Whatever you want to call the Clinton email thing, it is unfolding in the worst way possible. She has got to get better advisors, and get them fast.
First, she should have been told using private email for everything was a bad idea and not to do it. But she wasn’t told that or ignored the advice, and we are where we are.
Second, when the issue (or ginned up non-scandal, depending on your take) unfolded, she should have been told to immediately address it and deal with it. She should have been told that times are different and that things like this move at warp speed, not the glacial pace she was used to when her husband was President. But she didn’t.
Third, she should have told the idiot brigade of Begala/Brock/Carville/Davis/Reinnes to STFU and not go on tv dismissing everything and attacking everyone, that it would backfire. The only shithead missing was Chris Lehane. But she didn’t and they went and stirred things up even more
Fourth, after all this, she should have maintained silence until she could address things personally and pull off the scab. But she didn’t, and instead issued a lame and self-serving tweet that threw state under the bus. And while all of this has been unfolding, she’s given the right wing time to chum the waters, pissed off the media, and won no friends at State, who now have to sift through her emails while dealing with, well, the world.
Finally, if she is going to maintain silence, she needs to maintain silence. Instead, there are now leaks from inside her team that she is going to address the issue sometime this week, but they don’t know when or how.
The only person making any sense is the big dog:
Former President Bill Clinton is staying out of the controversy over Hillary Clinton’s use of a personal email address on a private server.
Asked by CNN’s Dan Merica on Sunday in Miami whether his wife has been treated fairly, Clinton said: “I’m not the one to judge that. I have an opinion but I have a bias.”
Clinton’s comments come as other Democrats call on Clinton to answer questions about why she took the unusual approach to email, which had the effect of giving her extraordinary control over what later became public record and what remained private.
Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-California, said that Clinton’s status as the “pre-eminent political figure” in American politics requires her to explain herself.
“She needs to step up and come out and say what the situation is,” Feinstein said on NBC’s “Meet the Press” on Sunday. “From this point on, the silence is going to hurt her.”
Dear Senator Feinstein. Please shut up. These are remarks that should be told to Hillary, and not the bobbleheads.
This is just a total shitshow ala McCain suspending his campaign to head to Washington to fix the economy. Since we have NO ONE else running as her “potential” candidacy has sucked all the oxygen out of the room, this is making me sick to my stomach. She has to win in 2016 because the alternative, regardless who the Republicans puke up, will be awful.
She needs to declare and get some professionals on the job and ditch the cronies who are killing her.
EriktheRed
Nope.
Despite what you say, still not panicking.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I would take Begala out of that group, I haven’t seen him on this, and since he’s usually on CNN I don’t see him often, but of that group I would say he stands out as being smarter and (more importantly) a Democrat first and a Clintonite second. The rest of them … oy. I turned on MSNBC in my car the other day to hear somebody screaming an incoherent defense of HRC at Tamron Hall and obnoxiously talking over the reporter. Imagine my shock when I found out that voice was Lanny Davis.
You’re right, but… My recollection is that DiFi is one of the biggest HRC boosters in the party (as distinct from FOB’s like Rendell). I wonder if she thought this was the only way she could get through the bubble.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
This has been a recurring problem in Clinton political history. But with Supreme Court seats in play, it needs to be addressed right the fuck now.
dnfree
Or the Democratic party could come up with someone else. Preferably someone not in their 60’s or 70’s. Come on, is this the best the Democrats can do? She’s inevitable despite her obvious flaws?
p.a.
Channeling Dennis Green: she is who we thought she is. (Dinner cooking, no time to find the vid)
mtiffany
If Hillary wants to burnish her glibertarian street cred she can always publicly demand that NSA turn over their copies of her emails because jeebus knows they intercepted everything she sent.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
If you can’t answer that question, then you’ve answered your own question.
ETA: and, as bad as this is, this
This is just a total shitshow ala McCain suspending his campaign to head to Washington to fix the economy.
is comparing molehills to mountains
socraticsilence
Can I agree this is almost definitely a non-issue and still be annoyed by the sheer lack of political skills shown, I mean its worrisome given that she might be the nominee at some point right?
But hey I’m sure her Romney like electoral success bodes well, after why run someone who wins races when you can run someone who is inevitable.
NotMax
Know it has been mentioned multiple times before, but there is no ‘e’ in stomach.
Unless you’re channeling Dan Quayle.
Ryan
Have they brought Mark Penn on yet?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@NotMax: Unless you’re channeling Dan Quayle.
Or Samuel Pepys
Warren Terra
My only disagreement is this:
Is there any evidence that any member of this clown cavalcade of political ineptitude gives a rat’s ass what she wants? two decades later, they’re still making their money off of the (possibly mistaken) impression that they deserved credit for anything that happened in 1992 and that they are close to the Clintons. But so far as I know Carville hasn’t worked for them since 1992, and hasn’t been successful in anything other than self promotion in all that time. Lannie Davis is human slime that even the Clintons haven’t been dumb enough to employ since leaving office. A lot of these people make money and keep themselves feeling important by being Clinton Cronies on your teevee at the drop of a hat, without much evidence they’re actually close to Clinton, or care what she wants. I don’t know if she can tell them to STFU – though if she could convince the assholes booking them to instead book her actual spokesthing, that would be an improvement.
beltane
If she didn’t get new advisers after her loss to Obama in 2008, she’s not going to get new advisers now. The “quality” of Hillary’s inner circle is what made me an early O-bot back in 2007.
Hunter Gathers
This is obviously Good News for John McCain.
Germy Shoemangler
@Warren Terra: If she cut them all loose, would they go and write “tell all” books about her?
Does she have a bunch of tigers by the tail?
Luther Siler
This was her exact problem the last time she ran for president, too. Her advisors were all morons. I’d say “glad to see nothing’s changed,” but I’m really, really not glad at all.
trollhattan
Of the two Clintons one is a “natural” politician and one is not. I don’t know what this portends but it’s not going away because there some things that just can’t be acquired.
As to DiFi, I think she’s only had one set of wheels on the tracks for a good while now, yet has four years left in her term. Ugh.
ms_canadada
Dear American Friends & Family,
Please, please, pretty, pretty, please…get your SHIT together.
Thank you,
Your Canadian Cousin
Tiny Tim
23 years of defending the clintons and I’m a bit tired of it. Yes it’s always mostly bullshit, but it’s frequently, if not always, bullshit they should have avoided stepping in. And if we judge people by who they surround themselves with, oy…
different-church-lady
CHEW TOY!
socraticsilence
Shouldn’t someone have won at least 1 competitive election before they run for President?
different-church-lady
@mtiffany: Forget it, I tried that line of humor a few days ago. Everyone took it seriously.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@socraticsilence:
Her senate run against Rick Lazio wasn’t competitive?
dogwood
@socraticsilence:
Like Barack Obama?
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
Also, too, I still think this story is a nothingburger, but it makes me very nervous that she’s relying on the same people who screwed up in 2008 to drag her over the finish line.
Patrick
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_election_in_New_York,_2000
55 to 43 is competitive?
Just Some Fuckhead
They need to get Lanny Davis, Mark Penn and Dick Morris out there in front of this thing.
msdc
Somewhere Howard Wolfson is crying into his beer, alone.
NCSteve
I am soooo having to repress myself to keep from pasting one of those Andrew Sullivan debate meltdown gifs.
Laertes
@Patrick:
Catch-22. If she trounces her opponent, the wide margin of victory shows that it wasn’t a competitive race and she’s untested. If she ekes out a narrow victory, then it shows she’s weak.
askew
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Yeah, Beagla is the only one of the bunch worth keeping around.
I can’t believe that they dusted off Davis and Carville and had them out there picking fights with the media. Not even Democrats want to see their sleazy faces again on our TVs.
And good for Hillary for finally realizing that she needs to address this issue. Bad, that they are leaking that she will hold a press conference sometime this week. Either hold the press conference now or announce the press conference shortly before it begins. It does no good to tease it like this.
As for Feinstein, I’d bet money that she told Hillary this in private and got the brush off from either Hillary or her staff. There is a serious bubble issue around Hillary. Too many old advisors who don’t know how to run a campaign in today’s media environment.
beltane
@Patrick: I lived in NY at the time. The Clintons were immensely popular and Rick Lazio had the whiff of sacrificial lamb about him.
Kropadope
Wow, I mean I don’t like HRC, but I don’t have this kind of fire in my belly.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Patrick:
Barack Obama’s Senate run was the genesis of the term “27 percenters” since Obama won by 70 percent:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_election_in_Illinois,_2004
It’s a silly claim.
beltane
What does Lady Lynne de Rothschild say about all this?
Warren Terra
@ms_canadada:
srsly?
I mean, yeah, our country’s politics is in a pretty dire state – but you’ve got Stephen Flipping Harper in total power. You could make a decent case that, controlling for starting point, Harper is just about the most destructive leader of a Democracy in recent decades, certainly in domestic policy terms (that last of course to exclude consideration of Dubya and Tony’s Mesopotamian Adventure; Dubya was a horror, but had less power over domestic policy than Harper).
Turgidson
Rest easy, everybody. Mark “kind of a dick” Halperin has prognostifornicated that the email scandal has doomed Hillary to defeat.
So, make you inauguration plans for the swearing in of our first ever female president now.
The only way this becomes more of a lock is if Bloody Bill WRONG Kristol chimes in with his own confident prediction of doom for Hillary. Maybe he already has.
Patrick
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Say what? I was simply stating that she won by 55-43 and asking whether that was competitive.
JDM
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: ETA: and, as bad as this is, this
This is just a total shitshow ala McCain suspending his campaign to head to Washington to fix the economy.
is comparing molehills to mountains
There is no comparison. The McCain affair was a desperate attempt to stop both sides of a campaign that he was losing incredibly badly. Whatever one thinks of Clinton’s position and how she’s handling it, she’s not losing badly, or at all, and she’s not begging the other side to quit campaigning like McCain did.
Patrick
@Turgidson:
Why is Halperin still on TV? He doomed himself with that outrageous d**k comment about the President of the United States.
beltane
@Turgidson: Bill Kristol is too busy drumming up war with Iran to have time to make bogus predictions regarding Hillary.
JPL
@Just Some Fuckhead: Dick Morris was one of the few fired by Clinton. It didn’t look good that he was entertaining hookers during the convention.
max
She needs to declare and get some professionals on the job and ditch the cronies who are killing her.
That was sensible.
This is just a total shitshow ala McCain suspending his campaign to head to Washington to fix the economy.
Yeah. How’d that work out, anyways? Peels of laughter I got off that one.
Since we have NO ONE else running as her “potential” candidacy has sucked all the oxygen out of the room, this is making me sick to my stomach
Dude. If you haven’t spent the last 15-20 years sick to your stomach, you weren’t paying close enough attention. Or believing a lot of dumb shit, either or both.
Besides, if you’re sick to your stomach all the time, you eat less, and then – you lose weight!
Were you always this jittery in combat, or were you like high or something?
max
[‘Maybe it was just bein’ in a big hunk of metal. I know! You could build a bunker in the backyard and post from there! A pitbull proof bunker!’]
Betty Cracker
@Turgidson: I think Kristol predicted she’d win in 2016, so we’re going to experience a Wrongness Paradox that will rip the universe apart. Been nice knowin’ ya!
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Patrick:
Was 70-27 competitive?
That’s why I find it silly to claim that Hillary’s 55-43 win shows that she’s never won a competitive election. There are plenty of other things to worry about when it comes to her campaigning without reinventing history.
Pogonip
@Kropadope: Or in your stomache.
Turgidson
@Patrick:
As friend of Balloon Juice driftglass so often reminds us, there is a club, and we’re not in it. Halperin is. And amazingly, he’s not even the biggest fucking clown in the club (though he’s in the running).
Turgidson
@Betty Cracker:
Oh my. I guess we’ll have to go to Dick “Romney Landslide” Morris for a tie-breaker, and/or hope that Bill WRONG Kristol changes his mind.
Kropadope
@Turgidson:
That’s depressing. More than half of all people are women and she’s the first to claim that job? Uggh. The first female Speaker of the House impressed me more than the first 20 years of HRC. Pelosi has actual policy accomplishments to her name.
hilts
“Or the Democratic party could come up with someone else. Preferably someone not in their 60’s or 70’s.”
The best thing that could come out of this situation would be for Hillary to decide it’s time for her to step aside and leave it to others to seek the Democratic nomination. I don’t expect her to choose this option, but I’d like her to prove me wrong.
Just Some Fuckhead
I’m worried about Corner Stone. She might be hurting herself over this.
askew
@msdc:
Don’t worry Debbie W-S has brought him into the DNC fold to help with planning the 2016 primaries. That should work well.
I’m not sure who I am more worried about Hillary or Debbie W-S in the 2016 election. Both of them are tone deaf, charisma free and have management issues.
Patrick
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
My last response to this. It was posting #21 that brought this up. I was simply stating what the margin was and asking whether it was competitive.
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
When Bill Clinton is the voice of reason you’ve got problems.
White Trash Liberal
Green Balloons.
Turn off the TV and quit feeding into this non-scandal. There is no smoking gun. Just innuendo and implication. The media will circle and feed on this no matter what the approach, so might as well send the whores in to mingle with the thieves.
It’s Chinatown.
Sifu Snafu
@max: Out of morbid curiosity, what is this in reference to?
[‘Maybe it was just bein’ in a big hunk of metal. I know! You could build a bunker in the backyard and post from there! A pitbull proof bunker!’]
gene108
So Clinton should be the sole arbiter to decide what e-mails should be sent out to the media, i.e. those that may contain classified information or may need some info redacted?
I think it is appropriate for the State Department to vet her e-mails before sending them out to the media.
I just do not understand the problem with wanting another set of eyes to look over documents that may contain information that is classified, before releasing it to the public.
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
I often wonder how Obama would be viewed, if the office of Special Prosecutor had not been scrapped, when Bush, Jr. took office.
How would his image of “no drama Obama” fair, with someone like Ken Starr having a few tens of millions of dollars to dig through anything and everything he has done past and present.
I think Ken Starr created a gag reflex with the Clintons, in terms of people considering them being fishy, corrupt, dodgy, etc.
There was very little Clinton did or anyone did in his Administration that rose to the level of actual Presidential corruption and abuse of the power of the Presidency or the Executive Branch.
But there’s a whole level of “why did the Clintons not turn over ‘x,y.z’ ” documents Ken Starr was hunting for…”they must have something to hide”…that seems to be a conditioned reflex in people now…
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Patrick:
I guess socraticsilence needs to answer the question, since s/he made the initial claim. I would say any margin of victory under 60% is “competitive,” but I’m not applying hindsight.
docg
Gov. Huckabee said the Clintons are like the Godfather. Keep talking like that and you will wake up with Donald Trump in bed with you . . . oh, wait, that’;s a horse’s ass, not a horse’s head.
dnfree
I try to hold to the standard that if it’s wrong for Republicans to do something, it’s also wrong for Democrats to do it. Wrong is wrong. I’m not giving Hillary a pass on running a private email system when she’s holding a public office. She of all people should understand the importance of archiving documents for historical reasons. Or actually I think she did understand that and that’s why she ran her own system.
Kped
TBogg and Digby have this one so much more right than John. He is chasing his tail, going nuts over…talking heads. I mean…get a grip man. This is beltway BS that isn’t resonating with anyone but you and the DC circle jerk press.
Starfish
@dnfree: The ageist nonsense arguments need to stop. Bob Dole was too old to be running against Bill Clinton in 1996 and is still alive almost 20 years later. Dick Cheney has a robot heart and is still alive. What we have learned from this is that
Republicans drink the blood of innocents to achieve immortalityrich people live a long time, and women generally live longer than men.Patrick
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Not sure. I kind of think the entire subject is moot. Hillary had a tight race in the 2008 primaries. While she lost, it gave her the experience needed to handle it in a potential 2016 race. At least one would hope so.
The Dangerman
@dnfree:
Pretty much this.
She had best have a phenomenal, Checkers-level, speech in her on this matter or she’s done.
Cervantes
No comparison.
kindness
I don’t really care about it. Yea I should but I don’t. That the MSM & Republicans go nuts….well duh. That is what they do. That is all they do. And I don’t care even then.
I figure that in a year and a half when it’s getting to be election time things will matter. This won’t be one of those things.
opel801
I recall saying something similar to this in 2007.
dogwood
I don’t think this will be an issue for the next 18 months. The press doesn’t stay interested in something like this for an extended period of time. They hounded Mitt Romney for about a month over his refusal to release his taxes, and then got bored with it. If I recall correctly, there weren’t any questions about it in any of the general election debates and I don’t recall the President bringing it up in those forums. On the other hand, Clinton never released her tax returns either during the 2008 primaries. If she refuses to release them again, then she could face the same fate as Mitt. It’s not one thing that sinks you, but a never ending string of this shit that pulls you down.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@Tiny Tim:
@Luther Siler:
This is pretty much why I don’t want her as the nominee in 2016, or the president. The first fucking thing any competent politician (or administrator, really) needs to do is gather the best people they can get. Both Clintons seem to be bad at this. Bill Clinton made out all right in spite of this, although, damn, he (and those around him) made it needlessly hard most of the time, because he had a personality that won people over, and that goes a long way, and can make up for a lot of shortcomings otherwise.
But I just don’t see Hillary Clinton as having that kind of personality. I’m sure she’s a great person, and she commands incredible loyalty among those she knows well, but I can’t see that she can woo the country the way Bill Clinton can. She’s going to need to depend on her competence and judgement of people to get her through. And while she might be competent, everything she’s managed to do so far seem to be in spite of those around her, rather than because of them. And that might get you through when you’re a senator or a cabinet secretary,and fewer people are watching her every hour of every day, but it’s going to a lot tougher when she’s the nominee for president.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I think Cole grossly overstates the importance of this, and I really am not a Hillary hater, but I do find myself thinking that this makes the “3 a.m. phone call” ad looks even sillier in retrospect. “I’m a fighter who’s been fighting for thiry-five years….”, but you can’t expect me to hold press conference or give an interview to address people’s concerns….
And it is worrisome that it’s taking them this long to prep her for the rumored press event later in the week
piratedan
sounds like the typical hair on fire reaction that we’ve come to expect. She hasn’t even announced yet we’re busy ripping away the foundation, taking the first broadside as fact. My understanding is that the application and passage of the law that she was supposed to have violated came after her term of SOS ended, true? If not, my apologies. If she screwed up while in office by not availing herself of the government website in order to do her business, then that shows bad judgement but it’s certainly not General P. or Mark Sanford or picking Sarah Palin levels of bad judgement. Then again, we Dems do have a tendency to ask for competence in our pols and we get pissy when they don’t deliver. To be fair, I’m not sure we’re likely to see a candidate of Obama’s measure in quite some time, damn high bar for anyone else to clear imho.
ms_canadada
@Warren Terra: You’re speaking to the choir! Harper has been a disaster for Canada. He’s always been a GWB wannabe. IOW a Bastard Person.
I am actively working against the CONS in Canada. (Did you know ALEC is operating here?)
America is the ‘greatest country in the world,’ and we share the longest undefended border in the world. Many of my forefathers were Dutch/British/Irish settlers to America. Some fought on the American side in the War of Independence. Others were UEL (United Empire Loyalists) who fled or were transported to Canada. We are all Americans. We are all human beings.
The world needs a strong America, with a fair, smart, strong leader. We all benefit from that.
(Too bad BHO can’t run again!)
mike with a mic
The biggest problem with the Clintons is the sense of “fuck you I do what I want” that surrounds everything they are involved in.
Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should do something. Most of the “little people” or “real American’s” are aware of those lines. Unless you’re a complete sociopath or somewhere on the DSM scale you tend to avoid skating right up to the line of illegality, flagrantly violating the spirit of the rules while staying within your own twisted legalize, or even engaging in activities that have a hint of impropriety. Part of that is not being an asshole, the other part is a self awareness of how it would look to people around you.
The Clintons seem to engage in that sort of jackassery at every possible chance. It doesn’t even matter if it’s counter productive, they are going to do it and then loudly stamp their feet and scream and yell when people call them out on it.
After a certain point it’s just not worth defending. It becomes a “sure it was legal, but what the fuck is wrong with you, do you spend your life looking for land mines to jump up and down on just because you can?” issue, or a “do you seek out bears to poke with sticks and what drives you to do this” issue. It’s the same level of WTF as “just because you can open carry does not mean you should do it at the shopping mall food court”.
It feels like the press and the Clintons are addicted to drama.
Omnes Omnibus
Jesus Christ in a push-up bra and hooker boots, another post on this? It is a Rorschach test and that is all. And, FWIW, I see meh.
John Cole +0
@Just Some Fuckhead: Had no idea corner stone was a she. Thought she was a guy from Texas with aggression issues.
kc
I’m just not feeling the outrage.
Perhaps years of Republicans thumbing their noses at open records laws has made me indifferent.
Sorry.
Violet
Yep. And despite the fact that they’re crazy, the Republicans have multiple people who are planning to run (or so it seems) and a lot of them are in their 40’s or 50’s. Jeb may end up their candidate, but they’ll have a primary and show they’ve got a bench. Crazy wacko bench, but one nonetheless. Plus their eventual candidate will get some kind of workout in the primary debates and elections.
A lot of politics isn’t just policy. It’s dumb stuff like personality, “who do you want to have a beer with” and a general feel for “this person is like me” or “this person has my best interests/the country’s best interests at heart.” Hillary’s age alone is enough to make people somewhat nervous and to separate her experience from a lot of the country. Add to that her bubble and refusing to address an issue that pretty much anyone who uses email for work understands they’d get shitcanned for if they did the same thing and you’ve got a real divide.
This may blow over or it may be the front end of other poorly managed bubbliciousness. We’ll see.
dnfree
@Starfish: Hey, I’m close to 70 myself. If Hillary and Joe Biden are the best alternatives Democrats have to offer, that’s not saying much. They’re shopworn and their best years are behind them, while their deficiencies are all too well known. The same was true of Bob Dole and is certainly true of Dick Cheney, never mind that they are still alive.
different-church-lady
@Omnes Omnibus: You can keep the count along with me. This is #5 in what I’m sure will be a very long running series.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Patrick:
I think we pretty much agree. On paper, Hillary is actually more qualified as a candidate than Obama was in 2008, but IMO Obama also showed that your resume is not as important as your character and judgment. So to me, it’s silly to get bogged down in side issues about previous elections when they’re really beside the point.
John Cole +0
@gene108: It was self-serving because the tweet made it sound like state was the one holding things up, when they would have dealt with this stuff years ago if she had given it to them then.
kc
Okay, now I don’t Hillary, but why the fuckity fuck is she the only Democrat who appears to be thinking seriously about running?
Seriously, why?
ETA: Don’t give me any crap about her potential candidacy “sucking the air out of the room,” either.
kc
Listen, this is bullshit. If the other prospective contenders are so wimpy they’re waiting to see what Hillary will do before they declare, they don’t deserve to be in contention anyway.
kc
@different-church-lady:
He’s gonna need to post a shitload of Steve pics to make up for this.
jnfr
I thought Carville was great today against Andrea Mitchell, who has been after this bit of ratfking with the breathless thrill in her voice that all the Villagers get when they catch a whiff of fake Clinton scandal. Carville was scornful of the whole thing, and she was shocked, shocked! It was delicious.
Lanny Davis, on the other hand, is annoying and I want him to go away. He always sounds whiny.
As for Clinton, I’m in the not-panicking camp, at least until I see who her official staffers are, once she has some.
trollhattan
O/T Florida Man gets rid of climate change by telling employees to never use the words “climate change.” Genius, really.
SatanicPanic
Oh god make it stop. I’m going back to DKos where people are sensible if all this Hillary hand-wringing continues.
GREEN BALLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONS!
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@kc:
Well, Sanders is thinking about it. So is Jim Webb. At this point, I’m rooting for Sanders.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Wrong. This was the core lie behind the Hillary candidacy in 2008 and proof that the Clinton’s have that Republican teflon (can lie about anything and not worry about the consequences).
While Hillary was in the public view much longer than Obama at that point, she had no real accomplishments during her tenure. Obama accomplished more from the IL statehouse than Hillary has ever. Unless breaking Iraq and bankrupting the US counts as an accomplishment.
SatanicPanic
@kc: looks like you answered your own question there
FlipYrWhig
Yes, the fact that a 60-something woman wanted to use an email system she was already familiar with IS a serious political scandal.
Incidentally, my mom is that age and still uses an AOL account that my sister, now 35, created in high school.
msdc
@kc: Because every single poll shows her trouncing any possible primary opponents by about 50 points, and nobody wants to spend two years eating Iowa state fair corn dogs and pretending to like New Hampshirites just to get their clock cleaned.
I believe that’s what they mean by “sucking all the air out of the room.”
Iowa Old Lady
OT, but the Iranian Minister of Foreign Affairs has posted a response to the R Senators letter. It’s lovely.
http://en.mfa.ir/index.aspx?siteid=3&fkeyid=&siteid=3&fkeyid=&siteid=3&pageid=1997&newsview=330948
FlipYrWhig
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): Sanders, who in a piece of _good_ press is referred to at first mention as “the dour Vermont socialist”? Shyeah, lotsa luck with that one.
askew
@hilts:
Wouldn’t that be nice.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@kc:
I still suspect that Hillary herself has not made up her mind whether or not she’s going to run. She had a couple of health scares right at the end of her term as SoS that might have made her think hard about whether she’s healthy enough to take on the campaign and the presidency. She knows better than most people how draining it is to be the president.
If that’s the case, I think everyone else is holding back until she makes up her mind so they can get her endorsement if she doesn’t run. Having the Clintons campaign for him in the general election helped Obama in both 2008 and 2012, and everyone else is probably hoping to get the same boost. That would require not pissing them off by declaring before she does.
Just a notion, may not play out that way. But I suspect that’s what the calculation is.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’m hoping this gets some attention, don’t know if the Press Club allows its events to be broadcast. Nothing on their website yet
“Slick Willy” was coined by a Little Rock columnist in the ’80s
askew
@dogwood:
Yep. And it is stories that reinforce negative impressions voters already have of you. That’s why the 47% video hurt Romney so bad. People already thought he was an elitist, but that video was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Rasmussen had a poll out today (yes, I know they suck) that showed people were much more concerned about conflicts of interest with the Clinton Foundation than the emails. 49% view Hillary’s private email usage as a National Security concern and 57% are somewhat concerned about conflicts of interest. That’s surprising since the email stories are getting so much more traction.
JPL
@Iowa Old Lady: The NY Times has an article. I doubt they will post my comment but I said that Republicans often question the President’s love of America. It’s time for them to look in a mirror.
beltane
John Cole wasn’t a Democrat in the pre-Obama days. He is unfamiliar with the unmitigated agony of it all.
I think the Clintons enjoy these types of go-nowhere scandals. It forces the party faithful to rally round them, too distracted by the commotion to notice whatever Repubican-lite policy du jour is being promoted right under their eyes.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Kropadope:
Obama was a half-term US Senator who had not been in national politics until 2 years before. Hillary had not only been elected to her US senate seat, but re-elected.
Like it or not, Hillary’s resume was better. You seem to have missed my overall point that resumes don’t mean shit.
kc
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
I’d vote for Sanders in a primary, though I realize he wouldn’t have a chance.
beltane
@askew: Let us pray that the lawsuits in the Jeffrey Epstein scandal go nowhere because there is allegedly some involvement with the Clinton Foundation.
kc
I guess Hill should have done like Lindsey Graham and just not used email at all. Ever.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@askew: 1) how was the question framed: “are you concerned about conflicts of interest…?”
2) what percentage of those respondents believed last October that you could get ebola from a doorknob?
answered my own question by following the link
Nah, not leading at all.
jnfr
@Iowa Old Lady:
I thought it was great. Very clear and to the point, with just a whiff of ‘fuck off’ behind it.
beltane
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): If resumes mattered, Joe Biden would have easily won the 2008 nomination. His resume was far more substantial than either Clinton or Obama’s.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Maybe we have different ideas about what constitutes the resume of a public official. Holding office vs. accomplishments
Mandalay
@gene108:
That’s a strawman – nobody is demanding that the emails be released with being reviewed first. The issue is that the Dept of State are having to review them now because she didn’t hand them over until she was busted.
askew
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I think the idea of Sanders running is a bit silly since he isn’t even a Democrat and he is even older than Hillary but I am glad this is getting some press attention.
O’Malley got a standing ovation 2 weekends ago in SC and he is really pushing the income inequality, immigration, and regulation of Wall Street hard in his stump. He impressed some people in NH this last weekend and got sneered at by the media. We’ll see if it goes anywhere.
askew
@beltane:
Yeah, I was reading about Epstein in relation to Prince Edward. There are a lot of well-connected men who are caught up in the Epstein mess. I can’t see these lawsuits going anywhere though unless one of the underage escorts has some real evidence. The whole mess is sleazy though,
Turgidson
@Iowa Old Lady:
The only quibble I have with his letter is that he said the US backing out of the agreement in the future would be a violation of international law, as if the GOP gives a flying fuck in hell about that. To shitheads like Tom Cotton, violating international law, particularly when pushing an agenda of war, is a feature, not a bug.
You’d hope that Bibi and the GOP asshats in Congress would take note of the fact that Iran’s foreign minister has sounded far more reasonable and measured in his public comments of late than any of them do, and that the contrast makes them look like complete fucking lunatics. But of course they won’t engage in any such reflection, because come on let’s get this war started already!
Ripley
The shoe, it fits.
Betty Cracker
@Iowa Old Lady: Wow! Well-played, Iranians! (And fuck the GOP sideways for making the goddamn mullahs look like the voice of reason!)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@beltane: if resumes mattered, the greatest presidents in our history would be Buchanan, Nixon and Poppy Bush
there was that one guy who was a one term congressman and failed Senate candidate
HRA
I cannot believe that some people fail to understand why using private email with your own private server at home in a high profile government job is extremely dangerous and not at all wise.
askew
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Like I said in my original post, it’s Rasmussen and they suck. However, I still found it interesting because I thought Bill’s popularity and charity work would insulate Hillary from any fallout regarding the Foundation and it is getting much less attention than her email mess.
I’d like to see a legitimate poll on this in a couple of weeks. If Hillary is a top-tier candidate that her supporters claim she is, she’ll put this whole email mess behind her at the press conference.
different-church-lady
@askew: I love how you just put “sneers at almost half the country for struggling financially” in the same category as “used the wrong e-mail server”.
hilts
@askew:
As someone who has Clinton fatigue, it would be a lot better than nice. It would be fucking awesome.
One benefit of Hillary not running would be the sheer joy of seeing Chris Matthews’ head explode.
@kc:
Money is the mother’s milk of politics and if Hillary runs, any other Democrat would have a huge problem raising enough money to mount a credible campaign against her.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@beltane:
Exactly. It’s the difference between who looks best on paper and who’s actually the best candidate.
FlipYrWhig
@askew:
Harkin ’92! He’s electrifying Iowa!
askew
@different-church-lady:
I said they both reinforced negative opinions about the candidates and that is what these stories do. Hillary’s negatives have always been she’s secretive and she lies. It’s come up over and over again in her career. Every candidate has negatives but when stories come out that reinforce those negatives, it is that much harder to shake.
FlipYrWhig
@different-church-lady: askew would put “uses the wrong spoon for grapefruit” in the same category as “sneers at almost half the country for struggling financially” as long as Hillary was the one guilty of the former.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@askew: I don’t think Sanders or anyone else has any illusions about the success of his candidacy, but from what little the NPC has about his speech, he talked about income inequality and climate change. He wants to keep those issues front and center, and so do I, also, this
askew
@FlipYrWhig:
Well that really isn’t a fair comparison since Harkin was an Iowa native. But, I do think that O’Malley has about a 1:1000 shot of winning the nomination if Hillary runs. But, I would have given Obama a 1:100 shot in 2007. 2007 Obama was rough on the stump and wasn’t great in the debates. He didn’t improve until late summer of 2007 at the JJ dinner in Iowa.
RaflW
She needs to announce this week that she has decided to lead the Clinton Global Initiative and therefor will not seek and would not accept the Dem nomination.
There is time – just barely – to get a competent campaigner to run for Prez. She is going to crap this up like she did ’08, so she should just get outta the way, dammit.
SatanicPanic
@different-church-lady: anything Hillary does is terrible and sign that we should elect Scott Walker
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): It would be awesome if she announced a presser and then used it to endorse Gillibrand 2016. Seems unlikely, though.
Bobby Thomson
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Lazio sucked, but not as hard as Alan Keyes.
Violet
@HRA:
It’s not just that. It’s also that anyone who uses email for work knows that if they used their personal email for all their work email requirements they’d be fired. That’s how it works in the real world. It’s not complicated. It’s part of what makes this issue so easy for the average person to understand. Who the hell uses their personal email for work?
askew
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
That’s odd as Weigel who is following the primary said he asked Sanders and O’Malley directly about it and they both declined to comment.
My only concern is that progressives will rally around Sanders who won’t get more than 2% of the vote and ignore other candidates who have been talking about income inequality and climate change. If those are his concerns, back Webb or O’Malley who are actual Democrats.
FlipYrWhig
@askew: If she doesn’t run, it’s not going to have anything to do with her email domain name, which matters to nobody who didn’t already have a problem with her.
Bobby Thomson
@Patrick: again, it’s more competitive than Keyes’ 27 percent that inspired John Rogers’ post on the crazification factor.
opel801
@kc:
Because it doesn’t matter. There aren’t enough angry white guys to elect Rand Paul or Ted Cruz.
All she has to do is run.
Iowa Old Lady
@opel801: From your mouth to god’s ear.
FlipYrWhig
@Violet:
I think you overestimate what the average person considers an issue. My wife, who is wildly pro-Obama and has been since ’08, and fairly seriously anti-Hillary since at least then too, was watching Lawrence O’Donnell badger/berate people over this and had no idea what the hell he was talking about, why it was important, or for what reason he’d have a split screen with like 4 experts all blathering on about… something.
Emma
@Iowa Old Lady: Good golly. Talk about taking someone to the woodshed.
Mandalay
This. I can understand why some think this whole issue is a nothingburger. And I understand why Clinton initially said nothing in the hope that it would blow away – fair enough. But it didn’t, and now I really don’t understand the ongoing tolerance for Clinton’s reaction to the issue.
Even if you think she did nothing wrong, her handling of the brouhaha has been fuckawful. She’s off giving speeches and ignoring what’s going on, and tweeting that she wants to State Dept to release her emails, as though it’s not her problem. Meanwhile the State Dept and the Administration are getting grilled by the media, and still she says nothing. She can’t be endearing herself to the Administration right now.
Maybe the whole shebang is giving her pause.
Betty Cracker
@HRA: I thought the early accusation that the server was at her house was debunked? It turned out that the domain was registered at her house but it was a cloud server? I’ll admit I haven’t followed it all that closely. I’m in the wait and see camp.
But I am leery of “that’s not how it works in the real world” arguments. As with the budget issue, there’s not always a direct correlation between how the government works and how businesses operate.
Just Some Fuckhead
@jnfr: Thank God Carville is there when you need something rednecksplained. Did he call this whole brouhaha a carolina mudfish??
Corner Stone
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I didn’t want to ruin the argument that everyone here really wanted to be having.
.
.
Oh, darn it.
JPL
@Emma: The repubs should be taken to the woodshed. They don’t love America and they don’t understand that the President dictates foreign policy. They didn’t address the letter to the other countries involved, so they are ignorant.
Hillary might have used a private email account and it might be a big f.king deal, but I don’t know that.
What the repubs are doing is a big fucking deal.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Corner Stone:
Ha! Those were the days..
johnnybuck
Fuck all this chicken little bullshit.
Betty Cracker
@FlipYrWhig: Add my fire-baggy husband to your small batch, artisanal data set. He rolls his eyes at the yapping head freak-out too.
Corner Stone
@Betty Cracker:
It has been, repeatedly. Only Cole, The Bezos Daily and dumb fucks here still repeat that specific nonsense.
johnnybuck
@FlipYrWhig: Shit, dsame as it ever was
Kropadope
@johnnybuck: The sky’s only falling if she’s elected.
gf120581
@FlipYrWhig: It’s basically de ja vu to the 90s, when the GOP and the Beltway media was yakking on about the Clinton scandals as the biggest things in the world and the rest of the country just shrugged their shoulders and said, “We don’t care.”
It was the 90s where I first became aware of how much the Beltway media dwells in a bubble. Often they don’t know the first thing about what’s important to average people. Mark “Good News for John McCain” Halperin is the archtype of their breed.
Corner Stone
Cole. You are a god damned moron.
The Dangerman
@opel801:
I don’t think that’s accurate; sure, HRC will win the blue states in massive landslides, but I suspect the swing states, even without any whiff of a scandal, will be very close (they always are, by defnition). Is this enough of a scandal to flip one or more swing states? I think so.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Looks to me like HRC is neck-and-neck with Obama in favorability, and way ahead of GOPers. The most popular national figure is Bubba hissownself, so go figure
Corner Stone
I hope she never says a fucking thing about her email. Never. Does that work for you?
eemom
I think a lot of y’all are missing Cole’s point here, which is that the e-mail shitshow is emblematic of the clunky tone-deaf incompetence that was a hallmark of Hillary’s campaign in 2008, and will continue to be in 2016 if she leaves the same buffoons in charge.
And that rightfully should scare the shit out of us all.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Betty Cracker:
There’s also often a difference between how it works for the corporate drones and how it works for the corporate executives (and I mean the CEO types, not necessarily the Junior Vice President for Toenail Clipper Sales (Mideast Division)). What a career State Dept. employee has to do is not necessarily what the ambassadors or Secretary of State has to do.
MomSense
O/T The Pete Souza photos from Selma 50 are extraordinary.
https://medium.com/@WhiteHouse/behind-the-lens-selma-50-years-later-68bf9a3a70
WaterGirl
@Iowa Old Lady: Do we think President Obama crafted that letter and Iran signed it? The republicans have outdone themselves.
SatanicPanic
@gf120581: This. She used the wrong email! sounds about as compelling as that Whitewater thing the Republicans were trying to push. I still don’t know what that one was supposed to be about.
Corner Stone
Who could say this and then look in the mirror and not flat out fucking break down laughing? This is Jackass levels of self-stupidity.
Corner Stone
@eemom:
Cole’s point here is that he has completely re-bought in to the anti-HRC narrative. Complete with no semblance of substance there!
And we should all be scared that Republicans will decide to not vote for her!
The Moar You Know
You’re doing the same thing everyone else is. Stop piling on.
RaflW
@mike with a mic:
Certainly one of the reasons I do not look forward to her running.
Mandalay
@FlipYrWhig:
I don’t like what Clinton has done, but O’Donnell is completely deranged on the issue. There must have been some incident in the past with Clinton on a personal level to have caused him to be spewing bile now. The man is making himself look very small, not for his disapproval, but for the manner in which he is showing it. What a jackass.
Corner Stone
@EriktheRed:
But you must! You simply fucking must burn your bathrobes and your piss soaked slippers and run to the Hills!
SiubhanDuinne
@Iowa Old Lady:
That was a thing of beauty. Do you suppose we could get him to come to DC and address a joint session of Congress on the subject?
Just Some Fuckhead
I’m worried Darrell Issa might start manufacturing scandals if HRC is elected.
Cacti
@Corner Stone:
Cole still argles and bargles over Hill and Bill like he did in the 1990s as a Newt Gingrich/Ken Starr supporter.
chopper
this whole email thing isn’t much of an issue.
that being said, the way her campaign is dealing with it makes me worry a bit given that fact that it isn’t much of an issue and they’re still kinda fucking it up.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@SatanicPanic:
IIRC, Whitewater was about a con man trying to cut a better deal with prosecutors by claiming the Clintons were in on the con rather than being victims of it. That’s not what the national press touted it as, but that’s what it boiled down to.
JPL
@Just Some Fuckhead: haha.. The repubs might have to write more letters.
WaterGirl
@Kropadope: YES YES YES
opel801
@Corner Stone:
You seem to be upset.
JPL
good news according to the ny times
A state judge will take over municipal court cases in Ferguson, Mo., the Missouri Supreme Court announced Monday evening. The change comes days after the federal Department of Justice sharply criticized municipal courts in the St. Louis suburb for acting largely as a fund-raising operation that disproportionately fined and jailed black people.
Corner Stone
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I just don’t think I can take the rightwing yelling at me that I’m un-American and there’s some there, there.
Where can I go to sign up for someone we can work with, someone we know where they stand?
Bobby Thomson
@kc: this. Any Democrat afraid of Clinton isn’t someone I want running.
dnfree
@FlipYrWhig: “Use an email system she was already familiar with…..” Her domain was set up on January 13, 2009. And she’s old, she should get a pass on learning her job requirements? Even if your mom is still using AOL, if she became Secretary of State, do you think she could master a different email system?
And it does matter to people who didn’t formerly have a problem with her. People like me, for instance, who think that anyone in that position should recognize the importance of documenting emails, regardless of party. You’re like Clinton’s advisers in making excuses for her instead of recognizing the problem.
Baud
Don’t these guys now work for the TV?
Corner Stone
@opel801: You seem to be stupid.
Bobby Thomson
@SatanicPanic: ouch. Just . . . . Ouch.
opel801
@Corner Stone:
Why would they do that?
WaterGirl
@MomSense: The president and John Lewis hugging made me cry.
Allan
Feinstein knows perfectly well how to reach Team Clinton. The only reason for going to the bobbleheads is that Team Clinton blew her off.
Corner Stone
@opel801: Welcome to politics in America, friend.
Cacti
I guess our only solution is to nominate a candidate about whom the GOP wouldn’t dare gin up controversy.
Iowa Old Lady
@Just Some Fuckhead: This made me LOL
MomSense
@WaterGirl:
The smile on Amelia Boynton’s face got me.
opel801
@Corner Stone:
I don’t think you’re un-American. Confused maybe, but not un-American.
Corner Stone
@opel801: You and Ron Fournier, amigo.
tybee
thank god. i thought it was some sort of insecure device she was using.
Cacti
@dnfree:
Who said she didn’t document e-mails?
And where did the 55,000 pages of e-mail records she turned over come from?
Kropadope
@Cacti:
WaterGirl
@tybee: With “the cloud” being all the rage, I wonder if everyone here will see that as sarcasm or snark.
Kropadope
@Cacti:
How do we verify this was all the relevant emails?
@tybee:
Hehehe
RaflW
@Turgidson: Bibi and the GOP know full well that 98.5%+ of Americans won’t just not read the Iranian foreign ministers letter, but that they won’t hear it exists. Because our press sucks balls.
(And by that I of course mean ping pong balls. Or beach balls. Or something wholesome)
JPL
@Cacti: This is the most important story evah!
The repubs openly revolting is nothing cuz they don’t believe in political correctness.
Corner Stone
So hilarious that, “grabs his balls, nails on a chalkboard” Tweety is having three right wing hacks on to talk about HRC’s email Götterdämmerung.
Cacti
@Kropadope: @Kropadope:
In attempting to move the goalposts, are you conceding that the original assertion was incorrect?
And your answer is, ask the State Department Archivist.
The State Department doesn’t turn official records over to NARA until they’re 25 years old.
opel801
@Corner Stone:
>Ron Fournier
Good lord. Are you really a girl?
I know you’re in Houston.
different-church-lady
@WaterGirl: Considering the track record, I have my doubts.
Gene108
@John Cole +0:
My understanding is she handed over the e-mails to comply with a 2014 rule that was passed after she left office.
She did not do anything wrong.
You want to know why Democrats are cock-sucking pussies, with no backbone? This is why.
When a prominent Democrat does nothing wrong, but there are allegations against her for being the worst monster ever to hold office, instead of defending their own, erstwhile Democrats look to tear apart their own because reasons (I just do not fathom).
Republicans actually break the fucking law and Republicans rally around in support, circle the wagons and dig in to defend one of their own from attacks lodged by fags, atheists, communists, feminazi’s, the PC police, etc. They will not let those they feel are enemies of a civilized society take one of theirs down.
If Democratic supporters had half that kind of resolve, you could probably get a steadier Democratic Party that clearly stood for something.
Edit: My bad she was complying with a State Department request:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/03/us/politics/hillary-clintons-use-of-private-email-at-state-department-raises-flags.html?_r=0
Kropadope
@Cacti: I don’t recall setting goalposts, just pointing out that HRC is a fool. Over and over.
Mandalay
@tybee:
You win the thread!
Cacti
@JPL:
Given the complete lack of laws being broken or evidence of the same, I’m just not sure what I’m supposed to be scandalized about.
The letter to Iran, OTOH, treads dangerously close to a Logan Act violation by almost half of the Senate.
Kropadope
@Gene108:
This is why the Ds are supposed to be better. You want the Ds to stop being better? Elect Hillary.*
ETA: *Oh and defend her no matter the merits. Hear no evil. See no evil. Speak no evil.
EriktheRed
@Corner Stone: I’m gonna go make a hot chocolate instead.
Corner Stone
@opel801:
You say that like it’s a bad thing. And how do you know I’m really anywhere?
Corner Stone
@EriktheRed: Splitter!
Corner Stone
@Gene108: Damn, Cole. How did you manage to radicalize Gene108?
Crouchback
@kc: Money, mostly. You need to raise several hundred million dollars to make a run for the White House these days. It’s going to be hard for any other Democrat to do that against the Clintons. And if you try and fail you’ve made an enemy of the Clintons. The Democratic bench would look a lot better if Clinton wasn’t running.
Corner Stone
@Kropadope:
You’ve already said here that electing a Republican is better than electing HRC.
So…
opel801
@Corner Stone:
Not at all.
That would be telling.
another Holocene human
@EriktheRed: Seconded. Continuing to not give a flip.
Corner Stone
@Crouchback:
Who would you push forward if HRC stroked out tonight? IOW, what is your D bench?
Kropadope
@Corner Stone: She’s a unique case. All rules have exceptions.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Corner Stone: he’s got to pack em all in so he can get to star-fucking Kevin Spacey. That one’s almost worth watching just for the incoherent, star-fucking, cinephile-wannabe babbling it will produce, along with several moments when it becomes clear that Tweety thinks House of Cards is a documentary. and the (at least) one moment when Tweety will fault Obama for not being more like Spacey’s fictional character
Cacti
@Kropadope:
No, the previous poster was the one who set them. You’re the one trying to move them.
Corner Stone
@opel801: It’s ok, Stalkie. Or whatever your name is…”It’s Stalkie.”
EriktheRed
@Corner Stone: Wanna join me? We can enjoy not burning our bathrobes together.
different-church-lady
Wait… did somebody say hot chocolate?
Gene108
@eemom:
You know why Obama got the 2008 nomination?
He was caught on video, in 2002, opposing the Iraq War. Period.
That’s what pushed him over the top.
Policy wise he and Hillary were carbon copies of each other, though Hillary was actually in favor of gay marriage, unlike Obama who thought civil unions were good enough.
She also wanted to try and enact gun control laws, unlike Obama who did not want a damn thing to do with gun control until Sandyhook.
In short, Hillary was to the Left of Obama in 2008, but still lost.
Corner Stone
@EriktheRed: I’m enjoying thinking about the offer. But I’m pretty much commando. Never understood the bathrobe/furry/bronie subculture.
But enjoy the hot chocolate!
EriktheRed
@different-church-lady: With marshmallows, no less!
opel801
@Corner Stone:
If you have nothing to hide… etc.
Full disclosure works both ways.
Tree With Water
@Gene108: I don’t believe anyone who supported the Bush-Cheney war can or should be considered to the left of anyone else in the democratic party. It was, after all, a defining moment for all involved.
Kropadope
@Gene108: Where she is on the spectrum of Democratic politicians is irrelevant to me. She lies, like more than the average pol. She lies like Romney. She feeds the conventional MSM narrative, which is mainly lies. She has no accomplishments to speak of. All this and her supporters turn a blind eye. It’s exactly everything wrong with the Republicans, save for the policy positions.
Crouchback
@Corner Stone: You might want to check out this post mortem of the Clinton campaign from 2008. The worrisome problem is that her campaign was so badly run and she didn’t get things under control. Clinton in 2008 was in an endgame position at the start of the campaign – Obama could not have won if Clinton hadn’t made so many mistakes. So it’s disturbing that she doesn’t seem to have learned from the experience. It’s especially disturbing when she’s our only alternative. If she hasn’t improved since 2008, the Republicans are likely to win in 2016.
Corner Stone
@opel801:
Thanks, Ari Fleischer.
Corner Stone
@Crouchback: Yep, just like all the stories in The Atlantic fluffing Harper Reed.
Thanks for the link.
eemom
@Gene108:
Got some cites that those were Hillz’ positions in 2008? Not saying they weren’t, just not what I recall.
Anyway, I very much disagree with that simplistic assertion of “why Obama got the nomination.” Two more rather major reasons are (1) Obama is a naturally talented and charismatic speaker, and (2) again to the point of the post, he ran a better campaign.
opel801
@Corner Stone:
What color are your eyes?
Crouchback
@Corner Stone: Elizabeth Warren or O’Malley are possibilities. There are other Democratic governors and Senators who could run if the race opened up. Remember, Bill Clinton was a relative unknown in 1991, and Scott Walker would be if there was an incumbent Republican running for re-election. Hillary Clinton just has been underwhelming as a politician. One semi-competitive victory in 2000, against a second tier opponent in a state where Gore got over 60% of the vote and Nader another 3.6%. One landslide against a warm body. And then a train wreck in 2008 where her campaign burned through money and couldn’t even keep track of how delegates were awarded. Toss in that she’s been isolated from anything like normal life since 1992 and I’m really worried about 2016. I’ll vote for her – but the email snafu feels a little too much like the first step in a slow motion train wreck.
Gene108
@Tree With Water:
Hillary did not want to increase US involvement in Afghanistan. Obama said he’d use the newly freed up draw down from Iraq to put more troops into Afghanistan.
So how did that make Obama less belligerent than Hillary, in 2008?
Sure in October 2002, Hillary supported the AUMF, but by 2008 she was not the one calling for bigger combat operations anywhere.
Also, you validate my point that the Iraq was and still is a sticking point for Democratic voters.
msdc
@Kropadope:
And it’s not like those matter, right?
Especially to someone who’s already said he’d rather elect a Republican.
Crouchback
@Corner Stone: Sorry, what? The article’s from 2008. Check the date on it. Harper Reed didn’t work for Obama until 2011. Obama’s done some impressive things but violating causality is a bit out of his league.
Corner Stone
@opel801: Awk-Ward…
Go creep on some one else.
opel801
@Crouchback:
.
No, they aren’t. That’s bullshit and you know it.
Gene108
@Kropadope:
No accomplishments?
You think the U.S. reputation abroad was all sunshine and unicorn farts, after eight years of Bush & Co?
She rebuilt US credibility abroad after eight years of the worst Presidency in modern history.
Kropadope
@msdc: Your right they do matter. Electing a Democrat as president who has proven clinically incapable of advancing any major policy, who lies and deceives as easily as she breathes, who is more interested in those policies to advance herself than advance the policies will set us back decades.
Hillary Clinton will accomplish nothing save taking a big dump on our priorities.
opel801
@Corner Stone:
That’s not the point. Name one thing genuine about yourself and I’ll accept you as anything but a troll.
Kropadope
@Gene108: I’m sure other administration officials deserve some credit. Oh, hey, can you tell me something she actually did at state to improve our national stature?
I’m driving home from work now. You got like an hour to work on it.
Corner Stone
@Crouchback: The Harper Reed remark touches on the after action report of the Obama 2012 campaign. And it was complete bullshit. That is how it is relevant.
Your other comments are stupid.
Corner Stone
@opel801: This gets creepier each time.
Tree With Water
@Gene108: “A sticking point”?
Yeah, OK. I guess that’s one way to put it.
Sifu Snafu
@Gene108: Cock-sucking pussies?
dnfree
@Cacti: How many didn’t she turn over? And she claimed that she thought her emails would be preserved because of the people they were sent to having .gov addresses. How was that going to preserve emails she sent to anyone in a foreign country?
Archiving is archiving, not “what Hillary wants to archive”.
Crouchback
@Corner Stone: When did I mention the 2012 campaign? The Atlantic piece was about Clinton’s 2008 campaign and was written in 2008. The whole point was that Clinton’s defeat was more self inflicted than due to Obama. What 2012 after action report are you referring to?
Gene108
@Corner Stone:
Not radical, but I think the Clintons get a lot of unfair criticsm for the Left because they were more pro-business than pro-labor during the 1990’s, which overlooks stuff like having buffer zones established around abortion clinics, so the Fundies could not harass and intimidate people all the way to the door step of the clinic or passing the Brady Bill, which is still with us today, or passing FMLA or actually trying to get the U.S. on board with the rest of the international community to combat global warming or expanding medical coverage for the poor via sCHIP.
The reality is there ain’t that much difference, policy wise, between Obama and either Clinton.
I just wish people would acknowledge that fact.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
and, above and beyond her vote for the AUMF and her stupidly stubborn refusal to admit it was a mistake, and her sneering, contemptuous dismissal of Obama’s opposition as “just a speech.. in 20002”, there was her decision, as Senator with a national platform, to spend the worst years of this country’s history sitting quietly in her seat with her hands folded in her lap so that Vice Principal Broder, Sister Mary Cokie and Monsignor Russert would give her the Good Conduct Medal for 2008. All that “fighter” rhetoric was so offensive to me in 2008. As I said at the time, if she had brought half the anger and energy to bear against Bush as she did against Obama, we might well have a very different country today.
opel801
@Corner Stone:
You’re a drunk commenter, with a history of drunk commenting. You should really look back on your history here and sober up.
Also — your goddess will no doubt be elected emperor. Be thankful for that,
kc
@Corner Stone:
Are you really a chick? No prob if you are . . I can do a girl crush too.
/stalker
Corner Stone
@opel801: Wow. I have to say that this isn’t fucking creepy at all.
Corner Stone
@Crouchback: This is too boring to continue any further.
dogwood
@Kropadope:
“Hillary Clinton will accomplish nothing. . . ”
Let’s just be realistic here. There will be little difference in 2016 if we elect Clinton, Warren, O’Malley or Bernie Sanders for that matter. Nothing even remotely progressive is going to get by the crazy republicans who will still control Congress. It’s important to put a Democrat in the White House to make judicial appointments, keep many of Obama’s executive orders in tact and to veto the shit republicans will send to the OvalOffice. Single payer, immigration reform , a fair tax code? These aren’t gonna happen with a Congress that will still be obstructing.
EriktheRed
@dogwood: I think it’s safe to predict that if the Dems can successfully hold on to the WH in 2016, they’re likely going to take back the Senate, too.
IOW, the Repubs wouldn’t even be controlling all of Congress.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@EriktheRed: what seats do you think will flip? I know the numbers were supposed to favor Dems but then ISIS started filming Repubilcan campaign commercials and the Rs did better than expected last year– I think Colorado and Nr Carolina can both be chalked up to ISIS/ebola panic, and it didn’t help in Iowa. From what I’ve seen (and remember, Illinois, Wisconsin, maybe Florida, maybe New Hampshire are flippable, and we’d have to run them all to get to a tie.
opel801
@Corner Stone:
You’re not interesting. Your window for being interesting died 15 years ago.
I still like you.
dogwood
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I agree. The Republicans are defending a lot of Senate seats in 2016, and we will probably pick up a few, but not enough to take back the Senate. The House is gone for the foreseeable future. The next census coincides with a presidential election, but if we win in 2016, 2020 might be a tough year for Dems.
Corner Stone
@opel801: Ergo you keep saying rando shit to me…
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@dogwood: I looked it up, and Dem possibilities, with a strong top of the ticket, PA and OH, even NC might be in reach. Ted Strickland has won statewide office before, and Rob Porter has lots of cash and no personality. Scratch that, he has the personality of Eeyore on lithium.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Ron Johnson is high on my list of targets.
OGLiberal
Both have their faults but Bill is a much better retail pol than Hillary. He could blow off BS like this. Hillary seems less deft at deflection. And too loyal to Hillaryland. She doesn’t throw folks under the bus (even when she should) nor can she use charisma to distract, like Bill. Why a family so used to scrutiny and controversy would continue to make unforced errors boggles me. There are m any reasons I like Obama outside of personality and charisma but the no drama factor – and it’s very real – plays a big role.
Corner Stone
@OGLiberal:
And by that you mean cowering in the corner hugging her knees and begging to not get hit again, one presumes.
Please to explain how this was pre-saged or what the better obviously known course was.
Hint: There wasn’t one.
opel801
@Corner Stone:
Are you a girl?
This is your last chance to be interesting.
Socraticsilence
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
I guess I kind of considered the Lazio thing a shoe in given that New York’s last Republican Senator to serve a full term left office was succeeded by Robert Kennedy. While posting I realized the Obama counter example but I guess the 2008 primary kind of put those concerns about him to rest for me whereas it exacerbated them with her.
The general sense of resigned acceptance to HRC’s run from the mid-level political organizers I work with is a bit concerning.
Corner Stone
@opel801: Unlike you, who obviously has a multitude of chances to creep us all right the fuck out.
mk3872
It is very likely that the only way for Mrs. Clinton to use modern tools like web browsers and blackberries for email, she needed to use her own email, not the antiquated systems @ State Dept.
That, and the fact that she was probably protecting herself from Republican overreach into her gov’t email account, is why she was using something other than the official State Dept email servers.
These are the same reasons, I’m sure that Jeb Bush and Scott Walker ALSO used personal non-govt email addresses. But that doesn’t result in end-of-the-world daily news stories, blogger head explosions and SNL skits, because they’re Republicans, I guess.
rikyrah
@askew:
You mean accepting monies from FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS might bother people?
who knew? [/tongue in cheek]
opel801
@Corner Stone:
You’re not interesting anymore. All that’s left is hate.
It’s a shame really.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: It’s nice to see that you have found a friend or something.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: What’s sad is that compared to Little Boots they are even fucking creepier.
And, heck, that’s saying something.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: Gosh.
opel801
@Corner Stone:
I honestly have no idea who you are. Except that being a paranoid moron is apparently a life choice for you.
You should really stop posting in public.
different-church-lady
@dnfree:
And how many did she think about writing but never wrote?!? WE DEMAND TRANSPARENCY!!!
Omnes Omnibus
@different-church-lady: I find it interesting how many comments the trash Hillary post got as compared to the pro-O’Malley post. Does it say something about something? Who knows? “‘What is truth?’ said jesting Pilate, and would not stay for an answer.”
Corner Stone
@opel801:
That is completely not creepy, or anything.
MBunge
@Corner Stone: And by that you mean cowering in the corner hugging her knees and begging to not get hit again, one presumes.
I know a lot of people realize it, but this is the problem with the Clintonistas.
They don’t love the Clintons for policy or ideology. Bill was even more of a moderate Republican than Obama with a list of things like DOMA, rendition and “the era of big government is over” to give any liberal pause.
And they don’t love the Clintons out of partisanship because Bill Clinton was an A-1 disaster for the Democratic Party. Democrats were still the majority party at just about every level of government when Clinton came in, and he left with the Democrats a minority party in their worst shape in two generations.
They love the Clintons because Bill managed to beat the GOP in one of the stupidest dick-measuring contests in American political history, and now they pretty much view the Clintons and all of politics through the prism of that one sad and ridiculous “victory”.
Mike
Corner Stone
@MBunge:
Where is the Democratic party in Congress now, leading to the end of Obama’s second term?
I get you’re not bright enough to make much of a coherent argument, but you may at least think about not starting with a premise that torpedoes your stupid fucking premise.
Corner Stone
@MBunge:
I personally disagreed mightily, in real time, with several outcomes in the Bill Clinton presidency. But, hey, you know what? I’d take another two terms of a Democratic presidency right now, no matter what their name.
Society has significantly moved on a number of items, so a D prez is, or could be, poised to make a number of significant moves forward in the near future.
It’s not 1992 any longer, Mike.
Omnes Omnibus
@MBunge: Bill Clinton was elected at a time when liberalism was in retreat. He fought rearguard actions and did a decent job of it. When Obama was elected many of us thought the pendulum was starting swing the other way, but it hasn’t moved as much as one would have hoped. Nevertheless, both had significant accomplishments that liberals should prize.
Just Some Fuckhead
You girls with the fussin’. My god.
MBunge
@Corner Stone:
Thanks for demonstrating what I mean. I point out something negative about the Clintons’ time in power, something so undeniable even you can’t contest it, and the response is to blame someone else for not fixing the problem. You could have responded that the Clintons merely accelerated a political realignment that was already underway and was probably inevitable.
But if you did that, you couldn’t turn this into a dick-measuring contest and pretend you won it.
Mike
MBunge
@Corner Stone: It’s not 1992 any longer, Mike.
Then why are you angrily manning the Clinton-barricades like it was still 1998?
Mike
socraticsilence
@Omnes Omnibus:
I don’t know looking from the point of view of today its really hard see what Bill Clinton achieved in his presidency that will in the long term be seen as a major achievement on par with the ACA, maybe some revisionist history will lead to a re-evaluation but as things currently stand Clinton looks like one of those second half of the 19th century presidencies that all seem to blend together. I mean the economy was great, there was some revision in tax policy in 1994 but on the whole it was a tactics presidency with tons of smart short term maneuvers for political gain but no real lasting legacy.
Omnes Omnibus
@socraticsilence: DADT was a step forward at the time. How about VAWA? ’93 tax increase? Top of my head….
ETA: Playing defense has a role as well.
Corner Stone
@MBunge: No, thank you. Mike.
This is stupid fucking revisionist attempts to say where we are now is equal to where we were then.
Maybe you remember the R’s putting gay rights’ votes on ballots in OH and other states in just as recent as 2004?
No, you probably don’t get that. Mainly because you’re an idiot.
PropH8, anyone?
It is an absolute fool’s errand to try and say something about the US in the 90’s as compared to here.
And saying something about an ascendant D party? Check yourself, fool.
askew
@socraticsilence:
Which is pretty much what Obama said in 2008 that made Bill lose his shit in South Carolina. Reagan was a transfomative pres. Evil, but transformative. Obama is a transformative president. Bill really didn’t build much of a lasting legacy and I think he knows it. Obama’s already eliminated a lot of his mistakes and improved on his achievements.
Omnes Omnibus
@askew: May I ask a personal question? How old are you? *
*It does inform one’s views.
askew
@Omnes Omnibus:
Old enough to campaign for Bill Clinton in 1992 though I only supported him because of Gore. Always thought he was smarmy.
Omnes Omnibus
@askew: Okay, then you are old enough that you should know the difference between an D and any R. I noted earlier that the comment ratio between the Hillary and the O’Malley posts was interesting. I noticed that you don’t show up in the O’Malley thread as much as you do in the anti-HRC threads. It does make me wonder. It makes me wonder.
Omnes Omnibus
@askew: Wait!!!!!! You supported Clinton because of Gore? Oh dear. Oh, dearie, dear….
askew
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yes, I know the difference. The only R I’ve ever voted for was Scott Klug in 1992 because the D running against him was a complete nutjob. Criticizing Hillary doesn’t mean that I support the GOP. Hillary supporters have never been able to handle criticism about her without starting in on the loyalty pledges.
As for O’Malley, I just posted like 5 comments in the O’Malley thread and I’ve posted in every O’Malley thread here plus touted him for months now on this blog and got sneered at by Anne Laurie for doing so repeatedly.
I also posted I believe the only pro-O’Malley diaries at DK.
But, honestly there isn’t much to say right now about him besides he is likely running, he has the strongest list of progressive accomplishments of any Democrat likely running and is electable. There is no news to report with him because he is giving stump speeches and meeting activists in the early states. When he was giving his statements on the child refugee crisis, I posted about him all the time here. But, he isn’t making news right now. What is there to say?
Hillary is unfortunately making news right now for all the wrong reasons. So, it is relevant talking about her. And besides, bitching about how much Hillary sucks is a huge stress reliever for me and I could really use that right now.
askew
@Omnes Omnibus:
I know! It’s awful. I didn’t fall for the smarm of Bill but actually liked Gore because he was saying something worth talking about. Bill just bit his lip and told us he felt our pain. I have no patience with fake politicians like that.
Omnes Omnibus
@askew: You may want to rethink your language. You are coming off here as a crank. Just saying.
askew
@Omnes Omnibus:
You’ve attacked me before for not supporting Hillary and mocked me for supporting O’Malley. Basically because I disagree with you I am either mockable or a troll. Same BS that Anne Laurie and Corner Stone have been doing as well. Since this one of the only places you can actually criticize Hillary on the left, I am going to stick around until AL bans me. You are more than welcome to put me in the pie filter. Lord knows I’ve heard enough about loyalty from Hillary supporters to last a lifetime.
AxelFoley
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Hold up. Corner Stone’s a she? I always though that assmunch was a he.
Fuck, that just throws shit all outta whack.
AxelFoley
@gene108:
You said this same shit the other day. Oh please believe, if there was ANYTHING to get on Barack Obama, it would have came out by now. Just because the Clintons are messy and stay mired in scandal doesn’t mean everyone else does.
And the first black President of the United States KNEW he had to have all his i’s dotted and t’s crossed. The first black person to do anything in this country knows that (see, Robinson, Jackie)
AxelFoley
@John Cole +0:
Glad I’m not the only one who thought this.
Betty Cracker
@askew: You once falsely accused me of trying to “bully” you into supporting Hillary. I suspect you’re full of crap about Omnes “attacking” you for failing to support Hillary as well.
He’s right that you come off as a crank on the topic of HRC. I don’t really give a shit — crank away! But I wanted to note that it’s not holding a different view that makes you come off as a crank; it’s your relentlessness and delusional perceptions about the views of others that is crankish.