Imagine the sadness of having a miscarriage, then realizing that you need a way for the fetus to pass through your body. Your doctor prescribes Misoprotol, a drug that is also used in abortions, instead of invasive surgery. Then you go to Walmart to get your prescription and the pharmacist refuses to give it to you based on his or her personal beliefs. Turns out in Georgia where this occurred, this has been acceptable practice on the law books for 15 years. Walmart stands by this decision:
[Brittany] Cartrett [who experienced this] said, “It’s very frustrating because who is the pharmacist to make that decision. I understand that they go to school for a very long time for that job. … But I’m not going to see that pharmacist, I’m going to see a doctor and if it’s because of that due to the conscience clause I think it’s called, then what other decisions are they making based on our health and our needs by not giving a prescription to someone who may or may not need it.”
Team Blackness also discussed former NFL star Aaron Hernandez’s guilty murder verdict, the Tulsa volunteer police officer who has turned himself in for the killing of Eric Harris, and the practice of giving no fucks.
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Sorry to thread jack!
OT: Republicans admit more loyalty to Israel than the US
Obviously no one here is surprised.
Still waiting for a Christian Scientist to become a pharmacist and refuse to fill any prescription.
That’s a brand name, not a description.
I know it’s a pipe dream, but in my kingdom, pharmacists who refuse to dispense legal, medically prescribed drugs would have their licenses suspended. They are interfering in the Dr.-patient relationship. They might be putting the patient at risk of harm.
If they can’t do their job, they should find another job.
@RaflW: I agree. And to amplify, in this case, does it indicate an incompetent pharmacist? If the patient explained what the Rx was for, what was the problem even by this pharmacist’s own professed standards? Pharmacists are trained to understand how drugs work, you know, and how they can do different things in different circumstances. That is, one of the main reasons the profession exists, since too much for others to keep track of all the druggy details.
Seems unprofessional and incompetent to me. Unbelievable that a supposedly sane large corporation and a US state government would stand behind this harmful and insulting nonsense.
How many pharmacists have refused to honor Viagra prescriptions on moral grounds?
The comments on that story are surprisingly good. More than one person pointed out that a patient shouldn’t be forced to discuss her medical history with a pharmacist just to get a freakin’ prescription filled.
And, as usual, it shows that conservatives are completely indifferent to any suffering they cause. Sure, this woman had a legitimate medical reason, but they’d better not fill it just in case the next woman is a slutty slut who just wants an abortion. The innocent must suffer to prevent a “bad” person from MAYBE getting something they don’t deserve. I’m sure that asshat pharmacist is going around telling her church friends about all the babies she’s “saved” by refusing that prescription.
Major Major Major Major
In other social justice news, a trans guy may very well be on the cover of men’s health: https://www.yahoo.com/style/trans-guy-aydian-dowling-maybe-covering-mens-116477296903.html
Suspension doesn’t reflect the severity of the offence against professional values. A pharmacist who refuses to dispense prescribed medication is maliciously refusing service, and the only appropriate sanction for that is a permanent revocation of his licence.
@jl: I believe he stated or implied that he thought she was lying.
So what? Pharmacists always have the information at the ready to contact the doctor immediately, and have to do that frequently. For example, a ‘check with doc’ note before doing a brand/generic substitution. That is a BS excuse.
Gin & Tonic
@Amir Khalid: Pharmacists often can and do question a “prescribed medication”, for medical reasons. It is their role in the system, to be aware of possible ill effects or drug interactions, or as a double-check on the doctor’s dosing or intent. This is not to attempt to justify the “moralizing” intervention, just to point out that they are highly educated, licensed professionals who do more than count out pills.
Podcast download link is dead: a 404 error.
@Gin & Tonic:
Noted with thanks. I shall qualify my statement thus:
A pharmacist who refuses to dispense prescribed medication on other than medical grounds is maliciously refusing service, and the only appropriate sanction for that is a permanent revocation of his licence.
@Gin & Tonic: But the doctor has the prescribing authority in cases like this.
Exceptions are well defined cases where pharmacist would know more about something than the doc (for example, drug-drug interaction) and can make decision (which has to be communicated to doctor immediately) or pharmacist has special training and well defined prescribing authority for a treatment episode.
I don’t see how either apply in this case. In a rational and just world, the pharmacist would have to face an investigation and make a case that should not lose license. IMH, layman’s Opinion.
Edit: in any case, if the pharmacists had some kind of doubt because thought the woman was lying, the pharmacist had the means and certainly had lots of practice in contacting the doc. I think evidence of sketchy pharmacist here.
I thought a part of the conscience clauses was that if a pharmacist declines to fill a prescription based on their own beliefs, the pharmacy still needs to find another pharmacist who will fill the prescription?
I thought a part of these clauses was that the pharmacy still needed to find someone who would fill the prescription?
I’m still waiting for the first red state fire department that refuses to put out a blaze at a gay couple’s home. Honestly, I’m surprised it hasn’t happened yet.
Goddamn moderation. You cannot type a comment containing the word p r e s c r i p t i o n, which in a comment about conscience clauses is nearly impossible.
No idea how accurate this is, but some people in the comments said that the doctor called ahead to tell the pharmacy what he was prescribing. So the pharmacist doesn’t even have the excuse that s/he needed to talk to the doctor first.
And, yes, pharmacists can put a hold on prescriptions for a legitimate medical reason. “BAYBEEZ!” is not a legitimate medical reason, and could even have caused harm to the patient if she had gotten an infection from the unexpelled tissue.
Yes, moderation release is desperately needed in this thread, if any front-pagers are available.
…. I meant, in a THREAD about conscience clauses….
…. I meant, in a THREAD about conscience clauses….
ANYWAY I thought a key part of these clauses was that the p h a r m a c y still needed to find someone who would fill a p r e s c r i p t i o n even if their own pharmacist would not?
I mean, hell, pharmacists have contact doctors about R x ‘ s every day.
Over reimbursement and cost issues (patient fines that cannot afford), refill confusions, over indicated substitutions, over questions about particular patient, over concerns about indications patient is not compliant in some way that could cause serious problems.
That is why people who want to abuse R x drugs have to spend so much time doctor and pharmacy shopping so score their hauls.
If that pharmacist said thought woman was lying and just flat refused to fill, and didn’t even bother to try to contact doctor to verify, the more I think about it, the more fishy this pharmacist sounds. Just an outrage, that is being tolerated in the name of reckless and vicious misogyny.
Did the doofus pharmacist not realize that by going to pharmacy school that he/she would be filling prescriptions written by doctors? Did they think they were going to rattle some beads, pray to Jeebus and all would be well? Why didn’t they go to seminary and become professional proselytizers? If they don’t want to do their jobs, why did they waste so much time in the wrong field? Most people have parts of their jobs that are shit in some way or other. If they don’t do their job anyway, they get fired. What makes pharmacists such special snowflakes? Why aren’t they fired for refusing to do their job?
I do realize that they ask about medical history to act as a backstop for doctors who might not know (patient may see multiple doctors) exactly what drugs are being taken. That part I agree with. If they don’t like the reason a prescription is for (birth control pills, for example), they ought to be legally and financially responsible for the patients costs in getting treatment. In a case like this, pay for the surgical procedure and all follow up out of their own pocket. Pay a fine for refusing medical service. And by the way, there is usually more than one pharmacist behind the counter at Walmart. Go after them all. If they can’t hire people who want to do their jobs, they should be forced to shut down their pharmacy. (Pharmacies are profit centers for the store. The pharmacy ALWAYS shows a profit.)
Stuck in moderation hell…
I am having moderation problems too. I will try again
I mean, hell, pharmacists have to contact doctors about s c r * p s every day.
Over reimbursement and cost issues (patient finds that cannot afford), refill confusions, over indicated substitutions, over questions about particular patient or AR EKKSS, over concerns about indications patient is not compliant in some way that could cause serious problems.
That is why people who want to abuse p r * s c r * pshunnnn drugs have to spend so much time doctor and d r * g s t * r e shopping to score their hauls.
If that nice drug f * rmaasseee man said thought woman was lying and just flat refused to fill, and didn’t even bother to try to contact doctor to verify, the more I think about it, the more fishy this health professioinal sounds. Just an outrage, that is being tolerated in the name of reckless and vicious misogyny.
Iowa Old Lady
I’m so sad for this poor woman who was already having a miscarriage. That a pharmacist would add to her suffering is inexcusable.
Major Major Major Major
Yeah, there’s a pharmacist’s professional discretion and then there’s letting your religious beliefs impact a patient’s health. This is unconscionable and whatever organization licenses pharmacists should start stripping licenses for this shit.
They are wary of drug abuse and interactions for a living, certainly. I know I get looked at funny every time I refill a mood stabilizer. Or maybe I just think I do ;) But we have professional standards for a reason, we should start enforcing them regardless of conscience exemptions. Being licensed is not a civil right.
Do arrexes and farmacees get through?
Really like to believe this wasn’t gonna happen. But we knew the Valuistas would do it someday.
Maybe if the woman changes her name to Terry Schiavo she can get one R somewhere to give a shit about her.
@Southern Beale: what’s the point of that in the religious extremist view? I can’t believe walmart puts up with this in their stores, but maybe everyone that would be offended by it is already boycotting them anyway
I’m surprised a miscarriage or stillbirth in Georgia doesn’t automatically get referred to a grand jury nowadays. Probably shouldn’t be here giving them any ideas…
@Eric U.: What concerns me is that in this case, the professed religious extremist views were irrelevant, given the purpose of the drug. And this guy did not even try to ascertain the truth of the matter, which to me is flat out unprofessional and unethical. Should be a big fuss over this case.
Iowa Old Lady
I don’t know if this woman’s insurance requires her to use WalMart or something, but if possible, the OB/Gyn practice needs to stop sending prescriptions there.
@Gin & Tonic:
Or if you are like me and have different doctors prescribing things for different ailments, I hope the trained pharmacist has an eye out for any bad interactions that could happen if my nephrologist prescribes something that might not make the prescriptions from my psychiatrist happy.
Just waiting for all the more pious than thou medical workers start refusing to dispense pain medication to birthing mothers and blocking all access cesareans on the grounds that it’s supposed to be painful, it’s in The Text! Word of God you lazy upperclass infidels!
The point is to set oneself up as a moral arbiter of other people’s lives. I’m guessing that even if the pharmacist had been told it was a miscarriage, s/he would have acted the same way, because everyone knows that miscarriages are always the woman’s own fault, amirite? Yes, lots of people still believe that, and it’s particularly cruel because women have a lot of trouble not blaming themselves for a miscarriage already.
“Conscience clause” reasons to not do your job are inexcusable, in any industry, for any reason, at any time.
It’s plain and simple refusing to do your job, and if you find what is being asked of you so offensive, leave and find another job, like the rest of us who aren’t handicapped by Jesus Blindness have to do.
@Mnemosyne (tablet): This kind of thing really really pisses me off. In my mind there are connections between this case and the flap during the deadly and horrifying US Ebola epidemic over whether exposed health professionals should follow written protocols or use their own judgment on the fly in decisions over quarantine.
I am a Ben Franklin / Harry Truman liberal in that respect. Everyone benefits from basic rules, conventions and teamwork decided by society. People don’t like it, hey, the woods are that way and you can get the F out of here. This pharmacist, and Walmart, and the state of Georgia can use a little that medicine.
Edit: and I don’t remember what side you on during the Ebola quarantine flap, so I wasn’t being provocative.
Well I’m happy that when I got my abortion, the pill was just handed to me at the clinic. I took it, then took another one at home and… that was it. This was in Texas, god knows if that is even allowed anymore. Probably not enough shaming involved.
pharmacists can also help with insurance issues and drug affordability. my kid’s pediatrician once prescribed an antibiotic and the pharm took one look at it and said “this is gonna cost you two hundo. hold on” and he called the doc and got the scrip changed for a med that does the same job for 15 bucks after insurance. doctors often either don’t think or don’t care about that shit.
@scav: The point being, the Mighty Moralizers do really only make the active effort to affirm their tender consciousnesses and kick down. A few pious words about the inequities of the rich and powerful on Sunday in private spaces while sitting quietly on their posteriors, maybe, but the steel-toed Bible-boots and Holywater knuckledusters get hauled on to the less fortunate most days of the week.
@CONGRATULATIONS!: Thinking this through though…
Your argument against this particular type of lack of professionalism is sound. However, that horse left the barn long ago. The first gynecologist/obstetrician who refused to even perform a D&C or wouldn’t even learn how to do one…that was the conscience clause to end all conscience clauses. Because a medical board who accepted this person’s license as legitimate, basically broke with the notion that professional standards required certain basic training.
And it begins with a nursing or medical school which made that particular class optional, with a hospital which did not train their nurses or residents, etc. All those places and programs should have lost their certification, and been blackballed by the AMA and the government.
So, we may argue that if an individual cannot or will not do certain things, which most agree are part of one’s profession, he or she should not be in that profession. But, along with separating clinics from hospitals (I believe originally meant to make all parts of women’s healthcare more accessible), this really was the thin edge of the wedge, and it has been used to make accessible abortion care almost entirely unavailable.
The pharmacists are simply doing what they’ve seen the obstetricians and gynecologists doing. Don’t forget, our corporate healthcare is enabling it as well. See all those drugstore chain mergers, or see all those Catholic hospital mergers….
Tennessee preparing to pass 48-hour waiting periods, consent laws, etc.
I think we need to take a cue from the right and stop referring to these things as abortions this early. Come up with some scientific term that bypasses RWNJ radar.
I can. They’re religious extremists, too. It’s like Hobby Lobby.
Snarki, child of Loki
“A pharmacist who refuses to dispense prescribed medication to a woman having a miscarriage is maliciously refusing service, and the only appropriate sanction for that is a permanent revocation of his license to breathe.”
The law should also require employers who to staff a pharmacist who WILL DO THE FUCKING JOB at all times to back up the delicate wilting Christian flowers who must be paid even if they don’t want to do the job.
@Belafon: Then I think the pharmacist is lying about his reasons, and he just wants to see women suffer.
If he cant take her or her doctorrs word, then why should we take his?
” If he cant take her or her doctorrs word, then why should we take his? ”
Excellent point, and excellently expressed.
Ought to be arguing how to prevent women killing their kids as opposed to the manner by which a miscarriage is handled
Steve, this is one of YOUR buddies who made this decision. Someone who’s so obsessed with thinking that someone was planning to “kill her kid” that they made the life of a woman who miscarried even harder than it already was.
This is exactly what you knew would happen when you decided you were qualified to poke around in the contents of strange women’s uteruses and decide what health care they should be allowed to get. You own it.
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Don’t worry, the manner of treatment of a medical condition is a minor issue. Sure Steve would agree completely if he could not get the treatment his doctor ordered some day, nothing to sweat over. If some one had to cut into him instead of something less painful, he’s a tough guy who will handle it.