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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Get up in the morning slaving for bread, sir

Get up in the morning slaving for bread, sir

by DougJ|  March 18, 201510:04 am| 112 Comments

This post is in: Foreign Affairs

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I got kind of interested in Israeli politics during the run-up to yesterday’s elections but I will soon lose interest, because I am unable to get a meaningful sense of other countries’politics (it took me 20 years to understand our own politics) and because what sense I do get usually depresses me. You know, there’s plenty of nice, thoughtful people in Country X, but they get steamrolled by sociopathic propagandists promoting some form of Country X exceptionalism. Same shit, different country.

I had a brief episode of interest in Greek politics and I learned something: that even the liberal John Oliver is an asshole austerian and probably a racist (southern Europeans are the blahs of Europe).

I’d like to learn something from my fleeting interest in Israel. The other day Paul Krugman wrote:

According to Luxembourg Income Study data, the share of Israel’s population living on less than half the country’s median income — a widely accepted definition of relative poverty — more than doubled, to 20.5 percent from 10.2 percent, between 1992 and 2010. The share of children in poverty almost quadrupled, to 27.4 percent from 7.8 percent. Both numbers are the worst in the advanced world, by a large margin.

That’s a huge increase and it can’t be solely because of some trickle down type policies, right? Israel wasn’t even ruled by the right those entire 18 years. It must be some kind of demographic change, I’m assuming. Is it from a rise in the number of ultra-orthodox, who are disproportionately likely to be poor? Or what?

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112Comments

  1. 1.

    Cervantes

    March 18, 2015 at 10:12 am

    I’d like to learn something from my fleeting interest in Israel.

    Learn this, then:

    All has been revealed to a watching world. Netanyahu’s reversion to racism in the last days of a desperate campaign, his explicit denunciation of “Arab voters” on Facebook so as to get his people out, along with his repudiation of the two-state solution — and the huge reward delivered to him by Israelis for these statements — should be clarifying revelations to the American political class. This is Israel.

    Everything you have been told about the “Jewish democracy” by [Israel’s] supporters: it is wrong. It may be Jewish, but it is no democracy, this is a white settler society where a fearful privileged group of Jews holds on to its power in ever-expanding colonies by reelecting a strong leader, now in his tenth year as premier, who will use threats and violence against the Palestinians. This place is what Ali Abunimah and Max Blumenthal told us it was years ago. Blumenthal’s video Feeling the Hate in Jerusalem was censored just about everywhere he put it up six years ago. MJ Rosenberg, a liberal Zionist, said that Blumenthal had caricatured the Israeli public by quoting a few yokels.

    Well today those yokels have spoken, and they are Israel.

    That’s Philip Weiss talking.

  2. 2.

    Hawes

    March 18, 2015 at 10:19 am

    Those poor children? Arab Israelis

  3. 3.

    pseudonymous in nc

    March 18, 2015 at 10:19 am

    It must be some kind of demographic change, I’m assuming.

    Among working-age adults, Arab women and ultra-Orthodox men.

    But also seniors on fixed incomes with rising prices for essentials, and middle-class Israelis facing spiralling prices for housing.

  4. 4.

    Steeplejack

    March 18, 2015 at 10:25 am

    @Cervantes:

    Link? Or context, at least?

  5. 5.

    Josie

    March 18, 2015 at 10:26 am

    @pseudonymous in nc:

    But also seniors on fixed incomes with rising prices for essentials, and middle-class Israelis facing spiralling prices for housing.

    Gosh, this sounds sort of familiar. Hmmm……

  6. 6.

    MomSense

    March 18, 2015 at 10:27 am

    Remember the outrage about President Carter’s book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid It seems like the Israelis voted for apartheid yesterday. Depressing.

  7. 7.

    Hunter Gathers

    March 18, 2015 at 10:27 am

    Shorter Bibi – ‘Sand Negroes! Run for yer lives! There’re voting!’

    Why anyone would want to become the South Africa of the Middle East is beyond my pay grade, but then again it seems that White people around the globe have lost their collective shit.

  8. 8.

    liberal

    March 18, 2015 at 10:27 am

    I thought it was Arab Israelis, Jewish Araab immigrants and their descendents, and even some “Russians”.

    Also, in the past few decades Israel has gone from a socialist economy to a capitalistic one.

    Finally, perhaps there’s a tendency among the more recent Eastern European immigrants for the creation of oligarchs, though it’s not entirely clear we’re all that much better in that department.

  9. 9.

    Violet

    March 18, 2015 at 10:28 am

    In Krugman’s blog post about the income inequality issue in Israel he includes a nice graph illustrating it in comparison to the US.

  10. 10.

    Cervantes

    March 18, 2015 at 10:29 am

    @Steeplejack:

    Oops. Sorry.

    It’s Philip writing today about what Netanyahu’s victory means, after apologizing for the crazy optimism he sustained until late yesterday.

    (I’m not actually criticizing him here.)

  11. 11.

    mainmata

    March 18, 2015 at 10:30 am

    There is a big difference between the technologically advanced, affluent and relatively liberal Jewish population and the lower classes that are often Orthodox or ultra-Orthodox (the so-called haredi) and Arab Israelis. The haredi are the fastest growing part of the Israeli population but are largely self-removed from the secular educational system and even much of the economy and so they constitute the largest share of the impoverished (self-impoverished by the way) and those most dependent upon welfare. They are also by far the most reactionary politically and socially. As the Haredi become an ever larger part of Israel’s population, they will constitute a huge drag on the economy and the political system.

  12. 12.

    Cervantes

    March 18, 2015 at 10:31 am

    @Hunter Gathers:

    In important ways Israel has long been worse than “the South Africa of the Middle East.”

  13. 13.

    Mike E

    March 18, 2015 at 10:35 am

    Wait…you want me to Jew-splain it to you? That’s what the innernetz is for!

    Oops. On second thot, mebbe you shouldn’t. Teh google seems to be all about pr0n and conspiracy theories…

    Eww. Never mind!

  14. 14.

    Steeplejack

    March 18, 2015 at 10:36 am

    @Cervantes:

    Thanks.

  15. 15.

    SFAW

    March 18, 2015 at 10:37 am

    Desmond Dekker! I’m still amazed that there was a market for a song about one of the Lost Tribes of Rego Park Jamaica.

  16. 16.

    Steeplejack

    March 18, 2015 at 10:37 am

    @DougJ:

    Israel wasn’t even ruled by the right those entire 18 years.

    Regardless of the nominal party in power, Israel apparently is all in on the oligarchy thing. Krugman notes that “roughly 20 families control companies that account for half the total value of Israel’s stock market.”

    At the other end, Krugman says, “Israel does less to lift people out of poverty than any other advanced country—yes, even less than the United States,” although he doesn’t specify what constitutes “lifting people out of poverty.”

    So you’ve got people at the bottom who can’t get a leg up and a tiny minority at the very top taking more and more. That would seem to be a sufficient explanation right there, aside from whatever demographic changes are happening.

  17. 17.

    Lee

    March 18, 2015 at 10:39 am

    I had a brief episode of interest in Greek politics and I learned something: that even the liberal John Oliver is an asshole austerian and probably a racist (southern Europeans are the blahs of Europe).

    I did not have the interpretation of that comedy bit at all.

    Heck he missed some bit of comedy, the greek finance minister worked as an in house economist for a game company (Valve).

  18. 18.

    gorram

    March 18, 2015 at 10:40 am

    I think the recent uptick in poverty is complicated but probably reflects that the Israeli economy was always more tenuous and unstable than many European ones. Remember that a large part of the Israeli settler population left Europe with even less than the Marshall Plan recipients, but weren’t part of much in the way of a similar investment program (there were some restitution programs for the Holocaust but they weren’t as large or infrastructure-minded as the Marshall Plan).

    Not that there isn’t a settler-colonial element to Israeli politics and economics, but Israel is coming from the unique situation of global antisemitism that puts them in a vulnerable position economically.

  19. 19.

    Betty Cracker

    March 18, 2015 at 10:40 am

    We now know what the majority of Israeli voters want, which is what Republicans in the US want. The question is whether Democratic voters and politicians will continue to unconditionally support an Israeli state that has rejected negotiations and aspires to continue the occupation forever.

    The theoretical support for a two-state solution was always a bit of a fig leaf, but now the dangly bits are out for all to see. Will our party be okay with that? I’m not, but I’m afraid they will be.

  20. 20.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 18, 2015 at 10:42 am

    @mainmata:

    My sense — and it is anecdotal only — is that the ultra-Orthodox in Israel share with their US Christianist counterparts a “Quiverful” mentality. I have a friend (Reform) in New Jersey whose daughter married an ultra-Orthodox Israeli and promptly had fourteen children. Blink and there were nine or ten grandchildren (probably many more by now — I’ve lost track) and now it seems every few months I’m congratulating her on a new great-grandchild.

    Edit: I guess I didn’t make it clear that daughter, husband and large family live in Israel, not New Jersey!

  21. 21.

    Sherparick

    March 18, 2015 at 10:44 am

    I was thinking about Krugman’s column, Netanyahu’s anti-Obama ploy which he followed with an appeal to Israeli hard right detestation and hatred for all things Palestinian and Arab (repudiating the 2-state solution and denouncing Palestinian Arab citizens voting in Israel’s election, and his resulting victory. Netanyahu has always been a promoted of elite business interests in Israel. So like in the U.S., the call for “tribal unity and warfare” against the other binds the worker, who does not particularly benefit and who in fact may suffer material injury, to the interests and policies of the elite, giving him or her because of his status as a member of the favored group, both psychological and actual privileges in looking down on those he or she regards as sub-human.

  22. 22.

    Cheap Jim, formerly Cheap Jim

    March 18, 2015 at 10:46 am

    Krugman himself gave some explanation for the trend. Privatization of state-controlled industries has removed a good deal of what used to be common wealth and put it in the hands of people now even more willing and able to support the political parties who did the removing. So, less wealth held in common, more business now used to extract private profit, and some of that profit channeled back to support the whole system. It’s a pretty efficient racket.

  23. 23.

    jonas

    March 18, 2015 at 10:50 am

    As a several commenters have already pointed out, a lot of the ultra-Orthodox essentially live off welfare and are often quite poor. The men study at yeshiva all day and the women are homemakers, and they tend to have very large families — 8-10 kids is not unusual. They also are exempted from serving in the army, which is a sore point among many Israelis.

  24. 24.

    Cervantes

    March 18, 2015 at 10:53 am

    @gorram:

    Israel is coming from the unique situation of global antisemitism that puts them in a vulnerable position economically.

    I wonder if that explains the economic outlook in the West Bank and Gaza.

  25. 25.

    El Caganer

    March 18, 2015 at 10:54 am

    @mainmata: You mean the haredi are takers, not makers?

  26. 26.

    jonas

    March 18, 2015 at 10:55 am

    @SiubhanDuinne: Ultra-orthodox ritual purity laws are such that sexual intercourse is only really permitted at times when a woman is most likely to be fertile, and they also forbid most forms of birth control.

  27. 27.

    The Ancient Randonneur

    March 18, 2015 at 11:01 am

    Clearly, Bibi studies history. Nothing quite like appealing to the unspoken fears of “reasonable” folks. You might find quite a few totebags in the homes of those “reasonable” people

  28. 28.

    ChrisH

    March 18, 2015 at 11:01 am

    @Lee: Knowing the Greek Finance minister was hired by Valve increases my optimism of Greece’s chances

  29. 29.

    Craigo

    March 18, 2015 at 11:02 am

    The decline is living standards, until quite recently, was almost entirely among the Israeli Arabs.

    http://www.dirasat-aclp.org/fact-sheet-socio-economic.pdf

    The haredim and Beta Israel have less education and higher unemployment rates than the average Israeli also, but they also receive substantial state benefits. The Arabs, by and large, do not.

    Since the crash, however, there’s been a housing shortage and wage stagnation.

  30. 30.

    Bobby Thomson

    March 18, 2015 at 11:07 am

    @ChrisH: the cake is a lie.

  31. 31.

    qwerty42

    March 18, 2015 at 11:09 am

    @Mike E: …Oops. On second thot, mebbe you shouldn’t. Teh google seems to be all about pr0n and conspiracy theories…
    And cats. Don’t forget the cats.

  32. 32.

    Interrobang

    March 18, 2015 at 11:11 am

    @Cervantes: The fact that Abu Mazen and the gang are sitting on billions of dollars while their people starve probably explains the Palestinian economic outlook.

    The Haredim are definitely a huge drag on the Israeli economy. So are out-of-control housing prices (if you want to buy an apartment in a working-class bedroom community of Tel Aviv, yes, on the Med coast, but still, you should expect to pay at least US$1M for it — figures seen personally as of April 2013). A lot of people sink most of their income into their housing. I personally know a couple people who live in the West Bank because there, they can get an actual house, with a yard and stuff, for what North Americans would consider a reasonable price; you can afford to live there on two white-collar salaries.

    The engineered collapse of a lot of socialist programmes also contributes — the transfer-wealth-upward faction managed to get to Israel too.

  33. 33.

    Lee

    March 18, 2015 at 11:11 am

    @ChrisH:

    I had the same reaction when I learned he worked for Valve.

    The Oliver bit is still funny :)

  34. 34.

    Mike E

    March 18, 2015 at 11:13 am

    @qwerty42: Well, that goes without saying! LOL

  35. 35.

    Joey Maloney

    March 18, 2015 at 11:14 am

    The inequality comes from privatization, as Krugman said. In the 1980s, under – guess who? – state industries were privatized. You have to remember what a small country this is. From its founding it was bankrolled by a small number of families, fewer than two dozen, who ended up being the major landholders. When state industries were privatized, these same families bought them up. That includes consumer necessity providers such as electricity, natural gas, and telecom. That’s a crapload of money every month flowing upwards into private hands instead of to the state.

    So you have a very few fabulously wealthy individuals, combined with the Haredim with large families, at most one income-earner, and lower education. You have relatively low wages (the minimum wage is NIS 30/hour) and relatively high rents and food prices owing to it being such a small market, plus 17% VAT. And you have the Arabs who don’t even get a fair share of the meager state benefits and the Bedouin some of whom live in a nearly noncash economy.

  36. 36.

    kc

    March 18, 2015 at 11:19 am

    I had a brief episode of interest in Greek politics and I learned something: that even the liberal John Oliver is an asshole

    Wonder how long it will take everyone else to catch on.

  37. 37.

    Adam L Silverman

    March 18, 2015 at 11:22 am

    @Betty Cracker: Betty,

    This is not the question. There is no political party or movement that has captured a majority or even a plurality approaching a majority of Israeli votes. The fragmentation of the electorate has increased from a time when Israel had two larger parties – one representing Labour Zionism on the left and the revisionist Zionists on the right, with a number of very small parties that garnered minimal support. In that system solid pluralities and outright majorities could be achieved by either of the two large parties. This is no longer the case.

  38. 38.

    Elie

    March 18, 2015 at 11:23 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    The real crux will be how it goes with our military decisions in that region. We can’t afford nor is it in our interests to do another occupation to help the resident asshole countries in the ME. These include those representing both Shia and Sunni interests. As rabid as the republicans are talking now, I really don’t see a republican administration going all in on another US occupation there… of course I could be wrong, but I don’t see it with our need to address China’s growing strength and the focus of Southeast Asia. This is going to necessarily force some hard decisions vis a vis Israel — no matter who is in office…Of course, stupidity is an American tradition. This puts Hillary and anyone else running on a really really hot seat. Our foreign policy is going to be a bitch to run

  39. 39.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    March 18, 2015 at 11:28 am

    @kc: What am I missing? I’ve got no particular investment in Oliver, he can be really funny, but I’ve never seen him as the phee-nom most of my fellow travelers do, but I don’t see any austerian-ism, much less racism, in that clip. It’s very superficial and kind of pointless– I couldn’t figure out why the audience started laughing, and now that I know they were laughing at a “popped collar”, I still can’t– but I didn’t see enough meat in that bit to make it offensive

  40. 40.

    Adam L Silverman

    March 18, 2015 at 11:28 am

    DougJ,

    Krugman is correct that the kleptocratic trend comes from Likud decisions to begin to privatize the delivery of a lot of previous public goods is partially to blame. What he didn’t cover was that the manner in which this was done was to set up a process that is exceedingly exploitative – of Israeli Arabs, Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, and other Jewish Israelis. There was a specific effort to create a privatization scheme that would make the Chicago Boys proud and Margaret Thatcher jealous. It was very effective.

  41. 41.

    xenos

    March 18, 2015 at 11:29 am

    @mainmata: exactly… In an apartheid state you get a revanchiste dole-taking class. When it gets big enough they wither drive the country into destruction or have all the other sectors of society turn on them.

    The medium-term risk is not another war with the Arabs but civil war.

  42. 42.

    AnonPhenom

    March 18, 2015 at 11:31 am

    It must be some kind of demographic change…

    I’d look to some changes in the dominant sectors of Israel’s economy. Sorta’ along the lines of the way finance has grown to be such a dominant force in ours. I’m thinking high-tech-telcom-military stuff and, like everywhere else, hedge funds with front running HFT algorithms. Those kind of disruptions could reshuffle the deck real quick.

  43. 43.

    schrodinger's cat

    March 18, 2015 at 11:33 am

    The right wing tide is rising world wide. I need to stop reading about politics, too depressing.

  44. 44.

    schrodinger's cat

    March 18, 2015 at 11:37 am

    @The Ancient Randonneur: Bibi’s appeal to his base reminded me of a certain leader in Western Europe from the last century.

  45. 45.

    Elie

    March 18, 2015 at 11:37 am

    Not to get too weirded out, but should there be some concern about how inaccurate the polling was — particularly the exit polling? How do Israelis vote? Do they use the automated voting machines or other techniques that we do? Should there be any concern about hanky panky — esp with the deviance reported from the exit polls? Could the plutocrats be thinking of designing something like this for the US market (my paranoia, I know). Wow! The results just seem really really surprising.

  46. 46.

    Elie

    March 18, 2015 at 11:40 am

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Its about time for a bench clearing brawl over economic distribution. THAT is what is driving the inequality and the subsequent fighting by the have nots to get a piece. We have fewer and fewer people controlling more and more and these plutocracies can only be supported through increasingly right wing and fascist policies.

  47. 47.

    msdc

    March 18, 2015 at 11:57 am

    @gorram:

    I think the recent uptick in poverty is complicated but probably reflects that the Israeli economy was always more tenuous and unstable than many European ones. Remember that a large part of the Israeli settler population left Europe with even less than the Marshall Plan recipients

    I think if your explanation for Israel’s 21st-century economic woes has to go back to 1948, you need a new explanation.

  48. 48.

    Valdivia

    March 18, 2015 at 11:59 am

    Somebody might have mentioned this already but I think its a combination of moving from a true socialist state to one that is embracing Reagan-like economic policies and the huge wave of Russian immigrants and their absorption into israeli society.

  49. 49.

    Mike E

    March 18, 2015 at 12:05 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: And 17 Arab seats this time, a historic high mark!

  50. 50.

    Calouste

    March 18, 2015 at 12:08 pm

    @Hunter Gathers: Israel was best buddies with the apartheid regime in South Africa from the early 1970s onward. You’d almost think it was because they had something in common.

  51. 51.

    Gator90

    March 18, 2015 at 12:11 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat: To which 20th Century western European leader do you refer? There are so many to choose from.

  52. 52.

    cmorenc

    March 18, 2015 at 12:24 pm

    HARD LONG-RUN FACT about Israel:
    – Israel must-win EVERY armed conflict with hostile forces bent on its destruction.
    – Their enemies only have to win ONCE.

    Even if the Israeli military (with U.S. financial and weapons aid) has (so far) been superior to any would-be attacking Arab force, and has enjoyed the additional advantage of divisions within hostile coalitions vs unity within Israel when attacked – someday Israel won’t be so lucky with the limited competence, firepower, and leadership of hostile forces. That’s precisely why so many Israelis are paranoid about Iran – however forgetting that Pakistan already has nuclear weapons and plenty of factions firmly embedded within its power structure who have proved willing to aid hostile hard-core anti-Western factions (Taliban) and share critical nuclear technology information with the likes of the North Korean regime.

    Bottom line: Israel has to find some way to achieve lasting peace with its Arab neighbors and the Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, of such a nature as to effectively undermine the support hard-line forces need to be positioned to launch effective attacks. The FU the West Bank was given to Israel by God/the Torah approach is tactically a stupid strategy in the long run, and only assures that for hundreds of years, Israel will have enemies determined to destroy it, who only have to win ONCE.

  53. 53.

    Betty Cracker

    March 18, 2015 at 12:28 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: I get that it’s complex in Israel, but isn’t the end result still a doubling-down on Netanyahu’s vision — more “settlements” and a flat rejection of negotiations with the Palestinians? The majority of US voters in 2000 cast a ballot for Gore, but we still got the disastrous Bush Administration and its hideous fallout — and so did the world. Isn’t it the same with Israel?

  54. 54.

    Elie

    March 18, 2015 at 12:38 pm

    My personal feeling/belief is that we can’t control Israel. We can only control ourselves. I don’t want to support Israel’s “vision” or goals anymore because they interfere with economic and world stability that effect me and my country. If they want to run the South Africa 2 show, that is their call. They will have to live with the consequences of that for which, I truly don’t care. They have a right wing plutocracy that is aided and abetted by our right wing plutocrats. THAT is the problem that I care about very strongly and worry about or OUR political future. This affiliation of plutocrats and right wing interests is very dangerous and can drag us into a lot of stuff we don’t need to be part of. They have NO interest in democracy anywhere and that has been demonstrated over and over. What are we going to do about THAT?

  55. 55.

    beltane

    March 18, 2015 at 12:42 pm

    @Betty Cracker: It’s worse with Israel. Their electorate is significantly to the right of America’s, at least in those election years when Americans bother turning out to vote. In Israel you have a tiny, though committed left party with a narrow base of support in Tel Aviv, a coalition of Arab parties treated as political untouchables, a centrist totebagger party also with little support outside its secular, Ashkenazi base, and then a range of far-right parties running the gamut from Golden Dawn wannabees to religious extremists of the most obnoxious type imaginable. Netanyahu, with the benefit of being potty trained, represents the most moderate expression of the Israeli right-wing.

    You will never see an Israeli version of Obama, because in Israel it’s the 27%ers who are the sane people while the crazies make up the 73%.

  56. 56.

    Betty Cracker

    March 18, 2015 at 12:44 pm

    @Elie: That gets back to my question: How will Democrats in the US respond? It could go a couple of ways. It would be nice if our Democratic politicians realized that the Netanyahu government exchanged a special relationship with the US for a special relationship with the GOP and quit reflexively kissing Israel’s ass, but I’m not feeling particularly optimistic about that.

  57. 57.

    beltane

    March 18, 2015 at 12:46 pm

    @Elie: Agreed. I couldn’t care less what happens to Israel. I am an American. I do care deeply that our government has been purchased as the tool through which the Israeli leadership can fulfill their expansionist, racist fantasies. THAT is the problem here.

  58. 58.

    Cacti

    March 18, 2015 at 12:47 pm

    @cmorenc:

    Bottom line: Israel has to find some way to achieve lasting peace with its Arab neighbors and the Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, of such a nature as to effectively undermine the support hard-line forces need to be positioned to launch effective attacks. The FU the West Bank was given to Israel by God/the Torah approach is tactically a stupid strategy in the long run, and only assures that for hundreds of years, Israel will have enemies determined to destroy it, who only have to win ONCE.

    As with the re-election of Dubya, I think Israel has sealed its fate for a long time with yesterday’s results.

    Bibi dropped the pretense of being a good faith negotiator for peace, made an 11th hour appeal to anti-Arab racism (including Arab-Israeli citizens), and continued oppression of the Palestinians, and won.

    The Palestinians should continue to press their case for increased diplomatic recognition abroad, and for an adverse ruling from the ICC against the Israeli occupation. They will have these election results as exhibit A that the Israeli government is an overtly criminal regime.

  59. 59.

    beltane

    March 18, 2015 at 12:54 pm

    @Cacti: Netanyahu also made successful last-minute appeals to the average Israelis’ racism towards our president, “Hussein Obama”. We must deal with the fact that our bestest friend in the world looks down on us as being honorary Palestinians, beneath contempt yet ripe for exploitation.

  60. 60.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    March 18, 2015 at 12:54 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Like you, I’m skeptical. Barbara Boxer, I think after announcing her retirement, scolded Boehner for a cheap political stunt, and then said she’d of course attend the speech. Even Feinstein pretended to hold out longer. But then there’s this

    Peter Beinart @ PeterBeinart · 18h 18 hours ago
    kudos to @ RepAdamSchiff who’s on @ CNN now saying US won’t veto Palestinian UN resolutions if Israeli govt doesn’t back Palestinian state

    We’ll see. Of course, that “backing” could be as purely rhetorical as it was last week

  61. 61.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    March 18, 2015 at 12:54 pm

    @beltane: That was so outrageous. I can’t say I’m surprised at the lack of reaction here, but I am disgusted by it.

  62. 62.

    Joey Maloney

    March 18, 2015 at 12:55 pm

    @Elie: How do Israelis vote?

    Very low-tech. In the voting booths are stacks of paper ballots. Each stack is embossed with a one, two, or three letter abbreviation that represents a particular party. (Designed for a population with lots of new immigrants who may be only marginally literate in Hebrew.) You pick your party, put the paper in an envelope, put the envelope in the ballot box. Endit.

    My guess is there was a late-evening surge for Likud after Bibi’s announcement that busloads of Arabs were coming to shove their way of life down our throats. (But note – it was strategic voting. Likud did better than expected, but it was at the expense not of the left, but of the smaller right-wing parties. The center and left parties performed almost exactly as predicted.)

  63. 63.

    beltane

    March 18, 2015 at 12:58 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: All that means is that Democrats want Netanyahu to return to the stale old script of supporting the two-state solution. It’s about uttering those magic words so they can tell the American people that Israel is working towards achieving peace and that we are honest brokers in the negotiations. Netanyahu keeps going off script, making it hard for our leaders to keep the charade going.

  64. 64.

    Elie

    March 18, 2015 at 12:58 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    Agreed and certainly not all at once. There have been years of support and relationships within the Democratic party that would have to change and its not likely that it would super fast…

    This presents a very big problem for a rational pragmatist Democrat running for President in 2016. They will have to defend a policy that looks to the US future while tiptoeing through current relationships with Israel — particularly the Jewish members of Congress. They are headed for a bumpy road.

    The larger issue of US commitments is complicated. I can’t imagine that Israel could completely take over our foreign policy even if a Republican is elected. Our interests just don’t line up that way.

    I think that we are in for a time of muddy policy as Democrats and I don’t think that is a bad thing. I think it is necessary to sort out what needs to happen and how to shore up the overall strategy for our foreign policy in prep for 2016. Hillary has to get off the fence real soon. I just don’t see any reason to delay but I can be schooled if someone knows better. Of course, the longer she is a candidate, the longer she is a target..

  65. 65.

    beltane

    March 18, 2015 at 1:01 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Anti-Arab sentiment in Israel permeates every aspect of the culture. Ironically, it is an almost exact parallel to the pervasive anti-semitism of the former Soviet Union.

  66. 66.

    Elie

    March 18, 2015 at 1:05 pm

    Jeez, just once, can we have something good happen for the forces of light? Honestly…this is very very depressing and I am so disappointed — not only in the results but how these a–holes got away with completely disrespecting our government and our president. sheesh

  67. 67.

    beltane

    March 18, 2015 at 1:05 pm

    Wow, Erick Erikson finds a nut:

    Right now, the GOP sees no hill worth dying on unless Sheldon Adelson or someone cuts them a check first. They see no cause worth fighting for unless they’ve mapped out their surrender strategy first.

    Frankly, I’m just tired of a party with a bunch of prostitutes in charge who’ll spread eagle for the highest bidder and run at the first hint of trouble.

    http://www.redstate.com/2015/03/18/this-is-what-it-comes-to/

  68. 68.

    Cervantes

    March 18, 2015 at 1:06 pm

    @Interrobang:

    The fact that Abu Mazen and the gang are sitting on billions of dollars while their people starve probably explains the Palestinian economic outlook.

    If your point is that the PA is corrupt, who could disagree? But it’s hardly the whole answer.

    The West Bank and Gaza are essentially blockaded and brutalized by Israeli military occupation. Elections, such as they have been, are (were) severely constrained not only logistically but also in who is allowed to run, who is allowed to campaign, who is allowed to win, who is allowed to hold office, and who is allowed to actually govern. For example, to what extent do you think Hamas is allowed to administer social programs in Gaza?

    And yes, there is corruption — and when possible, Israel initiates, aids, and abets it, because there are advantages to doing so. For example, when Arafat was still alive and the Israelis collected certain taxes on behalf of the Palestinian Authority, where do you think those funds (and more) were sent? To a bank account in Tel Aviv held in Arafat’s name and under his personal control. We’re talking about the diversion of hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars. Why? Because it was understood that Arafat would use the money not for the benefit of Palestinians generally but to buy “loyalty,” particularly in Gaza. This scheme of corruption suited the Israelis so well that they were perfectly happy to fund it — and, when convenient, criticize it as well.

    Your turn: Is there, in fact, a “unique situation of global antisemitism that puts [the state of Israel] in a vulnerable position economically”? And if so, what Israeli behavior in the Occupied Territories does this “unique situation of global antisemitism” justify?

  69. 69.

    brantl

    March 18, 2015 at 1:08 pm

    Who wants to bet that the poor are Arabs, not jews?

  70. 70.

    Elie

    March 18, 2015 at 1:08 pm

    @Joey Maloney:

    Seems very corruptible. Chits of papers with stamps. Like wow….No way could we think of substitute stamped papers inserted or counted instead, right?

    I dunno. What strikes me as odd is the variance from exit polling…

  71. 71.

    Cervantes

    March 18, 2015 at 1:09 pm

    @cmorenc:

    That’s precisely why so many Israelis are paranoid about Iran

    Would you say that so many Iranians are paranoid about Israel?

    And which of the two states possesses nuclear weapons?

  72. 72.

    beltane

    March 18, 2015 at 1:10 pm

    @brantl: Jews of Middle Eastern origin also come in for a fair share of housing, employment, and education discrimination in Israel.

  73. 73.

    Elie

    March 18, 2015 at 1:15 pm

    @beltane:

    Isn’t that the name of the plutocrat game? Erik used to be all aboard for that… Plutocracy has no values but perpetuating the distribution of wealth and power their way. That is all. Did he think that being a whore for money and power by the Sheldon Adelsons of the world would be different? The republicans would do anything for money. Sell out ANYTHING. And probably a majority of the sitting Democrats would as well. That is what we face.

  74. 74.

    Betty Cracker

    March 18, 2015 at 1:25 pm

    @beltane: Glenn Beck is also fed up with Republicans, and for the same reason: they’re listening to the moneybags more than the fanatics. If they’re serious, I strongly encourage them to form a breakaway Tea Party and Naderize 2016. But they’re not serious. This is just kabuki theater for the rubes. They’ll all turn out on election day for whatever hairball the GOP horks up.

  75. 75.

    beltane

    March 18, 2015 at 1:30 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Every right-wing party since the beginning of time has been beholden to the rich and powerful. It’s amusing to see them look in the mirror from time to time and wonder who that prostitute looking back at them is.

  76. 76.

    jibeaux

    March 18, 2015 at 1:32 pm

    @Lee:
    me neither. That is a real [citation needed] claim.

  77. 77.

    Kropadope

    March 18, 2015 at 1:45 pm

    You know, there’s plenty of nice, thoughtful people in Country X, but they get steamrolled by sociopathic propagandists promoting some form of Country X exceptionalism. Same shit, different country.

    Stealing this.

  78. 78.

    schrodinger's cat

    March 18, 2015 at 1:49 pm

    Sorry, wrong thread.

  79. 79.

    Cervantes

    March 18, 2015 at 1:50 pm

    @brantl:

    Who wants to bet that the poor are Arabs, not jews?

    They’re both, but disproportionately Palestinian/Arab.

    In Israel, 20% of all families, and 50% of Palestinian/Arab families, live below the poverty line. Roughly 20% of the population is Palestinian/Arab, so one can estimate (crudely) that half of all families in Israel living below the poverty line are Palestinian/Arab, the other half being Jewish.

    Also in Israel, of the forty communities with the highest unemployment rates, 90% are Palestinian/Arab — and this number ignores many small Bedouin settlements that are, literally, destitute.

    And yet, we should presume that Abu Mazin, King of the Occupied Territories, must be responsible for all these discrepancies in Israel as well. He’s powerfully corrupt, you see.

  80. 80.

    Keith G

    March 18, 2015 at 1:55 pm

    I had a brief episode of interest in Greek politics and I learned something: that even the liberal John Oliver is an asshole austerian and probably a racist (southern Europeans are the blahs of Europe).

    Here we go ladies and gentlemen. We now have a new front runner in the least thought out and most unsubstantiated comment of a front-page here at Balloon Juice, 2015 edition.

  81. 81.

    Chris

    March 18, 2015 at 1:56 pm

    @Cervantes:

    A hundred times this.

    The fact that Abu Mazen and the gang are sitting on billions of dollars while their people starve probably explains the Palestinian economic outlook.

    Yeah, this… sounds like a micro version of all these Westerners who complain “look at [insert third world country here]! My God, they’re so corrupt and dysfunctional! Why aren’t all these people doing something about it?” Ignored in this is the fact that there are more often than not Western governments and corporations up to their eyeballs in the corruption and that the James Carter theory of “every crime in the world has a Rich White Man taking his cut” usually applies in some form, even when the Rich White Man wasn’t the initiator. Which isn’t to say that the local elites and dictators aren’t corrupt sacks of crap, but they’re also just one aspect of the problem.

    In this case – even if we accept that the Palestinians’ troubles are entirely the fault of the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority, it’s a little disingenuous to pretend that this lets Israel off the hook. Especially because, since the rise of Hamas, Israel is increasingly inclined to treat Fatah as the Friendly Dictator that can get its hands dirty keeping things under control in a way that Israel can’t.

  82. 82.

    beltane

    March 18, 2015 at 1:56 pm

    @Cervantes: It’s interesting how pervasive Antisemitism keeps Jews down in their own state (but not in other countries for some reason), but the leader of the stateless Palestinians is somehow omnipotent. Are the Palestinians like the Mexicans, lazy yet overly hardworking, taking away everyone’s jobs?

  83. 83.

    WaterGirl

    March 18, 2015 at 2:13 pm

    Ugliness and hatred surely seems to be winning in the short run. But surely these statements from Bibi will be a turning point? (she asked hopefully)

  84. 84.

    El Caganer

    March 18, 2015 at 2:21 pm

    Special relationship won’t be ending any time soon. If there was any event that showed how comfortable the Israeli government is with offering the US a handful of gimme and a mouthful of STFU, it was Biden’s visit in 2010. Old clueless Joe got on the ground and immediately began blathering about how America is Israel’s BFF, unshakable bond, protector and defender, etc., etc. And then the Israeli government, which we had asked extra-nicely to chill with the settlement stuff, responded by announcing the coming construction of 1,000 (I think it was actually more, but I don’t recall) housing units in East Jerusalem. Our official response to Bibi & Co. taking a giant shit on our VP’s head? The Israeli position was ‘unhelpful.’ I’m not surprised that the President isn’t a fan of the Likud government, but I don’t think there’s much he can do about changing our policies there.

  85. 85.

    Mike E

    March 18, 2015 at 2:36 pm

    @WaterGirl: IMO politicians generally don’t know when to get out of their own way, and specifically for Bibi, in this case, his coalition is painting themselves into a corner…people knew he’s an asshole but he’s their asshole if catch my drift, but I believe he’s getting to the end of his effectiveness as a politician and their parliamentary system will handle it when the time comes.

  86. 86.

    cmorenc

    March 18, 2015 at 2:39 pm

    @Cervantes:

    @cmorenc:
    That’s precisely why so many Israelis are paranoid about Iran

    Would you say that so many Iranians are paranoid about Israel?

    And which of the two states possesses nuclear weapons?

    Don’t get me wrong; explanation of someone’s motive (Israel wrt Iran) is not at all the same as defending the justification, wisdom, or course of action taken by that party. Rather, the explanation is offered simply toward insight in what makes them tick. Nor should it be misunderstood as a self-sufficient one-dimensional explanation for Israel’s behavior. Part of Israel’s behavior is from legitimate concern for self-preservation, but part of it is also that the current dominant faction in Israeli politics are those fervently, uncompromisingly determined to permanently cement the entire West Bank as part of “Greater Israel” based on religious claims of a Biblical grant from God – and the latter factor greatly increases the long-term difficulties with self-preservation, especially with a key ally such as the U.S. not on-board with Israel’s territorial ambitions.

  87. 87.

    WaterGirl

    March 18, 2015 at 2:48 pm

    @Mike E: I hope you are right!

  88. 88.

    Tree With Water

    March 18, 2015 at 2:58 pm

    “The question is whether Democratic voters and politicians will continue to unconditionally support an Israeli state that has rejected negotiations and aspires to continue the occupation forever”.

    Agreed. This election certainly represents a marker in my thinking. It’s time to seat cutting ties with the state of Israel, in the same spirit as ties were once cut with South Africa. Yesterday the Israeli people declared in favor of perpetual repression, inevitable wars. So be it. I say leave them to themselves, to wage those battles on their own.

  89. 89.

    Adam L Silverman

    March 18, 2015 at 3:56 pm

    @Mike E: Mike E,

    Yep, the Arab Israelis have figured out that really coordinating is better than splitting the vote between multiple parties and party lists.

  90. 90.

    Adam L Silverman

    March 18, 2015 at 4:00 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Betty,

    I’d argue it’s worse. In order to form a coalition that gets to 61 seats in Knesset, Bibi will have to meet the smaller parties prices. The other issue is had Hertzog not cut a deal with Livni to form a unified party list bloc, he’d have done much worse. There’s really no coherent center-left or left alternative to Likud.

  91. 91.

    pseudonymous in nc

    March 18, 2015 at 4:10 pm

    @Mike E:

    I believe he’s getting to the end of his effectiveness as a politician and their parliamentary system will handle it when the time comes.

    At what cost? There was anonymous scuttlebutt from senior Likud pols when the final pre-election polls came through who were hoping for a post-Bibi party, i.e. a Likud that is not the Bibi Party. Given that preserving his own power is the only principle he has left, there’s plenty of damage that he can still do that can’t easily be corrected afterwards.

  92. 92.

    Elie

    March 18, 2015 at 4:12 pm

    @El Caganer:

    In the short term, no. And certainly not during Obama’s remaining tenure in office. The centrifugal forces of our other interests in the world will pull us away,however. We can’t afford that kind of burn that with Israel’s current policies, would entrap us in the ME forever. Yeah, there will be a muddy period and the right wing here will give all kinds of lipservice to it but the direction, which actually started a ways back before this administration, will be increasing divergence of interests. From my selfish point of view, I feel about Israel after this election, what I felt about South Africa and would support actions that would restrict their use of my taxes – read “sanctions”.

  93. 93.

    Elie

    March 18, 2015 at 4:16 pm

    @Mike E:

    I think that Israel’s parliamentary system is actually part of the problem. It empowers minority interests at the cost of the larger whole. It allows the retention of racist policy and the rule of bullies.

  94. 94.

    Cervantes

    March 18, 2015 at 4:19 pm

    @El Caganer:

    responded by announcing the coming construction of 1,000 (I think it was actually more, but I don’t recall) housing units in East Jerusalem

    Yes. On that day, 1,600 new (and illegal) units for ultra-orthodox Jews in East Jerusalem; plus just the day before, 112 new (and illegal) units in the West Bank.

    The Palestinians, including (or especially) the corrupt ones, responded by agreeing to resume negotiations with Israel regardless.

  95. 95.

    Cervantes

    March 18, 2015 at 4:20 pm

    @Elie:

    Feature, not bug.

  96. 96.

    beltane

    March 18, 2015 at 4:21 pm

    @Elie: That’s true to an extent, but it’s awfully difficult to slice and dice the Israeli electorate in such as way as to cobble together a non-racist majority. There is the very real possibility that the rule of racists and bullies accurately reflects the attitudes of the will of the people.

  97. 97.

    Elie

    March 18, 2015 at 4:32 pm

    @beltane:

    Gotcha there… wasn’t ready to think that, but it may be true….

  98. 98.

    Elie

    March 18, 2015 at 4:38 pm

    I will also say (and believe), that racism and bully values exist in every population and every people. These are brought out and exploited when people are afraid and when the entitled few mix tribalism with religion as a means to codify values of superiority. This most often happens as a diversion from something else. I’m not sure what and how what happened in Israel, but as many have said, it has made a significant transit from its leftist and moral value identity of the kibutz to this new way that is largely corporatist and fascist. I predict great suffering for them…

  99. 99.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 18, 2015 at 4:56 pm

    Well, DougJ, if you’re still reading, John Oliver showed his ass early on during his TDS tenure, acting really condescending towards an African ambassador from a former British colony and telling this lady from ACORN that she was on crack. Fuck that guy. He is a total ass with a punchable face. Not that punching him would satisfy because he would break like a twig.

    He likes to lecture about American racism while being your typical British racist. Lame. Played.

  100. 100.

    Cervantes

    March 18, 2015 at 5:09 pm

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Curious. Which ambassador? Was it this one?

  101. 101.

    Tree With Water

    March 18, 2015 at 5:17 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: Oliver is a brilliant guy obviously in love with this country. He’s a funny, insightful wise ass (and what higher praise?). I also think this country would be better off if more foreign satirists were permitted air time on American airwaves, to enable us to better see ourselves as others do. Lord knows it couldn’t hurt us any.

  102. 102.

    Goblue72

    March 18, 2015 at 5:19 pm

    @mainmata: Socially conservative, reactionary racist religionists sucking off the teat of secular, college educated coastal cosmopolitans while blaming poor Browns for everything. Where have I seen this before?

  103. 103.

    Keith G

    March 18, 2015 at 5:29 pm

    @Cervantes: God, I hope that was not what set AHH off. That was a perfectly constructed TDS bit. For anyone (Doug J, AHH etc.) to confuse good comedy with a personal manifesto is just plain sad.

    But, I have seen it happen ’round these parts, I guess.

  104. 104.

    El Caganer

    March 18, 2015 at 6:23 pm

    @Elie: I dunno. I’ve seen a couple articles about a boycott-divestment-sanctions movement, and as far as I can tell it’s not getting a lot of traction. If it ever does start to get any traction, you’ll be able to hear the screams of “Anti-semitism!” on the dark side of the moon.

  105. 105.

    Matt

    March 18, 2015 at 7:04 pm

    @mainmata:

    The haredi are the fastest growing part of the Israeli population but are largely self-removed from the secular educational system and even much of the economy and so they constitute the largest share of the impoverished (self-impoverished by the way) and those most dependent upon welfare. They are also by far the most reactionary politically and socially. As the Haredi become an ever larger part of Israel’s population, they will constitute a huge drag on the economy and the political system.

    They sound like teahadis but with yarmulkes instead of Confederate flag hats. FFS

  106. 106.

    Bill Arnold

    March 18, 2015 at 7:51 pm

    @El Caganer:

    …a boycott-divestment-sanctions movement, and as far as I can tell it’s not getting a lot of traction.

    It is getting enough traction to seriously worry American supporters of Israel/Zionists, and yesterday’s election, more specifically, the appearance of bigotry towards arab israeli citizens for electoral advantage by the winning party, and the unequivocal statements of opposition to a two-state solution, will boost the BDS movement. It is probably worth watching Israeli politics for a few weeks to see what governing coalition emerges.

  107. 107.

    Cervantes

    March 18, 2015 at 7:52 pm

    @Tree With Water:

    Have not watched him very much, but if what I have seen of him is representative of his work, then I could not agree with you more.

  108. 108.

    Chris

    March 19, 2015 at 3:17 am

    @Bill Arnold:

    It is getting enough traction to seriously worry American supporters of Israel/Zionists

    American supporters of Israel/Zionists are always reacting like the sky is falling and like every voice that so much as asks if it’s okay to run aid supplies to Gaza now is the sound of a nuclear bomb going off in Jerusalem. It’s what they do.

  109. 109.

    ellennellee

    March 19, 2015 at 9:43 am

    a shame you let oliver’s ignorance about yani rule your world on that; he’s become quite my hero, fwiw. fascinating to watch him navigate these treacherous waters. not knowing how little information you obtained on greece, i’ll leave it at that, except to say that the clip exposes the first time i’ve seen oliver get something so utterly and completely wrong.

    i mean, who makes the rule that the finance minister has to look like a refugee from mad men? you did see how many university faculties he’s served on with his phd in econ, right? where did you see evidence of racism? greece is, after all, in southern europe, right? may i suggest viewing some of his lectures, available online. he’s extremely sharp.

    as for israel, the only very good thing to come of this result is that the pressure on a clearly desperate bibi forced him to state openly his disdain for the 2 state solution, and ipso facto, the peace process. which, obama is evidently mulling, rearranges our approach to israel altogether. a very good thing, along with forcing many gung-ho american jews to recalibrate their support for that state, not likely good for bibi in the future.

  110. 110.

    Fred Fnord

    March 19, 2015 at 1:24 pm

    @Lee:

    Heck he missed some bit of comedy, the greek finance minister worked as an in house economist for a game company (Valve).

    Well… he was a consultant hired by Valve to study and analyze their in-house economy and how it interacts with the economy of the real world, partly because he is interested in game theory and that tends to be much more easily studied when you can play with the underlying rules of the interaction. He’s a real economist with some very serious publications under his belt.

    He says that his experiences with Valve have helped him understand how the Eurozone is working. And so far he sounds very sensible. Or at least roughly a billion times more sensible than Germany. Which isn’t hard, come to think of it.

  111. 111.

    heckblazer

    March 19, 2015 at 9:23 pm

    @Joey Maloney: This seems like a good place to note that Netanyahu once worked for Mitt Romney at Boston Consulting Group. They’re still friends I hear.

  112. 112.

    gorram

    March 19, 2015 at 10:26 pm

    @Cervantes: Um, isn’t it pretty generally believed that Iran doesn’t have nuclear weapons (the concern is over future capabilities) and that Israel probably did buy nukes from South Africa during the Apartheid days?

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