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You are here: Home / Civil Rights / LGBTQ Rights / Gay Rights are Human Rights / What Are the Criteria?

What Are the Criteria?

by John Cole|  March 26, 20155:12 pm| 145 Comments

This post is in: Gay Rights are Human Rights, Assholes, Sociopaths

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As Betty mentioned, this afternoon, Indiana Governor Mike Pence slunk into the shadows with a bunch of like-minded bigots, and in a close private ceremony signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, effectively allowing businesses to discriminate again anyone, but in particular, gays and lesbians.

Two quick questions:

1.) What criteria will business owners be using to determine who is and who is not gay? Ordering a latte? Saying please? Not liking President Bush? Or do you just have to be suspiciously gay-like to impinge enough on someone’s religious freedom to warrant being denied service.

2.) As the Klan also operated under the auspices of Christianity, what is to keep businesses from kicking out or denying service to blacks, and when confronted, just say “Oh, we didn’t kick them out because they were black, we kicked them out because they were gay.”

And people get upset when we call these Christianist right wing nutjobs the America Taliban. Fucking bigots.

And if this is all too depressing to think about, just someone send me a photoshop of Mike Pence in a Klan hood. I think it will come in handy.

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Reader Interactions

145Comments

  1. 1.

    Pogonip

    March 26, 2015 at 5:17 pm

    Which President Bush?

  2. 2.

    D58826

    March 26, 2015 at 5:18 pm

    Would love to see the reaction when somebody puts up a sign ‘we don’t serve white southern Baptists’

  3. 3.

    Karmus

    March 26, 2015 at 5:18 pm

    I know I’m a petty, pain-in-the-ass pedant, but, um–isn’t “criteria” plural?

    I’m happy to be set straight!

  4. 4.

    lahru

    March 26, 2015 at 5:19 pm

    Republicans are very good at dividing Americans. Better they fight each other than…………

  5. 5.

    Karmus

    March 26, 2015 at 5:19 pm

    Also, too, to the substance of the piece: hateful clowns are hateful.

    Apologies to actual clowns.

  6. 6.

    Cervantes

    March 26, 2015 at 5:21 pm

    What are the criteria?

  7. 7.

    Keith G

    March 26, 2015 at 5:22 pm

    Who cares what Indiana does? I grew up not that far from the Ohio-Indiana line, on the Ohio side thank God, and I never cared much about what happened in Indiana.

    That said, I do wonder what happens when the Supreme Court affirms the right of gay people to have equal access to marriage. It seems to me that once the right of access is cemented in place, it’s not that far of a stretch to argue against any other discriminations that now seems to have some traction in redneck/asshole states. Indiana’s law will quite soon I think be overturned at the federal level.

  8. 8.

    scav

    March 26, 2015 at 5:22 pm

    INtolerance
    INcivility
    INdiana

  9. 9.

    D58826

    March 26, 2015 at 5:23 pm

    iF enough organizations decide to move their conventions/meetings etc out of Indania then the law will be quickly repealed. If the Goopers love one thing more than they hate the gays its money

    From Huffington

    The National Collegiate Athletic Association expressed concern Thursday with a new “religious freedom” law in Indiana that could open the door to legalized discrimination against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender individuals.

    “The NCAA national office and our members are deeply committed to providing an inclusive environment for all our events,” said NCAA President Mark Emmert. “We are especially concerned about how this legislation could affect our student-athletes and employees.”

    The Final Four games in the March Madness men’s basketball tournament will be held in Indianapolis next week, putting the issue front and center for the NCAA. Emmert said he will “work diligently” to make sure that visitors and athletes at the event will not be “impacted negatively.”

    “Moving forward, we intend to closely examine the implications of this bill and how it might affect future events as well as our workforce,” he added.

    Indiana’s new Religious Freedom Restoration Act will allow any individual or corporation to cite its religious beliefs as a defense when sued by a private party. Many opponents of the legislation, which included business leaders, argued that it may open the door to widespread discrimination. Business owners who don’t want to serve same-sex couples, for example, may now have legal protections to discriminate.

    Indiana Gov. Mike Pence (R) signed the legislation Thursday in a private ceremony closed to the public and the press. He denied that the law authorizes discrimination and argued that “many people of faith feel their religious liberty is under attack by government action.”

    Jason Collins, the first openly gay NBA player, also said he was concerned about traveling to the state next week for the Final Four games.

    Business leaders and organizers of major events set to be held in the state were cautioning Pence against backing the legislation in recent weeks. Leaders of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), which plans to hold its 6,000-person General Assembly in the state in 2017, said they were reconsidering because of the legislation. Organizers of Gen Con, which has been called the largest gaming convention in the country, threatened to stop holding the event in Indiana.

    And Marc Benioff, CEO of the tech giant Salesforce, said Thursday that the company would now be “canceling all programs that require our customers/employees to travel to Indiana to face discrimination.”

  10. 10.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 5:24 pm

    Remember Lt Gov “I Am Not A Lesbian”?

  11. 11.

    Greg

    March 26, 2015 at 5:28 pm

    I wish I owned a business in Indiana. i would instruct my employees to turn away anyone wearing a cross or a WWJD bracelet or similar with the explanation that it would be against the owner’s strongly held religious beliefs to serve them.

  12. 12.

    CONGRATULATIONS!

    March 26, 2015 at 5:28 pm

    And if this is all too depressing to think about, just someone send me a photoshop of Mike Pence in a Klan hood.

    I’m sure there’s a real one floating around somewhere if you dig hard enough.

  13. 13.

    gf120581

    March 26, 2015 at 5:29 pm

    The economic impact of this will be felt pretty quick, as we’ve already got several businesses and conventions either canceling or thinking of it. And really, it’ll fall to pieces once the first person who’s stupid enough to try and use it to throw a gay person out (or who they think is a gay person). I wouldn’t be shocked if someone tried to provoke it on purpose.

    Stupid of Pence to sign it, but then, he’s essentially a more articulate Dan Quayle.

  14. 14.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 5:30 pm

    @Keith G: I wouldn’t bet on that. GOP true believers hate VRA and CRA in part because it makes it easier for those people to vote against them. Rand Paul was openly advocating for doing away for the law that makes it illegal to discriminate on the basis of color in public accommodations.

    African Americans fought for years and years through losing battles for access to public transportation from Reconstruction through the 1960s, for one thing.

    Jews were barred from buying homes in certain neighborhoods or staying in hotels.

    There are definitely groups waiting in the wings right now who would start barring home sales, public accommodation, etcet to “outsiders” if that section of CRA went away.

    There are wingnut Haredis who would implement sex segregation on publicly funded buses tomorrow if they could get away with it.

    There are evil restaurant and retail workers TO THIS DAY turning away African American customers even though CRA is the law of the land.

    So no, don’t bet on it.

  15. 15.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 5:30 pm

    Motels used to routinely refuse to let rooms to “unrelated adults”.

    Look out.

  16. 16.

    Tenar Darell

    March 26, 2015 at 5:30 pm

    I’m also waiting for the epic trolling of the Satanic Temple opening a florist shop and a bakery. That’ll be fun!

  17. 17.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 5:33 pm

    @gf120581: I hope ACLU is on speed dial.

    Seems like a religious discrimination claim is not only likely, but would make for a nice, juicy trial.

    What I mean is that wingers hate adherents of other religions or heretics or dissidents even more than they hate “sinners”.

    If I were a provocateur, going about wearing pentacles might draw just the flies I’m looking for.

  18. 18.

    Mike J

    March 26, 2015 at 5:35 pm

    “Save our Christian America“

  19. 19.

    Keith G

    March 26, 2015 at 5:35 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: Well I’m trying to imagine an over/under for the life span of this particular law and others like it and I’m thinking to round it up to roughly a decade. Although, I would not be surprised if it were a bit shorter.

    Edit. ..the more I think about it, the shorter I think it will be.

  20. 20.

    kilgore trout

    March 26, 2015 at 5:36 pm

    rejoice amigo, this type of asshattery wakes up the both side do it fools….
    2016 will be Goldwaterish…

  21. 21.

    JimBucksbury

    March 26, 2015 at 5:36 pm

    It would be great to see some scamp out there refuse Mike Pence himself service for being gay. I don’t believe he is gay but if it’s now up to everyone to decide who they serve and who they don’t, that’s how the cookie crumbles. Let him plead heterosexuality.

  22. 22.

    JGabriel

    March 26, 2015 at 5:37 pm

    Also, in what I wish was just a metaphor, the country seems to be falling apart around us today: a bridge collapsed in Texas and a building collapsed in Manhattan.

  23. 23.

    the Conster

    March 26, 2015 at 5:37 pm

    If I were a local activist I’d hand out pink triangles to everyone I could to have an “I am Spartacus gay” revolt. Because it’s revolting.

  24. 24.

    JGabriel

    March 26, 2015 at 5:40 pm

    Another Holocene Human:

    If I were a provocateur, going about wearing pentacles might draw just the flies I’m looking for.

    Probably cheaper and quicker to just improvise a Muslim-y looking head cloth and wait for the wingnuts to attack.

  25. 25.

    fuckwit

    March 26, 2015 at 5:42 pm

    Clowns are neat, clowns are fun, clowns are loved by everyone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yX-pgiHTI8

  26. 26.

    Keith G

    March 26, 2015 at 5:43 pm

    @JGabriel: As I recall from the local news down here, the bridge just didn’t fall down, it was struck by a semi and parts of the bridge then littered the road. This part of your metaphor is itself a bit crumbly.

  27. 27.

    Alex

    March 26, 2015 at 5:48 pm

    You probably wouldn’t have to pretend you were discriminating against black people for being gay. It would be much simpler to say serving black people is against your corporation’s religion.

  28. 28.

    BethanyAnne

    March 26, 2015 at 5:48 pm

    This makes Indiana the 19th state to pass one of these bills.

  29. 29.

    TriassicSands

    March 26, 2015 at 5:48 pm

    @scav:

    Indeed!

  30. 30.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 26, 2015 at 5:48 pm

    @JGabriel: The ground floor of that building held a very small and very busy Belgian French-fry shop. I’ve eaten there. All I could think of was a gas explosion in a building full of boiling oil.

    I read later that the average age of gas mains in NYC is 56 years.

  31. 31.

    SatanicPanic

    March 26, 2015 at 5:50 pm

    Or do you just have to be suspiciously gay-like to impinge enough on someone’s religious freedom to warrant being denied service

    yes. And just think of all the other types of people you can keep out because they look gay.

    ETA_ duh you said that already. My brain is fried. nevermind.

  32. 32.

    CONGRATULATIONS!

    March 26, 2015 at 5:54 pm

    Probably cheaper and quicker to just improvise a Muslim-y looking head cloth and wait for the wingnuts to attack.

    @JGabriel: He wants to get denied service, not get his freakin’ head blown off.

    You couldn’t pay me enough money to don “Muslim” garb (the only Muslims I’ve ever personally met all wore three-piece suits, but whatever, trying to make a point here) and walk down the streets of ANY major US city. Odds of sustaining what would be at best a very unpleasant injury seem to me to be far too high.

  33. 33.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 26, 2015 at 5:58 pm

    “Saying please” is a sign of weakness and adherence to Political Correctness.

    It’s a sure sign that someone is gay.

  34. 34.

    danielx

    March 26, 2015 at 6:00 pm

    2.) As the Klan also operated under the auspices of Christianity, what is to keep businesses from kicking out or denying service to blacks, and when confronted, just say “Oh, we didn’t kick them out because they were black, we kicked them out because they were gay.”

    or….
    we didn’t kick them out because they were Jews, we kicked them out because they were gay.
    or….
    we didn’t kick them out because they were Catholics, we kicked them out because they were gay.
    or….
    we didn’t kick them out because they were Indians, we kicked them out because they were gay.
    or….
    etc.

  35. 35.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 6:00 pm

    @JimBucksbury: How do you prove it, anyway?

    Unfalsifiable.

    (Unless you define sexual orientation very narrowly.)

  36. 36.

    Cervantes

    March 26, 2015 at 6:01 pm

    @Gin & Tonic:

    The ground floor of that building held a very small and very busy Belgian French-fry shop.

    “POMMES FRITES: authentic belgian fries”

    Speaking of war, there’s one that hasn’t abated.

  37. 37.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 6:04 pm

    @JGabriel: Dude, exaggerate much?

    Bridge didn’t collapse, some construction beams were hit by a truck. Tractor trailers hit bridges all the time. You can thank GPS, low wages for truck drivers and states that allow truck driver companies to issue their own CDLs instead of state administered tests. What could go wrong?

    Con Ed on scene in Manhattan–again? The fuck. Somehow nobody there is ever accountable for anything. Looking at the pic, that building is old, suspect is gas lines. They didn’t always make it better in the good old days.

  38. 38.

    Grumpy Code Monkey

    March 26, 2015 at 6:05 pm

    @JGabriel: For fuck’s sake, an oversized tractor trailer slammed into the crossbeam of a bridge that was still under construction.

    That’s most emphatically not an example of crumbling infrastructure.

  39. 39.

    bemused

    March 26, 2015 at 6:05 pm

    So what happens if a business just assumes someone is gay who is not and discriminates. Would the straight person then have legal recourse against the business?

  40. 40.

    Betty Cracker

    March 26, 2015 at 6:05 pm

    Is Sooner okay? Just heard another tornado went thru his area.

  41. 41.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 6:06 pm

    @JGabriel: I didn’t think of that … I was just thinking of the stunts by OK Satanists recently. They tend to be ex Evangelicals with a bone to pick with their former cult.

  42. 42.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 6:07 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: NYC infrastructure is so old, and nobody wants to pay to replace it.

    Reminds me of when one of Boston’s ancient WOODEN water mains burst and flooded the archives in the basement of the Boston Public Library. Total loss. Horrible.

  43. 43.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 6:08 pm

    @Betty Cracker: What is it with Moore, OK? Is it at the end of some T-Storm valley where all the worst storms end up funneled?

  44. 44.

    the Conster

    March 26, 2015 at 6:08 pm

    @bemused:

    There was no thinking this through, at all. All it is is a signifier- like flashing a gang sign.

  45. 45.

    Warren Terra

    March 26, 2015 at 6:09 pm

    What criteria will business owners be using to determine who is and who is not gay?

    I believe the Turkish military solved this problem some time ago.. As I recall, they instrument your nether regions and then monitor your responses as they show you gay and straight porn, often while surrounded by doctors and senior military officers.

    Seems a bit much to go through just to rent a car, but what are the alternatives?

  46. 46.

    Violet

    March 26, 2015 at 6:10 pm

    Will a business refuse to serve Mike Pence because he offends their religious sensibilities?

  47. 47.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 26, 2015 at 6:12 pm

    @Cervantes: Yeah, and last time I was there it seemed to be staffed by Filipinos.

  48. 48.

    fuckwit

    March 26, 2015 at 6:14 pm

    @BethanyAnne: Wait… what? This isn’t a new thing? What are the other 18? I’d guess Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, South Carolina, but what are they really?

  49. 49.

    rk

    March 26, 2015 at 6:15 pm

    I don’t understand this bill at all. If a business can discriminate against a gay person on the basis religious beliefs, then why not allow all sorts of discrimination based on religion. Why can’t a muslim refuse to serve a jewish person or a christian kick out a muslim. What’s so special about gays (if you know what I mean). Religions have all sorts of restrictions. In fact why not allow discrimination against adulterers, or divorcees or disobedient children. How is this even legal or possible? Can you make randomly stupid laws without consequences? I seriously don’t get this.

  50. 50.

    Gin & Tonic

    March 26, 2015 at 6:18 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: nobody wants to pay to replace it.

    NYC has more foresight than most cities. They’ve been working on the third water tunnel for 45 years now, and it should be completed by roughly 2020. The whole water supply system there is a marvel of civil engineering (also the subject of one of the most complex diving jobs ever, as far as I know.)

  51. 51.

    bemused

    March 26, 2015 at 6:22 pm

    @the Conster:

    That’s the conservative modus operandi. They never think things through and the chaos they create is always someone else’s fault.

  52. 52.

    Mr. Twister

    March 26, 2015 at 6:24 pm

    In the 1920s Indiana was the state with the largest Klan membership. Their descendants have spoken.

  53. 53.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 6:24 pm

    @Warren Terra: And I know same sex female couples where one of the two is heterosexual. Yes, it is stable. Both of them have OMG awful stuff in their past.

    The point of the law is to discriminate against same sex couples (although of course it really opens the door to Hobby Lobby style fuckery of all sorts). And same sex couples (how defined? what about intersex or trans people?) aren’t all gay!

  54. 54.

    Frankensteinbeck

    March 26, 2015 at 6:24 pm

    As ever, conservatives are people angry that their freedom to hurt others has been taken away.

  55. 55.

    trollhattan

    March 26, 2015 at 6:25 pm

    @rk:
    Well duh, you might be born Muslim or Jewish, but you choose to be ghey.

    -Doctrine Republican

  56. 56.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 6:26 pm

    @rk: Forget about picking up Plan B in person and they’ll pass a law next year to make it illegal to order online….

  57. 57.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 6:27 pm

    @Gin & Tonic: NYC is pretty foreseeing on these sorts of issues but it seems to be a very American blind spot to jump on shiny to equipment and forget about maintenance.

  58. 58.

    Jared Plotkin

    March 26, 2015 at 6:28 pm

    There’s only one solution to this madness: Boycott Indiana!

    https://suite.io/jared-plotkin/6ncw2yr

  59. 59.

    Frankensteinbeck

    March 26, 2015 at 6:30 pm

    Oh, and…

    1) Whatever the proprietor feels like. They’re immune from being sued, after all. They don’t have to justify their decision.

    2) Nothing. The similarity is not an accident. They want their (literally, they believe) God-given right to abuse anyone their prejudices tell them to abuse. It wasn’t just the Klan using arguments like these. ‘Religious freedom’ was a common rallying cry against desegregation.

  60. 60.

    WereBear

    March 26, 2015 at 6:31 pm

    @kilgore trout: 2016 will be Goldwaterish…

    I was far too young to enjoy the first one. May the FSM grant me another!

  61. 61.

    jl

    March 26, 2015 at 6:33 pm

    So, if the baker or florist is not suspicious at time of order, and deliver to the service and see something (anything?) they don’t like, they can smash the cake or flowers and sue?

    This will be interesting.

    I also see on front page story at TPM today that Pence was brilliant enough to say on a radio show that there wasn’t any big controversy or problem in Indiana, but the law is all good just to make things clear and preserve freedoms.

    Edit: which I interpret to mean Pence basically said, ‘yeah, nobody is really having problems with this issue, but why not pander to bigots?”

    Pence has been mentioned as possible for GOP pres primary in 2016. I hope he runs. Fifty GOPers on stage (at first debate), or fight!

  62. 62.

    Archon

    March 26, 2015 at 6:33 pm

    @gf120581:

    On a macro level this is bad for Indiana, we shouldn’t pretend however that individual shops wouldn’t benefit economically for being known as the company that stands up for “religious liberty” or whatever term right-wingers use now to justify bigotry.

  63. 63.

    vhh

    March 26, 2015 at 6:35 pm

    The only good thing is that there will be an ACLU lawsuit that will bring this law down as unconstitutional, and it will cost Indiana heaps of $$ in legal fees.

  64. 64.

    NotMax

    March 26, 2015 at 6:37 pm

    As one definition of slunk is “moving in a sinuous, alluring or provocative manner,” had to chuckle at the word choice.

    @Gin & Tonic

    True that.

    One thing which the opening of the newest tunnel will allow is for the shutting off of Brobdingnagian valves in an older tunnel in order to perform maintenance and upgrading. Not done previously as engineers feared that if those long untouched valves were closed they might not be able to be opened again.

    Even now, once in a great while street work in NYC unearths a colonial-era wooden pipe.

  65. 65.

    Cervantes

    March 26, 2015 at 6:39 pm

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Reminds me of when one of Boston’s ancient WOODEN water mains burst and flooded the archives in the basement of the Boston Public Library. Total loss. Horrible.

    I remember that: the summer of ’98. What burst was a hundred-year-old 42-inch cast-iron pipe. Thousands of books and other materials had to be crated all the way down to Texas for restoration.

    The wood you’re thinking of must be the wooden pilings on which the Library (or part of it) sits. Remember, it’s all land reclaimed long ago from the river and the swamps.

  66. 66.

    Frankensteinbeck

    March 26, 2015 at 6:40 pm

    @jl:

    preserve freedoms

    Yes. Their freedom to discriminate. That is a freedom. It takes away from other people’s freedoms, but the government really is stopping them from doing whatever their religion tells them to.

  67. 67.

    NotMax

    March 26, 2015 at 6:40 pm

    Waiting for the first plumber (or similar tradesperson) refuse to perform work in a church on the basis that it offends him.

  68. 68.

    jl

    March 26, 2015 at 6:46 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: Sure reveals Pence to be a gigantic ass.

    I am curious whether his admission that there are no serious problems over the issue will harm the upcoming court challenge?

    Kind of a like some state executive running some sketchy voter suppression ID law saying, ‘Yeah, that in-person voter fraud thing almost never happens and doesn’t threaten integrity of any elections we have around here, but we just wanted to do it ’cause important to have minimal government meddling and BS irrelevant derp whatever, and we wanted to make things clear.” Seems like that would hurt their case too, so that is why they never say that, but spin nonsense and fantasy unhinged from any experience or data.

  69. 69.

    joel hanes

    March 26, 2015 at 6:51 pm

    @Another Holocene Human:

    What is it with Moore, OK?

    God is trying to get the attention of Sen. Inhofe so they can have a quiet word about climate.
    So far it’s not working.

  70. 70.

    JPL

    March 26, 2015 at 6:53 pm

    GA debated the law yesterday and insisted that it was not meant to discriminate. A democratic member added an amendment stating that businesses could not discriminate. The amendment was voted down. It might be time to buy LGBT tees to stand in solidarity. I wouldn’t mind as much if the businesses were forced to label their bigotry with a sign on their door.

  71. 71.

    Howard Beale IV

    March 26, 2015 at 6:54 pm

    If I were other states, I’d be pitching Lilly to relocate their Corporate Headquarters to their state where such ass-backwardy stuff doesn’t happen-like in, say Minnesota…

  72. 72.

    wasabi gasp

    March 26, 2015 at 6:56 pm

    This is great news for unintended consequences!

  73. 73.

    Mike J

    March 26, 2015 at 6:58 pm

    @rk:

    I don’t understand this bill at all. If a business can discriminate against a gay person on the basis religious beliefs, then why not allow all sorts of discrimination based on religion. Why can’t a muslim refuse to serve a jewish person or a christian kick out a muslim.

    The point is to do away with the concept of public accommodation altogether. In the 60s business owners said, “this is my business, it’s private property, I shouldn’t have to conduct business with anyone. ”
    http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SFaQPYpZL.jpg

    That’s exactly what they want to get back to.

  74. 74.

    tazj

    March 26, 2015 at 6:59 pm

    The thing that I just don’t buy, and what some evangelical Christian business people want to sell you, is that by providing their services to gay couples, they’re giving their tacit approval to the “gay lifestyle” and this violates a Christian’s religious liberty. If you bake a cake or arrange flowers you’re providing a service that’s it.

    You don’t have to have this great relationship with your florist or baker to conduct the business for your wedding. I met with both of them twice for my wedding (they never met my husband), maybe a couple phone calls and that’s it. Most people never see them on their wedding day as it’s usually a delivery driver to your house for the flowers and your cake is set up at the reception before you get there.

  75. 75.

    Capri

    March 26, 2015 at 7:00 pm

    @BethanyAnne: That’s the good news about Indiana. Unlike many of the earlier states, there’s enough opposition in Indiana to at least put up a stink about it.

    Indiana isn’t exactly going purple, but it is getting slightly less red. This move is going to help push it a little further left.

  76. 76.

    Howard Beale IV

    March 26, 2015 at 7:02 pm

    @Mike J: Then how much different is that line of argument when applied to The Black Lives Matter protestors at the Mall Of America?

  77. 77.

    Violet

    March 26, 2015 at 7:02 pm

    I haven’t kept up with these kinds of laws. Do other states have them or is Indiana the first to pass one? If other states have them are they having the unintended consequences that people are hoping this one has in Indiana?

  78. 78.

    Calouste

    March 26, 2015 at 7:03 pm

    Just reading that Salesforce, who have a pretty big presence in Indianapolis, have announced that they won’t hold any further customer or employee events that would require people to travel to Indiana (presumably they will still hold events for people that live in Indiana).

  79. 79.

    Baud

    March 26, 2015 at 7:04 pm

    Um…Is Pence outright lying with this statement?

    In fact, it does not even apply to disputes between private parties unless government action is involved.

    Government action is not involved with wedding cakes and florists. What’s going on?

  80. 80.

    Roger Moore

    March 26, 2015 at 7:06 pm

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Reminds me of when one of Boston’s ancient WOODEN water mains burst and flooded the archives in the basement of the Boston Public Library

    Wood is actually a fine material to make water pipes from. The neighborhood where I grew up had a wooden water main until quite recently, and when it finally failed, it was the wrought iron hoop around the wooden staves that failed, not the wood. The reason those wooden water mains are still there is because they’ve been trouble-free for a very long time.

  81. 81.

    JPL

    March 26, 2015 at 7:07 pm

    @Baud: He’s lying.

  82. 82.

    Baud

    March 26, 2015 at 7:10 pm

    @JPL:

    I pulled up the bill, and I’m not sure if he is lying. It says it only applies to “governmental entities.”

    Very confused.

  83. 83.

    JPL

    March 26, 2015 at 7:13 pm

    The GA bill might not get a vote this year. A republican wanted to add an non discrimination clause today and Josh McKoon, a Republican state senator from Columbus, said that adding a non-discrimination clause would gut his bill. haha.. He introduced the bill and said that it wasn’t about discrimination.

  84. 84.

    Alex

    March 26, 2015 at 7:14 pm

    @Baud: The government action in question is the enforcement of nondiscrimination laws for public accommodations like stores that sell to the general public. Before, it was not legal to put up a “No Jews or dogs” sign in your bakery, but it is looking fairly legal now as long as you have a religious reason to hate Jews. Luckily, no one claims to have one of those. Oh, wait…

  85. 85.

    Quaker in a Basement

    March 26, 2015 at 7:14 pm

    I do NOT want to be in an Indianapolis bar on “Prove You’re Not Gay” night.

  86. 86.

    Baud

    March 26, 2015 at 7:17 pm

    @Alex:

    Maybe that’s how it’ll be interpreted by Indiana courts, but looking at the bill, it’s not apparent to me that’s what it says. And even if the government can’t enforce a “No Jews” sign, couldn’t the customer bring a private lawsuit against the store owner?

  87. 87.

    Alex

    March 26, 2015 at 7:17 pm

    @rk: The people supporting this bill are pretty sure they are going to be the ones doing the discriminating. It might get interesting the first time a Muslim refuses to serve a Christian, or a Protestant refuses to serve a Catholic.

  88. 88.

    delk

    March 26, 2015 at 7:17 pm

    Criteria?

    I guess if they looked closely they could see that my husband and I have matching wedding bands.

    Or if they know about bear culture, because my husband and I are big bearded dudes.

  89. 89.

    Violet

    March 26, 2015 at 7:18 pm

    @Baud: Isn’t the government involved when a business gets a license?

  90. 90.

    trollhattan

    March 26, 2015 at 7:20 pm

    @Quaker in a Basement:
    Wait, will the Colt cheerleaders be there?

  91. 91.

    D58826

    March 26, 2015 at 7:20 pm

    The really frightening thing is that if this gets to SCOTUS the Jim Crow lite wing will probably uphold the law. After all if Hobby Lobby can have a religious rights then why can’t Betty’s bakery.

  92. 92.

    Alex

    March 26, 2015 at 7:22 pm

    @Baud: Unfortunately, you don’t have any real cause of action to sue unless you are in a protected class. Stores are allowed to refuse service to people on any grounds not prohibited by law. If you don’t have a right to public accommodation under the state non-discrimination law, you don’t have legal recourse. I live in Michigan. If I’m refused service at a restaurant or hotel for being gay, there is nothing I could do except complain to the press.

  93. 93.

    Baud

    March 26, 2015 at 7:24 pm

    @Violet:

    Sure, but no one was ever going to be denied a license because of their religious beliefs. The question is whether this law permits private businesses to discriminate in practice. If this bill allows that, it does it in a very obscure way. (I’m too tired to examine it line by line.)

  94. 94.

    Violet

    March 26, 2015 at 7:24 pm

    From the law itself:

    Sec. 5. As used in this chapter, “exercise of religion” includes any exercise of religion, whether or not compelled by, or central to, a system of religious belief.

    I think that’s the part that’s going to bite them in the ass. Anyone can claim anything is part of their religion, whatever that religion is, even if it’s one they invent on the spot.

  95. 95.

    sharl

    March 26, 2015 at 7:25 pm

    Ah, these Indiana posts make me nostalgic for one of Indianapolis’ finest, the late Doghouse Riley – Douglas Michael Case IRL – and I was just perusing Edroso’s tribute and the comments from when we had just learned of his passing in July 2013.

    I’m not sure he would have skewered Pence as well as he did Pence’s predecessor Mitch Daniels, aka The Bantam Menace, who was the inspiration for one of my all-time favorite tags by Doghouse, “Midwestern States Governed By Surly Megalomaniacs With Napoleonic Complexes.” But it would have been fun to see him have a go at it.

    You are not forgotten, Doghouse/Mr. Case.

  96. 96.

    JPL

    March 26, 2015 at 7:27 pm

    Erick Ericsson had a post at 4 today.. link If there is a troll among us that can post to that site, please post the word Sucker. The bill is tabled. hahahahhahahahaha

  97. 97.

    Roger Moore

    March 26, 2015 at 7:28 pm

    @tazj:

    The thing that I just don’t buy, and what some evangelical Christian business people want to sell you, is that by providing their services to gay couples, they’re giving their tacit approval to the “gay lifestyle” and this violates a Christian’s religious liberty.

    It’s not a serious argument; it’s a pretext for discrimination. They’re hoping for one of two things. Either they’ll get their way and be able to discriminate, or they’ll be turned down and be able to play the poor persecuted victim. For people who desperately want to be persecuted- and remember that Jesus said it was righteous to be persecuted for your faith- it’s a win either way. I honestly think they pick fights that they know they’ll lose so they can feel righteously persecuted.

  98. 98.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 7:28 pm

    @Roger Moore: I’m not sure I believe you, especially when you’re all “it’s great except for the point of failure”. You know what impressed me? Ostia’s lead water pipes. They’re actually fine for transporting cold hard water because the inside gets calcified pretty fast.

    The Romans* actually poisoned themselves with adulterated wine. True story.

    *-mostly the elites, actually

    eta: and I almost forgot about the face bleaching treatments

  99. 99.

    PaulW

    March 26, 2015 at 7:28 pm

    Indianapolis has bars? I thought that was still a dry state…

  100. 100.

    Baud

    March 26, 2015 at 7:29 pm

    @Alex:

    But if gays were never protected under Indiana law, then this bill wouldn’t do anything. They would still be unprotected. Unless gays were protected only through government enforcement, then this bill might prevent enforcement.

    Perhaps this act is designed to prevent local governments from enacting nondiscrimination laws?

  101. 101.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 7:31 pm

    I’m probably being too glib about lead pipes. The water where I grew up is soft and a lot of people I knew had water that tested positive for lead, so …

  102. 102.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 7:34 pm

    @Mike J: I read somewhere that the term “pub” comes from “public house” because under English common law they had to serve all comers without discrimination. The claim was all of this apartheid and discrimination in public accommodations (inns and pubs) is a pernicious innovation, not ancient custom.

    I assume that would be separate from the issue of banning troublemakers and thieves. (Around here they call the fuzz to issue an order of trespass, and those can be appealed.)

  103. 103.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 7:36 pm

    @Baud: Doesn’t it also prohibit the customer from suing?

    In other states there have been breach of contract suits that were successful. Not a lawyer, so don’t ask me what that means.

  104. 104.

    craigie

    March 26, 2015 at 7:37 pm

    What you need to do is go shopping in Indiana wearing a shirt that says “I might be gay”

    That should make for some interesting conversations…

  105. 105.

    Baud

    March 26, 2015 at 7:37 pm

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Not that I can see in the law.

  106. 106.

    D58826

    March 26, 2015 at 7:38 pm

    @Violet: So if you believe in throwing virgins in volcanoes then your good to go? Assuming you can find a volcano in Indiana or even harder still a virgin.

  107. 107.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 7:40 pm

    @Howard Beale IV: Because 1st amendment guarantees don’t apply on private property. If I want to hold a rally on private property, the owner can say no. If it’s on public property and they let other groups hold rallies there, then if I go through the process they can’t just single me out and bar me because they don’t like my politics.

    Although it’s true that malls were so popular during white flight because the mall ownership could more easily harass and intimidate the “wrong” kind of crowd out of the mall. Suburbs opposed bus lines for the same reason. Yeah, I lived near a place that had infamous redlining and tantrums over buses and a mall that “went to seed” when somebody starting lending the “minorities” money for cars and they started shopping there. Bunch of miserable people and their town was always a dump, more so because of their stupidity.

  108. 108.

    raven

    March 26, 2015 at 7:41 pm

    Don’t forget this one:

    The decision by California’s attorney general, Kamala Harris, to go to court to try to stop a controversial proposed ballot initiative that calls for the legalized execution of gay people may be a mix of political pressure from legislators and campaign savvy as she continues her bid for the US Senate, according to those familiar with the situation.

  109. 109.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 7:41 pm

    Barring political speech in malls is a long, fun filled tradition.

    Maybe giving over our public square to a private mall operator wasn’t such a great idea.

    All hail our corporate overlords. Verily, they are wise. Hail. Hail.

  110. 110.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 7:43 pm

    @raven: Maybe it should be easier to register to vote in a Deep South state than to put some dumb shit on the ballot in California that not even 0.1% of the citizens support.

    Something for CA GOP to ponder while Harris grandstands on the issue.

  111. 111.

    Another Holocene Human

    March 26, 2015 at 7:45 pm

    @Baud: You can still sue over “No Jews” under federal law, which is why this bullshit is so silly.

    Of course these same assholes want the CRA to go away too.

  112. 112.

    Germy Shoemangler

    March 26, 2015 at 7:45 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: Wasn’t Disneyland designed originally to keep “the poors” out because there was no way to get there other than highway full of caucasian station wagon families?

  113. 113.

    Baud

    March 26, 2015 at 7:45 pm

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Easiest platform for any Democrat ever.

  114. 114.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 26, 2015 at 7:46 pm

    @Mike J:

    The point is to do away with the concept of public accommodation altogether. In the 60s business owners said, “this is my business, it’s private property, I shouldn’t have to conduct business with anyone. ”

    @Mike J:

    Wow, that image brought back some memories! Charlie Leb had restaurants all over Atlanta. My father was with the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra for years and after dress rehearsals a bunch of the musicians would almost always go to a nearby Leb’s for a late meal, and would often take the guest artist along. He used to tell the story of the time Harry Belafonte was guest artist. Charlie himself greeted them at the door, asked Belafonte for an autograph, then refused him service. So typical back then. (And before anyone tries to light into my dad for patronizing a restaurant that discriminated against blacks, do please bear in mind that in Atlanta in the 1950s and early ’60s there really wasn’t much choice.)

  115. 115.

    raven

    March 26, 2015 at 7:50 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: In this silent WSB newsfilm clip from May 20, 1963, white and African American students demonstrate against segregation at Leb’s Restaurant and later S & W Cafeteria in Atlanta, Georgia

    http://crdl.usg.edu/cgi/crdl?action=retrieve;rset=002;recno=1;format=_video

  116. 116.

    jon

    March 26, 2015 at 7:52 pm

    @Warren Terra:

    The science for that has an interesting history. The combination of what is known and what it means leads to all sorts of ethical messes.

  117. 117.

    trollhattan

    March 26, 2015 at 7:54 pm

    In light of this all, I was surprised by:

    The governor of Indiana has declared a public health emergency after an HIV outbreak “reached epidemic proportions” in part of the state. Scott County, a poor area where needle-sharing by drug users is common, has seen 79 new cases in recent weeks – up from an annual average of five.

    Governor Mike Pence has authorised health officials to implement a needle exchange programme – a remedy he has opposed in the past.

    HIV is the virus that causes Aids.”Scott County is facing an epidemic of HIV, but this is not a Scott County problem; this is an Indiana problem,” the governor said. “With additional state resources and new tools provided by this emergency declaration, I am confident that together we will stop this HIV outbreak in its tracks.”

    The outbreak was first identified in late January. Since then, officials have diagnosed 79 people with the life-threatening virus – up from 26 cases just one month ago. State officials said the governor’s emergency declaration provides additional resources for officials to coordinate a response to the “outbreak of HIV that has reached epidemic proportions”.

    State epidemiologist Pam Pontones said almost all of the cases originated from illegal drug users sharing syringes.

    A large majority of the victims had shared a needle with an infected person while injecting Opana, a prescription painkiller.
    –BBC

    Will IV drug users continue to have access to bakeries?

  118. 118.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 26, 2015 at 7:54 pm

    @craigie:

    What you need to do is go shopping in Indiana wearing a shirt that says “I might be gay”

    Isn’t there a Schrödinger possibility here?

  119. 119.

    brendancalling

    March 26, 2015 at 7:54 pm

    I’d like to see the Nation of Islam open a business in Indianapolis (btw, I’m now refering to Indiana as Talibandiana and you should too) and refuse to serve white people.@jon:

  120. 120.

    ms_canadada

    March 26, 2015 at 8:00 pm

    @the Conster: My thoughts, exactly.

    Read ‘The Purple Children’ by Edith Pargeter.

  121. 121.

    Alex

    March 26, 2015 at 8:01 pm

    @Baud: Yes, to exempt them from any local LGBT-inclusive nondiscrimination ordinances, and from any future state ones. But it looks like it will apply to any group you want to discriminate against, even those currently covered by nondiscrimination laws. That’s a lot of collateral damage. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/20/indiana-gay-rights_n_6910746.html

  122. 122.

    Roger Moore

    March 26, 2015 at 8:06 pm

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Maybe it should be easier to register to vote in a Deep South state than to put some dumb shit on the ballot in California that not even 0.1% of the citizens support.

    In fairness the “Sodomite Suppression Act” is not on the ballot yet. They still have to collect several hundred thousand signatures from registered voters. Kamala Harris is trying to stop them from getting to the point of even being allowed to collect the signatures, probably because the law is clearly unconstitutional on its face.

  123. 123.

    Baud

    March 26, 2015 at 8:07 pm

    @Alex:

    Indiana’s bill says that anyone who feels their exercise of religious freedom has been “burdened” may use that as a legal claim or defense, regardless of whether the government is a party in the proceeding.

    OK, I didn’t see that in the legislation, but I didn’t look that carefully. If that’s accurate, I better understamd the outrage.

  124. 124.

    Roger Moore

    March 26, 2015 at 8:09 pm

    @Alex:

    That’s a lot of collateral damage.

    Who says it’s collateral?

  125. 125.

    ms_canadada

    March 26, 2015 at 8:11 pm

    @danielx:
    Or, @Warren Terra: Clockwork Orange.

  126. 126.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    March 26, 2015 at 8:27 pm

    @D58826:

    It’s probably more logical to say that Betty’s Bakery has religious rights because it’s probably a sole proprietorship or, at best, a partnership, not a corporation.

  127. 127.

    boatboy_srq

    March 26, 2015 at 8:29 pm

    Is it just me, or are Red states just doing their damnedest to turn themselves into impoverished backwaters? Considering how many businesses seem prepared to take their business elsewhere (Cummins protested the Indiana law, which I found pleasantly shocking), there’ll be precious little left besides wingnut bakeries and wingnut florists there before too much longer.

  128. 128.

    Manyakitty

    March 26, 2015 at 8:33 pm

    Can I apply that to (not) repaying my student loans? They’ll outlast me, and the bible says that debts must be forgiven after seven years. (Deut. 15:1)

  129. 129.

    Villago Delenda Est

    March 26, 2015 at 8:48 pm

    @Violet: Which is, of course, the entire point of Pastafarianism.

  130. 130.

    Gladgrace

    March 26, 2015 at 9:18 pm

    This is what I thought of when I read about the law -I learned about Green Books when I read The Warmth of Other Suns by Isabel Wilkerson. The Green Books were travel guides, directories for Black travellers during Jim Crow. Maybe its time for directories for LGBTQA consumers who, for whatever random reason, still want to do business in Indiana.
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/2013/02/11/the_negro_motorist_green_book_the_mid_century_guide_for_african_american.html

  131. 131.

    trnc

    March 26, 2015 at 10:10 pm

    @JimBucksbury:
    Nice thought, but I doubt the governor has to walk into many shops.

  132. 132.

    Jamey

    March 26, 2015 at 10:43 pm

    Follow the money: Pence must have a money man in Northrop-Grumman’s Gaydar division.

  133. 133.

    Gex

    March 26, 2015 at 10:46 pm

    How long after Kate’s death do I have to be celibate before I can safely shop in Indiana? Does the statute say? Because as I understand it, shopping isn’t a sin per se. So unless gay people are having sex in the business place, they aren’t violating any religious beliefs. And I’m pretty sure they already had laws allowing them to have people who are fucking in the aisles removed.

  134. 134.

    Cain

    March 27, 2015 at 12:15 am

    @Greg:

    I wish I owned a business in Indiana. i would instruct my employees to turn away anyone wearing a cross or a WWJD bracelet or similar with the explanation that it would be against the owner’s strongly held religious beliefs to serve them.

    Imagine a jew turning away christians because they eat pork.

  135. 135.

    Vanya

    March 27, 2015 at 4:11 am

    Ordering a latte?

    Can I discriminate against people on the basis of being a pedantic snob? I would love to serve people who order “lattes” just a glass of milk. Coffee with steamed milk is a caffe latte.

  136. 136.

    Vanya

    March 27, 2015 at 4:13 am

    @boatboy_srq: If you hate modernity and want religion to be the center of your life, turning your town into an impoverished provincial backwater might be the goal. Seems to be working out ok for the Taliban.

  137. 137.

    Matt McIrvin

    March 27, 2015 at 8:46 am

    @Alex: This is why those “Satanist” trolls perform such a valuable public service, swooping in to put up shrines to Lucifer or demand that their Satanist beliefs be accommodated whenever some state passes a law giving religion special treatment. Unfortunately, people don’t seem to learn.

  138. 138.

    boatboy_srq

    March 27, 2015 at 9:19 am

    @Vanya: Oh, it’s definitely a goal for some. But achieving that goal shouldn’t prevent the rest of us from remaining in the 21st Century. The Reichwing seems determined to keep not only their own constituents but the entire country in that philosophical backwater; oddly, they seem to think they can do that while careening ahead technologically.

  139. 139.

    Ryan

    March 27, 2015 at 9:37 am

    Hey, are business liable in court if they cast aspersions on… no that is not it. If they falsely assume someone is gay and refuse to serve?

  140. 140.

    revcheeks

    March 27, 2015 at 5:28 pm

    http://imgur.com/R7b4d39

  141. 141.

    Alan C

    March 27, 2015 at 5:40 pm

    Yes, the singular is “criterion” and the plural is “criteria.”

  142. 142.

    Mary

    March 27, 2015 at 9:29 pm

    The Montana House (large R majority) late this afternoon rejected the I Don’t Serve Your Kind Bill on a tie vote. Such good news I had to share it with you. Great, passionate and intelligent arguments from diverse Ds.

  143. 143.

    Jeff B.

    March 28, 2015 at 7:17 pm

    @Germy Shoemangler:

    I remember a TV show years ago that mentioned that the bridges to a public park on the south shore of Long Island in the ’40s or so (something Robert Moses was behind, in any event) were designed so that buses couldn’t get under them; you had to have a car (or at least know someone who had one). Not necessarily racially discriminatory, but given conditions, that’s the way it shakes out. When I think about it, I guess it discriminates against most Manhattanites, too.

Comments are closed.

Trackbacks

  1. Finally Establishing the Legal Right to Do Wrong | Just Above Sunset says:
    March 27, 2015 at 3:32 am

    […] And John Cole has two quick questions: […]

  2. How Would They Know? | Bark Bark Woof Woof says:
    March 27, 2015 at 7:47 am

    […] In light of Indiana now codifying anti-gay discrimination into state law, the question arises: how would the businesses that seek to use the law know who’s gay so they can refuse them service?  Via Balloon Juice: […]

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