A news CBS poll has found that since September, America has definitely changed its mind on sending ground troops in to fight ISIS. This is not a good thing, in fact it’s terrifying.
Amid more executions by the militant group ISIS, Americans increasingly see the group as a threat to the U.S. Now, 65 percent of Americans view ISIS as a major threat – up from 58 percent in October – while another 18 percent view it as a minor threat. Majorities of Republicans (86 percent), Democrats (61 percent) and independents (57 percent) view ISIS as a major threat.
With concern about ISIS growing, support for the use of U.S. ground troops in the fight against ISIS has risen. For the first time, a majority of Americans (57 percent) favor the U.S. sending ground troops into Iraq and Syria to fight ISIS. In October, Americans were divided (47 percent favored and 46 percent opposed), and in September these numbers were reversed (39 percent favored and 55 percent opposed).
Fucking really, people? 57 percent of us want another goddamn ground war in Iraq and now Syria? I just…no. Just no. Take the short bus to hell.
Support for sending U.S. ground troops to fight ISIS has risen among all partisans, but particularly among Democrats and independents. Back in October, 56 percent of Democrats and 49 percent of independents disapproved of using ground troops – now 50 percent of Democrats approve and 53 percent of independents favor using ground troops.
Super awesome. We have learned a grand total of absolutely goddamn nothing over the last 13 years, so let’s just have another decade of boots on the ground and see if that fixes things. I’m sure it will. The last 13 years? Didn’t happen.
Good job, America. Last one left turn off the giant flashing neon “We’re #1!” sign with the naked chick ghost riding the M1A1 Abrams tank on the way out.
JMG
War sounds great to people who know they’ll never have to pay the consequences — in money, let alone blood. Sometimes I think the armed forces would be perfectly justified in a coup d’etat against Chickenhawk Nation.
The Moar You Know
I did the math on this and since the year I was born, I think America has NOT been at war for only about seven of them.
This country loves war. Fucking loves it. Hey, there’s some old adage about “live by the sword, die by the sword”, but that’s gotta be bullshit because we’re special, amirite?
I’ll spare the arguments of “threat to what” since obviously nobody gives a shit, and just say: heckuva job, media. This one is square on you.
Bobby B.
As Mr Burns said, “Excellent…”
Punchy
When they lopped off 20-some odd Egyptians’ heads, all at once, its the kind of uber-intense evil that stirs up this kind of response. These fucks arent just mean, they’re sadistic x1000. I can understand why Americans so want these assholes 6 feet under…
balconesfault
This is clearly a war within Islam. America has as much chance of helping sort it out as an airplane strafing the field in the middle of the Super Bowl would have helped decide if the Patriots or the Seahawks were the better team.
Chances are, we’ll have as much success at tilting the outcome the way we’d like it to come out as my metaphorical random airstrike would if called in by a New England or Seattle fan …
japa21
Thanks to the media presenting ISIS as an existential threat to the US (it isn’t and never will be) and the world (it isn’t and never will be).
ISIS would love to have the US specially and other Western nations send in troops. That is part of the reason they have ratcheted up their barbarism. They are actually losing some support among Muslims in the area because of the things they have done recently. Their reasoning, IMO, is to get the so-called Christian nations to send in troops so it can be a case of their trying to defend the Islamic religion and way of life against the Christian hordes. They believe this would start turning area Muslims back to their side (at least the Sunnis).
The question is “Why do John McCain and Lindsay Graham want to help ISIS by sending in ground troops?”
Lee
I have a suggestion. I read this somewhere and I firmly agree with it.
Instead of ‘boots on the ground’ how about ‘young Americans in harm’s way’. ‘boots on the ground’ dehumanizes the entire endeavor.
Violet
@balconesfault:
Is this being said by anyone in charge of anything? I didn’t see the president’s speech yesterday. Did he say that?
BGinCHI
Let’s at least take all their oil and hummus this time.
Halcyan
Maybe the question needs to be asked: Do you want your son or daughter to be part of the ground troops? No? How about your neighbors son or daughter? No? WHOSE sons and daughters ought to be doing this, then?
japa21
@Punchy: Note that those Egyptian heads they lopped off were Coptic Christian heads. This was too much even for the Egyptian government.
Zam
There is a certain section of this country that does believe all we need to do is go in there bust a few skulls and that will break ISIS, because they seem to think that organizations like this operate the same way governments and nations have throughout history. You just need to beat their army on the field and they’re done for.
Elizabelle
Why don’t we just behead and incinerate a bunch of young US soldiers and airmen here? At least their parents will get their remains back.
I think the question should be “when is YOUR child — or when are you, you personally, Mr. or Mrs. armchair — shipping out to fight people who belong in the middle ages?”
Is this a poll taken in the wake of “American Sniper” being such a big hit?
Americans have the wrong idea about “patriots.”
japa21
@balconesfault: I question if this is a war within Islam, particularly of the Sunni vs Shiite variety. When even the most prominent Sunni clerics condemn ISIS this has turned into something beyond that.
Halcyan
@japa21:
BINGO
Wilson Michael
ISIL appears to be succeeding at its PR campaign to lure the US into a ground war.
Elizabelle
@japa21:
And there it is.
William Randolph Hearst was a far more honest soul.
Spinwheel
Hysterical.
There’s already thousands of American ground troops in Iraq and Syria and your buddy Obama put them there. His AUMF proposal effectively authorizes perpetual ground war across the entire planet.
Where was your outrage then, asshole?
Tinare
I blame the fact that we have sanitized new coverage of war since Vietnam. The folks at home don’t want to see the caskets come home or news coverage that contains any blood, so we haven’t seen the sort of stark, horrible photos and news footage that made Vietnam so unpopular.
japa21
I respectfully request that nobody respond to the sociopath.
raven
@Spinwheel: Fuck you pansy ass motherfucker. Where the hell have you ever been beside’s your mother’s basement?
West of the Cascades
Do any of these polls lead off with the question “If the US sent ground troops to fight ISIS, would you volunteer to join the military and deploy to Iraq and Syria”?
I bet the answer would be around 5%-10% “yes,” and then the rest of the answers to the questions whether we should send troops wouldn’t be any higher than the proverbial 27%.
Matt McIrvin
I’ve heard a remarkable number of people talking exactly like they did in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, just from seeing those gruesome ISIS videos. I think it’s quite possible that Jeb Bush could go all the way in 2016 out of nostalgia for his brother.
balconesfault
@japa21:
Nope – this isn’t between Sunni and Shiite … this is between Islam and Islamists … the former want to practice their religion and live in peace, the latter want to establish a global caliphate and embrace the long and violent struggle it will take to achieve that.
And the reality is that we’re like a bull in a china shop in that conflict – much of what we do to try to help the first group only has the potential to generate more recruits to join the latter group. We’re screwed either way, so we might as well save American dollars and lives.
Botsplainer
I heard the drumbeat on wingnut talk radio this AM. You could hear the fear in the voice of the shut-ins.
My personal theory is that the notion of “going in to win all the way, no PC rules” means they want substantial collateral damage among innocents to prove American commitment because freedom.
Chyron HR
@Spinwheel:
Hey, Spincuck, did you have to watch when Zandar slept with your wife, or did you only find out about it when all your friends were making fun of you afterwards?
Pogonip
@JMG: Hoo-ah! I’d be rooting for them all the way!
RareSanity
@raven:
Zandar is going to get jealous of you ptichin’ woo to his stalker.
LOL
Keith G
If the history of mankind teaches us anything, it teaches us that the road to military aggression is short, smooth, and downhill. It’s our default setting. It’s what we do.
The struggle against this perverse type of autopilot is a noble cause, but it is a cause very difficult to successfully advocate for.
If the Obama administration as a whole feels that military action, boots on the ground, is not only unnecessary but potentially disastrous, it is incumbent upon them to vigorously and forcefully make the argument and make it stick.
SatanicPanic
I support sending them as long as their mission is to offer them Nutella and kittens
JPL
Who would have thought that weeks of the media telling the public that you can’t defeat ISIS without boots on the ground, would convince the public that we need boots on the ground. well duh!
JMG
One faint positive is that any American pol with half a brain knows that this war fever is a very, very temporary majority opinion and would dissolve within six months as the quagmire became obvious. Obama’s not going to do it unless Baghdad was about to fall (unlikely) and any new President would see their administration in tatters if they start another war.
RSA
@Lee:
I know. It’s like ‘airdrop of footwear’. Uh, no. American soldiers will be killed.
Mnemosyne (iPad Mini)
@japa21:
As I’ve said before, I would only be fine with the US providing logistical and other behind-the-scenes support, and this is part of the reason why — if ISIL can claim that they’re part of the “clash of civilizations” and are fighting Christian hegemony, it’s game over. The effort against ISIL must be led by Muslim-majority countries. Saudi Arabia needs to get off its fucking ass and do its part. Qatar, Jordan, and Egypt all sound like they’re on board.
Iowa Old Lady
@JMG: I don’t know. I hope you’re right, but short term thinking seems to rule.
GregB
Fucking Bill O’Rielly wants to declare war on over a billion people.
I am pretty sure we’re getting slow walked into an Apocalypse by the fanatics from the three Abrahamic faiths.
Botsplainer
@Chyron HR:
Spincuck cleans off the bull.
Botsplainer
Actually, I did hear one of the screamers on another program yesterday get frustrated when talking to a retired O6 military analyst. The colonel very patiently stated that the administration cannot afford to alienate moderate Islam by speaking recklessly about a war with segments of Islam, as we need them to be the boots on the ground. That wingnut host got pretty frustrated.
NorthLeft12
This same level of stupidity is being exhibited up here in Canada too. Polls are showing increasing support for even more intrusive legislation to combat terrorism in Canada, and support for the mission in Iraq is growing as well.
All thanks to the Cons and their enablers in the media for ramping up the fear and hate. And I will also credit the seemingly growing number of pant wetters here in Canada who somehow believe that ISIS fighters will show up on their doorstep any day now.
FrY10cK
If Iraq had not been bombed back to the stone age starting in 1991 with Operation Desert Storm, then devastated by years of sanctions, then bombed again and occupied for 12 years, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant would not exist. Intentionally or not, ISIL serves the interests of U.S. corporate elites and end-times Christian extremists.
Even a war-porn writer like Tom Clancy, were he still alive, couldn’t imagine a more perfect villain to serve as a foil for those who want more war.
Ned
I’m going to work on a new country pop radio song, soaring chorus with words like freedom and America, and the accompanying video, lots of big wavy flags in the background and attractive actors dressed in fatigues. Maybe some grateful smiling Iraqis running along tanks. Gonna be a hit.
Tractarian
Devil’s advocate here.
A wise man once said “I don’t oppose all wars. What I am opposed to is a dumb war.”
If you recall, in late 2001, the US invaded and occupied Afghanistan on the grounds that its de-facto government, the Taliban, was providing safe haven for terrorists, include perpetrators of 9/11.
There was some, but not much, outrage over that decision. To most liberals, including me and a certain Illinois State Senator, it seemed like a reasonable response to 9/11. This was despite the fact that, as everyone knew, a prolonged ground campaign would mean thousands of dead soldiers and civilians.
ISIS circa 2015 is akin to the Taliban circa 2001. Their ideology commands them to kill Westerners, and they control territory, which means they have the space and freedom to carry out their ideology.
Bottom line: If you were OK with invading Afghanistan in 2001, you should be OK with invading Iraq and Syria now to neutralize ISIS.
Of course, it is understandable that
mostmany Americans think the idea of a ground invasion is ludicrous. After all, we just spent 10 years suffering a long, slow defeat in Iraq. And yes, there are abundant reasons to be skeptical of the military-industrial complex and the seemingly limitless influence it has over decision-makers in our government.But Iraq was a “dumb war” based on false pretenses and executed incompetently. Don’t let Bush’s incompetence and mendacity cloud your vision over what is an appropriate situation to use military force.
Patrick
Not surprised. These are the same folks that supported the invasion of Iraq in the first place.
By the way, did ISIS even exist before Bush so idiotically attacked Iraq in 2003? If not, won’t there be another replacement to ISIS when we defeat the current ISIS?
MomSense
@raven:
Hey wait a minute, don’t cast aspersions on mother’s basements!
Davis X. Machina
The same neighbor I have who was thrilled that Bush was president in 2001/2 — “Because if Gore won, he’d have surrendered to The Terrorists and it would be illegal to be a Christian, and we’d all be wearing burqas” — iand was thrilled by the Iraq war — Saddam’s Al Qaeda operatives were going to car-bomb the food court at the mall and kill all her children — is now terrified by ISIS.
BA from the flagship campus of our blue-state state university, too. This is not an adontic trailer-dweller.
It’s like the only way you can be sure you’re alive is to check and see if you’re afraid.
“Am I alive? Yep. I’m terrified beyond the capacity for rational thought.”
We’re a nation of Venkmans.
cokane
frankly the current US gov’t could learn something from the history of the civil rights movement in this country. Look I dont want to make light of the awful beheadings, but going in and bombing and occupying is not going to win converts. The best thing to do is frankly sit back and be the peaceful nation we need to be and let ISIS and other militants burn themselves down.
Blacks were treated basically in the manner as ISIS’s victims for decades in the US. The civil rights movement responded peacefully for the most part, even in the face of incredible terrorism, oftentimes state sponsored. The brutality of that terrorism was exposed and as a result its adherents shrunk and shrunk. It wasn’t perfect, but it worked.
JPL
@Tractarian: ISIL grew because of our invasion. When the government of Iraq
shut out a large part of their population, they were willing to just lay down arms. I’m not sure how you confront that. I’m not against boots on the ground, but they need to be middle eastern boots. We don’t have legitimacy to fight that war.
imo
srv
We still have a lot of people left to burn through, just like the Saudi’s do. Yin, Yang.
I find it funny all the western media is writing about what a ‘mistake’ ISIS is making with these videos. Even Pat Lang is itching to get the New Crusade on.
Betty Cracker
@Tractarian:
Not necessarily. Al Qaeda’s MO was to attack Western targets in the Middle East AND stage mass casualty attacks in Western countries. These ISIL clowns seem more focused on conquering territory in the Middle East. It’s up to the people whom they aspire to rule to reject and defeat them. Our involvement just increases their credibility.
Violet
I wish someone would either resurrect or update the “only thing we have to fear is fear itself” concept. We’ve turned into–or maybe we always were–a nation of cowards. The rightwing media circus loves selling fear because it brings in ratings. Calling out the fear itself would be bold and new. Some politician could really get somewhere with doing that.
Botsplainer
Support Jordan. Support Egypt. Support Palestine. Support Turkey and both the Christian and Muslim populations in Beirut. Support Damascus. Don’t antagonize Tehran.
Above all, tell Netanyahu to cool his fucking jets.
Mandalay
@Matt McIrvin:
Well then he is going to have to raise his level of crazy quite a bit. Right now he’s just spewing platitudes over ISIS:
Not much “boots on the ground” or any other specifics in Bush’s pablum.
Mr. Reasonable will be painted as a spineless blathering wimp by the Clinton campaign. I don’t have much time for Clinton, but she’d rag doll that fraudster in the debates.
Violet
@Botsplainer: How’s his speechifying coming along these days? Is he still planning to speak to Congress before the Israel election?
catclub
@japa21:
Just barely. While they were kidnapped, but before the video came out, the government ignored the relatives trying to get the Egyptian government to pay attention.
japa21
@srv: Well, if they don’t get what they really want, Western combat troops on the ground, but only alienate themselves more from the Muslim population in the area, then they are making a mistake. If the Western powers send in troops, they will not have made a mistake.
Roger Moore
@Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):
Starting with cutting off the KSA->IS money spigot. That by itself would do more good than any military help they’re likely to provide.
catclub
@Violet: The thing that Jesus says most often in the Gospels is
“Fear not.”
japa21
@Violet: During much of Bush’s reign, I was calling for a change to the ending of the national anthem from “the home of the brave” to the “Home of the cowards”. Guess I’ll have to resurrect that campaign.
FrY10cK
@Tractarian:Invasion of Afghanistan followed by a 14-year-long occupation is the very definition of a “dumb war.” We didn’t need a GWOT. We needed a war on a couple hundred guys in caves.
Rumsfeld called off the attack on Tora Bora ostensibly out of respect for a Muslim holiday. Yeah right. Bin Laden was much more valuable to the military-industrial complex alive than dead.
ET
First of ISIS seems and is very scary and people are responding to that. That ISIS poses little existential threat to the U.S. is beside the point. They just want “something” done to take the scary away. While they won’t be a part of this beyond seeing it on TV or the Internet just makes it seem that much easier. Most Americans don’t really think about what success looks like they just think send the troops and they will be successful (whatever that is) just because they are Americans. They don’t look and see the post 9/11 and before that Viet Nam “results” – they just want the bad guy du jour to go away – or at least me marginalized to a point they can ignore.
Woodrowfan
this is an internal Muslim war. Us invading Iraq/Syria to intervene would be like the Ottomans invading Germany during the Reformation to take sides between Lutherans, Catholics and Anabaptists. And about as welcome.
catclub
@Tractarian:
The key point being it was safe haven for terrorists whose aim was squarely on the West – the far enemy.
Quite unlike ISIS (at this point). So not really like the Taliban.
Violet
@catclub: Yep. The Christianists don’t like to focus on that, though. Too wimpy. Their Jesus isn’t a soshulist.
@japa21: It usually don’t work very well to call people things like cowards. But a smart politician could call out people’s fear and how it seems to be running many of the wingnut politicians brains and how we succeed when we don’t let fear dictate our decisions. Change the discussion.
Snarki, child of Loki
And yet, when a deranged gun-fondler kill a bunch of little kids in an elementary school in Sandy Hook, the reaction is “Meh. Whatchagonnado?”
C’mon, Thor, push that planet-killer asteroid just a little more to the right, m’kay? This bunch of naked apes have done earned it.
catclub
@Roger Moore: I think the KSA may have realized just this point. Lowering the oil price kills off income for ISIS, as well as Russia, as well as new US oil.
I think they also noticed that ISIS has aims on Mecca, and is not particularly subject to moral persuasion.
Some General noted that oil is no longer the major income for ISIS.
srv
@Tractarian:
We did not know in 2001 whether we were attacking Afghanistan as a Counter-Terrorist operation or if we were invading, occupying, nation building and Phase IV and all that.
W cleared that up in his 2002 SOTU, so I can give people a pass for 2001, but not 2002.
Anything we send into Iraq now is effectively more nation-building than CT. We could wipe out this current generation of ISIS and we’d still have a civil war in Syria and Iraq. So unless we’re going to bring Jefferson to Baghdad or draw a new Sykes-Picot we’re on a fool’s errand.
Peale
If its true what I read here in either one of the articles or comments – that what is driving a lot of people to join the caliphate is a belief that we are approaching end times set out in scriptures (I think I read somehting like year 1500 or 2076), we are going to have to be prepared to deal with this lunacy for 60 more years until that anniversary passes and the folks promoting that date are discredited. We are gong to be dealing with Boko Haram and their little Caliphate and ISIS and theirs and AQ in Yemen and theirs for sixty years and who knows where the next one will be.
Good luck.
elmo
@Tractarian:
You’re overlooking the consequences of the “dumb war.” We no longer have the same resources as we did in 2001, so the two situations aren’t parallel.
First, we no longer have the same military. It’s exhausted. The military is a collection of men and women who have been required to deploy to the Middle East over, and over, and over, for well over a decade now. Most of the people who would be ordered to deploy to Syria have already done multiple overseas combat deployments, seen their efforts come to tears, and lost blood and friends in a pointless waste.
Second, we no longer have the same budget. In 2001 we had a budget surplus and had just come off nearly a decade of strong growth. Since then, we’ve had the worst recession in 70 years and – oh yes – a dumb war that cost the treasury trillions of dollars. Trillions. And the bills are still coming in.
We may be Exceptional America, the richest nation on Earth, the shining city on a hill, but even our resources are not limitless. They are vast, but they are not infinite. Our roads and bridges are crumbling, our education system is a horror, and we are still struggling to figure out how to pay for basic health care for our citizens.
The “dumb war” not only cost lives and treasure, but also opportunity. As it turns out, we spent the resources we need now. So we don’t have them anymore.
japa21
@Violet: I know. And I agree. Doesn’t mean I’m not tempted.
Holden Pattern
@Tractarian:
On the other hand, anyone with half an ounce of sense and the smallest amount of historical information about the Graveyard of Empires knew that occupying Afghanistan was a stupid idea bound to end in at best a low-intensity guerilla war.
Unfortunately, Americans are short on both of those attributes and long on the need (from emotional or instrumentalist reasons — I place the Senator from Illinois in the latter camp) to believe that America can do anything as long as we do it with violence.
catclub
@Keith G: I think the Obama should emphasize a war tax to pay for any effort against ISIS. It is the opposite of what GWBush did.
gogol's wife
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. In our church, starting with the Iraq invasion, we ring bells every Sunday for each U.S. service person who’s been killed that week. Since Obama has been president, first the number of bells went steadily down, and now for weeks we have rung no bells at all (which NEVER happened under Bush). If every American had the visceral experience of hearing those bells every week, maybe they’d appreciate Obama more, and maybe they’d be more resistant to the television propaganda.
FrY10cK
@Snarki, child of Loki: Insightful:
But show Americans scary pictures of people being killed have way around the world and they piss their pants and call for more war. The media companies are doing ISIL’s work for them.
gogol's wife
@Snarki, child of Loki:
AMEN TO YOUR FIRST PARAGRAPH.
Waynski
@Davis X. Machina:
I could be wrong, but I think it was Harold Ramis’ character (Egan) that delivered that line in Ghostbusters. Nevertheless, good point.
Kryptik, A Man Without A Country
@Violet:
It’s not just that we’re a nation of cowards. As I’ve said before, we are a nation of cowards who have been convinced that our cowardice is actually the utmost bravery, and that the bravery to not get piss-scared at every shadow is somehow really cowardice.
If we’re not shooting at everything that moves, we’re apparently wimpy shivering pansies that don’t have the guts to kill everything in sight like real men do.
Betty Cracker
@FrY10cK: This.
Botsplainer
@ET:
Problem is that ISIS/ISIL is an apocalyptic cult that is in a position to represent an existential threat to a not insubstantial chunk of the market in the oil that makes all the little motors go “chugga-chugga-chugga”. Due to decades of American policy which led to the tacit approval of pillaging oligarchs in those countries (all to facilitate the continued existence of America’s bellicose little “bestest friend and ally EVAR”), conditions were ripe for ISIS/ISIL to rise among the impoverished. That market disruption would benefit – mightily – a number of nihilists in the KSA who profit handsomely in the traffic of oil, so there’s a lot of motivation to make things be a lot worse for millions of people.
JPL
If you had a poll that said what would be better
Regional troops on the ground
U.S troops on the ground
don’t know
You’d see a different result. Of course, the repubs would still say US troops or at least 27 percent would.
Holden Pattern
@Kryptik, A Man Without A Country:
Seriously, can I get an AMEN here? Our ruling classes are people who spend their entire day pissing their pants in public and calling it brave truth-telling. And too many of the rest of us have gone along with it because it makes us believe that pissing our pants in fear is our own personal contribution to American exceptionalism.
Botsplainer
@Kryptik, A Man Without A Country:
The right wing fauxrage over the Haditha investigations tells a lot.
Frankensteinbeck
@Botsplainer:
This means ‘make no attempt whatsoever to reduce civilian casualties.’ And by ‘whatsoever’ I mean that they’re on-board with using nuclear weapons to kill the entire population of Iraq, with the only proviso that some of them are worried the radiation might reach America. This is not hyperbole. I have just enough conservative relatives to have heard the ‘I’m fine with Israel bombing a school. They would just grow up to be terrorists anyway.’ arguments.
@Tractarian:
You make an excellent argument, but there are critical differences here.
First, while no one liked Afghanistan, they were not at war with anyone who could have fought the war without American troops, reducing the ‘bull in a china shop’ effect.
Second, the worldwide political environment was different. Nobody liked the Taliban, and everybody flat-out hated Al Qaeda, including other Islamic governments. That is quite similar to ISIL. If we had taken them out and rebuilt Afghanistan properly then, the Muslim world would have mostly given us a pass. After George And Dick’s Clusterfuck Adventure, we’ll be viewed as a conquering hostile power by everybody from minute one if we step in now.
Third, as already mentioned, one of Al Qaeda’s major goals was largescale civilian deaths in the US. They proved that they could and would keep doing it if they were left alone. ISIL has not done that.
Fourth, ISIL may own territory, but they are clinging to it by the skin of their teeth right now. This is not a good base of operations to launch attacks on the US, and they’re unlikely to keep it thanks to their determination to make enemies of absolutely everyone, especially their own people.
Number three is probably the most important of those arguments, but in general there is only a superficial similarity between the arguments to invade Afghanistan and ISIL. It’s not actually the same thing.
The argument that might get us in there is that Obama is very sensitive to large scale civilian deaths. Preventing the imminent genocide of a city was the factor he rated most important in the Libyan intervention. Given how fast and completely he turned things over to NATO and got us out, I suspect even ISIL’s butcheries won’t get much direct involvement out of him.
Botsplainer
@JPL:
Option 4 – Medicare/Medicaid paid mobility scooters on the ground.
Vtr
Perhaps someone should introduce a bill in the Senate and the House calling for a military draft just listen to McConnell and Boehner explain their refusal to bring the bills to a vote. Talk is cheap.
deep
Of course Americans love war. We all learn from a young age about the “greatest” generation and we see movies of rugged soldiers fighting against HITLER and we think that is SOOOO cool. So we need to be at war 100% of the time. Consequences be damned.
Bill
Our collective response to ISIS confuses me.
Clearly these are terrible people committing atrocities We should do what we can to help eliminate them. (Hint, bombing/shooting them isn’t going to do it.) But fact is, they pose virtually no threat to Americans. Unless you are an aid worker or journalist in ISIS controlled territory, you have zero chance of being harmed by them. Yet we see these polls indicating Americans see them as a huge threat. What?
ISIS is an enormous threat to people living in IRAQ and Syria. But we have spent the better part of a decade killing those same people. Am I supposed to believe Americans are now deeply worried about the lives of Iraqi’s after overwhelmingly supporting bombing the hell out of them for years?
Also, America killing radicals in the middle east is going to create more radicals who hate America.
Botsplainer
@Vtr:
I’m looking for a Volunteer Pundit Brigade.
Every pundit calling for boots on the ground total war against Islam loads up and each drops with a pallet of food and a few ammo loads into ISIS/ISIL territory. O’Reilly can lead them into glorious combat.
sharl
@elmo:
This cannot be emphasized enough, and the problems in this area manifest themselves in soooo many ways. For example, here’s the Summary from a recent report, “Lying to Ourselves: Dishonesty in the Army Profession” (full 51pp report is available at that link as a free .pdf):
One huge problem is that our media is really reluctant to cover this sort of thing to the extent it merits. Much of that is due to not wanting to be painted as “attacking the military”, which just earns you a bunch of negative wingnut attention, which in turn might affect how much money the Sponsors can make from Boomer-targeted ads on your shows for dick pills and reverse home mortgages {waves to Fred Thompson… ‘howz the pickup truck ridin’ these days?’} Also, getting even slightly into policy issues causes much glazing of the eyes among viewers who have no skin in the game.
Don’t see an easy way to get this message out, but I suspect we’ll have to do it through social media, since traditional media cannot be relied upon, for a number of reasons.
{Waaaah, I REALLY don’t wanna sign up on Book of Faces…but maybe I need to}
Cacti
ISIS has been doing their own version of “shock and awe” to try and provoke a response from the west.
I wish I could say I’m surprised at the poll results, but the United States has spent the last 70 years telling the public it could solve any problem by dropping enough bombs on it.
samiam
“
WeI and others of my kind have learned a grand total of absolutely goddamn nothing over the last 13 years.”Fixed!
Fighting ISIS and invading a country for no reason is just a wee bit different.
Kryptik, A Man Without A Country
@Bill:
Too many of us are still in 9/11 mode, where the belief is if we don’t glass the motherfuckers now, they’ll be on our shores and ‘Hello Sharia’ within a matter of hours. Nevermind that it wasn’t anywhere true back then either, people still think if we aren’t going in guns blazing, the scary swarthy boogie men of Islam will take over.
For people who profess we’re the greatest and most exceptional country in the world, they have a seriously fragile impression of it, like the moment someone dares breathe on it, it’ll collapse unless we kill them before they get close.
Belafon
@The Moar You Know:
Not that I’m using this to justify anything, but find any stretch of the history of the US of your age length where we weren’t fighting some conflict outside of our country – even ignoring the atrocities against the Indians – for longer than seven years.
Redshift
@Tractarian:
False equivalence. Afghanistan didn’t have to be a “prolonged ground campaign,” that screwed-up decision was separate from the question of whether or not it was worth going in at all. (And the unbelievable screwup of pulling troops out to prepare for war with Iraq and letting the top al Qaeda leadership get away.)
Notwithstanding the general false equivalence of “this is exactly like that, so if you disagreed with me back then, you have to take the same bad position now.” Nothing is exactly the same, conditions are never exactly the same, and knowledge of the situation is never exactly the same. Feel smug and superior if you want, but that doesn’t make it a valid argument.
No One of Consequence
@Lee: Oh *HELL* yes. This. Will start using immediately.
Followed up by (directed at gung-ho, oo-rah, let’s you and him fight kind of arm-chair patriots) : What the hell are you gonna do when they get a USAF or USMC pilot or grunt in one of them cages, and then light ’em up?
What the fuck are you gonna tell that kid’s poor mother? That you’re proud of the sacrifice She made? That she should be proud of the fact that she gave birth to a good American patriot who made the ultimate sacrifice to (sadly only symbolic) try to defeat an idea which would have collapsed on it’s own, or have been taken out/down by its’ neighbors?
Help our real friends in the area. Help Jordan. Tell the House of Saud to use some of their oil money to finance their own response. Tell Iraq we would help them, but it didn’t work out so well the last time for everyone involved.
Tell our American Mothers to keep our nation strong by keeping our youth out of stupid foreign entanglements created, perpetuated, financed and guided by old men who should know better.
Sigh.
– NOoC
sharl
@sharl: HahahaSob, I just went back to the site where I learned of this report, and Navy people are tossing in their own examples…basically saying, hey, it ain’t just Army.
Frankensteinbeck
@Kryptik, A Man Without A Country:
I think this comes down to racism. They have seen their country taken over from the inside. The deeper racists are, right now, living in a nightmare dystopia. It doesn’t match our definitions, but it matches theirs. In their lifetimes they have gone from segregation to seeing a black president, miscegenation become routine, women openly demanding not just tolerance but respect, and homosexuals open in public, allowed to marry, and treated as normal. Everything they were warned about when desegregation happened has come to pass. America forcibly converted to Islam does not seem unlikely to them at all.
Tommy
@Bill: My family fights for a living. I never did. Long story. My family is going to be the people that go fight this war. Not a one of them I am aware of thinks it is a good idea. I have never had “family time” where somebody says “hey lets start a land invasion in Central Asia.”
Redshift
@Zam: Actually, that idea that you completely beat them and a war is over is pretty much false for nation-states throughout history, too. I like to call it “WWII syndrome” — it’s the ultimate “just war” in retrospect, we decisively won militarily and got an unconditional surrender, and I think it gave people a nostalgic view that it’s what wars “should” be like. But the fact is that almost no other war has ever been like that. Most are fought until one side doesn’t think they can win, and then they negotiate an end. And in many instances, especially civil wars, it devolves into guerilla war that goes on for years or decades.
Vietnam is mythologized as the exception, but WWII is much more the exception.
Mike in NC
It’s high time we brought back the draft so these bed-wetting red-staters have some skin in the game.
Gindy51
This is being pushed from the back ground by big oil so prices go up at the pump. More cash for them, less for us. Follow the money…
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Bill:
IMO, the problem is that a lot of ordinary people bought into the bullshit We’re fighting them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here rhetoric that the Bush administration was spewing, so they really do think that ISIL will be showing up on our doorstep any day now.
And since there will almost certainly be more than one asshole who will go on a shooting rampage and claim he did it for ISIL, people will take that as confirmation of their pre-existing belief.
Robert M.
@balconesfault: Based on the “What Does ISIS Want?” article in The Atlantic that has been linked here and elsewhere, they aren’t trying to establish a global caliphate–they’ll settle for everything between Istanbul and the Arabian Sea.
As far as popular support for a war against ISIS is concerned, I think it reflects a shallow understanding of the fact that these are really bad guys, and we should do something about it. The fact that it’s not clear what we can actually accomplish over the medium and long term probably isn’t part of the thought process for most respondents.
balconesfault
@Tractarian:
Isn’t this more like invading Afghanistan in July 2001, instead of October?
Laertes
Sounds like we’re pretty fucked. If all you need is a knife and a camcorder to force an American invasion anywhere you like, it’s game over.
balconesfault
@Robert M.:
dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2674736/ISIS-militants-declare-formation-caliphate-Syria-Iraq-demand-Mu…
“However, in a map widely-shared by ISIS supporters on social networks, the Islamist group outlined a five-year plan for how they would like to expand their boundaries beyond Muslim-majority countries.
“As well as plans to expand the caliphate throughout the Middle East, North Africa, and large parts of western Asia, the map also marks out an expansion in parts of Europe.”
Tommy
@balconesfault: I thought invading Iraq at the time was a good idea. I got into the whole post 9/11 thing. I was so wrong. I hope I learned from this mistake on my part.
boatboy_srq
Not entirely true. We’ve learned that Shrub-era estimates of LOE aimed at anything in that sphere, committed for Shrub-era estimated durations, don’t solve the problem. I wouldn’t want to poll how many think nuking Syria and Iran in a single massive strike is the preferred option: my guess would be some major portion of the ones that think ISIS/L is a major threat.
Seems like Fox has won the infotainment wars.
Kropadope
@Botsplainer:
QFT.
Why inject ourselves into a situation virtually none of us understand and we are basically incapable of making better by military means
Support our allies who actually have a horse in this race by letting them purchase aggressively from the Military Industrial Complex. This used to be the American way.
Amir Khalid
@balconesfault:
A five-year plan for conquering parts of Europe? I’m guessing that it’s not a realistic one. Even if they’re aiming only for a reconquest of al-Andalus.
Bob In Portland
Nazis on the march in Lithuania. Go team go.
Bob In Portland
@Tommy: Learn about what’s happening in Eastern Europe.
And the first thing you need to do is ask yourself what the US gets out of all these wars. Not much of a demand in exchange for a war.
You may also notice that you have no say in what wars the US chooses to fight.
D58826
@japa21: The fundamentalist Christian end of the world theology requires the existence of the state of Israel. The ISIL end of the world theology requires a western, preferable American, Christian army on the ground in the middle east. There isn’t much we can do about the Christian fantasy but no need to help the ISIL fantasy along by giving them what they want. Just as Islam could not sort out the religious differences in Reformation era Europe, the west can’t sort out the religious differences between the various flavors of 21st century Islam.
Bob In Portland
@Laertes: Starting to figure out the okeydoke?
Tommy
@Amir Khalid: I might be totally stupid. Open to that fact. But last I checked there is this thing called NATO. Pretty sure we are not going to let ISIA run over European nations.
Bob In Portland
@Robert M.: We did something about it. We armed and trained them, a couple years ago when they were “moderate anti-Assad forces.”
If you start understanding that the chaos is part of the plan then the picture gets clearer.
boatboy_srq
@Punchy: The trouble there is, if the Egyptians and Jordanians (and Turks and Syrians et al) go after IS, then there’s only Cairo and Amman (and Ankara and Damascus etc etc) that will be blamed, and there are enough Muslims angry at IS to stomp them out without making much fuss. If, instead, the US sticks its nose in, then those same people will be far more likely to side with IS against outside presumed-Xtian interference in their world. The US could wipe out all of IS that exists today – and tomorrow face another legion of “new-IS” fighters out to avenge the fallen.
For once, Shrub’s Iraq fiasco will be useful: to all the smaller groups in the region who clamor for US help, the US can point to Iraq and ask whether that’s the kind of help they want because it seems to be the only kind the US can provide. If they still say yes, THEN the US can debate internally whether to step in; but if not, then there’s no reason for them to keep asking, or for the US to engage even at the current level. Other nations tend to forget that the US doesn’t do international well – until it’s their nation that the US is involved with, and by then it’s usually too late.
schrodinger's cat
@balconesfault: Yeah that’s a realistic plan!
boatboy_srq
@balconesfault: They probably think they can bring the Kosovars and Chechens along. Thanks to Russian and Serbian efforts of the last couple decades they might actually be right.
Frankensteinbeck
@Bob In Portland:
I voted for Obama, and he did not invade Syria, Iran, or Georgia. It appears I do have a say in who the US chooses to fight.
Tommy
@Bob In Portland: Tell me where I go to learn. I am not the smartest guy in the room. But I will try to read and learn.
Tree With Water
That poll is bullshit- don’t let anyone tell you Americans will support another mideast war. Unless you count Israelis as Americans, which of course some do.
schrodinger's cat
@boatboy_srq: And India and China are just going to roll over and play dead for ISIS.
This map sounds as realistic as Kramer’s plan when he was playing Risk with Newman.
Amir Khalid
@schrodinger’s cat:
It might just work, though, if they’ve set up enough “Sharia law no-go zones” in cities like Birmingham, London and Paris …
D58826
This has been a rather depressing heavy duty thread. Fortunately we have some state legislatures who are activerly trying to protect the American public from REAL threats. Over at Huffington a report on a Ga. legislator’s proposal to address a threat that has probably kept most of us awake at night:
A Murkin that the sage of Wasilla would be proud to call friend.
Sherparick
@Redshift: This is a very good point. WWII and the defeat of Napoleon in 1814-15 were the exceptions where war resulted in final win where the losing side had no itch for a rematch.
This is very emotionally driven. And both the support and narrative would disappear after about six months of IEDs, ambushes, and retaking Falluhjah for the 15th time. It will reeducate Americans on the intractable nature of a guerrilla war fought in a strange land, people speaking a language they do not understand, with no easy way to tell the good guys from the bad guys, giving way to the “let’s kill them all, and let God sort them out” mentality of our wing nut colleagues. Further, who will pay for this “war” (the President should have sent his current authorization with 5% surcharge on millionaire incomes, a 5% surcharge on Defense Contractors profits, and $.25 increase in the gas tax)? But cable TV is trying to boost ratings, so ISIS must be viewed as the existential threat. But when everything is not over in 1 month, that support will sour real fast.
Amir Khalid
@Tommy:
No. NO. NO. Bob in Portland gets everything wrong. Do not turn to him for guidance.
srv
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
It may have been BS before, but ISIS takes great pride that their ideology has spread beyond Syria & Iraq and allies around the world. I’m not sure why people accept that this is an ideology we face, but don’t think that ideology can legitimately spread outside the Levant.
Dabiq Issue #5:
clarionproject.org/news/islamic-state-isis-isil-propaganda-magazine-dabiq
Samuel Knight
The poll would have been a lot more interesting if you asked every American whether they are williing to pay $1,000 to help deal with ISIS. Wars are expensive and a $320 billion price tag is probably a pretty conservative estimate of the cost of going in again.
Kevin Drum had a good point yesterday. Libya, Yemen, Iraq and Afganistan are all utter disasters – so before advocating sending in ground troops, please present a plausible case that this will be different.
Just bizarre that ISIS is reallly freaking people out. 20,000 troops does not a threat to the US pose.
Bob In Portland
@boatboy_srq: If you understood that the US was behind the breakup of Yugoslavia and the Chechen uprising you would have a better understanding of what is happening.
ISIS is an American invention, from the people who gave you the Project For A New American Century.
BJers are getting warmer.
Botsplainer
@balconesfault:
That map is insane. A comic book advance, assuming acquiescence by Iran, a billion Hindus, China and huge chunks of non-Islamic subSaharn Africa, not to mention NATO.
FrY10cK
@Laertes: Insightful:
Heliopause
I hate to be a downer, but a certain Presidential Administration which will remain nameless has been a major driver of the “ISIS is the worst thing in the world” campaign. That certain nameless Administration also says it doesn’t want boots on the ground, but if they want the general population to reach the same conclusion maybe they should step back a bit from the relentless propaganda campaign, hmm?
Citizen_X
@Sherparick: Yeah. What’s going to happen when ISIS posts a video with 20 American sons and daughters in uniform being beheaded, or fried in cages? Sure, the first one will ignite cries for vengeance, but the tenth video? The fifteenth? And you know ISIS will have no compunctions about doing it again and again.
At that point, Americans will say, “Fuck it. It isn’t worth it,” and get out. And ISIS will have their victory: they will be much stronger, and will have defeated the big bad US.
Let ’em keep pissing off their neighbors, like they’ve been doing. That’ll go much worse for them.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Bob In Portland:
It’s okay, I’m sure those are some of those pro-Jewish Nazis you were telling us about the other day.
Gin & Tonic
@Tommy: Tell me where I go to learn.
Not to BiP.
srv
@Samuel Knight:
theronware
Just reinstitute the draft and observe how those numbers change back to pre World War 2 non interventionist levels.
Botsplainer
@Gin & Tonic:
I can’t remember – is BiP a Michael Hastings troother? I know he’s a Danny Casolaro groupie.
The Fat Kate Middleton
Here’s the article so many have been referencing: theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
And we should all read it, I think.
Amir Khalid
@Botsplainer:
Now I have proof that the people in charge of ISIS are not good Muslims. You’d have to be on some pretty strong hallucinogens to come up with that map, and hallucinogens are haram.
Davis X. Machina
@Frankensteinbeck:
Unlikely, and probably desirable, if they ever stopped to think. It would stop the rot.
Swap Jesus for the whole rest of the social agenda? It might work.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@srv:
Better invest in some Depends, because the Islamists are hiding under your bed!1!
Sorry, no. If ISIS jerks manage to become at least as effective in Europe as the IRA or the ETA, then I’ll worry. So far, all you have is a few lone nuts trying to make themselves sound important by claiming they did it for ISIS. I’m assuming you also think the Tsarnaevs are part of the global Islamic jihad because they claimed to be acting on behalf of Chechen rebels.
Citizen_X
@Bob In Portland:
Jesus Fucking Christ, have you ever, I don’t know, read a history book or something? It’s the fucking Balkans. The fact that Tito was able to hold them together as one country for 35 years is a goddam miracle.
Calouste
@balconesfault: The Daily Mail is the UK equivalent of the New York Post. It’s Chief Political Correspondent resigned the other day because they were not allowed to publish articles critical of HSBC, one of it’s largest advertisers, while there is a major scandal going on involving HSBC helping rich customers dodge taxes.
I won’t believe anything published in the Daily Mail without double checking, including the publication date,
Violet
@balconesfault:
It’s on Twitter and Facebook? Gotta be true!
Belafon
@Heliopause: The same administration that declared that they can’t all be killed?
D58826
Juan Cole had a long piece about the 7 ISIL myths. One myth was confusing ISIL in the Iraq/Syria area with every ISIL-wannabe in the Middle east. ‘ISIL’ has become a brand name and any 6 guys with three muskets and a lame camel in the desert can claim to be an ISIL branch. With lucky Butters and McNutts will sponsor legislation to dedicate a fleet of drones to rooting out this existential threat to to to, well whatever.
He also made the point that the overwhelming number of Muslims view ISIL as a sick perverted joke. There really isn’t a groundswell of support for them in the Muslim world. Unfortunately it doesn’t take many thugs with guns to get the Faux news wingnuts attention if it looks like they can use it to bash Obama.t
SRW1
That Bin Laden dude was a smart cookie. At least as far as concerns his judgment what it takes to goad the US into a splendid little military adventure. Apparently, the ISIS dudes did pay attention.
Now here’s my question: Once in Iraq during W’s adventure, it took four mutilated contractors to commit the US to an all in assault against the Sunni insurgency. How many decapitated US soldiers will it take for another decade plus commitment once there are boots on the ground to fight ISIS?
Frankensteinbeck
Deleted because @Mnemosyne (iPhone) put it so much better.
Belafon
@Violet: You don’t think a group like this wouldn’t use the internet to communicate their goals? I don’t mean this in a Godwin way, but Hitler wrote a book about his goals, and used television to broadcast the might of his military and attempted to use it to show the superiority of the German people in the Olympics.
ETA: Even bin Laden new when some propaganda was a useful thing.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Citizen_X:
Didn’t you know? The CIA controls the whole world. People in other countries have no aims, ambitions, or history of their own. They all just wait around for the CIA to tell them what to think and what to do.
OGLiberal
@Betty Cracker: Exactly. Say what you will about the Wood piece but one of the things that he wrote that I think is 100% true and correct is that the folks who joined ISIL want to be in Syria/Iraq fighting apostate Muslims and growing the caliphate. The people who are fans of ISIL outside of that region want nothing more than to get to that region to fight apostate Muslims and grow the caliphate. They are not interested in flying planes into skyscrapers in NYC or blowing up synagogues in Paris.This is about an end times prophecy, building a caliphate as per the prophecy, establishing Sharia law based on a very ancient reading of the Koran, and killing as many apostate Muslims as possible. Nasty, horrible things but not a threat to us and not our problem to solve….at least not with boots on the ground.
No One of Consequence
@Amir Khalid: Sweet, sweet haram…
– NOoC
schrodinger's cat
@Amir Khalid: Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think the Caliphate as is drawn on the map linked in the comments here, has ever been a concrete reality. Looks like the men in black are high on hashish.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Belafon:
As others have said, though, pretty much any a-hole with a grudge can open a Facebook or Tumblr account and claim to be part of ISIL. There doesn’t seem to be much of an official command and control structure, so it’s hard to tell which internet outlets are “real” ISIL and which ones are dudes wanting to look like badasses.
IIRC, one of the big websites claiming to be straight from ISIL turned out to be some guy in India who lived in his parents’ basement. The power and problem with the internet is that anyone can claim to be representing anyone they please. At least Hitler published under his own name.
srv
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): They didn’t even need a Sheik to completely shutdown the enlightened liberal bastion of Boston for a couple of days.
AQ was a ME network. ISIL is filled with westerners.
Imagine what happens when someone gets a strategery.
chopper
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
shit, bob thinks the gubbermint invented HIV. of course he thinks the CIA is behind everything.
Bob In Portland
@Frankensteinbeck: @Frankensteinbeck: You voted for Obama. The US supplied and trained al-Nusra, who were the “moderate anti-Assad” Syrians. Now they are ISIS. They provide the US with another war. You have no say.
The US aka NATO bombed Libya into chaos. Now ISIS has a foothold there.
You must believe that the US is utterly incompetent in its warring or they’re doing it for a reason. BJers have a problem with connecting the dots.
D58826
@OGLiberal: AAs I read that article and tried to figure out ‘who was on first’ I finally gave up. The religious, ethnic, tribal connections are so intertwined and have such a deep history that outsiders will never be able to figure them out much less back the ‘good guys’. No matter who we support will be a minority in one group[ or another and no matter who we bomb we will piss off the majority.
Bob In Portland
@chopper: “The government” is such a vague term. Do you use the term “the government” when you talk about the NSA? And do you include Obama as part of that government?
sharl
@srv: Do you have a link for that quote? Or is it a joke based on the kind of frontier gibberish a wingnut politician would plausibly be expected to utter?
By the way, in trying (unsuccessfully) to find a source for your quote, I looked for the ‘just-go-shopping’ pseudo-quote attributed to Dubya just after the 9/11 attacks. It turns out that Shrub never actually uttered those particular words. It was rather a part of TIME magazine commentator Frank Pellegrini’s (sympathetic and supportive) interpretation of Shrub’s message.
D58826
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): and BiP controls the CIA
Helmut Monotreme
Bob in Portland sees conspiracies everywhere. Pigs at a trough? Clearly they are conspiring together to eliminate swill! As opposed to greedy little animals getting all they can while they can. It might not make much difference to the swill, but the last thing that is happening in that situation is collusion and cooperation.
Gin & Tonic
@Botsplainer: I don’t know and I don’t care.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Mnemsy, the CIA is the coal and iron police for the world, working on behalf of the corporatists. It was created by corporatists for that purpose. That’s what they’ve done.
Anyone who thinks anything is too evil for the CIA to do isn’t asking the right questions. The right question is “Is it profitable?” And not profitable for the taxpayers. Profitable for the corporations.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Bob In Portland:
Yes, God forbid we should think that the Bush administration that employed people like Doug “stupidest fucking guy on the planet” Feith was incompetent or something. Clearly it’s insane to think that the people who sent undergraduate interns to Iraq to rewrite their constitution were morons. No, it was all part of a deeply brilliant plan that we’re all just too dim to understand.
Now I’m starting to think that you’re a pseudonym for John Hindraker, the guy who wrote sad paens to the unappreciated genius of George W Bush.
D58826
ISIL has murdered 4 Americans. 4 Americans died in Benghazi. And from Huffington
Will this get anywhere near the coverage? Unless Faux news can find a way to blame it on Obama or Obamacare I suspect it won’t It certainly looks like, for most Americans, they are at greater risk in their doctor’s office than from ISIL.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Bob In Portland:
The problem for you, Bob, is that you assume that evil is automatically competent.
Mike in dc
Shorter BiP:
Back, and to the left. Back, and to the left. Back, and to the left.
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
obama invented HIV? shit, this rabbit hole goes deeper than i thought!
srv
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Occam’s Razor never saw WTC7 coming.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@srv:
Huh? 9/11 was the second attack on the WTC by al-Qaeda. One of the reasons so many people inside the buildings survived was that they did regular evacuation drills after the first attack in the 1990s so everyone knew how to get out quickly and safely.
The only people who didn’t know AQ would try attacking the WTC again were the morons in the Bush administration.
Bob In Portland
@Tommy: consortiumnews.com, the Vineyard of the Saker, Russian Insider, Pepe Escobar, Patrick L. Smith, Colonel Cassad, Alexander Mercouris.
Start there. Then note how certain stories are reported on “reputable” news sources like the BBC and NPR. For example, they never seem to mention who is shelling the civilian population in eastern Ukraine. They don’t tell you that for two reasons: the first is that it’s a war crime, and the second is that if you know that the Kiev government is running a war of destruction against the east you’ll begin to see the actual reasons why the Novorussians are fighting Kiev. If you rely on the western media you would almost think that no one in the east is fighting, that it’s merely a war by Russia.
You should also look up the history of the US and the Ukrainian Nazis, which is nicely summarized in an interview of Russ Bellant in The Nation about a year ago. 70 years of cultivating those little swastikas. With your tax dollars.
Then look for old copies of Covert Action Quarterly (the 80s and 90s) that deal with Paul Weyrich and the NGOs that “brought democracy” to Eastern Europe after the fall of the Soviet Union. You’ll also get a glimpse at the ground floor of NSA spying.
There are plenty of books. I’ve always liked THE CUNNING OF HISTORY, as excellent book to understand the Holocaust. Then there’s any number of Christopher Simpson books. His book, THE SPLENDID BLONDE BEAST goes into the post-WWI oil game played by the west in the Middle East. His book BLOWBACK goes into detail about how the US recruited Nazis and fascists post-WWII to fight the Soviets. His THE SCIENCE OF COERCION is about the beginnings of “the Mighty Wurlitzer” or the US propaganda machine post-WWII.
There are other books. BLOOD IN THE FACE touches on the civil war in Ukraine the US waged in the late forties, early fifties, supporting the OUN, but it’s mostly about fascism in the US. DREAMER OF THE DAY is about the fascist third position after WWII. It essentially explains the malleability of post-WWII fascism, wherein anyone can be a fascist. Another book, by Martin A. Lee, THE BEAST REAWAKENS, is about the resurgence of fascism.
Plenty to read there.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): They knew. If you think they were morons then what does that make you?
Bob In Portland
@chopper: Saying absurd things and then attributing them to me is one of the oldest propaganda tricks in the book. So you have learned something in your life.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: Have you read Timothy Snyder’s Bloodlands? Robert Conquest’s Harvest of Sorrow?
Paul in KY
@Amir Khalid: I think they’ve been playing too much Risk.
Chris
@Tommy:
Watch Captain America: The Winter Soldier. The story is pretty much exactly BIP’s worldview, packaged in much more entertaining format.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Bob In Portland:
As we have discussed before, Bob, this is yet another marker for your conspiracy obsession. In your mind, mistakes don’t exist. Incompetence doesn’t exist. Coincidences don’t exist. Everything happens as part of a perfectly conceived plan, and any evidence of a mistake or miscalculation is explained away as having been part of the plan all along.
You find this strangely comforting, because you would rather believe that a completely competent, always alert organization is running everything to perfection than admit that human beings frequently fail, make mistakes, and plan badly. Sure, it’s an evil organization running the world, but at least they’re good at it, amirite?
Bob In Portland
@Mike in dc: In late September, early October, someone was impersonating Lee Harvey Oswald over CIA-tapped phones and in front of CIA surveillance cameras in front of the Cuban consulate and Soviet embassy in Mexico City. The pictures survived the destruction of evidence. You can google them, “fake Oswald Mexico City”. This guy looks nothing like Oswald.
Now this is a logic test for you. Other BJers simply refuse to answer it.
Six weeks before the JFK assassination Oswald, according to his official biography, was a nobody. Maybe crazy, maybe a commie, but he was a nobody. Why would anyone impersonate him in front of the Soviet embassy and Cuban consulate in Mexico City?
It’s a simple logic question. BJers, as is their desire, refuse to connect the dots. Who would benefit? Who would know that Lee Harvey Oswald would be accused of killing the President six weeks before it happened? Who knew the phone lines were bugged by the CIA? Who knew about the surveillance cameras? And why did the FBI stop following Oswald after the incident?
Simple logic question. Mike in dc, maybe you have a simple, innocent explanation, but I doubt it. John Newman addressed it twenty years ago. So has Peter Dale Scott.
Rafer Janders
@Belafon:
1812 to 1846, the 34-year period from the War of 1812 to the Mexican-American War.
1848 to 1898, the 50-year period from the end of the Civil War to the Spanish-American War.
1973 to 1990, the 17-year period from the end of US combat involvement in the Vietnam War to the Gulf War (I’m ignoring the invasions of Grenada and Panama, which each took little over a week).
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
yes, it’s obviously propaganda. it couldn’t possibly be me making fun of your silly ass. it’s propaganda.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): No mistakes exist. Generally, they are paved over with lies and you believe them. If you think that the US has been getting into wars over the last fifty years by mistake, then that’s your problem. You’re not so clever and you think that if there had been any conspiratorial thinking then you’d have figured it out.
But you still don’t get it, Mnemsy.
schrodinger's cat
BiP is Oliver Stone.
Bob In Portland
@chopper: No, it’s you trying to make fun of me. It’s also propaganda tactics. Bad jacketing. You don’t have the knowledge or intelligence to make fun of me. Being an ignorant twit and trying to be a bully are contraindicated.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Mnemsy, you’ll never figure it out, but maybe someday someone will tell you.
Bob In Portland
@schrodinger’s cat: I’d be doing better in my retirement if I were. You’re Bill Clinton.
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
i remember watching a really interesting documentary on TV once that showed that both JFK and MLK were killed by this chain-smoking guy who looks just like actor William B. Davis.
real convincing, too. cool theme music.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Bob In Portland:
You mean who other than the KGB?
Oh, but that’s right, other countries never have spy agencies that are notorious for their meddling. It’s all the US, all the time.
And the CIA never, ever makes mistakes. When those US hostages were taken in Iran, the “revolutionaries” were all CIA plants and the entire revolution, including the Ayatollah, was under the command and control of the US. Right, Bob?
Bob In Portland
@BGinCHI: Getting warmer.
Matt McIrvin
@Tractarian:
Aside from whether going in to depose the Taliban was even a good idea, the Taliban were actually harboring al Qaeda. ISIS has rejected making alliances with anybody, because anyone who refuses to accept their “caliph” as the real deal is anathema. That sharply limits their ability to act internationally.
Chris
@chopper:
I love that the CSM was a closet MLK admirer, even if he killed him anyway. Inside the cynical Machiavellian politician and mastermind lie the vestiges of an idealist.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Bob In Portland:
So you finally admit that mistakes exist, but can’t actually name one.
I’ve already named two mistakes that I think happened with the Iraq War. Please name just one (1) action that the US took in Iraq that you think happened because of incompetence and was not part of the overall plan.
mikefromArlington
They’ve attacked France, Denmark, almost pulled more dramatic attacks off in Belgium and a few other European countries. They are threatening Italy specifically. Slaughtering tens of thousands of innocents in Iraq/Syria and moving now into Egypt, Libya. They’ll target Jordan and probably Turkey very soon.
At the very least we need to ramp up the bombing 100 fold, possibly use more targeted raids to take out leadership.
I don’t think standing by and letting them target our European allies and the innocents is really an option at this point.
Bob In Portland
@chopper: You see, chopper, I put a question out there and you refuse to answer it. That makes you an ignorant prick who is an intellectual coward. You essentially write things here to assuage your pathetic ego.
But no, you’re not off the hook. I want to see you keep avoiding the question.
Who benefited from impersonating a nobody six weeks before the nobody was accused of killing JFK? It’s a real simple question. That’s why you can’t answer it, dipshit. (By the way, Mnemsy, that was a mistake.)
You know, you won’t answer the question, but there are supposedly fifty thousand daily readers of BJ and I’m guessing at least a few of them have more logic skills than you. Or Mnemsy. Or the guy obsessed with nipple rings.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Having someone impersonate Oswald in front of the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City six weeks before the JFK assassination. See above.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
When Pee-Wee Herman said this, BiP believed him 100 percent and didn’t understand why the rest of the audience was laughing:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=9hNIX7V21pU
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Bob In Portland:
Why was that not the work of the KGB? I mean, other than your obvious belief that the KGB either didn’t exist or never operated outside of the Soviet Union.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Did you know that Ollie North was on the top secret team that set up the hostage rescue plan? Wrote an article about it for Lies Of Our Times about twenty-three years ago. Mistakes happen all the time, usually involving who to trust. Was Ollie a patriotic Marine during the Carter administration?
Suzanne
I am not super-knowledgable about war and I tend to lean in the direction of agreement with those who say that our involvement in this is unwise.
However.
I cannot help but worry that by staying out, we send the message that brown lives aren’t worth saving. Millions of civilians are suffering and dying, and I also feel it’s morally indefensible to stand by while that happens.
So. That leaves me exactly where I am now: torn.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Thank you for demonstrating your lack of logic. I’m not going to answer your question.
I asked who benefited from having someone impersonate Oswald in front of the Soviet Embassy and the Cuban consulate in Mexico City six weeks before Oswald was alleged to have killed JFK.
This is your theory. Tell me what the Soviet Union and Cuba would have gained from falsely connecting Oswald to themselves. A few thousand megatons of throw-weight on them? And how would they know that Oswald would be accused of killing JFK before the assassination? So they were behind the assassination and wanted to kill him and be linked to him so that they’d face nuclear war?
You amaze me with you brilliance, dear.
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
you seem to be suffering under the idea that i give a fuck about your question.
i don’t. nobody does. because you’re a delusional buffoon.
i do enjoy pointing at you and laughing though. which is what i’m doing right now.
Bob In Portland
@Suzanne: How many brown lives were saved by bombing Libya? How many brown lives were saved in Iraq and Afghanistan?
You don’t save lives by bombing them.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Bob In Portland:
But according to you, the CIA controls all actions in every country, especially revolutions, so they must have been controlling events inside Iran.
I mean, otherwise you would have to admit that other countries sometimes take actions that are beyond the control of the US, and clearly that can’t be true.
Oh, and you and your fellow conspiracy theorists are conflating the US hostages in Iran during the Iranian Revolution and the US hostages in Lebanon that North actually was involved with trying to rescue. Two different situations that happened several years apart but, hey, hostages are hostages, right?
Gravenstone
@Tommy: Asking BiPpy for educational enlightenment is a mug’s game. You’ll learn nothing, and hate yourself for asking.
Bob In Portland
@chopper: No, it’s quite clear you don’t want an answer. That’s what cowards do, avoid.
You’d be quite happy to come here and make snarky remarks about Mitch McConnell or some other such bullshit.
I didn’t force you to comment on what I post. You feel the need to stop dangerous talk that might unsettle your view of the world. That’s your motivation. You already have the answer to the question, but you’d pee in your jodhpurs to actually say it. Gutless little cowards like you do the same routine over and over. That’s why you can’t possibly answer the question.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Bob In Portland:
It’s almost like the Soviet Union would want to have plausible deniability and claim they refused asylum to failed immigrant to the USSR Lee Harvey Oswald and therefore were not responsible for his later actions.
You do remember that part of the story, right? Or is Marina Oswald actually a nice girl from Iowa City that the CIA pretended was from Russia?
chopper
now, what i want to know is, what do the Venusians have to do with this?
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
jesus, it’s like infowars bingo.
Bob In Portland
@Gravenstone: So is this your official policy, to avoid reading opposing views? That’s kinda reactionary.
And really, if you don’t know about the 70-year history of the US’s involvement with Ukrainian fascists you can believe that the answer to all your questions is “Putin is bad man, like Saddam was bad man.”
You, like chopper, are an intellectual coward. Remain in ignorance, fool.
(“A Good Man Is Hard To Find” by Flannery O’Connor)
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
And for the record since I have to head out to lunch: I believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, and that the conspiracies happened afterwards as every US agency involved tried to cover their asses and not have to explain why they let Oswald back into the US and why they didn’t keep an eye on him once he was back. Not to mention the Secret Service agents who didn’t want to explain why they failed to secure the area in the first place.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): So by having someone impersonating Oswald in front of the Soviet Embassy they are throwing the trail off of themselves when they plan to kill JFK in six weeks?
Why, that makes all the sense in the world, Mnemsy. Really, you are a complete idiot.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: So, are you saying you have read Bloodlands?
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Thanks for your recitation. If Oswald acted alone, who was impersonating him six weeks before the assassination? Someone who looks for nonentities to impersonate in foreign countries?
Yes, go to lunch, Mnemsy. If you have a sandwich don’t bite your fingers.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: Snyder, a member of the Council On Foreign Relations? Really? Maybe after I get through all my Kissinger reading.
Matt McIrvin
@mikefromArlington:
Who is “they”? Do you have evidence that those guys were agents of ISIS/ISIL?
My impression was that Charlie Hebdo was an al Qaeda-affiliated bunch. Is bombing the ISIS-controlled areas going to do anything about that?
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): You should read up on Iran-contra. It’s apparently a stretch of history you missed.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: So is this your official policy, to avoid reading opposing views? That’s kinda reactionary.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: Robert Conquest? Really. Now a member of the Hoover Institute. Worked for the Brits’ Information Research Department, which was a group that monitored the Soviets.
And in 1967 he supported America’s war in Vietnam! A brilliant scholar, indeed.
Any other books by Hoover fellows you think I should read?
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: So is this your official policy, to avoid reading opposing views? That’s kinda reactionary.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: You should read up on the Holodomor. It’s apparently a stretch of history you missed.
catclub
@Amir Khalid: Is smoking opium haram? Hashish?
Gravenstone
@Chris: BiPpy is HYDRA?
Gravenstone
@Bob In Portland: You don’t have an “opposing view”, asshole. You have an infinitely nested series of conspiracy theories. It’s turtles all the way down. In case it’s not clear to you, NO ONE takes you seriously. You’re a pinata, an amusement, a joke in human clothing. We point and laugh simply because no one knows where you are to summon real life psychiatric intervention.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
Is anyone surprised that Bob’s account of Oswald’s visit to Mexico City is completely garbled? The issue is not videotape of a guy impersonating Oswald — it’s an audiotape:
pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/biographies/oswald/oswald-the-cia-and-mexico-city/
So, no, Oswald’s visit wasn’t “faked.” He was there. It was the calls to a Soviet spy afterwards that were faked, and those faked calls were the actual object of the cover-up.
But, of course, BiP had to inflate the story and claim it was video, not audio.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Bob In Portland:
Iran-Contra =/= the October Surprise, though they do at least involve the same country. But if Ollie North now claims that he was in on the attempted rescue mission, he’s a lying sack of shit. But of course he said something you desperately wanted to hear, so you’re happy to believe the claims of a known liar and confabulator as long as they fit your preconceived notions.
chopper
@Gravenstone:
i’m surprised alex “bob” jones here hasn’t started accusing the rest of us of being CIA psy-op guys out to ‘conceal the truth’. shit, even mclaren has gone there and he’s not half as delusional as ol’ bob here.
Bill
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
jfkfacts.org/assassination/was-oswald-impersonated-before-jfk-was-killed/
Man is it ever hard to find anything approaching a credible source on this. There’s a ton of tin foil hat stuff out there on whether and why Oswald was impersonated in the fall of 63. The best I’ve been able to cobble together is that government documents unsealed in the 90’s show some evidence Oswald was impersonated in phone calls to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. The actual tapes of the conversation – which did exist at one point – have gone missing so it’s not even clear that it was an impersonator. That said, the evidence of impersonation doesn’t seem awful.
It also seems to be pretty clear that Oswald was actually in Mexico City at that time, trying to get a visa to travel to the USSR with his pregnant wife. (Who was from Odessa) He visited both the Soviet and Cuban Embassies to try to get it.
If he was impersonated, there’s no clear reason why or who did it. Certainly there is nothing to imply the CIA impersonated him. (Which is what I think BIP was trying to imply, but honestly that’s not clear to me either.) If American intelligence did cover up the evidence of impersonation – which again isn’t clear that they did – the most likely explanation is that they didn’t want people to know they had been watching the guy who just assassinated the president, but had failed to stop him.
Holy crap did I wander down the rabbit hole on this one!
Amir Khalid
@catclub:
In the view of most scholarly authorities, yes and yes. All the same, both have been popular in the Muslim world for many centuries.
Bob In Portland
@Citizen_X: We aren’t in disagreement. The Balkans are a place with lots of little ethnic groups that have been fighting forever. The US foreign policy was to break up Yugoslavia, just like we’re breaking up the Middle East. It didn’t just happen. Lots of history.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): So if Oswald was in Mexico City who returned his books to the New Orleans library?
But let’s say he was in Mexico City. Who was the guy who didn’t look like Oswald but who impersonated Oswald? Remember, everyone, google is your friend. “Fake Oswald Mexico City”. The pictures of him will appear in an instant.
There were a lot of fake things regarding Oswald, and he was often seen in two places at once. Let’s not unnecessarily complicate things, because I know you don’t do well with complicated things.
Why is there someone impersonating Oswald in Mexico City six weeks before JFK’s murder? I presume you’ve done us the courtesy of looking at the pictures before you started blathering about something else.
Who is he, and why did he impersonate Oswald? Really simple question and something you refuse to answer. Go to google images and type in “fake Oswald Mexico City”. It’s so simple to do and yet you seem incapable of it. Look at the picture. Is it Oswald? If not, why was someone impersonating Oswald six weeks before the assassination, trying to tie him to the Soviets and the Cubans?
Or just skitter away when the light’s turned on.
Bob In Portland
@Bill: Bill, google “fake Oswald Mexico City.” The first time I saw a picture of him was in the Warren Commission summary published in 1964. You can tell Mnemsy that was another mistake, not destroying the pictures. Yes, they destroyed the audio tapes, but not before J. Edgar Hoover had heard them. In fact, he and LBJ talked about it over the phone around ten a.m. the day after the assassination. You can go here to read the transcript.
So I’ve given you a picture of the mystery man and I’ve given you a link to the actual transcript between LBJ and Hoover about the mystery man. All you have to do is figure out why someone was impersonating Oswald in Mexico City and trying to connect him to the Soviets and Cubans. If it was possible to post the picture of the guy and the picture of the transcripts here I would. Only a couple of clicks away, though.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): When did I claim that there was a video? You lie, Mnemsy. Why are you lying?
There was plenty of film footage of him passing out leaflets in front of the World Trade Center in New Orleans earlier that summer. Not video though. And just about everyone connected with the filming in NO were FBI informants, CIA informants, or intelligence assets. So it seems that the CIA and FBI were pretty aware of him a few months before.
But after the imposter was filmed in Mexico City the FBI took him off of their watch list.
Mnemsy, did you even google the picture?
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Read it and weep, stupid.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Have you googled the pictures yet, asshole? GOOGLE THE PICTURES. “Fake Oswald Mexico City.”
How many fucking times do I have to tell you? If you are not even capable of googling, who ties your shoes? Who wipes the dribble from your chin?
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: I have limited funds. But if you think the Hoover Institute is the best place to go for the real skinny on Eastern Europe, who am I to argue?
The Blog Dahlia
The truth is, Oswald wasn’t actually killed. Jack Ruby had a blank chambered. Oswald was spirited away by the CIA to be part of a medical experiment to create a race of hyper-intelligent ‘supermen’. Oswald went on to get 8 PhDs and played a big part in faking the moon landing. The evidence for all this was being held in a secret CIA office in WTC1, which is why the CIA blew it up.
It’s all here in this pamphlet.
Bob In Portland
@Bill: Bill, do you have a problem using google images? There is no “if”. Someone impersonated him over the phone to the Cuban consulate and Soviet embassy, and somebody showed up there to impersonate him. The CIA recorded voice tapes and took pictures. They destroyed the tapes, but not until after Hoover heard them. And you can see the pictures. Really simple. GOOGLE: “fake Oswald Mexico City”
If you learn nothing else today, learn how to google.
Bob In Portland
@The Blog Dahlia: “Fake Oswald Mexico City.” Google it.
Don’t parade around your ignorance.
Bill
@Bob In Portland:
Mr Miller,
I read the LBJ Hoover transcript which is why I said the evidence of impersonation doesn’t seem awful. It’s not a lock though
As to the photo, the CIA admitted it was mislabeled as Oswald.
nybooks.com/articles/archives/1975/jul/17/the-cias-mystery-man/
“…document, CD 1287, is the memorandum of transmittal from Richard Helms to the Warren Commission which accompanied his affadavit regarding one photograph of the mystery man. The memo refers to the man in the photograph only as “an unidentified individual,” and asks that “this photograph not be reproduced in the Commission’s report, because it would jeopardize a most confidential and productive operation. In addition, it could be embarrassing to the individual involved who as far as this Agency is aware, had no connection with Lee Harvey Oswald or the assassination of President Kennedy.”
The Blog Dahlia
@Bob In Portland:
Oh, I agree fake Oswald was there. What you naive schmucks don’t realize is the truth – it wasn’t just an impersonator, it was in fact a robot clone of Oswald created with technology stolen from the aliens that crashed at Roswell.
Bill
@Bob In Portland:
Take a breath Mr. Miller. I examined your claims, and found the evidence lacking. I even used the Google to do it if that makes you feel better.
Bill
@The Blog Dahlia: You win the thread.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: A used paperback copy of the Conquest book is less than $8 with shipping. Check Amazon. If that’s too much for you, the Portland Community College Library has one. I’m sure you can find a way to access that. Unfortunately, the Multnomah County public library system does not show as having a copy, but I don’t know what inter-library loan policies are there – maybe they can get the PCC copy for you.
But whom are we kidding. You won’t get it or read it because it’s “biased.” But all your RT and TASS sources are God’s own revealed truth.
CarolDuhart2
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): I’ve listened to the Secret Service side of the story: it’s like this: the Agency has been understaffed from the beginning. They had enough to secure the President from known threats. But Lee Harvey Oswald was a matter for the FBI who didn’t share the information they had with the Service. Also, Kennedy refused anything that would separate him from the crowds too much, especially since he needed Texas electoral votes to win re-election. So instead of taking a more direct route to the Luncheon, Kennedy took a route that would make for an open procession. It was his vanity that did him in.
Oswald wasn’t even hired by the Depository until about a couple of weeks or so, and according to Kennedy aides, the decision for the trip was made the previous week, and the route publicized on the 19th of November. When Oswald was hired, the Depository had two buildings: There was another cross-town that he could have been assigned to.
OGLiberal
@Matt McIrvin:Same question I have. As a side note, as much as I love a good JFK conspiracy theory as the next guy (I can discount everything as wacky conjecture…but the Ruby thing still leaves me with an inkling of doubt re: the lone assassin theory), that’s not the topic here. But, yes, where is the evidence that anybody officially linked to ISIL – not just a “fan”, I’m talking folks with operational support and direction, a la Mohammed Atta, Ramzi Yousef, etc and AQ – was involved in terrorist attacks outside of Syria/Iraq? And even within Syria/Iraq? What they’re doing there seems to be winning conventional battles for territory and then practicing their ancient and brutal and sick version of Sharia law on the Muslims there that they view as apostates. Yeah, they’ve done some nasty shiite to a couple of handfuls or so of Westerners/AsiaPacers who were in Syria but that’s to get exposure and attention – and our media willfully complies. But where have they – and not talking about wannabees – any asshole with a bomb, knife, gun, etc, can say they are “with” some group – actually done anything outside of the Levant?
Cervantes
@CarolDuhart2:
How does “vanity” follow from the rest of your explanation?
Cervantes
@Bob In Portland:
Conquest and Snyder are both worth reading. You don’t have to agree with them.
Chris
@OGLiberal:
What you did there.
I see it.
Chris
None of all this, by the way, addresses the fairly relevant question of why the Secret Government would want JFK dead in the first place. The man fed the military-industrial complex plenty of $$$, continued his predecessors’ buildup in Vietnam, gave the CIA a hunting license everywhere from Havana (the attempts on Castro) to Saigon (Diem’s overthrow and replacement), and mooned the Soviet Union at every opportunity from his Berlin speech to his race to the moon challenge. (Which in addition to being a “mine’s bigger” to the Soviets, also brings us back to that “fed the military-industrial complex plenty of $$$” thing). Heck, in 1960 he campaigned on the idea that Eisenhower was a soft-on-communism milquetoast, who’d allowed the development of a “missile gap” favoring the Soviets. His domestic record wasn’t exactly a major break from Eisenhower either.
That entire sub-group of JFK conspiracy theories implies that he was some kind of MLKish radical reformist whose politics forced the powers-that-be to take drastic measures. Problem: JFK’s actual record wasn’t very radical, and the status quo was doing quite well for itself during his presidency.
mclaren
The ignorant self-deluded balloon juice commentariat violently recoils from my repeated statements that IOKIYAD now rules the Democratic party just as IOKIYAR rules the Republican party. Toxic insane policies like the endless unwinnable war on drugs (urged by the beloved Joe Biden) and endless unwinnable foreign wars (perpetuated by Obama at the urging of his gullible infantile “liberal” base) now deform the Democratic party just as badly as toxic insane policies deform the demented Republican party (cut taxes or the rich, slash social services, brutalize minorities and women).
And yet the front-pagers recognize the essential truth of my observation.
So-called “liberals” are now trapped in epistemological closure as helplessly as conservatives. So-called “liberals” now eagerly approve of sociopathic far-right policies like bombing brown babies in third world countries (once more into the breach, dear Iraqis!) as long as the far-right media can supply them with horrifying pictures on CNN to manufacture consent (ooohhh! Jordanian pilot burned alive in a cage!).
The kooks and cranks and crackpots misnamed “liberals” on this forum erupt with wild rage and maddened frenzy when I point this fact out, but it remains a fact. And the front-pagers know it.
mclaren
@balconesfault:
DING DING DING! And we have a winner for “most perceptive comment” of this thread.
The smart geopolitical strategy for America to follow with respect to Islam is: sit back and do nothing. Let the Shiites and Wahabis conduct a duel to the death in their extremist religious leper colony. Then step in, once the two factions have destroyed one another, & offer lots of humanitarian aid…including tons o’ women’s magazines like Redbook and Mademoiselle and Cover Girl and MS and female-empowering movies & cartoons like the movie Frozen and Tangled and Mulan and Kim Possible.
After ten or 20 years of that treatment, there wouldn’t be enough fundamentalist far-right misogynist extremist Islamic jihadis left in the middle east to fit in a taxi cab.
justinb
@Bob In Portland: I have a friend in Ukraine. She can literally look down the street and see Russian tanks