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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Afternoon Open Thread: Actual Nuclear Rogue States

Afternoon Open Thread: Actual Nuclear Rogue States

by Zandar|  March 11, 20151:28 pm| 127 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

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Oh Vladimir, you virile hunk of apparatchik, you.

Russia has the right to deploy nuclear arms in the Black Sea peninsula of Crimea, which Moscow annexed from Ukraine last year, a Foreign Ministry official said on Wednesday, adding he knew of no plans to do so.

“I don’t know if there are nuclear weapons there now. I don’t know about any plans, but in principle Russia can do it,” said Mikhail Ulyanov, the head of the ministry’s department on arms control, was quoted as saying by Interfax news agency.

This will end well.

Open thread.

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Reader Interactions

127Comments

  1. 1.

    beltane

    March 11, 2015 at 1:32 pm

    Maybe the Senate Republicans can write Putin a letter. Knowing them, it will have lots of XOXOs at the end.

  2. 2.

    Amir Khalid

    March 11, 2015 at 1:32 pm

    Why doesn’t Bob in Portland come by any more to defend such statements as these from the unfair and mean criticisms of NATO apologists?

  3. 3.

    Roger Moore

    March 11, 2015 at 1:39 pm

    @beltane:

    Knowing them, it will have lots of XOXOs at the end.

    Better that than naked selfies.

  4. 4.

    Waldo

    March 11, 2015 at 1:40 pm

    When in doubt, wave your nukes around. Russia should change its name to Northern North Korea.

  5. 5.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    March 11, 2015 at 1:46 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    He does seem to have vanished right around the time that Putin’s main political adversary was assassinated, doesn’t he?

  6. 6.

    Roger Moore

    March 11, 2015 at 1:46 pm

    @Waldo:

    When in doubt, wave your nukes around.

    Putin’s just upset because his advisers have told him to limit his photos to topless shots. He really wants to show off his “nuclear missile”, even if it is only a short range tactical job.

  7. 7.

    srv

    March 11, 2015 at 1:47 pm

    Now here’s something y’all can get behind:

    A lawmaker back in Tom Cotton’s home state of Arkansas who wants to make sure the freshman Republican senator can run for reelection and the presidency at the same time in 2020 has introduced a bill that would allow House and Senate candidates to also appear on the ballot for president or vice president.

  8. 8.

    boatboy_srq

    March 11, 2015 at 1:47 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    Better that than naked selfies.

    They’ll be in the House version.

  9. 9.

    Snarki, child of Loki

    March 11, 2015 at 1:48 pm

    Ukraine should get busy looking for any nukes that were accidentally left behind when they split from the USSR and denuclearized.

    If they find any, they should be immediately returned to Moscow.

  10. 10.

    MattF

    March 11, 2015 at 1:51 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): Obviously done by Nazi Islamic terrrrrists. Who have the odd habit of committing suicide while in custody. Who could have guessed?

  11. 11.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 11, 2015 at 1:53 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): It is rather amazing how Gospodin Romanov seems to have evaporated right about that time, and is no longer bestowing on us recycled crap from Russia Today.

    Could it be that he has, deep down, a sense of shame for being the lackey of this guy whose principle domestic opponent so conveniently found himself in a hailstorm of bullets?

  12. 12.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 1:56 pm

    Some excellent comments, reminiscent of the nuanced & insightful statements made by supporters of the Iraq invasion back in 2003. Probably just coincidentally, the day before Ulyanov’s statement Biden (that would be VP Joe Biden, not R. Hunter Biden, member of the board of directors of Ukraine’s largest private gas producer) announced the delivery of military aid to Ukraine, including drones and armored Humvees — but the two things probably aren’t related.

  13. 13.

    beltane

    March 11, 2015 at 1:58 pm

    It’s just a name change, folks, not an absence.

  14. 14.

    Davis X. Machina

    March 11, 2015 at 2:07 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: He’s on a cheap kulak-liquidating package tour someplace. He’ll be back.

  15. 15.

    Davis X. Machina

    March 11, 2015 at 2:08 pm

    @beltane: No man is faster than pie.

  16. 16.

    Roger Moore

    March 11, 2015 at 2:09 pm

    @Davis X. Machina:

    He’ll be back.

    Presumably after the Kremlin has a story on Nemtsov’s murder that comes closer to passing the laugh test.

  17. 17.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 2:11 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Where do you get your recycled crap?

  18. 18.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 2:16 pm

    @Roger Moore: Speaking of laugh tests, denying that the US is responsible for fomenting unrest in Venezuela, State Department comedienne Jen Psaki recently said “(A)s a matter of long-standing policy, the United States does not support political transitions by nonconstitutional means. Political transitions must be democratic, constitutional, peaceful and legal.”

  19. 19.

    Roger Moore

    March 11, 2015 at 2:16 pm

    @BobS:

    Where do you get your recycled crap?

    Why, are you looking for a new dealer?

  20. 20.

    Iowa Old Lady

    March 11, 2015 at 2:21 pm

    I’m still not done ranting about the Rs’ letter to Iran. Their excuse now seems to be that the President didn’t consult with them enough, so they had no choice. First, I wouldn’t consult with them either because there’s no way they’d keep their mouths shut. Someone would run to the nearest microphone. And second, to me they sound like the a violent criminal saying, “Now look what you made me do.”

  21. 21.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 2:21 pm

    @Roger Moore: No, I swore off Fox News a long time ago.

  22. 22.

    Violet

    March 11, 2015 at 2:23 pm

    @Roger Moore: Recycled crap? That’s awesome compost!

  23. 23.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 11, 2015 at 2:25 pm

    @Violet: Bob excels at providing it.

  24. 24.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 11, 2015 at 2:25 pm

    @BobS: Yes, but the Russian version of Faux Noise holds you in thrall.

  25. 25.

    Mike E

    March 11, 2015 at 2:28 pm

    @BobS: B.S.!

  26. 26.

    Violet

    March 11, 2015 at 2:28 pm

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    to me they sound like the a violent criminal saying, “Now look what you made me do.”

    That sounds like an abuser. Beats up wife, blames her for what she “made him do.” That kind of thing.

    Republicans being abusers pretty much fit my impression of them.

  27. 27.

    MattF

    March 11, 2015 at 2:30 pm

    @BobS: Ah, thanks for the clarification. On the one hand, it sounded kinda like a threat- but on the other hand, one doesn’t expect national arms control officials to brandish nuclear weapons. Good to be clear about that.

  28. 28.

    Mike E

    March 11, 2015 at 2:30 pm

    @Violet: Yeah, but you wouldn’t want any of that around your tomato plants.

  29. 29.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 2:31 pm

    @Mike E: 5th Grade!

  30. 30.

    Violet

    March 11, 2015 at 2:31 pm

    @Mike E: Gotta be composted down. Can’t apply directly. It burns and kills things.

  31. 31.

    Cacti

    March 11, 2015 at 2:31 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    Why doesn’t Bob in Portland come by any more to defend such statements as these from the unfair and mean criticisms of NATO apologists?

    I’m surprised he hasn’t checked in to blame the murder of Boris Nemtsov on Victoria Nuland.

    Must be getting his new bullet points from RIA Novosti.

  32. 32.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 2:37 pm

    @MattF: Actually I don’t expect the head of the foreign ministry’s department of arms control to be brandishing nuclear weapons, but that you do would explain the pants wetting over his rhetoric.

  33. 33.

    MattF

    March 11, 2015 at 2:39 pm

    @BobS: I read what you wrote. Did you?

  34. 34.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 2:41 pm

    @MattF: No, would you explain it to me please?

  35. 35.

    MattF

    March 11, 2015 at 2:43 pm

    @BobS: Bye.

  36. 36.

    Mike E

    March 11, 2015 at 2:43 pm

    @BobS: whoops… I meant:
    B.$.!

  37. 37.

    Cervantes

    March 11, 2015 at 2:45 pm

    This will end well.

    What rules govern a Russian decision to deploy nuclear weapons in Crimea?

  38. 38.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 2:49 pm

    @Cervantes: According to MattF a foreign ministry official decides, however I think he might be wrong.

  39. 39.

    Tommy

    March 11, 2015 at 2:49 pm

    @Cervantes: I’d think that is a very, very complex question. Clearly we have a number of nuclear-related treaties with Russia. Also many with the former Soviet states, which of course Ukraine is one. In fact I am willing to bet there isn’t even a specific response to your question, which of course is troubling.

  40. 40.

    Mike E

    March 11, 2015 at 2:55 pm

    @Violet: I was referring to Barney Ruble’s weapons grade shit…your compost sounds good!

  41. 41.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    March 11, 2015 at 2:59 pm

    @beltane:

    IIRC, there are two separate Russian apologists named Bob — this is the second, less well-known one.

  42. 42.

    Violet

    March 11, 2015 at 2:59 pm

    @Mike E: Yeah, some poop is too dangerous to put in the compost bin. Loaded with toxins.

  43. 43.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 11, 2015 at 2:59 pm

    @Cervantes: How about the “don’t give people another fucking thing to be anxious about” rule?

    I mean, really, let’s just pour some more gasoline onto the fire and see what happens!

  44. 44.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 3:03 pm

    @Cervantes: Well, there almost certainly were nuclear weapons there prior to 1994, when Ukraine signed the Budapest Memorandum, which assured Ukraine’s territorial integrity in exchange for its relinquishing nuclear weapons. But it seems that one of the Budapest Memorandum’s signatories does not believe it is binding any longer.

    Russia has also withdrawn from the treaty on conventional forces in Europe, effective today, I believe.

    So, treaties, shmeaties to Vladimir Vladimirovich.

  45. 45.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 3:05 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): You’re correct. And I’ll consider “Russian apologists” a compliment coming from a neo-conservative apologist such as yourself.

  46. 46.

    Mike J

    March 11, 2015 at 3:05 pm

    Everyone ready for the Shakhtar Donetsk game?

  47. 47.

    Cervantes

    March 11, 2015 at 3:07 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    How about the “don’t give people another fucking thing to be anxious about” rule?

    Sounds good, except insofar as it may conflict with other, pre-existing rules, the ignoring of which may amount to, in your metaphor, pouring gasoline, or perhaps turpentine, on the fire.

  48. 48.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 3:11 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Would that “don’t give people another fucking thing to be anxious about” rule include the role the US has played and continues to play in the coup and civil war?

  49. 49.

    Peale

    March 11, 2015 at 3:14 pm

    I don’t see the issue. It’s their territory. Unless we have a treaty that creates a zone of no nukes, I don’t see what the issue is.

  50. 50.

    trollhattan

    March 11, 2015 at 3:15 pm

    @BobS:
    HODOR! bin HODOR!. False flags are false, amen.

  51. 51.

    trollhattan

    March 11, 2015 at 3:16 pm

    @MattF:
    Technically speaking that would be the first time, had it occurred at all.

  52. 52.

    A Humble Lurker

    March 11, 2015 at 3:17 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):
    They aren’t the same guy?

  53. 53.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 11, 2015 at 3:19 pm

    @BobS: Hmmm….I don’t seem to recall anyone in Ukraine asking for nukes to be deployed to their territory. Perhaps the voices in your head can clarify this for us?

  54. 54.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 3:21 pm

    @Peale: It’s their territory

    It is not internationally recognized as such.

  55. 55.

    Cervantes

    March 11, 2015 at 3:23 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Well, there almost certainly were nuclear weapons there prior to 1994, when Ukraine signed the Budapest Memorandum, which assured Ukraine’s territorial integrity in exchange for its relinquishing nuclear weapons.

    The nuclear weapons Ukraine relinquished were never its own; they were always under Russian control — and if Russia controlled those weapons then, including any that were located in Crimea, then … (or so an argument might proceed).

    Re Putin what can one say, other than that his corruption, duplicity, and hegemonic ambition are all sadly familiar?

  56. 56.

    Roger Moore

    March 11, 2015 at 3:23 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:
    I’m actually at least mildly sympathetic to Putin on the CFE treaty. It was signed with the assumption that NATO and the Warsaw Pact were going to remain in place as functioning entities. Bringing a bunch of former Warsaw Pact countries into NATO substantially undermines the basic assumptions of the treaty, and I can see how a Russian would see it as bad faith on NATO’s part.

  57. 57.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 3:25 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: Hmmm….I don’t seem to recall anyone saying the “don’t give people another fucking thing to be anxious about” rule pertained exclusively to nukes. Perhaps you can point to the clause in your made up (but nevertheless wise) rule that can clarify this for us?

  58. 58.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 3:29 pm

    @Peale: @Gin & Tonic: And everyone knows international law is for them to respect, not U.S.

  59. 59.

    bemused

    March 11, 2015 at 3:30 pm

    Mika on msnbc just now saying the rapper’s lyrics aren’t responsible for what happened on the frat bus…”there was no one on the panel saying that.” Huh, so what were they saying then? Rap music is brought up, Kristol says rap causes racism. I’m confused.

  60. 60.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 11, 2015 at 3:34 pm

    @bemused: A collection of talking heads that belong on pikes.

    That’s what you’re talking about here.

  61. 61.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 3:35 pm

    @BobS: Topic of the post is Russia. I’m staying on topic.

  62. 62.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 3:39 pm

    Re Putin what can one say, other than that his corruption, duplicity, and hegemonic ambition are all sadly familiar?

    Certainly more accurate than “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness”

  63. 63.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 3:40 pm

    @Mike J: Here’s a Shakhtar scarf on one of L’viv’s iconic lions (yeah, I know today’s match is not in L’viv.)

  64. 64.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 3:40 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Because world events occur in a vacuum.

  65. 65.

    Just One More Canuck

    March 11, 2015 at 3:41 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:No – his paycheques bounced

  66. 66.

    bemused

    March 11, 2015 at 3:42 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Yes. Mika is shocked, shocked that anyone could possibly come to the conclusion they were tying rap music to racism even if there was no reason to bring rap music into the topic in the first place which Mika did.

  67. 67.

    Mike J

    March 11, 2015 at 3:45 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: It’s a pity that they can’t even play their home games at home.

    Chelski and PSG both wearing armbands for the fallen french athletes.

  68. 68.

    PIGL

    March 11, 2015 at 3:45 pm

    Does the USA have the right to deploy nuclear weapons in Alaska?

    Just curious.

  69. 69.

    trollhattan

    March 11, 2015 at 3:49 pm

    Know how shit blows up in Texas and kills workers, and how that makes Texas better than the rest of us? Still does.

    An explosion has killed three people and injured one at an oil and gas field in West Texas, a spokesman for well owner Parsley Energy Inc. said on Wednesday.

    “Our thoughts are with the families,” Lisa Elliott of Parsley said of the accident on Tuesday in Upton County, Texas.

    The Occupational Safety and Health Administration said it was investigating the rig explosion about 50 miles south of Midland that involved contractors at Mason Well Service firm.

    Upton County’s Office of Emergency Management, via social media, called the news sad and said few details were available.

    Parsley is one of many small companies working in the Permian Basin of Texas, one of the top U.S. shale oil fields.

    There have been numerous deadly rig explosions in the United States over the last decade. Wells can blow out when drilling rigs are overwhelmed by pressure from underground.

    So happens I attended a workplace health and safety training today.

  70. 70.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 11, 2015 at 3:49 pm

    @PIGL: Well, did the US just recently annex Alaska from Canada after giving it to Canada some 20 years ago when the US broke up into a bunch of constituent states following the collapse of the Reagan Revolution?

    I mean, let’s see how much we can make John Yoo smile by enhanced interrogating some metaphors, shall we?

  71. 71.

    dr. luba

    March 11, 2015 at 3:54 pm

    @PIGL: Well, Alaska is a state of the USA, and internationally recognized as such. Crimea, on the other hand…..

  72. 72.

    dr. luba

    March 11, 2015 at 3:57 pm

    This news is right on the heels of the repurposing of the GULAG museum in Russia (to celebrate the hard-working guards, of course), and plans to open a Stalin museum in a village NE of Moscow.

    It’s deja vu all over again…….

  73. 73.

    trollhattan

    March 11, 2015 at 3:58 pm

    @dr. luba:
    But…what if Russia never cashed the check we wrote for the Alaska territory and still owns it? Holy moly, Sarah(tm) was right to warn us! Put Tawd and little Duffel out on the front porch, Sarah, so they can be our lookouts.

  74. 74.

    PIGL

    March 11, 2015 at 4:06 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: I am sure there are Canadian recidivists who would argue that Alaska really belongs to us.

    I think the Crimea “belongs” to Russia, that there is no way they are giving it back, and that it is petulant and absurd to expect them to pretend otherwise. That being the case, they can put nuclear weapons there if they feel like it. It is, for one thing, a major naval base, which, as I mentioned, they plan to keep no matter what anyone says. I just no basis for getting all worked up about it, is all.

    The Reuters article is brief and uninformative, but it sound to me as if someone asked Mr. Ulyanov if they could, and of course he said “yes”. What was he supposed to say? Break down in tears and promise to give Crimea back to the American puppet government in Kiev, with apologies and nice big cake?

  75. 75.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 4:07 pm

    @dr. luba: That’s disgusting. It would be like the United States having museums honoring the Confederacy.

  76. 76.

    trollhattan

    March 11, 2015 at 4:11 pm

    @PIGL:
    I’m experiencing HODOR! vu.

  77. 77.

    Mike E

    March 11, 2015 at 4:19 pm

    @trollhattan: B.$.!

  78. 78.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 11, 2015 at 4:22 pm

    @PIGL: One can make the same argument that Crimea “belongs” to say Turkey, or even Mongolia.

    Russia’s claim of “ownership” of Crimea only dates back 2 centuries. Hell, the Germans can say it belongs to them because they occupied it twice during the 20th Century.

    And Russia has a better claim on Alaska than Canada does…unfortunately for the Russians, the US kept the receipt.

  79. 79.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 4:26 pm

    @PIGL: I think the Crimea “belongs” to Russia

    The Tatars feel differently. I think they have more of a historical claim than Moscow does.

  80. 80.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 4:28 pm

    @BobS: I’ll grant you this – you don’t suffer from logorrhea like the other Bob.

  81. 81.

    PIGL

    March 11, 2015 at 4:29 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: well possession is 9 tenths of the law. Majestic as the Golden Horde’s claim may once have been, they are not getting it back, either. Not any time soon.

    To repeat myself, I think it absurd to get all dudgeony when a spokesman says that yes, in fact, since you ask, an area that we regard as national territory can be treated just like any other bit of national territory.

    We should be specially wary of invitations to such feelings these days because of the titanic propaganda warz being waged.

  82. 82.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 4:39 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: How much longer is U.S. “ownership” of our part of North America?

    @Gin & Tonic: I’ll grant you this — you run away from arguments you know you can’t win.

  83. 83.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 4:44 pm

    @BobS: Thought I saw a faint ember of a sense of humor. My bad.

  84. 84.

    chopper

    March 11, 2015 at 4:45 pm

    @Just One More Canuck:

    as I mentioned once before, the checks are unfortunately denominated in rubles. he had to wait until enough came in to make the work worth it.

  85. 85.

    chopper

    March 11, 2015 at 4:49 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    ‘sense of humor’? that’s nazi talk, brah.

  86. 86.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 4:50 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Not your bad — just one more thing you get wrong.

  87. 87.

    ruemara

    March 11, 2015 at 6:00 pm

    I follow Katherine Van De huwiffleorsomething from the Nation. She’s been very adamant that Russia is being bullied by a war mongering West. Should be interesting to see how this will be presented.

  88. 88.

    Mike J

    March 11, 2015 at 6:20 pm

    @PIGL:

    well possession is 9 tenths of the law.

    So your views on Eretz Israel are…?

  89. 89.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 6:25 pm

    @ruemara: She is married (since 1988) to Stephen Cohen, an American academic who has been an apologist for the USSR and then Russia for literally a half-century. In his eyes, nothing Ukraine does or has ever done has any legitimacy. I don’t necessarily want to say that his views are her views, but I don’t doubt that he’s had some influence on her positions in their nearly three decades of marriage.

  90. 90.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 6:26 pm

    @BobS: Thank you ever so much for pointing out my errors.

  91. 91.

    Calouste

    March 11, 2015 at 6:34 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: The Crimea was part of the Russian SSR in the Soviet Union until it was transferred to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954. That the source of the current issues.

  92. 92.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 6:46 pm

    @Calouste: You know, I’m pretty sure that VDE knows this, hence his “2 centuries” comment (it’s been part of the Russian Empire since roughly the 1780’s-1790’s.) But the Crimean Tatars controlled it for longer, from 1441 to the 1780’s. Since the Crimean Tatars still live there, it might be logical to assume that their views should hold some weight. However, since their elected leader is outside of Crimea and is prohibited from entering the territory, logic does not apply. Force does.

  93. 93.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    March 11, 2015 at 6:51 pm

    @PIGL:

    Last I heard, Crimea was supposedly an independent republic that just happened to lurve Russia. Have the Russians now dropped that pretense and admit they annexed it?

    ETA: Oh, wait, that’s right — they held a sham election where the only options in the ballot were “Join Russia” and “Join Russia.” Clearly a completely legitimate expression of the will of the people, comrade!

  94. 94.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    March 11, 2015 at 6:57 pm

    News from the front: Bob in Portland let me know privately that he was banhammered, which is why he can’t be with us anymore.

  95. 95.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 6:59 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): Wow. You and BiP e-mail? I guess stranger things may have happened, but I can’t think of one offhand.

    Wonder who banned him? I’ve never asked for or even suggested that.

  96. 96.

    Roger Moore

    March 11, 2015 at 7:16 pm

    @Calouste:

    That the source of the current issues.

    I don’t think that’s the explanation for the ongoing Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine.

  97. 97.

    Cervantes

    March 11, 2015 at 7:17 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):

    That is a shame.

  98. 98.

    Cpl Cam

    March 11, 2015 at 7:26 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): Maybe he got a job with the USA today.

    http://rt.com/news/239677-azov-nazi-volunteer-ukraine/

    Odd seeing the main stream media trying to quell to rush to Cold War II: European Invasion. Especially after they spent all that time convincing y’all that a guy that didn’t even come in fifth in the last Russian election is Putin’s “main rival.”

  99. 99.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 7:39 pm

    @Cpl Cam: I noticed that way upthread where Nemstov was referred to as Putin’s “principle domestic opponent”, which is laughably wrong. I’m guessing a lot of people here were the same rubes who bought the WMD propaganda pedaled by the baby Bush administration, Clinton’s bullshit about genocide in Kosovo, the first Bush’s lies about Panama, and Reagan’s imaginary communist hordes invading from Nicaragua.

  100. 100.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 7:41 pm

    @Mike J: Uh, 7-0? WTF happened?

  101. 101.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    March 11, 2015 at 7:47 pm

    @BobS:

    According to Wikipedia, Nemstov was working in a report about Russia’s involvement in Ukraine when he was murdered:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Nemtsov

    But I’m sure it was all just a big co-inkydink that he was murdered before he could release it. Or the CIA killed him to embarrass poor, innocent Vlad.

  102. 102.

    Cervantes

    March 11, 2015 at 7:51 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Stephen Cohen, an American academic who has been an apologist for the USSR and then Russia for literally a half-century.

    Bear in mind that while the New Republic constantly refers to him as not only an “apologist” but also a “toady,” he did get his doctorate from Colombia and has taught for nearly five decades at Princeton and NYU.

  103. 103.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 7:52 pm

    @BobS: Whom would you consider the primary principal opponent, out of curiosity? Zyuganov? Who’s not held any government posts and only gets votes from those nostalgic for the Communists. Prokhorov? Who actually thinks he’d move back to Moscow from Nice or Courchevel or New York or wherever he hangs his hat these days? Zhirinovsky? It’s really funny how much ink the Russian press has spilled on saying how unimportant Nemtsov was.

  104. 104.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 7:55 pm

    @Cervantes: I am aware of his CV. I also am friends with someone who had him when he was a TA at Princeton a half-century ago, and he was an unabashed apologist for the USSR then. Nothing has changed.

  105. 105.

    Robert Sneddon

    March 11, 2015 at 8:05 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): Quick question, what sort of election was held to decide whether Hawaii was going to become part of the United States? What were the options on the ballot?

  106. 106.

    Cervantes

    March 11, 2015 at 8:14 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    It’s entirely possible that your friend’s assertion is true. Should I take it on faith?

    Anyhow, my purpose was just to add a little objective information to go with “toady” and “apologist.”

  107. 107.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    March 11, 2015 at 8:16 pm

    @Robert Sneddon:

    And that’s why there’s a Hawaiian independence movement. I’m not getting why you think that if the US did something bad, other countries get a free pass for doing bad things, too. Does the US genocide of Native Americans mean we’re not allowed to think the Holocaust was a bad thing? We shouldn’t have held war crimes trials because, after all, we had done worse things in our own past?

  108. 108.

    Cervantes

    March 11, 2015 at 8:19 pm

    @BobS:

    Re Putin what can one say, other than that his corruption, duplicity, and hegemonic ambition are all sadly familiar?

    Certainly more accurate than “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness”

    Would you care to elaborate? (Thanks.)

  109. 109.

    Cervantes

    March 11, 2015 at 8:20 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):

    Past, present, and foreseeable future.

  110. 110.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 8:35 pm

    @Cervantes: You can take it however you want, based on what you paid to read it and what I was paid to write it. Here’s what my friend wrote a while back: “My preceptor was a young-ish Assistant Professor by the name of Stephen F. Cohen. I quickly found him to be a Soviet apologist, quick to promote Communist points of view and even then admitting to knowing little about Ukraine. Needless to say, I locked horns with him numerous times in classroom discussions about human rights abuses in Ukraine. The man was defending Stalin to me, and questioning the Famine in Ukraine!”

    I could, of course, be making this up out of whole cloth.

    Note that I did use the word “apologist” but did not use the word “toady.” I am generally careful with my language, and I stand by it in this instance.

  111. 111.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    March 11, 2015 at 8:36 pm

    @Cervantes:

    I don’t think that the US should stay silent while Russia stomps all over its neighbors because our own past and even present actions were not perfect. YMMV, of course.

  112. 112.

    PIGL

    March 11, 2015 at 8:56 pm

    @Mike J: at first glance, a fair comment. And when Israel can show a fair election that says that 80% (or even 55%) of the palestinians now dwelling on the west bank and gaza accept annexation, I will accept it too.

    On second glance, Israel does not have the clout to make their seizure stand, and they do not have the moral nor historical claim that Russia does to Crimea.

  113. 113.

    Robert Sneddon

    March 11, 2015 at 9:01 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): You mean there wasn’t any kind of election? How did Hawaii become a state then? Did the US just annex it and then use it as a major military base once it was in the Union? Next thing you’ll be telling me the Cuban government wants to close the US military outpost at Guantanamo, as if that would ever happen.

  114. 114.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 9:06 pm

    @PIGL: Forgive me, I’m a little slow. Are you suggesting the Crimean independence referendum of a year ago was a “fair election”?

  115. 115.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 9:09 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): I’m impressed at your ability to solve a murder mystery from 5000 miles away.@Gin & Tonic: Election results would indicate it’s the Communist Party — are you seriously maintaining that Nemstov was Putin’s “principle domestic opponent”? @Cervantes: Just that “corruption, duplicity, and hegemonic ambition” is as (if not more) accurate a description of life in these United States as Russia.

  116. 116.

    BobS

    March 11, 2015 at 9:14 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: At least we can agree on one thing.

  117. 117.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 9:26 pm

    @BobS: That being what?

  118. 118.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 9:31 pm

    @BobS: I spell it “principal”, actually. And while Zyuganov did, indeed, get more votes than Nemtsov, I submit that Putin had more reason to worry about Nemtsov than about Zyuganov.

    In the end, one of those two is still alive, and one was gunned down in a location covered by more security agents and more cameras than probably any other location in Moscow. It’s roughly equivalent to, say, Rand Paul being shot in the back while strolling along the border of Lafayette Square.

  119. 119.

    Cervantes

    March 11, 2015 at 10:09 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    I could, of course, be making this up out of whole cloth.

    Actually, the thought never crossed my mind.

    I appreciate the quotation from your friend. If I were to question anything in it, it would be the use of these words: “promote” and “defending,” both of these being attempted paraphrases of Cohen; plus I’d note that being a “Soviet apologist” and being “quick to promote Communist points of view” are not necessarily the same thing.

    Also: I did not mean to suggest that the use of the word “toady” was yours; it came from some child at the New Republic.

  120. 120.

    Cervantes

    March 11, 2015 at 10:12 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):

    I agree that a sense of one’s own fallibility should temper with humility any tendency towards self-righteousness.

  121. 121.

    Cervantes

    March 11, 2015 at 10:13 pm

    @BobS:

    A question worth more than a modicum of thought, I agree.

  122. 122.

    PIGL

    March 11, 2015 at 10:43 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: Based on the 97% aye, I’d have to say, “no”. Based on the post election polling cited on wiki, I’d have to say “maybe”.

    The facts, as I see them, are as follows. Sebastapol was going to remain a Russian naval base no matter what anyone else thought about the matter, short of nuclear war. I see the “annexation” of Crimea as a response to Western attempts to integrate Ukraine into their economic and military sphere, for the explicit purpose of threatening and weakening Russia. These attempts were needless and contrary to explicit prior agreements. That being the case, no other outcome was likely. Outrage, if any must be felt, can certainly be directed in more than one direction.

  123. 123.

    priscianus jr

    March 11, 2015 at 11:00 pm

    @Peale: “I don’t see the issue. It’s their territory. ”

    They certainly think so. Some might differ . . .

  124. 124.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 11, 2015 at 11:03 pm

    @PIGL: These attempts were needless

    What if the Ukrainian people actually wanted to be part of the Western economic sphere? Would that still be needless? The Maidan movement starting in November of 2013, regardless of what you may read from certain people here or in the Russian media, was a genuine mass popular desire to be part of Europe, as opposed to Yanukovych’s attempt to reject that. Ukrainians travel to Europe, look at, say, Poland or Slovakia and say “that could be us; that should be us.”

  125. 125.

    priscianus jr

    March 11, 2015 at 11:08 pm

    @trollhattan: Know how shit blows up in Texas and kills workers, and how that makes Texas better than the rest of us?

    The tree of liberty is watered by the blood of Texan oilfield workers, son.

  126. 126.

    priscianus jr

    March 11, 2015 at 11:17 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: What if the Ukrainian people actually wanted to be part of the Western economic sphere?

    There’s a lot of truth to that. They prefer the tender mercies of European banks to the constant bullying of Russia. A lot Austrian money has gone into luxury construction in Kiev, etc.

  127. 127.

    PIGL

    March 11, 2015 at 11:23 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: I think the issue was more military. Russia accepted Poland being integrated into Europe. NATO, not so much. And then of course there’s the subordinate clause that you neglected: for the specific purpose of threatening and weakening Russia. Your fuckers in Washington just do not know when to stop. Then, too, there was Ukraine’s apparent desire to pay its way in with Russian gas. There’s more then one side to the story here, is all I’m really saying.

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