As NYTimes publishes hit piece on Clinton, I have coffee. See how two unrelated things can happen simultaneously? https://t.co/B63m5FY3ba
— John Cole (@Johngcole) April 23, 2015
Zander touched on this earlier, but I have multiple thoughts about the latest pay for play accusations launched in the NY Times today, and I am all over the place, and sure to piss everyone off. My thoughts, in no particular order.
1.) This is a known right wing hack. That he plans to do the same to Jeb Bush (and, no doubt, find nothing), means nothing to me. If there is anything we have learned, we should not trust the rw media.
2.) The NY Times sure does seem to love to hate Hillary. Some days it feels like Maureen Dowd has taken over the entire paper, and you can easily see how the NY Times could be taken down the road to Whitewater again.
3.) Part of the problem is the implications are troubling, which is why they get so much attention, which is why the wingnuts bring them up in the first place, because they know the media can’t resist them because, well, they are troubling. But again, just because Bill was making bank speaking doesn’t mean that people were trying to buy influence with Hillary through the Clinton foundation.
4.) How much god damned money do they need to earn for themselves? That’s the most unseemly thing about it for me:
Bill Clinton was paid at least $26 million in speaking fees by companies and organizations that are also major donors to the foundation he created after leaving the White House, according to a Washington Post analysis of public records and foundation data.
The amount, about one-quarter of Clinton’s overall speaking income between 2001 and 2013, demonstrates how closely intertwined Bill and Hillary Clinton’s charitable work has become with their growing personal wealth.
How many damned millions does he need. We decry people leaving Congress for lobbying jobs to make a couple million, I’d argue that raising 100 million in a decade just for speaking is just as bad.
And when you earn that much money basically doing whatever someone asks you to do for a buck, you end up intertwined in some unseemly shit. Like this:
Laureate is basically the best of the worst. But back to the point, is there anything Clinton doesn’t have his hands in? How much is he being paid (they won’t say and I can’t find it).
5.) Hillary needs to have a better response than this.
6.) Yes, this is a Fox News clip, but it is NYT reporter Jo Becker catching Clinton Foundation officials in a complete lie, denying a meeting between Clinton and one of the uranium folks took place at the Clinton household before being informed they had pictures of the meeting, at which point the foundation admitted the meeting had taken place:
That’s pretty bad. If there is no there there, why is this shit happening?
So, yeah. I don’t know what to think other than trust no one and this is going to be the longest, most acrimonious campaign ever. But I sure as hell need more than coincidences and the stuff the rw media is burping up.
Baud
Can someone explain Hillary’s involvement with the Foundation? People talk about them as if they were one in the same.
Corner Stone
I’m not too sure about some of that. All I know is that anytime she talks it’s like nails on a chalkboard and I want to protect my privates as I wonder if I’ve taken out the trash yet.
John Cole +0
@Corner Stone: ??? I thought you loved HIllary.
Corner Stone
Somehow people being multi-millionaires is akin to the multi-billionaires actually buying politicians.
The Republican super funders laugh at $200M. Shit, they’ll spend that just to get their branded ads pasted onto their client pols.
Corner Stone
@John Cole +0: Sometimes I love you, John Cole.
Frankensteinbeck
1) Then you’re putting way too much trust in a known right-wing hack.
2) Then maybe you’re putting way too much trust in a source with a known axe to grind.
3) They’re not troubling. They’re troubling if you cover one eye, squint, and stick your head up your ass. Then you can tell other people that they’re troubling, and those people will go ‘gosh, if you put it that way, that’s troubling!’
4)
However much they can get? If he can make billions on speaking fees, I have no problem with that. If there was sign of impropriety, like spending a congressional career voting for certain interests and then being hired by those interests as soon as you left office, that might be another matter. He’s a charismatic ex-president. Yes, he can make a metric fuckton of money on speaking tours.
5) A better response than what? ‘I’d rather talk about issues, because my opponents won’t?’ I hear cries here that that’s the right answer all the time. What do you, exactly, think would be the best response? Can you back it up?
6) This one someone else can answer. My blood pressure is high enough without listening to FOX. ‘The video has been selectively edited to make it look like they caught her’ is an answer that has actually been correct before.
Baud
Where there’s smoke there’s fire…or a lot of people blowing smoke.
askew
@Baud:
At this point they are. They changed the name to include all 3 Clintons and there is so much intertwining between them that it is hard to separate them.
I just want to know what dumbass sent Chelsea Clinton out to defend the Clinton Foundation and not Hillary or Bill. Like we are going to take anything Chelsea says seriously.
Kropadope
@Corner Stone:
Nice baredly-coded implication of coded sexism.
I like to see that the Clintons are promoting education, but I’m skeptical of the for-profit universities. Students go into far more debt to complete their degrees and it would appear they inflate their graduate employment statistics by, among other things, only counting students who had a job before graduating.
Baud
@askew:
What does that mean?
chopper
7 cole posts in one day? you lose yer job or somethin’?
Kropadope
It’s been sad watching the cancer that is the majority of the New York Times editorial board metastatize over the years.
Elmo
I have the same issues as Cole. But I tend to think that they’re all corrupt anyway, so if this story is evidence of corruption it’s just proof of what I already know.
All politicians start by wanting to do good, and end by doing well. All of them – except the ones who are grifting from the beginning. So the Clintons are no different, despite my wishing they were. Ok. So I have to grow up and not expect any politician to be clean.
So the choice, as always, is between a corrupt pol who tries to hide it and help the middle class along the way, and a corrupt pol who cheerfully acknowledges the grift and is for sale to the highest bidder.
No brainer.
askew
Jonathan Chait(I know he’s an asshole but) has a good article up on the Clinton Foundation’s revelations today.
Hillary’s campaign meeting today with big donors in NYC turned into a handholding session about these allegations. I don’t know why they think that having Hillary say nothing on the CF is helping her. It didn’t work with the emails and it won’t work with this.
On a more important note, I hope we get a thread on the Warren/Obama tiff on TPA/TPP. When I see Paul Ryan and Ted Cruz pushing for TPA to pass so we can have TPP, I get sick to my stomach and no amount of reassurance from Obama changes that.
Alex s
My favorite accusation is that cash was donated to thr Clinton foundation to help the State department approve the Keystone pipeline.
Gvg
when they left the Whitehouse they really were broke. they owed large amounts of money and it was because of the various legal defenses over right wing nuttiness and spite not because of actual substance. one of the criticisms of Hillary I have considered valid is that she often seems to start from a defensive crouch. the article that impressed me drew up a timeline of her political life experience and it was basically the decline of liberalism from the height in the 60’s on. I am old enough to remember an awful lot of big democratic defeats.
so anyway I think both of them might have a kind of hoarder mentality about money. I don’t know, it’s just an idea I have from imagining myself in their place and the constant attacks. I also think that’s why they are never as open as we would like. Obama too has become less open than I think he intended.
Money doesn’t solve everything but it’s the only thing that does which you can have some control over.
PlanetPundit (used to be Sir Laffs-a-Lot)
I’d bet that scumbag the NYT imported from the BBC was behind this journaliatic travesty.
Baud
@efgoldman:
Oh I do. In spades.
Citizen_X
Or the Iraq War, or the Wen Ho Lee case…
askew
@Elmo:
I don’t think all of them are corrupt. Jimmy Carter sure seems to be pretty clean as does Obama. I also think there is a sliding scale on corruption with the Clintons too often flirting with the sleazy end of the scale.
Kropadope
@askew:
However, they don’t know the full details of the agreement. If Obama manages to negotiate labor and environmental protections, which have been typical shortcomings of these types of trade agreements, Republicans will have given away their ability to amend the agreement. An awesome prospect considering that the Rs control both houses of Congress.
Hearing Obama speak about trade agreements, he seems aware of this historical shortcoming. Even the lack of environmental rules weighs against the American business and worker, since lightly regulated countries are able to produce more cheaply.
The fast track isn’t approval. Wait until the full agreement is on the table before declaring that Obama sold us out, a declaration which seems to always come to naught.
kindness
Shit John you are sounding like Sully. Sure it’s unseemingly. That is what they all do when they leave office. Every Republican has done as much and worse. Optics are important but it’ll come out OK. The media will be harsh on ’em. It’s what they do to Clintons. Did it to Obama too but not quite as 24/7.
phantomist
Republicans complaining about money for influence, that’s like Oregon football bitching about that new sauna the back-up punters dad donated to the Washington St. program.
askew
@Baud:
The Clinton Foundation is now the Bill, Hillary and Chelsea Foundation. The staff that works on at the CF have moved between the charity and Hillary’s staff causing all kinds of conflicts of interest.
askew
@Kropadope:
The problem with these trade deals is that there is no enforcement of labor or environmental violations. While the South Korean Trade Deal has turned out ok. The Colombian Trade Deal that Obama said had protections in it has been a huge mess. Over 100 people have been murdered for trying to start unions since CAFTA was passed.
And Fast Track ensures that there can be no amendments to the TPP once it is signed. Considering that all of the GOP is for the deal, there is no way for Congressional Dems to stop a bad deal from happening. I am a huge Obama supporter but he is only 1-1 on trade deals and this is too big of a deal to just trust him on.
Baud
@askew:
Thanks.
Kropadope
@askew:
This is because they’re only Democrats on issues. They are tactical Republicans. This is why I fear their effect on the culture of the Democratic Party.
@efgoldman:
Their organization often appears to be doing good work, especially in third-world nations and where women have few rights. Their record in the U.S. is a little more iffy. Making mad money is one hell of a motivator, though, and since they found a way to do so while helping people, good on them.
I’m not a fan of pro sports, but I do think it’s reasonable that athletes are paid so much. Their work hits their bodies hard, so their medical expenses can be devastating in retirement. I actually think more needs to be done to maintain a decent standard of living for not-top-tier athletes, the NFL, etc., can afford to have them cared for.
different-church-lady
I know! And such small portions!
Kropadope
@askew:
Read only half my post, did you?
You:
These nations have historically weak governments and may need help in enforcing these requirements, the behavior described sounds pretty private-sector-oriented.
You mean before it is signed. After it is signed, presidents will be able to continue negotiating trade policy as always. This isn’t the last word ever on Pacific trade policy.
NotMax
Regardless of any merit (or lack thereof), it’s been quite upfront that no payment was made so far as NYT is involved.
Ripley
@different-church-lady: Perfect!
Baud
@NotMax:
Yeah, but the right-wing hack gets Village cred by having the NYT run his allegations.
samiam
Can always count on wr0ng way Cole to be easily let the worg way.
Just completely ignores there are NO connections. Niether the right win Hack book writing grifter or NY times found any.
But no…you don’t want to focus on that detail burriend in the story. You want to go with the while where there’s smoke there’s fire angle which is precisely the conclusion the RW grifter hack wants you to come up with.
Once a gullible RW voter always a gullible RW voter.
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
I heard Michael Smerkonish droning on about this shit. I nearly had a seizure.
I fucking hate the anti-clinton wurlitzer.
Kropadope
@efgoldman: I was thinking more like resources for law their own enforcement. Weak South American governments will have to take their own towns and nations away from crime syndicates and overly powerful industries. Fortunately, the U.S. can actually be pretty effective at applying pressure to an industry thats abusing workers, if it were so inclined. Plus South American law enforcement personnel are likely far more amenable to training and adopting new techniques than many of the Afghan folk and Iraqis we’ve been working with lately.
different-church-lady
@efgoldman: Wow, love that kind of hockey.
SteveLCo
I’m not a big fan of the Clintons, Bill is basically getting paid back for his passage of nafta and getting china most favored nation status.
HOWEVER I wonder when the lamestream press is going to point out that scott walker is going to be a bought and paid for shill for the koch brothers?
David Koch
¡SEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSST!
NotMax
@Baud
Fine, then call it that instead of what it is not.
“Pay for play” is about as accurate as is “death panel.”
Helen
@Corner Stone:
You forgot your /s tag, right? Of course you did.
Suzanne
I’ll take some cheese on my nothingburger, thanks.
Kropadope
@efgoldman: Man, someone’s cynical tonight. I get that it can be hard getting countries to enforce labor protections that they don’t want to. Still, it’s better to try to get them in place than not. If countries aren’t meeting their obligations, that’s something to deal with as it arises.
The TPP is likely not perfect, but neither is the status quo. I think it would behoove us to await the details of the agreement before rending our garments and/or lighting ourselves on fire.
different-church-lady
@Kropadope:
In other words, you don’t understand what the internet is for?
Kropadope
@different-church-lady:
It needn’t always be thus. We are, after all, the ones we were waiting for. We are the change we seek. Disappointing, I know.
Adam L Silverman
John,
The NY Times tried to turn this into something back in 2008 and it was quickly debunked by Forbes – of all publications. Here’s the link to the Forbes article:
http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/12/giustra-clinton-kazakhstan-pf-ii-in_rl_0912croesus_inl.html
different-church-lady
@Kropadope: The fancy word for what you’re describing is “entropy”.
Marc McKenzie
@Kropadope: Tactical Republicans!? What the fuck does that mean?
David Koch
These scandals are just gonna grow. The Clintons are just tooo corrupt. They’re human scandal/drama machines. It’s just going to grow and grow and grow.
If you want a women president then you better start begging Elizabeth Warren or Kirsten Gillibrand.
Belafon
@Kropadope:
Plus, it’s entertainment. If Hollywood entertainers are going to earn as much as they do, then the sports world should as well.
Belafon
@David Koch: How many actual scandals are there?
Helen
@efgoldman:
PFFFFTTT!! Speaking of ELEVEN, the Mets just went ELEVEN games without a loss. That’s right the NY METS have an eleven game winning streak.
Next up: Sweeping the Junkies…..I mean Yankees, this weekend.
In honor of Steve Gilliard “FUCK THE FUCKING YANKEES”
Baud
@efgoldman:
I’m waiting for Hillary’s naked mopping scandal to come to light.
ruemara
Christ on a cracker. The Hillary haters are as awful as the PUMAs were & are. There is nothing that cannot be said against the bullshit scandals without it being that you think Hils is inevitable. And you’d think the fact that right wing types are joining them to decry the crowning of Hillary Clinton would make them think, but naaaaa. Jesus.
David Koch
Man, Lawrence O’Donnell just ripped Clinton to shreds.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@Helen:
Let me know when the Mets winning streak approaches 62 games.
Kropadope
@Marc McKenzie:
It means they fully embrace the MSM and Republican-created framing for the world, the “big lie.” When they have an honest line of attack and a dishonest line of attack, they will choose the dishonest, as any acknowledgment of empirical reality, even if used against your enemies, weakens the big lie. (see 2008 campaign “experience” and “Obama weak on national security”)
They also are top-down managers and prefer fight over compromise. This approach helped doom 90s healthcare reform and 2008 campaign Clinton didn’t seem to grasp that lesson.
Also, they are shameless self-promoters and succeed in doing so despite their record of not-much-success.
They embrace the tactics of the right and it could lead the Dems down the same path, but Clinton supporters, like the Clintons themselves and the Rs, don’t want to discuss the shortcomings of this approach. For starters, in the MSM INOKIYAD.
askew
@David Koch:
Really? Twitter is saying he gave them a tongue bath.
Elizabelle
Maybe this will crystallize the choice.
USA Today profile of that nice Charles Koch.
Because if there’s anything Republicans can be counted on to do, it’s increasing society’s well-being.
ETA: It made me happy to hear he gets daily death threats. Also that he lives in a house within the corporate gated compound. Kochland!
Baud
@efgoldman:
And you call yourself a Democrat.
different-church-lady
@askew: Really? My gosh, it’s almost as though everybody everywhere is full of shit.
David Koch
You’re not being fair. You have to remember when they left the White House in 2000 they were “flat broke”. He was living on a mere government pension and she on a government job; living paycheck to paycheck to pay the mortgages on their two mansions.
AxelFoley
@Kropadope:
Thank you. Why does THIS President still not get the benefit of the doubt from the left?
Fuckin chicken little emos piss me off with this bullshit.
lamh36
My thoughts on 2016, at this point IDGAF!!!!
Fuq the scandals, fuq the press, fuq the Repubs, and fug politicians in general, on both damn sides.
Just point me to my polling places on the correct election day or primary day, and I’ll vote for the Dem nominee.
I’m just done even talking about it, tired of reading about it, and just right now waiting for it to be over.
Corner Stone
@AxelFoley:
GFY, ONT. NAFTA was straight up bullshit. So was CAFTA. Now we get to wait on our heels until TPP comes rammed down our throat?
Corner Stone
@different-church-lady: I think she means black twitter is saying O’Donnell is giving them a tongue bath.
Mary G
The really sad thing is that I cannot find it in me to care enough to read about it or decide what I think. I’m voting for her in November 2016, but this stuff, meh.
David Koch
@efgoldman: did Eleanor Roosevelt leave the WH and shill for 100 million dollars for tar sands and Goldman Sachs?
Kropadope
@efgoldman:
So, should I not criticize anyone nominally on the left when I see a problem? Not holding politicians to account and voting for them just for the sake of which party they belong to makes it so that neither party has any incentive to seek our votes.
Watch out or pretty soon neither party will appoint good justices.
Mary G
@lamh36: This.
Violet
These threads are exhausting.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
I don’t trust the guy peddling the story, but the Clintons behavior really is, at best, unseemly. Pretty much everyone here points out, correctly, how corrupt the way that Republican candidates get donations from donors is. They do so despite the lack of any explicit quid pro quos. Well, the same thing is going on with the Clintons.
The foundation took donations from entities that had business before the State Department. Their defenders are pointing out that no one can really point to any decisions that were obviously connected to donations, but you know what? I don’t care. This is corruption when Republicans do it, and it’s corruption when the Clintons do it. One of the ethical obligations that come with public service is that you don’t take money from the people who have any connections to your job. In a position with responsibilities as broad as Secretary of State, that means pretty much anyone engaged in international business.
I find the tendency to excuse the Clintons for this because Republicans are worse (and they are) to be weak.
Elizabelle
@Mary G: I am wondering if political news sites and newspapers will realize a lot of people have checked out early and are not reading their swill.
I don’t read about the Klown Kar GOP, and I didn’t read anything about Clinton either.
Not going to make a difference in my vote. Democrats all the way. Yellow Dog Ballot Line Fever.
Helen
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym:
My favorite streak is the Columbia University football team’s 44 game losing streak; from 1983 to 1988. That’s right. An entire undergraduate class went through Columbia without seeing their team win one game. Awesome. Got my graduate degree there in 1998 and they were still talking about it.
MomSense
@lamh36:
Did you hear that Idris Elba is going to be in the next Star Trek movie? There will be a new role created for him .
Kay
@askew:
It’ll be a big issue in this state. It’s already part of the upcoming senate race:
His likely opponent is Ted Strickland, former governor.
It’s jjust toxic in this state.
In 2010 I went to a political event and I was talking to these young men who were passing out swag for Portman. They were saying Portman was for “fair trade”. “Fair trade” is the labor retort to “free trade”. Rob Portman isn’t a “fair trader”. It means something- it’s a two word description for a specific position. it’s not just the ordinary meaning of the word “fair”. I asked them if they had been told to say that exact phrase. Yup. They had no idea what it meant.
So Portman knows how loaded it is in this state. Portman didn’t run on “free trade” in this state.
Elizabelle
Charles Koch is going after the stoner vote.
srv
@lamh36:
You emo surrender monkeys are the ones enabling the Hillary Inevitability Syndrome. At least some of your liberal ilk are trying to fight for a non-radioactive candidate and stop the unholy becrowning.
Embrace the common cause with your enemies on the right and fight the good fight against her dynastic realm. What would your Forefathers do?
randy khan
Of everything I’ve read, the least concerning to me is that entities that paid Bill Clinton to speak also made donations to the foundation. He picks and chooses his speaking engagements (at a rate that averages around $200K per pop, he can afford to be selective if he wants), and it’s not at all uncommon for people who are in demand to suggest that perhaps part of the fee ought to go to a favorite charity.
Goblue72
@Gvg: I’ve seen the house BC was born in, in Hope, AK. It’s basically a one room shack in a crappy dirt poor rural town surrounded by miles and miles of dirt farms. The biggest event of the year was the Tri-County Watermelon Festival. His mother was basically the town tramp.
I begrudge him nothing.
Elizabelle
Another USA Today story: the pregnant and fired Popeye’s employee has been offered her job back.
$2,000 in back pay? What’s up with that?
David Koch
@efgoldman: The impeachment was bullshit. But how does that make their gluttony and greed and shilling for disgusting harmful interests okay?
Elizabelle
@Violet:
Only if you read them.
magurakurin
Ed Kilgore’s take is pretty accurate I think
Kay
@Kropadope:
He can’t really answer the “landing at a new lower level” issue, though. They aren’t afraid that standards won’t go up in other countries. They’re afraid that there will be a leveling effect, and we’ll move to the (improved) but still lower level of those countries. That’s a legitimate fear, and “higher than rock bottom in other countries!” isn’t responsive to it. They don’t want to lose. They’re not even contemplating “winning”, because them “winning” anything isn’t on the table.
David Koch
@magurakurin: Kilgore is a longtime paid stooge of the DLC
David Koch
@efgoldman: No, I voted for Obama because:
☑ Landmark peace agreement with Iran
☑ Regulated CO2 – cut emissions by 30%
☑ Ended Bush’s war on Iraq
☑ Withdrawing all troops from Afghanistan
☑ Kept the US out of war in Syria, Iran, and Ukraine
☑ Repealed DADT
☑ Overturned DOMA
☑ Enacted Federal ENDA
☑ Endorsed Gay Marriage
☑ Set strong Net Neutrality regulations
☑ Raised car millage to 55 mpg
☑ Rescued the Auto Industry
☑ Prevented a 2nd Great Depression
☑ Ended Bush’s tax cuts for the rich
☑ Brought health insurance to 32,500,000 million people
☑ Nomalized relations with Cuba after 54 years
☑ Stopped Keystone Pipeline
☑ Enacted Dodd-Frank financial reform
☑ Deferred to Colorado’s and Washington’s pot laws instead of using federal preemption
☑ Overturned the ban on stem cell research
☑ Saved millions of Latinos from deportation
☑ Enacted free contraceptives for women
☑ Enacted 6 weeks maternity leave for federal workers
☑ Extended Social Security benefits to gay couples.
☑ Eliminated color coded terror alerts
☑ Rebuilt FEMA
☑ Appointed first 11 opnely gay judges on Federal bench
☑ Appointed first Latina to Supreme Court
☑ Appointed first female Solicitor General
☑ Appointed first femaled Federal Reserve Chairwoman
☑ Apponted 41% of female judges to Federal Bench
☑ Ended rescission, pre-existing conditions, lifetime caps
☑ Enacted Fair Sentencing Act
☑ Ended federal criminal asset forfeiture
☑ Ended gender discrimination in the Military
☑ Enacted Consumer Financial Protection Bureau
☑ Enacted Lilly Ledbetter Act
☑ Enacted Mathew Sheppard Hate Crimes Act
☑ Enacted Credit Card Reform Act
☑ Enacted Food Safety Act
☑ Eliminated banks from federal student loans
☑ Found bin Laden
☢ Reduced Nuclear arms with Russia by 66%
☑ Provided crucial finacing for Telsa’s electric car
☑ Negotiated Co2 reduction accord with China
☑ Expanded SCHIP and Pell Grants
☑ Syria surrendered their WMDs
☑ Enacted world program to secure loose fissionable material
☑ Saved movie “The Interview” from being censored and buried by Sony Pictures
☑ Secured release of POW Bowe Bergdahl
☑ Saved Yazidis and Benghazi from genocide
☑ Broke the Color Barrier
Obama has accomplished all this in only six years, in the face unpresented obstruction by the wingnuts and the corporate media.
Kropadope
@efgoldman: Reasonable people can debate that appointment and come on different sides of it. However, the constant stream of ethically questionable decision making and cult of personality type BS are truly dangerous.
In fact, I used to think the only person who would determine whether I voted for Hillary Clinton would be Hillary Clinton. Her early campaign activity has actually moved me pretty solidly in the benefit of the doubt territory.However, her most ardent supporters with their demands of fealty are really exacerbating my antipathy for the Clintons. This “you gotta support them because they’re the Democrat and don’t you dare discuss their shortcomings” attitude basically confirms all my worst suspicions; the inability to work with dissenters, the enemies listing, the Republican-level failure to engage reality, and so on.
David Koch
@Kropadope: SEXIST!
Valdivia
@Kropadope:
exactly what I was going to say. The rush with which so many people today declared this the worst thing ever without the information. Too much outrage so little information.
Kropadope
@Kay: Well, as things stand U.S. workers are already losing position, both from fewer available jobs and the disintegration of workplace standards. Since I don’t believe our old trade agreements are going away any time soon, our best chance to fix this is through new trade agreements.
Unless one is against trade agreements simply for being a trade agreement, but that seems fairly short-sighted. We’re not trying to disengage from the world here, we need customers.
Kropadope
@David Koch: For real, bruh?
mai naem mobile
I am no fan of the Clintons but who is Bill Clinton supposed to give paid speeches to where its going to be okay. If he gives it toba charity then he’ll be told that he should have done it for free. A trade organization – conflict of interest, private corporation – conflict of interest, foreign country – conflict of interest. If he makes money writing a book – well, what media conglomerate owns the publisher -conflict of interest. The guy was POTUS and,yes, is used to a certain lifestyle.And his presidential pension isn’t going to cut it.
Kay
@Kropadope:
If you said to them “US standards are going up AND we’ll insist these other places put some protections in” THAT would be “winning”, because they’d be ahead :)
There’s truth to it. There;s a high and a low right? They want both- a higher bar than what they have now in the US AND a higher bar linternationally. One would want to move that whole bar up, rather than just one end. That would be “winning” to them, understandably, I think.
chris9059
@Frankensteinbeck:
“If there was sign of impropriety, like spending a congressional career voting for certain interests and then being hired by those interests as soon as you left office, that might be another matter.”
Doesn’t signing Gramm-Leach and the rest of financial deregulation then taking millions in speaking fees from this same deregulated industry count as a sign of impropriety?
Kropadope
@efgoldman: It’ll be tough for her to have a worthwhile primary challenge without discussing her record. Thought policing is helping to keep the “inevitable” mantle on her shoulders.
David Koch
@Kropadope: no.
lamh36
@MomSense: yes, I heard. I was afraid they were going to make him a Klingon and hide that beautiful face, but Simon Pegg (who I love) who is co-writing the movie says Idris will be a totally new villain.
Can’t wait.
BTW, I’m still google stalking Idris Elba, but I’ve we are no longer married :-)
Posted this to my FB last weekend…lol
Kropadope
@Kay:
I think you misunderstand me, not only do I want both sides of the bar to be raised, but I am arguing that one side can not be truly be raised without the other. Our old trade agreements not only have weakened the position of our workers but also, for example, created such a dire situation among Chinese workers that factories require suicide nets.
magurakurin
@David Koch:
Kropadope
@efgoldman:
Right, and in 2007 the Clinton dissenters didn’t let themselves be beat into submission, despite the best efforts of her supporters. Still, the attempted thought policing continues and may succeed this time, given that this go around there is no stunningly compelling alternative like there was 8 years ago.
Emma
@David Koch: And Democrats who couldn’t wait to yell about betrayal. Don’t forget those.
I am at the mean bitch level of hoping we do get Jeb or Walker for president. Just so I can tell the purity trolls to sit down and shut up.
Sabrina Feldman
Brian Fallon debunks the NY Times article here. It really looks like much ado about nothing:
https://medium.com/@brianefallon/clinton-cash-nyt-fail-to-prove-connection-between-clinton-russian-purchase-of-uranium-assets-797a71cb40b0
David Koch
@Kay: I was thinking, any company can move to Mexico or China right now. How would TPP change that. It wouldn’t. Any company that wanted to greedily pull up stakes to lower labor and environment costs will be able to do so whether TPP passes or fails because of existing trade arrangements (NAFTA, PNTR).
People act as if TPP passes factories can leave – but they can do that already..
I also don’t get how progressives want to end the trade embargo with Cuba and trade with them fully and completely, but at the same time they don’t want to trade with Chile.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Attempted thought policing? WTF?
David Koch
@efgoldman:I’m voting for Hillary if she’s the nominee. That said, how was Cole’s post wrong?
Howard Beale IV
@Elizabelle: Did the Koch’s publicly come out against the recent renewal of the PATRIOT Act?
(I’m hearing crickets…..)
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: Says the thought commissioner.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Please explain.
Howard Beale IV
@David Koch: TPP introduces this little detail called the Investors Settlement Dispute System ISDS. Both Sen. Warren and the CATO institute are against it, for it renders sovereign rights as inferior to a arbitration panel. And if you want to see how that works, Jon Oliver shows exactly how that works when it came to Australia’s plain packaging law when it came to cigarettes.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Kropadope: I haven’t bothered to try to read all the nitty-gritty on the TPP and the like. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if a big part of it is increasing protections on patents and trademarks (which can be good or bad, depending on how it’s done).
Smartypants has a sensible (it seems to me) post on it here:
She’s got some later posts about the issues as well – worth a look.
Cheers,
Scott.
hamletta
I’m just not willing to go with the hysteria on this. I was 29 when Bill Clinton was elected, and I lived through all the bullshit and kept my sanity thanks to Media Whores and Bartcop.
People go insane when it comes to the Clintons, and I think it’s ridiculous. When people start talking about those evil Clintons, my eyes just glaze over.
The Clinton Foundation isn’t a fucking slush fund; it actually does things. I think the Clintons are trying to do some good in the world.
I’m reserving judgment on whatever this latest bullshit is until I hear from Gene Lyons and/or Joe Conason. They seem to be the only reporters who can keep their wits about them when it comes to the Clintons.
I’d love to see my imaginary high school boyfriend Martin O’Malley give Hillary a run for her money, because it’s good politics, but I’ll be happy to vote for her in 2016.
Kropadope
@hamletta: You wouldn’t know it from the ensuing conversation, but my first post defended the work of their foundation (mostly) and their compensation (completely). The demand for fealty is the problem and that shit runs from Hillary right downhill to every dedicated supporter.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: I have had several conversations with you where you insisted that any person of a left persuasion MUST vote for the Democrat, because a Democrat is always better than a Republican, details be damned. You bolstered this case, not by pointing out any particular accomplishments of Hillary or reason why she would be good for office, but rather by mischaracterizing everything I wrote for the whole post.
I have had the pie filter suggested to me. I won’t use it, but I think of you and Corner Stone briefly every time I hear about it.
Elizabelle
@Howard Beale IV: Crickets in the Kochs’ gated corporate compound?
Indeed you did.
Howard Beale IV
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Be careful of what you ask for. You may get it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Well, in virtually every case, I would say that a voting for the Democrat in a D vs R race is always the best decision. My biggest concern right now is that too many people on the left are buying into every rumor about the odds-on favorite for the Democratic nomination without applying any critical thinking skills. I don’t know if HRC is going to be the candidate I vote for in my primary next year; at the same time, I don’t really see the point of savaging her. If one has an alternate candidate, tell us about him or her. Provide links to speeches. Do something positive. Otherwise, to me, it comes out as simply being against Clinton and not for someone else.
As far as my alleged mischaracterization of things you said, a link or two would be helpful.
David Koch
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
This
Also too, This
socraticsilence
Honestly, Is there a concrete reason that the Clinton team can’t be more like the Obama team– keep things tight, don’t freaking skirt the line constantly on every issue (where even if you don’t break the law you just run right to the edge)– I mean its been nice to have even the establishment loving villagers basically laugh off various Obama “scandals” why can’t the Clinton’s be more like that?
Omnes Omnibus
@socraticsilence: Obama is a once in a lifetime politician.
hamletta
@Kropadope:
Oh, my! You must have really important fealty, that it’s been demanded and all.
I heard all this shit when I was a (sane) Dean supporter.
You want another candidate? Then get off this blog and start organizing. Go out and do some canvassing in sleet or blazing heat.
Then come back and talk to me about fealty.
Omnes Omnibus
@hamletta: Dayum.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus:
My biggest concern is that her devout supporters are demanding criticism-free support of HRC without applying any critical thinking skills. If you actually engaged me in conversation instead of dismissing every bit of criticism as unwarranted, you might realize that I have certainly thought out my reasons for not supporting Hillary
Even in this post, where I started off defending the Clintons, I get hit (not by you, this time) for my insufficiently pure defense. It is not enough that I point out that the particular criticism of the Clintons is wrong, I must refrain from any criticism myself, no matter how meager. It is the knee-jerk tendency that has, in this case, resulted in me criticizing Clinton even more. I respond to those who respond to me, and several of those comments were of the “No, you have to love her with your whole heart” variety.
As far as advancing another candidate, that’s not what this thread is about. It’s about Hillary. I got off a little bit talking about the TPP, but that naturally grew out of the conversation the people here were having. I’m not gonna shoehorn in some BS about O’Malley just because it makes you feel good. Everyone here knows who’s running.
Also, no, I am not going through months worth of posts, particularly not JC’s Hillary binge from last month, looking for the conversations in question. You know what you do and I’ll be damn sure to point it out to you every time you do it.
Kropadope
@hamletta: Are you being deliberately obtuse? You know full well this fealty is being demanded of every Juicer who strays from the line of “Hillary Clinton is the bestest good that ever did good and did that good well.”
Kropadope
@Kropadope: I also want to add:
@hamletta:
I have, for many worthy candidates. The campaign has barely started and Hillary is the only D who has announced so far.
It also still seems to be escaping your notice that on this thread, prior to such demands being issued, what I said about them was 98% positive. That’s the problem. With some of you people it’s 100% or go home.
askew
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
Not me. I love Obamacare and support Dodd/Frank. I have never been on the emoprog side but the TPP stinks to high heaven and the push to fast track it is BS.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: My dear boy, I am not a devoted support of HRC. I articulated my position above. If it has offended you, too bad.
LT
1. It’s a hit piece!
40. Gee, yeah, they lied and stuff and there’s a lot of troubling stuff here.
WTF, Cole?
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: That doesn’t change the fact that your one of the principal enforcers of the requirement that every criticism of Hillary, no matter how minor, must be immediately followed by “but I will support her if she is the Democratic nominee.”
askew
@socraticsilence:
They can’t because they are sleazy and associate with sleazy people. Compare Carter to Bill post-presidency. Carter has done more good than Bill has and you don’t see the Carter Center embroiled in influence peddling and $$ scandals all the time. And I’d bet money that the Obama Foundation or whatever it is called will be as squeaky clean as Obama’s presidency. People on the left try to blame the Clinton scandals on everyone but the Clintons. The Clintons open themselves up to this shit by playing fast and loose with ethics.
LT
@Adam L Silverman: “quickly debunked by Forbes”
By some Forbes financial writer who a year who “debunked” in the most obviously weasel worded way possible.
LT
John Cassidy, New Yorker:
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: It’s a fucking blog, you twit. I express my opinion and you express yours. If I think yours is idiotic, I get to say so. If you think mine is, you get to say so as well. No one is “enforcing” anything.
fuckwit
@askew: This, really, is all of it for me. I think Bill in particular has always reeked of sleaze. Reagan too, and Johnson… and of course Nixon was the team to beat for sleazery until the Bush Crime Family straight up beat him. Carter never gave off that vibe, always seemed scrupulously honest. Since retiring from politics he’s been busy building houses for poor people and eradicating diseases from the developing world. Obama too, seems a total straight arrow, and I can see him doing some kind of earnest public policy thing in his retirement.
That kind of honesty and earnestness is really what I want in my politicians, and I understand that’s a tall order– they’re politicians, after all, what do you expect, honesty? But, really, why not aim for that?
@Omnes Omnibus: I agree. Best president in my lifetime, possibly in generations.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus:
Not for lack of trying. The amount of peer pressure exerted here regarding not criticizing Hillary could freeze water at room temperature. That’s certainly an attempt at force, a weak one, but an attempt.
You know what? I don’t think I believe you. I never see you talking up anyone else (like even less than I do), but you unfailingly show up to defend her. I also regard you as a known liar as a result of our previous conversations.
Omnes Omnibus
@fuckwit: Well, that is the problem. Have we been spoiled? Is it reasonable to expect that the next candidate is able to equal Obama? Or should we simply choose the best candidate who actually runs?
David Koch
So I’m watching a replay of Chris Hayes, and Hayes along with Michelle Goldberg of The Nation and Eric Boehlert of Media Matters all say Clintons are victims of a media “vendetta” but at the same time the Clintons leave themselves vulnerable to attacks by taking money from shady sources which is unnecessary since they’re already rich.
“why leave yourself vulnerable” ~ Michelle Goldberg
“why doesn’t Bill just turn down the money from a russian bank” ~ Chris Hayes
“the Obamas never walked into these traps” ~ M Goldberg.
This is what I and others are saying. It’s bad enough that they’re going to come after you and make stuff up, but whyhelp them, when you know the rules are different for you, by repeatedly giving them grist with foreseeable errors.
“Hillary, there’s a rake on they ground, let’s step on it. Maybe it’ll hit us in the face, but maybe it won’t.” “Okay, Bill.”
LT
Democrats need a new slogan:
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Dude, since you aren’t willing to go into the archives to defend your position, I won’t go into them to defend mine. OTOH, my position is, and remains, what I stated above. You can believe me or not.
hamletta
@askew: Yes. That is true. Jimmy Carter is Simon Pure.
Which is why he was an ineffective president.
I’m a liberal pragmatist. My attraction to Howard Dean was based on Vermont’s early childhood health program.
I trust the Clintons. Yeah, they’re consummate politicians. But that’s what we need. And I trust that despite all the crazy speaking fees, they’re still working for the greater good.
Omnes Omnibus
@LT: Obama chose to avoid public financing. He won. Do you think he would have won if he’d chosen to abide by the public finance limits? Given the legal environment, one does what one must.
TriassicSands
$100 million. I doubt if anyone learned anything important from any of those speeches.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: Like I said, I can wait to catch you in a future instance.
Omnes Omnibus
@TriassicSands: I doubt if anyone who paid for the privilege of hearing the speech was financially inconvenienced by the purchase of the ticket.
LT
@hamletta: Ineffectual is in the eye of the beholder:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/01/jimmy-carter-was-a-lot-better-president-than-almost-anyone-ever-admits.html
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Okay, have fun catching me enforcing a pro-HRC meme or whatever you are looking for.
Cacti
@Omnes Omnibus:
Indeed.
Noble failure is still failure.
Do we want to win elections, or good sportsmanship awards?
Omnes Omnibus
@Cacti: Personally, I tend toward the “good sportsmanship” side, which is one of the very many reasons I have never run for office. (My disreputable history may also be another.) Obama chose a way to win. And, me, I will support whichever Dem seems most likely to find a way to win in 2016. End of story.
askew
@David Koch:
Smartest thing the Clintons did this cycle was basically to buy Media Matters. They have a reputation of being neutral and so when they go out with their Hillary talking points people think they aren’t her campaign surrogates.
LT
@Omnes Omnibus: @Omnes Omnibus: I’m talking about how HRC supporters, and even many non-supporting Dems, are treating this story. All the strawmen about the RW hack ignores that this is about money in politics. It’s a pretty basic story.
Let’s be honest: If this were about candidate Jeb Bush, and his former president brother or father getting millions of dollars in donations from people related to a Russian company that now owns 51% of US uranium interests – would Dems be all over this story?
It’s almost too ridiculous to even ask that question.
Omnes Omnibus
@LT: As has been noted above, that isn’t exactly what happened. The deal was done in, I believe, 2007. How does that tar the Clinton Foundation? Correct me please, if I am wrong on the facts.
Kropadope
@LT:
And if there were shared responsibility between her and a former Republican counterpart, you can bet Hillary’s involvement would be the focal point of MSM depictions. Still doesn’t make it right.
LT
@Omnes Omnibus:
I love the “I believe.” It’s so *Clintonesque.
The deal was not *done* in 2007. It was in the works, but it was not completed until afte rthe Clinton meeting:
Oh that meeting wasn’t at all related! It was pure coincidence that Clinton and Giustra flew out of Kazakhstan hours after the meeting. And the fact that Giustra lied about needing the Kazakh government’s approval is completely unrealted. And the fact the later lies about the meeting in the Clinton home – also just totally unrelated stuff!
LT
@Omnes Omnibus: I also love that any dealings with Russia are the most evil awful things that ever existed – when it comes to Edward Snowden.
Hillary Clinton and the US’s uranium? Meh.
AxelFoley
@David Koch:
This.
The Clintons’ main problem is they are messy, and they give their enemies ammo to use against them.
different-church-lady
@magurakurin:
Why were they even born, when you get right down to it?
different-church-lady
Keep it up people! These threads are comedy gold!
chopper
@Helen:
and lo, I watched the angel open the seventh seal, and the mets won eleven games in a row.
brantl
@askew: Why not? She’s not a kid anymore. I’ve heard her speak, before, she can carry her weight.
brantl
@samiam:
Douche, much?
Keith G
as I read the above comments correctly, I hope, I am left in wonder as to why Cole is taking the heat that he is. It seems to me that he was just stating the obvious. Hillary Clinton has been running for president since at least 2001 so it’s not exceptional for folks to wonder why she would be associated with activities which to use a comment above is like purposely stepping on a yard rake with the tines up turned.
Patricia Kayden
“I’d argue that raising 100 million in a decade just for speaking is just as bad.”
I wouldn’t. If President Clinton can earn a billion dollars in a decade just for speaking, I say good on him. This is a capitalist country and as long as he’s not earning the $$$ through illegal means, I really don’t care. Just shows that he’s a hustler. I hope President Obama does as well when he leaves office.
I hope Secretary Clinton can push back against all this “scandal” talk. She’s still a shoe in for the White House and the attacks against her are going to get uglier.
Sherparick
The problem with the story is that 1) how is this different then what the Kock Brothers and Sheldon Adelson are doing every day (see John Boehner inviting Bibi to address Congress or the Keystone Pipeline); 2) there were multiple actors in the U.S. Government outside the State Department and the Times story did not have a scintilla of evidence that anything untoward happen in the vetting process then they usual corporate lobbying (which I admit is bad enough) or more importantly, that Clinton, as Secretary of State, did anything to that affected this decision.
D58826
I guess my problem with all of this is that once people reach that level of government they have accumulated so many friends, contributors, conflicts of interest that it is impossible to sort it all out. Sure there were stories about Chaney and Halliburton but they ran for a day or two and then were dropped. Rummy didn’t have conflicts with his old employers? Really? And then there is the bush family. I don’t recall anyone making it an impeachable offense that Bush 41 had conflicts when he was CIA director/VP or POTUS. Bush 43 was bailed out of one failed business venture after another. We are seeing a rehash of Hillary’s 1000. investment but no one cared that W walked away with a fortune from his investment in a baseball team even though the original sum that he put in was relatively modest. The right still talks about draft-doggier pot smoking Bill while ignoring the draft habits of Chaney, et. al. or W’s drinking
Most of these stories were reported on and forgotten within a few days. The difference is that the GOP doesn’t have to put up the the likes of Faux news. It doesn’t matter what democrat is running and how ‘pure’ they are, Faux will find (or more likely make-up) something. I doubt that there is a single democratic politician who doesn’t have an late fee at the library in his record. Faux will turn that into the crime of the century. The MSM, in order to avoid being labeled liberal, will of course have to cover it since it is being talked about on the Sunday shows and therefore is ‘news’..
askew
@brantl:
No she can’t. And what kind of asshole sends out their kid to clean up their messes? The Clintons apparently.
Amber
@LT: Still on this when Forbes of all places debunked this years ago?
“Giustra has a message for the Times and a response to the few specifics in their story. They should listen.
The facts do not comport with the story in the New York Times. The reporter, Jo Becker, wrote a similar piece in 2008, which was eventually debunked by Forbes.
I began working on financing the purchase of mining stakes from a private Kazakh company in early 2005. The purchase was concluded in late 2005.
In late 2005, I went to Kazakhstan to finish the negotiations of the sale. Bill Clinton flew to Almaty a few days after I arrived in the country on another person’s plane, not on my plane, as the Times reported. Bill Clinton had nothing to do with the purchase of private mining stakes by a Canadian company.
I sold all of my stakes in the uranium company – Uranium One – in the fall of 2007, after it merged with another company. I would note that those were sold at least 18 months before Hillary Clinton became the Secretary of State. No one was speculating at that time that she would become the Secretary of State.
Other media outlets have insinuated that I influenced the decision by the U.S. to sign a free trade agreement with Colombia. At one point, I was an investor in Pacific Rubiales, a Colombian energy company. I sold my shares in Pacific Rubiales several years before the U.S.-Colombia Free Trade Agreement, which, I will note, was approved by several U.S. agencies and the White House. To theorize that I had anything to do with that is sheer conjecture.
I hope that the U.S. media can start to focus on the real challenges of the world and U.S. society. Focus on poverty, homelessness, infrastructure, health care, education, or fractious world politics. You are a great country. Don’t ruin it by letting those with political agendas take over your newspapers and your airwaves.”
Amber
I’d like a raise of hands for anyone on this thread my age (35) and younger? Because quite frankly, the tizzy coming from the media and others, like on this thread, when it comes to Clinton seems a very generational thing. When people my age started coming into our political own (Gore/Bush first vote) and realized Clinton was almost impeached for a blowjob and the media frenzy around it- well the feeling is of ‘how ridiculous’. All the crap since only has raised the thoughts of ridiculousness. I also like how someone on this thread mentioned the “Clinton’s kid” to clean up the mess. Are you crazy? She is my age – you are calling me a kid!?! Wow. I have over 10 years experience in my field, a MBA, and a manager. Good to know that I am still a “kid”. Next up on this thread – a discussion of how “kids” (anyone under 40) need to get off the lawns!
Lawrence
Who are these star fuckers paying all this money for ex politicians to give a speech. Bill was a two term President. We’ve seen his act. Nothing new to learn. This is the rich person’s equivalent of paying $50 for Shatner to sign your photo. Except Captain Kirk is somebody worth looking up to.
brantl
@Omnes Omnibus: Not really, he’s just a shitload smarter, and more focused, by miles.
Dennis
@Baud: Her name is on it.
Bill, Hillary & Chelsea Clinton Foundation
Myiq2xu
John Cole’s journey to the Dark Side is now complete.
wuzzat
@Amber: You’re not really an adult until your AARP membership card shows up in the mail.