When Mosby announced charges several weeks ago for the cops who killed Freddie Gray, their union freaked out and acted the fool:
Let me begin by stating how appalled and frustrated we are at this morning’s events and the information announced by State’s Attorney Mosby. We are disappointed in an apparent rush to judgment given the fact that the investigation into this matter has not been concluded. Our officers, like every other American citizen, are entitled to due process and we will continue to support them throughout the judicial process which we believe will result in a finding of innocence.
We also promise all of our active duty officers that we will continue to work diligently to ensure that you will receive the necessary support from the FOP to enable you to complete your mission safely.
Their twitter feed basically looks like a case study in right-wing victimhood. At any rate, I can’t wait to see the response to this:
A grand jury indicted all six officers charged in the case of Freddie Gray, who died of injuries he suffered in police custody, allowing the state’s attorney to press ahead with the most serious charges despite criticism that she was part of an “overzealous prosecution.”
The indictments announced Thursday were similar to the charges Baltimore State’s Attorney Marilyn Mosby announced nearly three weeks ago. The most serious charge for each officer, ranging from second-degree “depraved heart” murder to assault, stood, though some of the lesser alleged offenses had changed.
Gray suffered a critical spinal injury April 12 after police handcuffed, shackled and placed him head-first into a van, Mosby has said. His pleas for medical attention were repeatedly ignored.
Gray’s death a week later spawned protests that on two occasions gave way to violence and looting. In the wake of the riots, Democratic Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake implemented a curfew and Republican Gov. Larry Hogan declared a state of emergency.
Mosby said prosecutors presented evidence to the grand jury for the past two weeks. Some of the charges were changed based on new information, but she didn’t say what that was. She also did not take questions.
“As is often the case, during an ongoing investigation, charges can and should be revised based upon the evidence,” Mosby said.
Now whatcha got to say, jackasses?
Baud
Probably the same things. Facts don’t matter.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: How PoMo.
Irony Abounds
I’m not saying for a second that the cops don’t deserve all the bad things they are getting, but a grand jury indictment isn’t all that more telling than a prosecutor’s decision to charge someone, since grand juries can be so easily manipulated by the prosecutor. In fact, because it may mean even less because it ostensibly gives the prosecutor some cover if the case is a borderline situation. Again, don’t take what I’m saying as a defense of the police, I’m just pointing out the realities.
RSR
It’s good, but a grand jury indictment is only a first step. Still, I think it’s a significant step, for the process and the system.
Let’s see how the trial(s) go(es).
Any word on weather the indicted will stand trail together or separately?
Gravenstone
Knew this was a Cole post, just from the title.
Major Major Major Major
@RSR: I think you need a more formal syntax for that phrase. How the (trial goes|trials go){1} should do it.
Patricia Kayden
Doesn’t matter what they say. Just hope the right jury is picked.
Little Boots
soo angryyy.
Little Boots
john? anger? why?
Little Boots
actually, get it honey. yeah, that sucks.
Little Boots
or boots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbyAZQ45uww
Cacti
The next move will be a motion for a change of venue to adequately caucasian suburb or exurb.
lamh36
Ugh, OT, but I’m just getting home from work and finding out about the shit that went down with the Duggar son and allegations of abuse…Well actually seems a statement was released and Duggar kid admitted it.
The silence in the media so far is interesting. I won’t link it, but I’ll just give a TRIGGER WARNING to anyone who doesn’t know about it and decides to google it.
Personally, there has always been something fishy with this family. But too many people on their high horse accusing folk skeptical of Jimbo and wife of just crucifying “Christian” folk. If true? I say take the show off. What makes Duggars better than Honey Boo Boo and nem
Little Boots
still no steeplejack? really?
Cacti
@lamh36:
Bill O’Reilly and Duggar kid will shortly be blaming hip hop.
srv
Cops are ham sandwiches too.
But I’ll predict most of the trials will be turkeys.
Kropadope
Fortunately, Balloon Juice has a wide range of right-wing professional victims at whom this question may be directed.
Major Major Major Major
@srv: not the Garner cops.
sphouch
The grand jury indictment really doesn’t mean much. I think most attorneys would tell you that getting am indictment is pretty easu. IIRC, all it takes is a “mere scintilla” of evidence, and the prosecution gets to present this free of any defense involvement. At least, that’s what I remember from my advocacy class, but it’s been 8 years and I don’t do trial work, and I’m in a different state, so I could be way of base.
David Koch
Thanks Obama
Major Major Major Major
@sphouch: Preponderance of the evidence is the standard for a grand jury pretty much everywhere, if I recall correctly.
Mike J
Cops in Olympia shot two kids suspected of stealing beer from Safeway. TV news reported with no irony that the victims had already been questioned, the cop will be questioned next Tuesday.
Omnes Omnibus
@sphouch:
Sure, and a lot of us were saying it about Ferguson.
Little Boots
or omnes, whatever.
raven
Sunset over the ICW
Little Boots
though omnes can be so pompous.
annoying.
slag
After the most recent 99% Invisible in which they specifically discussed the medical examination procedures in Baltimore, I got to wondering what part the ME process played in other cases we heard about recently.
burnspbesq
@Patricia Kayden:
Care to elaborate on what you mean by that?
JPL
@lamh36: So does this mean they won’t be on the Today show anymore. What a great family to allow their son, abuse others during a four year time frame.
When I was younger decades and decades ago, I can remember talk about gypsies, and the Duggars always reminded me of that.
btw, That episode with the son just brought them closer to god.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: I was going with something about a ham sandwich, but that’ll work.
burnspbesq
@sphouch:
Supposed to be probable cause, and the ABA Crim Law Section and the NACDL both say that the prosecutors should have an ethical obligation to present exculpatory evidence, but my sense is that that hardly ever happens.
Little Boots
@BillinGlendaleCA:
oh, great.
PaulW
they’ll probably say things “we need to move this trial to another city so there won’t be bias in the jury pool,” or “if the jury knows what’s good for them, they won’t make it harder for the good cops to do their job.”
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Irony Abounds:
If it was so easy to get an indictment against cops, shouldn’t there have been indictments for Michael Brown’s and Eric Garner’s deaths?
It looks like the Freddie Grey case is so egregious that even a grand jury can’t find an excuse for snapping the guy’s spine and then driving around until he finally died.
sphouch
Ty burns. I’m in my daughter’s band concert and can’t look it all up now. I remember learning it, but couldn’t remember the exact standards. Been to long.
JPL
@lamh36: Now that Josh resigned from the Family Research Council, who will protect us from the gays? hmmm..
lol
Who will protect his sisters?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Little Boots: Although I’m EVIL, I’ll still answer your question from downstairs. Bernie’s not a member of the Democratic Party even after announcing his run for President, he does caucus with the democrats in the Senate.
ETA: I agree with MikeJ that I only vote for Democats in the democratic primary.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Or Mosby made an actual good faith effort to get the indictment.
Little Boots
@BillinGlendaleCA:
you are not evil. did I see evil?
I said evil, didn’t I?
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@lamh36:
With a lot of these fundie groups, the victims are pressured into “forgiving” their molesters right away, told that they’ll go to hell if they don’t forgive, etc. It’s really sick and lets serial molesters get away with it for years because they’ve been “forgiven” over and over and just keep doing it.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Little Boots: Yup.
Little Boots
@BillinGlendaleCA:
well I was wrong, dammit. I can’t be wrong? okay fine.
Little Boots
can it be omnes’ fault?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Little Boots: I blame Obama.
Patrick
@Irony Abounds:
At least, unlike Ferguson, the Grand Jury chose to indict…
Little Boots
@BillinGlendaleCA:
even better.
Patricia Kayden
@burnspbesq: I’ll be blunt — a Black jury is more likely to find these cops guilty in my opinion.
redshirt
The slightest thickness because I will perform the most wicked reaction to each and every hand movement.
And from here – Superman is real!
Mike J
@Patrick:
And the DA in Ferguson put a witness he knew was lying on the stand.
Belafon
For all those saying “it’s just a grand jury” take into account how many other cops we’ve heard about have been indicted. Think about the prosecutor playing the defendant’s lawyer in those other cases.
Yes, we still have a trial to do, but think about how many times these haven’t made it this far.
Keith G
Another step in a very long journey.
SatanicPanic
@lamh36:
I love the understatement in your comment
Elmo
I’m worried about the venue for the trial. If they succeed in changing venue away from Balmer, I think either PG or Charles is the logical choice.
I live at the extreme northern end of Charles – just south of PG – and I shop in Charles and PG. My commute goes through the heart of PG.
Patricia Kayden
@Cacti: Or Obama.
MomSense
Well this is a good start.
Even if we get convictions, and I hope we do, Gray’s family will need a lot of support. Coping with the brutality of his death is a terrible burden they will have to face for the rest of their lives.
Little Boots
@MomSense:
yikes
lige
Slightly off the topic but what I’m wondering is how many of those shot in Waco will be found to have been shot by the police.
raven
@lige: “Among the 9 men killed, how many were shot by police? “Waco authorities said Tuesday they did not have an answer and did not know when they would,” the L.A. Times reports. “The investigation is expected to take weeks or longer as police try to unravel a complicated web of bullet trajectories, shell casings and medical forensics…”
After CNN reported that police killed four of the dead, Sergeant W. Patrick Swanton of the Waco police department declared, “The autopsies have not been completed and that information may very likely be incorrect,” a defensible claim of uncertainty. The Waco Tribune reports that police aren’t even sure exactly how many of the officers present fired their weapons. Given all that Swanton doesn’t know by his own admission, he wasn’t credible when he went on to insist that if any police officers did, in fact, kill one or more of the dead men, they “absolutely saved lives.””
Aleta
@raven: WOWIE
Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant)
@MomSense: Truth.
Botsplainer
Fucking Duggars. Jimbob swept it under the rug.
I blame TLC.
b-more
@MomSense: Not to take away from their tragedy, but Baltimore just hit 100 homicides for the year (for context it didn’t reach that mark until July last year).
TS
@Omnes Omnibus:
First time I ever heard of the “future defendant” appearing before a grand jury. The prosecutor turned the grand jury system completely around and had the defendant as the victim.
Little Boots
and by the way, all you all, you are beautiful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oofSnsGkops
lamh36
@JPL: the question now is how long or how much TLC wants to hold on to this show.
I mean they cancelled Honey Boo Boo for the mother dating a “former” predator. In this case the Duggar’s apparently after going to PD and being “counseled” and let go by a friendly officer (who BTW, is now in prison for child porn charges) had church elders come and counsel the son and the victims…and then that was it!
TLC has a choice on its hands.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus:
Who knew conservatives would be the most ardent practitioners of PoMo? Must confess I didn’t see that one coming.
Baud
@lamh36:
They’ll cancel it…after they milk this.
lamh36
@Baud:
TLC is currently running a marathon of 19 Kids and Counting!
dogwood
I don’t have cable so I’d be interested in knowing if this Duggar story is getting much coverage outside the Internet.
Valdivia
@Baud:
Can they be legally implicated in any way? If it happened while the show was being filmed?
KG
@Valdivia: saw it coming when the Neo-Cons started talking about creating their own reality in re Iraq. that was a dozen years ago or so.
Baud
@Valdivia:
Criminally? Don’t see how, unless they actually did something to abet.
Misterpuff
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Spot on. Juries’ cop bias is well known. Hopefully, this prosecutor will get the jury to see past the bias during the trial.
Little Boots
omnes, billin, steeplejack? nothing?
Baud
@lamh36:
Someone needs to start The Contraception Channel.
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: It first depends on the Howard Baker questions: What did they know and when did they know it? After those are answered, it would depend on what they did with any knowledge they had. If they helped to cover anything up, people might be in trouble.
Valdivia
@KG:
Yes that was the first time I noticed it too, and it has only gotten worse. It’s still surprising though given how gungho these same people were in declaring PoMo the scourge of academia and intellectuality just a few years before.
@Baud: @Omnes Omnibus: thanks for clearing that up. Though I don’t know how much access TLC had to the family while filming, one could imagine that after so many years they could have seen something and could be in trouble. Was just curious if that would be the case if they did and did nothing about it.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Patricia Kayden: The issue is that juries don’t “get picked.” They get “unpicked,” in that “jury selection” is a misleading description.
A venire is assembled, by whatever method a given state or federal district uses, be it registered voter or BMV lists. A group from within the total venire is placed into the jury box, while the others remain in the courtroom. After the preliminaries by the court to eliminate those who cannot serve for the length of the trial, or who know a party or counsel and may not be appropriate on that basis, the questioning begins.
In some jurisdictions, the judge asks all the questions – both those of the court and questions submitted by counsel for each side. In others, counsel may do the questioning. The short version of a longer explanation is that both sides can only winnow out potential jurors that have been placed in the jury box, and they will be replaced with other people who’ve been brought to the courtroom. Peremptory challenges (“the lawyer can dismiss you because she doesn’t like the color of the tie you wore today,” in the words of one of my favorite judges) are limited, and may be made without providing a reason. A challenge for cause will require an assertion that demonstrates cause why a potential juror might not be fair; these challenges are difficult to prove.
In the end, no attorneys pick a jury; they simply try to do the best at eliminating people perceived to be the most likely to be averse to their client’s position. All the picking is done before the potential jurors ever reach the courtroom.
Little Boots
oh good lord, now the lawyer.
Shana
@JPL: His sisters and his three kids (with one on the way)?
lamh36
On Duggars,
What I read says he was confronted at 17? It was multiple girls. Some were his sisters, others were not. The number I’m hearing was 5 girls, don’t quote me on that.
Sorry, but the counseling he seems to have received was from church elders. “The church” doesn’t have a great record when it comes to reporting or handling sexual abuse of children.
Familial molestation is more common than people know, yes, but really hate the need to try to wrap in the same vein as say marital problems or couples counseling type issues. Child molestation should not just be treated as a let’s keep it in the family type counseling.
I know from personal family experience that keeping it within leads to terror for the victim.
Valdivia
@Baud:
They could move that MTV show 16 & Pregnant to it as part of their regular programming.
@lamh36:
Not reporting and dealing with it internally (whatever that is) is sadly pervasive in some Orthodox Jewish groups too.
Little Boots
no omnes?
Baud
@Valdivia:
This thread is making me glad I don’t watch reality TV.
Little Boots
no billin?
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Not even The Great British Baking Show?
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
Not even.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: I say.
Shana
@Omnes Omnibus: Loved The Great British Baking Show! The grand prize? An engraved platter. And they were all nice to each other. None of that back stabbing you get on our (American) reality shows.
Little Boots
and no steeple?
okay.
Steve
@Irony Abounds: exactly
Little Boots
and omnes when he is not so damn angry.
Omnes Omnibus
@Shana: My dad and I were both hooked.
KG
@Valdivia: it always takes conservatives a little while to come around. remember, they opposed medicare (see Reagan’s speech about it being socialized medicine, etc) and now they defend it to the grave. same with social security (mostly). the most recent example I remember is McCain in 2008 basically stealing Gore’s 2000 idea of a social security “lockbox”.
ruemara
What do they got to say? Dude, they’re going to whine and cry and moan LOUDER. That’s all they ever have to say.
Valdivia
@Baud:
I totally get it. The only reality show I watch is So you Think you Can Dance, frustrated ballerina that I am.
Many years ago This American Life had one of their contributors watch tv for a month, the result was as funny as you would expect. And his commentary on reality tv was very much on point.
Having said that. Is there really such a show @Omnes Omnibus: ? why didn’t I know about it and where can I watch it! ETA: ok I found it, I am watching.
Little Boots
@Omnes Omnibus:
wait, on what?
Baud
@Valdivia:
Ballerina, stewardess, archaeologist…is there anything you didn’t want to be?
lamh36
@Valdivia: I love SYTYCD!
Like you it’s the only reality show I watch with any consistency
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: PBS here in the States. It was generally the lead in to Downton Abbey. More here.
Shana
@Valdivia: You’ll love it. Trust me.
dogwood
@Shana:
I’ll have to check out the Baking Show. I’ve got a soft spot for Masterchef Jr. There has been some criticism of its outcomes and the fact that Ramsey and the 2 other male judges seem to favor the boys, but nonetheless, the kids are charming, hilarious and talented. This season has a female judge which is probably a good thing.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: My guess would be she had little interest in being a teen mom.
Valdivia
@Baud:
Lol. I swear I am not as fickle as that list makes me seem! :)
I got over my youthful flirtations with being a stewardess and an archaeologist pretty quickly. Wanting to dance never left me tough. Alas, six feet was not really a good height for dancing when the average height in Costa Rica was much much less. I towered over the whole barre.
@lamh36:
I love that show, love they make all the dancers go through the paces in all the styles.
MomSense
@Shana:
Best show.
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: I watched the first couple of seasons since the ex was a fan.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus: @Shana:
oh thank you guys. Topping my list of shows to watch now.
@KG:
too bad that they caught on to this just in order to destroy institutions and wreak general havoc. At least when they caught on to Medicare etc it was for good. Sigh.
Heliopause
They could say that a grand jury indictment means nothing since a grand jury can be manipulated into indicting a ham sandwich. Of course, that would call into question everything they do for a living.
Baud
@Valdivia:
Damn genetics! But don’t fret. You’ve achieved humanity’s greatest calling — Balloon Juice commenter.
Major Major Major Major
Should I pie Little Boots? Can’t recall anything at all from the past so perhaps they’re just in a mood today?
Little Boots
omnes, you know you can’t ignore me.
Little Boots
@Major Major Major Major:
no, should love little boots
Elizabelle
Now I want a ham sandwich. And there is no ham in the house.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud:
We are doomed as a species.
Little Boots
oh great, omnes is in a damn mood.
Major Major Major Major
@Elizabelle: a house without ham is like a day without sunshine.
Baud
@Elizabelle:
I would stay away from ham sandwiches. I hear they get indicted a lot. Rough crowd.
Valdivia
@Baud:
:) see and I didn’t even have that on my list of youthful aspirations. Rest assured I sneak in a jete here and there whenever I can
@Omnes Omnibus:
that’s how I got hooked on watching Dr Who, through the last ex (I know so woefully late in life to discover that)
Little Boots
Dr Who is awesome. so, no anger?
Little Boots
no steeplejack?
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: I have tried Dr. Who. It didn’t take.
Valdivia
@Little Boots:
no anger about having gotten hooked on the show? or the ex part?
Suzanne
So Spawn the Elder came home really upset, despite the fact that it is the last day of school. One of her best friends confided in her today that he’s planning to commit suicide at the end of the summer. Apparently he has been smoking and cutting, and dropped out of sports, and has been getting counseling, which obviously is not going well. So Mr. Suzanne is getting in contact with the admin and counsellors at the school district, hoping they can help this kid.
I’m so proud of my Spawn. I’m so glad she told us.
Little Boots
@Omnes Omnibus:
cause of the anger?
The Other Bob
No shit butthead, that’s what a Grand Jury and trial are for.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus:
I had seen a couple of the original episodes here and there and they had left me feeling meh. The devoted fandom of the ex combined with Christopher Eccleston did the trick for me.
PurpleGirl
@raven: Wow, that’s great photo. You do have an eye for composition.
Little Boots
or, omnes, or.
Little Boots
why does everyone love omnes? why?
Omnes Omnibus
@Little Boots: Mostly for my charm and wit, I would think. My sense of style and dapper appearance probably don’t hurt.
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: Eccleston was Norfolk in Elizabeth, right?
Little Boots
@Omnes Omnibus:
it does, actually.
Little Boots
@Omnes Omnibus:
can I do duran? will you be angry?
okay, fine, duran:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICnlyNUt_0o
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yes. I’d seen him before in Jude (based on the Hardy novel) and the strange Orthodox Judaism film with Renee Zellweger A Price Above Rubies, but in Elizabeth he made quite an impression.
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: I’ve seen A Price Above Rubies, but nothing from it made any impression on me. I know I have seen it, but that’s it.
PurpleGirl
@Valdivia: I believe he was also in a few of the Cadfael episodes. He played the sheriff, IIRC.
Omnes Omnibus
@PurpleGirl: Yes!. I remember him from that.
Omnes Omnibus
@Little Boots: Here, dammit.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus:
All I remember was the religious setting, and him dressed in garb, but the plot…no memory of it.
@PurpleGirl:
oh another show I love. Now that you mention it that must have been where I first saw him.
@Omnes Omnibus: that song was so cool. and the chemistry there, quite palpable.
PurpleGirl
It can maddening but it’s good in a way that British series have limited numbers of episodes and don’t usually go on for years. It allows the actors to do many different roles and to also do stage work.
ETA: I realize that Dr. Who has been on been years and years, but they changed actors and each actor looked different and gave a slightly different quality to the Doctor.
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: The studio version is quite good, but that performance was just… damn.
burnspbesq
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Am i misremembering, or isnt there a bunch of case law about the use of peremps to keep a particular race or gender off a jury being a big no-no?
Omnes Omnibus
@burnspbesq: How can one prove that race or gender was the reason for a peremp?
Valdivia
@PurpleGirl:
totally agree with this. It also keeps the quality of the shows pretty high, I think, since they never overextend themselves just to fill out a season/time.
@Omnes Omnibus:
damn is right. there was something very electric/mesmerizing in it. I am in your debt now, since you’ve introduced me to a new show and new music.
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: Something a little older, just to placate Caligula. Plus, he’s Sheila E’s uncle (Yeah, she was a crush. What of it?). You have done similar things for me in the past. Part of the upside of this blog.
ETA: Esme Patterson is a discovery for me. I intend to track more stuff down. Plus, Esme is a cool name.
burnspbesq
@Elizabelle:
“Can i take your order, please?”
“Ham and Swiss, in an orange jumpsuit.”
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: @Omnes Omnibus: More Esme Patterson.
burnspbesq
@Omnes Omnibus:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batson_v._Kentucky
Omnes Omnibus
@burnspbesq: Yes, I am aware of Batson, but if I dismiss three white jurors in a case involving the killing of a black kid and someone raises Batson, I can say I saw the first juror’s eyes narrow every time the victim was mentioned. Juror 2? Big fan of CSI. Three, she creeped me out. Done.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus:
The combination of the guitars and violin was perfect. Having Sheila E as a crush should be a point in your favor me thinks.
In spanish we call women with the name Esmeralda, Esme. She seems like an amazing musician, such presence.
@Omnes Omnibus: as I was saying. Lots of presence, talent. A cool fierceness to her.
You know London Grammar I am sure?
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: Yes. Yes, I do.
Debbie(aussie)
@Suzanne: you have a very caring ‘spawn’ here one with maybe higher than the normal levels of empathy. Hope all goes well for her friend and your beautiful teen.
burnspbesq
@Omnes Omnibus:
A well-funded defense would come at you with a statistical analysis of your use of peremptory challenges in every case you ever tried to a jury, and present it in such a way that there is only one logical inference to be drawn. An overworked and underfunded PD would find a subtle way to say “look, Your Honor, this ain’t your first rodeo, you can see what’s happening here.” Gotta take a shot at it, if for no other reason than to preserve the issue for appeal.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus:
Dragonborn Feat Jacob Bellens. Just that name made me curious.
Omnes Omnibus
@burnspbesq: Sure, but I know my tendencies and the jury pool that I have. I am in really white state. The whole panel in the last case I tried as a trial lawyer was all white. Of course, so were the plaintiff and the defendant. And all counsel. Nonetheless, proving a Batson violation is hard.
Edited a bit.
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: The band name is better than the music.
Valdivia
@burnspbesq:
would there be a reason for someone with an advanced degree to be immediately dismissed from jury duty? I have had many colleagues and grad school classmates excused from serving in this way in manhattan.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus:
one word: Europop.
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: The attorney may have decided that a more working class jury benefits his client. Getting rid of the PoMo hipster folks isn’t unreasonable. One wants, within the constraints of the system, to get a jury inclined to be sympathetic to one’s client as possible. There are people who make good livings advising lawyers on the type of juror they want. FWIW, I expect that I will never serve on a jury. Someone will use a peremp on me every time.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus:
it’s what I thought would be the reason but wondered if there was also an assumption that professors being professors would want to take over deliberations. I have never even received a jury summons and would love to serve. Come on DC call me up for jury duty!
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: The fear of someone dominating the deliberation is a real thing. I would strike an MD from a jury if everyone else on the panel was Bachelors or below.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus:
I hope if I get called no one strikes me, but it makes total sense. We professors like to direct any discussion.
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: You should take this as a compliment, but I would strike you from any panel I had. I doubt you will ever serve on a jury if the lawyers do a good voir dire and you are honest with your answers.
mclaren
I’ve never heard of “depraved heart” murder. Is that anything like a charge of “depraved indifference,” which basically amounts to standing around doing nothing while someone is brutalized in front of you?
Frankly, it’s a little surprising that they didn’t trot out the old standby “death by misadventure.” Hey, mistakes happen…
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus:
I take the compliment. I might just have to go see a trial to get my experience vicariously.
Do you like being in court?
mclaren
@Omnes Omnibus:
None of the sane commenters on this forum would ever serve on a jury because none of ’em could ever get through voir dire. A casual mention of the 1735 John Peter Zenger trial, an offhand reference to the fact that juries have been considered judges of the law as well as the facts, and some oblique allusions to the prevalence of judicial corruption and police brutality in America’s so-called “justice” system, and the prosecutor would be standing in a warm puddle. “Your honor, we choose to exercise our option to strike this juror from the pool.”
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: Do I like being in court? Not really. I like the law academically. It is fascinating. I loved law school. The profession, less so.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus: I have a similar/parallel issue: loved grad school, love teaching, writing, not so much the discipline itself and what it requires of me to be able to teach.
mclaren
@Valdivia:
Contra Omnes Omnibus, more the fear that someone with an advanced degree would bring unwelcome knowledge and inconvenient facts into the jury room. For example, someone with a graduate degree would be more likely to know that prior to the late 19th century, judges in America regularly informed juries of their option to use nullification. Whereas in today’s degenerative “justice” system, an attorney who mentions jury nullification in court is likely to cause a mistrial — and if said attorney persists, will typically be cited for contempt of court, and imprisoned.
Or, for example, the fact that someone with an advanced degree is more likely to be aware that eyewitness identification is garage, and much so-called forensic “science” touted in courtrooms nowadays is junk science. Bite mark “evidence” has been conclusively debunked, fiber and hair “evidence” is nothing of the kind but merely suggests that someone with the same hair color or someone with the same carpet make might have committed the crime (unless the hair comes with a follicle, in which case we get DNA evidence, or possibly mass spectrographic evidence if it’s a poisoning case — which is real science, not junk science like bite marks or hair or fiber “evidence”).
For some of the scientific background for the unreliability of eyewitness testimony, see this Scientific American article. In re: bite mark junk science, see “Experts deride bite marks as unreliable in court,” USA Today, 16 July 2013. For the junk science behind fiber “evidence” and hair ‘evidence,’ see the PBS Frontline program “Forensic tools: what’s reliable and what’s not so scientific.” There is a lot of garbage science and junkthink and outright pseudoscientific superstition (*cough* police calling in psychics to provide “leads,” then following those “leads” to some railroaded innocent bystander, or *cough* the use of polygraphs to allegedly “exclude” a person as a suspect, or worst of all *cough cough cough* the use of professional “hired gun” psychiatric so-called experts who will testify that the defendant is a dangerous sociopath without even ever having interviewed the defendant) hauled into court even today. The world of rigorous forensic science depicted in the CSI TV shows is pure myth.
People with advanced degrees are more likely to point this stuff out — as well as educating the jury on issues like Kahneman and Tversky’s cognitive biases, phenomena like “change blindness,” and all that good stuff.
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: My ambition is to be an idle rich man/gentleman scholar. I don’t know if I will achieve it, but I think it would be a nice life.
Valdivia
@mclaren:
loved all the knowledge you dropped right there
I do think this is one of the reasons none of my colleagues ever got to serve on a jury.
mclaren
@Omnes Omnibus:
Especially fascinating, the American legal practice of indicting people for felony murder. Someone borrows your car and commits a murder without telling you? Presto! Change-o! You’re now indicted for felony murder!
Or that marvelous American legal strategy of the judge citing the defense attorney for contempt if s/he mentions jury nullification. Marvelously fascinating, that. Or the standard practice of striking a potential juror from the pool if s/he answers “yes” to the question: “Do you know what jury nullification is?”
Or that fabulous American practice of a judge illegally and uncontitutionally informing a jury just before they’re sent to deliberations that the jurors must ignore this or that fact or piece of evidence. Out here in the real world of the actual American legal system, jurors can consider any goddamn thing they want to, and can legally ignore or take into consideration absolutely anything in rendering their verdict. American judges constantly jam their fingers on the scales of justice by issuing punitive threats to jurors about what they supposedly “must” or “must not” consider in their deliberations. It’s horseshit, unconstitutional, and a perfect illustration of the deep corruption and hopeless depravity of the American injustice system.
“Fascinating” is one word for that spectacle of degeneracy and injustice. The rest of us might be inclined to use another word entirely…
Omnes Omnibus
@mclaren: As an advocate for my client, my job would be to advocate for my client. Right?
@mclaren: I said I found the academic principles of law to be fascinating.
Enjoy your tirade.
mclaren
@Valdivia:
If you want an up-close-and-personal view of how bad the junk science and inadvertent police investigative misconduct can get in a jury trial, read the New Yorker article Trial by Fire.
Basically an innocent guy got railroaded by an overzealous and scientifically illiterate arson investigator, overeager prosecutor, and an infamous hired-gun psychiatric “expert” informally known as “Doctor Death” for his willingness to testify that pretty much anyone is a dangerous psychopath who must be locked up or executed.
The guy was executed for killing his children by arson. But there’s now a great deal of evidence suggesting that he was in fact innocent, and certainly overwhelming scientific confirmation that essentially all the so-called “arson evidence” presented in his trial was pure junk science without a shred of credibility.
Of course, Omnes Omnibus would be inclined to call said New Yorker article a “tirade.”
Valdivia
@mclaren:
I read that article when it came out. Also RadioLab has done a few shows on the unreliability of IDs
AxelFoley
@Kropadope:
Just so happens the dipshit who posted right before you did is one of them.
Omnes Omnibus
@mclaren: Good luck.
mclaren
@Omnes Omnibus:
As an officer of the court, we would hope that your first and foremost duty is to the truth, and to justice.
But that’s just me carrying on with another “tirade,” I guess.
Omnes Omnibus
@mclaren: There are versions of the truth.
mclaren
@Omnes Omnibus:
Ah, yes…versions of the truth.
Omnes Omnibus
@mclaren: Please tell me what I have done wrong, Please. Aw, fuck you, troll.
burnspbesq
@mclaren:
No, that’s you not having a fucking clue what’s in the rules of professional conduct, and completely failing to understand what it means to have an adversarial system. But do rage on. I’ve missed your unique brand of comic relief.
LAC
@burnspbesq: thank you. There is nothing worse than someone on meds cutting and pasting with long winded screeds that could just be summed up with “this (insert whatever) sucks! Eat a gun!”
Aleta
WRT the top of the thread:
Wanted to put this song in last night; better suited to the darkness, and now the thread is over, and WTF.
Austin Lucas https://vimeo.com/3772145
EthylEster
Well, the typical response to this is: a DA can get a grand jury to indict a ham sammich.
But I wouldn’t want to interrupt your rage-gasm.
But I think it is too early to gloat.
Let’s just see what happens at trial..if there is one.
I see Heliopause got there first…