Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Disappointing to see gov. newsom with his finger to the wind.

I really should read my own blog.

I’m more christian than these people and i’m an atheist.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

Sometimes the world just tells you your cat is here.

When they say they are pro-life, they do not mean yours.

Republicans: slavery is when you own me. freedom is when I own you.

Today’s gop: why go just far enough when too far is right there?

“I was told there would be no fact checking.”

Many life forms that would benefit from greater intelligence, sadly, do not have it.

Motto for the House: Flip 5 and lose none.

People really shouldn’t expect the government to help after they watched the GOP drown it in a bathtub.

And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

If you are still in the gop, you are either an extremist yourself, or in bed with those who are.

If you tweet it in all caps, that makes it true!

Shut up, hissy kitty!

Dumb motherfuckers cannot understand a consequence that most 4 year olds have fully sorted out.

Dear elected officials: Trump is temporary, dishonor is forever.

No one could have predicted…

People are complicated. Love is not.

Everything is totally normal and fine!!!

Every decision we make has lots of baggage with it, known or unknown.

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117Comments

  1. 1.

    Germy Shoemangler

    From HRC’s post-launch interview

    “I will have to do a better job of explaining my record” on Wall Street.

    Clinton admitted that her record as Senator of New York will need to be clarified and promised to outline specific Wall Street reforms “that will address the continuing risks” from Wall Street banks to reassure skeptics.

    About those haters

    The former first lady, senator, and secretary of state laughed off her legions of haters, saying, “I think that a lot the political heat that is directed at me is kind of a strange form of respect and even flattery, you know, because if they weren’t so concerned about me they’d leave me alone but they get up everyday worried that the case I’m making will break through and the facts that I am making the case based on will be understood by enough people that we not only will have a successful campaign but an agenda on which to govern.”

  3. 3.

    ant

    Over at RedState, they have a post with the name “George W Bush patiently explains the facts of life and war to his successor.”

    In it, they highlight Dubyas statement about how to defeat ISIS:

    “My position [is] that you need to have boots on the ground,”

    The analysis of this statement goes like this:

    Certainly it was a prerequisite to George W Bush’s successful prosecution of the GWOT; and anyone taking umbrage at the suggestion that GWB won that war should contemplate that under Bush, Iraq went from torture rooms to election halls. Under Barack Obama Iraq went from election halls to slave auctions and sacrificial altars.

    So, Bush won the war on terra by ending torture in Iraq.

    Those people are weird over there.

  4. 4.

    Germy Shoemangler

    I mentioned in an earlier thread that today I saw Charlie Pierce link to balloon-juice in his article about HRC’s launch speech.

  6. 6.

    fuckwit

    @Germy Shoemangler: Doesn’t have Obama’s (or even her husband’s) gift of oratory or explication. Is worlds more intelligent than anyone running on the R side now, or indeed anyone who has actually served as president on the R side for the last 100 years. I still love me some Bernie but if she wins– and has enough coattails to flip the House and Senate– I think we’re all gonna make it.

  7. 7.

    Villago Delenda Est

    The GOP: all Lannisters and Baratheons, all the time. Not a Stark in sight.

  8. 8.

    Hilfy

    Don’t expect Jon Snow to remain dead. Melisandre raised up Dondarian and Lady Stoneheart. And she had ridden into Castle Black just before the disgruntled men murdered Jon Snow.
    Why would she be there if not to bring the plot forward?
    Someone must stay alive to ride that third dragon. Dany, Tyrion and….?

  9. 9.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @ant: Actually, Iraq went from torture rooms….to torture rooms.

    The deserting coward and the Dark Lord, and all their advisers, need the sort of treatment we handed out to Nazis at Nürnberg.

  10. 10.

    Seanly

    Don’t have HBO so I don’t watch the show, but it sounds hideous. The over reliance on rape as a plot device would’ve driven me away long ago. I gave up on the books in the middle of the 3rd one. However, that wasn’t the longest it took me to give up on a terrible series – I spent too much time reading the never-ending Wheel of Time garbage.

  11. 11.

    Fair Economist

    @fuckwit: Whether Hillary or Bernie gets elected will make almost no difference in terms of what policies get implemented. The limit on policies will come from the House. Even in the best possible House election outcome the median House member will be far, far to the right of either.

  13. 13.

    jl

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    ” Actually, Iraq went from torture rooms….to torture rooms.”

    That was my thought exactly. One gang’s torture rooms to another gang’s torture rooms.
    Except I think the term was ‘rape rooms’, and I read that we set up replacements for those too.

  15. 15.

    David Hunt

    If only George R.R. Martin were in charge of the RNC…

    Martin would refuse to write villains that were that maliciously evil.

  16. 16.

    fuckwit

    @Fair Economist: Agreed. It’s been a huge point of frustration for me that so few voters actually understand that. You don’t get your legislative agenda without legislators. Congress makes the laws, not presidents, and we’ve got to get that House back AND a supermajority in the Senate in order to have any kind of progress or improvement in our lives. And let’s not forget states too. The only short-term hope is for 2016 to be a movement election that does all of those things.

  18. 18.

    ant

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    torture rooms….to torture rooms

    My thinking went along the same lines.

    I didn’t make far enough along in the comment section to see if the words “abu ghraib” came up, but just the notion that the GWOT was won, in Iraq, of all places makes it hard for me to even deal with the torture issue, and what that means for winning the GWOT.

    By the way, what does the “G” stand for in GWOT?

    Like I said those people are weird over there.

  19. 19.

    Germy Shoemangler

    @muddy: He does? I didn’t see his name in the author list.

    @fuckwit: I love Bernie. I like that I’m seeing him on the morning talk shows. I like what I’m hearing from HRC. The GOP side sounds so breathtakingly absurd to me; it’s bizarre to see them taken seriously by tv and radio journalists. It’s like if my cat announced a run for the white house, and all the villagers’ interviews were “who’s a good girl?? You’re a good girl!”

  21. 21.

    MomSense

    Oh FFS Diane Rehm show. I don’t even know who the “experts” are but one of them just compared Jeb! to Edward Kennedy saying they were both great on policy but not great politicians. Great on policy? Jeb!? The other “expert” said that Teddy was actually a great politician and gave some of the best modern political speeches and that Jeb! isn’t a great politician like his brother?! What?

  24. 24.

    Germy Shoemangler

    @fuckwit:

    …we’ve got to get that House back AND a supermajority in the Senate in order to have any kind of progress or improvement in our lives.

    I know that Obama’s election inspired many GOP idiots to say “if that one can be president, well then I sure as hell can!”

    But I also hope Obama’s election inspired some smart young people on our side to make a go for it.
    Local, state, house, senate…

  26. 26.

    Booger

    @MomSense: Someone needs to burn their goddam rolodex to the ground. Same stable of Village-approved talking heads all the time.

  27. 27.

    lamh36

    @Hilfy: saw an EW article that said it’s the actors undestanding that “dead is dead”..

    so Jon Snow fans maybe have to deal…

  28. 28.

    NotMax

    Repeating just because it caught my eye. (Picture not taken by me, I don’t own a camera of any sort.)

    This is perhaps the most blunt shop name ever.

    It’s a real thing – not a joke, not a Photoshop. Passed by it on Saturday, as a matter of fact, while shuttling a friend who lives way out in the boonies into town so he could buy a new car battery.

  32. 32.

    jl

    @Germy Shoemangler: Thanks for link to Pierce post on HRC speech. I think Pierce did a good capsule analysis of the event, including one thing I could not articulate in my head: lack of triangulation or hedging. To some extent, the lack of triangulation was replaced by dead silence on some issues where HRC would like to triangulate the heck out of things. So on those fronts we will have to see what develops.

    I read the Daily Beast write-up link to see what horrible totalitarian things HRC did to make the press so miserable. But it was just a string of mean insults about Roosevelt Island. Worst thing in the link was that the reporter found the event ‘pleasant and creepy’, which is strange, since I thought in corporate and conservative media circles, that phrase would usually be a compliment.

    And, boy, can’t wait for Christie to get out campaigning more. What sneering bullying insulting lout. I think he’ll make a great addition to the GOP line-up. Would be a great front for the GOP. At least he gets a point or two for honesty about how those people really think.

  33. 33.

    max

    @ant:

    In it, they highlight Dubyas statement about how to defeat ISIS:

    “My position [is] that you need to have boots on the ground,”

    Ya know, the entire point of TEH SURGE! was to get the fuck out of Anbar province. I have no idea why anybody thinks sending Marines back to Falleujah or Ramadi is going to be anything but a replay of 2005’s biggest clusterfucks.

    max
    [‘But then, Wall Street is unhappy that fiance is slightly more regulated than it was in 2007, so there’s that…’]

  35. 35.

    chopper

    lol, it’s like the old gag about how george r.r. martin can’t be allowed on twitter because he’d kill all 140 characters.

  36. 36.

    ant

    With regard to ah, you know, characters in GM’s Game Of Thrones, I will admit to falling behind in watching the series.

    We still don’t know what happens with know nothing Jon Snow in the books, and I’m patiently waiting for the next installment.

    I remember devouring the first three books, and then waiting like 6-9 months for Feast for Crows to come out. Dance with dragons was half written already at that point according to the forward in Feast, but it still took like 10 years for it to be released. So according to that timeline, we’ve only got what, another 12 years to wait for the next book.

    Ive got plenty of time to get caught up with the TV series I figure.

  38. 38.

    catclub

    @ant:

    Certainly it was a prerequisite to George W Bush’s successful prosecution of the GWOT;

    Success apparently did not require getting Osama Bin Laden. Good to know.

    But they will tell us that all the hard work getting him WAS done by Bush. Yeah, right.

  39. 39.

    shawn

    @Keith G: agreed, the show does not over rely on anything other than getting you to like a guy/gal and then taking them away from you

  41. 41.

    ant

    @Pogonip:

    Global

    Ah, thanks.

    I was saying “Grand”, or “Great”, in my mind whilst reading that.

    So, we need “boots on the ground” everywhere there is terra. Got it.

  42. 42.

    jl

    @max: IIRC only half the Surge was paying off Anbar leaders so we would have effective partners interested in using our help in controlling the area, so we could get out. The other half was putting more troops into Baghdad in order to put a lid on the violence while the brutal ethnic partition of the city was executed.

    So, now that the Anbar Sunnis have been burned badly, and left to rot by US and the US sponsored Iraqi government, what pay-off will they accept from us to play ball?

    I wonder if Dub ever understood at all what his Surge really was.
    But the word sounds very decisive and strong leadererring, so so everyone (edit, well, every politician who wants to follow Dub’s recipes for success) wants another one, whatever it was. Surely it would work again! ‘Cause it had strength and ‘BOOTS ON THE GROUND’!

  43. 43.

    KG

    @Hilfy: Thoros raised Dondarian, and Dondarian raised Lady Stoneheart. The Red Witch hasn’t shown that she has the power to do that. But it’s highly unlikely Jon is dead.

  45. 45.

    jl

    What kind of full service blog is this, anyway?
    Big glossy, high quality production values Jeb! announcement Event going on right now.

    Folksy Hispanic chick group singing.

    Where’s the live blog? Huh, Cole?

    Edit: not sure what kind of band it is. I thought it was Hispanic since they were singing something in Spanish when I clicked in. Now they are butchering a Bee Gees’ tune.

  47. 47.

    KG

    @lamh36: they raised the spectre of L+R=J when Littlefinger gave Sansa a bit more context for why Rhaegar “stole” Lyanna. I can’t imagine they’d drop that bit in the show and then kill off Jon without resolving it… but who knows, they’ve taken quite a bit of liberty with the storylines this last season (and fucked up the entire Dorne angle in the process)

  48. 48.

    catclub

    @jl:

    So, now that the Anbar Sunnis have been burned badly, and left to rot by US and the US sponsored Iraqi government, what pay-off will they accept from us to play ball?

    One last hug from returning US forces, so ISIS can identify any remaining survivors of those who have previously cooperated with the US, and mark them for death.

    Juan Cole had a nice article about the 350-450 new advisors. Enough for Obama to say he is doing something, while doing as little as possible.
    http://www.juancole.com/2015/06/increase-training-uninterested.html

  49. 49.

    srv

    All the reasons why you people need to get onboard with Jim Webb:

    He was Elizabeth Warren before it was cool.

    He can broaden his party’s appeal.

    He has unmatched credibility on foreign policy.

    He hates politics.

    He’s the closest to “normal” of any candidate in the race.

  50. 50.

    KG

    @Karen in GA: Dondarian didn’t have any kings’ blood, Thoros basically explained that the Red God works in mysterious ways (in the books, Thoros was mostly a drunk who was questioning his faith, IIRC). As for the Red Witch, she’s had an (moreorless) equal amount of kings’ blood to work with in the books and TV – Stannis’ blood for the smoke babies, and one of Robert’s bastards for the supposed deaths of the other pretenders/usurpers.

  53. 53.

    lamh36

    On the next job application, loan application, medical history… I have, I’ma check the “white” box. And when and if I get that interview. I”m gonna stare that interviewer right in the face and be like “what”…I feel white, so I identify as white… will it work as well for me as it did for Rachel Dolezal?

  54. 54.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Germy Shoemangler:

    Charlie actually had two Balloon Juice links today, in two separate stories. The one you cited, and this one:

    Option Two: lunatic economic cultist Sam Brownback, re-elected last fall as governor of Kansas (h/t to John Cole for finding this one).

    http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a35710/california-drought-quote/

    Unfortunately, CPP linked to the wrong BJ thread; I put up a correction in his comments but don’t know whether it’s been corrected yet, and haven’t checked. Still, it’s always a kick to see the big guys name check John and the Juice.

  55. 55.

    Ruckus

    @catclub:
    EK’s last graph –
    Right now the only arrow pointing upward for Bush is the downward trajectory of expectations. But if he doesn’t get a couple of straight weeks of good news pretty soon, an informal death watch will inevitably be formed, and then things could get desperate. I’m sure he’s not thinking about that today in the glow of finally becoming an official candidate, but it’s right there in the rear-view mirror.

    I think Ed is off a bit on the distance. It’s in the back seat and taping him on the shoulder, a lot closer than the rear-view mirror. Of course he seems dense enough that he wouldn’t hear it coming up behind him and he obviously has no idea what’s in any rear-view mirror(Iraq/his brother) so I’m thinking he won’t even get it when he gets slapped upside the head with reality.

  57. 57.

    jl

    I don’t watch Game of Thrones. So, I’ll start reading a comment about the show, and at first I think it is about the GOP primary and obscure GOP operatives and hacks I have not heard of before. It’s disconcerting.

  58. 58.

    mdblanche

    Meanwhile Europe is heading towards a crackup. It looks like June 18 will be the last chance to keep Greece in the Eurozone, and this time they mean it, probably. Not an auspicious date if you believe history rhymes. I just hope they really have solved the risk of contagion like they claimed…

  59. 59.

    Ruckus

    @lamh36:
    Interesting question. Given what I know about asshole white people (hopefully I only fit into the second half of that description), the short answer would be “Seems unlikely to be convincing”.

  60. 60.

    shawn

    @jl: that blog is already written here every day – they are not going to say anything new about Jeb or any other Repub (or Hillary for that matter) – doesn’t make them wrong, not commenting at all on the veracity just the tenacity, but it does make it super boring – luckily they throw in other posts (“post” racial America and health insurance but also GoT and dogs, etc.) – but man oh man reading this blog’s posts about Repub politics is like watching a battle scene – live blogging would be a total waste of their time – wake me up after when they get back to the good stuff

  62. 62.

    Steve in the ATL

    @srv: All the reasons not to vote for Jim Webb:

    He didn’t run for reelection after one term because it was going to be a tough fight.

  63. 63.

    Ruckus

    @Amir Khalid:
    Turning out that way suggests to me that he may have started out in a better position and has pissed that away. In my mind he was and always will be a feeble candidate. Even for an R, and that’s a very low bar to step over these days.

  64. 64.

    Amir Khalid

    @srv:
    All these reasons for supporting Webb reek of hipster posing, especially “he hates politics”. If Webb disdains politics he’s not going to be very good at a very important part of the Presidency: doing deals with 530-odd children in Congress.

  65. 65.

    jl

    @shawn:

    I was joking about the Jeb! live blog. That was a joke.

    I clicked again. Now some folksy southern lady is talking. she just said Jeb! is relentless, a theme we will hear again and again! And they are going to show a testimonial video docuspotaJeb!amentary.

  66. 66.

    redshirt

    Never has this moment happened in human history: One medium (TV) has outpaced another, original medium (the books), in telling the same story in real time.

    The show is now telling the story, with the books left behind. At this point I question if Grrm can finish the next book at all.

  68. 68.

    Lurking Canadian

    @jl: I am cautiously optimistic after this weekend’s announcement. I have been concerned all along that she’d run on some third-way bullshit about “correcting the excesses of Obama” and “regaining the vital center” and “reaching across the aisle”.

    Instead she’s come out with “Let’s keep the momentum going!” I may turn into a HillBot if she keeps on like this

  70. 70.

    Bill

    I rage quite GOT after season three, and judging by reports I’m seeing today I’m glad I did. Despite the show having tremendous production values, and good acting, It was so damn slow. It had this infuriating pattern of episode after episode with basically nothing happening (“This episode will focus entirely on a few characters climbing a wall;” “This episode will involve nothing but walking in the woods;”), followed by the killing of a major character. It was terribly frustrating. Not to mention the torture episodes were just horrible.

    The show started with war looming for control of the crown, and vague threats of some kind of foe approaching from beyond the wall. (Likely timed to arrive with “winter.”) By the end of the third season, those story lines had barely advanced at all.

    This weekend was better spent watching the new season of Orange!

  71. 71.

    max

    @jl: IIRC only half the Surge was paying off Anbar leaders so we would have effective partners interested in using our help in controlling the area, so we could get out. The other half was putting more troops into Baghdad in order to put a lid on the violence while the brutal ethnic partition of the city was executed.

    Well, yeah, excepting taking the troops out of Anbar (and the deserts north of Anbar) meant those troops could be shifted back to Baghdad and other places with actual people in them. It also meant much shorter supply lines since guys were no longer having to drive convoys of 5 ton trucks way out into the middle of fucking nowhere. (Thus fewer chances to catch an IED.)

    So, now that the Anbar Sunnis have been burned badly, and left to rot by US and the US sponsored Iraqi government, what pay-off will they accept from us to play ball?

    Well, the payoff they got at the time was getting the US out, and also giving them some money. This time they want to keep the Iraqi government out, and they’ve got that. Nothing for them now.

    I wonder if Dub ever understood at all what his Surge really was.

    I don’t think GWB or any Republican politicians ever understood the thing, they just know it was STRONG. Even though it was a retreat.

    But the word sounds very decisive and strong leadererring, so so everyone (edit, well, every politician who wants to follow Dub’s recipes for success) wants another one, whatever it was. Surely it would work again! ‘Cause it had strength and ‘BOOTS ON THE GROUND’!

    Exactly. If you’re retreating claim you’re advancing in another direction. (When the Marines did it, it was a joke. When the Kagan spewed it out it was pure spin.)

    max
    [‘And the morons bought it.’]

  72. 72.

    Xenos

    @Hilfy:

    Don’t expect Jon Snow to remain dead

    Snow swore to serve the black watch, or whatever they are called, for the rest of his life.

    So if he is resurrected, he is no longer bound to that oath, right? I have not gotten past the second book, and have not seen the series, but this is seems pretty straightforward.

    The saviour and the new king and queen will be the sole survivors of the damn story, I guess.

  73. 73.

    PurpleGirl

    @fuckwit:

    has enough coattails

    The term used by academics is ‘capacious coat tails’; i.e., FDR had capacious coat tails.

  75. 75.

    dlw32

    @PaulW:
    I agree! Libraries need all the help we can give them!

    Check on smile.amazon.com… my local library is there so everything I order on amazon they get a cut… it’s not much but it’s something…

  76. 76.

    Benw

    @Bill: in my opinion, the books have the same problem. I don’t know how the show’s seasons map onto the books, but book 1 ripped out of the gate, books 2-3 did a fine job keeping all the balls in the air but not as exciting, and book 4 started dragggggggging.

  77. 77.

    burnspbesq

    @Fair Economist:

    Whether Hillary or Bernie gets elected will make almost no difference in terms of what policies get implemented. The limit on policies will come from the House. Even in the best possible House election outcome the median House member will be far, far to the right of either.

    True enough, but no one should take that to mean that the 2016 Presidential election doesn’t matter. The actuarial tables, as they relate to the Supreme Court, ensure that the 2016 Presidential election is consequential as hell.

  78. 78.

    Gimlet

    @ant:

    But will all those boots on the ground in Anbar jeopardize the Jade Helm invasion of Texas?

  79. 79.

    burnspbesq

    @Ben Cisco:

    Actually, it was the Fourth Circuit that slapped down the North Carolina rules. The Supremes decided not to disturb that ruling.

  80. 80.

    rikyrah

    About the whining from the WHPC about the First Couple’s Party this past weekend.

    It’s the fact that the First Couple had a party for FIVE HUNDRED PEOPLE (if true), and they didn’t have a clue UNTIL IT WAS OVER.

    For me, didn’t have to be 500…coulda only been 50…and the fact that those jackals didn’t know a damn thing….that many mouths stayed shut…..

    that they DON’T have ‘ an in’ with this Administration, leaking shyt to them..

    THAT is what makes them mad.

  82. 82.

    Bill

    @Benw: I tried to read the books – got about halfway through the first one – and quit. Again, so so very slow.

  83. 83.

    rikyrah

    D*** to the left….
    D*** to the right….
    Everywhere she turned, there was Da D***

    ………………………………….

    New York Prison Worker Joyce Mitchell Was Investigated for Sexual Incident With Escapees
    June 15, 2015

    Joyce Mitchell, the prison worker accused of helping two inmates escape in upstate New York, was investigated for a prior sexual incident with escapee David Sweat, sources familiar with the investigation told NBC News.

    After the incident, which was investigated by prison officials, the other escapee, Richard Matt, charmed himself into her affection — so much that she “thought it was love,” sources said.

    District Attorney Andrew Wylie said on Friday that Mitchell was previously investigated because of a complaint that she had a relationship with Sweat, but he said there wasn’t “sufficient information” to remove her from the prison or charge her.

    In an interview with NBC News, Wylie said Mitchell was going to pick up the two escapees at the prison power plant and run away with them. He said Mitchell brought in blades, drill bits and other tools that helped the prisoners escape.

    Mitchell agreed to be the getaway driver but backed out because she still loved her husband, prosecutors said as the manhunt entered its 10th day Monday.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/new-york-prison-escape/new-york-prison-worker-backed-out-escape-plan-prosecutor-n375446

  84. 84.

    phein55

    @Fair Economist: I used to think that way, years ago when I was young.

    Since then, I’ve spent a fair amount of time working with personnel at the Secretariat level in DoD and other Federal agencies, and that reality is, who gets appointed to run Federal agencies matters, and it matters a lot.

    Voters don’t just pick a Pres and VP, they pick a host of appointees who implement policy. Even if there are good policies that the GOP can’t or won’t kill via legislation, appointees can make it next to impossible to implement.

  85. 85.

    celticdragonchick

    @Keith G:

    Uh…raperaperaperaperaperaperaperaperaperaperape… pedophilia…sadistic whipping pedophilia…torturetortuetorture…and megadeath all for the purpose of trolling the audience.

    Fuck it. I stopped watching this season and now I can laugh at the fans as they gnash their death as another of the (just about all gone) favorites gets raped, killed. or raped…killed and corpse raped (gotta have that shock value!) even though the writers completely telegraph who dies (hint…the character has something nice happen)

    The whole series is one long sadistic experiment in seeing how far you can break narrative structure and give nothing to the audience in return.

  86. 86.

    celticdragonchick

    @redshirt:

    Pretty sure everybody dies, winter and zombies win everything and we all get punked by the writers who say it is a Greek Tragedy or some preposterous bullshit.

    Actually heard (take it FWIW) that this was overheard by a number of people in a convention bar where GRR Martin had pit a few drinks under his belt and was in an angry discussion with someone else.

  87. 87.

    J R in WV

    @Seanly:

    Did you ever find any sign that there would be a plot someday?

    Cause I didn’t. Not a sign of actual plot with action to move the plot forwards, not a bit.

    Not too many characters, either! Wheel of Time passing that you could have used for something, anything! better than that dammed book series. And then he dies without any sign of how to wrap the dammed stuff up.

    And some guy I never heard of was supposed to save the day after R J died… not too likely!

  88. 88.

    Brachiator

    If it hasn’t already been said,

    Happy Magna Carta Day

    — from our friends at the NSA

  89. 89.

    shawn

    @celticdragonchick: *Spoilers in this comment* the finale did have a pretty spot on impossible to ignore visual about how women (and to a MUCH lesser extent men – though the equality trend seems to be heading not towards treating women better but treating men just as bad) are treated – the whole Shame, Shame thing was crazy – and that it happened to one of the show’s most evil people made it more powerful

    im torn on the show’s treatment of r*pe – oh to watch (and live) in a world without it, but when they kept the camera on Sansa’s face when Ramsay r*ped her I though was maybe good, in that it took r*pe from the abstract that it is to some people, to being real and happening to somebody we “know” – and also happening within marriage by the way – maybe not the worst thing

  90. 90.

    shawn

    not to say every act of violence on the show has been a noble attempt to elevate society

  91. 91.

    gelfling545

    @Seanly: You stuck it out longer than I did. I abandoned the series after the first book (and I ALWAYS finish books. I had been given a set of 5 as a gift. The first one was so uniformly dark & depressing and people familiar with the oeuvre assured me that there was no hope for anything else or of a character one could at least not hate so I abandoned it as a lost cause. I find I can’t just read about people doing horrible things or having the same happen to them; I have to care what happens to at least one of the characters. Martin’s characters all seem to be despicable.

  92. 92.

    Brachiator

    @celticdragonchick:

    The whole series is one long sadistic experiment in seeing how far you can break narrative structure and give nothing to the audience in return.

    Which is one of the reasons I love it. You have all these dopes insisting that they want characters that they can root for, or comfortably predictable story arcs, or characters that seek and get redemption.

    Then, they whine like little babies when they don’t get what they want, or characters disappoint them.

    The idea that audiences are supposed to get something in return is preposterous, even if it is understandable. It is why the amiably bland and predictable Jurassic World has grossed a megaton of money. It gives the suckers exactly what they want.

    GRRM’s stuff ain’t great literature, but those who seek out fantasy stuff generally run like hell from anything that is not easy reading anyway. But Game of Thrones ain’t total crap either. With all the death dealing and ruination, I’m still curious to see whether Martin can escape from the trap he has set for himself by pulling the rug out from under everyone. In the end, it’s still a lovely day, and we will all end up shiny and chrome.

  93. 93.

    J R in WV

    @celticdragonchick:

    So I’m reading “…raperaperaperaperaperaperaperaperaperaperape… pedophilia…sadistic whipping pedophilia…torturetortuetorture…and megadeath all for the purpose of” and thinking you have a super sekret wormhole into the Republican’s platform committee…

    Then you throw it all for a TV show! ;-) What a gas! It could be JEB!s campaign platform, more of what his little stupid brother did, right?!?!?

  94. 94.

    shawn

    @Brachiator: “Then, they whine like little babies when they don’t get what they want, or characters disappoint them.”

    I think about this a lot because I am guilty of this. Like do I celebrate that the show is kind of forcing me out of my precious little happy bubble or do I get mad when I turn to a fantasy (speaking of fiction in general, but the fantasy genre specifically) to escape and it plays like a nightmare?

  95. 95.

    shawn

    “speaking of fiction in general, but the fantasy genre specifically” should have read “speaking of fiction in general, NOT the fantasy genre specifically”

  96. 96.

    Brachiator

    @Fair Economist:

    Whether Hillary or Bernie gets elected will make almost no difference in terms of what policies get implemented. The limit on policies will come from the House. Even in the best possible House election outcome the median House member will be far, far to the right of either.

    This just means that people know what battle is up ahead. There has to be a fight for redistricting, and you have to get more Democrats into the Senate. You can’t depend on a president for everything.

    And we know what may happen with attempts to stop the government, block judicial and agency nominations. Having seen all this, the Democrats should get tougher about pushing their own policy and getting a discussion about what they want on the table.

    Obviously, this does not guarantee a win, but they have to shift the terms of the discussion so that the GOP is reacting to what the Democrats offer instead of pushing their own plans and demanding “compromise.”

  97. 97.

    burnspbesq

    @Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant):

    Still, the fact that they left it alone…

    Is a big fucking deal, and hopefully will send a message to the Fifth Circuit as it considers whether to stay its decision in the Texas case pending a petition for rehearing en banc or a petition for cert

  98. 98.

    Brachiator

    @shawn: I came late to Game of Thrones, slightly before the Red Wedding. I listened to some GOT podcasts and ran across some people who bailed early because they wanted pure fantasy with dragons and didn’t want any politics. Others kept watching, but insisted, until Red Wedding that they were supposed to get characters they could root for. Some are still holding onto this.

    I like the ruthlessness of the world Martin is presenting. And I liked the characters that he has disposed of. Many of them were more compelling than what I have seen in other fiction. I read the last two novels, but not the earlier ones, because I didn’t want to be shocked again, and I figured, correctly, that book readers would start spoiling more of the plot. The later books are not as exciting, but I do appreciate that Martin tried to show the devastating impact of games play on ordinary people.

    Now Martin has backed himself into a corner. He has to create some new characters as compelling as the ones he has destroyed. And he has to bring the story to a satisfying conclusion. Quite a high wire act, and not one that too many authors try.

    I’ve been disappointed before. Lost. The Star Wars prequels. So, I will give Martin a chance to see if he can pull it off.

  99. 99.

    shawn

    @Brachiator: I have not read the book and honestly probably won’t. They are not close to the front of the line and the line isn’t moving very fast these days (lame I know).

    I appreciate the ruthlessness too, like I get that in some hokey movies and TV I am like “Oh come on” but in this I just get depressed when somebody dies. I am one of those jokees who demands stakes in other drama but then when I get them here I am like – awww man :(.

  100. 100.

    Kropadope

    @redshirt: The show may actually be telling a different story than the books now. Not only are things different, they’re damn-near incompatible.

  101. 101.

    Uncle Cosmo

    Just FTR a coupla years back I copped a practically-virgin free trade-paper copy of GoT from The Book Thing & thought it was a sign from the Universe that I needed to read the series.

    In fact it was a sign that I needed to read the first 300 pages to discover that I gave, a la Frank Perdue, not one frying flock about any of the characters therein, which allowed me to put the massive amounts of time & effort that might have been spent reading & viewing to far better use. YMMV.

  103. 103.

    celticdragonchick

    @Brachiator:

    Now Martin has backed himself into a corner. He has to create some new characters as compelling as the ones he has destroyed. And he has to bring the story to a satisfying conclusion. Quite a high wire act, and not one that too many authors try.

    If you are having to create new characters in order to resolve narrative problems from your first five books…you fucked something up fundamentally in the narrative.

  104. 104.

    celticdragonchick

    @Brachiator:

    Which is one of the reasons I love it. You have all these dopes insisting that they want characters that they can root for, or comfortably predictable story arcs, or characters that seek and get redemption.

    A good response from deadspin:

    Listen, I won’t begrudge you if you enjoy relentless torment and degradation and whoops-you-thought-he-was-the-big-hero-but-LOL-we-killed-him nihilism, but the show used to counterbalance all that with the occasional semblance of human feeling. But anytime not-awful people are being not-awful to each other onscreen anymore, you’re braced for the cynical gut-punch to come—you know it’s just fleeting, insincere kindness designed to make the inevitable cruelty crueler, which is why it’s mildly shocking Sam and Gilly didn’t trot out of the Wall and directly into a jet engine. Play the Anyone Can Die at Any Time, Especially the People You Like game long enough and the only thing left to root for is the White Walkers, or the credits.

    There are many TV shows I enjoy watching, but none I enjoy watching as much as I enjoy not watching this one. Which is not to say I’ll stop now, though it’s not so much that I’ll hate-watch season six as season six will be hate-broadcast to me, all the remaining women further degraded and Walk of Shame’d into full-blown, full-frontal oblivion. all the scant few remaining Good People grindingly rendered horrible or killed horribly. “Hey, do this logical, pragmatic thing.” “Nah, dogg, I’m gonna do this rash, suicidal, knuckleheaded, ostensibly honorable thing instead.” [Hit by bus.] [Bus raped by another bus.] [Both buses fall off a cliff, explode.] I’ve got enough problems, and so do you.

    http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/game-of-thrones-needs-to-put-us-out-of-its-misery-1711317572

    That is about how I feel about it at this point. I don’t give a shit about any of the surviving charcters at this point…and when I find I am rooting for the zombies to fucking wipe out the whole squalid, incompetent mess, then I probably don’t need to be watching it at all.

  106. 106.

    Lurking Canadian

    @celticdragonchick: That was more or less my view on my first read through. I got to where I realized the gods were not uncaring, but rather genuinely hostile. You actually could predict who was going to die next, by seeing who was acting most like a heroic character.

    People sometimes criticize those who complain about this with “You just want a story full of ponies and rainbows!” Well, no, but there has to be some reason I’m reading. Unless literally everybody is going to die, some people are going to live through all this shit. Why not make one of them the protagonist?

  107. 107.

    Brachiator

    @celticdragonchick:

    If you are having to create new characters in order to resolve narrative problems from your first five books…you fucked something up fundamentally in the narrative.

    Not at all. What law is there that says that the characters you begin with are the characters you end with?

    The deadspin quote is exactly what I am against. I notice more people rebelling from the literature they are taught in school, often with good reason because the teachers do everything they can to make literature a dull, boring chore. So instead folks rush to lightweight wish fulfillment stuff. They have a right to this, but it is just dumbasss to accuse Martin of nihilsm. He ain’t doing philosophy. And the deadspin post again whines about wanting characters you can root for, because dammit these readers want to be happy and entertained and have everything wrapped up nice and neat.

    And some of these people were shocked at the Red Wedding, but figured that Martin would settle down and give them what they wanted, and make them happy. But Martin has been consistent with what he has been doing with the narrative and the characters. He’s not Euripides, but he doesn’t have to be. If people don’t like it, they can bail. HBO may end up with a turkey on their hands. But the show runners have talked to Martin because they can’t wait for novels to be finished. They think they have a show worth doing. Martin thinks he has a novel worth completing. I’m curious to see if they can deliver.

    BTW, I was watching a Japanese language historical drama that had the same problem. The characters you met early on were much more compelling than those you met in the later part of the story, set decades later. The actors in the early years segments were also more fun to watch. This show didn’t quite succeed in the later episodes. So I do think that Martin has a problem; I’m not just a complaisant fan. If he is smart, and if the next novel is good, he will try to make sure that it is published before the new season starts.

  108. 108.

    Brachiator

    @Lurking Canadian:

    People sometimes criticize those who complain about this with “You just want a story full of ponies and rainbows!” Well, no, but there has to be some reason I’m reading.

    I think your complaint is entirely valid. I just don’t think that an author needs to satisfy you directly. He or she only owes you a compelling story, even if there is no clear main protagonist. But this goes against the grain of fan service happy slappy stuff that is only too happy to pander to readers.

    But in spite of all the deaths, Martin has done something interesting. I want to see the Wildings live and the people deal with the White Walkers. I want to know who the hell the King of the Walkers might be. As much as I hate Cersei, I want to see if she has learned anything. There is still a compelling story to be told. And for now it is still better than most of the stuff served up on television.

  109. 109.

    Bill

    @Brachiator:

    And the deadspin post again whines about wanting characters you can root for, because dammit these readers want to be happy and entertained and have everything wrapped up nice and neat

    Characters you can root for don’t have to be “good guys,” or even moving toward a “happy” and “neat” ending. Tony Soprano was a psychopath. A genuinely bad guy. Unlikable in almost every way. And yet I still rooted for him to figure it out.

    But again the biggest problem with GOT is not the lack of interesting characters. If anything the show suffers from too many characters. The problem is that it’s so damn slooooooooow. The plot advances at glacial speeds. Even with the most likable characters in the world the show would still be terrible, because an hour of a mute carrying a kid on his back is just bad TV.

  110. 110.

    shell

    Here I thought Drogon was semi-starving, lying on his bed of bare bones. But I guess he was just tiiiiired. Dany went looking for food for herself. These lands seem to be distinctly bare of wildlife.

  111. 111.

    celticdragonchick

    @Lurking Canadian:

    People sometimes criticize those who complain about this with “You just want a story full of ponies and rainbows!” Well, no, but there has to be some reason I’m reading. Unless literally everybody is going to die, some people are going to live through all this shit. Why not make one of them the protagonist?

    Yes.

    Even leaving the horrible sexual issues aside (fridging Sansa for Theon’s character development…https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators…the nearly constant drumbeat of rape, torture and pedophilia), I found I had run out of characters I cared about and I actively hoped that most of the others would just killed off at some point.

    In other words, viewing the show was becoming a prurient experience of just wanting to see the new supervillain of the week killed off…which of course isn’t going to happen. If I dont care about who is left or whether they die or not…why the fuck am I watching? I turned it off.

  112. 112.

    Viva BrisVegas

    What GRRM has said about the genesis of GoT is that it always was intended to be an antidote to romantised fantasy. Almost all modern fantasy is essentially a reimagining of a chivalric Fifteenth Century full of honorable Knights and Ladies with villianous villeins plus dragons and/or elves.

    Except the Fifteenth Century wasn’t romantic or honorable. What it had was the 100 Years War and the Wars of the Roses. What it remembered was the Black Death and the Wat Tyler Rebellion. There was death, lots of it, and mostly of people who didn’t deserve it. There were claims of honor and duty and of disloyal backstabbing coming from the very same person, often at the same time.

    There were armies that tramped over France and England leaving famine and pestilence in their wake. There was, unpleasant as it is to recall, even rape.

    We watch/read fantasy to better understand the human condition and get a few thrills along the way. I’ve no problem with criticising GoT for being slow, but criticising it for rape and violence is like criticising War and Peace for including the Napoleonic War. If they were left out of the story we would just be left with another false romantic narrative.

    I mention War and Peace because I like to think that its epilogue influenced GRRM in his narrative.

  113. 113.

    celticdragonchick

    @Viva BrisVegas:

    I’ve no problem with criticising GoT for being slow, but criticising it for rape and violence is like criticising War and Peace for including the Napoleonic War.

    Oh fer fucks sake…do I really need to see Sansa get re-victimized again (and raped!) so that Reek/Theon can develop his fucking character arc??!

    Do I need to see Ser Trant whipping little girls in a brothel before raping them to know that he is a very bad man?

    Do I need to see Cersie raped by Jaime on the tomb of their own freaking son??

    …and not to mention numerous prostitutes, wildlings and various other women who all get defiled in some way.

    Oh…and an entire season of torturing Theon.

    This isn’t realistic…it’s fucking exploitive. It’s torture/rape porn (with extra boobies!) for middle aged men.

    Yeah, sure, we can talk about Tilly’s army sacking German cities in the 30 Years War and shit like that, but this was never meant to portray actual Medieval life or Renaissance life. It’s a goddamned fantasy with dragons, and GRR Martin decided to have some really disturbing material because he didn’t think The Lord of the Rings had enough tits and ass.

    So we get Jeyne Pool (in the books) getting raped by dogs… with Sansa Stark getting to take the Poole story line on screen (thank God they left out the canine rape bit)

  114. 114.

    Mr Stagger Lee

    Personally I wish Pete Carroll was given the Cersei treatment for his bone headed decision in Super Bowl XLI.

  115. 115.

    Brachiator

    @celticdragonchick: You’re absolutely right. You don’t need to see the catalog of horrors that have been shown season after season. And I know many other people who greatly prefer a quick shorthand to indicate that a villain is a very, very bad person.

    Yeah, sure, we can talk about Tilly’s army sacking German cities in the 30 Years War and shit like that, but this was never meant to portray actual Medieval life or Renaissance life.

    I agree with you for the most part here. There are some people who insist on reading Game of Thrones as an allegory of actual medieval history. I don’t know, maybe it validates the idea that they are watching fiction, instead of doing something useful. But it is just wrong to try to justify something that exists in a fictional world just because it may have been inspired by historical events.

    It’s a goddamned fantasy with dragons, and GRR Martin decided to have some really disturbing material because he didn’t think The Lord of the Rings had enough tits and ass.

    Here, I much prefer Martin’s universe to the asexual, antiseptic and largely women-free universe of the Lord of the Rings. Different authors, different needs, different aims.

    Game of Thrones is a fantasy with dragons and gratuitous sex and violence, and tits and ass. I understand that people have been repelled by some of what has been shown. Maybe someone will come up with a more refined show that will be a tremendous success.

  116. 116.

    TheWatcher

    @celticdragonchick: Yup, the reality of our common, shared history, both past and present, is too much to bear for you in allegorical form. You have my sympathy. Looking into the mirror can be a very frightening thing.

    I suggest you not visit the shantytowns outside the large African cities of 2015. GoT is a Disney movie compared to those places.

  117. 117.

    celticdragonchick

    @TheWatcher:

    I have a degree in history. My senior thesis was on the institutionalization of violence by Robespierre and the Jacobins before and during the Terror during the French Revolution.

    GoT doesn’t do historical violence. It fetishizes violence with attractive young people getting tortured and raped over and over and over and over again.

    Nice analysis here…http://www.therainbowhub.com/jeyne-poole-and-bad-storytelling-why-we-need-to-stop-making-excuses-for-gratuitous-rape-scenes/

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