s a completely valid point. I just don’t see anyone else criticizing Kanye making similar points.
RobertB
@Kylroy: I don’t know. 1 and 1A?
A laugh for this: cracked.com/article_15856_the-7-most-unforgivable-grammy-award-snubs-all-time.html
kc
Kimye flashback: Kanye says Kim Kardashian should be on Vogue cover, not Michelle Obama.
kc
@Mike in NC:
Have fun catching up on BB; that was a great show.
blueskies
@SatanicPanic:
Really? I did not know that.
I guess that’s reason number 573 for me to continue to ignore hip-hop.
Kylroy
@kc: Thank you. Sometimes an ass is just an ass.
kc
@blueskies:
Don’t let SP turn you off hip-hop; it’s more multi-faceted than he would have you believe.
SatanicPanic
@kindness:
It’s less painful than having a stick up one’s butt like some people on this thread
Mayur
Wow burnsie is trolling this thread hard.
As someone who owns Becks album and not beyonce’s, I’d still say the latter is far more culturally relevant and potentially “deserving” of a Grammy. It’s one of the few pop releases that anyone cares about as an actual album rather than a track, the video format is incredibly innovative and well-done, and the songs are catchy and also performed with an amazing level of talent. Top 40 may not be my “genre” of choice, but Beyoncé has an incredible voice and presence both on stage and in her recordings.
All that said, Kanye is a buffoon. Also, these awards shows give out career trophies disguised as individual awards all the time, so in a sense Beck does deserve this one.
SatanicPanic
@kc: Dude, would you stop misrepresenting what I’m saying? Part of hip-hop is battling. No rational person would deny this. And nearly every prominent rapper has had a beef with someone. I never said it was the only thing. Sheesh.
kc
@Kylroy:
I’d feel more kindly disposed towards Kanye if he displayed just a flash of a sense of humor about himself. But no.
Ironically, though, I don’t have any Beck (or Beyonce) on my Ipod but I do have some Kanye . . . I just wish he wasn’t such an insufferable jerk.
Yoda Dog
@marduk: Jesus, thank you for saying that for me lol…
kc
@SatanicPanic:
I haven’t misrepresented what you said. I was responding to another poster. You’re not doing a very good job advocating for hip-hop.
SatanicPanic
@kc: So you’d prefer that rappers insulting each other is something that doesn’t happen? Some of the best hip-hop has come about that way. Damn
blueskies
@SatanicPanic:
Man, you just cannot make this stuff up.
The mass market is stupid people.
Mayur
@Kylroy: given metal’s current status between self-parody and total irrelevance, I’d actually argue that tenacious D is the perfect choice. Otoh maybe they need to hand out All The Awards as compensation for never giving anything to people who genuinely pioneered the genre.
SatanicPanic
@blueskies: fine dude, let’s just take this to its logical end and get rid of democracy while we’re at it, because there are so many stupid people it just won’t work
kc
@SatanicPanic:
Um, no. Where did I say that? Oh, right, I DIDN’T.
I can’t believe you’re actually using rappers’ beefing with each other to justify Kanye West snatching the mic away from a teenage country singer.
Christ.
It's Not The Fall, It's The Landing
Thanks, johnb and SatanicPanic, for your insistence that Kanye West is some sort of innovative artist. Best laugh I’ve had so far this year!
kc
@SatanicPanic:
No need to be melodramatic. Look, there’s an awards show just for you. It’s called “The People’s Choice Awards.”
Yoda Dog
@blueskies: Its really not though, he’s justa spitballin in the breeze, he is.. Rushing the stage and dissing Beck as lacking artistic integrity is actually NOT, in fact, “part of hip hop”…
blueskies
@SatanicPanic: You continue to prove my point.
SatanicPanic
@kc: You’re saying that in order to advocate for hip-hop I’d have to deny that such a thing exists. I’m not trying to advocate for hip-hop for one, in fact, I said on this thread that I don’t care if people like or don’t like it. I’m just saying that his behavior isn’t out of character for a rapper and I don’t care. I mean, oh poor Taylor Swift, how will she continue on… oh wait, she’s doing just fine. And personally, I find the fact that you need to keep standing up for her insulting. I mean, if Beyonce doesn’t need Kanye standing up for her why does Taylor need you getting all mad on her behalf?
MCA1
@SatanicPanic: Um, yesterday. Your point is absurd regardless. The award is “best,” not “best blend of cultural relevance (measured by sales) and decent musicianship.” Not to mention, the further you trend toward rewarding commercial viability, the more you’re going to end up seeing people like Taylor Swift win Grammy’s.
You’ve missed the point in the criticism of Kanye completely. He might have an argument in a general sense, but choosing to talk about “diminishing art” in the context he did is breathtakingly stupid. Not only is he implying that ultra-glamorized, produced to the nth degree, autotuned pop is great art, but if there’s anyone who respects the “craft” of making good music, and cares about what he’s doing as art, over commerce, it’s Beck Hanson. It’s incredibly insulting to hear Kanye piss on a guy who spent a couple years putting together a fucking book full of sheet music that he thought people could play at home on their pianos, by insinuating he’s a part of “not respecting the craft.”
I’m not even a huge Beck fan. And he didn’t make anywhere near the best album last year; The War on Drugs did. [Morning Phase was a knockoff of Beck’s best album, Sea Change, which came out a decade ago (and which, you’ll no doubt want to know, since you seem to think Beck disappeared from relevance after Odelay, has some songs that still turn up on quality radio stations from time to time). Now that would have been a deserving best album.] But as an overall piece of quality art, and an album, Morning Phase is every bit as deserving as any conglomeration of singles from Team Beyonce, Inc., and for Kanye to insinuate otherwise because it’s not artistic enough is obnoxious.
Yoda Dog
@SatanicPanic: Oh so he was “battling”? With Beck? Puh-leese. De La Soul thinks your pop culture needs a diaper change.
SatanicPanic
@blueskies: so people can’t judge music or movies, but they can judge politicians? That’s a weird place to draw the line
kc
@SatanicPanic:
Nope. Didn’t say that.
SatanicPanic
@Yoda Dog: there’s some overlap, but beefing and battling aren’t synonyms
Yoda Dog
@SatanicPanic: Again: this really cant be stressed enough… ONLY CHILDREN BUY RECORDS! Your argument is of “mass appeal” is fatally flawed unless you defer to 14 year olds to tell you whats art and whats not cool, dewd.
kc
@<a href="#comment-251589″>SatanicPanic:
What a stupid analogy. Surely even you see the difference.
john b
I guess Lou Reed is a hack too:
thetalkhouse.com/music/talks/lou-reed-of-the-velvet-underground-talks-kanye-wests-yeezus/
blueskies
@MCA1:
Bingo.
kc
@john b:
Lou Reed never sold a ton of records, so per SP, is not culturally relevant.
Peale
I didn’t know that Beck was considered a traditionalist whose music represents a stasis. Unlike that Beyonce who…I don’t know. I like her but Kanye should really try to make the case for her while the members are voting. Did he think there were hanging chads?
SatanicPanic
@kc: Man, whatever. I can’t argue with someone who won’t even stand behind their own claims.
SatanicPanic
@Yoda Dog: No one but Taylor Swift fans buy records anymore, that’s an outdated metric. I don’t own a single Beyonce record but I know her hits.
kc
@SatanicPanic:
What “claim” am I not standing behind? Be specific, pls.
kc
@SatanicPanic:
Why are you not supporting her artistry?
Yoda Dog
Right here^ you shit on Beck for not selling enough records to be relevant. Stand by your own bullshit my friend. The relevancy of album sales is your cross to bear here, not mine..
Mayur
@MCA1: did you just claim that Sea Change Is better than Odelay And Mutations?
Dead to me, you are. ;)
trollhattan
Dude peaked when he called out GW Bush. Now that, I could get behind:speaking truth to power.
Since then he’s gathered a lot of fame, money and a hawt wife. What is he doing with it all?
SatanicPanic
@MCA1: I never said I had a problem with Taylor Swift winning a Grammy. I have no particular problem with Taylor Swift. I don’t think she’s that great, but that’s just me. Blank Space is a pretty good song. I think awards should include a mix of quality and cultural relevance. I don’t see what’s weird about that. Discounting cultural relevance would be fine, but it wouldn’t make for a very interesting award show when some band from Manitoba, CA, gets the award and no one knows who it is.
john b
@MCA1: Sea Change is not Beck’s best album.
Heck, I’d say it’s like his fourth best album. Adult contemporary snooze-fest compared to his earlier stuff.
catbirdman
Right, most people think Kanye is a pompous, humorless prick because he’s black. Seems more reasonable to argue that Kanye has issues with white people winning awards that he thinks should go to black people. Or one particular black woman he has appointed himself to watch over. But keep telling yourself it’s because he’s black.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
Beck wrote every song on his album and played just about every instrument on said album. And, it’s a really good album. No offense to Beyoncé, who is a great artist in her own right, but can she say the same about her latest album? Did she write all the lyrics to all the songs? Did she play all the instruments? I don’t mind Kanye criticizing an undeserving winner but Beck’s album certainly exhibited at least as much creativity, craft, and skill as Beyoncé’s did this year.
Kylroy
@Peale: He’s not interested in making a case, he’s interested in making headlines.
When he was knocking Taylor over Beyoncé, he was shouting down mass market crap. With Beck, he’s shouting down an extremely committed and talented artist who’s receiving a career award in the form of an album award – something that happens all the time at much more respected awards than the Grammys. I still think Beck deserves a damn medal for being chill about Kanye calling him a fraud.
SatanicPanic
@Yoda Dog: No, you’re missing my point. In 2015 record sales aren’t a very good measure of cultural relevance. Was Beck on the radio? On the television? Was his face on the homepage of popular websites? Did his photo become a meme? these are more accurate measures of cultural relevancy today than record sales.
Betty Cracker
I suspect Kanye’s well-timed eruptions are just part of the overall marketing strategy. “Fighting for creativity” my ass.
kc
@SatanicPanic:
“Did his photo become a meme?” LOL!
I look forward to these measures of “cultural relevancy” being introduced into the deliberations for Nobel Prize for literature.
john b
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: Completely irrelevant. See my comment upthread. This isn’t an award for best musician. It’s for the product of their work. The album itself.
kc
@kc:
“Did his photo become a meme?”
Kanye is THE most culturally relevant.
kc
@kc:
Kanye is highly meme-able. He should win ALL the awards.
kc
@john b:
It’s relevant because Kanye criticized Beck as an artist.
cokane
the grammys are always like a decade or two behind the times? why does this surprise anyone, most espcially a self-appointed pop culture genius like West?
I mean Beck’s latest album is pretty dull stuff compared to Mellow Gold, Odelay…
Grammys sucks. In 10-20 years they’ll be giving Beyonce all the awards for her then likely lukewarm work. It’s just how they roll, with a few exceptions
MCA1
@Mayur: Ha! It’s the one I keep going back to, I guess. I loved his eclecticism in the Odelay and Mellow Gold days, but I wanted to hear something more coherent from start to finish after that and didn’t hear it until Sea Change.
MCA1
@SatanicPanic: I think you’re missing a large part of the culture. Beck was on Fallon, Kimmel, Conan and SNL this year. Morning Phase was in a ton of “best albums of the year” lists for 2014. All Songs Considered gave him an entire 45 minute episode.
Did he play the Super Bowl? No. He’s not nearly the name among those under 30 that Beyonce is. But you’re showing an ignorance of a large part of the culture in your continued insistence that no one’s seen the dude in 15 years. The world of relevant music doesn’t stop at the border of hip hop and radio pop singles.
LanceThruster
Well…he *is* a genius.
SatanicPanic
@MCA1: This is true, I don’t watch any of those shows or listen to NPR. I do think the under 30 crowd is maybe important because that’s where tomorrow’s musicians will come from. A show like the Grammy’s becomes stale when it focuses too much on people whose career has peaked. Maybe “becomes stale” is wrong because it’s always been like that. I mean, that’s why I don’t read Rolling Stone either, because who cares what Neil Young or Bruce Springsteen is up to in 2015. The point is that these shows could be better if they were a little more populist and forward-looking.
The Moar You Know
I was a professional musician for 25 years.
1. He does not and has not made a valid point about art, musicians, or craft. Ever. Including Beyonce. When she delivers a Grammy-worthy piece of work she’ll get an Grammy. That hasn’t happened yet.
2. His “theatrics” have ruled him forever out of membership in that somewhat elite club of professional music makers. He is not a professional anything. I’ve seen dedicated amateurs who are far more professional than Mr. West will ever be capable of being. He’s not even a good self-promoter.
3. Can’t help but notice that Kanye’s more than willing to shit all over a teenage girl (I might add one who has more professionalism in her little finger than he has in his entire small, dwarf-like body) but won’t do it to a man. Mark of a fucking gutless coward if I’ve ever seen one.
Now, all those things being said…Beck? Really? Must be the Scientology mafia at work. I mean, he’s good and all, but there was some truly stunning work done last year, albeit mostly by newcomers. But still…Beck? I guess he was the safe choice.
ReformedPantySniffer
I think Shirley Manson of the band Garbage (7 Grammy nominations) wrote it best (on Facebook of all things):
Kanye West: Stop acting like a twat or something…
See facebook.com/shirleymanson or salon.com/2015/02/10/shirley_manson_perfectly_nails_whats_wrong_with_kanye/
Gingers rule!
ET
I hope you aren’t saying that Kanye’s “valid” point is that Beyonce’s music is more artistically valid than Beck’s because if so I call Bullshit.
Kanye’s calls it a “monumental feat” but what the fuck is that? Does that mean she “deserves” the award cause she sold more albums? I call BS on that because that is a popularity contest and says fuck all about how good something is -however one defines “good.” I didn’t think that award was given to the album with the most sales though I am sure it has been. Does “monumental feat” mean because he really like it? If so well that’s nice but there are other grammy voters and their opinions are just as valid as his.
Now you may like Beyonce’s music and not really like Beck’s and that’s OK. You can say that you think that she was robbed and that you thought she deserved it. But you saying Kanye’s making a valid point when he is basically saying the Beck’s music is somehow not worthy of respect is just as wrong.
Personally I think Kanye was being his usually asshole self trying to insert himself in something that he was better off shutting the hell up about. If he wanted to make a “valid point” he could have done so without basically insulting another musician and all grammy voters which is basically what he did.
Kylroy
@SatanicPanic: The Grammys tried going after up amd coming acts in the 80s; it resulted in them handing out a bunch of brass to people nobody cared about in 5 years. The cheap shot is saying you want the Grammys to be the People’s Choice Awards; the reality is you just want the Grammys to be something they’re not. Grammys go to safe, established artists that the committee is confident won’t be gone in a decade…mostly because they did their best work a decade ago.
SatanicPanic
@Kylroy: Beyonce’s been around since the 90s
MCA1
@SatanicPanic: Fair enough, but that’s sort of at odds with defending Kanye West, who most emphatically does have a problem with Taylor Swift, and claims to care deeply about art over commercial appeal and cultural relevance, isn’t it?
SatanicPanic
@MCA1: I think Kayne’s making the point that Beyonce’s work resonated with a lot of people because it’s great art. I tend to agree. I have the occasional obscure song that I think is really great and/or wrongly overlooked, but I also think that popular opinion can be a pretty good judge as well.
Zinsky
Kanye has no talent other than marrying fat ass white chicks who also have no talent.
SatanicPanic
I mean, I’m not going to give an award to LMFAO or the Black Eyed Peas, but I think it’s a lot harder to make interesting and successful pop records than people assume and that should be rewarded.
kc
More from Kimye:
MCA1
@SatanicPanic: Now we’re talking. That’s a much more nuanced point, and I don’t necessarily disagree. Part of the Grammy’s problem is that, whereas everyone accepts that the Oscars is sort of a joke if all you care about is rewarding great art, because it’s run by an industry marketing group, people still pretend the Grammy’s are something else. They’d do better to shred the pretentions and actually go with “commercial blockbuster that’s most worth a shit artistically” as the unspoken criteria for best album. Celebrate the slightly better than middlebrow.
One response question to your thoughts, however, is how do we know an artist has peaked? Also, does the end of a run of great creativity and production necessarily mean that they can’t again achieve greatness? I mean, D’Angelo had a vital, much lauded release last year, but I would have written him off as having peaked more than a decade ago. Just because the Stones haven’t done anything interesting in 35 years doesn’t mean that every artist over 28 is incapable of great work.
GregB
Well, if being an internet meme is one of the barometers, Kanye West doesn’t have a whisker of talent when compared to Grumpy Cat.
It's Not The Fall, It's The Landing
@john b: Lou Reed made some good records in his time, but his opinion on other people’s music is just his opinion, nothing more. Why would you think his “endorsement” means anything to me or anyone else on this thread?
Please try again, though – your attempts to justify West’s douchebaggery are most amusing!
Kylroy
@SatanicPanic: Performing? Yes. A major solo presence in pop music? No.
SatanicPanic
@MCA1: Yeah, commercial blockbuster that’s most worth a shit artistically is a great way to put it.
That’s a good point. Johnny Cash and Cher were similar stories. It is kind of impossible to know until someone is actually dead. Even then maybe not. People do reinvent themselves, and I shouldn’t count Beck out entirely.
SatanicPanic
@Kylroy: fair enough, I’m just saying she’s obviously not just a flash in the pan. They don’t have to give out awards to just the latest hot artist, but who is popular should be a consideration.
Kylroy
@SatanicPanic: I agree. And I’d be very surprised if they don’t give her one in the next decade. Most likely after she records a more down-tempo and mellow record, same as Beck did.
MCA1
@SatanicPanic: This is where we diverge. In the history of music, the masses have recognized true greatness immediately a hell of a lot less than they have ignored greatness in favor of what feels familiar and unchallenging. I’m not saying commercial success is a failproof indicator of lack of artistic merit, but it’s a helluva long way from the opposite. The intersection of stand the test of time great and sell a shit ton of albums is not a particularly busy one.
SatanicPanic
@Kylroy: hehe Beyonce Unplugged
kc
@Kylroy:
Beyonce? Give her one what, a Grammy? She’s already won several, including two on Sunday. Which makes Kanye’s whining all the more unwarranted.
philpm
Sadly, this says much more about how much radio programming sucks than it does about Beck and his music. I heard him and his wife interviewed about the album on NPR, and they played some clips of two or three of the songs on the album, and they were excellent.
Patricia Kayden
So we are going to be treated year in year out to Kanye rushing the stage every time Beyoncé doesn’t win an award? If he was White and did the same thing to Black artists, would so many people find his behavior cute? He’s a jerk.
pete
Speaking as an old fart, some folks around here need to wise up. Beck’s Morning Phase is not only really good, it reached #3 on the charts, which ain’t bad. People who haven’t heard of him since the 1990s are … getting o-l-d (probably not as ancient as me) and really ought to stop making fools of themselves.
Suzy P
Really, Kanye is so punk rock. He gets everybody so worked up! He is so outrageous! OMG! This is a real slice of get of my lawn I didnt expect out of the Juicers. He’s so talented at so many things including scaring all the adults and making great music. He IS a national treasure.
Suzy P
@Suzy P: Let me add that I also love Beck and his new album has been in heavy rotation on the public alternative rock station here in Dallas. Morning Phase is no Sea Change, but it’s pretty good.
Someguy
West is right. Beck is a no talent assclown who wouldn’t be getting awards if he was black. Beyonce shoulda won his award.
You know who else only gets awards because he’s white? Tom Brady. Beyonce shoulda won that Superbowl MVP award too. She throws a football like nobody’s business, and looks better in a Patriots jersey with no pants.
And remember when Mike Trout won the AL MVP? Beyonce hits higher for average, and OBP. Trout was just appropriating latino culture, with his pale imitation of Roberto Clemente.
Racist mothafuckin’ music, football and baseball industries…
John Thomson
@burnspbesq: YUP!
Brandon
You can usually hear at least one Beck song ranging from Odelay to his latest album at least once a day on WXRT, Chicago’s biggest rock station.
Interrobang
Everyone knows a Beyonce song when they hear one
Whaddaya know, I’ve been excluded from “everybody.” If I’ve ever heard a Beyonce song (and I probably have) I sure don’t remember it.
And pardon me, but I do happen to think that if you wrote all the stuff on your album and played most of the instruments et cetera, that should count somewhichway toward some assessment of your album’s quality. Sure, a hundred people with the help of enormous multinational corporations’ slick marketing engines can make a better album than one guy with a few helpers, but that is sort of like saying that the US military can defeat a gang of kids with slingshots, no?
For what it’s worth, I also think that anybody who upstages someone at an awards show like that is an unprofessional douchenozzle, no matter whether they’re black, white, brown, pink, or green with navy polkadots. Sheesh.
Marmot
Wow. Pop music is dumb, this thread is dumb.
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
SO instead of going to a musical genius, it should have gone to a no-talent assclown?
Gonna say no.
Yoda Dog
@SatanicPanic:
*head explodes*
Paul in KY
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: I’ve seen him in concert & he’s quite proficient on 4 or 5 instruments.
Paul in KY
@Kylroy: Each year should stand on its own. If the 80s 1 hit wonders had the best song/album that year, then they should have won, no matter if they were selling vacuum cleaners 5 years later.
chopper
so apparently now beef between rappers now rationalizes bum rushing the stage at the grammys to take the mic from teenage country stars, and a person’s cultural impact is measured in how much their face gets memed.
the things you learn on the internet.
chopper
it’s not like beck is some no-talent one-hit shitbird. he’s a pretty talented musician overall and i don’t see how beyonce’s stuff is any more ‘art’ or ‘craft’ than his. (note: not a beck fan at all)
and ‘monumental feats of music’? she’s a great singer but that’s what she does, sing songs other people write while other people play the music in the background. at least beck writes and performs his own stuff.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@SatanicPanic: Blank Space is a terrible song full of false rhymes, IMO. When did song writers stop actually rhyming and just sort of nod in the direction of rhyming? It’s kind of pathetic how many songs these days are built on false rhymes.
Kylroy
@Paul in KY: Which is nice in theory, but I assure you if every Best New Artist award went to a “Dexy’s Midnight Runners”-level flash in the pan, the Grammys would mange the impossible feat of being even *more* of a joke.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@john b: IMO Beck’s album is better. My comment upthread was basically a partial list of the reasons why I think it’s better.
tam1MI
According to SPs logic, Justin Bieber should have been a multi-Grammy winner by now, over both Beyoncé and Kanye.
chopper
@tam1MI:
he’s certainly been memed a lot.
Kylroy
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: That’s where I think Kanye made a big mistake this time. Nobody’s going to seriously argue the merits of Taylor Swift’s music, but in running down Beck he derided an extremely talented musician (and composer) whose work is generally very well regarded.
Nikolita
@kc:
Came here to say this. Saw a post on FB yesterday that summed up why Kanye was wrong in 5 simple points.
mikem
DrewsThatDude from Twitter:
Kanye West told a nigga who plays like 14 instruments that he needs to respect the artistry of a woman who needs 4 writers for one song
Nelson Kerr
@SatanicPanic:
The Grammy’s are for awarding nice music not to “advance” anything but good music.
Paul in KY
@Kylroy: If that really was the best of that year, then they should have gotten the grammy. I’m not just talking about Best New Artist.
Shazza
@Joshua James:
Yes he has-
thefader.com/2015/02/09/all-the-times-kanye-west-gave-his-own-awards-to-someone-else
Shazza
@SatanicPanic:
I’m with you, I think Kanye is amazing. I own all of his music and love the way he experiments with the sounds and samples. And he isn’t all about himself, his label G.O.O.D Music put out ‘Cruel Summer’ featuring his artists 2 Chains, Big Sean, Pusha T, Teyana Taylor and his stuff holds up over time. But I’m afraid his antics don’t make the people who already hate him actually listen to his music and enjoy it.
Shazza
@Penus:
And there you have it.