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You are here: Home / Past Elections / Election 2016 / Hillary Hillary Hillary..

Hillary Hillary Hillary..

by John Cole|  April 23, 20159:14 pm| 172 Comments

This post is in: Election 2016

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As NYTimes publishes hit piece on Clinton, I have coffee. See how two unrelated things can happen simultaneously? https://t.co/B63m5FY3ba

— John Cole (@Johngcole) April 23, 2015

Zander touched on this earlier, but I have multiple thoughts about the latest pay for play accusations launched in the NY Times today, and I am all over the place, and sure to piss everyone off. My thoughts, in no particular order.

1.) This is a known right wing hack. That he plans to do the same to Jeb Bush (and, no doubt, find nothing), means nothing to me. If there is anything we have learned, we should not trust the rw media.

2.) The NY Times sure does seem to love to hate Hillary. Some days it feels like Maureen Dowd has taken over the entire paper, and you can easily see how the NY Times could be taken down the road to Whitewater again.

3.) Part of the problem is the implications are troubling, which is why they get so much attention, which is why the wingnuts bring them up in the first place, because they know the media can’t resist them because, well, they are troubling. But again, just because Bill was making bank speaking doesn’t mean that people were trying to buy influence with Hillary through the Clinton foundation.

4.) How much god damned money do they need to earn for themselves? That’s the most unseemly thing about it for me:

Bill Clinton was paid at least $26 million in speaking fees by companies and organizations that are also major donors to the foundation he created after leaving the White House, according to a Washington Post analysis of public records and foundation data.

The amount, about one-quarter of Clinton’s overall speaking income between 2001 and 2013, demonstrates how closely intertwined Bill and Hillary Clinton’s charitable work has become with their growing personal wealth.

How many damned millions does he need. We decry people leaving Congress for lobbying jobs to make a couple million, I’d argue that raising 100 million in a decade just for speaking is just as bad.

And when you earn that much money basically doing whatever someone asks you to do for a buck, you end up intertwined in some unseemly shit. Like this:

The company, whose honorary chancellor is former President Bill Clinton, has been meeting with potential underwriters for an IPO that could value the education juggernaut at about $5 billion, said the people, who asked not to be named discussing private information. The company, based in Baltimore, owns 84 universities, mostly in emerging markets.

Laureate is basically the best of the worst. But back to the point, is there anything Clinton doesn’t have his hands in? How much is he being paid (they won’t say and I can’t find it).

5.) Hillary needs to have a better response than this.

6.) Yes, this is a Fox News clip, but it is NYT reporter Jo Becker catching Clinton Foundation officials in a complete lie, denying a meeting between Clinton and one of the uranium folks took place at the Clinton household before being informed they had pictures of the meeting, at which point the foundation admitted the meeting had taken place:

That’s pretty bad. If there is no there there, why is this shit happening?

So, yeah. I don’t know what to think other than trust no one and this is going to be the longest, most acrimonious campaign ever. But I sure as hell need more than coincidences and the stuff the rw media is burping up.

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Reader Interactions

172Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    April 23, 2015 at 9:19 pm

    Can someone explain Hillary’s involvement with the Foundation? People talk about them as if they were one in the same.

  2. 2.

    Corner Stone

    April 23, 2015 at 9:21 pm

    I’m not too sure about some of that. All I know is that anytime she talks it’s like nails on a chalkboard and I want to protect my privates as I wonder if I’ve taken out the trash yet.

  3. 3.

    John Cole +0

    April 23, 2015 at 9:23 pm

    @Corner Stone: ??? I thought you loved HIllary.

  4. 4.

    Corner Stone

    April 23, 2015 at 9:23 pm

    Somehow people being multi-millionaires is akin to the multi-billionaires actually buying politicians.
    The Republican super funders laugh at $200M. Shit, they’ll spend that just to get their branded ads pasted onto their client pols.

  5. 5.

    Corner Stone

    April 23, 2015 at 9:24 pm

    @John Cole +0: Sometimes I love you, John Cole.

  6. 6.

    Frankensteinbeck

    April 23, 2015 at 9:25 pm

    1) Then you’re putting way too much trust in a known right-wing hack.

    2) Then maybe you’re putting way too much trust in a source with a known axe to grind.

    3) They’re not troubling. They’re troubling if you cover one eye, squint, and stick your head up your ass. Then you can tell other people that they’re troubling, and those people will go ‘gosh, if you put it that way, that’s troubling!’

    4)

    How much god damned money do they need to earn for themselves?

    However much they can get? If he can make billions on speaking fees, I have no problem with that. If there was sign of impropriety, like spending a congressional career voting for certain interests and then being hired by those interests as soon as you left office, that might be another matter. He’s a charismatic ex-president. Yes, he can make a metric fuckton of money on speaking tours.

    5) A better response than what? ‘I’d rather talk about issues, because my opponents won’t?’ I hear cries here that that’s the right answer all the time. What do you, exactly, think would be the best response? Can you back it up?

    6) This one someone else can answer. My blood pressure is high enough without listening to FOX. ‘The video has been selectively edited to make it look like they caught her’ is an answer that has actually been correct before.

  7. 7.

    Baud

    April 23, 2015 at 9:26 pm

    Where there’s smoke there’s fire…or a lot of people blowing smoke.

  8. 8.

    askew

    April 23, 2015 at 9:29 pm

    @Baud:

    At this point they are. They changed the name to include all 3 Clintons and there is so much intertwining between them that it is hard to separate them.

    I just want to know what dumbass sent Chelsea Clinton out to defend the Clinton Foundation and not Hillary or Bill. Like we are going to take anything Chelsea says seriously.

  9. 9.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 9:30 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    I’m not too sure about some of that. All I know is that anytime she talks it’s like nails on a chalkboard and I want to protect my privates as I wonder if I’ve taken out the trash yet.

    Nice baredly-coded implication of coded sexism.

    I like to see that the Clintons are promoting education, but I’m skeptical of the for-profit universities. Students go into far more debt to complete their degrees and it would appear they inflate their graduate employment statistics by, among other things, only counting students who had a job before graduating.

  10. 10.

    Baud

    April 23, 2015 at 9:31 pm

    @askew:

    They changed the name to include all 3 Clintons and there is so much intertwining between them that it is hard to separate them.

    What does that mean?

  11. 11.

    chopper

    April 23, 2015 at 9:33 pm

    7 cole posts in one day? you lose yer job or somethin’?

  12. 12.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 9:33 pm

    The NY Times sure does seem to love to hate Hillary. Some days it feels like Maureen Dowd has taken over the entire paper, and you can easily see how the NY Times could be taken down the road to Whitewater again.

    It’s been sad watching the cancer that is the majority of the New York Times editorial board metastatize over the years.

  13. 13.

    Elmo

    April 23, 2015 at 9:35 pm

    I have the same issues as Cole. But I tend to think that they’re all corrupt anyway, so if this story is evidence of corruption it’s just proof of what I already know.

    All politicians start by wanting to do good, and end by doing well. All of them – except the ones who are grifting from the beginning. So the Clintons are no different, despite my wishing they were. Ok. So I have to grow up and not expect any politician to be clean.

    So the choice, as always, is between a corrupt pol who tries to hide it and help the middle class along the way, and a corrupt pol who cheerfully acknowledges the grift and is for sale to the highest bidder.

    No brainer.

  14. 14.

    askew

    April 23, 2015 at 9:36 pm

    Jonathan Chait(I know he’s an asshole but) has a good article up on the Clinton Foundation’s revelations today.

    The Washington Examiner reports, “Twenty-two of the 37 corporations nominated for a prestigious State Department award — and six of the eight ultimate winners — while Hillary Clinton was Secretary of State were also donors to the Clinton family foundation.”
    And Reuters reports, “Hillary Clinton’s family’s charities are refiling at least five annual tax returns after a Reuters review found errors in how they reported donations from governments, and said they may audit other Clinton Foundation returns in case of other errors.”

    The Obama administration wanted Hillary Clinton to use official government email. She didn’t. The Obama administration also demanded that the Clinton Foundation disclose all its donors while she served as Secretary of State. It didn’t comply with that request, either.

    Hillary’s campaign meeting today with big donors in NYC turned into a handholding session about these allegations. I don’t know why they think that having Hillary say nothing on the CF is helping her. It didn’t work with the emails and it won’t work with this.

    On a more important note, I hope we get a thread on the Warren/Obama tiff on TPA/TPP. When I see Paul Ryan and Ted Cruz pushing for TPA to pass so we can have TPP, I get sick to my stomach and no amount of reassurance from Obama changes that.

  15. 15.

    Alex s

    April 23, 2015 at 9:37 pm

    My favorite accusation is that cash was donated to thr Clinton foundation to help the State department approve the Keystone pipeline.

  16. 16.

    Gvg

    April 23, 2015 at 9:39 pm

    when they left the Whitehouse they really were broke. they owed large amounts of money and it was because of the various legal defenses over right wing nuttiness and spite not because of actual substance. one of the criticisms of Hillary I have considered valid is that she often seems to start from a defensive crouch. the article that impressed me drew up a timeline of her political life experience and it was basically the decline of liberalism from the height in the 60’s on. I am old enough to remember an awful lot of big democratic defeats.
    so anyway I think both of them might have a kind of hoarder mentality about money. I don’t know, it’s just an idea I have from imagining myself in their place and the constant attacks. I also think that’s why they are never as open as we would like. Obama too has become less open than I think he intended.
    Money doesn’t solve everything but it’s the only thing that does which you can have some control over.

  17. 17.

    PlanetPundit (used to be Sir Laffs-a-Lot)

    April 23, 2015 at 9:40 pm

    I’d bet that scumbag the NYT imported from the BBC was behind this journaliatic travesty.

  18. 18.

    Baud

    April 23, 2015 at 9:41 pm

    @efgoldman:

    to dismiss the bullshit for bullshit.

    Oh I do. In spades.

  19. 19.

    Citizen_X

    April 23, 2015 at 9:41 pm

    you can easily see how the NY Times could be taken down the road to Whitewater again.

    Or the Iraq War, or the Wen Ho Lee case…

  20. 20.

    askew

    April 23, 2015 at 9:42 pm

    @Elmo:

    I don’t think all of them are corrupt. Jimmy Carter sure seems to be pretty clean as does Obama. I also think there is a sliding scale on corruption with the Clintons too often flirting with the sleazy end of the scale.

  21. 21.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 9:45 pm

    @askew:

    On a more important note, I hope we get a thread on the Warren/Obama tiff on TPA/TPP. When I see Paul Ryan and Ted Cruz pushing for TPA to pass so we can have TPP, I get sick to my stomach and no amount of reassurance from Obama changes that.

    However, they don’t know the full details of the agreement. If Obama manages to negotiate labor and environmental protections, which have been typical shortcomings of these types of trade agreements, Republicans will have given away their ability to amend the agreement. An awesome prospect considering that the Rs control both houses of Congress.

    Hearing Obama speak about trade agreements, he seems aware of this historical shortcoming. Even the lack of environmental rules weighs against the American business and worker, since lightly regulated countries are able to produce more cheaply.

    The fast track isn’t approval. Wait until the full agreement is on the table before declaring that Obama sold us out, a declaration which seems to always come to naught.

  22. 22.

    kindness

    April 23, 2015 at 9:45 pm

    Shit John you are sounding like Sully. Sure it’s unseemingly. That is what they all do when they leave office. Every Republican has done as much and worse. Optics are important but it’ll come out OK. The media will be harsh on ’em. It’s what they do to Clintons. Did it to Obama too but not quite as 24/7.

  23. 23.

    phantomist

    April 23, 2015 at 9:45 pm

    Republicans complaining about money for influence, that’s like Oregon football bitching about that new sauna the back-up punters dad donated to the Washington St. program.

  24. 24.

    askew

    April 23, 2015 at 9:46 pm

    @Baud:

    The Clinton Foundation is now the Bill, Hillary and Chelsea Foundation. The staff that works on at the CF have moved between the charity and Hillary’s staff causing all kinds of conflicts of interest.

  25. 25.

    askew

    April 23, 2015 at 9:49 pm

    @Kropadope:

    The problem with these trade deals is that there is no enforcement of labor or environmental violations. While the South Korean Trade Deal has turned out ok. The Colombian Trade Deal that Obama said had protections in it has been a huge mess. Over 100 people have been murdered for trying to start unions since CAFTA was passed.

    And Fast Track ensures that there can be no amendments to the TPP once it is signed. Considering that all of the GOP is for the deal, there is no way for Congressional Dems to stop a bad deal from happening. I am a huge Obama supporter but he is only 1-1 on trade deals and this is too big of a deal to just trust him on.

  26. 26.

    Baud

    April 23, 2015 at 9:50 pm

    @askew:

    Thanks.

  27. 27.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 9:51 pm

    @askew:

    I don’t think all of them are corrupt. Jimmy Carter sure seems to be pretty clean as does Obama. I also think there is a sliding scale on corruption with the Clintons too often flirting with the sleazy end of the scale.

    This is because they’re only Democrats on issues. They are tactical Republicans. This is why I fear their effect on the culture of the Democratic Party.

    @efgoldman:

    Howkum Cole and the gang are OK with athletes making as much money as possible (as they should be) but having Democratic pols get rich sends them to the fainting couch?

    Their organization often appears to be doing good work, especially in third-world nations and where women have few rights. Their record in the U.S. is a little more iffy. Making mad money is one hell of a motivator, though, and since they found a way to do so while helping people, good on them.

    I’m not a fan of pro sports, but I do think it’s reasonable that athletes are paid so much. Their work hits their bodies hard, so their medical expenses can be devastating in retirement. I actually think more needs to be done to maintain a decent standard of living for not-top-tier athletes, the NFL, etc., can afford to have them cared for.

  28. 28.

    different-church-lady

    April 23, 2015 at 9:52 pm

    I know! And such small portions!

  29. 29.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 9:52 pm

    @askew:

    The problem with these trade deals is that there is no enforcement of labor or environmental violations.

    Read only half my post, did you?

    If Obama manages to negotiate labor and environmental protections, which have been typical shortcomings of these types of trade agreements, Republicans will have given away their ability to amend the agreement. An awesome prospect considering that the Rs control both houses of Congress.

    Hearing Obama speak about trade agreements, he seems aware of this historical shortcoming. Even the lack of environmental rules weighs against the American business and worker, since lightly regulated countries are able to produce more cheaply.

    You:

    The Colombian Trade Deal that Obama said had protections in it has been a huge mess. Over 100 people have been murdered for trying to start unions since CAFTA was passed.

    These nations have historically weak governments and may need help in enforcing these requirements, the behavior described sounds pretty private-sector-oriented.

    And Fast Track ensures that there can be no amendments to the TPP once it is signed.

    You mean before it is signed. After it is signed, presidents will be able to continue negotiating trade policy as always. This isn’t the last word ever on Pacific trade policy.

  30. 30.

    NotMax

    April 23, 2015 at 9:56 pm

    the latest pay for play accusations launched in the NY Times

    Regardless of any merit (or lack thereof), it’s been quite upfront that no payment was made so far as NYT is involved.

  31. 31.

    Ripley

    April 23, 2015 at 9:57 pm

    @different-church-lady: Perfect!

  32. 32.

    Baud

    April 23, 2015 at 9:59 pm

    @NotMax:

    Yeah, but the right-wing hack gets Village cred by having the NYT run his allegations.

  33. 33.

    samiam

    April 23, 2015 at 10:00 pm

    Can always count on wr0ng way Cole to be easily let the worg way.

    Just completely ignores there are NO connections. Niether the right win Hack book writing grifter or NY times found any.

    But no…you don’t want to focus on that detail burriend in the story. You want to go with the while where there’s smoke there’s fire angle which is precisely the conclusion the RW grifter hack wants you to come up with.

    Once a gullible RW voter always a gullible RW voter.

  34. 34.

    GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)

    April 23, 2015 at 10:01 pm

    I heard Michael Smerkonish droning on about this shit. I nearly had a seizure.

    I fucking hate the anti-clinton wurlitzer.

  35. 35.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 10:04 pm

    @efgoldman: I was thinking more like resources for law their own enforcement. Weak South American governments will have to take their own towns and nations away from crime syndicates and overly powerful industries. Fortunately, the U.S. can actually be pretty effective at applying pressure to an industry thats abusing workers, if it were so inclined. Plus South American law enforcement personnel are likely far more amenable to training and adopting new techniques than many of the Afghan folk and Iraqis we’ve been working with lately.

  36. 36.

    different-church-lady

    April 23, 2015 at 10:04 pm

    @efgoldman: Wow, love that kind of hockey.

  37. 37.

    SteveLCo

    April 23, 2015 at 10:05 pm

    I’m not a big fan of the Clintons, Bill is basically getting paid back for his passage of nafta and getting china most favored nation status.

    HOWEVER I wonder when the lamestream press is going to point out that scott walker is going to be a bought and paid for shill for the koch brothers?

  38. 38.

    David Koch

    April 23, 2015 at 10:05 pm

    ¡SEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSST!

  39. 39.

    NotMax

    April 23, 2015 at 10:06 pm

    @Baud

    Fine, then call it that instead of what it is not.

    “Pay for play” is about as accurate as is “death panel.”

  40. 40.

    Helen

    April 23, 2015 at 10:09 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    You forgot your /s tag, right? Of course you did.

  41. 41.

    Suzanne

    April 23, 2015 at 10:09 pm

    I’ll take some cheese on my nothingburger, thanks.

  42. 42.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 10:10 pm

    @efgoldman: Man, someone’s cynical tonight. I get that it can be hard getting countries to enforce labor protections that they don’t want to. Still, it’s better to try to get them in place than not. If countries aren’t meeting their obligations, that’s something to deal with as it arises.

    The TPP is likely not perfect, but neither is the status quo. I think it would behoove us to await the details of the agreement before rending our garments and/or lighting ourselves on fire.

  43. 43.

    different-church-lady

    April 23, 2015 at 10:12 pm

    @Kropadope:

    I think it would behoove us to await the details of the agreement before rending our garments and/or lighting ourselves on fire.

    In other words, you don’t understand what the internet is for?

  44. 44.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 10:14 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    what the internet is for?

    It needn’t always be thus. We are, after all, the ones we were waiting for. We are the change we seek. Disappointing, I know.

  45. 45.

    Adam L Silverman

    April 23, 2015 at 10:15 pm

    John,

    The NY Times tried to turn this into something back in 2008 and it was quickly debunked by Forbes – of all publications. Here’s the link to the Forbes article:
    http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/12/giustra-clinton-kazakhstan-pf-ii-in_rl_0912croesus_inl.html

  46. 46.

    different-church-lady

    April 23, 2015 at 10:16 pm

    @Kropadope: The fancy word for what you’re describing is “entropy”.

  47. 47.

    Marc McKenzie

    April 23, 2015 at 10:17 pm

    @Kropadope: Tactical Republicans!? What the fuck does that mean?

  48. 48.

    David Koch

    April 23, 2015 at 10:20 pm

    These scandals are just gonna grow. The Clintons are just tooo corrupt. They’re human scandal/drama machines. It’s just going to grow and grow and grow.

    If you want a women president then you better start begging Elizabeth Warren or Kirsten Gillibrand.

  49. 49.

    Belafon

    April 23, 2015 at 10:22 pm

    @Kropadope:

    I’m not a fan of pro sports, but I do think it’s reasonable that athletes are paid so much. Their work hits their bodies hard, so their medical expenses can be devastating in retirement. I actually think more needs to be done to maintain a decent standard of living for not-top-tier athletes, the NFL, etc., can afford to have them cared for.

    Plus, it’s entertainment. If Hollywood entertainers are going to earn as much as they do, then the sports world should as well.

  50. 50.

    Belafon

    April 23, 2015 at 10:22 pm

    @David Koch: How many actual scandals are there?

  51. 51.

    Helen

    April 23, 2015 at 10:23 pm

    @efgoldman:

    OK, this isn’t an open or sports thread, but the Hawks and Predators just went eleven minutes+++ without a whistle.

    PFFFFTTT!! Speaking of ELEVEN, the Mets just went ELEVEN games without a loss. That’s right the NY METS have an eleven game winning streak.

    Next up: Sweeping the Junkies…..I mean Yankees, this weekend.

    In honor of Steve Gilliard “FUCK THE FUCKING YANKEES”

  52. 52.

    Baud

    April 23, 2015 at 10:26 pm

    @efgoldman:

    I’m waiting for Hillary’s naked mopping scandal to come to light.

  53. 53.

    ruemara

    April 23, 2015 at 10:26 pm

    Christ on a cracker. The Hillary haters are as awful as the PUMAs were & are. There is nothing that cannot be said against the bullshit scandals without it being that you think Hils is inevitable. And you’d think the fact that right wing types are joining them to decry the crowning of Hillary Clinton would make them think, but naaaaa. Jesus.

  54. 54.

    David Koch

    April 23, 2015 at 10:27 pm

    Man, Lawrence O’Donnell just ripped Clinton to shreds.

  55. 55.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    April 23, 2015 at 10:29 pm

    @Helen:

    PFFFFTTT!! Speaking of ELEVEN, the Mets just went ELEVEN games without a loss. That’s right the NY METS have an eleven game winning streak.

    Let me know when the Mets winning streak approaches 62 games.

  56. 56.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 10:30 pm

    @Marc McKenzie:

    Tactical Republicans!? What the fuck does that mean?

    It means they fully embrace the MSM and Republican-created framing for the world, the “big lie.” When they have an honest line of attack and a dishonest line of attack, they will choose the dishonest, as any acknowledgment of empirical reality, even if used against your enemies, weakens the big lie. (see 2008 campaign “experience” and “Obama weak on national security”)

    They also are top-down managers and prefer fight over compromise. This approach helped doom 90s healthcare reform and 2008 campaign Clinton didn’t seem to grasp that lesson.

    Also, they are shameless self-promoters and succeed in doing so despite their record of not-much-success.

    They embrace the tactics of the right and it could lead the Dems down the same path, but Clinton supporters, like the Clintons themselves and the Rs, don’t want to discuss the shortcomings of this approach. For starters, in the MSM INOKIYAD.

  57. 57.

    askew

    April 23, 2015 at 10:30 pm

    @David Koch:

    Really? Twitter is saying he gave them a tongue bath.

  58. 58.

    Elizabelle

    April 23, 2015 at 10:31 pm

    Maybe this will crystallize the choice.

    USA Today profile of that nice Charles Koch.

    WICHITA — Charles Koch and his industrial empire are mounting an aggressive new defense of his company and his political advocacy, with the billionaire insisting his work to help elect Republicans is rooted in his decades-long quest to “increase well-being in society.”

    Because if there’s anything Republicans can be counted on to do, it’s increasing society’s well-being.

    ETA: It made me happy to hear he gets daily death threats. Also that he lives in a house within the corporate gated compound. Kochland!

  59. 59.

    Baud

    April 23, 2015 at 10:32 pm

    @efgoldman:

    But the only way I’m not filling in the little oval next to the Democrat’s name, no matter who it is, is if I’m in a coffin.

    And you call yourself a Democrat.

  60. 60.

    different-church-lady

    April 23, 2015 at 10:32 pm

    @askew: Really? My gosh, it’s almost as though everybody everywhere is full of shit.

  61. 61.

    David Koch

    April 23, 2015 at 10:34 pm

    How many damned millions does he need. We decry people leaving Congress for lobbying jobs to make a couple million, I’d argue that raising 100 million in a decade just for speaking is just as bad.

    You’re not being fair. You have to remember when they left the White House in 2000 they were “flat broke”. He was living on a mere government pension and she on a government job; living paycheck to paycheck to pay the mortgages on their two mansions.

  62. 62.

    AxelFoley

    April 23, 2015 at 10:35 pm

    @Kropadope:

    However, they don’t know the full details of the agreement. If Obama manages to negotiate labor and environmental protections, which have been typical shortcomings of these types of trade agreements, Republicans will have given away their ability to amend the agreement. An awesome prospect considering that the Rs control both houses of Congress.

    Hearing Obama speak about trade agreements, he seems aware of this historical shortcoming. Even the lack of environmental rules weighs against the American business and worker, since lightly regulated countries are able to produce more cheaply.

    The fast track isn’t approval. Wait until the full agreement is on the table before declaring that Obama sold us out, a declaration which seems to always come to naught.

    Thank you. Why does THIS President still not get the benefit of the doubt from the left?

    Fuckin chicken little emos piss me off with this bullshit.

  63. 63.

    lamh36

    April 23, 2015 at 10:35 pm

    My thoughts on 2016, at this point IDGAF!!!!

    Fuq the scandals, fuq the press, fuq the Repubs, and fug politicians in general, on both damn sides.

    Just point me to my polling places on the correct election day or primary day, and I’ll vote for the Dem nominee.

    I’m just done even talking about it, tired of reading about it, and just right now waiting for it to be over.

  64. 64.

    Corner Stone

    April 23, 2015 at 10:37 pm

    @AxelFoley:

    Thank you. Why does THIS President still not get the benefit of the doubt from the left?

    GFY, ONT. NAFTA was straight up bullshit. So was CAFTA. Now we get to wait on our heels until TPP comes rammed down our throat?

  65. 65.

    Corner Stone

    April 23, 2015 at 10:39 pm

    @different-church-lady: I think she means black twitter is saying O’Donnell is giving them a tongue bath.

  66. 66.

    Mary G

    April 23, 2015 at 10:39 pm

    The really sad thing is that I cannot find it in me to care enough to read about it or decide what I think. I’m voting for her in November 2016, but this stuff, meh.

  67. 67.

    David Koch

    April 23, 2015 at 10:40 pm

    @efgoldman: did Eleanor Roosevelt leave the WH and shill for 100 million dollars for tar sands and Goldman Sachs?

  68. 68.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 10:41 pm

    @efgoldman:

    Because ultimately that’s what being a purity pony can get you.

    So, should I not criticize anyone nominally on the left when I see a problem? Not holding politicians to account and voting for them just for the sake of which party they belong to makes it so that neither party has any incentive to seek our votes.

    Watch out or pretty soon neither party will appoint good justices.

  69. 69.

    Mary G

    April 23, 2015 at 10:42 pm

    @lamh36: This.

  70. 70.

    Violet

    April 23, 2015 at 10:42 pm

    These threads are exhausting.

  71. 71.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    April 23, 2015 at 10:43 pm

    I don’t trust the guy peddling the story, but the Clintons behavior really is, at best, unseemly. Pretty much everyone here points out, correctly, how corrupt the way that Republican candidates get donations from donors is. They do so despite the lack of any explicit quid pro quos. Well, the same thing is going on with the Clintons.

    The foundation took donations from entities that had business before the State Department. Their defenders are pointing out that no one can really point to any decisions that were obviously connected to donations, but you know what? I don’t care. This is corruption when Republicans do it, and it’s corruption when the Clintons do it. One of the ethical obligations that come with public service is that you don’t take money from the people who have any connections to your job. In a position with responsibilities as broad as Secretary of State, that means pretty much anyone engaged in international business.

    I find the tendency to excuse the Clintons for this because Republicans are worse (and they are) to be weak.

  72. 72.

    Elizabelle

    April 23, 2015 at 10:44 pm

    @Mary G: I am wondering if political news sites and newspapers will realize a lot of people have checked out early and are not reading their swill.

    I don’t read about the Klown Kar GOP, and I didn’t read anything about Clinton either.

    Not going to make a difference in my vote. Democrats all the way. Yellow Dog Ballot Line Fever.

  73. 73.

    Helen

    April 23, 2015 at 10:44 pm

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym:

    My favorite streak is the Columbia University football team’s 44 game losing streak; from 1983 to 1988. That’s right. An entire undergraduate class went through Columbia without seeing their team win one game. Awesome. Got my graduate degree there in 1998 and they were still talking about it.

  74. 74.

    MomSense

    April 23, 2015 at 10:45 pm

    @lamh36:

    Did you hear that Idris Elba is going to be in the next Star Trek movie? There will be a new role created for him .

  75. 75.

    Kay

    April 23, 2015 at 10:46 pm

    @askew:

    It’ll be a big issue in this state. It’s already part of the upcoming senate race:

    U.S. Sen. Rob Portman was a model of equanimity late last week, even when warning top White House officials that he’s got demands for this country’s latest free-trade deal.
    His likely 2016 election opponent took a more blunt tone.

    His likely opponent is Ted Strickland, former governor.

    It’s jjust toxic in this state.

    In 2010 I went to a political event and I was talking to these young men who were passing out swag for Portman. They were saying Portman was for “fair trade”. “Fair trade” is the labor retort to “free trade”. Rob Portman isn’t a “fair trader”. It means something- it’s a two word description for a specific position. it’s not just the ordinary meaning of the word “fair”. I asked them if they had been told to say that exact phrase. Yup. They had no idea what it meant.

    So Portman knows how loaded it is in this state. Portman didn’t run on “free trade” in this state.

  76. 76.

    Elizabelle

    April 23, 2015 at 10:50 pm

    Charles Koch is going after the stoner vote.

    In his view, less government intervention means more opportunities for individuals to thrive. [Ownership society! None of that pesky Medicare and Social Security.] He sees government’s primary role as “coercion” and says it should apply that force in limited circumstances, such as national defense, public safety, enforcing settlements and preventing the spread of communicable disease.

    He maintains that the government’s role in most everything else — from licensing cab drivers to regulating banks — ought to be up for debate. His voice rises to a near-shout when talking about criminal laws and the civil forfeiture of assets in criminal investigations

    “If somebody smokes a joint, we’re gonna go in and bust them? We’re gonna raid houses in case somebody has a banned substance? Confiscate their houses?”

    “My God,” he said, “if people don’t see that as an abuse of force, of too much government, then we’re just not communicating.“

  77. 77.

    srv

    April 23, 2015 at 10:54 pm

    @lamh36:

    I’m just done even talking about it, tired of reading about it, and just right now waiting for it to be over.

    You emo surrender monkeys are the ones enabling the Hillary Inevitability Syndrome. At least some of your liberal ilk are trying to fight for a non-radioactive candidate and stop the unholy becrowning.

    Embrace the common cause with your enemies on the right and fight the good fight against her dynastic realm. What would your Forefathers do?

  78. 78.

    randy khan

    April 23, 2015 at 10:54 pm

    Of everything I’ve read, the least concerning to me is that entities that paid Bill Clinton to speak also made donations to the foundation. He picks and chooses his speaking engagements (at a rate that averages around $200K per pop, he can afford to be selective if he wants), and it’s not at all uncommon for people who are in demand to suggest that perhaps part of the fee ought to go to a favorite charity.

  79. 79.

    Goblue72

    April 23, 2015 at 10:55 pm

    @Gvg: I’ve seen the house BC was born in, in Hope, AK. It’s basically a one room shack in a crappy dirt poor rural town surrounded by miles and miles of dirt farms. The biggest event of the year was the Tri-County Watermelon Festival. His mother was basically the town tramp.

    I begrudge him nothing.

  80. 80.

    Elizabelle

    April 23, 2015 at 10:58 pm

    Another USA Today story: the pregnant and fired Popeye’s employee has been offered her job back.

    CHANNELVIEW, Texas — The pregnant Popeyes manager who was fired less than 36 hours after a robbery has been offered her job back.

    Marissa Holcomb, a mother of three with a fourth child on the way, had a meeting with Z & H Foods owner Amin Dhanani on Wednesday,.

    “He just apologized and pretty much offered me if I wanted to go back to his business and work there again,” Holcomb said.

    …. Dhanani refused to talk on camera Wednesday, but his company released a statement that reads:

    “We deeply regret the way this matter was handled. We are committed to continuing to work with Ms. Holcomb, and we apologize to her, our employees, the public and other franchise operators of the Popeyes system. We have let them down and are committed to do better.”

    … Holcomb is not only being offered her old position, but $2,000 in back pay. For the pregnant mother of three, the decision is tough.

    “I do need a way to support my kids,” she says. “I don’t want to go back to a business where I’m treated the same and I just get pushed back out if something else happened.”

    $2,000 in back pay? What’s up with that?

  81. 81.

    David Koch

    April 23, 2015 at 11:00 pm

    @efgoldman: The impeachment was bullshit. But how does that make their gluttony and greed and shilling for disgusting harmful interests okay?

  82. 82.

    Elizabelle

    April 23, 2015 at 11:01 pm

    @Violet:

    These threads are exhausting.

    Only if you read them.

  83. 83.

    magurakurin

    April 23, 2015 at 11:05 pm

    Ed Kilgore’s take is pretty accurate I think

    That sort of question is always easier to ask in retrospect, of course. Maybe HRC should have avoided any involvement with the Clinton Foundation not only while serving as Secretary of State but while mulling a presidential campaign. But you might as well just ask why the Clintons took the risk of setting up the Foundation and pursuing its undoubted charitable objects altogether, or why they didn’t just retire from politics, or why they ever left Arkansas to enter national politics knowing the kind of hatreds and suspicions that would pursue them. Once you are dealing with behavior based not on any legal or ethical standard, but on the “appearances” standard, the opportunities for second-guessing are endless, and their direction will, of course, be dictated by partisan and personal agendas.

    The timing of this particular “wave” is unfortunate for HRC in that it will be promoted not just by Republicans who are trying to take her down a notch or two but by Democrats who may think this is the last best chance for an explosion that will blow her right out of the race and bring in Elizabeth Warren or Sherrod Brown or some other “true progressive.” And beyond political calculations, one of the things about violating “appearances” standards is that it confirms the prejudices of those who are already convinced the Clintons are either (a) corrupt secular-socialists engaged in a global betrayal of America, or (b) corrupt pseudo-liberals in thrall to moneyed interest everywhere.

  84. 84.

    Kay

    April 23, 2015 at 11:10 pm

    @Kropadope:

    He can’t really answer the “landing at a new lower level” issue, though. They aren’t afraid that standards won’t go up in other countries. They’re afraid that there will be a leveling effect, and we’ll move to the (improved) but still lower level of those countries. That’s a legitimate fear, and “higher than rock bottom in other countries!” isn’t responsive to it. They don’t want to lose. They’re not even contemplating “winning”, because them “winning” anything isn’t on the table.

  85. 85.

    David Koch

    April 23, 2015 at 11:10 pm

    @magurakurin: Kilgore is a longtime paid stooge of the DLC

  86. 86.

    David Koch

    April 23, 2015 at 11:13 pm

    @efgoldman: No, I voted for Obama because:

    ☑ Landmark peace agreement with Iran
    ☑ Regulated CO2 – cut emissions by 30%
    ☑ Ended Bush’s war on Iraq
    ☑ Withdrawing all troops from Afghanistan
    ☑ Kept the US out of war in Syria, Iran, and Ukraine
    ☑ Repealed DADT
    ☑ Overturned DOMA
    ☑ Enacted Federal ENDA
    ☑ Endorsed Gay Marriage
    ☑ Set strong Net Neutrality regulations
    ☑ Raised car millage to 55 mpg
    ☑ Rescued the Auto Industry
    ☑ Prevented a 2nd Great Depression
    ☑ Ended Bush’s tax cuts for the rich
    ☑ Brought health insurance to 32,500,000 million people
    ☑ Nomalized relations with Cuba after 54 years
    ☑ Stopped Keystone Pipeline
    ☑ Enacted Dodd-Frank financial reform
    ☑ Deferred to Colorado’s and Washington’s pot laws instead of using federal preemption
    ☑ Overturned the ban on stem cell research
    ☑ Saved millions of Latinos from deportation
    ☑ Enacted free contraceptives for women
    ☑ Enacted 6 weeks maternity leave for federal workers
    ☑ Extended Social Security benefits to gay couples.
    ☑ Eliminated color coded terror alerts
    ☑ Rebuilt FEMA
    ☑ Appointed first 11 opnely gay judges on Federal bench
    ☑ Appointed first Latina to Supreme Court
    ☑ Appointed first female Solicitor General
    ☑ Appointed first femaled Federal Reserve Chairwoman
    ☑ Apponted 41% of female judges to Federal Bench
    ☑ Ended rescission, pre-existing conditions, lifetime caps
    ☑ Enacted Fair Sentencing Act
    ☑ Ended federal criminal asset forfeiture
    ☑ Ended gender discrimination in the Military
    ☑ Enacted Consumer Financial Protection Bureau
    ☑ Enacted Lilly Ledbetter Act
    ☑ Enacted Mathew Sheppard Hate Crimes Act
    ☑ Enacted Credit Card Reform Act
    ☑ Enacted Food Safety Act
    ☑ Eliminated banks from federal student loans
    ☑ Found bin Laden
    ☢ Reduced Nuclear arms with Russia by 66%
    ☑ Provided crucial finacing for Telsa’s electric car
    ☑ Negotiated Co2 reduction accord with China
    ☑ Expanded SCHIP and Pell Grants
    ☑ Syria surrendered their WMDs
    ☑ Enacted world program to secure loose fissionable material
    ☑ Saved movie “The Interview” from being censored and buried by Sony Pictures
    ☑ Secured release of POW Bowe Bergdahl
    ☑ Saved Yazidis and Benghazi from genocide
    ☑ Broke the Color Barrier

    Obama has accomplished all this in only six years, in the face unpresented obstruction by the wingnuts and the corporate media.

  87. 87.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 11:15 pm

    @efgoldman: Reasonable people can debate that appointment and come on different sides of it. However, the constant stream of ethically questionable decision making and cult of personality type BS are truly dangerous.

    In fact, I used to think the only person who would determine whether I voted for Hillary Clinton would be Hillary Clinton. Her early campaign activity has actually moved me pretty solidly in the benefit of the doubt territory.However, her most ardent supporters with their demands of fealty are really exacerbating my antipathy for the Clintons. This “you gotta support them because they’re the Democrat and don’t you dare discuss their shortcomings” attitude basically confirms all my worst suspicions; the inability to work with dissenters, the enemies listing, the Republican-level failure to engage reality, and so on.

  88. 88.

    David Koch

    April 23, 2015 at 11:19 pm

    @Kropadope: SEXIST!

  89. 89.

    Valdivia

    April 23, 2015 at 11:19 pm

    @Kropadope:

    exactly what I was going to say. The rush with which so many people today declared this the worst thing ever without the information. Too much outrage so little information.

  90. 90.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 11:19 pm

    @Kay: Well, as things stand U.S. workers are already losing position, both from fewer available jobs and the disintegration of workplace standards. Since I don’t believe our old trade agreements are going away any time soon, our best chance to fix this is through new trade agreements.

    Unless one is against trade agreements simply for being a trade agreement, but that seems fairly short-sighted. We’re not trying to disengage from the world here, we need customers.

  91. 91.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 11:20 pm

    @David Koch: For real, bruh?

  92. 92.

    mai naem mobile

    April 23, 2015 at 11:22 pm

    I am no fan of the Clintons but who is Bill Clinton supposed to give paid speeches to where its going to be okay. If he gives it toba charity then he’ll be told that he should have done it for free. A trade organization – conflict of interest, private corporation – conflict of interest, foreign country – conflict of interest. If he makes money writing a book – well, what media conglomerate owns the publisher -conflict of interest. The guy was POTUS and,yes, is used to a certain lifestyle.And his presidential pension isn’t going to cut it.

  93. 93.

    Kay

    April 23, 2015 at 11:22 pm

    @Kropadope:

    If you said to them “US standards are going up AND we’ll insist these other places put some protections in” THAT would be “winning”, because they’d be ahead :)

    There’s truth to it. There;s a high and a low right? They want both- a higher bar than what they have now in the US AND a higher bar linternationally. One would want to move that whole bar up, rather than just one end. That would be “winning” to them, understandably, I think.

  94. 94.

    chris9059

    April 23, 2015 at 11:22 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck:
    “If there was sign of impropriety, like spending a congressional career voting for certain interests and then being hired by those interests as soon as you left office, that might be another matter.”

    Doesn’t signing Gramm-Leach and the rest of financial deregulation then taking millions in speaking fees from this same deregulated industry count as a sign of impropriety?

  95. 95.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 11:24 pm

    @efgoldman: It’ll be tough for her to have a worthwhile primary challenge without discussing her record. Thought policing is helping to keep the “inevitable” mantle on her shoulders.

  96. 96.

    David Koch

    April 23, 2015 at 11:24 pm

    @Kropadope: no.

  97. 97.

    lamh36

    April 23, 2015 at 11:26 pm

    @MomSense: yes, I heard. I was afraid they were going to make him a Klingon and hide that beautiful face, but Simon Pegg (who I love) who is co-writing the movie says Idris will be a totally new villain.

    Can’t wait.

    BTW, I’m still google stalking Idris Elba, but I’ve we are no longer married :-)

    Posted this to my FB last weekend…lol

    I regret to inform you all, that me and my fake hubby Idris Elba have decided to part ways. We spenT many wonderful fake years together, but all good things eventually come to and end. He was too busy with work, juggling ghetto hood rats and makeup artists, and just all around dirty dawging it. But we will remain fake friends, and I will continue my google stalking efforts whenever new hot pics are available. Please respect our fake privacy at this time of extreme fake heartbreak… :-)

  98. 98.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 11:27 pm

    @Kay:

    There’s truth to it. There;s a high and a low right? They want both- a higher bar than what they have now in the US AND a higher bar linternationally. One would want to move that whole bar up, rather than just one end. That would be “winning” to them, understandably, I think.

    I think you misunderstand me, not only do I want both sides of the bar to be raised, but I am arguing that one side can not be truly be raised without the other. Our old trade agreements not only have weakened the position of our workers but also, for example, created such a dire situation among Chinese workers that factories require suicide nets.

  99. 99.

    magurakurin

    April 23, 2015 at 11:27 pm

    @David Koch:

    And beyond political calculations, one of the things about violating “appearances” standards is that it confirms the prejudices of those who are already convinced the Clintons are either (a) corrupt secular-socialists engaged in a global betrayal of America, or (b) corrupt pseudo-liberals in thrall to moneyed interest everywhere.

  100. 100.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 11:30 pm

    @efgoldman:

    That was pretty much conventional wisdom at this point in 2007, too.

    Right, and in 2007 the Clinton dissenters didn’t let themselves be beat into submission, despite the best efforts of her supporters. Still, the attempted thought policing continues and may succeed this time, given that this go around there is no stunningly compelling alternative like there was 8 years ago.

  101. 101.

    Emma

    April 23, 2015 at 11:30 pm

    @David Koch: And Democrats who couldn’t wait to yell about betrayal. Don’t forget those.

    I am at the mean bitch level of hoping we do get Jeb or Walker for president. Just so I can tell the purity trolls to sit down and shut up.

  102. 102.

    Sabrina Feldman

    April 23, 2015 at 11:31 pm

    Brian Fallon debunks the NY Times article here. It really looks like much ado about nothing:

    https://medium.com/@brianefallon/clinton-cash-nyt-fail-to-prove-connection-between-clinton-russian-purchase-of-uranium-assets-797a71cb40b0

  103. 103.

    David Koch

    April 23, 2015 at 11:36 pm

    @Kay: I was thinking, any company can move to Mexico or China right now. How would TPP change that. It wouldn’t. Any company that wanted to greedily pull up stakes to lower labor and environment costs will be able to do so whether TPP passes or fails because of existing trade arrangements (NAFTA, PNTR).

    People act as if TPP passes factories can leave – but they can do that already..

    I also don’t get how progressives want to end the trade embargo with Cuba and trade with them fully and completely, but at the same time they don’t want to trade with Chile.

  104. 104.

    Omnes Omnibus

    April 23, 2015 at 11:43 pm

    @Kropadope: Attempted thought policing? WTF?

  105. 105.

    David Koch

    April 23, 2015 at 11:44 pm

    @efgoldman:I’m voting for Hillary if she’s the nominee. That said, how was Cole’s post wrong?

  106. 106.

    Howard Beale IV

    April 23, 2015 at 11:44 pm

    @Elizabelle: Did the Koch’s publicly come out against the recent renewal of the PATRIOT Act?

    (I’m hearing crickets…..)

  107. 107.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 11:49 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Says the thought commissioner.

  108. 108.

    Omnes Omnibus

    April 23, 2015 at 11:51 pm

    @Kropadope: Please explain.

  109. 109.

    Howard Beale IV

    April 23, 2015 at 11:51 pm

    @David Koch: TPP introduces this little detail called the Investors Settlement Dispute System ISDS. Both Sen. Warren and the CATO institute are against it, for it renders sovereign rights as inferior to a arbitration panel. And if you want to see how that works, Jon Oliver shows exactly how that works when it came to Australia’s plain packaging law when it came to cigarettes.

  110. 110.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    April 23, 2015 at 11:52 pm

    @Kropadope: I haven’t bothered to try to read all the nitty-gritty on the TPP and the like. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if a big part of it is increasing protections on patents and trademarks (which can be good or bad, depending on how it’s done).

    Smartypants has a sensible (it seems to me) post on it here:

    Recently Wikileaks leaked a chapter related to investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS). It allows foreign companies and investors to sue federal, state, or local governments over changes to their laws that unfairly affect their businesses and to have those suits heard before a tribunal with the World Bank or the United Nations. Opponents of TPP fear that this will be used to sue U.S. jurisdictions for regulations related to climate change or labor laws.

    But as this article points out, there are a few things to keep in mind:

    * This kind of ISDS is already included in 3,000 trade agreements around the globe, including 51 in which the U.S. is currently involved,

    * Over the last 25 years, the U.S. has experienced 17 investor-state cases, 13 of which went before tribunals, and has not lost one (for comparison, during that same time the federal government was sued 700,000 in domestic courts),

    * Even if the U.S. lost a case before an ISDS tribunal, they do not have the power to change laws,

    * Leaked documents contain mitigating language like ““nothing in this chapter” should prevent a member country from regulating investment activity for “environmental, health or other regulatory objectives.” So there is clearly an attempt by negotiators to protect critical areas.

    So excuse me if I’m not ready to set my hair on fire yet about all that.

    Until we can review the actual agreement, the final area I consider in all this is the track record of those who are lined up on either side of this issue. Many of those who oppose TPP are the same ones who thought that Dodd/Frank was weak tea and Obamacare was simply a give-away to private insurers. It is impossible to avoid the question of whether or not their opposition is more about the agreement’s lack of purity when, as I stated above, the question is really whether it’s good enough.

    She’s got some later posts about the issues as well – worth a look.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  111. 111.

    hamletta

    April 23, 2015 at 11:53 pm

    I’m just not willing to go with the hysteria on this. I was 29 when Bill Clinton was elected, and I lived through all the bullshit and kept my sanity thanks to Media Whores and Bartcop.

    People go insane when it comes to the Clintons, and I think it’s ridiculous. When people start talking about those evil Clintons, my eyes just glaze over.

    The Clinton Foundation isn’t a fucking slush fund; it actually does things. I think the Clintons are trying to do some good in the world.

    I’m reserving judgment on whatever this latest bullshit is until I hear from Gene Lyons and/or Joe Conason. They seem to be the only reporters who can keep their wits about them when it comes to the Clintons.

    I’d love to see my imaginary high school boyfriend Martin O’Malley give Hillary a run for her money, because it’s good politics, but I’ll be happy to vote for her in 2016.

  112. 112.

    Kropadope

    April 23, 2015 at 11:57 pm

    @hamletta: You wouldn’t know it from the ensuing conversation, but my first post defended the work of their foundation (mostly) and their compensation (completely). The demand for fealty is the problem and that shit runs from Hillary right downhill to every dedicated supporter.

  113. 113.

    Kropadope

    April 24, 2015 at 12:01 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: I have had several conversations with you where you insisted that any person of a left persuasion MUST vote for the Democrat, because a Democrat is always better than a Republican, details be damned. You bolstered this case, not by pointing out any particular accomplishments of Hillary or reason why she would be good for office, but rather by mischaracterizing everything I wrote for the whole post.

    I have had the pie filter suggested to me. I won’t use it, but I think of you and Corner Stone briefly every time I hear about it.

  114. 114.

    Elizabelle

    April 24, 2015 at 12:04 am

    @Howard Beale IV: Crickets in the Kochs’ gated corporate compound?

    Indeed you did.

  115. 115.

    Howard Beale IV

    April 24, 2015 at 12:06 am

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Be careful of what you ask for. You may get it.

  116. 116.

    Omnes Omnibus

    April 24, 2015 at 12:12 am

    @Kropadope: Well, in virtually every case, I would say that a voting for the Democrat in a D vs R race is always the best decision. My biggest concern right now is that too many people on the left are buying into every rumor about the odds-on favorite for the Democratic nomination without applying any critical thinking skills. I don’t know if HRC is going to be the candidate I vote for in my primary next year; at the same time, I don’t really see the point of savaging her. If one has an alternate candidate, tell us about him or her. Provide links to speeches. Do something positive. Otherwise, to me, it comes out as simply being against Clinton and not for someone else.

    As far as my alleged mischaracterization of things you said, a link or two would be helpful.

  117. 117.

    David Koch

    April 24, 2015 at 12:13 am

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    Many of those who oppose TPP are the same ones who thought that Dodd/Frank was weak tea and Obamacare was simply a give-away to private insurers.

    This

    Also too, This

  118. 118.

    socraticsilence

    April 24, 2015 at 12:25 am

    Honestly, Is there a concrete reason that the Clinton team can’t be more like the Obama team– keep things tight, don’t freaking skirt the line constantly on every issue (where even if you don’t break the law you just run right to the edge)– I mean its been nice to have even the establishment loving villagers basically laugh off various Obama “scandals” why can’t the Clinton’s be more like that?

  119. 119.

    Omnes Omnibus

    April 24, 2015 at 12:27 am

    @socraticsilence: Obama is a once in a lifetime politician.

  120. 120.

    hamletta

    April 24, 2015 at 12:40 am

    @Kropadope:

    The demand for fealty

    Oh, my! You must have really important fealty, that it’s been demanded and all.

    I heard all this shit when I was a (sane) Dean supporter.

    You want another candidate? Then get off this blog and start organizing. Go out and do some canvassing in sleet or blazing heat.

    Then come back and talk to me about fealty.

  121. 121.

    Omnes Omnibus

    April 24, 2015 at 12:45 am

    @hamletta: Dayum.

  122. 122.

    Kropadope

    April 24, 2015 at 12:56 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    My biggest concern right now is that too many people on the left are buying into every rumor about the odds-on favorite for the Democratic nomination without applying any critical thinking skills.

    My biggest concern is that her devout supporters are demanding criticism-free support of HRC without applying any critical thinking skills. If you actually engaged me in conversation instead of dismissing every bit of criticism as unwarranted, you might realize that I have certainly thought out my reasons for not supporting Hillary

    Even in this post, where I started off defending the Clintons, I get hit (not by you, this time) for my insufficiently pure defense. It is not enough that I point out that the particular criticism of the Clintons is wrong, I must refrain from any criticism myself, no matter how meager. It is the knee-jerk tendency that has, in this case, resulted in me criticizing Clinton even more. I respond to those who respond to me, and several of those comments were of the “No, you have to love her with your whole heart” variety.

    As far as advancing another candidate, that’s not what this thread is about. It’s about Hillary. I got off a little bit talking about the TPP, but that naturally grew out of the conversation the people here were having. I’m not gonna shoehorn in some BS about O’Malley just because it makes you feel good. Everyone here knows who’s running.

    Also, no, I am not going through months worth of posts, particularly not JC’s Hillary binge from last month, looking for the conversations in question. You know what you do and I’ll be damn sure to point it out to you every time you do it.

  123. 123.

    Kropadope

    April 24, 2015 at 12:58 am

    @hamletta: Are you being deliberately obtuse? You know full well this fealty is being demanded of every Juicer who strays from the line of “Hillary Clinton is the bestest good that ever did good and did that good well.”

  124. 124.

    Kropadope

    April 24, 2015 at 1:04 am

    @Kropadope: I also want to add:
    @hamletta:

    You want another candidate? Then get off this blog and start organizing.

    I have, for many worthy candidates. The campaign has barely started and Hillary is the only D who has announced so far.

    It also still seems to be escaping your notice that on this thread, prior to such demands being issued, what I said about them was 98% positive. That’s the problem. With some of you people it’s 100% or go home.

  125. 125.

    askew

    April 24, 2015 at 1:07 am

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    Until we can review the actual agreement, the final area I consider in all this is the track record of those who are lined up on either side of this issue. Many of those who oppose TPP are the same ones who thought that Dodd/Frank was weak tea and Obamacare was simply a give-away to private insurers. It is impossible to avoid the question of whether or not their opposition is more about the agreement’s lack of purity when, as I stated above, the question is really whether it’s good enough.

    Not me. I love Obamacare and support Dodd/Frank. I have never been on the emoprog side but the TPP stinks to high heaven and the push to fast track it is BS.

  126. 126.

    Omnes Omnibus

    April 24, 2015 at 1:08 am

    @Kropadope: My dear boy, I am not a devoted support of HRC. I articulated my position above. If it has offended you, too bad.

  127. 127.

    LT

    April 24, 2015 at 1:11 am

    1. It’s a hit piece!

    40. Gee, yeah, they lied and stuff and there’s a lot of troubling stuff here.

    WTF, Cole?

  128. 128.

    Kropadope

    April 24, 2015 at 1:14 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: That doesn’t change the fact that your one of the principal enforcers of the requirement that every criticism of Hillary, no matter how minor, must be immediately followed by “but I will support her if she is the Democratic nominee.”

  129. 129.

    askew

    April 24, 2015 at 1:15 am

    @socraticsilence:

    They can’t because they are sleazy and associate with sleazy people. Compare Carter to Bill post-presidency. Carter has done more good than Bill has and you don’t see the Carter Center embroiled in influence peddling and $$ scandals all the time. And I’d bet money that the Obama Foundation or whatever it is called will be as squeaky clean as Obama’s presidency. People on the left try to blame the Clinton scandals on everyone but the Clintons. The Clintons open themselves up to this shit by playing fast and loose with ethics.

  130. 130.

    LT

    April 24, 2015 at 1:17 am

    @Adam L Silverman: “quickly debunked by Forbes”

    By some Forbes financial writer who a year who “debunked” in the most obviously weasel worded way possible.

  131. 131.

    LT

    April 24, 2015 at 1:19 am

    John Cassidy, New Yorker:

    In this context, it is neither surprising nor scandalous that several news organizations, including the Times and the Post, have reportedly made deals with HarperCollins, Schweizer’s publisher, to view the book in advance of its publication date. “We are always willing to look at new information that could inform our coverage,” Cameron Barr, the Post’s national editor, said in a statement reported by Politico’s Dylan Byers. “Mr. Schweizer’s background and his point of view are relevant factors, but not disqualifying ones. What interests us more are his facts and whether they can be the basis for further reporting by our own staff that would be compelling to our readers. There is no financial aspect to this arrangement.”

    To repeat, there is nothing untoward about this. The job of news organizations is to ferret out newsworthy stories, check their veracity, and publish them. In this instance, they were on the case well before Schweizer’s book landed.

    http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/clinton-cash-attacks-could-end-up-aiding-hillary?mbid=social_twitter

  132. 132.

    Omnes Omnibus

    April 24, 2015 at 1:21 am

    @Kropadope: It’s a fucking blog, you twit. I express my opinion and you express yours. If I think yours is idiotic, I get to say so. If you think mine is, you get to say so as well. No one is “enforcing” anything.

  133. 133.

    fuckwit

    April 24, 2015 at 1:21 am

    @askew: This, really, is all of it for me. I think Bill in particular has always reeked of sleaze. Reagan too, and Johnson… and of course Nixon was the team to beat for sleazery until the Bush Crime Family straight up beat him. Carter never gave off that vibe, always seemed scrupulously honest. Since retiring from politics he’s been busy building houses for poor people and eradicating diseases from the developing world. Obama too, seems a total straight arrow, and I can see him doing some kind of earnest public policy thing in his retirement.

    That kind of honesty and earnestness is really what I want in my politicians, and I understand that’s a tall order– they’re politicians, after all, what do you expect, honesty? But, really, why not aim for that?

    @Omnes Omnibus: I agree. Best president in my lifetime, possibly in generations.

  134. 134.

    Kropadope

    April 24, 2015 at 1:29 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    No one is “enforcing” anything.

    Not for lack of trying. The amount of peer pressure exerted here regarding not criticizing Hillary could freeze water at room temperature. That’s certainly an attempt at force, a weak one, but an attempt.

    I don’t know if HRC is going to be the candidate I vote for in my primary next

    My dear boy, I am not a devoted support of HRC.

    You know what? I don’t think I believe you. I never see you talking up anyone else (like even less than I do), but you unfailingly show up to defend her. I also regard you as a known liar as a result of our previous conversations.

  135. 135.

    Omnes Omnibus

    April 24, 2015 at 1:30 am

    @fuckwit: Well, that is the problem. Have we been spoiled? Is it reasonable to expect that the next candidate is able to equal Obama? Or should we simply choose the best candidate who actually runs?

  136. 136.

    David Koch

    April 24, 2015 at 1:33 am

    So I’m watching a replay of Chris Hayes, and Hayes along with Michelle Goldberg of The Nation and Eric Boehlert of Media Matters all say Clintons are victims of a media “vendetta” but at the same time the Clintons leave themselves vulnerable to attacks by taking money from shady sources which is unnecessary since they’re already rich.

    “why leave yourself vulnerable” ~ Michelle Goldberg

    “why doesn’t Bill just turn down the money from a russian bank” ~ Chris Hayes

    “the Obamas never walked into these traps” ~ M Goldberg.

    This is what I and others are saying. It’s bad enough that they’re going to come after you and make stuff up, but whyhelp them, when you know the rules are different for you, by repeatedly giving them grist with foreseeable errors.

    “Hillary, there’s a rake on they ground, let’s step on it. Maybe it’ll hit us in the face, but maybe it won’t.” “Okay, Bill.”

  137. 137.

    LT

    April 24, 2015 at 1:36 am

    Democrats need a new slogan:

    We actually don’t care about money in politics. All that screaming about Citizens United was just a joke. HRC – 2016!

  138. 138.

    Omnes Omnibus

    April 24, 2015 at 1:37 am

    @Kropadope: Dude, since you aren’t willing to go into the archives to defend your position, I won’t go into them to defend mine. OTOH, my position is, and remains, what I stated above. You can believe me or not.

  139. 139.

    hamletta

    April 24, 2015 at 1:38 am

    @askew: Yes. That is true. Jimmy Carter is Simon Pure.

    Which is why he was an ineffective president.

    I’m a liberal pragmatist. My attraction to Howard Dean was based on Vermont’s early childhood health program.

    I trust the Clintons. Yeah, they’re consummate politicians. But that’s what we need. And I trust that despite all the crazy speaking fees, they’re still working for the greater good.

  140. 140.

    Omnes Omnibus

    April 24, 2015 at 1:41 am

    @LT: Obama chose to avoid public financing. He won. Do you think he would have won if he’d chosen to abide by the public finance limits? Given the legal environment, one does what one must.

  141. 141.

    TriassicSands

    April 24, 2015 at 1:42 am

    $100 million. I doubt if anyone learned anything important from any of those speeches.

  142. 142.

    Kropadope

    April 24, 2015 at 1:44 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: Like I said, I can wait to catch you in a future instance.

  143. 143.

    Omnes Omnibus

    April 24, 2015 at 1:45 am

    @TriassicSands: I doubt if anyone who paid for the privilege of hearing the speech was financially inconvenienced by the purchase of the ticket.

  144. 144.

    LT

    April 24, 2015 at 1:46 am

    @hamletta: Ineffectual is in the eye of the beholder:

    As president, Carter negotiated a peace treaty between Israel and Egypt—a ceasefire still standing today. He made human rights central to American foreign policy by cutting off funding for dictatorial regimes running torture chambers. He directed U.N. ambassador Andrew Young to make opposing apartheid in South Africa central to his work. He deregulated the trucking, airline, and beer industries, and those deregulation policies—mysteriously never mentioned by the right—led to flourishing entrepreneurialism and consumer choice in all three fields. He is the only president who has tried to start a national conversation about reducing our dependence on foreign oil through conservation and the use of alternative energy sources. And he spent four years as commander in chief of the world’s largest and most lethal military without dropping one bomb, launching one missile, or firing one shot.

    Carter’s awkward leadership style often obscured his genuine accomplishments. For example, the tone of the infamous “malaise speech” (in which that word is never used) might have been unappealing, but its content, as historian Kevin Mattson makes clear in his excellent book What the Heck Are You Up To, Mr. President?, was prescient and illustrated true leadership, as Carter challenged Americans to change their ways of thinking and living, so that they might become more prosperous, unified, and free. And there is no disputing that he brought peace to formerly violent parts of the world, advanced the agenda of human rights, and used the powers of his pulpit to start new and necessary conversations about American life and America’s role as superpower. For his trouble, the American people expelled him from office and replaced him with a man who sponsored death squads in Latin America, said ketchup was a vegetable, and in the words of Norman Mailer, “was shallow as spit on a rock.”

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/01/jimmy-carter-was-a-lot-better-president-than-almost-anyone-ever-admits.html

  145. 145.

    Omnes Omnibus

    April 24, 2015 at 1:48 am

    @Kropadope: Okay, have fun catching me enforcing a pro-HRC meme or whatever you are looking for.

  146. 146.

    Cacti

    April 24, 2015 at 1:49 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Obama chose to avoid public financing. He won. Do you think he would have won if he’d chosen to abide by the public finance limits? Given the legal environment, one does what one must.

    Indeed.

    Noble failure is still failure.

    Do we want to win elections, or good sportsmanship awards?

  147. 147.

    Omnes Omnibus

    April 24, 2015 at 1:55 am

    @Cacti: Personally, I tend toward the “good sportsmanship” side, which is one of the very many reasons I have never run for office. (My disreputable history may also be another.) Obama chose a way to win. And, me, I will support whichever Dem seems most likely to find a way to win in 2016. End of story.

  148. 148.

    askew

    April 24, 2015 at 1:56 am

    @David Koch:

    Smartest thing the Clintons did this cycle was basically to buy Media Matters. They have a reputation of being neutral and so when they go out with their Hillary talking points people think they aren’t her campaign surrogates.

  149. 149.

    LT

    April 24, 2015 at 1:59 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: @Omnes Omnibus: I’m talking about how HRC supporters, and even many non-supporting Dems, are treating this story. All the strawmen about the RW hack ignores that this is about money in politics. It’s a pretty basic story.

    Let’s be honest: If this were about candidate Jeb Bush, and his former president brother or father getting millions of dollars in donations from people related to a Russian company that now owns 51% of US uranium interests – would Dems be all over this story?

    It’s almost too ridiculous to even ask that question.

  150. 150.

    Omnes Omnibus

    April 24, 2015 at 2:04 am

    @LT: As has been noted above, that isn’t exactly what happened. The deal was done in, I believe, 2007. How does that tar the Clinton Foundation? Correct me please, if I am wrong on the facts.

  151. 151.

    Kropadope

    April 24, 2015 at 2:06 am

    @LT:

    Let’s be honest: If this were about candidate Jeb Bush, and his former president brother or father getting millions of dollars in donations from people related to a Russian company that now owns 51% of US uranium interests – would Dems be all over this story?

    And if there were shared responsibility between her and a former Republican counterpart, you can bet Hillary’s involvement would be the focal point of MSM depictions. Still doesn’t make it right.

  152. 152.

    LT

    April 24, 2015 at 2:14 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    The deal was done in, I believe, 2007.

    I love the “I believe.” It’s so *Clintonesque.

    The deal was not *done* in 2007. It was in the works, but it was not completed until afte rthe Clinton meeting:

    The two men had flown aboard Mr. Giustra’s private jet to Almaty, Kazakhstan, where they dined with the authoritarian president, Nursultan A. Nazarbayev. Mr. Clinton handed the Kazakh president a propaganda coup when he expressed support for Mr. Nazarbayev’s bid to head an international elections monitoring group, undercutting American foreign policy and criticism of Kazakhstan’s poor human rights record by, among others, his wife, then a senator.

    Within days of the visit, Mr. Giustra’s fledgling company, UrAsia Energy Ltd., signed a preliminary deal giving it stakes in three uranium mines controlled by the state-run uranium agency Kazatomprom.

    Oh that meeting wasn’t at all related! It was pure coincidence that Clinton and Giustra flew out of Kazakhstan hours after the meeting. And the fact that Giustra lied about needing the Kazakh government’s approval is completely unrealted. And the fact the later lies about the meeting in the Clinton home – also just totally unrelated stuff!

  153. 153.

    LT

    April 24, 2015 at 2:18 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: I also love that any dealings with Russia are the most evil awful things that ever existed – when it comes to Edward Snowden.

    Hillary Clinton and the US’s uranium? Meh.

  154. 154.

    AxelFoley

    April 24, 2015 at 2:19 am

    @David Koch:

    So I’m watching a replay of Chris Hayes, and Hayes along with Michelle Goldberg of The Nation and Eric Boehlert of Media Matters all say Clintons are victims of a media “vendetta” but at the same time the Clintons leave themselves vulnerable to attacks by taking money from shady sources which is unnecessary since they’re already rich.

    “why leave yourself vulnerable” ~ Michelle Goldberg

    “why doesn’t Bill just turn down the money from a russian bank” ~ Chris Hayes

    “the Obamas never walked into these traps” ~ M Goldberg.

    This is what I and others are saying. It’s bad enough that they’re going to come after you and make stuff up, but whyhelp them, when you know the rules are different for you, by repeatedly giving them grist with foreseeable errors.

    “Hillary, there’s a rake on they ground, let’s step on it. Maybe it’ll hit us in the face, but maybe it won’t.” “Okay, Bill.”

    This.

    The Clintons’ main problem is they are messy, and they give their enemies ammo to use against them.

  155. 155.

    different-church-lady

    April 24, 2015 at 5:06 am

    @magurakurin:

    But you might as well just ask why the Clintons took the risk of setting up the Foundation and pursuing its undoubted charitable objects altogether, or why they didn’t just retire from politics, or why they ever left Arkansas to enter national politics knowing the kind of hatreds and suspicions that would pursue them.

    Why were they even born, when you get right down to it?

  156. 156.

    different-church-lady

    April 24, 2015 at 5:19 am

    Keep it up people! These threads are comedy gold!

  157. 157.

    chopper

    April 24, 2015 at 7:10 am

    @Helen:

    PFFFFTTT!! Speaking of ELEVEN, the Mets just went ELEVEN games without a loss. That’s right the NY METS have an eleven game winning streak.

    and lo, I watched the angel open the seventh seal, and the mets won eleven games in a row.

  158. 158.

    brantl

    April 24, 2015 at 7:44 am

    @askew: Why not? She’s not a kid anymore. I’ve heard her speak, before, she can carry her weight.

  159. 159.

    brantl

    April 24, 2015 at 7:50 am

    @samiam:

    Once a gullible RW voter always a gullible RW voter.

    Douche, much?

  160. 160.

    Keith G

    April 24, 2015 at 7:58 am

    as I read the above comments correctly, I hope, I am left in wonder as to why Cole is taking the heat that he is. It seems to me that he was just stating the obvious. Hillary Clinton has been running for president since at least 2001 so it’s not exceptional for folks to wonder why she would be associated with activities which to use a comment above is like purposely stepping on a yard rake with the tines up turned.

  161. 161.

    Patricia Kayden

    April 24, 2015 at 8:01 am

    “I’d argue that raising 100 million in a decade just for speaking is just as bad.”

    I wouldn’t. If President Clinton can earn a billion dollars in a decade just for speaking, I say good on him. This is a capitalist country and as long as he’s not earning the $$$ through illegal means, I really don’t care. Just shows that he’s a hustler. I hope President Obama does as well when he leaves office.

    I hope Secretary Clinton can push back against all this “scandal” talk. She’s still a shoe in for the White House and the attacks against her are going to get uglier.

  162. 162.

    Sherparick

    April 24, 2015 at 8:05 am

    The problem with the story is that 1) how is this different then what the Kock Brothers and Sheldon Adelson are doing every day (see John Boehner inviting Bibi to address Congress or the Keystone Pipeline); 2) there were multiple actors in the U.S. Government outside the State Department and the Times story did not have a scintilla of evidence that anything untoward happen in the vetting process then they usual corporate lobbying (which I admit is bad enough) or more importantly, that Clinton, as Secretary of State, did anything to that affected this decision.

  163. 163.

    D58826

    April 24, 2015 at 8:48 am

    I guess my problem with all of this is that once people reach that level of government they have accumulated so many friends, contributors, conflicts of interest that it is impossible to sort it all out. Sure there were stories about Chaney and Halliburton but they ran for a day or two and then were dropped. Rummy didn’t have conflicts with his old employers? Really? And then there is the bush family. I don’t recall anyone making it an impeachable offense that Bush 41 had conflicts when he was CIA director/VP or POTUS. Bush 43 was bailed out of one failed business venture after another. We are seeing a rehash of Hillary’s 1000. investment but no one cared that W walked away with a fortune from his investment in a baseball team even though the original sum that he put in was relatively modest. The right still talks about draft-doggier pot smoking Bill while ignoring the draft habits of Chaney, et. al. or W’s drinking

    Most of these stories were reported on and forgotten within a few days. The difference is that the GOP doesn’t have to put up the the likes of Faux news. It doesn’t matter what democrat is running and how ‘pure’ they are, Faux will find (or more likely make-up) something. I doubt that there is a single democratic politician who doesn’t have an late fee at the library in his record. Faux will turn that into the crime of the century. The MSM, in order to avoid being labeled liberal, will of course have to cover it since it is being talked about on the Sunday shows and therefore is ‘news’..

  164. 164.

    askew

    April 24, 2015 at 10:36 am

    @brantl:

    No she can’t. And what kind of asshole sends out their kid to clean up their messes? The Clintons apparently.

  165. 165.

    Amber

    April 24, 2015 at 11:02 am

    @LT: Still on this when Forbes of all places debunked this years ago?

    “Giustra has a message for the Times and a response to the few specifics in their story. They should listen.

    The facts do not comport with the story in the New York Times. The reporter, Jo Becker, wrote a similar piece in 2008, which was eventually debunked by Forbes.

    I began working on financing the purchase of mining stakes from a private Kazakh company in early 2005. The purchase was concluded in late 2005.

    In late 2005, I went to Kazakhstan to finish the negotiations of the sale. Bill Clinton flew to Almaty a few days after I arrived in the country on another person’s plane, not on my plane, as the Times reported. Bill Clinton had nothing to do with the purchase of private mining stakes by a Canadian company.

    I sold all of my stakes in the uranium company – Uranium One – in the fall of 2007, after it merged with another company. I would note that those were sold at least 18 months before Hillary Clinton became the Secretary of State. No one was speculating at that time that she would become the Secretary of State.

    Other media outlets have insinuated that I influenced the decision by the U.S. to sign a free trade agreement with Colombia. At one point, I was an investor in Pacific Rubiales, a Colombian energy company. I sold my shares in Pacific Rubiales several years before the U.S.-Colombia Free Trade Agreement, which, I will note, was approved by several U.S. agencies and the White House. To theorize that I had anything to do with that is sheer conjecture.

    I hope that the U.S. media can start to focus on the real challenges of the world and U.S. society. Focus on poverty, homelessness, infrastructure, health care, education, or fractious world politics. You are a great country. Don’t ruin it by letting those with political agendas take over your newspapers and your airwaves.”

  166. 166.

    Amber

    April 24, 2015 at 11:19 am

    I’d like a raise of hands for anyone on this thread my age (35) and younger? Because quite frankly, the tizzy coming from the media and others, like on this thread, when it comes to Clinton seems a very generational thing. When people my age started coming into our political own (Gore/Bush first vote) and realized Clinton was almost impeached for a blowjob and the media frenzy around it- well the feeling is of ‘how ridiculous’. All the crap since only has raised the thoughts of ridiculousness. I also like how someone on this thread mentioned the “Clinton’s kid” to clean up the mess. Are you crazy? She is my age – you are calling me a kid!?! Wow. I have over 10 years experience in my field, a MBA, and a manager. Good to know that I am still a “kid”. Next up on this thread – a discussion of how “kids” (anyone under 40) need to get off the lawns!

  167. 167.

    Lawrence

    April 24, 2015 at 11:37 am

    Who are these star fuckers paying all this money for ex politicians to give a speech. Bill was a two term President. We’ve seen his act. Nothing new to learn. This is the rich person’s equivalent of paying $50 for Shatner to sign your photo. Except Captain Kirk is somebody worth looking up to.

  168. 168.

    brantl

    April 24, 2015 at 12:57 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Not really, he’s just a shitload smarter, and more focused, by miles.

  169. 169.

    Dennis

    April 24, 2015 at 1:14 pm

    @Baud: Her name is on it.

    Bill, Hillary & Chelsea Clinton Foundation

  170. 170.

    Myiq2xu

    April 24, 2015 at 3:22 pm

    John Cole’s journey to the Dark Side is now complete.

  171. 171.

    wuzzat

    April 24, 2015 at 3:45 pm

    @Amber: You’re not really an adult until your AARP membership card shows up in the mail.

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