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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Because of wow. / Monsters of the Deep (Open Thread)

Monsters of the Deep (Open Thread)

by Betty Cracker|  April 10, 201511:03 am| 125 Comments

This post is in: Because of wow., Domestic Politics, Open Threads

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I grew up in a manatee-infested Confederate backwater in Florida. The mister is from Buffalo, New York. Years ago when we were courting, I took him to my home town to meet my father. I also borrowed a boat so the future-mister could meet the slow-moving, seaweed-eating, two-foot-long-turd-cranking aquatic local celebrities we used to call “sea cows.”

It was summer, so most of the manatees had migrated from the river, but a few hang around all year. I slowly motor-boated to a likely manatee haunt, spotted one and killed the engine a ways off so as not to disturb it (or run it over, a tragically too commonplace event in that area). The future-mister donned a mask and snorkel so he could swim over near it and check it out from a respectful distance (even back then, we were non-harassers).

As he swam about 30 yards or so off the bow, I shouted instructions to guide him to the creature’s proximity. I could tell exactly when it loomed into his view because the future-mister performed an abrupt U-turn and practically walked on water back to the boat, his eyes as big as saucers behind the mask.

When I teased him for fearing a perfectly sweet, utterly harmless manatee, he said it was “as big as a mini-van,” which was an exaggeration. But compared to the reaction of the woman in the video below, the future-mister’s post-manatee encounter demeanor was a model of courage and calm:

That poor manatee was probably thinking, “What the fucking FUCK, lady?”

Open thread.

[H/T: Jezebel]
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Reader Interactions

125Comments

  1. 1.

    Jane2

    April 10, 2015 at 11:08 am

    I reacted in much the same way when a southern-sized cockroach crawled on to my shoulder in a local restaurant somewhere in Virginia. As I loudly wrestled it to the ground, not another diner so much as gave me (or it) a glance. Stoic.

  2. 2.

    Pogonip

    April 10, 2015 at 11:12 am

    There’s a historical novel called “The Persian Boy,” about Alexander the Great’s slave and boy toy, Bagoas. At one point in their travels, Bagoas notices more cockroaches than he’s ever seen; when I read that, I thought, “Wow! I never knew Alexander the Great invaded Florida!”

  3. 3.

    D58826

    April 10, 2015 at 11:14 am

    So Hillary is announcing that she is running for President. I’m shocked shocked and a bit bored

  4. 4.

    Snarki, child of Loki

    April 10, 2015 at 11:15 am

    Basic Instructions

  5. 5.

    cmorenc

    April 10, 2015 at 11:19 am

    My younger daughter (then about 11) had a similar reaction to a curious manta ray down in the Bahamas while we were snorkeling near a coral reef. The ray was HUGE, with at least a 5-foot wingspan, and my daughter quickly scrambled to the purported safety of a nearby boat, who kindly picked her up. Upon returning to shore to the snorkel-outfitter, he informed us that that particular manta ray had long hung a bout the vicinity, and was frequently inclined to curiously approach snorklers to investigate them (sometimes folks fed it with ray-treats), but it was harmless and had never been known to be threateningly aggressive. Just a curious ray partly motivated by the potential to mooch snacks off people.

  6. 6.

    Geeno

    April 10, 2015 at 11:20 am

    I must confess, I’ve had a similar experience to the Mister, but mine was with a school of barracuda, and to be fair, those do have lots and lots of pointy teeth.

  7. 7.

    EconWatcher

    April 10, 2015 at 11:20 am

    @D58826:

    This is going to be 2004 all over again. I couldn’t stand Kerry (although I’ve softened a bit on the old boy recently), but I was forced to give more money and time than I ever had because the alternative was so hideous. Come to think about it, I’m even less enthusiastic about HRC than I was about Kerry. Yuck.

  8. 8.

    EconWatcher

    April 10, 2015 at 11:20 am

    @EconWatcher: Sorry, HRC

  9. 9.

    Bobby B.

    April 10, 2015 at 11:21 am

    Manatee steak and mangrove salad with melty cheese!

  10. 10.

    Betty Cracker

    April 10, 2015 at 11:22 am

    @Geeno: It’s perfectly reasonable to be afraid of barracudas. They don’t attack people often, but when they do, it can get pretty ugly.

  11. 11.

    Pogonip

    April 10, 2015 at 11:24 am

    If you’re ever in Cincinnati, Ohio, go to their zoo; they have a great manatee exhibit. If they’d stop breeding white tigers I’d give them a donation every so often. I know running a zoo ain’t cheap and white tigers are a gold (diamond?) mine, but it’s come to the point that breeding them is animal cruelty.

  12. 12.

    Bubblegum Tate

    April 10, 2015 at 11:28 am

    I’m kind of shocked our esteemed bloghost hasn’t posted anything about Troy Polamalu’s retirement.

  13. 13.

    Eric U.

    April 10, 2015 at 11:29 am

    @EconWatcher: I really liked Kerry. He did fairly well considering the nearly brain-dead bias towards incumbents that we have in this country.

  14. 14.

    Elizabelle

    April 10, 2015 at 11:31 am

    I knew this was going to be a B. Cracker thread.

    The Science Channel on cable has “Prophets of Science Fiction” hourlong episodes on.

    Isaac Asimov now; next up are HG Wells, Mary Shelley, Philip K Dick and George Lucas.

  15. 15.

    Elizabelle

    April 10, 2015 at 11:33 am

    @EconWatcher: Kerry was my least favorite candidate in recent years too. He bores the shit out of me, much as his heart is in the right place.

    We get a choice between actively scary (the GOP candidates) and uninspiring and compromised (HRC).

    This after 6 years to date of one of the best presidents in US history.

  16. 16.

    CONGRATULATIONS!

    April 10, 2015 at 11:34 am

    Jeez, lady, a manatee is a freshwater cow that can move at about the speed a person can crawl. They’re about as dangerous as a puppy.

  17. 17.

    Joseph Nobles

    April 10, 2015 at 11:35 am

    I just… she’s frightened for her life but does not drop the selfie stick: she doesn’t even lose herself in the center of the focus?

    The fear does seem genuine, though utterly unmotivated by the manatee. But if I was actually afraid of life and limb, that selfie stick and camera would be at the bottom of the ocean.

  18. 18.

    raven

    April 10, 2015 at 11:37 am

    Ever hear

    Pretty in Buffalo?

    L.A. tried to tell me I wasn’t very pretty
    And they don’t give a prize to girls who are witty
    So fuck you in the face
    You need to get out of this place
    To the flyover states
    And remember what people look like

  19. 19.

    Elizabelle

    April 10, 2015 at 11:37 am

    She’s got a future in cheap slasher films.

    Or shark snack in Jaws8: Into the Lakes

  20. 20.

    germy shoemangler

    April 10, 2015 at 11:37 am

    HESPERIA, Calif. — A news video shows California sheriff’s deputies tracking down a man fleeing on horseback and then punching and kicking him dozens of times when he’s on the ground.

    The San Bernardino County Sheriff’s office ordered an investigation into the beating Thursday.

    “The video surrounding this arrest is disturbing,” San Bernardino County Sheriff-Coroner John McMahon said.

    A sheriff’s statement said Francis Pusok, 30, fled from deputies early in the afternoon as they tried to serve a search warrant in an identity-theft investigation. He eventually abandoned a car in the Hesperia area and stole a horse, but was tracked down by deputies.

    KNBC-TV helicopter footage shows the man dressed in bright red clothing falling from the horse as a deputy runs up and uses a stun gun on him. The sheriff’s department statement said the stun gun was ineffective.

    The man falls face-down with his arms and legs outstretched and the video shows two deputies appearing to come up and kick him in the head and crotch. He puts his hands behind his back as they continue to pound him. Other deputies arrive moments later.

    KNBC-TV said up to 13 deputies eventually surrounded the man, and some of them kicked, hit and punched him dozens of times over a two-minute period.

  21. 21.

    Ridnik Chrome

    April 10, 2015 at 11:39 am

    @EconWatcher: I usually hate it when people talk about “America” in the abstract, but if America is stupid/lazy enough to elect another Bush (because I do think he will end up being the Republican nominee), then America (meaning every last one of us) will have failed, and we will deserve every damn thing we get.

  22. 22.

    raven

    April 10, 2015 at 11:39 am

    And if that ain’t good enough

    The Loophole by Garfunkel and Oates

  23. 23.

    Peale

    April 10, 2015 at 11:41 am

    Honestly, there has to be a better way to run a democracy than having an election cycle start 60 days after the new congress is seated.

  24. 24.

    EconWatcher

    April 10, 2015 at 11:41 am

    @Elizabelle:

    Agree on all counts. I have been grateful for Obama every single day. I’m 49, and I had stopped believing that America could ever elect someone I truly believe in and trust. Still not quite sure how it happened, but I do not believe it will happen again in my lifetime.

    One hope I have: Obama has broken so many molds in his lifetime (community organizer to U.S. President? I’m pretty sure my high school guidance counselor didn’t mention that as a possible career trajectory.) Maybe he can also rewrite the standard for what an ex-President can achieve.

  25. 25.

    Gin & Tonic

    April 10, 2015 at 11:42 am

    @germy shoemangler: I saw that video this morning, unfortunately. Made me sick to my stomach. Looked like a bunch of gangsters stomping a guy in a movie.

  26. 26.

    Marmot

    April 10, 2015 at 11:45 am

    @Elizabelle: Get set for disappointment. Ridley Scott had something to do with those shows — directed? — so you’d think they’d be good. You’d think.

  27. 27.

    germy shoemangler

    April 10, 2015 at 11:48 am

    http://boingboing.net/2015/04/06/sea-lion-drags-fisherman-from.html

    Sea lion drags fisherman from boat and drags him to the bottom of the bay

  28. 28.

    germy shoemangler

    April 10, 2015 at 11:50 am

    @Gin & Tonic: mandatory testing for steroids. All police and prison guards.

  29. 29.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 10, 2015 at 11:51 am

    I don’t think I’d react quite like this to a live manatee right in front of me, but I might react like the mister. I’m wondering about this girl’s friends or family who put this up in to the public sphere. I often feel that l, like the above mentioned John Kerry, was born a generation or two too late. My lawn, O! my lawn, it is the noble martyr of trodding youths.

    @Ridnik Chrome: Steve Benen has a post up, drawing on Daniel Drezner, arguing that Bill Kristol has reestablished control of the GOP foreign policy. I think that’s certainly true of the elected/Beltway segments of the party–Tom Cotton is gibbering about “toughness” and Marco Rubio’s aggressive stupidity of a couple weeks ago (Obama’s coddling ISIS to suck up to Iran) has the reek of Kristol’s tutoring– I’m not sure about the average voter, even Republican. Ed Kilgore has a parallel post speculating that Lindsey Graham’s ‘candidacy’ is an excuse to have a neocon up on stage calling Rand Paul weak on terror, which makes more sense than any other explanation. I could see where that could backfire on him, or, with a little help from ISIS porn, it could work. Just fucking heartbreaking that we, as a country, might well put that crew back in charge.

  30. 30.

    Betty Cracker

    April 10, 2015 at 11:51 am

    @Bubblegum Tate: Wow, I had no idea Polamalu was nuttier than a squirrel turd! (I mean for the Christian numerology thing, not for retiring.) ‘Twas a helluva safety, though!

    @EconWatcher: For me, the only truly exciting thing about the prospect of HRC as the nominee is the opportunity to break the gender barrier. It’s not everything, but it’s not nothing either.

    That said, I’m going to try to keep an open mind about her. I wasn’t impressed with her 2008 campaign, but people can learn and grow.

  31. 31.

    Steve the Cat

    April 10, 2015 at 11:54 am

    @Ridnik Chrome: Amen. I am so sick of the “I’m bored” political adolescents and toddlers here. Bet they’ll all be screaming bloody murder when Bush III finishes fucking up the SC.

  32. 32.

    germy shoemangler

    April 10, 2015 at 11:55 am

    Onion headline:

    “Gay Conversion Therapists Claim Most Patients Fully Straight By The Time They Commit Suicide”

  33. 33.

    Elizabelle

    April 10, 2015 at 11:58 am

    @Betty Cracker: Yeah. The gender barrier, and I think the GOP misjudges how many women — and men who love them — are sick about the legislative assault on contraception and gay kids and relatives. Even the need for separation of church and state.

    Not everyone in the GOP is a millionaire or Christianist evangelical.

    Hillary did herself a lot of good with a competent turn as Sec of State. She and Bill need to remember not to turn on President Obama, who is popular, actually, despite what the press would tell you (just not among radical Republicans and corporate titans who live and die by tax policy); that is the lesson I hope everyone will draw from Al Gore running in the other direction from Bill Clinton. Joe Lieberman at his side.

  34. 34.

    Elizabelle

    April 10, 2015 at 12:00 pm

    @Steve the Cat: We can be bored and still turn out to fight like hell to keep the GOP out of the White House.

  35. 35.

    Calouste

    April 10, 2015 at 12:00 pm

    @germy shoemangler:

    13 deputies

    13? For arresting a guy who ran away from being served a search warrant?

    Seems like San Bernardino County has a few too many cops hanging around with nothing to do.

  36. 36.

    Mike J

    April 10, 2015 at 12:01 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    Wow, I had no idea Polamalu was nuttier than a squirrel turd! (I mean for the Christian numerology thing, not for retiring.) ‘Twas a helluva safety, though!

    Isn’t his wife a republican bigwig?

  37. 37.

    Elizabelle

    April 10, 2015 at 12:03 pm

    @Ridnik Chrome: I disagree about the deserving part.

    People did not deserve to lose their economic security in 2008 and beyond; they don’t deserve a jobless recovery.

    It’s appalling that Kansas still re-elected Brownback; I hope that bites them in the ass hard enough to learn something, but the country as a whole does not deserve a Supreme Court from the 1870s and non-white people getting discriminated against when they exercise their right to vote.

    Problem is, Democratic-leaning voters are not one issue. The GOP cleans up with votes from those weasels, over and over again.

  38. 38.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 10, 2015 at 12:04 pm

    @Elizabelle: I saw Bubba say something the other day about not being as engaged in politics because he’s not mad at anybody anymore. To which I respond with a hearty “Hah!” I think that like McCain, Bubba will never forgive the Usurper for taking his third term.

    In my mind’s eye, I see Hillary with the Angel of her better nature, the hippie chick who gave that famous speech at her Wellesley graduation on one shoulder, and a mini-Bubba on the other whispering in her ear that “he took our Precious, he did!”. Or maybe that Gollum looks more like Carville. If she has people around her who can counterbalance the Bubba-Carville-Rendell-Lanny Davis voices, I think she’ll do a lot better this time.

  39. 39.

    EconWatcher

    April 10, 2015 at 12:06 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    Fundamentally, I think she’s a very smart policy person, and not really a politician with any of the necessary gifts for winning really tough elections (the ability to rouse crowds, charm the camera, frame issues for maximum appeal, deftly deflect confrontational questions, etc.) I have not seen her display talent for any of these things. I’m sorry, but making Rick Lazio look like a schmuck doesn’t count. He did it to himself.

    Congressional staffs and the upper levels of federal bureaucracies are full of such people. They will never be on a national ticket, and should not be. She will almost certainly head a national ticket because she is married to and supported by Bill Clinton. I would like to break the gender barrier with someone like Gillibrand. But we are where we are.

  40. 40.

    Mike J

    April 10, 2015 at 12:06 pm

    Bad news continues for the congressman from Downton Abbey:

    The Marshall County Board wants former U.S. Rep. Aaron Schock to pay the $76,000 in unbudgeted county costs for special elections to fill the 18th Congressional District seat he abandoned.

    The board voted unanimously Thursday to send the Peoria Republican a letter requesting the reimbursement. Schock resigned last month following controversy over his use of taxpayer and campaign funds.

  41. 41.

    the Conster

    April 10, 2015 at 12:09 pm

    Then there was this horrific big dog eaten by bigger alligator story. You can have Florida. I’ll take the shitty weather in Boston because I can let the cat out without that fucking horror.

  42. 42.

    J

    April 10, 2015 at 12:10 pm

    OT except for a Florida connection, but I just learned, via Digby’s blog, about this wonderful Floridian, Arnold Abbott, and I thought other Balloon Juice readers would share my interest.

    http://www.nationofchange.org/2014/11/09/police-arrest-90-year-old-two-pastors-feeding-homeless-people/

    This story is from last year. Betty do you know anything more about Mr. Abbott?

  43. 43.

    Elizabelle

    April 10, 2015 at 12:11 pm

    @the Conster: Thank you sincerely for alerting us to what’s in that link. I shall pass, but thank you.

  44. 44.

    jacel

    April 10, 2015 at 12:15 pm

    Here’s a great manatee moment in comic book and song.
    http://s146.photobucket.com/user/morecoffee1/media/SamMaxManatee.jpg.html

  45. 45.

    Gin & Tonic

    April 10, 2015 at 12:15 pm

    @germy shoemangler: I may have mentioned this, but a long time ago Mrs G&T worked in a health-care capacity in a large urban correctional setting. She always said she felt more comfortable around the inmates than around the guards.

  46. 46.

    Betty Cracker

    April 10, 2015 at 12:21 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I have a similar view of the factions warring for HRC’s political soul, but I’d never visualized them in such entertaining fashion! I may have to Photoshop or draw the image you conjured for future use…with attribution, of course.

    @the Conster: That was Ala-gottdamn-bama, but yeah, you gotta watch out for gators here too. I never let my dogs (or kids!) roam near the water until I’ve checked it out and am around to supervise for that very reason.

    @J: I heard something about people getting in trouble for feeding the homeless awhile back, but I didn’t know about Mr. Abbott. He sounds like a good and courageous man!

  47. 47.

    Ridnik Chrome

    April 10, 2015 at 12:22 pm

    @Elizabelle: We have the Congress we have in part because Democratic voters couldn’t be bothered to come out and vote in the mid-term elections. But I agree, the bigger problem by far is Republican voters…

  48. 48.

    J R in WV

    April 10, 2015 at 12:26 pm

    @Bubblegum Tate:

    Regarding John and Troy, it is so hard to post/type while you’re crying!

  49. 49.

    Ridnik Chrome

    April 10, 2015 at 12:27 pm

    And speaking of manatees, here’s Future of the Left.

    EDIT: Tied with A Place To Bury Strangers for my favorite band name of the past decade…

  50. 50.

    kindness

    April 10, 2015 at 12:35 pm

    Betty, just post that that girl in the video is a northern tourist and it’d all explain everything.

    I would think swimming along side a manatee would be cool but that is just me.

  51. 51.

    gene108

    April 10, 2015 at 12:38 pm

    @EconWatcher:

    she is married to and supported by Bill Clinton. I would like to break the gender barrier with someone like Gillibrand.

    I’ve posted this before, but I think outside of truly liberal circles, a lot of folks are not open minded about a husband putting his career on hold to help is wife’s career goals.

    Gillibrand’s husband is a successful venture capitalist (who is also British by birth and upbringing, which may matter to some folks), who can keep his career going while she is in the Senate. He would have to wind down his work, like Ted Cruz’s wife, if Gillibrand were to run for President.

    I think Bill Clinton, because he’s reached the pinnacle of his profession and is retired, will not face the same resistance to being the first First Husband.

    Male ego’s can accept him spending 4-8 years promoting pet projects, while letting his wife do the work.

    I remember the amount of crap Hillary took, in 1992, because she had a professional career outside of just being a political wife. I know 23 years is a long time, but I don’t think attitudes have opened up to that extent that everyone will be O.K. with men putting their career’s on hold for their wife’s professional goals.

  52. 52.

    srv

    April 10, 2015 at 12:40 pm

    Reasoning Matt Welch asks why the Coles and Greenwalds of the Left are hypocrites:

    Under the vague banner of “net neutrality”—once technical jargon, now a surprisingly effective political slogan—federal regulators unceremoniously shoved the Internet out of the less-regulated “information service” category and reclassified it as a “telecommunications service,” thus subjecting it to oversight under the far more hands-on Title II of the Telecommunications Act.
    …
    Why did the same Netizens (as they are no longer called) who rally against government in the name of privacy turn around and rally in favor of it when it comes to data prioritization arrangements?

  53. 53.

    Randy P

    April 10, 2015 at 12:40 pm

    @Elizabelle: Does “prophets” mean “actual science predicted by science fiction writers?”

    Is Arthur C. Clarke on that list? Inventor of the concepts of “geosynchronous communication satellite” and “space elevator” among other things?

  54. 54.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    April 10, 2015 at 12:40 pm

    I’ve only seen manatees at Sea World, but it was memorable:

    A big group of people were standing in front of the tank that gives you an underwater view of the animals, watching two of the manatees slowly drift towards each other.

    One viewer: “I think that one’s going to nurse.”
    Pause.
    Other viewer: “That’s not a breast.”

    Cue parents lunging for the exit with their hands over their children’s eyes to shield them from seeing any hot manatee-on-manatee action right there in front of them.

  55. 55.

    D58826

    April 10, 2015 at 12:42 pm

    @germy shoemangler:

    KNBC-TV helicopter footage shows the man dressed in bright red clothing falling from the horse as a deputy runs up and uses a stun gun on him. The sheriff’s department statement said the stun gun was ineffective.

    Every notice how often in these cases the stun gun was ‘ineffective’. If that is the case why waste the money on them. Just get the cops a more expensive gun with more bullets in the magazine.

  56. 56.

    chopper

    April 10, 2015 at 12:43 pm

    I slowly motor-boated

    mm-hm.

  57. 57.

    JustRuss

    April 10, 2015 at 12:44 pm

    I had the pee scared out of me by a manatee once. Was kneeling on a riverbank, watching a stream of thousands of minnows swim by, when there was suddenly a HUGE MASS right in front of me, it was like the Star Destroyer from the opening of Star Wars. I may or may not have shrieked like a little girl.

    In the woman’s defense, I swam with a dolphin once, and when you’re out in deep water and you suddenly see this huge gray shape right under you, it’s pretty freaky.

  58. 58.

    Cermet

    April 10, 2015 at 12:46 pm

    Been chased off a beach by a sea lion (those teeth!!! and those guys are fast on land!) and met and played with a few Manatee in the waters near crystal river or springs(?) (they came to me, I never would bother them.) Ran into a Barracuda once (appeared to be 6 foot long or so but that could have been fear on my part) on a Reef but it was in a good mood and let the accident pass without doing more than giving me a warning. Faced a Moray Eel that same day that was of a size that I could only think belongs in a horror movie – if not for the other divers who both saw it and were size comparisons, I never would have believed it was even possible to exist that big (10 feet of the monster was out of the reef and still, that appeared to only be half of it, at best!) There be strange breasts in the Sea and frankly, glad I only visit.

  59. 59.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    April 10, 2015 at 12:48 pm

    @D58826:

    I haven’t seen the video, but do they Taser him and he falls off the horse, or does he fall off the horse on his own? As someone who has fallen off horses before, they’ve got a pretty good-sized window to jump in there and cuff him even without the Taser — you’re already pretty stunned after falling 4 or 5 feet onto the ground.

    But, of course, they were pissed off that he tried to escape, so he had to be punished regardless of whether or not he was injured in the fall from the horse.

  60. 60.

    Elizabelle

    April 10, 2015 at 12:49 pm

    @Randy P: Pretty sure they did Arthur C. Clarke; ran a few episodes this morning before I noticed. Robert Heinlein too, I hope.

    And I’ve pretty much not paid any attention. It’s background noise today.

  61. 61.

    Amir Khalid

    April 10, 2015 at 12:50 pm

    @Randy P:
    A nitpick, if I may: In the introduction to his space-elevator novel The Fountains of Paradise, Clarke says that particular idea did not original with him.

  62. 62.

    CONGRATULATIONS!

    April 10, 2015 at 12:50 pm

    In the woman’s defense, I swam with a dolphin once, and when you’re out in deep water and you suddenly see this huge gray shape right under you, it’s pretty freaky.

    @JustRuss: You reminded me of something that happened when I was 14, out surfing one day, and something smacked my right side and I could feel the turbulence of something big zipping by me. JAWS had come out a few years before. I thought for a second I was getting attacked by sharks and about to die, and then another dolphin breached right over my head and I was suddenly in the middle of a huge pod of them. Which was pretty cool.

    It was the first time I’d been fucked with by a marine mammal but it was not to be the last. Fuckers have a sense of humor.

  63. 63.

    Amir Khalid

    April 10, 2015 at 12:53 pm

    @Cermet:

    There be strange breasts in the Sea

    Where? I wanna go see!

  64. 64.

    kindness

    April 10, 2015 at 12:53 pm

    You all and your John Kerry dislike. I have to figure none of you were around for Walter Mondale. Loved the guy but FSM that was that the worst campaign ever run, and against St. Ronnie too. Kerry was a rock star compared to Mondale. Kerry disagreed with the Vietnam war but served with distinction anyhow. And the whole Swift Boat thing was particularly disgusting. The MSM knew it was a crock of shit but acted like it was real. The media re-elected Dubya that time. If they had played Kerry straight on he might well have beaten Bush.

    And for all the Hillary haters out there I will kiss the ground she walks on over which ever trogladite Repub wins the nomination. You might not like her. She isn’t my favorite but she’s far better than the Dark Side of the force.

  65. 65.

    Bostondreams

    April 10, 2015 at 12:54 pm

    Manatees just need to get jobs!

    Man, I love Jim Gaffigan.

  66. 66.

    gene108

    April 10, 2015 at 1:00 pm

    @kindness:

    And the whole Swift Boat thing was particularly disgusting. The MSM knew it was a crock of shit but acted like it was real. /blockquote>

    In this the media seems consistent. It is up to the other party, who is being disparaged publicly to rebut the scandalous lies and rumors that are being said about him/her.

    The media just takes a “view from nowhere”, even when people lie to their face about someone else. It’s not their job to figure out what is true and what is a lie; they report, you decide.

  67. 67.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    April 10, 2015 at 1:08 pm

    @kindness:

    People tend to forget that Kerry got very, very close to winning — IIRC, Bush’s margin of victory over Kerry in the popular vote was smaller than Gore’s margin of victory over Bush in the popular vote in 2000.

  68. 68.

    ThresherK

    April 10, 2015 at 1:11 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): Soooooo, did you also make that rush or did you stay for the show?

    Never thought about it, but they are mammals. And the most polite metaphor I can come up with for the situation: I’ve always held that there’s nothing more graceful than a fat person who can dance, do yoga, or ice skate.

  69. 69.

    D58826

    April 10, 2015 at 1:14 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): Not sure about your questions but your comment about them being ‘pissed’ is in line with something I’ve been thinking about since the dashcam video from S. Carolina came out. Here you had a case of the cop behaving in a very calm and professional manner up to the point where the guy started to run. He then seemed to turn into a totally different person. What it reminded me of was the number of times I’ve read articles dealing with batter women. They so often say he is a good and loving husband and father, except when he loses his temper. Most of us have an ‘off-switch’ when we lose our temper but the abusive husband doesn’t. I wonder if it is something similar with the cop in these type situations. I’m sure there are some cops that are just bullies/sadists and/or racists but after something like happens every one says ‘I never saw that side of him’.

  70. 70.

    CONGRATULATIONS!

    April 10, 2015 at 1:15 pm

    The media re-elected Dubya that time. If they had played Kerry straight on he might well have beaten Bush.

    @kindness: Undoubtedly true, and despite some assertions above, Kerry rebutted every single accusation and then some, but the media wasn’t going to let him take the place of the Deciderer while we were “at war” and that was that.

    The media is going to do their level best to tank Hillary as well, and by a lot of the comments I’m seeing here, they’ve already succeeded and they’ve just barely started!

  71. 71.

    Cermet

    April 10, 2015 at 1:15 pm

    @Amir Khalid: Oops! LOL!!! Mermaids, maybe?!

  72. 72.

    SiubhanDuinne

    April 10, 2015 at 1:16 pm

    @Cermet:

    There be strange breasts in the Sea

    Offer limited to topless beaches.

    Edit: Shakes fist in Amir Khalid’s general direction

  73. 73.

    trollhattan

    April 10, 2015 at 1:17 pm

    @srv:
    Showing, for the umpteenth time, their diabolical plot to suck the very meaning out of the previously useful word “reason.”

    Can that guy even dress himself?

  74. 74.

    Betty Cracker

    April 10, 2015 at 1:19 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): True, but he was an awful candidate. In 2004, it was perfectly obvious to non-crazy people that the rationale for invading Iraq was a big fat lie. I’m sure there was some element of “don’t change horsemen in mid-apocalypse” in the results, but a better candidate would have beaten Bush like a rented mule.

  75. 75.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    April 10, 2015 at 1:19 pm

    @D58826:

    I think it’s a different dynamic when it’s a group of cops, though, just like a gang rape has a different dynamic than when there’s only one perpetrator.

  76. 76.

    Mandalay

    April 10, 2015 at 1:20 pm

    @kindness:

    The media re-elected Dubya that time. If they had played Kerry straight on he might well have beaten Bush.

    If Kerry had shown more guts and balls he could have won with or without the media, but he allowed his opponents to treat him like a doormat. Like Gore, he snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

    I don’t care for Clinton but in her defense if anyone fucks with her during the campaign they can expect to wake up next to a horse’s head.

  77. 77.

    D58826

    April 10, 2015 at 1:20 pm

    @kindness: And I will throw flowers in the path of her SCOTUS nominations. IF she gets to replace even just two of the 5 conservatives she can drag the court back into at least the late 20th century if not the 21st. The composition of the court is the MOST important issue to keep in mind

  78. 78.

    Mandalay

    April 10, 2015 at 1:24 pm

    @CONGRATULATIONS!:

    Undoubtedly true, and despite some assertions above, Kerry rebutted every single accusation and then some, but the media wasn’t going to let him take the place of the Deciderer while we were “at war” and that was that.

    No – voters didn’t like what they saw when Kerry dithered and took the high road when he was being attacked. His own behavior during the campaign fed the smear that he was a wimp and a coward.

  79. 79.

    Ruckus

    April 10, 2015 at 1:26 pm

    @Ridnik Chrome:
    You do everything you possibly can to elect a non idiot/sociopath, in a democracy, your side loses and you deserve that? What a load of crap. I can’t control that asshole behind me who is tailgating a foot off my bumper at 70 and neither can you. It just means you live in a fucked up world, it doesn’t mean you are responsible for it.

  80. 80.

    gene108

    April 10, 2015 at 1:26 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    but a better candidate would have beaten Bush like a rented mule.

    I am personally surprised he has ever been taken seriously. I remember hearing him speak back in 1999 and 2000 and I was like, “WTF? The guy cannot even talk in complete sentences, there’s no chance anyone can take him seriously”, but what do I know; I guess incoherence appeals to many Americans.

  81. 81.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    April 10, 2015 at 1:27 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    I honestly disagree — you’re forgetting that Republicans deliberately stacked the deck by putting anti-gay marriage initiatives on every ballot that would take one, and that’s leaving aside the various voting shenanigans in Ohio. Even with that, Kerry came very, very close to victory.

    However, I’m also someone who thinks that W is vastly underestimated as a political campaigner. Rove gets all the credit, but I think a lot of the dirty tricks originated with W. If he gets involved with Jeb’s campaign, Democrats will need to be on their toes. W was a lousy president, but he knows how to campaign.

  82. 82.

    Ruckus

    April 10, 2015 at 1:32 pm

    @Elizabelle:
    You know the old saw about know your enemy? Yes some of the conservatives are one issue voters. But many/most of them agree on all the conservative issues but are loudest on one. It’s their hot button, but they would not be liberal voters if everyone of us changed our position to exactly what they say they want. The problem is not their issue, it’s their philosophy of life and governing.

  83. 83.

    Beatrice

    April 10, 2015 at 1:35 pm

    @kindness: Sorry, no, the worst campaign ever run (by a Democrat) was Michael Dukakis. In your defense, it was so bad most people have blocked it out of their memory.

    It’s true Mondale had zero charisma (although I think he would have been a very good president) but nobody was going to win that election against Reagan. Nobody. Dukakis lost to George H.W. Bush, for goodness sake.

  84. 84.

    chopper

    April 10, 2015 at 1:40 pm

    @Cermet:

    There be strange breasts in the Sea

    there be strange breasts on land as well. just the other day i saw two men walking one.

  85. 85.

    Mandalay

    April 10, 2015 at 1:48 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    True, but he was an awful candidate.

    This. Like Gore, he may well have become a good president, but he (like Gore) ran a very poor campaign.

    The manner in which Kerry allowed himself to be swiftboated was his own doing; the media can’t be blamed for his passivity. Voters are not going to elect a man who doesn’t fight back strongly when his opponents smear him, and doubly so when the nation is at war.

  86. 86.

    Betty Cracker

    April 10, 2015 at 1:49 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): I haven’t forgotten the dirty tricks. I think that a better candidate than Kerry could have overcome them. As you pointed out, even Kerry almost won. And he was a bad candidate — pompous, stiff and boring as hell.

    Too many of our fellow Democrats mistake politics for a reality show. If they don’t get some razzle-dazzle, they change the channel or nod off in front of the set. I hate the fucking Republican base (in its abstract form), but I give them credit for recognizing the seriousness of the project.

  87. 87.

    Elizabelle

    April 10, 2015 at 1:53 pm

    You need a candidate that can connect with voters on a large scale. That was probably Kerry’s and Dukakis’s problems. You cannot get away with “pompous, boring and stiff” in public, even if the candidate is livelier in person.

    And Al Gore actually did win in 2000, despite being kind of wooden and distancing himself from Clinton. Never forget the disastrously-designed Palm Beach County butterfly ballot. There went your margin for the state right there, to the tune of 2-3,000 votes. The hanging chads deal was a sideshow.

    Al Gore won the nationwide popular vote by 500,000.

  88. 88.

    Ruckus

    April 10, 2015 at 1:53 pm

    @Betty Cracker:
    I thought then and still do that no one was going to beat the shrub in 04. I did my part, voted for Kerry and was amazed that it was that close. Countries don’t normally change directions during a war. Even if it is going badly or was completely wrong in the first place. And remember there was a lot of people thinking we needed to go to war. They were lied to and were wrong of course but that’s how the ball seems to roll some days.
    A second aside, Kerry didn’t do a whole lot for me as a campaigner but watching the results come in and seeing his concession speech, my first thought was, where was this guy the entire campaign? Had he delivered a couple of speeches like that things might have been different. He answered the questions, he fought well but he never led on anything. Maybe that was all he could do but I expected, OK hoped, for better. I think he’s a good person and he has been a great SOS.

  89. 89.

    Snarki, child of Loki

    April 10, 2015 at 1:58 pm

    @germy shoemangler: “Francis Pusok, 30, fled from deputies early in the afternoon as they tried to serve a search warrant in an identity-theft investigation. He eventually abandoned a car in the Hesperia area and stole a horse,”

    He got off light. They hang horse thieves.

  90. 90.

    D58826

    April 10, 2015 at 1:58 pm

    Well if Kerry and Obama can pull off the Iran deal, Kerry might have a better place in history than if he had been elected president

  91. 91.

    Amir Khalid

    April 10, 2015 at 2:00 pm

    @Elizabelle:
    I don’t know if this makes sense, but I figured Michael Dukakis was doomed in 1988 because his cousin Olympia took all the family’s luck by winning an Oscar.

  92. 92.

    Botsplainer

    April 10, 2015 at 2:00 pm

    I respect stuff in the water, but never fear anything. Once you learn to take a little harrassment, it’s easy as a diver, because you’re unlucky to make a mistake in panic. I’ve been diving in environments with reef sharks, whale sharks (40 feet long), hungry hunting 6 ft tarpon at night, overhead environments and avoiding lion fish, in wrecks with spotted and moray eels, been surrounded by large rays and harassed by both worms and remora.

    Doesn’t bug me.

  93. 93.

    Ruckus

    April 10, 2015 at 2:02 pm

    @Snarki, child of Loki:
    They hang horse thieves.

    Not in Hesperia. No trees tall enough or strong enough. There they just send out a gang with badges to beat the fuck out of you.

  94. 94.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 10, 2015 at 2:05 pm

    @Mandalay: I don’t care for Clinton but in her defense if anyone fucks with her during the campaign they can expect to wake up next to a horse’s head.

    I know the Clintons carry grudges, and they and their supporters consider them(selves) dragon-slaying warriors, but I’d love to see some actual evidence of this. I know she cancelled a fundraiser for Claire McCaskill when CMcC made some stupid reference to not leaving Bill alone with her daughter. Good on HRC and I would’ve done the same, but the Clintons’ trail is not littered with the bones of their enemies, that I can see. Some worn out friends and allies are still sitting on rocks they found in the shade.

    one thing I remember from ’04, Kerry’s very private ex-wife, Julia Thorne, was enraged by the purple band-aids and swift-boating, and wanted to do media appearances to push back. Kerry and his brass turned her down, saying IIRC that the media would never let those lies stand. I hope he is the last Dem to internalize the ‘liberal media’ fantasy.

  95. 95.

    Older

    April 10, 2015 at 2:08 pm

    That poor manatee was probably thinking, “What the fucking FUCK, lady?”

    Naaa, Manatee’s thinking: “Hmm, I seen those pink things before but they don’t usually make that noise.”

    “I wonder if it’s the same kinda pink thing.”

    “Here, lemme just get up close and have a look.”

  96. 96.

    Original Lee

    April 10, 2015 at 2:23 pm

    The U.S. Chamber of Commerce has called for Congress to be held accountable for not passing transportation funding legislation. When you’ve lost the Chamber, you’re in sad, sad shape.

  97. 97.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    April 10, 2015 at 2:31 pm

    @ThresherK:

    We weren’t in the first group of people who left, but we didn’t stay. Even manatees deserve a little privacy when they’re gettin’ it on.

  98. 98.

    askew

    April 10, 2015 at 2:39 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    The Clintons only hold grudges against fellow Dems. Look at Bill Richardson. He’s considered Judas for supporting Obama in the primaries and then consider George HW Bush who is one of Bill’s best buddies.

    So, I can understand why Dems don’t want to run against Hillary. The Clintons, unfortunately, control most of the fundraising apparatus for the Dem Party and they will freeze out anyone who crosses them.

  99. 99.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    April 10, 2015 at 2:40 pm

    Also, since I’m not in the mood to refight 2004 today, here are some baby manatees from Zooborns — some zoo born, some rescued:

    http://www.zooborns.com/zooborns/manatee/

  100. 100.

    catclub

    April 10, 2015 at 2:41 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    the only truly exciting thing about the prospect of HRC

    Aim higher. Multiple SC appointments ( Obama?).

  101. 101.

    Mandalay

    April 10, 2015 at 2:53 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I know the Clintons carry grudges, …but I’d love to see some actual evidence of this.

    I’m not sure what evidence you are hoping for. Clinton is not going to say Kerry is on her shitlist because he went with Obama in 2008, but I don’t think he expects to be asked to stay on as SoS if Clinton becomes president. Debbie Wasserman Schultz went for Obama while she was still working on Clinton’s campaign, and is definitely on Clinton’s shit list. But there is nothing wrong per se with holding grudges, and it takes a very special person to rise above that (i.e. Obama, of course).

    I just meant to say that Clinton will fight mean, tough and dirty if she needs to. Evidence of that? Well her campaign got dangerously close to blowing racist dog whistles in the 2008 campaign against Obama.

  102. 102.

    chopper

    April 10, 2015 at 3:04 pm

    @Mandalay:

    “dangerously close”? she tooted on that shit in front of everyone.

  103. 103.

    WaterGirl

    April 10, 2015 at 3:07 pm

    @Mandalay:

    …her campaign got dangerously close to blowing racist dog whistles in the 2008 campaign against Obama.

    Your memory of that is more generous to Clinton than mine is.

  104. 104.

    Betty Cracker

    April 10, 2015 at 3:13 pm

    @catclub: Any Democrat will be better on SCOTUS nominees, etc.

  105. 105.

    the Conster

    April 10, 2015 at 3:14 pm

    @WaterGirl:

    Yeah, mine too – I remember being appalled and outraged, and I’ll never forgive her for that. It was inexcusable. I’ll vote for her, but I won’t be happy about it.

  106. 106.

    Mandalay

    April 10, 2015 at 3:15 pm

    @chopper: @WaterGirl: Heh – point taken. Having branded Kerry as a wimp, I guess I was being a bit wimpy myself.

  107. 107.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    April 10, 2015 at 3:23 pm

    @Mandalay: I just meant to say that Clinton will fight mean, tough and dirty if she needs to. Evidence of that?

    You mention “horses’ heads”, to me that implies ruthless effectiveness. Yours is a negative spin on the old PUMA song of “the Clintons know how to fight Republicans and win!” to which I replied “Impeached but not convicted” ain’t a great bumper sticker, and every once in a while someone pipes up around here that Hillary wouldn’t have wasted six years trying to negotiate with Republicans, which is just choose-your-own-adventure-liberalism that ignores little things like the Constitution, the electorate, ConservaDems and the Clintons’ actual record. John Kerry is on the Clintons’ shit list? He’ll have to console himself with retirement with his glamorous bazillionaire wife and maybe a Nobel prize if the Iran deal survives. Debbie Wasserman Schultz is ineffective and has a lot more enemies than the Clintons. I doubt Bill Richardson’s post-political life has suffered, though I gather he comes from money on both sides of his family and doesn’t care. I have a lot of problems with Claire McCaskill, but she’s shrewd and has her own plan that doesn’t need any help from teh Clintons. Nancy Pelosi IIRC was an early defector to Obama. I doubt she fears the Restoration. Harry Reid is retiring cause he’s old and tired and maybe there was more to his recent accident than he’s saying; I’d say the Clintons would have more to fear from the wily old man than the other way around. George Stephanopolous hasn’t exactly faded into obscurity (much as he might deserve it).

    The examples you mention, from the dogwhistles to the anger, are not horses’ heads. That was a clusterfuck explosion of frustrated entitlement and confusion and rage. The angrier Hillary got (egged on by her husband, I’d bet the farm) the worse she looked, the weaker she became. That’s Sonny Corleone, not Don Vito.

  108. 108.

    askew

    April 10, 2015 at 3:37 pm

    @the Conster: I’ve been told to get over 2008 and that her appalling behavior doesn’t matter now.

  109. 109.

    EthylEster

    April 10, 2015 at 3:58 pm

    @the Conster:

    Then there was this horrific big dog eaten by bigger alligator story. You can have Florida.

    It took place in Alabama.

  110. 110.

    Doug r

    April 10, 2015 at 3:58 pm

    @Mandalay: no kidding even with an awesome campaigner like Obama he still had trouble with her

  111. 111.

    the Conster

    April 10, 2015 at 4:11 pm

    @EthylEster:

    Yes, but there are alligators in Florida too, everywhere.

  112. 112.

    the Conster

    April 10, 2015 at 4:13 pm

    @askew:

    Yes, I’ve seen that here, and as I’ve said every time the subject of HRC is raised I will vote for her, but I won’t be happy about it. At all. That crossed the line with me, and I don’t forget.

  113. 113.

    Ridnik Chrome

    April 10, 2015 at 4:13 pm

    @Betty Cracker: The next president, Democrat or Republican, will pick Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s successor. And if it’s a Republican he will most likely pick Kennedy’s and Scalia’s successors, too. Reason enough right there to vote for ANY Democrat.

  114. 114.

    Bystander

    April 10, 2015 at 4:29 pm

    HRC is objectively hands-down the most experienced, intelligent, reliable person who will be nominated in the next election. I don’t mean to sound like Marcel Dalio’s character in the film version of Catch-22, but when she’s nominated, I’ll be the most enthusiastic, fervent HRC fan there is.

  115. 115.

    Betty Cracker

    April 10, 2015 at 4:42 pm

    @Ridnik Chrome: Yeah, I get that. I’ll vote for any Democrat over any Republican. My original comment was about what qualities I find most compelling, and as far as HRC goes, it’s the chance to elect a woman. I don’t dislike HRC at all, but she’s not my first choice either.

  116. 116.

    askew

    April 10, 2015 at 4:43 pm

    @Bystander:

    Any Dem who is thinking of running would be more experienced, intelligent, and reliable than any GOP. that’s not unique to HRC.

  117. 117.

    brantl

    April 10, 2015 at 4:50 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    For me, the only truly exciting thing about the prospect of HRC as the nominee is the opportunity to break the gender barrier. It’s not everything, but it’s not nothing either.

    It’s damn close to nothing, as you’re talking about the 2nd best bed-shitting triangulater the democratic party has.

  118. 118.

    RSA

    April 10, 2015 at 5:46 pm

    @Randy P:

    Does “prophets” mean “actual science predicted by science fiction writers?”

    The predictive ability of science fiction is enormously overblown, imho. I can think of a dozen or so significant scientific or technological advances mentioned in science fiction that (a) occurred before the actual advances and (b) weren’t obvious at the time. But that’s out of tens if not hundreds of thousands of science fiction novels. Some nearly-correct descriptions of the future or inspirations for the future are impressive (e.g. Heinlein’s waldos), but they’re really, really rare.

  119. 119.

    Jebediah, RBG

    April 10, 2015 at 5:48 pm

    @srv:
    quoting Welch:

    Why did the same Netizens (as they are no longer called) who rally against government in the name of privacy turn around and rally in favor of it when it comes to data prioritization arrangements?

    It doesn’t surprise me that a Reasonoid doesn’t want to admit the obvious: when you ask two separate, different questions, it is actually possible that the answers won’t be identical.
    “Oh sure – you’re all in favor of fire when you are cooking with it, but all of a sudden you’re against fire when it’s burning your house down! Liberal hypocrite!”

  120. 120.

    Bystander

    April 10, 2015 at 5:50 pm

    I thought the Conster’s point was now that we know the big Alabamian alligator can eat a huge dog, let’s offer it Florida.

  121. 121.

    jacel

    April 10, 2015 at 5:59 pm

    If we’re revisiting 2004 and the media’s complicity in giving Bush advantages, recall the video Osama released soon before the election. As I recall, there was much made of it existing in the news, mentioned in a way to reinforce fear (advantage, Republications). But not much was said then of the content of that video, in which Bin Laden spoke at length of how Bush had consistently acted to Al Queda’s advantage.

    Here’s a transcript that is dated a little before the election, but I don’t think the message was spoken of much in the media.

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=215913

    One excerpt: “… the policy of the White House that demands the opening of war fronts to keep busy their various corporations — whether they be working in the field of arms or oil or reconstruction — has helped al Qaeda to achieve these enormous results. And so it has appeared to some analysts and diplomats that the White House and us are playing as one team towards the economic goals of the United States even if the intentions differ.”

  122. 122.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    April 10, 2015 at 6:35 pm

    @RSA:

    Personally, I would say that science fiction is influential rather than predictive. That is, I think people see/read about gadgets in science fiction and think, “Hmm, I wonder if I could make that?” For one example, I don’t think our smartphones would look the way they do if “Star Trek” had never existed.

  123. 123.

    RSA

    April 10, 2015 at 6:48 pm

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): Nice observations. I especially like the idea that SF might influence the way we think about interacting with novel technology.

    ETA: (Assuming that was an implication of your comment.)

  124. 124.

    pluky

    April 10, 2015 at 10:05 pm

    @Cermet: With the exception of an orca, or a great white shark, sea lions are apex predators with the teeth and dispositions to back it up.

  125. 125.

    brantl

    April 13, 2015 at 7:27 am

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): People tend to forget that Ohio was jimmied, twice for Bush, as well

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