Here’s the latest scandal that has the right wing livid:
UC Irvine’s student council has voted to ban the U.S. flag, and any other nation’s flag, from the the council’s lobby so the area is “as inclusive as possible.”
The ban, narrowly approved Thursday with that language, quickly drew criticism from some students.
The executive cabinet of UCI’s Associated Students on Saturday will consider vetoing the flag prohibition, which prompted the American’s flag’s removal from a lobby wall.
“It’s an iconic and symbolic representation of our values in the U.S.,” said Reza Zomorrodian, the Associated Students’ president who sits on the executive cabinet and opposes the ban.
The student council approved the resolution with a 6-4 vote and two abstentions. Matthew Guevara, the representative who authored the resolution, did not return email messages Friday.
The resolution lists 25 reasons for the ban, mostly relating to how the flag can be interpreted and viewed negatively or positively depending on one’s experiences. The resolution states that the American flag has been flown in times of “colonialism and imperialism” and could symbolize American “exceptionalism and superiority.”
Under the resolution, no flags of any nation can be hung in the office.
Joshua Nguyen, vice president for student services who attended the meeting, said the debate was over freedom of speech vs. inclusivity. Nguyen, as an executive board member, said he intends to vote in favor of the veto.
“The only reason you can take down this flag is because of the liberties given to you by this flag,” said Nguyen, who is keeping the flag in his office for now.
Personally, I think it is a stupid idea to remove the flag, and I would never do so. Then again, I wouldn’t fly a flag indoors unless it was properly displayed. But that isn’t the point and isn’t what the shame of this whole situation is. Not to mention, you don’t have to look much farther than the Edmund Pettus Bridge today to recognize that for a lot of people the American experience hasn’t been what I or other people of privilege and a certain hue have been fortunate enough to have.
The shame of this situation is that these are just idiot kids- yes they are college aged, but they are still just idiot kids, and idiot kids should be allowed to do stupid things as part of the university experience. Misguided activism is alright by me, because hopefully there are adults in the form of faculty around to handle issues and provide guidance.
But that isn’t going to happen here. Right now, I am sure these kids are going to get crucified in the media, their personal info splashed everywhere, and some ignoramuses right now are sending death threats and what not. That’s the real shame. It’s also why I cringe every time someone wants to use what someone wrote in a college newspaper op-ed or their sophomore thesis as ammunition against them in a political campaign. There shouldn’t be a punishment for being an occasional idiot in college. That’s why you are there, after all. To become less of an idiot.
trollhattan
Ooh, I suddenly know the first college choice for graduates of Cottonwood Classical Preparatory School.
The Dangerman
From my neighborhood, Exhibit A. There is video floating around of the “gathering” on the roof in the seconds prior to it happening and a split second afterwards. Idiots.
The thing about this episode is if this party had direct connection to the Greek System (with a name like St. Fratty’s Day, ya think), there may be hell to pay. Cal Poly’s Greeks are on party probation right now (multiple sexual assaults recently at Greek events).
Pogonip
I’m of two minds about this. On the one hand, I’m not a big fan of what one might call frivolous flag flying, where it’s flown every day for no reason. A nation’s flag is special to its people and constantly seeing it deadens the impact. Around here, for example, you can’t go a block without seeing several of them, 24/7/365, it’s as if the flag flyers fear we’ll forget what country we’re in. So in general, I feel less “flagging” is a good thing.
On the other hand, the reasons these kids give for less flagging are really stupid, and I want less stupidity even more than I want less flagging.
Speaking of really stupid, don’t forget to run around your house tonight and change all the clocks that don’t change themselves.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@trollhattan:
So does that mean that, instead of the kids arriving with dates, they’ll arrive as a collective?
(Actually, that’s pretty much what my friends and I did for senior prom — went as a big group. I think there was only one couple included, and of course they had a big ugly fight before the end of the night. Going as a group is the way to do it, IMO — less pressure on everyone and more fun.)
RobertDSC-iPad Mini
That is incredibly lame, even for a university setting.
Pogonip
I meant the twice-a-year ritual is really stupid, not you readers.
Baud
I agree with Cole’s post.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
Sadly, the response by supposedly adult legislators is even stupider:
I seriously doubt the ban will stand, but doesn’t Sacramento have more important things to do, FFS?
Howard Beale IV
Don’t forget that state universities are state funded, therefore they’re soulshulists.
trollhattan
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
Given she’s an OC Republican any accusations of adulthood need to be annotated “supposedly.”
NotMax
Kids need more homework.
jheartney
Any confluence of legality and flags is guaranteed to be an open firehose of stupid.
trollhattan
@NotMax:
Common-Core them until you strike oil!
Villago Delenda Est
Of course, the proper response to the bad choices of the kids is a display of fascistic idiocy on the part of teabagger vermin.
Patricia Kayden
Kids these days!
Ruckus
I am likewise with two sides here. I get where the students are coming from, I agree that too many wave the flag as seemingly their only contribution to their country and that many of them are exclusionary instead of inclusive in their thinking. And yet, it is the symbol of our country, which for all it’s warts is still not a bad place to live. It’s ideals give those who want to ban the display of an overused and abused object the right to discuss it, and ban it. I’m not sure they should be overturned but I am sure that the state legislature is the wrong place to do so at least in such a knee jerk fashion.
kindness
Did they ban Fox News from campus buildings?
sharl
I think The Editrix had the same concern when she responded to Josh Barro:
I have my doubts about the practical feasibility of this, but I understand the sentiment, for the same reasons that motivated JGC’s post.
Comrade Dread
Meh. They’re college kids. College kids always tend to go to extremes. To tell the truth, I’m always of two minds when it comes to displaying patriotism.
At least they’re not holding affirmative action bake sales like an asshole would.
Culture of Truth
This is a bit silly, but those who object should be waving a flag at all times. Looking at you, Fox News.
Villago Delenda Est
Odds are really good that you’ll generate more upset due to the ban.
Perhaps they’re just trolling the wingnuts.
SiubhanDuinne
@Pogonip:
Too late, some of us have already taken offense.
Another_Bob
I’m definitely not a flag-waver. I can understand how the American experience has not been fair to many people. I basically couldn’t care less about proper etiquette regarding flags and other nationalist icons. Sometimes, though rarely, these issues can be important, like recent controversies about the Confederate flag, which has to be seen in this day and age as a defiant symbol of oppression. But still, to make a point of removing an American flag in this situation, when it matters so little in the overall scheme of things, seems like a dumb thing to do. In this case, the shit they’ll receive might be a valuable lesson in the consequences of causing needless trouble over a rather trivial symbolic issue. Maybe next time they can find something important to fuss about that might be worth the trouble.
Roger Moore
@Pogonip:
Except, of course, for the ones you were too lazy to set back in November.
namekarB
So. Children who don’t want to be told what to do regarding the flag make a resolution telling other children what to do regarding a flag. No irony there.
It should be a personal choice. I personally refused to pledge allegiance to the flag for the past 45+ years after the government drafted me and I ended up in an infantry company in Viet Nam. It didn’t take long for me to figure out my life did not matter that much to my government and the people in power only stood for themselves and their friends but not for me. Freedom means don’t tell me I have to pledge allegiance or swear on a bible and I won’t tell you where to stick your flag or which religion is best.
Roger Moore
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
Well, Janet Nguyen is a Republican, so it’s unlikely she’s going to be called on to do any serious work in Sacramento.
Ripley
Only if it advances their careers somehow.
A Humble Lurker
I don’t see why it’s stupid. The symbol isn’t nearly as important as what the thing it stands for does. Lionizing any symbol and not what the thing it stands for does always seemed pretty stupid to me.
I wouldn’t think the flag being there was any big deal, but I don’t see it being band as being any big deal either.
Not-a-Bob-a-Tall
I’ve never said the Pledge of Allegence out loud, since I figured the words out for myself. At first it was just nonsense syllables I nearly said. Then I figured out what I was swearing, and stopped.
I move my lips, but I’m not gonna swear to a god I don’t even know.
Tom the First
I can think of a lot of people who need a lot more college.
Jim Parish
“The only reason you can take down this flag is because of the liberties given to you by this flag,”
The flag did it? Not the people who fought in the Revolution and the Civil War, the people who wrote the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Civil War amendments, the people who marched at Selma – the flag?
Ruckus
@Jim Parish:
I didn’t volunteer for the flag. I did because of the things it is supposed to stand for. OK that and the draft. But I could have just waited to be drafted. I believe in the country and what it supposed to be about, those things that President Obama spoke of today, those things other people were willing to stand up for and possibly die for because they were important. Not for a symbol.
RSA
@Ripley:
LOL. Yeah, there’s a large element of truth in this. Which reminds me… Have I told this story on BJ? I don’t remember.
Last semester I had a student who missed probably every other class, but whenever he came he sat in the front row and would answer questions and get involved in discussions. A nice guy. One day I walked into the classroom and he was sitting there with a knife, flipping it around in his hand.
“Hey, a butterfly knife,” I said.
“Yeah, I got it last weekend,” he said. “I’ve been practicing.” Flip, flip.
“I understand they’re dangerous,” I said.
“Yeah.” He held up his fingers, where he had a few bandaids.
“You know, other students are coming in, and some of them might not be comfortable seeing you with a knife.”
“Oh. I thought they might be interested.” He put it away and I started class.
Running through my mind the whole time was “What are you thinking?!” The course was being recorded for off-campus students, and later the video guy came in and said, “We have all of that recorded. What are you going to do?” I talked with my colleagues and then with someone in student affairs, saying that I didn’t think the student was a danger to anyone, but just to be safe… I was told that if campus police had been around, the student would have been arrested. So then I talked with the student, saying he should get in contact with student affairs to get everything worked out. He was surprised it was any big deal.
I think he will recover.
Seth Owen
I’m with pogonip on this. One. Generally speaking, I am not in favor of bans of symbols on free speech grounds. Yes, I understand that there are legitimate reasons why people may not think much of the US flag. Same thing could be said about any symbol, though. Suppose they ban the Star if David because it might offend Palestinians? How about banning pictures of hamburgers because of PETA?.
jonas
I think nothing speaks to the democratic values and proud heritage represented in our national flag more than the fact that if you choose not to display it, right wing patriots will threaten you with death.
jonas
I can’t wait until some student group in California or somewhere else in the Southwest decides to put up a Mexican flag next to the American flag at official functions. Hey — it’s not a big deal. Just proud of our “heritage”. Ask any of the southern states that still have the stars and bars on their flags.
Cervantes
Clearly not a true statement.
Sherparick
I guess there is two ways of looking at the flag. I have always looked on it as Lincoln’s, FDR’s. and MLK’s flag, not the Neo-Confederates who like to wave it when they are not plotting secession and nullification. The fact is California is is part of the United States and the UIC student council is an officially sanctioned activity on a public University Campus. The flag of the United States and the State of California with both their history of glory, tragedy, and corruption should be present to remind folks of that history.
On slightly different level, this shows the way bubble mentality and group think can form on both the left as well as the right. I really doubt that these six students who thought this was a well meaning, idealistic, action to increase inclusiveness and make a statement about imperialism realized what a shit storm they would bring down on themselves and their campus and have a completely opposite effect then what they intended. In the bubble they had encapsulated themselves, this seem like a reasonable and right decision.
Cervantes
@Sherparick:
Given that the original resolution only passed by six votes to four (with two abstentions), what makes us think the supporters had “encapsulated” themselves in a “bubble”?
Central Planning
I would pass a resolution allowing any flag in addition to the US flag. That way, if people are pissed off about the US flag they can offer their own to be in there.
burnspbesq
If he were still alive and teaching at UCI, I wonder what Derrida would have to say about this.