In 2004, Donald Rumsfeld directed a Task Force to determine the causes of radicalism & terrorism. Its conclusions: pic.twitter.com/4eRmvXtI01
— Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) February 16, 2015
Paul Waldman, at the Washington Post, “Get ready for the return of the Global War On Terror“:
… To date, ISIS has killed four Americans, a horrible tragedy for those people and their families. But since the idea of the group’s threat to America is at this point entirely hypothetical, we should be as specific as we can when we talk about that threat. Do we think they’re going to try to hijack planes or send agents here to set off bombs? And if so, what do we need to do to counter those threats that we aren’t already doing? If we’re going to expand our military involvement in the Middle East, is there a way to do it that won’t create more problems than it solves?
Those are simple, obvious questions, but so often they’re overwhelmed by people waving their arms and shouting “We’re all gonna die!” In the days and years after September 11, Republicans repeated that al Qaeda was an “existential threat,” a notion that was utterly insane yet seldom examined. And we certainly acted as though the very existence of the United States of America was indeed in question. Congress gave the federal government a slate of new powers to spy on its citizens. We created a surveillance apparatus of gargantuan size and scope. We deployed a network of secret prisons as sites for a program of torture. And we all got used to the idea that the War on Terror is forever.
Given that Republicans control both houses, there are only two plausible outcomes to the debate over the AUMF. The first is that Congress can’t agree on a resolution. The second is that a broader resolution passes, perhaps one that eliminates the three-year expiration date written into Obama’s proposal and includes mention of Syria, where Republicans are eager to expand U.S. military operations. In either case, Obama will end up making the same decisions for the remainder of his term, since he already believes he has whatever authority he needs to fight ISIS.
So as much as anything this debate is about what powers the next president will have. Republicans pushing for a more expansive authorization are hoping that president will be a Republican, and that this resolution can be a tool for him to renew the Global War on Terror to all its former glory. …
My emphases. Those were glory days for the GOP, of course, and what matter if the whole world burns in the attempt to claw back some shreds of such “glory”?
Baud
Seems likely, no?
ETA: By the way, this article does something I see often and can’t stand — treating Iraq as of the same class as other ME interventions. As a misadventure, Iraq was in a class by itself.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
procrastination had me watching a lot of TeeVee today: I caught Ed Schultz who said two or three times, pretty much: “I’m not calling for boots on the ground, but we need boots on the ground!” A retried colonel tried to explain to him that his preferred option of “special forces” wouldn’t really cut it, and he and Steve Clemons effectively echoed Obama that this will have to be solved by people in the region. Then I flipped on Chris Hayes in time to catch a truly bizarre rant by Tweety, imagining those Egyptians wondering why Americans weren’t coming to save them, as they were raised to believe we would, rightly, because that’s what we do. We don’t leave anyone behind!
Pogonip
My theory is that people who are maddened by lack of pupdates will eventually do crazy things.
Anne, is it still snowing there?
I have a question. I would like to go on an anti-inflammatory diet. The realities of life in 21st-century America being what they are, this will pretty much mean preparing everything from scratch. I can’t do it on the weekends like many people do. What’s the next best approach? Salads? Sandwiches? Purina?
Mike E
OT? Stevie Wonder all-star jam on CBS. At the height of his creativity, IMO he was streets ahead of the rest of the musical pack.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
also, too, I have to repost this because it pissed me off so much, Kathleen Parker on yesterday’s MTP, via Charlie Pierce’s Gobshite round-up
I wonder if the bearded tree stump that calls itself Chuck Todd even noticed.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I propose we send Tweety to save them.
Pogonip
This is why I like sites where many people write in. Somebody can usually offer helpful hints on any topic that comes up.
Hildebrand
I say we treat ISIS with all due perspective it deserves – next to nothing (in the grand scheme of things). They are provocateurs. They don’t want to govern, they want to throw their tantrum (hmm – sounds like Republicans in the House). Yet, we keep responding as if they are James Bond villains. They aren’t.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Pogonip: I’m not sure what an anti-inflammatory diet is, but I know I tend to eat a lot healthier in cool weather cause I make vegetable heavy soups a every week or two. In the summer I tend to get lazy and throw meat on the grill. Also, there are some really good bagged salads (like I said, lazy– chopping and washing kale is a PITA)
Pogonip
@Mike E: Stevie Wonder and my ears never got along. Everybody else gets it. I’m sure he is indeed a genius and I’m too dumb to hear it. Given this, discussions of his genius make me feel like the only kid in Sunday school class who can’t see Jesus hidden in the picture.
Anybody else in the same predicament wanna talk about the weather?
raven
We just binged the last three episodes of Happy Valley. Good stuff!
Pogonip
@Hildebrand: Actually, they do want to govern; they think the ideal government is the caliphate, 7th-century vintage, and want to restore that. I’m glad they are making everyone so mad that nobody will cooperate.
Mike in NC
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Well, Bush did put in place a lot of ‘tools’ with names like Cheney, Libby, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Gonzalez, ad nauseum.
Baud
I have Hulu Plus free for about another month, but I haven’t found anything good to watch. Any suggestions?
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’m fine with the US providing logistics and support for whatever coalition of Middle Eastern countries decides to go in against ISIS. More than that — especially boots onna ground? Hell, no.
Patrick
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Why doesn’t Tweety try to get Bush in to office again?Tweety thought Bush deserved be on the Mt Rushmore for his unprovoked attack on Iraq.
Pogonip
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: What type of sauces and seasonings do you use? That’s where I get stuck. OK, I just grilled this lovely piece of fish or whatever. What do I put on it? Commercial sauces are usually loaded with corn syrup to which I react very badly. (Oddly enough, real, honest corn as God intended people to eat it bothers me not at all.)
BillinGlendaleCA
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Tweety’s been off his meds for a few months.
Pogonip
I sure hope Jeffrey is reading this topic (though I will probably have to decline his chili cheese fries, darn it).
Hi, Jeffrey! My son’s autistic too!
raven
@Patrick: And he loved the swifboat assholes.
Baud
@Pogonip:
No such thing. If people stopped cultivating corn, apparently it would revert back to some totally different type of plant.
Mnemosyne
@Pogonip:
Do you need anti-inflammatory, or low FODMAPs? I ask because you said that corn syrup can be a problem, and high-fructose corn syrup is definitely on the FODMAPs list:
http://www.med.monash.edu/cecs/gastro/fodmap/
When I was cooking at home more, what usually worked was to make dinner in, say, four portions and refrigerate/freeze the leftovers for lunches the rest of the week. Lots of stir-fries.
Botsplainer
There’s an issue with letting the thing metastasize further. Our right wingers enabled and encouraged Israeli right wingers in stamping out secularized soft socialist nationalism in the Arab world, leading to the shitshow of the past 25-30 years. Left alone, Ba’athists would have operated decent, functioning, effective governments from Tripoli (Libya) to Baghdad. Of course, America’s bestest friend and ally of all time would have had to be more circumspect.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Pogonip: on salads? vinegar and oil, salt and pepper, mustard, paprika. On fish, lemon, a little butter and garlic salt.
I just looked up anti-inflammatory diet– do legumes count as whole grains? I think so. Two cans of lentils, frozen chopped spinach, chicken stock, chicken, indian spices (the list I saw had turmeric and ginger on it), maybe tomatoes, dump it all in a crockpot and its ready in an hour. Drop a spoonful of yogurt in it. There was a soup thread here about a month ago….
danielx
Horrifying mental image of Bill Kristol rubbing his hands in glee with thought bubble above his head: “We’re getting the band back together!”
jl
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
” boots onna ground? Hell, no. ”
Middle East pundit from Iran says US ‘boots onna ground’ is a bad strategy for IS/ISIS/ISIL. Need to find ways to cut off their money. Says a lot of apparent spread of IS/ISIS/ISIL is that they have lots of money and willing to fork it out to various groups willing to slap the winning IS tag on their existing terrorist operations.
Interview with Abbas Milani
Can The U.S. Combat ISIS Without Playing Into The Terrorist Group’s Strategies?
Will it take United States military ground intervention to defeat ISIS or the Islamic State or does that play into the plans of these radicals?
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/audio/kcbs-in-depth/
Hildebrand
@Pogonip: Their understanding of the 7th century caliphate is deeply flawed, then again, as with any fundamentalist/literalist group, they completely misread the intentions of the founders.
raven
Aw, RIP Lesley Gore. Her performance on the TAMI Show was really good.
Baud
@jl:
Franchising! Brilliant!
Pogonip
@Baud: I should have been clearer. I meant real, honest corn like our grandparents grew, as opposed to modern high-fructose abominations.
My best guess as a non-farmer is that if Monsanto and its evil like went away, a consummation devoutly to be wished, within a few generations roundup-ready corn would be gone but older varieties would continue. And of course you’d get new hybrids, either by design or by accidental cross-pollination. I think it would only revert back to the ancestral teosinte plant if everybody stopped using corn for any purpose whatever.
Mike E
@Pogonip: That’s cool…each one of us knows what rocks it the hardest, and the debates just take away the joy from something so personal.
My mom used to tell the story of her dad’s utter devotion to Wagner and how she almost wound up with Brunhilde or someshit as her given name…turned out she ditched her first name (Gertrude) anyway, opting for the middle and last names as her official naturalized identity.
Heh, Sir Paul just called Stevie, “Fucking great!”
BillinGlendaleCA
@jl: They were talking about this article from the Atlantic on Morning Hoe this AM:
What ISIS Really Wants.
Baud
@Pogonip:
You weren’t unclear. I was just engaging in some late-night pedantry.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Worked for McD’s.
Violet
@Pogonip: What do you mean by an anti-inflammatory diet? Have you looked into some diets already? Anything specific that you’ve already tried?
Pogonip
@Mnemosyne: Anti-inflammatory. I don’t have IBS. Corn syrup bothers my sinuses.
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Maybe the only effective way to destroy ISIS is to infiltrate their leadership with MBAs!
ETA: They could impose something like this to kill moral:
http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-11-13/microsoft-kills-its-hated-stack-rankings-dot-does-anyone-do-employee-reviews-right
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: Are you suggesting MItt and the Mittlets form up a private brigade? I support this idea.
danielx
@Botsplainer:
Functioning and effective, maybe. “Decent” is open to debate, depending upon if one is talking to Sunnis, Shiites or Kurds. See rules, Hama. Then again, I can’t see the Wahhabis/Salifi of Saudi Arabia permitting any secular government of any hue whatsoever to gain power without bloodshed on a scale to dwarf what’s happening now in Syria and Iraq.
Botsplainer
@Baud:
Synergy! Crowdsourcing! 6-Sigma!
Villago Delenda Est
ISIL is the baby of the deserting coward and the Dark Lord.
Yet another reason they should be frog marched to The Hague.
Villago Delenda Est
@Hildebrand:
See our own local loons, who are 180 degrees out of synch with Jefferson, Madison, et al.
Pogonip
@Botsplainer: Yup, that’ll do it. I can just hear some expensively coiffed Manager whining ” Come on, guys, we all watched the PowerPoint together and we all saw that if we work as a team we can achieve world-class terrorism, 20% more atrocities with just a little more synergy. So what’s the problem?”
schrodinger's cat
@Pogonip: You can use a wet or dry spice rub for fish.
My staples
1. A mix of ginger, garlic, green chillies, cilantro, plus some salt to taste. Make a paste in the blender by adding a little water. It will keep in the fridge for about two weeks. Rub the fish or shrimp for about half an hour before grilling.
2. Cayenne, turmeric and kosher salt.
ETA: Serve with lemon or lime wedges.
jl
@BillinGlendaleCA: thanks for link. Interesting. But it can’t be right. Not enough panic, no call for boots onna ground NOW NOW NOW!!
Regarding the interview I posted, I never heard of Abbas Milani before, but some of what he writes is interesting, seems to follow Iranian politics closely. I found these to articles interesting.
“Thomas Jefferson Was A Muslim,” (about a attacks that Jefferson was a secret Muslim in one of his election campaigns)
“Are Iran and Israel Trading Places?”
https://abbasmilani.stanford.edu/?page_id=49
Botsplainer
Why is it that I want to see a Chuck McGill spinoff on Better Call Saul?
Pogonip
@schrodinger’s cat: I’ll try them, thanks. Sans cilantro. To me that stuff tastes like soap.
Violet
@Pogonip: Have you tried experimenting with fasting? You might find this research interesting.
It’s actually not that hard to include intermittent fasting into your daily life. If you can go 14 hours without eating, and that includes night time while you’re sleeping, then your cells begin the process of autophagy, which cleans up the detritus in the cells. That in turn reduces inflammation. 16 hours is a good amount to fast and it’s pretty easy–eat your dinner earlier, nothing after that and then skip breakfast.
I find I feel refreshed after fasting. The “intermittent” part seems to be key for me. I do it randomly so my body won’t expect it at certain times. Otherwise I think my body expects it and it’s somehow less effective. I tend to do it once a week or maybe twice a month, depending on what’s going on.
raven
Wow, none of you dopes probably even know who Lesley Gore was.
Violet
@schrodinger’s cat: Tumeric is a good anti-inflammatory. You can use in food or they make it in capsule form.
schrodinger's cat
@Pogonip: Replace with dill or parsley. Also, the cooked cilantro will taste completely different.
lamh36
Just came from reading the thread on Scott Walker and education.
The whole thing can be summed up like so: As long as you are white male, preferably Conservative, then not having any higher education will not exclude you from being President.
Now if you were anything but a white male…then too bad so sad, for you, you better get on that college train.
It’s the world we live in, it’s still easier for white people to get on by with a low educational threshold, while women and minorities in particular have to go above and beyond the low white norm.
Mike J
@raven: She did a guest shot on the old Batman show. IIRC, she seduced Robin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRvF5VABOAo
Violet
@raven: Why would you say that? Her passing has been mentioned in multiple threads today.
Pogonip
@Violet: No, still reading. The common element seems to be relying largely on the perimeter of the grocery store. So I guess my guilty pleasure of Jose Ole Mini Tacos is out. (Elmo, THAT’S where the road kill ends up!)
The secret to Jose Ole is soaking off the grease, then inserting a little real cheese into each mini-shell. I get a box once a year or so when they go on sale around Super Bowl time.
Pogonip
I knew I’d get helpful suggestions. Will try them and take notes.
WaterGirl
@schrodinger’s cat:
doesn’t your arm get tired?
Schlemazel
@raven:
It’s you party and you can cry if you want to raven
Violet
@Pogonip: I think the 80/20 rule applies. So long as you’re eating healthily 80% of the time you can indulge the other 20%. It’s a general rule and many people will have foods they need to avoid more carefully, but it’s not a bad rule of thumb.
You might find that if you are eating well most of the time you can have those mini tacos once in awhile and not suffer too much.
The perimeter of the grocery store is the general rule, yeah. Of course food manufacturers have figured this out and they jockey for position in the produce section. You may have noticed in the last decade or so non-produce items have shown up in the produce section. That’s not a coincidence. They pay for that location because it’s supposedly the “healthier” location and people are more likely to put things in their cart there.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I think it’s Judy’s turn
schrodinger's cat
@efgoldman: @WaterGirl: You guys know what I meant. I am half asleep. I better call it a night.
CarolDuhart2
@raven: I do. “It’s My Party” , “Judy’s Turn to Cry”, “Warm California Nights”, “Rainbows and Lollipops”. I always wondered why she didn’t go deeper into the Sixties when the Beatles blew up so,like her contemporaries the Beach Boys, the Four Seasons, and others. She certainly was young enough to have done so.
BruceFromOhio
@Pogonip: Stop eating red meat now, forever.
Other than that, make your changes slowly over time so you do not cause a new set of problems trying to solve your current challenges, or run up your grocery buying a bunch of stuff that just makes you sicker, or doesn’t allow you to hit your goals.
Not sure what you are after with “anti-inflammatory”, I dig the Omega-3/anti-oxidant/Mediterranean style of foodstuffs: salmon once a week when I can afford it, lots of fruits and vegetables, olive oil, nuts (almonds, non-salted pistachios), non-animal proteins (tofu, chick peas), minimalist dairy, honey and agave to sweeten things, buckets of green tea. Go organic whenever possible.
Things to stay the hell away from, no matter what your goals: high-fructose corn syrup, salt, dyes, artificial sweeteners and flavorings, anything wrapped in cellophane, anything deep-fried.
My downfall is beer, particularly IPA’s. Throws everything else under the bus, but Gaia help me I’ll give it up on my deathbed, not before.
WaterGirl
@schrodinger’s cat: sorry, couldn’t help myself.
@efgoldman: good one!
Tree With Water
The GOP is the party of rule or ruin- it is the party of war. A rude truth the “look forward not behind” crowd has yet to wrap their minds around, if they ever do.
Frankensteinbeck
@Tree With Water:
We know that quite well. It’s one of many reasons that trying to prosecute the Bush administration would have been pointless. Even if, by some magical miracle, they were actually successfully punished, it wouldn’t change the GOP or what the GOP will continue to do in the slightest. They are assholes. They launch wars because it makes them feel manly and proud. Like most assholes, they believe they’re untouchable, so what happened to someone else doesn’t matter anyway.
GregB
Sad to hear Al Gore’s wife passed away.
;)
CarolDuhart2
http://youtu.be/gM-Vn_IZHx8
Sunshine, Lollipops, and Rainbows
http://youtu.be/JDUjeR01wnU
You don’t own me…
BruceFromOhio
@raven: You would cry, too, if it happened to you.
lamh36
So anyone else watching the Book of Negroes on BET? No..okay…well I’m at work, so I can’t watch it, I’ll have to catch the rebroadcast.
But it got me to thinking about this type of mini-series, Roots in particular, and whether or not it record breaking viewership, could ever be duplicated today.
Question: I’m too young (born in ’76), but I know that Roots was an event in my family household. They sat down every night to view it. I understand more than 1/2 the US viewing population at that time, tuned into the nightly broadcast. So did any of you older BJ-ers watch Roots back then? If so I’d love to hear your memory of it? Did it start a discussion? Did it broaden your mind or something?
Question 2: Do we think that there is anything like Roots that could be broadcast today and get 1/2 the US population watching it?
mai naem mobile
I seem to remember when Iran was the bigger badder enemy than Iraq, the teevee pundits were saying the Shiites were the crazy conservative wing of Islam. Now its the Sunnis apparently who are the whackjobs. Anybody know which one it is if either?
OT – I bought some Pinata apples from Trader Joes last week and OMG this is an awesome apple. I They were in a five lb bag so i didn’t get to touch them but they looked so good so i bought them based on looks alone. They say it has a tropical flavor which I guess is about right. Also really crispy.
dedc79
@Botsplainer: Israel stamped out secular, arab nationalists? How exactly did they do that?
Wonder why they disliked Nasser so much….
John Revolta
@CarolDuhart2: The woman had possibly the first feminist pop hit. How 60’s do you want it?
Amir Khalid
@lamh36:
I didn’t think to ask this at the time, and you may be too young to remember; but was there any white backlash when Roots and Roots II were first aired?
Heliopause
Not even the Nazis were an existential threat. Even the Soviets were only an existential threat assuming absolutely everything went right for them in some Strangelovian scenario. The USA is uniquely situated in world history as to be virtually impervious to any threat save its own stupidity.
rikyrah
@lamh36:
Question 1. My parents put me on the floor to watch Roots with them. None of that ‘ is this age appropriate’ bullshyt. It was ‘this is OUR STORY’, and your Black behind is going to see it. Everybody Black was watching Roots, and a whole lotta White folk.
There was the Pioneers of Television: Mini-Series episode, where they talk about bars holding Roots parties. Come and get a meal and watch Roots.
Question 2: I don’t think there is anything that could match Roots today.
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
@lamh36:
I can’t remember if I watched it with my parents, but I must have since I was about 8 when it came out. I do think it helped broaden my mind when it came to race since we were all pretty sheltered in our all-white (with a few Asians) neighborhood.
I don’t think you could get the same viewership today simply because TV has changed so much — instead of 3 networks, there are hundreds of channels. You just cant get the same concentrated audience that you could when there were fewer viewing options.
lamh36
@Amir Khalid: I’m really too young to know. I was all of barely one when Roots came on tv.
I’m sure there are old people here at BJ who remember that time. I’m assuming here, but a majority of the old hats here at BJ are white.
So I’ll open the question to the BJ room for any who’d care to answer.
I mean if 1/2 of US households tuned in, then it had to include a lot of white folks right? So, Was there white backlash to Roots when it premiered?
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Pogonip: Butter, lemon and some freshly chopped parsley is a simple – and easy – grilled fish sauce.
If you’re frightened by butter, use olive oil, Add garlic, other herbs, citrus, etc. A touch of crushed fresh rosemary is delightful also.
I’m a huge fan of garlic/citrus/herb and butter sauce for grilled or broiled fish. Add/subtract any of the elements. Include grated carrot for color and a light sweet flavor; add some smoked paprika if you’d like a little spice. Wine is good also
Basically, my advice is to be brave. Make a sauce, taste it and if it’s not g*dawful, put it on the fish/chicken/whatever. The worst that will happen is you have to make an omelet after fucking up the entree you tried to make.
grandpa john
@Violet:
turmeric is also good for blood sugar control. I am on the insulin pump and my wife and I discovered Turmeric. What it does is decrease cellular insulin resistance allowing them to better use blood sugar and thus lower the amount of sugar in the blood. We use both capsules and tea bags, I just finished my nightly cup. So all you diabetics out there give it a try, it has been clinically tested and proven to work but you must still take the medications . It helps them work, but doesn’t replace the need for them. Also start out moderately to determine the amount you need as too much can cause low sugar readings and lead to hypoglycemia.
Mike E
@lamh36: I watched it, sorta like an all-star game of actors, Ben Vereen being a fave of mine at the time.
As to #2, never again in this over-saturated and decentralized station lineup will a single media destination capture such large audiences, even an HBO can’t do that these days. And with time shifting and streaming, people are too scattered to gather ’round like that time in the 70s or earlier (no more fireside chats anymore, either).
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Yup. I was in… fourth grade? It was required, and we talked about it in class at Leafy Suburb Elementary.
I was a small kid, but it forced us to think about things we probably otherwise wouldn’t have. I was so young that I guess I could say it informed my later education about slavery, US history and the Civil War. The whipping scene was horrific (my name is Toby), I do remember everybody begin a little freaked out. I remember an early scene with Ed Asner as a reluctant, guilt-ridden slave ship captain telling the slave trader that the recently captured Africans below decks were telling them to sleep lightly. And Kunta’s grandmother slapping the crap out of him when he dissed his mother after his manhood ceremony.
Just for perspective, in fifth grade, our teacher told us that the cruelty of the slave owners was exaggerated, and many slaves had it better than white factory workers in the North. She was close to retirement in the late seventies, so I’m guessing she was born around 1915, in upstate New York. Even in real time, I knew there was something not right about that.
and who are you calling “older”?
John Revolta
@lamh36: It started a lot of discussions in Chicago, I can tell ya. I remember one in particular.
I was playing in a bar on the North Side as usual on a Friday night. On a break I went to use the facilities. I was standing at a urinal, TCB, and a fella came in and started using the urinal next to me,
So, he says, making conversation like, “You been watching that show ‘Roots’?”
So, I says, “Yeah, I have been watching it some”.
So, he says to me, “Don’t ya just love those niggers now?”
Da voice a’ Chicago spoke ta me dat night.
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
@rikyrah:
I definitely remember at least one age-inappropriate sex scene.
And to Amir’s question, I don’t remember much of a backlash. It did turn out later that Alex Haley had fictionalized quite a few parts because the history just wasn’t there, but I don’t remember too many people making hay of it. It was such a phenomenon that it almost didn’t matter.
“Roots II” didn’t do quite as well, but it’s hard to reproduce that kind of cultural phenomenon.
lamh36
BTW, Since I’m at work, and it’s Carinval time (so even if I wasn’t at work, I’d probably miss it), I’m mad I missed the Stevie Wonder GRAMMY special, but I did record it.
Plus, I got my tickets for the tour here in NOLA in March!!!
So I’ll get to see it LIVE!
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@raven: I do and I am sad. But I get your point.
@schrodinger’s cat:
That is true but it will still taste like soap to those of us who got the soap-tasting gene. Warmer, sometimes milder soap, but still soap. I grow cilantro because it’s pretty and the deer don’t like it.
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
@lamh36:
Also, I think that what worked about “Roots” when it came to the white audience is what made Barack Obama a success — it gave African-Americans an “immigration” story that white people could relate to. Immigration stories are social currency among white people: where is your family from, when did they get here, what do you know about them? Haley was smart enough to realize that Black people needed that kind of story, so he provided one.
ETA: To be clear, I’m saying Black people “needed” one in order to be better accepted by whites, and it did seem to help for a while.
lamh36
@Mnemosyne (iPad Mini): well I guess I get that, but “immigration” story is putting a sugary spin on it a bit I think.
Vast majority of immigrants come to US willingly. In the cast of African slaves, there wasn’t much willingness about it.
It’s why in many ways a majority of African Americans who trace their roots back to slavery (and no farther usually) have a hard time embracing or “empathizing” with the plight of true “immigrants”, IMHO.
Immigration is an interesting subject to discuss among my friends and I, because even though in large part we are discussing another minority population, the “mode” of immigration is an interesting part of that discussion and some of the commentary can be interesting
rikyrah
@Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):
Black folks are involuntary immigrants
Tree With Water
@CarolDuhart2: Have you ever seen TAMI 1964? When Leslie Gore closes the show(!), Smokey Robinson is seen with a big grin and a WTF? look on his face. It’s pretty funny. She may have been the dimmest star on the bill that night, but she belted out some memorable songs. Unlike Smokey, she ranked among the fallen whose careers were over the day after the Beatles played the Ed Sullivan show.
JCJ
@lamh36:
Ouch. 53 and in your eyes I am old. Well, mine too!
I remember watching it with my parents and talking about it at school. My mother was from a sundown town in the southern part of Indiana and my dad was from a farming town of about 300 people. They were both quite liberal. My school was nearly all white (a few kids with families from India as well as China/Taiwan, Japan, Korea) I don’t know that it broadened people’s minds but I liked the way it was presented as a story of an American family.
Don’t think it would be as successful today, but I think that is partly due to the fragmentation of TV viewing. In my house we seldom watch TV together unless my wife joins me watching the Milwaukee Bucks or a college game. My daughter and I might watch Star Trek together, but otherwise we seldom watch the same thing.
Tenar Darell
Just saw the clip of the WV CSX train derailment and explosion up here in Massachusetts. Whoah.
Peale
@Heliopause: I think New Zealanders can be pretty haughty about that, too.
David Koch
What happened to Eddie Murphy?
you watch his old films and stage act and you can see he was cutting edge. but somehow his sense of humor died.
last night he showed up to SNL for the first time in 31 years and he refused to do any of his classic routines or to tell a single joke. The ratings were huge and it would have been a great opportunity to make impression on today’s filmmakers. but no, he insisted on being humorless.
How does that happen to someone with so much natural talent?
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
@lamh36:
That’s kind of what I mean, though. What mostly got (gets?) taught in schools is that Africans were brought here as slaves, and then Lincoln freed them, and then MLK got voting rights and … that’s about it. There’s very little discussion of what Black people’s lives were like before, during, and after those events, but there usually is a fair amount of discussion about immigration, Ellis Island, etc. that Black kids end up being left out of. I think that gap is what Haley was trying to address, and people like Henry Louis Gates Jr. are currently trying to address by doing genealogy searches, publishing slave narratives, etc.
So I think Haley was trying to construct a similar kind of narrative that Black people could use to be able to join in that “where are you from?” conversation instead of being left out. Whether or not it was a useful thing to attempt is another question.
Tenar Darell
@Baud: I believe they have Criterion Collection movies. I know I watched Modern Times, Red Balloon…
BruceFromOhio
@lamh36: Question 1 – yes, watched it with family, all but one night. It did not start discussions in the house, and those elsewhere were muted. It was a bright light cast into a period of American history of which precious few in my demographic were even aware, and it was shocking in the intensity of its illumination, and the clarity of that which was illuminated.
Question 2 – unlikely, though not impossible. The communications media world in which a single event like Roots can command a vast audience no longer exists. There are so many paths for information to take to reach the eyes and minds of a populace, the populace can pick its own paths for receiving it – this range of choice did not exist in the 1970’s.
Amir Khalid
The BBC weighs on on ways to eat Noo-tella.
Violet
@David Koch:
How do you know he refused?
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
@rikyrah:
Yes, but there are a lot of fascinating post-involuntary immigration stories out there that are only recently being told. Did you ever see the John Legend episode of “Finding Your Roots”? It turned out that his ancestors were at the center of one of the most infamous cases of free blacks being sold into slavery — one that involved the state of Ohio suing the state of Virginia for the children’s return and the case being postponed by the Civil War — and Legend had NO idea his family had been so famous.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W-QwNOgJ1FU
That is the kind of “immigration” story that white people eat up with a spoon.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@David Koch: Rumor is that he got pissed off when David Spade, during that Hollywood report thing he used to do, said “Hey! I saw a falling star last night”, and they put a picture of whatever Eddie Murphy movie had just bombed. Also, Eddie Murphy was part of the cast in the non-Lorne Michaels years, so maybe he doesn’t feel a connection, and as Chris Rock said, he pretty much single handedly kept the show on the air in those years.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
David Koch
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: thanks for the tip. I found a good article on this animosity.
Howard Beale IV
@Baud: The only way to deal with ISIS it to pin the down in two to three enclaves and use some Tomahawk’s equipped with W80s.
Suzanne
@lamh36: I agree with you in the Walker thing. The lack of education isn’t a problem for him, because he’s a white dude, but it would definitely be used to disqualify anyone else.
A lack of college education is an issue for me. I know plenty of smart people who didn’t go or didn’t finish, but almost all of them lack that systematic acquisition of knowledge that you only get in a formal educational setting or by really, REALLY challenging yourself. FFS, if you can’t lead a kindergarten classroom without a college degree, I really don’t think it’s elitist to think that maybe you shouldn’t lead a country without one.
I will also note that it’s more often the uneducated or undereducated who seem to think that college isn’t worthwhile. Most people who finished college will tell you that, even if they don’t work in their field of study, they had some valuable educational experiences that broadened or refined their thinking, or they were exposed to things they wouldn’t come across in other settings.
Villago Delenda Est
@Howard Beale IV: The problem, of course, is pinning all of them down (with metaphysical certitude) in order to use the W80s.
Which simply will not happen. Asymmetrical warfare is a bitch…as the British in North America, the French in Spain, and the Germans in France and the Ukraine learned. Or didn’t learn, given how often the same mistakes have been made over and over again by great powers seeking to wipe out insurgencies.
JustRuss
@lamh36: I was 12 when Roots aired, and it was a big deal, although I don’t remember any specific discussions. Growing up in very white SoCal, it was a revelation for me.
srv
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Private brigades are forming:
http://www.1naef.com/
Bobby B.
@David Koch: Maybe he just hates Joe Piscopo. I can relate.
tybee
@lamh36:
i read the book. i didn’t watch the toob much then, even less now.
Gvg
Roots was watched by my white family together and it certainly made things more visually complete for me but I was raised in a very actively liberal civil rights household so I don’t think it was actually to shocking to me. I do recall some clips of documentary background either during or after that gave statistics and numbers I found more shocking. the death rate from the transport ships was so awful. it was discussed in school to the point teachers were almost requiring it.
I resisted the fashion of ancestor worship that people seemed to go nuts over after that because I thought that was kind on anti American. we don’t do aristocracy and people are only as good as their own actions and don’t get to think they are better because of famous ancestors IMO. that was something people seemed to misapply from Rooots that I didn’t like. white people started doing ancestor research more as a result of Roots and I didn’t like the attitude. also we used to be less rabid anti immigration in my youth. a repeating cycle in Amreican history unfortunately.
Chris
@Botsplainer:
Don’t think I buy this.
Our hostility towards Arab Nationalism goes all the way back to the forties and fifties and it’s a lot more tied up in our relationship to Saudi Arabia than our relationship to Israel. Arab Nationalism was also known as Arab Socialism, and it aligned itself with the Soviet Bloc. In the Cold War Uber Alles environment post-1947, that was all it took, and just like in Latin America, East Asia, or Africa, we immediately started looking for people who could counteract the Leftist Threat. Israel was a start, but it was hardly enough – it’s in no position to be an ideological counterweight to Arab Nationalism. So that role ended up falling to Saudi Arabia, whose conservative, monarchist, religious model was supposed to be the alternative to Egypt’s revolutionary, republican, secularist model (with “religion” being easily the best card that the Saudi/Western side had to play). And that ball kept rolling until today.
Really, it’s not that different from our appealing to reactionary Catholics in Latin America as our counter to the local Marxists.
Chris
@Gvg:
I find it fascinating just how many white Americans claim to come either from nobility or actual royalty back in the Old Country (whatever the Old Country in question is), including mine, if the “De” before the French name of my ancestors is to be believed. I’m sure it’s true of some of them, and I’m sure they’re being sincere about what they believe, but in the aggregate it adds up to a massive case of “too many chiefs and not enough Indians.”
The Latin American equivalent, I’m told, is to claim you’re 100% pure Castillan Spanish, and virulently deny that you have any American Indian blood. Leaving people to nod politely on the outside, while on the inside going “look, I know I’m not supposed to profile, but… but… but… REALLY dude?”
bjacques
Yup. I saw Roots as a kid. I was in 9th grade and would have had American History that year. I’m sure it was discussed but I don’t remember. It must have rattled some cages, because I do remember some spoilsport trying to discredit it because of the embellishments.
I also remember Saturday Night Live’s parody.
“Your name is now Peggy Fleming!”
“My name Bop Chu Wop!”
As for ISIS, Chelsea Manning had the right idea. Bottle them up and let them rot. Beyond that, I’d say visit horror on their bankers. Bomb their oil terminals and stop their oil convoys. Encourage their local enemies, especially the Kurds. Maybe also drop propaganda and handguns in restive areas just to mess with them. And treat Muslims better in our own countries.
Cervantes
Can this be true?
A post that cites Glenn Greenwald, and yet none of the usual suspects are here to declare it consequently illegitimate?
It can’t be true.