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You are here: Home / Gun Issues / Gun nuts / Shootings in South Carolina

Shootings in South Carolina

by John Cole|  June 18, 20151:21 am| 236 Comments

This post is in: Gun nuts, Post-racial America, Sociopaths

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Nine people are reported dead from a terrorist attack at a black church in Charleston, South Carolina. Among the dead are a reverend and a State Senator was assassinated, as well:

Nine people were shot, some fatally, inside one of Charleston’s oldest and most well known black churches tonight. A bomb threat complicated the investigation and prompted police to ask nearby residents to evacuate.

Reporters and other onlookers huddled at the scene awaiting details on what could prove to be one of the worst mass shootings in South Carolina history.

Description of the perp was a slender white guy with a shaved head. Horrible.

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Reader Interactions

236Comments

  1. 1.

    piratedan

    June 18, 2015 at 1:23 am

    from what I understand, the Reverend was the State Senator…. CNN doing their usual crappy job covering it, I’ve gone over the BBC News to reduce the usual US media biases and speculation that ensue

  2. 2.

    Comrade Luke

    June 18, 2015 at 1:30 am

    Man, it’s going to take quite a while to come up with rap sheets on nine victims.

  3. 3.

    lamh36

    June 18, 2015 at 1:31 am

    MSNBC is no better.

    @POPSspotSports
    MSNBC woman asks Sharpton if he is afraid ppl “will act out”. SO insulting. #Charlestonterrorist #Charlestonshooting

    That is why I’m on twitter. smdh.

    I like Benjy Sarlin, but right now him and the anchor on MSNBC are covering this like it’s just another “random act of violence” rather than a case of probably domestic terror.

    Sarlin saying people are “fed up about the violence” as if the people are talking about gang violence or random shooting…smdh

  4. 4.

    Comrade Luke

    June 18, 2015 at 1:33 am

    @lamh36:

    Tweet of God retweeted:

    @UTHornsRawk
    Could this guy be an #ISIS sympathizer going after #CHRISTIANS? #ISIS warned us small attacks coming. #Charleston #islam

    Yes, I’m sure that’s it.

  5. 5.

    NotMax

    June 18, 2015 at 1:38 am

    @Comrade Luke

    UTHornsRawk?

    Why is Lindsey Graham using a pseudonym?

  6. 6.

    seaboogie

    June 18, 2015 at 1:39 am

    If he isn’t already playing a tune, Nero is damn sure tuning his fiddle….

  7. 7.

    lamh36

    June 18, 2015 at 1:42 am

    Damnit. RIP. I’m gonna have to go to bed soon, but my heart is heavy. I’m gonna try to stay on twitter until the WH issues a statment.

    @HeavySan
    Rev. Pinckney was only 41. He had two young children: http://heavy.com/news/2015/06/clementa-pinckney-dead-charleston-church-shooting-victim-black-church-pastor-ame-shot-injury/ … #RIP #breaking

  8. 8.

    Trentrunner

    June 18, 2015 at 1:45 am

    Flipping between CNN and MSNBC and not one mention of “terrorism.”

    And the woman anchoring MSNBC is a real idiot. She’s asking–without apparent guile–if “anything in South Carolina history might have prompted this or be connected to it.”

    Hmmm…South Carolina…welp, nothing comes to mind! Lone killer! Mental illness!

  9. 9.

    Trentrunner

    June 18, 2015 at 1:47 am

    And for a situation where a mass murderer is on the loose, I’m seeing an awful lot of fat fucking cops standing around doing jack shit.

    Compare/contrast with the Boston bombing. They closed a fucking city.

  10. 10.

    Time Travelin'

    June 18, 2015 at 1:50 am

    Not a terrorist attack. The second amendment hero was white, which means it could not have been terrorism. There’s a good chance he was a cop who was in fear for his life.

  11. 11.

    James E Powell

    June 18, 2015 at 1:52 am

    Governor who flies Confederate flag at SC capitol says “we’ll never understand what motivates” #Charlestown massacre

    Chase Madar on Twitter

  12. 12.

    Suzanne

    June 18, 2015 at 1:57 am

    I wish it wasn’t a political act to wonder if this person was mentally ill. Because he probably is. Mental illness is incredibly common, and guns are incredibly common.

    Acts of terror, like this one, are a predictable outcome when we don’t treat the mentally ill, we provide unfettered access to guns, and we fill the public discourse with racism, sexism, and fearmongering.

  13. 13.

    El Caganer

    June 18, 2015 at 1:59 am

    @James E Powell: Isn’t that just fucking great? “We’ll never understand….mental health issues…blather, blather….” and they don’t have the faintest fucking idea who this guy is? Our Liberal Media isn’t exactly doing any heavy lifting here, either; what might be echoing from South Carolina’s past here? It is a mystery! If there weren’t dead and injured human beings here, it would sound like a Paddy Chayefsky script.

  14. 14.

    lamh36

    June 18, 2015 at 2:03 am

    @James E Powell: speaking of which is they dare to fly the damn confederate flag at half mast tomorrow, I’ll fuckin’ be willing to drive to SC to burn that bish down.

    Ugh.

  15. 15.

    Mary G

    June 18, 2015 at 2:06 am

    Sometimes I wonder if this country will ever really heal from the self-inflicted wound of slavery.

  16. 16.

    lamh36

    June 18, 2015 at 2:10 am

    Apparently the gunman entered the sanctuary, sat down for the bible study awhile before opening fire.

    They welcomed the sumabitch in and he massacred 8 in the sanctuary and 1 died on way to hospital.

    Gawd damnit.

  17. 17.

    lamh36

    June 18, 2015 at 2:11 am

    Local NAACP official: Gunman told survivor he’d let her live so she could tell everyone else what happened. #CharlestonShooting
    https://twitter.com/offlede/status/611414951027167232

  18. 18.

    bago

    June 18, 2015 at 2:26 am

    Give the grieving some space.

  19. 19.

    JordanRules

    June 18, 2015 at 2:32 am

    Hearing that it was Denmark Vesey’s church, that his sons rebuilt. Wow.

  20. 20.

    Arclite

    June 18, 2015 at 2:34 am

    What the Fuck. Horrible.

    Good point about Boston.

  21. 21.

    David Koch

    June 18, 2015 at 2:39 am

    WSB-TV ‏@wsbtv 2h2 hours ago

    #Charleston police chief: “I do believe this is a hate crime.” 9 confirmed dead

  22. 22.

    JordanRules

    June 18, 2015 at 2:47 am

    Why are reports oddly and somewhat specific about the shooters age?

  23. 23.

    Freemark

    June 18, 2015 at 2:48 am

    According to the comments at the link guns would have prevented this. Personally I think tax cuts would have worked better. Actually, tax cuts for guns would solve all of the worlds problems and everyone would get a pony.

  24. 24.

    Freemark

    June 18, 2015 at 2:52 am

    @JordanRules: I noticed that too. The one person detained was also 21. I can see it now; someone will recognize the description and then go, “he’s 22 so it must not be him” and not call the police..

  25. 25.

    lamh36

    June 18, 2015 at 2:56 am

    @JordanRules: I suspect they may have some idea about the shooter just won’t release until they apprehend him

  26. 26.

    JordanRules

    June 18, 2015 at 3:02 am

    @lamh36: Yup. I think so too. Not sure about that strategy. Obviously I’m not an expert and I lack f*cking trust with these folks.

  27. 27.

    Major Major Major Major

    June 18, 2015 at 3:11 am

    As a mentally ill person (cyclothymia), I f*cking loathe people who lump us all together.

    Also this is horrible. And I was hoping to have a nice night’s sleep.

  28. 28.

    opiejeanne

    June 18, 2015 at 3:14 am

    @James E Powell: WHAT???? WHAT???? WHAT THE FUCKING WHAT?

  29. 29.

    Gene108

    June 18, 2015 at 3:32 am

    @Suzanne:

    I think the issue is the media is already launching a Hinckley-style defense of the shooting before the suspect is apprehended by speculating he is mentally ill.

    There’s no call for it right now.

  30. 30.

    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)

    June 18, 2015 at 3:55 am

    I’d try to list all of the predictable things people are going to do and say in the aftermath of this but I don’t know whether I have the heart for it right now. I do know that whatever else comes out if this, if anybody tries to either talk about race in America or about guns, Republicans will come out of the woodwork to tell us that we mustn’t “politicize” the tragedy. Sometimes I feel sick of this country…

  31. 31.

    David Koch

    June 18, 2015 at 4:21 am

    PeleOfBanal
    6/17/15 11:55pm

    He’s not a 12 year old black kid with a toy gun. They’ll bring him in alive for sure.

  32. 32.

    Zinsky

    June 18, 2015 at 5:10 am

    What a hideous, senseless tragedy. More proof that we need sensible gun control. I’m sure that South Carolina’s brilliant, closeted Senator Lindsey Graham will blame the victims by asserting that “moral decay” caused the shooting (a code phrase for liberalism) and recommend tax cuts for the wealthy as the solution.

  33. 33.

    Professor

    June 18, 2015 at 5:19 am

    Has anyone sent a congratulatory note to Fox ‘News’, especially Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly, Megyn Kelly etc?

  34. 34.

    raven

    June 18, 2015 at 5:30 am

    The Georgia Department of Driver Services confirmed Wednesday that it had ordered the removal of a bright yellow “Illegal Alien Hunting Permit” sticker from the cubicle of one of its investigators.

    The sticker also declares that, as a “Hunting Permit,” it may be used “under the influence of alcohol.”

    “May hunt day or night with or without dogs around borders, poultry, plants, onion fields, farms, citrus groves, construction sites, goats, low riders, tunnels and packing plants,” the sticker continues. “May use Coronas, Jose Cuervo and burritos as bait. No bag limit — Tagging not required.”

  35. 35.

    SFAW

    June 18, 2015 at 5:44 am

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    Sometimes I feel sick of this country…

    “Sometimes”? You haven’t been paying attention.

    (Although I’d change “of” to “for,” but that’s personal preference.)

    If a neutron-bomb-like device were to wipe out the top 20 or so layers of Rethug “management” in this country (figuratively speaking), it could only be to America’s benefit.

  36. 36.

    SFAW

    June 18, 2015 at 5:46 am

    @raven:

    “We’re shocked — SHOCKED — that something like that goes on here!”

  37. 37.

    sparrow

    June 18, 2015 at 5:49 am

    I’m so sad and depressed about this. Fucking racist trash everywhere, in a state awash with guns. And no real hope on the horizon. One thinks “the younger kids are better, less racist, less intolerant”… the shooter was 21.

  38. 38.

    Keith G

    June 18, 2015 at 5:49 am

    Tough news. So very disturbing.

    @bago: Unfortunately, that can never happen anymore. Here or anywhere else that is wired.

  39. 39.

    Baud

    June 18, 2015 at 5:52 am

    @raven:

    Should have kept the sticker and removed the investigator.

  40. 40.

    Keith G

    June 18, 2015 at 5:54 am

    @sparrow: It seems to me very clear that the younger folks are better at this. Please don’t take the actions of one, or over the course of time other young folks, as an indictment of a whole class of people. Don’t give in to the poisons of anger and despair.

  41. 41.

    Baud

    June 18, 2015 at 5:54 am

    IIRC, South Carolina prosecutors actually seemed to do OK when it came to unjustified cop shootings. I hope the catch the guy soon.

  42. 42.

    raven

    June 18, 2015 at 6:00 am

    Looks like they have some video.

  43. 43.

    JGabriel

    June 18, 2015 at 6:00 am

    I know this is going to sound extremely radical, but does anyone else think this event shows that, you know, racism might still be a problem in this country?

    I hope John Roberts gets the memo.

  44. 44.

    JGabriel

    June 18, 2015 at 6:05 am

    twitter via lamh36:

    MSNBC woman asks Sharpton if he is afraid ppl “will act out”.

    I think a white man killing 9 black people in a church already qualifies as acting out. At this point any actions taken by the community in response are just that – a response.

  45. 45.

    kc

    June 18, 2015 at 6:21 am

    http://www.wired.com/2012/08/dhs/

  46. 46.

    Zandar

    June 18, 2015 at 6:25 am

    That’s a hell of a thing to wake up this morning.

    A couple of unconfirmed reports that the shooter purposefully left one woman alive and unharmed in order to bear witness to this slaughter.

    Yes, this was a right-wing domestic terrorism attack. Period.

  47. 47.

    Schlemazel

    June 18, 2015 at 6:27 am

    @Keith G:
    Younger people, you mean like 20 year olds? Er, no sadly

    I’m with Smedly & SFAW – sick at heart about the conditions we have made here.

  48. 48.

    JPL

    June 18, 2015 at 6:31 am

    @Zandar: This.
    How awful.

  49. 49.

    ThresherK

    June 18, 2015 at 6:31 am

    @lamh36: “How many blacks have to be shot by skinheads in the South, before they lower the Confederate flag all the way?” is supposed to be one of those black humor what-ifs.

    These terrorists are gonna put The Onion out of business.

  50. 50.

    Schlemazel

    June 18, 2015 at 6:32 am

    @JGabriel:
    Mr. Roberts has never witnessed any racism so probably no affect on him – hell he even has to work with a ni . . . ni . . . knee-grow so that proves racism is dead, we even elected one of them boys as President.

    I have stopped reading so many comment sections because the white cluelessness/repressed racism just makes me ill. I can’t imagine what it must be like to see that shit & not have my advantage as a white guy.

  51. 51.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    June 18, 2015 at 6:33 am

    @Zandar: Yes, this was a right-wing domestic terrorism attack. Period.

    I’ve seen a report that the FBI agrees with you.

  52. 52.

    Phylllis

    June 18, 2015 at 6:40 am

    The police have released surveillance video & photos. Young white guy, head is not shaved. They believe he’s left the area. Clementa Pinckney, the pastor and state senator who was killed, served from Allendale, SC, one the ten poorest counties in the US. I used to work with him when I worked in Allendale. He was a good guy, definitely committed to improving the lives of his constituents.

  53. 53.

    Debbie(aussie)

    June 18, 2015 at 6:48 am

    I’m so very sorry.

  54. 54.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 18, 2015 at 7:03 am

    SSDD

  55. 55.

    The Thin Black Duke

    June 18, 2015 at 7:10 am

    You know what I’m afraid of?

    I’m afraid this motherfucker is going to disappear, just like Eric Rudolph did.

    Damn it, I hate this fucking country.

  56. 56.

    MomSense

    June 18, 2015 at 7:12 am

    This is terrorism. The media, gun fetishists, and politicians are going to be spinning themselves dizzy trying to make it something else.

  57. 57.

    Gindy51

    June 18, 2015 at 7:12 am

    @Phylllis: Could be a wig too, I mean Prince Valiant hair?

  58. 58.

    MomSense

    June 18, 2015 at 7:14 am

    @Gindy51:

    Yeah that’s what I thought, too about the hair.

  59. 59.

    satby

    June 18, 2015 at 7:16 am

    @The Thin Black Duke: Eric Rudolph was caught and convicted, eventually. This guy will be too.
    Not that it makes anything better. But they will get him.

  60. 60.

    Gimlet

    June 18, 2015 at 7:19 am

    Maybe the car will be the clue. There are probably other surveillance images of it and the registration will lead in his direction.

    Fingerprints?

  61. 61.

    MomSense

    June 18, 2015 at 7:24 am

    @Baud:

    Yup.

  62. 62.

    The Thin Black Duke

    June 18, 2015 at 7:32 am

    @satby: Maybe.

    But unfortunately, things are crazier now than it was then, y’know?

    I mean, there’s a reason why you see white guys who can legally carry their guns out in public now.

    That’s not an accident.

    As Gil Scott-Heron so wisely observed, “It follows a scheme, if you dig what I mean.”

  63. 63.

    Sherparick

    June 18, 2015 at 7:35 am

    @lamh36: The slow “Foxification” of MSM continues, as the competition to poach Roger Ailes audience encourages all the Broadcast and Cable News (really infotainment) programs to address an old, white, audience, that starting in their youth in the seventies as been taught to fear and suspect the Angry Black person. So when something like this happens, this audience is not concerned with the victims or the social context of the crime, but with “are they coming for us in our gated communities.!!”

  64. 64.

    debbie

    June 18, 2015 at 7:37 am

    @Suzanne:

    People like to point to mental illness as the cause for these incidents. It’s neat, it’s tidy, and it allows people (particularly 2nd Amendment lovers) to point blame at “others.”

    Mental illness may be a factor in some cases, but the common denominator in every shooting incident in fact is rage. And because every single human being is capable of rage, guns have become so very dangerous. We have got to find a way to protect us from ourselves.

  65. 65.

    Professor

    June 18, 2015 at 7:38 am

    Is it not cowardly and obscene, going to a place of worship (church) to gun down worshippers at peace with their God? Words fail me. Is this a symptomatic vision of American Exceptionalism?

  66. 66.

    The Dude

    June 18, 2015 at 7:39 am

    The real story here is whether black people will control themselves in the aftermath of this unfortunate, isolated incident perpetrated by a mentally ill liberal.

    SMH.

  67. 67.

    Knowbody

    June 18, 2015 at 7:41 am

    You know what will really help?

    Another speech from Obama about this “tragedy” and a stern promise from the U.S. Attorney General that they will investigate this as a civil rights issue.

    That will fix things I’m sure.

  68. 68.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 7:42 am

    Someone on last night’s thread asked how Fox would cover last night’s massacre.

    EW Jackson, black crazy ass pastor/GOP Virginia lt. governor candidate with Cuccinelli: on right now:

    It’s a war on Christians.

    And someone in those churches should arm themselves to defend.

  69. 69.

    raven

    June 18, 2015 at 7:42 am

    Rev Clemente’s cousin was just on and said the victims had a conversation for over an hour with this terrorist before he killed then. He said “you have vilified women and taken over this country, I have to do this”.

  70. 70.

    raven

    June 18, 2015 at 7:44 am

    Would someone with the keys band this lowlife motherfucker “knowbody”?

  71. 71.

    Iowa Old Lady

    June 18, 2015 at 7:44 am

    Honest question here: Why is there a struggle over calling this terrorism? What do various actors gain or lose by that title being applied?

    Or maybe that’s too distant a question for this horrible moment. I think Suzanne’s analysis at #12 is spot on. Mix mental illness, easy access to guns, racism, and stoking of anger by politicians and media, and you get violent acts.

  72. 72.

    Baud

    June 18, 2015 at 7:46 am

    @raven:

    I’ll second that.

  73. 73.

    kc

    June 18, 2015 at 7:46 am

    @raven:

    What tha? Christ.

  74. 74.

    Gimlet

    June 18, 2015 at 7:46 am

    @debbie:

    My two cents

    I think it was more an act of fantasy.

    He knew about Wed. night church gatherings so probably raised religious. Picked blacks for victims partly because racist but more media attention with them.

    Hardcore racist would be age 40 and use a bomb.

  75. 75.

    Patricia Kayden

    June 18, 2015 at 7:49 am

    @Suzanne: Why does he have to be mentally ill? He’s a racist who picked an all Black church to target. This is not complicated.

  76. 76.

    kc

    June 18, 2015 at 7:49 am

    @Gindy51:

    Yeah. I actually thought it was a hat in the first pic I saw.

    I hope LE can enhance those pics.

  77. 77.

    raven

    June 18, 2015 at 7:50 am

    @Patricia Kayden: Agreed, that’s a bullshit way out.

  78. 78.

    Baud

    June 18, 2015 at 7:50 am

    @Gimlet:

    How many people in their forties commit acts of terrorism? It’s a young man’s game.

  79. 79.

    Patricia Kayden

    June 18, 2015 at 7:50 am

    @lamh36: He sat in the Bible story for one whole hour according to ABC News.

  80. 80.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 18, 2015 at 7:51 am

    @Iowa Old Lady: the word “terrorist” is reserved for the use of Republicans and is only to be applied as they see fit.

    @raven: I’ll 3rd it.

  81. 81.

    Iowa Old Lady

    June 18, 2015 at 7:54 am

    @Patricia Kayden: I don’t know. Killing 9 people in cold blood takes something beyond normal human nastiness. I guess it depends on how you define mental illness. I understand the issue of tarring other mentally ill people. I’ve been treated depression myself.

  82. 82.

    Rob Bush

    June 18, 2015 at 7:54 am

    Shooting victim State Senator Clementa Pinckney (Pastor of the Emanuel A.M.E. Church) was campaigning earlier in the day with Hillary Clinton.

    Any bets on how long until this is added to the Clinton Body Count?

  83. 83.

    The Thin Black Duke

    June 18, 2015 at 7:55 am

    @Patricia Kayden: Exactly.

    This was a violent racist act by a violent racist asshole.

    And calling it something other than what it is goddamned offensive.

    Because it diminishes black people’s lives even more.

  84. 84.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 18, 2015 at 7:55 am

    @Baud: Tell that to the KC shooter (forget his name, targeted Jews, got non-Jews but they were in front of a Jewish center so close enough) aged 78 I think.

  85. 85.

    beth

    June 18, 2015 at 7:55 am

    @Patricia Kayden: That makes it so much worse to me. When I’ve attended Bible study, it’s usually a group of people who know each other well and sit and chat about their lives, work and family in addition to whatever we’re studying. It takes a real cold heart not to see the humanity of people in that situation and be able to coolly pull the trigger. Definitely a sociopath.

  86. 86.

    Baud

    June 18, 2015 at 7:57 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    So many killings, I actually don’t remember that one.

  87. 87.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 7:58 am

    Switching from Fox and Friends. Most I ever watched in my life. (12 minutes)

    They’re discussing “killer balcony collapses” now. Because you know their elderly audience it out hip hopping on balconies en masse when their asses aren’t parked in front of the telly.

    [ETA: or perhaps they’re actually landlords who fear being sued… fear, fear, fear….]

    The news roundup of top stories: (1) white teen in Canada killed when he used app to find his missing cell phone; I forget #2, and (3) was Brian Williams — per the NY Post — has lost his gig at NBC but is going somewhere else undisclosed. [Multiple other sources report Williams is headed to MSNBC, but Fox not reporting that so its viewers can decide.]

    Just switched from CNN to Fox and they’re finishing a prefilmed segment about balcony collapses and construction techniques to protect against water damage ….

    Now: they are covering the Charleston shooting, big story they’ve told us about. Briefly, informed shooter is white, showed his photo. (20 secs, tops) Then: onto item about SEALS who killed Bin Laden.

  88. 88.

    Gimlet

    June 18, 2015 at 7:58 am

    @Baud:

    The 1963 church bombing in Birmingham would be a reference point. They were all older than their 20s.

  89. 89.

    ThresherK

    June 18, 2015 at 7:58 am

    @Patricia Kayden: How about “you’re both edging to being correct”?

    We’re looking at what seems to be “snowglobers”, self-referring guys (and I mean males) in a hermetically sealed environment who don’t know anything more than what they tell each other and what they get from the “talking lightbulb” of Fox News.

    My wife is a psychotherapist. She considers these people like a group in desperate need of a group therapist. And none of which think they have a problem.

  90. 90.

    Patricia Kayden

    June 18, 2015 at 7:58 am

    @Iowa Old Lady: So all throughout American history when Whites murdered Blacks via lynching, all of those Whites (including those who photographed and picknicked during the lynchings) were mentally ill?

    Really? Could we please leave the mentally ill alone when someone intentionally engages in violence? It’s really unfair to mentally ill people? Is there any evidence that being mentally ill = random acts of senseless violence? I doubt it.

  91. 91.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 8:02 am

    Shooter is thin as a reed; don’t see him carrying anything in the pic.

    What weapon did he have that the Bible group did not notice, and that was capable of shooting so many before someone reached him?

  92. 92.

    satby

    June 18, 2015 at 8:03 am

    @The Thin Black Duke: Yeah, I wouldn’t disagree with that either.

  93. 93.

    Stacy

    June 18, 2015 at 8:04 am

    Just saw that the people begged him to stop as her reloaded 5 times and he said he couldn’t because “you people rape our women and are taking over the country.”

  94. 94.

    Baud

    June 18, 2015 at 8:04 am

    @Gimlet:

    OK, I’m wrong. Terrorism is an equal opportunity endeavor.

  95. 95.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 18, 2015 at 8:05 am

    @Baud:

    Overland Park Jewish Community Center shooting

    April 13, 2014- The suspect was later identified as 73-year-old Frazier Glenn Miller, Jr. of Aurora, Missouri, originally from North Carolina. He was a Neo-Nazi and former political candidate.[8]

    They do blur together, don’t they?

  96. 96.

    raven

    June 18, 2015 at 8:06 am

    @Elizabelle: Probably a 9.

  97. 97.

    raven

    June 18, 2015 at 8:07 am

    @Stacy: I thought she said he said “vilified” not raped but I could be wrong.

  98. 98.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 8:07 am

    Fox News: DC police officer suggests first thing is checking local fast food and gas stations: he probably fueled up on something for energy.

    where are the weapons? Did he stage them inside?

    Guy seems familiar with the church. Did he attend previous events?

    Does he have a little pouch in the photo? Is it a wig and fake nose?

    Also: sweatshirt worn, and it’s 90 degrees out.

    Cop: sweatshirt’s on to hide whatever’s on the white tee shirt underneath.

  99. 99.

    Gimlet

    June 18, 2015 at 8:07 am

    @Stacy:

    Sounds like he was upset with Obama as well as generally racist.

  100. 100.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 8:10 am

    Now Fox is interviewing a white SC politician who knew the slain pastor/politician Pinckney.

    Fox is heavy on the religion aspect of the attack. Pol: “Evil is in this world. Evil is real.”

    It’s state senator Larry Grooms (R).

  101. 101.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 8:11 am

    Grooms is talking now about the “politics of hate.” It’s a new thing. Not specified.

    But “we need faith, we need to return to God, more than at any time in our nation’s history.”

    Now on to another story. Planned terrorist attack by smiling black teen. And the NYS prison escape.

    And sharks!

    And that was the #2 most important story on the earlier roundup: shark attack on a young boy in Daytona Beach.

  102. 102.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 8:15 am

    Gotta say this: Fox is more restful viewing, during the day. Positively relaxing, and not monofocused on the Charleston massacre.

  103. 103.

    satby

    June 18, 2015 at 8:15 am

    @Patricia Kayden: Of course that was terrorism against black people, designed to keep them compliant and low on the social order. Wasn’t called that then, but we recognize it now for what it was.

    But up to 1/4 of the population suffers from some mental illness at some point, and the Venn diagram of mental illness and terrorist probably overlaps a bit. It’s unfair that the focus is on the diffuse phrase “mental illness” instead of the “rage induced psychosis” that would fuel an act so vile.

    And that there has been a deliberate attempt by several politicians and “news sources” to fan that rage is unconscionable.

  104. 104.

    Iowa Old Lady

    June 18, 2015 at 8:16 am

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Is there any evidence that being mentally ill = random acts of senseless violence?

    I don’t think that, and I don’t believe I said that.

    I think a lot of things come together in an act like this, none of them reflecting well on our culture.

  105. 105.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 18, 2015 at 8:16 am

    @Elizabelle:

    But “we need faith, we need to return to God, more than at any time in our nation’s history.”

    Just my opinion mind you but I think the 9 dead were returned to God a little too soon.

  106. 106.

    Germy Shoemangler

    June 18, 2015 at 8:18 am

    Interesting thoughts from Chauncey Devega:

    As shown on MSNBC Wednesday night, a local reporter asked a group of African-American activists, community leaders, and others, if the “violent” black community could have in fact prevented the mass shooting at Emanuel Baptist. This bizarre moment continued with the reporter seemingly rejecting the obvious–that racism is an obvious element in the white on black murders committed at Emanuel Baptist–and doubling down by suggesting that the black community gives comfort to “snitches”, thus wondering if black folks will in fact turn in a white domestic terrorist who had killed at least 9 people.

    [The headline on the breaking news report about the Charleston shooting was an additional example of how the White Racial Frame dominates news coverage. In plain terms, MSNBC’s headline on the bottom of the screen read something akin to “male 21-year-old suspect wanted in shootings”. He was not described as “white”: the American news media is much more likely to racially mark black and brown suspects in crimes, and to include their racial description (or religious/ethnic as in the ubiquitous “Arab” or “Muslim” “terrorist”).]

    To watch such a series of questions being asked to a community that only several hours ago suffered a viciously violent terrorist attack is wholly unbelievable; Yet somehow black Americans are so disrespected, derided, and associated with criminality that they are responsible for their own murders by a white domestic terrorist.

    A counterfactual: if such questions were ever asked to white folks whose church or synagogue was attacked by a person of color or a “Muslim”, said reporter’s career would be over, terminated, and they would likely never find employment in the news industry ever again.

  107. 107.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 8:21 am

    Back upstairs with more coffee:

    Fox is talking about “Homegrown Terror.” Per the chyron. All right. They get it.

    Oh wait. It’s about the black teenager up in NYC.

    Now they’re mentioning Charleston again. So that’s a different topic. OKKKKK…

    chatter, and now they’re telling us the NY Times has a new enemy.

    The Navy SEALS who killed Bin Laden.

    Clearly, no white guy shooting up a room full of black people is going to interfere with their planned reporting for the day …

    an ad with LeBron James and then — interesting — an ad for whooping cough vaccinations clearly targeted at grandparents. Make sure your grandchild is safe.

    That’s both excellent and fascinating.

  108. 108.

    Baud

    June 18, 2015 at 8:22 am

    @Elizabelle:

    Hope you’re not thinking of crossing over. You’re one of the good ones.

  109. 109.

    satby

    June 18, 2015 at 8:25 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: and talking about “faith and returning to God” (which party believes that again?) isn’t called out for politicizing this tragedy, but suggesting that easy access to weapons makes massacres like this more common would be.

    I say we politicize the fuck out of how no one is safe, not in school, not in church, not in court, not in your own home. Fuck the gun lobby and the rest telling us what bad manners we have for objecting to slaughter and racist dog whistling by one major political party and their enablers.

  110. 110.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 8:26 am

    @Baud: Thank you.

    No, would not cross over, but curious what they’re saying. Point is, they’re not saying much at all, and not about the precious. No one is wondering where or why the shooter has the gun …

    They’re pretty much going with what they had planned. Would not be the case if we had a different type of massacre, I think, but I don’t know.

    I’m serious about Fox being more restful viewing in the morning. Blue backgrounds, and they’re not shouting at you. Kind of normal broadcasting, from the 1980s, etc. Retro.

    That could register on some level with channel surfers, and then they get sucked in by the derp.

  111. 111.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 8:29 am

    Wait: no longer restful. Steve Doocy is on attack and semi-shouting.

    Chyron: “Bashing our heroes.” and “Clueless Critics.”

    The NYTimes (“they have an agenda”) is persecuting bin Laden SEALS.

    Doocy: “Don’t you think the NYTImes wants to see SEALS prosecuted for war crimes?”

    The guest does not take the bait.

    Up soon: should pastors be packing guns to protect their congregations?

    Good guys with guns. sigh.

  112. 112.

    Keith G

    June 18, 2015 at 8:31 am

    @Schlemazel: Both my anecdotal experience and replicated data seem to back up the notion that the younger cohort of citizens are indeed better at this than older cohorts in this country.

    This is a time of terrible news. While venting is important, even necessary, it’s also important not to give in to the despair of the time and over generalize about the bad things that are happening.

  113. 113.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 8:32 am

    Fox: “Murder in God’s House” (chyron)

  114. 114.

    Germy Shoemangler

    June 18, 2015 at 8:32 am

    Watched news this a.m. on good morning america

    George S. said the pastor had been campaigning earlier in the day with HRC.

    Said there’s a good chance shooter will be caught soon.

  115. 115.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 8:34 am

    Why are they so astonished about the “house of worship” aspect.

    Didn’t 6 Sikhs get shot up in their temple in Paul Ryan’s district a few years ago? Maybe Fox was all concerned about Sikh temples too, but I don’t know …

  116. 116.

    Baud

    June 18, 2015 at 8:35 am

    @Elizabelle:

    They are masters of stage production.

  117. 117.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 18, 2015 at 8:35 am

    @satby:

    I say we politicize the fuck out of how no one is safe, not in school, not in church, not in court, not in your own home.

    Quoting the NRA again? Seriously, that is their line and how they sell the guns. I really don’t know how to attack their thinking, outside of calling them a bunch of scaredy cats.

  118. 118.

    biff diggerence

    June 18, 2015 at 8:36 am

    As Megyn Kelly would say: “Those 9 people were no angels.”

  119. 119.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 8:36 am

    PS: the shooter allowing someone to walk out and tell people what she saw there, and telling her that’s why: that’s straight out of Kill Bill, vol. 1. Speech from Uma Thurman character to the (newly one-armed) lawyer in the trunk.

  120. 120.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 18, 2015 at 8:43 am

    @biff diggerence: They are now.

  121. 121.

    rikyrah

    June 18, 2015 at 8:45 am

    For Charleston’s Emanuel A.M.E. Church, shooting is another painful chapter in long history
    By Sarah Kaplan June 18 at 5:03 AM

    When a gunman opened fire on Charleston’s Emanuel A.M.E. Church Wednesday, spraying bullets into a group of worshippers gathered for a mid-week prayer meeting, it was as though history repeated itself.

    This historic congregation, the oldest of its kind in the South, had already seen more than its fair share of tumult and hate. It was founded by worshippers fleeing racism and burned to the ground for its connection with a thwarted slave revolt. For years its meetings were conducted in secret to evade laws that banned all-black services. It was jolted by an earthquake in 1886. Civil rights luminaries spoke from its pulpit and lead marches from its steps. For nearly two hundred years it had been the site of struggle, resistance and change.

    On Wednesday, the church was a crime scene — the street outside aglow with the flashing red lights of police cars and echoing with the screech of sirens. Nine people had been killed there, reportedly including the church’s pastor, Rev. Clementa Pinckney, though police had not confirmed his death.

    “I do believe this was a hate crime,” Charleston Police Chief Greg Mullen said at a press conference early Thursday morning.

    To those watching in Charleston and from afar, it was devastating.

    “It’s not just a church. It’s also a symbol … of black freedom,” said Robert Greene, who studies the 20th century South at the University of South Carolina. “That’s why so many folks are so upset tonight, because it’s a church that represents so much about the rich history and tradition of African Americans in Charleston.”

    In Charleston, the church is affectionately known as “Mother Emanuel,” a nod to its age and its eminence in the community. It is a place people take pride in, said Rev. Stephen Singleton, who was pastor there from 2006 to 2010 — all soaring ceilings and fine pinewood floors, with an antique pipe organ that had been shipped from Europe more than a century ago.

    “They’re just God-fearing people,” Singleton said of his former congregation. “People who lived in modesty in light of the history of the congregation they called home.”

    That history is a long and storied one. The congregation was founded in the era of slavery by Morris Brown, a founding pastor of the African Methodist Episcopal Church. In 1816, frustrated with the racism he encountered in Charleston’s segregated churches, Brown decided to form a Church of his own. About 4,000 parishioners followed him — more than 75 percent of city’s black community, according to a history published by the College of Charleston.

    From the beginning, the congregation was a focal point of community organizing and anti-slavery activism — provoking fears and intense distrust among the city’s white population. According to a PBS documentary, white Charlestonians constantly monitored the church, sometimes disrupting services and arresting worshipers.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/18/for-charlestons-emanuel-a-m-e-church-one-of-the-oldest-in-america-shooting-is-another-painful-chapter-in-long-history/?postshare=1991434621677828

  122. 122.

    kc

    June 18, 2015 at 8:46 am

    @Elizabelle:

    I thought a white guy shot a bunch of white people I church in Texas a few years ago. I’ll have to hunt for the details on Google. Might be hard to find amongst all the other mass shooting stories . . .

  123. 123.

    rikyrah

    June 18, 2015 at 8:50 am

    Nothing good about it, but Morning, Everyone :(

  124. 124.

    Gimlet

    June 18, 2015 at 8:51 am

    @rikyrah:

    Lyrical irrelevance.

    The church is also “on” Calhoun Street and next to a public square with a statue glorifying the great man John C Calhoun himself. If they want to make something of it.

  125. 125.

    Belafon

    June 18, 2015 at 8:52 am

    According to a tweet shown on DK, the shooter said “You rape our women and are taking over our country & you have to go.” He’s probably not listening to NPR.

  126. 126.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 8:54 am

    Talk about Fox sticking with its planned programming:

    Fox is interviewing Rand Paul about allowing pilots to carry guns in the cockpit. Rand would feel safer if there was a sticker on the cockpit door “we are 100% armed” vs. the 10% armed now.

    This, the day after a gun massacre.

    Yeah, you want to see a gun battle in an enclosed space. With avionics equipment.

  127. 127.

    rikyrah

    June 18, 2015 at 8:57 am

    NOTHING BUT PREMEDITATED MURDER!!

  128. 128.

    OzarkHillbilly

    June 18, 2015 at 8:57 am

    @Elizabelle: What could possibly go wrong?

  129. 129.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 9:01 am

    Fox: shooter reloaded five times, per 3 survivors.

    SO: if someone had a gun, could the shooter have been stopped? “We may never know.”

    They don’t show the shooter’s pic much. Shame, because would guess their audience is more likely to identify the shooter than many channels …..

    Fox did report the DOJ has opened a hate crime investigation.

  130. 130.

    TriassicSands

    June 18, 2015 at 9:01 am

    Description of the perp was a slender white guy with a shaved head.

    Is this another Southerner who thinks the Civil War never ended?

  131. 131.

    raven

    June 18, 2015 at 9:02 am

    @raven: I was wrong.

  132. 132.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 9:03 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: Agree w your earlier comment about the 9 souls returned to the Lord too soon.

    Fox: Bill Hemmer: “It could have been an act of race. It could have been an act of religion ….”

    whoocouldknow??

  133. 133.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 9:07 am

    Still Foxwatching.

    Good. Nutley NJ cop brings up the white supremacy possibility and that this could get reclassified as domestic terrorism.

    Fox news blonde: no reaction. Asks immediately about the sweatshirt.

  134. 134.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 9:08 am

    Fox blonde: ” it’s possible this person has a vendetta.”

    next segment: Bill Hemmer, talking to another white SC pol who knew Mr. Pinckney.

    Hemmer: “Dark day. Where the devil was doing his work.”

    White shooter. It’s the devil, I tell you.

  135. 135.

    JPL

    June 18, 2015 at 9:10 am

    @Belafon: CBS Atlanta has the same quote. It is a a hate crime but it is clear that it’s a case of domestic terrorism, also.

  136. 136.

    JPL

    June 18, 2015 at 9:12 am

    @Elizabelle: You are a brave soul. You could watch everyday and keep us informed about what the devil is saying.

  137. 137.

    Mark B.

    June 18, 2015 at 9:13 am

    @Elizabelle: I wonder if he had more than one gun, keeping people from fleeing while he was reloading. The fact that people were trying to talk him down while this was happening was pretty brave.

    A friend of mine carries her gun everywhere she goes. she would have been shot first.

  138. 138.

    TriassicSands

    June 18, 2015 at 9:13 am

    Once again a congratulatory note is in order for the five conservative justices who invented an individual right to keep and bear arms.

    Thank you, Clarence (the godfather of this horror).
    Thank you, Antonin, for your unwavering partisanship and hypocrisy.
    Thank you, John, your leadership is invaluable.
    Thank you, Sam, you’re nothing if not a tool of the Right.
    And finally, thank you, Mr. Swing Vote Kennedy, your votes make so much possible.

  139. 139.

    rikyrah

    June 18, 2015 at 9:14 am

    STEVE HUFF @SteveHuff

    Fellow white folk: do not allow anyone to equivocate on Charleston. A white man shooting up a historic black church in prayer is terrorism.

  140. 140.

    Germy Shoemangler

    June 18, 2015 at 9:15 am

    @Elizabelle:

    Fox blonde: ” it’s possible this person has a vendetta.”

    Skillfully veering it away from the domestic terrorism angle. Making it personal instead. I really think Roger Ailes or some other producer talks into their ear bud to suggest talking points.

    I remember Rosie O’Donnell saying that Elizabeth Hasselback, during their debates on The View; the producer would sit with Elizabeth before air-time and carefully go over talking points.

  141. 141.

    shell

    June 18, 2015 at 9:18 am

    I despair. I really do.

  142. 142.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 9:18 am

    @rikyrah: “Mother Emanuel.”

    Poignant. Thanks for link. Interesting article.

  143. 143.

    Suzanne

    June 18, 2015 at 9:19 am

    @Patricia Kayden: He doesn’t “have” to be mentally ill, but he probably is. From what I understand, the majority of mass shooters are mentally ill. James Holmes, Jared Loughner, Adam Lanza, that dude in Santa Barbara, etc. Murder due to rage isn’t rational when it’s random, which this is.

    None of that is to say that this is not an act of terror. It absolutely is. I know the tendency is going to be to “other” this person if it does turn out that he’s mentally ill, and we should not do that. But we have done a shitty job as a society treating those with mental illness, and stigmatizing them, and putting them in jail instead of treatment, as well. So I would not be surprised if this man had shown signs of mental illness which had been ignored.

    Again, none of that is to say that this is not an act of terror.

  144. 144.

    Cervantes

    June 18, 2015 at 9:19 am

    @rikyrah:

    A white man shooting up a historic black church in prayer is terrorism.

    Clear as day.

    No question about it — unless one is playing despicable games.

  145. 145.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 9:19 am

    @Germy Shoemangler: Not that skillfully, cuz it was pretty obvious.

    It’s another universe, and not a happy one.

  146. 146.

    JPL

    June 18, 2015 at 9:19 am

    According to the NYTimes, shots were fired at a church in Memphis. There’s little information so far on the local Memphis news stations but there were no injuries. It appeared to be a drive by shooting.

  147. 147.

    Germy Shoemangler

    June 18, 2015 at 9:20 am

    @Suzanne: You left out the Boston brothers. Mentally ill to leave a bomb next to a child?

    911 pilot. Mentally ill to fly into a skyscraper?

  148. 148.

    Belafon

    June 18, 2015 at 9:20 am

    @Germy Shoemangler: It’s going to be interesting to see what happens to FOX after Ruperts son’s take over. Not only are his son’s not right wing, neither is his daughter.

  149. 149.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 9:21 am

    @JPL: Not up to that assignment. But curious what Fox would do today.

    They are reporting the basics, but loading in lots of extra stuff too (war on Christians! A good guy with a gun could have stopped this! — look over there for “homegrown terrorism” — it’s only homegrown Muslims …)

  150. 150.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 9:26 am

    In event links are helpful: here’s that NYTimes story this week about rightwing terror groups being on police radar screens.

    The Other Terror Threat.

    Authors: Charles Kurzman teaches sociology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. David Schanzer is director of the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security at Duke University.

    … headlines can mislead. The main terrorist threat in the United States is not from violent Muslim extremists, but from right-wing extremists. Just ask the police.

  151. 151.

    Germy Shoemangler

    June 18, 2015 at 9:26 am

    @Belafon: I’m very curious about that. Are they really so not right wing? There’s so much disinformation out there.

    Will Roger Ailes rage quit? Will Megyn Kelly become Rachel Maddow suddenly? Some commenters have said the brothers and daughters are first and foremost about the bottom line. And if that means the successful house that Roger Ailes built, they won’t disrupt it.

    I’m curious to know what you and others think. It’s an important topic. Because fox news reporting on this church massacre determines how their audience of frightened ‘muricans will think about the shooting. Fox shapes opinion unfortunately.

  152. 152.

    LAC

    June 18, 2015 at 9:33 am

    @Knowbody: you know what would really help? You not procreating.

  153. 153.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 9:33 am

    @Germy Shoemangler: Fox has provided the barest facts; they’re fitting Charleston story in with their other news.

    They have not gone wall to wall with their coverage, as MSNBC and CNN have.

    Tells us they know this story could be problematic for the Fox News World view.

    They are really using an attack on religion as their squid ink of the day.

    The hosts rebuttal seems to be “race? Or religion?”

  154. 154.

    El Caganer

    June 18, 2015 at 9:36 am

    @Elizabelle: You really shouldn’t watch too much of that shit. It will make your brain leak out of your ears.

  155. 155.

    Belafon

    June 18, 2015 at 9:39 am

    @Germy Shoemangler: The short answer is: FOX News is a massive ship and will not turn quickly. I suspect we’ll start hearing more reporting about the effects of climate change and how shifting our energy consumption to renewables is good for national security since Rupert’s children consider themselves environmentalists.

  156. 156.

    Cervantes

    June 18, 2015 at 9:39 am

    @Knowbody:

    You know what will really help?

    Tell me.

  157. 157.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 9:40 am

    @El Caganer: Agreed. And I start out with less brain than many of you here!

    Fox has just gone back to promos for the deadly balcony collapse in Berkeley, CA. Not because they love the residents of the People’s Republic of Berkeley. Presumably, because vics were primarily Irish college students here for the summer.

  158. 158.

    ruemara

    June 18, 2015 at 9:41 am

    @Knowbody: Fuck you. Fuck your face. Fuck your life.

  159. 159.

    Paul in KY

    June 18, 2015 at 9:42 am

    @Zandar: Completely agree.

  160. 160.

    Gimlet

    June 18, 2015 at 9:43 am

    Next up – Pammy Geller will sponsor a draw the Charleston shooter “in action” contest outside the church itself.

  161. 161.

    Paul in KY

    June 18, 2015 at 9:43 am

    @Gindy51: Lead singer for Catfish & the Bottlemen has just about the same hair. Sorta Brian Jones style mop cut.

  162. 162.

    Paul in KY

    June 18, 2015 at 9:45 am

    @Knowbody: Fuck off & die.

  163. 163.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 9:46 am

    @Phylllis: Thought of you when I heard this story. My condolences on Mr. Pinckney. Not surprised you and he had crossed paths.

  164. 164.

    Paul in KY

    June 18, 2015 at 9:47 am

    @Elizabelle: Handgun shoved down pants, probably.

  165. 165.

    JPL

    June 18, 2015 at 9:47 am

    @ruemara: I was going to comment later that we showed tolerance in ignoring the assholes, but nonetheless, good for you.

  166. 166.

    MazeDancer

    June 18, 2015 at 9:53 am

    Suspect identified. Dylann Storm Roof. Apparently drove his own car or one connected to him. SPLC tweeted his pic:

    https://twitter.com/splcenter/status/611530999504207872

    (Two n’s in Dylann)

  167. 167.

    Paul in KY

    June 18, 2015 at 9:54 am

    @Suzanne: Holmes & Lanza are evidently classically psycho. This person seems more like a person who would have been in the SS or Freki or something like that. Mental problems, to even want to be in those kinds of organizations (IMO), but much more ‘sane’ than those 2 you mentioned.

  168. 168.

    Belafon

    June 18, 2015 at 9:55 am

    Why isn’t God stopping the bullets? Has there ever been a case of a gunman walking into a church, shooting his gun, and the bullets stop before they reach their targets?

  169. 169.

    Mark B.

    June 18, 2015 at 9:56 am

    From twitter (unconfirmed) there’s a suspect:

    https://twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/611532246210613249

    Dylann Storm Roof

    (spelling of first name weird, but I guess that’s it)

  170. 170.

    Paul in KY

    June 18, 2015 at 9:56 am

    @LAC: Probably has that covered in spades :-)

  171. 171.

    Cervantes

    June 18, 2015 at 9:58 am

    @Belafon:

    Sure.

    If I mean to shoot X but I miss and hit Y, then X is the target and Y may have stopped the bullet.

  172. 172.

    MazeDancer

    June 18, 2015 at 9:59 am

    Dylann Storm Roof was arrested in February of this year: http://www.gotmugshots.com/arrests/dylann_storm_roof_id_10516305.html

  173. 173.

    Joey Maloney

    June 18, 2015 at 10:02 am

    @JPL: The Memphis church is a Missionary Baptist in Orange Mound, a black and low-income area. I saw an unsourced claim on Twitter that the shooting was from a domestic dispute nearby. So who knows.

  174. 174.

    jon

    June 18, 2015 at 10:02 am

    An actual instance of the oppression of American Christians, and our Christian right doesn’t notice.

    I guess it has to involve a bakery to be legitimate oppression.

  175. 175.

    Cervantes

    June 18, 2015 at 10:06 am

    @jon:

    An actual instance of the oppression of American Christians

    But I doubt he selected his victims for their religion.

    One might as accurately call it the oppression of human beings, for they were that, too.

  176. 176.

    Suzanne

    June 18, 2015 at 10:06 am

    @Paul in KY: Well, we’ll find out more. I’m just noting that it is not unreasonable to see someone who commits a mass shooting and to speculate that they may suffer from mental illness. I agree that we use that fact too often as an othering technique, when typically their actions are different by degree but not by type than the other “sane” people around them.

    Again, this is not to say that his end goal was not to commit terrorism and to instill mass terror. He is a terrorist. I just think it’s worth looking at all the angles when something like this occurs, because it’s typically a mix of many factors, mental health being one, racism being one, and access to weapons being another. If it was only about race, then more racists would commit acts like these.

  177. 177.

    debbie

    June 18, 2015 at 10:10 am

    @Paul in KY:

    Holmes & Lanza are evidently classically psycho.

    What drove Adam Lanza, if you read the report, was fury at his mother’s decision to move them to Washington State. He was so angry that he’d stopped eating.

    Rage is still the issue.

    @rikyrah:

    A white man shooting up a historic black church in prayer is terrorism.

    Driving home from a doctor’s appointment just now, I listened to Glen Beck differentiating this act from the “classic” Muslim terrorist in that the Muslim’s intent is to terrify everyone and he’s not sure if this was this shooter’s intent or if he was just angry. Jackass.

    Beck’s traveling to South Carolina tomorrow as part of his new campaign to bring the country back together (even as he makes fun of Al Sharpton’s planned journey there).

  178. 178.

    Cervantes

    June 18, 2015 at 10:10 am

    @Suzanne:

    I’m just noting that it is not unreasonable to see someone who commits a mass shooting and to speculate that they may suffer from mental illness. […] Again, this is not to say that his end goal was not to commit terrorism and to instill mass terror. He is a terrorist.

    I agree. Illness can be a fact and part (or all) of the cause without being a license to kill.

  179. 179.

    Paul in KY

    June 18, 2015 at 10:15 am

    @Suzanne: I said I think he has mental issues, just that he’s not the Lanza/Holmes (Jeff Dahmer would be another example) kind of nut (IMO).

  180. 180.

    Paul in KY

    June 18, 2015 at 10:16 am

    @debbie: Good point on what finally set him off to murder those kids. He had, I think, been nuts for years though.

  181. 181.

    debbie

    June 18, 2015 at 10:20 am

    @Paul in KY:

    He certainly wasn’t getting the help he needed.

  182. 182.

    Kryptik

    June 18, 2015 at 10:20 am

    @Suzanne:

    A big problem is our general ability as a society to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time, it seems. The need to simplify matters like this and distill it down to one source, one cause, one disease. And while that’s going to be harder to change, we can at least still keep the focus on where it needs to be. Could this guy have been mentally ill? Yes, but unless his brain chemistry changed so drastically as to render him essentially a different person than he was only, say…a few years ago, it still shouldn’t overshadow the fact that this was a blatant racial attack. But if the media are allowed to latch on primarily to the ‘mental health’ angle, we can see chances of the racial and terroristic elements of this go down the memory hole, in order to preserve the mass delusion that racism like this, white terrorism like this simply doesn’t REALLY exist.

    Unfortunately, I have the sinking feeling that our media coverage is going to do exactly that, even with outcries for justice.

  183. 183.

    PurpleGirl

    June 18, 2015 at 10:21 am

    @Knowbody: Take the quotes marks from around Tragedy because IT IS A TRAGEDY. There are now a number of people without their spouses and children without a parent. How is that not a tragedy? Yes, it must be investigated as a civil rights crime and the racist shooter must get maximum time. A stern lecture from President Obama will not help but a maximum sentence, with no parole will, no matter what the shooters age is.

    (I try not to answer UBDs but your comment hit me as being snarky and I had to let you know how this 60+ year old white woman feels. Go back under your bridge.)

  184. 184.

    debbie

    June 18, 2015 at 10:22 am

    Now Glenn Beck is saying he doesn’t think race was an issue because the shooter could have found African Americans anywhere in Charleston. He seems to be implying (as he always does) that the hate crime was against Christians, not African Americans.

  185. 185.

    Punchy

    June 18, 2015 at 10:22 am

    @Mark B.: Dude is a dead-ringer for Jim Carey’s character (Llyod?) in the first Dumb and Dumber.

  186. 186.

    MazeDancer

    June 18, 2015 at 10:22 am

    SPLC identifies patches shown on Roof’s jacket from his FaceBook pic as South Africa apartheid and White-backed Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe).

    He’s 21 years old. He’s been arrested for drug charge and trespassing. Hate gets taught. If you grow up in crazy hate how do you not get mentally affected?

  187. 187.

    The Thin Black Duke

    June 18, 2015 at 10:23 am

    @Suzanne: “If it was only about race, then more racists would commit acts like these.”

    Huh?

    They already do.

  188. 188.

    Helen

    June 18, 2015 at 10:27 am

    SCOTUSBlog just said the court is done issuing opinions for today. We won’t get the gay marriage or King decision today.

  189. 189.

    Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™

    June 18, 2015 at 10:28 am

    @The Thin Black Duke:
    yeah, i had the same thought.

  190. 190.

    Cervantes

    June 18, 2015 at 10:31 am

    @PurpleGirl:

    Take the quotes marks from around Tragedy because IT IS A TRAGEDY. There are now a number of people without their spouses and children without a parent. How is that not a tragedy?

    I doubt he or she meant to say it was not a “tragedy” (in your sense of the word, meaning a sad event).

    Seems clear to me that the following is what was meant: Either (a) reaction to the event will call it a “tragedy” (in your sense) without managing to do anything real about it; or (b) the event is not a “tragedy” (in the Greek sense) because it was not inevitable: better laws we could have enacted would have prevented this kind of thing from happening as frequently as it does.

  191. 191.

    MazeDancer

    June 18, 2015 at 10:31 am

    CBS reports Roof’s uncle says Dylann got .45 calibre handgun for his birthday in April. Calls him “quiet”.

  192. 192.

    Cervantes

    June 18, 2015 at 10:32 am

    @The Thin Black Duke:

    More racists commit such acts than currently do?

    Hmm …

  193. 193.

    Paul in KY

    June 18, 2015 at 10:35 am

    @debbie: His mother failed him (IMO).

  194. 194.

    Paul in KY

    June 18, 2015 at 10:37 am

    @Punchy: Haircut maybe, but this person looks ‘handsomer’ than Jim’s character, and much younger also, too.

  195. 195.

    debbie

    June 18, 2015 at 10:38 am

    @Paul in KY:

    Absolutely. Sometimes too much love is dangerous.

  196. 196.

    Betty Cracker

    June 18, 2015 at 10:38 am

    @Paul in KY: His father too. He admits it here.

  197. 197.

    Paul in KY

    June 18, 2015 at 10:38 am

    @MazeDancer: Pretty sure he grew up with some racist shits. Be very surprised if not.

  198. 198.

    celticdragonchick

    June 18, 2015 at 10:40 am

    What the everloving fuck…Steve Doocy on Fox says it is “Unbelievable” that the shooting has been called a hate crime.

    http://mediamatters.org/video/2015/06/18/foxs-steve-doocy-its-extraordinary-that-charles/204043

  199. 199.

    Mike in NC

    June 18, 2015 at 10:41 am

    It’s South Carolina, Jake. Leads the country in domestic violence against women. Guns are worshipped as much as God (Google photos of Nikki Haley lovingly fondling a shiny assault rifle). Confederate flag beach towels are a big seller. FOX News blaring from TVs in every airport, hospital, and Best Buy store.

    But agree the media will pitch it as terror against Christians who merely happened to be unwhite.

  200. 200.

    Botsplainer

    June 18, 2015 at 10:42 am

    That middle name of Storm is a giveaway to me, along with the South African apartheid flag patch. I spotted that immediately.

  201. 201.

    The Thin Black Duke

    June 18, 2015 at 10:43 am

    @Cervantes: I’m sorry, but when I see more angry white guys openly carrying guns around and the law is saying that’s it’s O.K., then it’s in my best interests to pay attention to what’s going on, y’know? I don’t have the luxury to think of it as an abstract philosophical argument.

  202. 202.

    Suzanne

    June 18, 2015 at 10:46 am

    @The Thin Black Duke: The vast majority of racists don’t commit murder, which indicates that racism alone doesn’t create murder.

  203. 203.

    Cervantes

    June 18, 2015 at 10:47 am

    @The Thin Black Duke:

    It’s not a matter of abstract philosophical arguments. I was simply answering your question to Suzanne (and I quote: “Huh?”)

    You’re welcome, by the way.

  204. 204.

    WaterGirl

    June 18, 2015 at 10:47 am

    @Botsplainer: The patch I get, but what’s the significance of “Storm”?

  205. 205.

    bemused

    June 18, 2015 at 10:48 am

    @MazeDancer:

    I read that his most recent arrest for drugs was in March and his father gives him a gun for his 21st birthday in April. I’ve got a lot of questions about the father.

  206. 206.

    Cervantes

    June 18, 2015 at 10:49 am

    @WaterGirl:

    As in “Front” — is the implication, I’m guessing.

  207. 207.

    WaterGirl

    June 18, 2015 at 10:50 am

    @bemused: Un-fucking-believable.

  208. 208.

    The Thin Black Duke

    June 18, 2015 at 10:51 am

    @Suzanne: But by making access to guns easier than ever before, it’s not unreasonable to speculate that angry white guys with guns will find it easier to act out on their violent fantasies than ever before. Especially when some people find it almost impossible to say “white terrorism”.

  209. 209.

    debbie

    June 18, 2015 at 10:53 am

    He’s 21 years old and he’s already been arrested twice as an adult? How is that not a marker of someone dangerous?

    http://egbertowillies.com/2015/06/18/killer-idd-in-ame-church-massacre-in-south-carolina/?utm_campaign=coschedule&utm_source=facebook_page&utm_medium=EgbertoWillies.com&utm_content=Killer%20ID%27d%20in%20Emmanuel%20AME%20Church%20massacre%20in%20South%20Carolina

  210. 210.

    debbie

    June 18, 2015 at 10:54 am

    @Cervantes:

    Or Trooper.

  211. 211.

    The Thin Black Duke

    June 18, 2015 at 10:54 am

    @Cervantes: I’m sorry, but I have no idea what you’re trying to say.

  212. 212.

    Cervantes

    June 18, 2015 at 10:58 am

    @The Thin Black Duke:

    No problem. And for what it’s worth, I agree with your last comment above — nor can I imagine anyone here disagreeing.

  213. 213.

    Paul in KY

    June 18, 2015 at 11:02 am

    @Betty Cracker: Thanks for link. Lanza had a lot of rage too, besides being nuttier than a fruitcake.

  214. 214.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 11:05 am

    Anybody calling Mr. Roof a thug yet?

    Yeah. I thought not.

  215. 215.

    A guy

    June 18, 2015 at 11:06 am

    Absolutely horrible. I feel horrible for those families and that community.

  216. 216.

    Suzanne

    June 18, 2015 at 11:08 am

    @Kryptik: Agreed. My original statement was that I wish it wasn’t seen as a political statement, like taking sides, to wonder if the dude is mentally ill, and I still feel that way. I wish we could acknowledge that this is a complicated act, and that it is not diminishing its awfulness to look at it from every perspective.

  217. 217.

    Suzanne

    June 18, 2015 at 11:11 am

    @The Thin Black Duke: Truth. In my original statement, I speculated that three factors are in play here: mental illness, easy access to guns, and racism. I’m speculating, of course, as we all are at this point. Dude is absolutely a terrorist. No question.

  218. 218.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 11:11 am

    AG Loretta Lynch presser, now.

  219. 219.

    D58826

    June 18, 2015 at 11:13 am

    @The Thin Black Duke: And throw in way to much loose talk about 2nd amendment solutions, taking the country back and watering the tree of liberty with blood from supposed responsible political leaders; it’s surprisng that this hasn’t happened more often.

    I suppose the NRA will blame the church for not having a machine gun crew guarding the entrance.

  220. 220.

    Mnemosyne (tablet)

    June 18, 2015 at 11:13 am

    @The Thin Black Duke:

    That’s what my husband is thinking, too. I really hope they catch this asshole.

  221. 221.

    scav

    June 18, 2015 at 11:15 am

    @Elizabelle: Similar side note: oddly enough, if one single detail always seems to make it into the description of the Church though (and the church has a fair bit of history), it always seems to be the association with a slave revolt. At least, that’s what I’m seeing in the text news.

  222. 222.

    bemused

    June 18, 2015 at 11:15 am

    @WaterGirl:

    Yes. I cringe thinking what else we learn about the family.

  223. 223.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 11:20 am

    @D58826: Fox was trying mightily to go with the “should pastors be armed?” and “If someone at that prayer group had a gun, could the shooter have been stopped? We will never know.” The last is almost a direct quote.

    They seem to have given up. Seeing a young white shooter kind of took the wind out of their sails. While they regroup.

    They’re discussing Scott Walker and John Kasich now.

  224. 224.

    Mark B.

    June 18, 2015 at 11:24 am

    There’s a report on Twitter that Roof has been arrested:

    https://twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/611554265925058560

  225. 225.

    Mark B.

    June 18, 2015 at 11:25 am

    @Mark B.: Confirmed:

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/dylann-roof-arrested-charleston-shooting

  226. 226.

    Mnemosyne (tablet)

    June 18, 2015 at 11:30 am

    @The Thin Black Duke:

    FWIW, I think you, Cervantes, and Suzanne are in basic agreement. Most asshole racists — even the out-and-proud neo-Nazis and KKK — don’t commit mass murder these days. It’s both/and — you have a racist asshole with access to guns who is also mentally unstable, and that witches’ brew leads to horrors like this.

  227. 227.

    VFX Lurker

    June 18, 2015 at 11:35 am

    @Elizabelle:

    I’m serious about Fox being more restful viewing in the morning. Blue backgrounds, and they’re not shouting at you. Kind of normal broadcasting, from the 1980s, etc. Retro.

    That could register on some level with channel surfers, and then they get sucked in by the derp.

    I remember reading/hearing somewhere (Daily Show?) that Fox News will run a block of news, followed by a block of bullshi–I mean, “opinion.” The news programs allow them to call themselves a news channel.

    However, Media Matters noted in 2009 that the “news programs” on Fox echo the talking points of its opinion shows. Maybe the news programs on Fox have cleaned up since then.

  228. 228.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 11:41 am

    Zandar has a fresh thread up on the Charleston murders and the shooter.

  229. 229.

    D58826

    June 18, 2015 at 11:42 am

    @Elizabelle: FSM help us. IF the shooter hadn’t been armed …. but that is to simple a solution

  230. 230.

    Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™

    June 18, 2015 at 11:43 am

    @Mnemosyne (tablet):

    Agree with your comment, however most angry and mentally ill not racists also do not commit mass murder either.

    Walking into a black church sitting down for an hour and murdering nine african americans is an act of terror against the african american community full stop.

    As a member of that community it seems that far too often the media among others try to switch the subject away from terrorism by white supremacists as quickly as possible. It is getting tiresome.

    One might argue that racism is itself a sign of mental illness, but we are unlikely to be seeing or having that conversation
    …

  231. 231.

    Suzanne

    June 18, 2015 at 12:06 pm

    @Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: Among mass shooters, a much-higher-than-average percentage of them have some sort of diagnosable mental illness—in fact, many of them displayed a lot of warning signs. They’re also statistically likely to be white dudes.

  232. 232.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 12:07 pm

    @Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: It is going to be fascinating to see how this is covered.

    It’s time to have a discussion on racism. Beyond time. But will it happen now?

    (And how much will they try to blame all racism on people in the South? Because it would seem to be a national disorder. Witness politics, 2008-present, especially.)

  233. 233.

    Elizabelle

    June 18, 2015 at 12:11 pm

    @Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™:

    Aha. NYTimes Motherlode blog goes there:

    With Charleston Shooting, a Time to Stop Teaching Children About the ‘History’ of Racial Violence

    Because it’s still with us. And let’s not pretend otherwise.

  234. 234.

    planetjanet

    June 18, 2015 at 12:36 pm

    @Kryptik: Precisely. Very eloquently said. Don’t dilute the primary factor of racism here that is imbued throughout our society in lesser degrees. It allows people to ignore the real problem.

  235. 235.

    planetjanet

    June 18, 2015 at 12:42 pm

    @The Thin Black Duke: Stormfront is a white supremacist group.

  236. 236.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    June 18, 2015 at 1:18 pm

    @Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™:

    There is apparently some sociological evidence that “real” (ahem) terrorists prey on the mentally ill by convincing/coercing people who are already suicidal into becoming suicide bombers. But since our media is unwilling to even think about the possibility that maybe mentally ill people are being exploited in the Middle East, I tend to agree that having the media jump to “mental illness” as soon as a white dude kills multiple people is really fucking irritating.

    IIRC, the vast majority of the evidence was that the guy from Baltimore who killed those two NYPD cops was off his rocker, but of course the media coverage was all about how the protesters “made” him do it and not the fact that he was Looney Tunes. Different races, different standards.

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