I’d hammer in the morning, I’d hammer in the evening, nailing myself to a cross all over this land:
“We will not obey.”
That’s the blunt warning a group of prominent religious leaders is sending to the Supreme Court of the United States as they consider same-sex marriage.
“We respectfully warn the Supreme Court not to cross that line,” read a document titled, Pledge in Solidarity to Defend Marriage. “We stand united together in defense of marriage. Make no mistake about our resolve.”
“While there are many things we can endure, redefining marriage is so fundamental to the natural order and the common good that this is the line we must draw and one we cannot and will not cross,” the pledge states.
The signees are a who’s who of religious leaders including former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, former U.S. Senator Rick Santorum, National Religious Broadcasters president Jerry Johnson, Pastor John Hagee, and Franklin Graham, president and CEO of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and Samaritan’s Purse.
Fine, don’t obey. We’ll just take away your tax exempt status, you wankers.
Iowa Old Lady
What would constitute not obeying for these guys?
Tree With Water
“We will not obey.”
“You have the right to remain silent..”.
scav
Oh they’re going to be so busy, the poor Catholics have to stop obeying the Pope too, he going all green hugging on them, after already embracing the poor and not falling rabid at homosexxxxuals. When will they have time to fiddle with their rosaries between all the non-obedience and non-poverty?
kc
Relax, fellas, no one’s gonna force y’all to get gay-married.
Aimai
They are going to refuse to get gay married? Bully for them. More for the rest of us. Im dumping my old man. He’s fifty and im changing him for two twentyfive year old lesbians.
JPL
John, You might want to write about Christies future. According to Bloomber, Wildstein is going to plead guilty as part of a plea deal…
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-29/former-christie-ally-david-wildstein-said-to-plan-guilty-plea
Mary G
I read Rod Dreher sometimes, and I have been restraining myself from commenting on his blog that we are bringing back throwing Christians to lions, as football is too dangerous to human health. The way he is running around with his hair on fire is hysterical.
That said, I think we have to be careful and gracious in our winning and not actually act like these assholes have for millennia by saying that everyone who doesn’t believe in gay marriage should be shamed on Twitter and driven from their jobs.
trollhattan
@Aimai:
You should totally work up a screenplay to pitch.
NotMax
Will not obey what, exactly?
Second- and third-string fanatical gadflies using their narrow definition of religion as a mantle is more like it.
21st century version of bigots standing in the schoolhouse door.
(BTW, among the guests for the White House state dinner for the Japanese Prime Minister are listed at least one same-sex married couple, Mr. George Takei and Mr. Brad Takei. That may be a first for such an occasion.)
Betty Cracker
@Aimai: Your share of the household chores would plummet as your wardrobe expanded!
jl
I Am Not A Lawyer! I don’t get it. Why do they have to preside at civil services?
Seems to me that they can legitimately refuse to preform religious LGBT marriage ceremonies regardless of the SCOTUS ruling.
I understand in many states they have licenses to do civil and religious ceremonies at the same time. But how many LGBTs are going to go to some reactionary religious leader to get a civil ceremony but not a religious one? And even then, can the reactionary nitwit just claim that he cannot separate the two?
In other words, in the real world and the legal, who cares what these jackasses do?
Am I missing something?
Capt Seaweed
I care what these clowns think? When did this happen….
LWA (Liberal With Attitude)
I think Rev. James Dobson is going to go full on Lysistrata and refuse to enjoy butt seks.
Oh, he’s not so radical as to give it up entirely, but he will definitely refuse to enjoy it.
Take that, hippies!
Mike J
The phrase “radical cleric” needs to be used to refer to some people in this country, not just scary feerners.
boatboy_srq
@Iowa Old Lady: Something something not-gonna-sell-ya-[product/service]-because-icky-hom’seckshuls something. And then whinge to the RWNM about how Teh Ghey Puts Us Out Of Bidness.
@kc: I think the most offensive part of that misconception of theirs is that anyone wants those bitter hate-filled fvckt#rds.
donnah
Take away their tax exempt status? Brilliant! If only it could be done. Talk about the rending of garments and gnashing of teeth: they would be sent up to Rapture in a fiery blaze of Almighty Indignation!
boatboy_srq
@Aimai: That sounds effing brilliant. Ditto on the screenplay request.
Baud
@Aimai:
If I were your old man, I’d do the same.
Starfish
You don’t really want to take their tax exempt status because you don’t really want a Catholic Church super PAC.
SatanicPanic
@Iowa Old Lady: not shutting up
ETA- conveniently for them they weren’t planning on shutting up anyway
Quaker in a Basement
“a who’s who of religious leaders including former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, former U.S. Senator Rick Santorum, National Religious Broadcasters president Jerry Johnson, Pastor John Hagee, and Franklin Graham, president and CEO of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and Samaritan’s Purse.”
You misspelled “conservative grifters.”
boatboy_srq
@jl:
The distinction, as with the “religious liberty” laws allowing businesses to discriminate, is that they want the privilege (let’s call it what it is here) to deny a product/service and be a##h0les about it. Because just saying “no” is not enough.
boatboy_srq
@Baud: Can we put both of those ideas together for the screenplay? Even got a working title for it: “Trading Up.”
Marmot
That’s fascinating to me. The conservative mindset–from what I’ve read and seen–perceives change as a threat to civilization itself. As if I’ll be drinking from your skull this time next year if we remove just one more foundational building block. Always just one more.
They never consider whether that’s even plausible, much less true. Why do they hold such a pathological belief in civilization’s fragility?
scav
@jl: But they are being Forced! To! Witness! Behavior! Of! Which! They! Do! Not! Approve!!!! In the Same Country even, not even merely on the same planet! Unprecedented Reeeeeeligious Oppression!!!!! If they are expected to actually tacitly exist in the same general vicinity of activities with which they are not in full agreement with, well, then, they are Above the Law as the Baby Jeebus intended.
Also, I’d like to freak TX out about the plummeting out of control Russian cargo gizmo, but they seem to be busy and would probably consider it a love pat from Putie if they were so lucky. Apparently have a few weeks to figure out how to best work the media into a frenzy and get the animated graphics straightened out.
Eric U.
there is just enough truth to their persecution fantasies that it makes it hard to debunk.
The basis of this is the bakery paying fines for refusing to provide service, which is not really related to gay marriage directly
jonas
@Iowa Old Lady: Exactly. No-one’s saying *they* have to get gay married, or that their churches should be forced to marry same sex couples. Don’t like SSM? Great — don’t marry gays in your church. Don’t talk to gay married couples. Disobey away!
boatboy_srq
@Mary G: Depends. These Xtian BLEEPers’ “job” seems to be nothing more than spreading fear and hate; that’s not an occupation I’d like to see them keep.
NCSteve
@jl: You’re missing the fact that they’re idiots and grifters and panty-wetting cowards whose meal tickets depend on selling fear to idiots and hateful rabble and panty-wetting cowards.
Rabbis don’t have to perform marriages between Jews and Christians, Catholic priests don’t have to marry divorcees, people who get themselves named clergy by “religions” that will do so for a hundred bucks so they can preside at the weddings of friends never have to marry anyone else ever again.
Because turns out, there’s an amendment to the Constitution that comes before the Second one.
Schlemazel
“We will not obey!”
“We respectfully warn the Supreme Court not to cross that line,” read a document titled, Pledge in Solidarity to Defend slavery. “We stand united together in defense of slavery. Make no mistake about our resolve.”
“While there are many things we can endure, redefining bondage is so fundamental to the natural order and the common good that this is the line we must draw and one we cannot and will not cross,” the pledge states.
The signees are a who’s who of religious leaders including former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, former U.S. Senator Rick Santorum, National Religious Broadcasters president Jerry Johnson, Pastor John Hagee, and Franklin Graham, president and CEO of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and Samaritan’s Purse.
WereBear
But their numbers are dwindling:
The End of a(nother) Church.
At this point, if they weren’t propped up by their literally unholy alliance with 21st century dissolute Republicans, no one would be listening at all.
And vice versa.
boatboy_srq
@Marmot:
It’s actually their position atop said civilization that’s fragile.
jl
@boatboy_srq: The Townhall column was so dumb I couldn’t figure it out.
So… I still don’t get it. HOW are they going to do their civil disobedience? Form human chains around bakeries and only let heteros through? Or heteros, and gays who promise not to order a wedding cake?
Whatever it is, I’d bet it’s more likely to be hilarious than outrageous.
Peale
@Iowa Old Lady: Civil disobedience, I maybe. Raising money off it most definitely.
Honestly, the list reads like a who’s who of the usual suspects in that regard. Dealing with them for 30 years and planning on dealing with them another 30 untill I pass on. I’m not really all that worried about their disobedience since they’ve been very offended by us and active in threatening the country with doom since the moment we started walking around in public holding hands.
As someone pointed out to me the other week, Jude and Connor are now the hottest couple on the “ABC Family”, which I think is still required to show Pat’s 700 Club, and we’ve heard barely a peep out of the usual suspects, even about Jude’s lesbian mothers. 15 years ago, there would have been screams and we would have had much talking head discussion by pundits on what that meant. Now, the boys could sneak a kiss in without anyone noticing. I think that’s what we’ve always wanted. To be visible and not noticed at the same time. Marriage will be the same way even if I’m expecting a little shit storm and the usual right wing pledge cards for the next decade.
Gravenstone
@jl: Exactly. The legal construct “civil union” is the only thing government and businesses should be recognizing (or even allowed to recognize). If you wish to have that union consecrated by the religious organization of your choice, i.e. get married, well that’s entirely up to you. But the only damned thing that should legally matter is the civil union aspect of it.
Marmot
@scav: Try not to confuse my state’s dumbass leadership with me and the rest of the OK citizens, please.
jl
@Schlemazel: I guess I did not miss anything. Funny Townhall column, then. Onion-worthy, almost.
Unabogie
So doesn’t failure to obey the law get you shot fifteen times? Or is that just for people selling loose cigarettes?
Baud
@jl:
Heterosexual sex-ins!
Mystical Chick
Now, now, that is just sad. Who gives a flying patoot what these morons think? And they’re threatening SCOTUS with what, exactly?
I swear, I don’t get it. Why do they get to say who does what? How does it affect them in any way what someone else does in their marriage?
Bunch of shitheads, is all.
The Other Chuck
Hey guys, you don’t have to nail yourselves to the cross — I’m more than happy to nail them in for ya. Want a nice flogging to go with it too?
jl
@Baud: Gays and lesbians can have cookies!?
Roger Moore
They need a better writer, or at least a better editor. That document is wordy and repetitive, and it would benefit immensely from being condensed to half its length. It would also benefit significantly from some specifics about how they intend to act in response to a ruling in favor of marriage equality. I can understand that deficiency, though, since they don’t intend to do anything except whine and grift.
Marmot
@boatboy_srq: Sure, for the leaders. But you’ll see that in blue-collar Repubs.
jonas
@scav:
That’s part of it. But I think a bigger issue — and one which they’ll never acknowledge — is that the normalization of homosexuality represents, like the women’s movement, the suffrage movement, and the emancipation of slaves, a massive undermining of the claims of biblical and religious authority. If gay relationships are publically recognized, and civilization *does not* collapse, where does that leave biblical authority? Their greatest nightmare is that all their certitude about homosexuality being innately corrupt, immoral, and destructive will be revealed a complete farce as same-sex couples take their place in the social mainstream and…nothing..happens.
scav
We need to form an Unground Pastry Railway to sneak the cakes out of pious Bible-Based-Bakeries and deliver them into the hands and mouths of unsanctified celebrations of personal commitment. They’ll eventually have to run exhaustive background checks and everyone will have to sign (in triplicate of course, once to the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghostwriter) that the icing bedecked concoctions will not touch the lips of the impure. The TSA will eventually go to Bakeries for advice on how to run safe environments.
boatboy_srq
@Baud: Married, monogamous heterosexual sex-ins, of course. And after that they’ll break out their gadgets and find NSA tricks on Grindr.
kc
@jl:
They can.
jonas
@Roger Moore: The people it’s actually aimed at aren’t exactly the types to obsess over the odd Oxford comma.
kc
@Baud:
Look, if everyone does this, there won’t be enough 25-year-old lesbians to go around.
Let’s not be greedy.
Baud
@boatboy_srq:
Recent relevant LGM post
Omnes Omnibus
@Gravenstone: Marriage itself is a legal construct. The church part is only necessary if someone wants their religion’s blessing on it. Religious leaders are not being forced to do anything.
jl
@Roger Moore: How about: Brilliant and intrepid reactionary preachermen hilariously promise to perform apparently infeasible acts of civil disobedience, if they can figure out how, when, and where.
boatboy_srq
@Baud: ANOTHER one? Geez. Good for whoever made that public.
burnspbesq
You think so? Care to quote the part of the Regulations under Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(3) that authorizes the IRS to do that?
Yeah, that’s what i thought.
Baud
@kc:
That was the argument the anti-gay-marriage folks should have made.
Cacti
The hardest part of self-martyrdom is pounding in that last nail.
El Caganer
Yes, a veritable Where’s Elmo of religious leaders has announced they will defy all attempts to have hummus-x-u-l marriage RAMMED DOWN THEIR THROATS. Hmmm…perhaps not. At least in this one press statement they seem to have forgotten to bring up that particular wingnut sweaty fantasy.
Hal
I would also chime in with a big WTF? What is civil disobedience in this case? No one is going to force Priests/Ministers etc to perform same sex marriage ceremonies. No one is going to be forced to turn their church or synagogue over to the evil gays. So what are they going to disobey? If I had any real fear, it’s that these supposed christian leaders are going to encourage violence against LGTB people via their more paranoid followers.
This is what I mean. His statement is vague, with no guide to what he means by civil disobedience. It’s like anti-abortion protesters who hand out wanted signs, then act surprised when a Doctor is murdered and claim that’s not what they meant to happen.
And of course an MLK reference. The irony of referencing a champion on inclusion while you try to keep people as second class citizens is hilarious.
scav
@jonas: All of those are fundamentally about control. Also the control of children, (schools, labor, whatever). So yes, there’s a control of people aspect. But, if they don’t control what “believers” witness actually occuring about them, oh, dear, small germs of doubt about all the holy truths being dished might enter in. I don’t think the leaders really trust the strength of “faith” and “belief” of their followers. They’ve got to control the total environment so it seems they’re the only game in town. True believers wouldn’t be concerned that they were surrounded by the lost, more heaven for them. And why would their god allow for — shit, create! — the possibility of sin if it wasn’t a real option and danger to be overcome? These wankers have just put themselves above their god by trying to legislate away free will.
yodecat
@Gravenstone: “But the only damned thing that should legally matter is the civil union aspect of it.”
Heh. You wanna get married? Go down to the courthouse, apply for a marriage license, sign it with witnesses and pay de money. That’s it. No church needed. The civil union thingie is the only aspect of marriage that matters.
BottyGuy
When I hear children being petulant like this, or when I realize that I’m the one heaving myself up on the cross, I always think of the Tom Waits song “Come On Up To The House”
http://www.tomwaits.com/songs/song/158/Come_On_Up_To_The_House/
All your cryin don’t do no good
Come on up to the house
Come down off the cross
We can use the wood
Come on up to the house
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzapgZI5SEc
Mandalay
@jl:
They don’t and they won’t, regardless of how SCOTUS rules.
The signators are effectively saying that they would not obey a SCOTUS ruling (supporting gay marriage), even though such ruling would not impose any requirements on them.
And of course they know this. It’s just a stunt to raise ka-ching.
FWIW, this is the full text of their pledge, but it’s not worth reading. It’s a mishmash of complete nonsense, that rambles on about MLK, the Nuremburg trials and Dred Scott.
Aleta
@Mike J: great point
shell
I’m sure the Supremes are all a-tremble over this “We will not obey.” threat.
Amazing the deluded self-importance of some folks.
Villago Delenda Est
I’m not seeing what it is that the Supreme Court is compelling the signees to do?
No one is going to force any of these religious whackjobs to conduct gay marriages. They can opt out of that. No one is forcing them to serve pizzas at gay wedding receptions.
Botsplainer
@NCSteve:
I got myself named a minister online for free about 15 years ago on a lark – the certificate was from an outfit that used to be mail order, and whose “pastors” had been marrying people in this area for decades before. I suspect I can actually marry people on that certification, and then divorce them later on as a lawyer.
The ultimate one-stop shop.
Waspuppet
I’m sure if these people were black and not affiliated with a church, everyone would calmly accept this as a patriotic expression of deeply held principles.
Josie
@burnspbesq: Do you honestly believe that John Cole doesn’t know that? You need to have your snark-o-meter checked. Just because you know a lot of law doesn’t mean that everyone else doesn’t know any. Lighten up.
burnspbesq
@Gravenstone:
Wrong. Calling it anything other than “marriage” stigmatizes it. You OK with that?
burnspbesq
@Josie:
AYFKM? Cole is proud of his ignorance.
Baud
@burnspbesq:
What if we called it “mawwiage”?
Randy Khan
@Peale:
Perfect. Absolutely perfect.
boatboy_srq
@Gravenstone: @burnspbesq: The problem is that “marriage” is so thoroughly embedded into the rest of the legal sphere that replacing “marriage” with “civil union” and “spouse” with “civil partner” is more difficult than convincing 5 Supremes that SSM is a good and legal thing. Civil unions have been tried – in a number of states – and the shortcomings have been pretty scary: no power-of-atty for financial/healthcare decisions, no assumed healthcare surrogacy, no authority for end-of-life decisions, no control as survivor re: partner’s wishes for burial/memorial/whatever. It’s like comparing a Montgolfier with an Airbus: they both fly, but I know which I’d rather cross the ocean in.
scav
@Marmot: Smart ones won’t panic, think of it as separating the wheat from the chaff. I’m restraining myself from giggling at the thought of the Gov actually having to call FEMA in for help, while simultaneously monitoring Federal Troops elsewhere because of fears of FEMA camps and invasion. Actual people getting actually hurt are a requirement of that scenario.
Villago Delenda Est
@Marmot: Well, the problem is that the state’s leadership just didn’t fall out of the sky. They were installed by a majority of those who bothered to vote.
Which means there are some really stupid idiots in Oklahoma voting for really stupid idiots in Oklahoma’s political offices.
Aleta
@BottyGuy: perfect. thanks, I needed that.
Josie
@burnspbesq: Boy, has he got you fooled.
karen marie
Last time I checked, none of those wankers have any control over or responsibility for issuing marriage licenses. What are they going to do – hold their breath? We can only hope.
scav
@Villago Delenda Est: Christ, I’m behind, what has OK done, I’m still amusing myself with TX.
Mike J
@jonas:
The same place it did after slavery was abolished.
Mike in NC
Liked the bit about “Samaritan’s Purse”. Perfect for a grifting, god-bothering bigot like Franklin Graham.
Villago Delenda Est
@scav: I don’t know, and frankly, I can’t tell what Marmot is upset about with your post.
But my comment applies to every state with lunatics at the controls: Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas, Tennessee, Florida, North Carolina, Maine, Wisconsin…
Booger
Why, that’s a veritable ‘Who’s who’ of bilious sanctimonious hypocritical asshole-dom.
trollhattan
@kc:
“We’ll grow more. Send water.”
Respectfully,
California
Tree With Water
Never saw the show myself, but the creator of The Wire had this to say about presidential toe tester Marty O’Malley (as posted at The Washington Monthly.com):
“The drug war began it, certainly, but the stake through the heart of police procedure in Baltimore was Martin O’Malley. He destroyed police work in some real respects. Whatever was left of it when he took over the police department, if there were two bricks together that were the suggestion of an edifice that you could have called meaningful police work, he found a way to pull them apart”.
Bernie Sanders presidential stock just skyrocketed from one to two point five percent… and somewhere, Jim Webb ponders….
CONGRATULATIONS!
@jl: Seems to me they should be prohibited from doing so. Who’d want one of those evil motherfuckers anywhere near them?
Peanutcat
Look, no one’s forcing you to get married, gay or otherwise. If you don’t want to get gay-married, then don’t. It’s that simple . . . . .
Felonius Monk
I’m not sure what this dire warning from these bozos is supposed to mean. It sounds like they just pulled up in the Don Quixote klown-car to tilt at some imaginary windmills.
Howard Beale IV
Dear sigantories of the the so-called “Pledge in Solidarity to Defend Marriage”.
You need a Biblical remedial lesson from America’s Best Christian herself, Betty Bowers.
boatboy_srq
@Peanutcat: I can’t help wondering how many of the bilious a##wipes who signed onto the Townhall garbage are secretly terrified that they’d be required to divorce their wives and marry their boyfriends. And then I remember who we’re talking about, and I can’t think of a single gay man who’d want any of them.
Keith G
I am very sure that the statement from the above listed religious leader will be 100% effective in it’s intended use as it becomes the highlighted feature in the next round of fundraising and “Love Gift” requests.
Felonius Monk
@Omnes Omnibus: And Christians did not invent the concept of marriage. It existed long before there were any legal systems or organized religions.
Roger Moore
@Peale:
What a great way of putting it.
raven
@Tree With Water: The show was great and this is the entire interview.
scav
@Felonius Monk: They didn’t even bother with much of a presence at wedding until more or less around the Fourth Council of the Lateran, no? Went along with local custom, and maybe a priest would show up and bless things. Fathers officiated in parts of Europe. Cultural Innovation at that point was the social power grabs by the established church. Even then, you had to stand outside the church for the the longest time. Even the whole sacrament of marriage was elevated into order to bring under tighter control all those heretics like the Cathars. The Eternal and Inviolate Truths of Church Teaching and custom.
sharl
@Tree With Water: Methinks O’Malley might have gone into damage-control mode (bolding is mine).
I don’t think Weigel’s story is up yet; he probably still needs to transcribe his tape of the interview.
Germy Shoemangler
@JPL: Wildstein will spill the beans?
MomSense
No one is forcing them to perform same sex marriage ceremonies. There are lots of clergy who feel that their religious freedom is impinged when they are not allowed to legally perform same sex marriages.
Roger Moore
@MomSense:
Sure, but they aren’t Real Christians®, so they don’t count.
The Dude
I hate you gays so much because you’re evil and immoral and handsome and sexy!!!
Omnes Omnibus
@The Dude: Have you perhaps read too many Ann Rice novels?
David M
Oh noes, our plan for the mandatory gay forced abortion marriages will not succeed!
I don’t even get what they are talking about with civil disobedience. Of what? People they don’t know are going to get married, same as ever. Now some of them might be two dudes or two women, but there’s still nothing for them to actually protest about unless they are joining the Westboro Baptists.
The Dude
@Omnes Omnibus:
Ha, that was a pretty awesome autocorrect error.
Also, the answer is Yes.
Peale
@sharl: I’m confused by this timeline. I’m trying to find articles on it and it looks like COPE in Baltimore ended in 1992. Also I can’t find articles on why it might have been done. I see that it got great reviews in the 80s, but that doesn’t mean the division wasn’t a problem by the time it was cut.
Corner Stone
“Don’t you step over that line! Don’t you do it!”
“Don’t you step over *this* line, or else I’ll get mad!”
“This line right here! *This* one now! Don’t you step over it, or else!”
“I’m warning you SCOTUS! This is the last line I’m gonna draw!”
“*This* is the very last one, I promise! Don’t you step over it!”
Corner Stone
@The Dude:
*cue straight up old school style mug down*
/annnddd…scene.
Corner Stone
@sharl: Simon just flat eviscerates O’Malley in that interview.
He also disembowels him, to be fair.
Corner Stone
@Keith G: I’m not sure how anyone even reads that pledge and doesn’t have their eyes bug out cartoon style while hearing the old car horn “Cahoooogaa!!” with dollar signs for eyeballs.
Howard Beale IV
@David M:
I’m surprised those cranks didn’t sign that-someone needs to send that to them to sign, then we’ll see how quickly the rest of those signatories will distance themselves from it.
Even better, I’m waiting for The Catholic League, Opus Dei, the Conference of American Bishops and ISIS to sign it. Then you know that shit’s gotten real.
Corner Stone
This is just awesomesauce:
Hal
37 states already recognize same sex marriage. Why is our loving God in the sky waiting for all 50 before he can smite all the sinners?
Hungry Joe
I’ve been trying to come up with an analogy to their nonsensical declaration, but I can’t make anything work. It’s like … let’s see … “I neither watch nor play football, but if there’s a rule change about pass interference I’m not going to obey it”? Nope. How about “I don’t own any slaves, but I’m going to defy the Emancipation Proclamation anyway”? Closer, but not quite there. See what I mean?
Redshift
@MomSense: Since Scalia brought it up in court despite it being completely ludicrous, presumably the story going around right-wing media is that if the Court decided for marriage equality, ministers will be prosecuted if they refuse to perform gay weddings.
fuckwit
Tax the churches. Tax the fuck out of the churches — Frank Zappa
How much money exactly would be raised by doing that? Taxing all their income and property too? Probably more than enough to eliminate the deficit and provide a secular, non-religious social safety net.
jayjaybear
@boatboy_srq: I wish I could say that. There are plenty of golddiggers and desperate men on the G Side, I’m afraid.
sharl
@Corner Stone:
He sure does.
FYI/FWIW, Weigel’s post on his interview with O’Malley is now up.
I found the David Simon interview a whole lot more informative, but then Simon knows Baltimore far better than Weigel. Also, Weigel’s beat is U.S. politics, which is reflected in the content and tone of his Bloomberg post. Weigel does note some of the criticisms of O’Malley, but judging from that post, O’Malley ain’t apologizing for nuttin, and continues to take credit for lowered crime rates back in the day, justified or not.
I don’t think this is over by a long shot for him – especially with Bernie Sanders now in the ring – but right now O’Malley is keeping his cool.
scav
@Redshift: If we’re all to be marrying our own two 25-year-old lesbians that California has promised to deliver, Damned sure we’re going to have to draft all those unwilling duty-evading clerics in to handle the volume. Heard it was going to be part of the accreditation process. One month a year in the FEMA camp, gay-marrying, every year, God-Pilots have to accumulate the hours just like those other pilots with actual wings.
Bobby Thomson
@jl: just their deliberate dishonesty. Which Cole plays into, BTW. That’s all you missed.
Tree With Water
“The prospect of death row inmates being “burned alive at the stake from inside” in the absence of effective anesthesia was invoked at the US supreme court on Wednesday as the justices wrestled with the nationwide crisis caused by the European-led boycott of lethal injection drugs”…
.. at one point Justice Alito was heard to mutter under his breath, “What the hell are we doing here? Has the country run out of rope”? Towards the end of the hearing today Justice Kennedy was likewise overheard to ask Alito, “Do you think a person is still cognizant after being guillotined”?
Bobby Thomson
@Starfish: you mean another one?
sharl
@Peale: If you haven’t done so already, take a look at that David Simon article linked by raven (#96), myself (#118), and maybe others I missed. It might answer your questions on the timeline a bit, although I don’t recall Simon providing hard and fast data on the sequence/times that police policies in Baltimore were changed. But Simon covered the police beat for the Baltimore Sun during a lot of those early days, and he certainly seems to have a good feel for what happened, and (at least approximately) when.
shortstop
@Hal: That’s not how a loving god works. He needs for us ALL to see how wrong, wrong, wrong and did I mention wrong we are and sobbingly admit our error to the Troo Believers as we descend into the lake of fire screaming fruitlessly for mercy. Or so goes the mental fantasy when the Troo Believers whack off to it every night.
Howard Beale IV
@Tree With Water: Funny thing is that there’s plenty of large-animal tranquilizers that can be repurposed to be used in the three-drug cocktail.They even come packed with antidotes in case of accidental injections in humans.
The problem? Not FDA approved for use in humans.
Unfortunately, the Russians showed us the right path to take with their botched rescue attempt in the theater when they used a halothane derivative to try to knock out everybody but wound up killing people.
As far as I’m aware, Japan and Iran still use the noose for capital punishment, while Saudi Arabia loves decapitation, with an occasional crucifixion now and then.
As far as Justice Kennedy’s question goes, perhaps if decapitation was ever approved as a form of capital punishment we might want to instrument a condemned prisoner’s head with an EEG to answer his morbid question. Actually, someone might want to ask that question to him in an open forum in the future. I’d love to see him try to answer that.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Botsplainer: Yeah, but can you provide 25 year old lesbians?
Corner Stone
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Can…umm…asking for a friend.
Tehanu
The “Christian” bakers, florists, pizza makers, etc., going totally against what Christ told them in the Sermon on the Mount*, keep whining about not wanting to “contribute” to or “participate” in gay weddings. Since when is demanding cash money for a product “contributing” to anything? Or making you, the baker et al., a “participant”? What they really want is for society to protect them without holding up their end of the deal by obeying society’s rules when that conflicts with their bigotry.
* “Whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him two miles.”
chopper
@Corner Stone:
you want 25 lesbians that are one year old? you’re sick.
Howard Beale IV
BREAKING: Bernie Sanders formally announces he’s running for Preznit.
Gravenstone
@Omnes Omnibus: Let’s just say I’m going for the rebranding. Make civil union the legal construct and marriage the religious window dressing.
Kyle
@Gravenstone: So if you are a government employee who conducts marriages (e.g., court clerks), you cannot refuse to perform the civil ceremony for gay folk, even if you are offended by it. But no one is claiming that ministers are required to perform the religious ceremonies. Their claims to the contrary are just to inflame. As to cookies, pizzas, cakes, flowers and such, if you are operating a business then you should not be able to deny services because you object to gay folk, just like you should not be able to deny services based on race, ethnicity or religion.
Peale
@Gravenstone: yeah. It’s too late for that. Sorry. At least it is for me. I was for what you say ten years ago or so, but the opposition to even civil unions, or even a simple database to register names changed my mind. Nope. Since the right stood in the way of even second class citizenship, they will need to share marriage if the time comes.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Howard Beale IV:
I suspect a sufficient dose of demotidine Hcl or xylazine Hcl would do the trick, and in combination would be pretty reliable. But, not FDA approved…
Patrick
@Tehanu:
What bothers me is their sheer hypocrisy. I don’t see them refusing to bake any cake for anybody who has coveted their neighbor’s wife. Hell, they don’t even ask their ask their customers if they have coveted their neighbor’s wife. So, clearly they are choosing what to believe in their bible.
princess leia
As many have said – disconnect the legal and the religious. The state defines and offers the legal union only. You want the sacrament of Matrimony? Work it out with a priest. Many countries (like Mexico) have a complete separation of the two.
Gravenstone
@Peale: I can respect some good old fashioned spite as motivation to retain the word. They certainly deserve it.
Peale
@Gravenstone: In part it was those constitutional bans that changed my mind, specifically the one in my home state. There’s this idea that got promulgated even by nominal allies that if the gays and lesbians would just compromise, we’d win something. That compromise in Wisconsin took the form of domestic partnership registrations which passed. Then Walker came in and tried to undo that compromise. Wouldn’t budget for creating the registry and wouldnt defend it in court. Sorry, there really isn’t a point in compromising if a change in party control means that those partnerships can be lost.
shortstop
@Peale: The other piece of this is that, for all their whining about the courts “overturning the will of the voters” (which gets traction with their slack-jawed base, which couldn’t define separation of powers at gunpoint), they brought this judicial ending upon themselves. At the first hint of approaching equality, they rushed to enshrine discrimination into state law and in state constitutions, and many states banned civil unions just as spiteful lagniappe.
Because they refused to permit even the barest public or legislative discourse on this subject, pro-equality folks had no choice but to petition the courts for their civil rights. And now the bigots are whining that this should have been left up to state legislatures or voter referenda. Some of them, apparently having reached the bargaining stage of the grieving process, are now perkily suggesting that hey, maybe LGBT citizens could settle for civil unions! I laugh heartily at their bewildered impotence.
Matt McIrvin
@jl: The only thing I can figure is, they’re going to order their for-profit-business-owner parishioners to discriminate against gay people: refuse to serve gays, hunt down gay employees and fire them, that kind of thing.
Of course, in most places this behavior is perfectly legal anyway, so it’s not disobedience of any laws, just of common decency.
Ruckus
@scav:
Are you saying that the rabid believers don’t really believe all their own bullshit? My, my, what a revolting development.
Botsplainer
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Any 25 year old lesbians must be provided by the celebrants. I jealously guard my own supply of that valuable California commodity.
Matt McIrvin
@Gravenstone: People propose this every so often, but I don’t see why I should stop calling my completely non-religious marriage a marriage, just because somebody else insisted that the word refers primarily to a religious sacrament. It doesn’t!
The legal civil union is called “civil marriage”. The only reason I can see to drop the term is that some homophobic religionist thinks gay marriages have cooties and doesn’t want the word “marriage” used for them. But it wouldn’t even solve that problem, since of course the Unitarians and the United Church of Christ would keep on producing religious gay marriages anyway. And calling them “civil unions” wouldn’t really satisfy them either, as we can see by the fact that most of the anti-gay-marriage state constitutional amendments banned civil unions too.
Citizen Alan
@burnspbesq:
Well, it’s obviously not going to happen any time soon, but it’s not inconceivable that in the future the law will CHANGE at which point church taxation should occur. Particularly if the churches continue to eschew actual charitable work in favor of political activism or simply just squandering their tax exempt dollars on nicer pews and a basketball gym out back that only the members get to use.
Citizen Alan
@fuckwit:
I was amused a few years back to learn that the 1st Presbyterian Church in the town where I live owns a plot of land adjacent to the church which it leases to various bars. I got involved tangentially in a property dispute where the Church was trying to strong-arm out a renter whose bar went under but who found he could make more money by subleasing the property to ANOTHER bar. The church elders got pissed off that they weren’t maximizing their profits. God vs. Mammon indeed.
Zinsky
The Lost Cause. Dead-enders. America has been cursed by these low-functioning, usually politically conservative, usually with religious fundamentalist leanings, shitbags since Reconstruction. Fuck ’em. They are on the wrong side of history and always have been.
pluege
that’s what should happen, but unfortunately won’t. These fine upstanding objectors are way too important to take away their taxpayer-funded bloviating cash-cow.
Howard Beale IV
If SCOTUS come back in the affirmatve, what will the head of Alabama Supreme Court Roy “Ten Commandments” Moore do? I’m surprised he hasn’t signed that declaration yet.
Amazing this is that the citizens of AL put him right back in office. According to his Wikipedia article:
Reading the rest of his Wiki article, I fully expect him to go totally commando should SCOTUS rule in the affirmative.
Roy Moore is another individual to add to the Render No Aid/Assiatance list.
.
Howard Beale IV
@Citizen Alan:
Operation Snow White, anyone?
(Too bad there’s no Operation Pasta E Fagioli…..)
Lynn Dee
@Iowa Old Lady:
Exactly. It’s not like they make pizzas.
J R in WV
Several remarks.
Executions: Why not just use heroin, get the criminal as stoned as anyone ever was, and then keep shooting them up until they totally forget to breathe? The books all say that 10-12 mg will do it, so you just need to get enough to stone a (large) horse, and fix the criminal up til he stops.
I understand the current street price is now going down, so costs won’t be an issue.
Marriage, gay, holy rollers rejection of: I’m with everyone else, what are they thinking that a decision in favor of freedom to marry will require them to do, that they plan to refuse? I think they are already very confused if they think they are involved in any way with same-sex marriages.
And really, given what we have learned about amorphous sexuality, who can tell when a given wedding is same-sex or not? Really! If Steve and Adam want to get married, in the big ol church wedding style, they could flip a coin, and one of them could be trans for the weekend, gorgeous dress, bridesmaids (or two sets of groomsmen, maybe) then go on the honeymoon as Steve and Adam.
Now that would confuse them! Kidding here, folks. Humor is one of the best weapons against this crazy talk, peaceful boycott, yes yes, but of what? That doesn’t appear to be in the document. They’ll need to pry it off the cathedral door, and amend the text to specify what they’re gonna refuse to do, and nail it back up.
And then pay for the damage to the doors. And if they try to nail then to the Supreme Courthouse doors, well, that’s terrorism, AND they’ll have to pay to fix the doors, too.
Now I’ve read their screed, and it’s full of big words that I don’t think mean what the authors think they mean. And vague about what it is they will civilly disobey with their civil-disobedience. They never get specific about what they think the court(s) may be trying to force them to do, which is a big darn problem for their crusade.
Maybe they will refuse to see those wedding rings on that nice couple ring fingers?
Maybe they plan to call the wives Miss Roberts instead of Mrs. Roberts, or MS Roberts? I dunno about the husbands!
I’m reaching for help here, folks! What will they refuse? If you have any good ideas, post them here in this thread, and we can send a link to Chief Justice Roberts, so the justices will know what havoc they will unleash on the civil society we now live in if they give the freedom to marry to everyone, instead of not trusting some of us to be worthy of being blissfully wedded!
I’m done, not one more humorous thought occurs to me. And now you know why I don’t work in commercial comedy!! System design documents don’t need humor, just specificity! And logic! but no humor needed…
Howard Beale IV
@J R in WV:
Requires the Justice Department to reschedule heroin as Schedule II. But no one in the US manufactures heroin, so either the Feds gets into the heroin manufacturing business – fat chace – or the states buy from overseas – and the second that happens, you get the EU drug manufactures doing the prohibited drug sales to state governments like they did for the first drug in the three drug cocktail.
Frankly, I’m thinking of using a gas chamber approach, but the condemmed is strapped to the gurney, then a full mask is secured, and then he’s gassed continuously with halothane or a derivative, then with nickel carbonyl (to bind hemogobin), then finally with cyanide gas.
OTOH, If I had a 10 Megawatt X-Ray Laser which could in one pulse vaporize a 250-lb person, how inhumane could that be?
Peale
@Howard Beale IV: wouldn’t it make sense as part of the TPP negotiations for some of those countries in the golden triangle to demand that the U.S. legalize one of their chief exports?
Howard Beale IV
The problem isn’t there they are not legal, the problem is that the drug is not being used for the purpose intended and is being ordered by a non-medical facility (Bureau of Prisons)
TriassicSands
Oh, No! A bunch of delusional clerical types, who believe their fantasies are real, will now throw constant tantrums because they can’t force their beliefs down the throats of the rest of society. Can we expect angry demonstrations outside of Las Vegas chapels? With any luck their protest will take the form of widespread breath-holding. Theirs is the surest statement of why extreme religion is the enemy of democratic society. The loyalty of zealots is first to their imaginary God.
SWMBO
@Gravenstone: The Jesus Freaks are trying to blur the line between marriage and holy matrimony. Marriage is the legal construct that is codified into law. Holy Matrimony is what is blessed by the church.
Gretchen
Rod Dreher has really been something the last couple of weeks. Hair on Fire and end-times dialed up to 11 barely describes it. He’s got a long quote today from a guy who thinks progressives are going to be “burning houses in the streets” (where else would you burn houses?), barbarians, “rapine” (what?), the end times are totally coming. What do you readers think? I think that guy needs to get back on his meds, and Dreher too. They’re completely convinced that the end times are here, it’s all going to blow up, they”re going to be persecuted for their religion. They’re really enjoying this fantasy of themselves as Thomas More being led to the hangman, quietly and bravely believing in their God until the end. It’s like they’re the star of their own movie, and they don’t want reality to interfere with the realization that the extent of the persecution they’re going to suffer is that somebody is going to think they’re a bigot.
Sherparick
@jonas: Yep:-)
Sherparick
By the way, what are they being asked to obey or follow? Also the post hoc ergo fallacies these people use. People break out in riots after a man dies in police custody after being arrested for riding a bicycle while black is apparently the LGBT communities fault for demanding “Gay Marriage.” Which is the fault of women liberation, equality, and feminism that took women out of the appropriate submissive roles of wife, mother, or whore that had been held in place since the agricultural revolution, which came about because the racial classifications of American life and segregation were outlawed in the sixties, which of course was the final consequence of the abolition of slavery, and society based on it so well portrayed in “Gone With the Wind,” of utopian white, male, upper class, patriarchy, where all the lower orders knew their places and kept to them. So ultimately it is all Abraham Lincoln’s fault that we now have Gay Marriage. Santorum and Perkins can just suck on it.
Sherparick
@Howard Beale IV: I got a great idea. Why don’t we stop it. Just abolish the death penalty. Its time has gone. Texas, Florida, and Virginia all execute people whether they are guilty or innocent. Illinois alone has released 13 prisoners from death row who were discovered to be innocent. http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-and-innocence
It appears being poor, black, and mentally ill are the chief reasons for getting on death row, or a prosecutor believes you are his ticket to the political big time like Cameron Todd Willingham, then you get the death penalty whether guilty or not. Some deterrent.
Paul in KY
@burnspbesq: They believe all kinds of stupid shit. Maybe they’ll believe that.
Paul in KY
@Howard Beale IV: Tolkien’s elves form of capital punishment was throwing you off a high cliff. Quite effective, as it would kill any elf (generally immortal to age/disease & probably certain forms of poison).
Jado
@Marmot:
Because if it’s not fragile, there is no need for their services. Sort of like the Mafia
Shantanu Saha
If this is the hill they are going to die on, I’ll thank them to do it quickly and clear the way for more rational folk.
smartalek
@Aimai:
“Im dumping my old man. He’s fifty and im changing him for two twentyfive year old lesbians.”
Remember what you learned in kindygarten:
Always share with your friends.
Jebediah, RBG
@Botsplainer:
Synergy!
smartalek
@Baud:
“HOW are they going to do their civil disobedience?”
“Heterosexual sex-ins!”
That might get me to check out a church.
But only if the congregation weren’t primarily octogenerians.
Yes, I’m horrifically ageist in that regard; sue me.
smartalek
@
“kc:
“Look, if everyone does this, there won’t be enough 25-year-old lesbians to go around.
Let’s not be greedy.”
We can always recruit more from among the offspring of good conservative straight people.
That’s where gays and lesbians come from, doncha know.