You’ll forgive, I hope, the self promotion here, but I want to draw attention to an essay I have in The Boston Globe today.
It’s about the controversy over the Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT) that is beginning to be constructed at the summit of Mauna Kea on the Big Island of Hawaii. Mauna Kea is one of the world’s most significant sites for optical and near infrared astronomy — it’s already home to thirteen telescopes, including the two largest now in operation in the twin Keck instruments.
The TMT is designed to have a primary mirror three times the diameter of the Keck ten meter light buckets, with nine times the light gathering area. Over the last century — which covers the era of large, mountaintop optical observatorys, each similar leap in telescope size has produced startling, powerful discoveries, and there’s every reason to expect the same of the TMT and its planned southern hemisphere counterparts.
But there’s a catch — or something more fundamental than a mere glitch. Mauna Kea is a sacred site within the Hawaiian tradition, and an environmentally sensitive one, and opposition to TMT has grown from a point of tension to one of direct confrontation. Construction of the TMT has been suspended, and the governor of Hawaii has called for the removal of a quarter of the existing observatories before the TMT itself begins operating.
In the midst of this confrontation, plenty of people have framed the two sides as another battle in the old war between science and religious belief. I say in the Globe today that’s a mistake. A taste:
….the TMT dispute shows where the science versus religion trope goes wrong. The Hawaiian protesters haven’t said that Mauna Kea’s telescopes are inherently impious, or that the data they collect is somehow wrong, or that Hawaiian mythology is a better account of the cosmos. Rather, the value, the joy, the need the observatories satisfy may indeed satisfy many, but not those continuing a Hawaiian tradition that allows its heirs to find connection with memory, with history, with nature — to achieve the same transcendence sought by those who find beauty in the measure of the universe.
That is: The TMT defenders and their opponents seek analogous rewards from their presence on Mauna Kea. Their conflict isn’t between the competing worldviews of science and religion, but between desires that are kin to each other — and that require the same physical space.
Check it out, if your Sunday afternoon tends that way. Let me know what you think.
Image: Johannes Vermeer, The Astronomer, c. 1668.
Botsplainer
Speaking just for me, I no longer give a sloppy, hairy shit about anyone’s deeply held religious beliefs, Abrahamic, animist or otherwise.
Sick of tiptoeing around the irrational.
Xenos
I am off to read it.
As a firm securalist educated as an anthropologist, is sounds like an important and valuable observation on your part.
c u n d gulag
As sensitive as I usually am to native traditions and beliefs, this isn’t a mountain fracking operation, it’s a scientific endeavor.
One that has a limited number of place where that telescope can be placed.
I think the God’s would approve as long as this telescope is used to help humanity understand the Universe, and not rape the mountain-top for perishable resources.
Them’s my $0.02 worth.
debbie
Can’t expect to get anywhere when you’re only looking backward. Besides, I can’t think of anything more awe inspiring than space and the Universe.
Frankensteinbeck
@Botsplainer:
Forget religion. Think of it as a historical site, which the natives of the area have a claim to as important for their ethnicity – an ethnicity that is decidedly not the one in power. It’s similar to building an observatory on the Parthenon, except the Parthenon has a government that really wants to protect it, and these folks got conquered by America long ago. This is not a claim that should be taken as all-powerful, and I don’t know exactly how important it is to them, but it does get my sympathy.
PhoenixRising
Well done, Tom. That is a complex story to write well–because you’re swimming upstream of what everyone knows that ain’t so–and you nailed it. In fact, I passed it on to my sister (who has worked at one of the existing observatories on Mauna Kea, and is presently teaching science writing in the UC system) before I knew it was you.
Commenting at Balloon Juice since 1937
Thank you for writing this. Lately there’s an excess of hubris on the part those that feel man can know everything. This was tempered by the last great war (ww2) but is returning I.e reinventing the mid east. A little humility and respect would be nice. The natives and their culture were there first.
Botsplainer
@Frankensteinbeck:
Problem is, you can say something special about every square inch of dirt on this spinning rock. It is a finite resource, few areas match it for this function and neither megaliths nor people are being displaced for an activity which is not a trivial enjoyment.
Of course, were it up to me most days, Stalin’s methods of dealing with people of deep faith would seem mild by comparison.
A guy
And to think I sent Thursday thru Saturday watching live baseball.
MattF
The difficulty is that, to decide this, you just have to make comparative judgements between the value of the science, as asserted by the scientific community, to the value of the native Hawaiian beliefs, as asserted by… whoever. To me, it seems that there’s an obvious mismatch– but I’m a physicist, so I suppose my opinion doesn’t count.
The Other Chuck
@Commenting at Balloon Juice since 1937:
Nothing compared to the hubris of those who think they’re best buddies with the guy who supposedly created and knows everything. And while I take the side of science, I do think the natives have a pretty valid concern over seeing their spot taken over.
Brachiator
@Frankensteinbeck: Great analogy. I confess that I don’t care about anybody’s cultural traditions, religion or spirituality, when compared to science. On the other hand, it makes sense that a physical location could be as important and as significant as the Parthenon.
I understand that the proposed location is better than others in terms of providing for excellent observations. What would a second best location be like?
Also, of course a great, thought provoking article.
Mike J
@debbie:
Ironically, telescopes look backwards in time.
A guy
Running a fastball up and in after soft away if a religious experience itself
Brachiator
@Commenting at Balloon Juice since 1937: One this world, what human beings dare to know is pretty much the main thing, all there is. I’ve never seen the point of sitting in a dark corner and sucking the thumb of humility.
the Conster
@Frankensteinbeck:
“There are no unsacred places; there are only sacred places and desecrated places.”
– Wendell Berry
scav
@Mike J: I knew I needed to read to the end of the thread before noting same.
debbie
@Mike J:
Well, it’s forward in terms of human knowledge.
MobiusKlein
@Brachiator: Humility is not the same as withdraw. To me, it’s the opposite of Hubris. Humility is a worthwhile quality
Brachiator
@MobiusKlein: This is phony humility, often meant to serve religion. There ain’t no gods. Only us. We may never know everything, but seeking knowledge is among the best that we can do.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
Great piece, Tom.
It sounds like the IFA gets substantial input from community representatives now. That’s good. But obviously there is still conflict that needs to be resolved.
Ultimately, the scientists and managers have to have the support of the local community. It doesn’t matter if the community is “wrong” or acting like Luddites, or being unreasonable. There are more of them than there are astronomers and it’s their land. Just as government needs the consent of the governed, researchers need the consent of stakeholders (funding agencies, local people, the scientific community, etc.) as well.
Here’s hoping that an improved arrangement can be found.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
Keith P.
What if we sent Bradley Cooper to Hawaii to romance one of their native peoples (or a
reasonableapproximation) so that we can get their blessing to build on the sacred site?rikyrah
good reading. good job.
Linkmeister
As somebody who lives on Oahu, lemme tell you that the TMT construction argument has gotten entirely overtaken by a nascent and highly-fragmented Hawaiian sovereignty movement. There were seven long years of planning for this telescope and the Office of Hawaiian Affairs signed off on it a year or two ago (and has now recanted, brave souls that they are). There is a four-person Hawaiian oversight committee for the use of Mauna Kea which also agreed to the construction.
The sovereignty movement (which has at least four factions which each want different things — from “all you Westerners go home” to “nation within a nation” to “co-government with the state” and some other things I’ve forgotten) is vocal but fairly small. Because of their use of social media, they’ve managed to persuade many people that their movement is much larger than it is.
The Governor is relatively new to his job and is, I think, feeling his way through this. The self-styled “protectors” of Mauna Kea have set up several different GoFundMe and other accounts to pay for their bail (and if those funds are oversubscribed, free money!).
It’s complex, but at some point the scientists are going to win. Some other shiny thing will come along to distract the nitwits.
Marc
There are perhaps three or four sites in the world with the infrastructure to support large telescopes. It matter that Hawaii alone is close to the equator (permitting most of the sky to be seen.) Losing this site would mean that the telescope would not be built, period. Since the other large telescopes are in the south, it would also mean that the next generation of discoveries would be completely blind to the northern hemisphere (the other large scopes are being built in the south).
When you add in the fact that this is one of many, on a site with a long history of telescopes, this really isn’t a close call at all. Every tall mountain peak somewhere is some sort of special place to someone.
(Added: for those not familiar with this, there are specialized things that you need to have to keep a large telescope running. You need facilities to maintain instruments; you need access and roads; you need to recoat the mirrors; and so on. That’s why astronomers put a number of telescopes in one place. Add in the metrics for good locations and the number of reasonable sites is actually very small.)
Betty
I think you made a good case for people being able to find a resolution once they can show each other mutual respect, Tom.
SiubhanDuinne
Thank you, Tom. A very interesting (naturally), thoughtful (of course), and beautifully-written (as always) essay.
cahuenga
Given the history of Hawaii and especially the Big Island I’m shocked these issues weren’t addressed in the original site analysis.
Kropadope
@c u n d gulag:
While this is true, a huge part of the issue is that there are already 13 other such telescopes up there. The natives have been perfectly happy to share the space so far, but it must now seem like the telescopes are taking over.
They’re building newer, better telescopes. Perhaps it’s time to retire the older facilities. That’s why I think the Governor’s compromise fits the situation perfectly.
raven
@Linkmeister: When I went deep sea fishing out of Maui the captain of our boat was the only native doing charters. He did 9 years in the Marines and I asked him about the sovereignty movement . He said, “I’ve been to some of those meetings. Those guys all want to be King. If they ever get sovereignty they’ll never work another day in their life”! He was funny as hell.
srv
Would that science had sacred places that indigenous peoples could use for exploring their faith
Baud
@Linkmeister:
It seems as if we are seeing similar movements the world over. The world is changing rapidly and getting smaller, and people who can’t cope with change are seeking comfort in some notion of sovereign kinship.
trollhattan
Sounds to me as though Big Aloha has hijacked the War on Christmas for their own nefarious purposes. At least that’s what I expect Fox to tell me at some point.
grondo
Seems to me that the Westward settlers of this country had deeply-held religious beliefs as to who had the superior claim to the land they were settling. One can always come up with a religious, ooga-booga justification for whatever they want to do. Basing land-use decisions on this kind of ooga-booga religious crap is just a recipe for more conflict. Maybe now, maybe later after everyone else has stopped paying attention. But it’ll ultimately be settled either by majority-rule (whites always win that) or by rational consideration of the relative merits of each case (scientific discovery vs. religious ooga-booga). Which method would you prefer?
EZSmirkzz
Just sayin’,
It’s not about science or religion, it’s about respect for the right of other people to hold different opinions, and values, without ascribing the worst of the religious and Rationalist rants of outrage to the collective whole.
To claim that all of this is all about and only all about religion and science is croaking like the people you apparently disdain in an apparent exhibit of confirmation bias. It seems to me to be a rather binary interpretation of all things human, and disrespectful.
I could be wrong of course. Some people seem to live to impersonate conservative douche bags and aggravate my ass. I am getting old after all.
Edited to add, also too, poetic.
the Conster
OT, but Twitter is hilarious following the Rand Paul/McConnell kerfuffle. Republicans are in complete disarray over the Patriot Act. Clown.Show.
J R in WV
@cahuenga:
Judging from what @Linkmeister: said, all this was addressed before the first shovel turned dirt. This is a group of people trying to gain attention and power (and maybe money!) over and above the designated folks with power in this situation.
I actually had dinner and stayed with an astronomer who built an observatory on the summit. He acquired a domed building previously used by DoD, acquired a respectable instrument to install in the building, equipped it with computer controls, and turned the whole thing over to the University of Hawaii, Hilo, for the use of primarily students there.
Now someone wants to tear that down? That’s crazy talk! All those instruments are unique, valuable, expensive, and are the results of exhaustive work by brilliant hard working scientists. the true .01% of intellectual humanity. Tear down the governor’s mansion, or donate it to native culture, before you diminish our ability to learn.
One question I would put to the activists: How large is the summit area we are talking about? Many square miles is my uneducated guess. How large is the area to be used by the new telescope facility? A few hundred acres is another good guess. What proportion of the summit area would be used up? how does that compare with the area already taken up?
Tom, I note that in the cultural time when natives were in control, only the elite were allowed to travel to the summit. So logically, if the native culture was still in power, none of these activists would be allowed anywhere near the site of their demonstrations! If my understanding of the power of taboo in native Polynesian culture is correct, they would have been given a small boat, a pig, and sent on their way into the great Pacific. Or perhaps just executed outright?
Perhaps someone else can provide answers about numbers of square miles/acres of telescopic sites, and shed light on the nature of taboos and the rights of elites versus the ordinary folk of the Hawaiian culture.
I for one am in favor of this construction project proceeding forthwith, as many complex issues must come to fruition for something of this difficulty and invention to succeed in a timely way. So we must agree to disagree here. If I can’t talk you into changing your mind, that is.
Amir Khalid
@grondo:
Whatever you think of the merits of the dispute, calling local beliefs about the sacredness of a site “religious ooga-booga” is dismissive and unhelpful in seeking a solution based on mutual respect between science and the community at large. Calling the greed and racism (among other sins) of those who took other people’s land and lives to expand the US “deeply-held religious beliefs” puts genuine religious convictions on a par with those sins.
Stillwater
Nice post. And an especially nice reference to Vermeer’s “The Astronomer”, not only because of the Spacy allusion, but because Vermeer quite likely used optical lenses to paint his pictures.
Bravo!
shell
Cripes, this is like, the fifth thunderstorm to blow thru here in the past two hours. And it looks like another mighty storm front coming in from Pennsylvania. My poor dog’s gonna be a damp spot on the carpert.
sharl
Excellent article, Tom. Those of us trained in the physical sciences in the early and middle parts of the Cold War era are, as a group, perhaps more susceptible to being surprised by opposition of the type you describe, especially if things had been rolling along just fine for years up to that point. I’ve even seen some manifestations of that in my more practical and routine/mundane scitech corner of the world.
Social media has certainly enabled coordination of both grassroots opposition efforts (e.g., anti-vaxxers) and semi-secretly industrially funded astroturfing efforts (e.g., atmospheric global warming denialism). But I think there is a more general atmosphere of public skepticism these days – not necessarily a bad thing! – that we scientists and technologists need to address in ways we didn’t have to before the previous decade.
@Linkmeister: Does Prof. Haunani-Kay Trask have a wide following in Hawaii, or does she just get occasional media attention as a curiosity? I forget how I first learned of her (probably local alternative media), and asked about her when I was over in Honolulu on business, and my host just sort of rolled his eyes and laughed. So that – my sole data point – suggests that she and others who believe in Hawaiian independence are known in the community, but not taken seriously.
ETA: Or, kinda-sorta what Baud at #32 said…
Linkmeister
@raven: Oh yeah. I don’t want to get started on those people, or at least on one 35-year resident’s view of those people, but your charter captain was right. Each faction has a preferred person/ruling body and is convinced that if only it was in charge the American money tree would continue to put forth its leaves, but the leaves would all fall into its pockets.
the Conster
@the Conster:
In the middle of McConnell’s very serious scolding of Rand, Pat Robert’s phone goes off with the ring tone of Frozen’s Let It Go. CLOWN.SHOW.
ETA: surveillance program to lapse at midnight.
Linkmeister
@sharl: She’s got her followers. She’s certainly a loud voice (her sister Mililani has quieted down now, but for a while they were both at the forefront of the sovereignty charge). She managed to infuriate me because of her ability to disregard the fact that she had been doing her work with the support of Federal grants and her state salary for teaching all the while railing bitterly that all the haoles should get out of Hawai’i.
“Um, lady, whose money are you living on,” I’d want to ask her. “Us taxpayers, right? So whatchu gonna do if your fondest wish comes true?”
J R in WV
@srv:
We do asshole!! They’re called observatories, and universities, and libraries!
I so get tired of your deliberate ignorance! Had any good tetanus vaccinations lately? Because tetanus is one hell of a disease to die from, and you will without the vaccinations.
Baud
@the Conster:
One is those senators in not representing the will of Kentucky voters.
Gin & Tonic
To those who noted my comment in an earlier thread, my daughter has gone from 3.5 cm to 5 cm dilated in the last ~10-11 hours. Things are progressing very slowly indeed.
Baud
@Gin & Tonic:
Your daughter needs to give the kid a really horrible name as payback.
Bill D.
@Linkmeister: A person in her position could reasonably assert that she’s using the oppressor’s tools against them and that if her sovereignty goals are achieved then reparations are still in order. If those fall through then she could change to a different line of work, but she could still argue that her previous work did some good for her cause.
Without claiming that I understand her position, just from a strategic standpoint her approach makes sense. I don’t see it as hypocritical. As a marginalized group with no power, you don’t go into battle with the weapons you wish you had, but with the ones you can actually reasonably obtain.
Linkmeister
@Bill D.: She could assert that to her followers and get nods of agreement, perhaps. To an outsider it looks suspiciously like biting the hand that feeds you.
SiubhanDuinne
@Gin & Tonic:
May all go well for her and for her child.
the Conster
@Baud:
One of those Senators will never raise another dime of money from either the RNC or RNSC. Apparently the gallery was full of freedom loving white guys wearing Stand With Rand red t-shirts. Maybe they can pool their allowances to help him compete with JEB!
Suzanne
@Gin & Tonic: Get her an epidural.
I’m all for sensitivity to all cultures, but FFS. This isn’t destructive. This isn’t going to ruin the environment on the mountain. This isn’t for profit. Build the damn thing.
BBA
@Baud: I’d imagine the will of Kentucky voters is to renew the Patriot Act effective January 21, 2017. This is a sensible compromise that all Republicans and Joe Manchin can agree to. Bipartisanism!
kindness
While we can understand both sides of the issue the extension of this issue is more important. Does this mean that the religious component of Hawaiian nationalism feels no more telescopes can be built on Hawaiian mountain tops? I mean really it isn’t just this one. It’s all the next generation ones. Are we saying no more? That’d be a bit too much for me to be comfortable with. At that point it isn’t respect for old traditions and culture any more. It’s conservatism/ludditeism.
JGabriel
Just read the Boston Globe piece.
Excellent essay, Tom. I find myself in complete agreement.
David Koch
either Turtle is a bigger idiot than I could imagine or he cut a deal last year with Baby Doc for his endorsement in return for allowing the patriot act to expire for one day, allowing Baby Doc to grandstand and to claim “success”.
Tommy
I got rid of cable more than a year ago. Long story but I can’t stand my cable company. I got Sling two months ago because I couldn’t live without ESPN. Sling also has CNN. I made the mistake of turning it on today. Seems like just watching it the world is doing to end because of the Patriot Act.
I left it on for the better part of four hours waiting for a liberal to appear. Not a single person they had on thought the Patriot Act was a bad idea. They keep bringing on these individuals telling me they are experts. So there is no expert they can find that doesn’t like the Patriot Act?
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
Thank you for the excellent essay, Tom.
@Amir Khalid:
I don’t disagree with your premise. But I suspect that to those who took other people’s land and lives to expand the US their greed and racism was quite supported by their “deeply-held religious beliefs.” Those folks truly believed that their g*d picked them to shoo the g*dless savages off the land – by whatever means necessary – that their g*d intended for the g*dly ones to have and to rule.
We watched “A Good Day to Die” last night. Some of those points were made vividly. I think the last time I got to see Dennis Banks* was at the local screening of “Incident at Oglalla,” with proceeds going to the Free Leonard Peltier Fund. I plan to make M.Q watch that as well.
**He is one of my heroes, whom I got to meet when he lived in the area; he’s since returned to Minnesota.
Tom Levenson
@kindness: Note the governor’s proposal: take out obsolete instruments, build the TMT. Not my call, but that makes a great deal of sense to me.
Thanks to all who’ve commented.
Mandalay
@David Koch: Grassley and McCain try to stop Rand Paul even speaking! While Grassley is rebooting his nine brain cells Rand Paul uses him as a floor mop.
Paul is now in honey badger mode – he doesn’t give a shit. He’s going after fellow Republicans, and President Obama, and is making himself completely toxic to the billionaires.
But the crazy fucker does have a point. It’s more than sad that he and Bernie are now virtually the only prominent politicians with the nerve to put their cocks on the block over NSA overreach.
Baud
OT. Interesting WaPo article about cybersecurity.
Gin & Tonic
@Suzanne: Thanks for the advice, but she is her own woman, and wanted to avoid as much intervention as possible. But the epidural was hours ago anyway. As I mentioned this morning, she gave her mother quite a hard time emerging, so this may be karma.
Cliff in NH
Fuck religion.
Prove your sky god before I will respect it.
ps. Or any other god. Prove it.
Doug Wieboldt
Great writing Tom, and a fascination subject! Thank you!
Cliff in NH
@Mandalay:
um, do I agree with a ‘paul’? wow.
Go Bernie! (sp)
kindness
@Tom Levenson: And I appreciate the governor. It’s a good door. But still, the definition of what is to remain untouched (as in you can’t build something on it) will need to be specified. No more seems extreme to me.
satby
@Gin & Tonic: We’re all waiting to hear too! Some babies and moms just are on a slower schedule, as long as everything else is fine I’m glad they’re not rushing her into a Cesarean just for a slower labor.
Gin & Tonic
@Cliff in NH: Ever read Aquinas?
Cliff in NH
@Gin & Tonic:
explain.
Baud
@Cliff in NH:
You quoted Aquinas verbatim, I think.
Cliff in NH
I would love to hear a defense of the policy of requiring logins for cspan, a public broadcast..
Cliff in NH
@Baud:
link it.
Cliff in NH
@Gin & Tonic:
no.
MobiusKlein
@Cliff in NH: Perhaps you should respect the person, who is there and has real feelings – regardless of the existence of the sky father.
For example, one of my co-workers always says grace before he eats lunch. I wait until he’s done before I start eating. Not because I think praying works, but because holding on 20 seconds is an easy decency I can show my fellow man.
Baud
@Cliff in NH:
Can’t. Aquinas wrote before the Internet.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cliff in NH: You’re rather demanding this evening.
Cliff in NH
fuck you omnes.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cliff in NH:I don’t really think you are my type.
Gin & Tonic
@Cliff in NH: I am far from an expert, but St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologiae, which he spent the last ten years of his life writing (and not completing) concerns itself in part with this question. He felt that the existence of God was provable, and that he had proven it. While I have other things on my mind tonight and won’t be engaging in lengthy theological discussions, I find simple “prove it” statements like yours, excuse me, lacking in rigor if the one making the statement has not spent some time familiarizing him/herself with the extensive and ancient literature on precisely this topic.
JPL
@Tom Levenson: The comments, although few, were quite good. I do think that it’s important to discuss how to achieve goals without denigrating the other side.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@JPL:
This. When the conflict is between people whose ancestors had their land stolen from them and forcibly annexed to the US and the government of the US, I’m not sure why some people think the best solution is to say, “Fuck you, godbotherers, we do what we want.”
Bill D.
@Linkmeister: If you believe that hand is evil, then why not? Would you do the same thing conceptually, if taking money from the ruling bad guys (without becoming trapped by doing so) gave you a better platform to work against their dominance?
NotMax
For those who might be interested, a discussion of the proposed telescope on a radio show done by some friends from earlier in the month is here.
The problem with removing some existing telescopes is that they all don’t do the same thing. Some are used for nighttime observations, others do solar study. Here on Maui, we have one primarily dedicated to tracking the thousands of bits of debris in orbit resulting from space missions.
Any that may be deemed “obsolete” can almost surely be repurposed (even if no longer optimum for professional use, made available to student projects via the internet, something done periodically with the big – and in demand – ‘scope atop Maui’s tallest point) getting the maximum bang for the buck of what was an expensive installation.
Steeplejack
@Baud:
It sounded better in the original Latin.
NotMax
If someone could de-moderate my comment, would be appreciated.
Cliff in NH
@Omnes Omnibus:
Fuck you scumbag.
mjs
@debbie: “Can’t expect to get anywhere when you’re only looking backward.” Telescopes reveal stars that vanished millions of years ago–the light reaches us and history is observed. So, you can “get anywhere” by looking backward. You can also back out of the driveway, which is useful sometimes.
Linkmeister
@Bill D.: Oh, sure, but I’d recognize that I was gonna get tarred with the “hypocrite!” brush by the people who paid my salary. Then I’d decide whether I wanted to continue down that road in that way.
Valdivia
I can’t believe I went away for a couple of hours and missed out on the Aquinas discussion.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cliff in NH: I’ve already declined your offer. Now you’re just embarrassing yourself. I’m not interested. Really.
Gin & Tonic
@Valdivia: Wasn’t much of a discussion.
Valdivia
@Gin & Tonic:
You are right, but how often does Aquinas even get mentioned on a blog thread? I appreciated your contribution.
Eljai
Fantastic article, Tom! I’m going to have to go back and re-read it so I can savor it a bit more. It’s beautifully written, informative and compassionate, as well.
Brachiator
@Baud:
Hey, that’s no reason to insult the people of Scotland.
Brachiator
@Gin & Tonic: Which god? And why should I care? “Proofs” of god don’t resolve the problem of religion, Aquinas notwithstanding. And I have no idea why anyone would invoke Aquinas to defend Hawaiian deities.
Omnes Omnibus
@Brachiator: Try following the entire conversation back to the beginning. It might make more sense.
J R in WV
@BBA:
How did you get to know so much about Joe Manchin? Did you know that he was a crackerjack carpet salesman for the family carpet business?
Until it came out that he had borrowed hundreds of thousands of dollars from other family members to keep the carpet store afloat, and they had to sue to get anything back from Unca Joe!
I have heard rumors from friends in law enforcement (long retired now) that Joe is connected with the boys who run Pittsburgh. And that’s how he won most of northern WV. And so won his offices. But that’s just a rumor, I don’t know that for a fact.
Marc
The idea that the older telescopes are “obsolete” is misappplying physics logic to astronomy. In physics a new accelerator is simply better than an old one; you might as well shut it down. But optics gives you all sorts of trade-offs. For example, a smaller telescope has a larger field of view. Astronomers are now investing heavily in taking movies of the sky – that’s where the Kepler planets came from – and this includes large ground-based efforts. If we need continuous coverage in time, Hawaii is almost unique – there isn’t a lot of land in the Pacific to base telescopes on, and it really compromises your ability to search for supernovae, planets, and other transient sources. in short, the other telescopes on the mountain are *not* obsolete in any way, shape, or form. They simply do different science, and never being able to build on Hawaii again would do a lot of harm.
Tom – this is an important point, by the way, and it is not the case that this is a harmless sop to throw to a bunch of people who will never be satisfied with this in any case.
This isn’t the first time that a group of traditionalists have attempted to leverage political goals with religious claims. And there really is a bad faith component here – things get decided and agreed upon, then the radicals hit the reset button and then it starts all over again. Given that this has happened repeatedly in Hawaii and Arizona, the irritation that the astronomer have about this has some actual merit. And if you dig a bit deeper, these groups frequently have deeply reactionary agendas that go with their fundamentalism; tolerance is just about the last thing on their agenda.
Diana
@MobiusKlein: um, sorry, the “real feelings” is exactly what I don’t respect. You can feel like them dirty black folks shouldn’t be eating in your nice clean restaurant in your nice white town. You can feel like your female employees should not be having non-procreative sex. You can feel good in church when your pastor tells you not to worry about greenhouse gases because God gave man dominion over the earth.
You can feel any damn thing you want.
I respect reason and logic, sapere aude.
Tom, thanks for the link, but I still think these people know perfectly well they are targeting educated, sensitive people who will not laugh them off no matter how much their claim that they have a right to go up on the mountain is actually violating their own tradition of royals only.
But I think Brachiator wins the thread with his comment re Scotland….
Tom Levenson
@Marc: Yes, older telescopes move on to other functions. These do not, typically, require the “perfect” (or nearly so) conditions of Mauna Kea, where summit real estate is in fact a constrained resource. The UH 2.2 meter remains a great educational scope; it’s not a cutting edge instrument and its functions can be replicated in other places. The Caltech Submillimeter Observatory is already scheduled for the chop. UKIRT is hanging on by the skin of its teeth (new management). I believe a couple of 24″ scopes used by UH purely as student instruments have already been pulled out. Some of the other instruments there are useful, but not essential — nothing like the significance of Keck, Gemini and Subaru. (I’ve spent a lot of time at Mauna Kea, as you probably can tell, and have filmed inside five of the observatories there.)
Edited to add: There are as you say few great Pacific sites for northern hemisphere scopes. But for the kinds of survey telescopes you mention there are places other than Mauna Kea that will work. If you want to build more on that one mountain top, then I think the physics logic may apply: the best and uniquely constrained location should be reserved for the best instruments, and those whose functions can be performed elsewhere may have to go to free up not just space but the rest of the infrastructure needed for the largest and latest facilities.
Agreed on the moving target — the toughest part of this is that TMT has every permit. There has been a long running law suit, though, so it’s not as if opponents just started after this.
My point really wasn’t that TMT shouldn’t or won’t be built. I expect it will — its legal position is strong, and as others in this thread have noted, native Hawaiian’s are far from monolithic on this and other issues. It is that the reflexive science-trumps-all card is one that shouldn’t be played, for lots of reasons, not least that it turns opponents into enemies. Which is exactly what a cultural institution like modern astronomy can ill afford.
Tom Levenson
@Marc: Lastly: your logic taken to the extreme suggests that there should be no bar on telescope construction atop Mauna Kea. I don’t think that’s a sustainable position. If it’s not we’re arguing about when you reach the point where you have to make choices, not whether choices need to be made.
Brachiator
@Omnes Omnibus: I did, and it doesn’t.
Omnes Omnibus
@Brachiator: Okay, then. A statement of prove God exists followed by a reference to Aquinas’s alleged proofs is not pretty damned clear. One may disagree with Aquinas, but one can’t say he didn’t offer proofs.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus: isn’t that what the whole point of Summa Theologiae? Proofs I mean?
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: Well, yeah. I say argue with what he said, but he did make a case. Brachiator seems to be waving that away.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Diana:
I guess the important thing to me here is, is this primarily a religious argument where the “no” side is arguing strictly on the basis of their religious beliefs, or is there also an ongoing cultural and/or ethnic conflict about how native peoples have been treated?
In this case, it’s pretty clear that the underlying conflict is the ethnic and minority rights one, and religion is being dragged in as an additional reason why the haole scientists shouldn’t get to have everything their own way. I agree that religion shouldn’t be allowed to be a trump card, but when the ethnic and minority rights arguments get handwaved away in a situation like this, what’s left? Is it A-OK for us to trample minority rights as long as we tell ourselves they’re “just” religious rights so it’s okay to trample them?
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus: Right, another hard slog for me, Aquinas. But the man came up with the Quinque Viae, which I vaguely remember (and also too, The City of Man by Augustine, but that is a whole different kettle of fish)
Gus diZerega
@Kropadope: I agree. We are not discussing an untouched place, but it is place where native Hawaiians, at least more traditional ones, find important in their own history and beliefs. That from here on one be taken down when another is added seems a reasonable recognition of the legitimate interests of both groups.
Before someone whines about primitive beliefs, the islands were essentially seized and the native people treated very badly for decades afterward their population collapsed. Their land was stolen. The right to some recompense does not imply that those who are to some degree compensated for past wrongs must then use their land in ways we approve of.
I think the essay was extremely well written and even more impressive, well balanced in its treatment of the conflict.
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: Let’s just not go into Augustine. Please?
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus: I promise. Hey I am a fallen-jewish girl, not exactly favorite territory for me :)
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
There are a lot of people here who don’t seem to realize that a liberal society must be based upon respect and toleration for other people’s beliefs, even if you don’t agree with them. That doesn’t mean that you have to, or should, let others run you over with their beliefs, but you have to engage with them on a basis that they all have a right to the public space to make their arguments no matter how they arrive at them and come to a resolution through pluralistic means.
Otherwise, you’re just arguing that power is all that matters in determining outcomes. Aside from the ethical problems with that, a lot of the most strident folks in this thread will end up the losers if that’s the way they want the game to be played.
Brachiator
@Omnes Omnibus: It’s not a matter of simply disagreeing with Aquinas. This stuff is part of an old, tired, irrelevant philosophical and religious tradition that at best is of interest to some religious people. But it doesn’t prove anything. And the entire notion that some Deity is a shy magician who requires that we must approach him or her or it indirectly through proofs is as ridiculous as creationism. It’s like someone suggesting that I should regard some medieval alchemist’s text with credence just because someone put a lot of intellectual effort into it.
dmbeaster
Since the goals of science are entirely met by retiring older facilities (and thereby limiting the overall footprint of facilities up there), this seems to be the solution. It does not matter that the opposition includes elements of nutty separatist movements, nor that the opposition is also religiously motivated. Its a reasonable solution among competing users, and the science is not harmed.
Paul in KY
@J R in WV: The activists all think they will be part of the elite.
low-tech cyclist
1. Tom, I’m sorry, but after reading your piece, I’m not sure of your point.
2. I’d like to hear from the astronomers just why it’s unreasonable for them to take down a few of their existing telescopes to make way for the TMT. It sure sounds like the gains in knowledge from the TMT will far exceed what the existing telescopes can produce.
Sometimes you have to give up something to gain something, and ISTM like the gains to astronomy from such a deal would be much bigger than what they’re being asked to give up.
Paul in KY
@Brachiator: Methinks Thomas Aquinas knew what generally happened in those times to people who proved that God did not exist.
Paul in KY
I sure want this telescope to be built. If they need to remove a few of the oldest & most obsolete ones to get it done, then do it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Brachiator: Dear fucking god. It was never a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. It was always a matter of understanding why the reference was made.