Nine people are reported dead from a terrorist attack at a black church in Charleston, South Carolina. Among the dead are a reverend and a State Senator was assassinated, as well:
Nine people were shot, some fatally, inside one of Charleston’s oldest and most well known black churches tonight. A bomb threat complicated the investigation and prompted police to ask nearby residents to evacuate.
Reporters and other onlookers huddled at the scene awaiting details on what could prove to be one of the worst mass shootings in South Carolina history.
Description of the perp was a slender white guy with a shaved head. Horrible.
from what I understand, the Reverend was the State Senator…. CNN doing their usual crappy job covering it, I’ve gone over the BBC News to reduce the usual US media biases and speculation that ensue
Man, it’s going to take quite a while to come up with rap sheets on nine victims.
MSNBC is no better.
That is why I’m on twitter. smdh.
I like Benjy Sarlin, but right now him and the anchor on MSNBC are covering this like it’s just another “random act of violence” rather than a case of probably domestic terror.
Sarlin saying people are “fed up about the violence” as if the people are talking about gang violence or random shooting…smdh
Tweet of God retweeted:
Yes, I’m sure that’s it.
Why is Lindsey Graham using a pseudonym?
If he isn’t already playing a tune, Nero is damn sure tuning his fiddle….
Damnit. RIP. I’m gonna have to go to bed soon, but my heart is heavy. I’m gonna try to stay on twitter until the WH issues a statment.
Flipping between CNN and MSNBC and not one mention of “terrorism.”
And the woman anchoring MSNBC is a real idiot. She’s asking–without apparent guile–if “anything in South Carolina history might have prompted this or be connected to it.”
Hmmm…South Carolina…welp, nothing comes to mind! Lone killer! Mental illness!
And for a situation where a mass murderer is on the loose, I’m seeing an awful lot of fat fucking cops standing around doing jack shit.
Compare/contrast with the Boston bombing. They closed a fucking city.
Not a terrorist attack. The second amendment hero was white, which means it could not have been terrorism. There’s a good chance he was a cop who was in fear for his life.
James E Powell
Governor who flies Confederate flag at SC capitol says “we’ll never understand what motivates” #Charlestown massacre
Chase Madar on Twitter
I wish it wasn’t a political act to wonder if this person was mentally ill. Because he probably is. Mental illness is incredibly common, and guns are incredibly common.
Acts of terror, like this one, are a predictable outcome when we don’t treat the mentally ill, we provide unfettered access to guns, and we fill the public discourse with racism, sexism, and fearmongering.
@James E Powell: Isn’t that just fucking great? “We’ll never understand….mental health issues…blather, blather….” and they don’t have the faintest fucking idea who this guy is? Our Liberal Media isn’t exactly doing any heavy lifting here, either; what might be echoing from South Carolina’s past here? It is a mystery! If there weren’t dead and injured human beings here, it would sound like a Paddy Chayefsky script.
@James E Powell: speaking of which is they dare to fly the damn confederate flag at half mast tomorrow, I’ll fuckin’ be willing to drive to SC to burn that bish down.
Sometimes I wonder if this country will ever really heal from the self-inflicted wound of slavery.
Apparently the gunman entered the sanctuary, sat down for the bible study awhile before opening fire.
They welcomed the sumabitch in and he massacred 8 in the sanctuary and 1 died on way to hospital.
Give the grieving some space.
Hearing that it was Denmark Vesey’s church, that his sons rebuilt. Wow.
What the Fuck. Horrible.
Good point about Boston.
Why are reports oddly and somewhat specific about the shooters age?
According to the comments at the link guns would have prevented this. Personally I think tax cuts would have worked better. Actually, tax cuts for guns would solve all of the worlds problems and everyone would get a pony.
@JordanRules: I noticed that too. The one person detained was also 21. I can see it now; someone will recognize the description and then go, “he’s 22 so it must not be him” and not call the police..
@JordanRules: I suspect they may have some idea about the shooter just won’t release until they apprehend him
@lamh36: Yup. I think so too. Not sure about that strategy. Obviously I’m not an expert and I lack f*cking trust with these folks.
Major Major Major Major
As a mentally ill person (cyclothymia), I f*cking loathe people who lump us all together.
Also this is horrible. And I was hoping to have a nice night’s sleep.
@James E Powell: WHAT???? WHAT???? WHAT THE FUCKING WHAT?
I think the issue is the media is already launching a Hinckley-style defense of the shooting before the suspect is apprehended by speculating he is mentally ill.
There’s no call for it right now.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
I’d try to list all of the predictable things people are going to do and say in the aftermath of this but I don’t know whether I have the heart for it right now. I do know that whatever else comes out if this, if anybody tries to either talk about race in America or about guns, Republicans will come out of the woodwork to tell us that we mustn’t “politicize” the tragedy. Sometimes I feel sick of this country…
What a hideous, senseless tragedy. More proof that we need sensible gun control. I’m sure that South Carolina’s brilliant, closeted Senator Lindsey Graham will blame the victims by asserting that “moral decay” caused the shooting (a code phrase for liberalism) and recommend tax cuts for the wealthy as the solution.
Has anyone sent a congratulatory note to Fox ‘News’, especially Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly, Megyn Kelly etc?
The Georgia Department of Driver Services confirmed Wednesday that it had ordered the removal of a bright yellow “Illegal Alien Hunting Permit” sticker from the cubicle of one of its investigators.
The sticker also declares that, as a “Hunting Permit,” it may be used “under the influence of alcohol.”
“May hunt day or night with or without dogs around borders, poultry, plants, onion fields, farms, citrus groves, construction sites, goats, low riders, tunnels and packing plants,” the sticker continues. “May use Coronas, Jose Cuervo and burritos as bait. No bag limit — Tagging not required.”
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
“Sometimes”? You haven’t been paying attention.
(Although I’d change “of” to “for,” but that’s personal preference.)
If a neutron-bomb-like device were to wipe out the top 20 or so layers of Rethug “management” in this country (figuratively speaking), it could only be to America’s benefit.
“We’re shocked — SHOCKED — that something like that goes on here!”
I’m so sad and depressed about this. Fucking racist trash everywhere, in a state awash with guns. And no real hope on the horizon. One thinks “the younger kids are better, less racist, less intolerant”… the shooter was 21.
Tough news. So very disturbing.
@bago: Unfortunately, that can never happen anymore. Here or anywhere else that is wired.
Should have kept the sticker and removed the investigator.
@sparrow: It seems to me very clear that the younger folks are better at this. Please don’t take the actions of one, or over the course of time other young folks, as an indictment of a whole class of people. Don’t give in to the poisons of anger and despair.
IIRC, South Carolina prosecutors actually seemed to do OK when it came to unjustified cop shootings. I hope the catch the guy soon.
Looks like they have some video.
I know this is going to sound extremely radical, but does anyone else think this event shows that, you know, racism might still be a problem in this country?
I hope John Roberts gets the memo.
twitter via lamh36:
I think a white man killing 9 black people in a church already qualifies as acting out. At this point any actions taken by the community in response are just that – a response.
That’s a hell of a thing to wake up this morning.
A couple of unconfirmed reports that the shooter purposefully left one woman alive and unharmed in order to bear witness to this slaughter.
Yes, this was a right-wing domestic terrorism attack. Period.
Younger people, you mean like 20 year olds? Er, no sadly
I’m with Smedly & SFAW – sick at heart about the conditions we have made here.
@lamh36: “How many blacks have to be shot by skinheads in the South, before they lower the Confederate flag all the way?” is supposed to be one of those black humor what-ifs.
These terrorists are gonna put The Onion out of business.
Mr. Roberts has never witnessed any racism so probably no affect on him – hell he even has to work with a ni . . . ni . . . knee-grow so that proves racism is dead, we even elected one of them boys as President.
I have stopped reading so many comment sections because the white cluelessness/repressed racism just makes me ill. I can’t imagine what it must be like to see that shit & not have my advantage as a white guy.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Zandar: Yes, this was a right-wing domestic terrorism attack. Period.
I’ve seen a report that the FBI agrees with you.
The police have released surveillance video & photos. Young white guy, head is not shaved. They believe he’s left the area. Clementa Pinckney, the pastor and state senator who was killed, served from Allendale, SC, one the ten poorest counties in the US. I used to work with him when I worked in Allendale. He was a good guy, definitely committed to improving the lives of his constituents.
I’m so very sorry.
The Thin Black Duke
You know what I’m afraid of?
I’m afraid this motherfucker is going to disappear, just like Eric Rudolph did.
Damn it, I hate this fucking country.
This is terrorism. The media, gun fetishists, and politicians are going to be spinning themselves dizzy trying to make it something else.
@Phylllis: Could be a wig too, I mean Prince Valiant hair?
Yeah that’s what I thought, too about the hair.
@The Thin Black Duke: Eric Rudolph was caught and convicted, eventually. This guy will be too.
Not that it makes anything better. But they will get him.
Maybe the car will be the clue. There are probably other surveillance images of it and the registration will lead in his direction.
The Thin Black Duke
But unfortunately, things are crazier now than it was then, y’know?
I mean, there’s a reason why you see white guys who can legally carry their guns out in public now.
That’s not an accident.
As Gil Scott-Heron so wisely observed, “It follows a scheme, if you dig what I mean.”
@lamh36: The slow “Foxification” of MSM continues, as the competition to poach Roger Ailes audience encourages all the Broadcast and Cable News (really infotainment) programs to address an old, white, audience, that starting in their youth in the seventies as been taught to fear and suspect the Angry Black person. So when something like this happens, this audience is not concerned with the victims or the social context of the crime, but with “are they coming for us in our gated communities.!!”
People like to point to mental illness as the cause for these incidents. It’s neat, it’s tidy, and it allows people (particularly 2nd Amendment lovers) to point blame at “others.”
Mental illness may be a factor in some cases, but the common denominator in every shooting incident in fact is rage. And because every single human being is capable of rage, guns have become so very dangerous. We have got to find a way to protect us from ourselves.
Is it not cowardly and obscene, going to a place of worship (church) to gun down worshippers at peace with their God? Words fail me. Is this a symptomatic vision of American Exceptionalism?
The real story here is whether black people will control themselves in the aftermath of this unfortunate, isolated incident perpetrated by a mentally ill liberal.
You know what will really help?
Another speech from Obama about this “tragedy” and a stern promise from the U.S. Attorney General that they will investigate this as a civil rights issue.
That will fix things I’m sure.
Someone on last night’s thread asked how Fox would cover last night’s massacre.
EW Jackson, black crazy ass pastor/GOP Virginia lt. governor candidate with Cuccinelli: on right now:
It’s a war on Christians.
And someone in those churches should arm themselves to defend.
Rev Clemente’s cousin was just on and said the victims had a conversation for over an hour with this terrorist before he killed then. He said “you have vilified women and taken over this country, I have to do this”.
Would someone with the keys band this lowlife motherfucker “knowbody”?
Iowa Old Lady
Honest question here: Why is there a struggle over calling this terrorism? What do various actors gain or lose by that title being applied?
Or maybe that’s too distant a question for this horrible moment. I think Suzanne’s analysis at #12 is spot on. Mix mental illness, easy access to guns, racism, and stoking of anger by politicians and media, and you get violent acts.
I’ll second that.
What tha? Christ.
My two cents
I think it was more an act of fantasy.
He knew about Wed. night church gatherings so probably raised religious. Picked blacks for victims partly because racist but more media attention with them.
Hardcore racist would be age 40 and use a bomb.
@Suzanne: Why does he have to be mentally ill? He’s a racist who picked an all Black church to target. This is not complicated.
Yeah. I actually thought it was a hat in the first pic I saw.
I hope LE can enhance those pics.
@Patricia Kayden: Agreed, that’s a bullshit way out.
How many people in their forties commit acts of terrorism? It’s a young man’s game.
@lamh36: He sat in the Bible story for one whole hour according to ABC News.
@Iowa Old Lady: the word “terrorist” is reserved for the use of Republicans and is only to be applied as they see fit.
@raven: I’ll 3rd it.
Iowa Old Lady
@Patricia Kayden: I don’t know. Killing 9 people in cold blood takes something beyond normal human nastiness. I guess it depends on how you define mental illness. I understand the issue of tarring other mentally ill people. I’ve been treated depression myself.
Shooting victim State Senator Clementa Pinckney (Pastor of the Emanuel A.M.E. Church) was campaigning earlier in the day with Hillary Clinton.
Any bets on how long until this is added to the Clinton Body Count?
The Thin Black Duke
@Patricia Kayden: Exactly.
This was a violent racist act by a violent racist asshole.
And calling it something other than what it is goddamned offensive.
Because it diminishes black people’s lives even more.
@Baud: Tell that to the KC shooter (forget his name, targeted Jews, got non-Jews but they were in front of a Jewish center so close enough) aged 78 I think.
@Patricia Kayden: That makes it so much worse to me. When I’ve attended Bible study, it’s usually a group of people who know each other well and sit and chat about their lives, work and family in addition to whatever we’re studying. It takes a real cold heart not to see the humanity of people in that situation and be able to coolly pull the trigger. Definitely a sociopath.
So many killings, I actually don’t remember that one.
Switching from Fox and Friends. Most I ever watched in my life. (12 minutes)
They’re discussing “killer balcony collapses” now. Because you know their elderly audience it out hip hopping on balconies en masse when their asses aren’t parked in front of the telly.
[ETA: or perhaps they’re actually landlords who fear being sued… fear, fear, fear….]
The news roundup of top stories: (1) white teen in Canada killed when he used app to find his missing cell phone; I forget #2, and (3) was Brian Williams — per the NY Post — has lost his gig at NBC but is going somewhere else undisclosed. [Multiple other sources report Williams is headed to MSNBC, but Fox not reporting that so its viewers can decide.]
Just switched from CNN to Fox and they’re finishing a prefilmed segment about balcony collapses and construction techniques to protect against water damage ….
Now: they are covering the Charleston shooting, big story they’ve told us about. Briefly, informed shooter is white, showed his photo. (20 secs, tops) Then: onto item about SEALS who killed Bin Laden.
The 1963 church bombing in Birmingham would be a reference point. They were all older than their 20s.
@Patricia Kayden: How about “you’re both edging to being correct”?
We’re looking at what seems to be “snowglobers”, self-referring guys (and I mean males) in a hermetically sealed environment who don’t know anything more than what they tell each other and what they get from the “talking lightbulb” of Fox News.
My wife is a psychotherapist. She considers these people like a group in desperate need of a group therapist. And none of which think they have a problem.
@Iowa Old Lady: So all throughout American history when Whites murdered Blacks via lynching, all of those Whites (including those who photographed and picknicked during the lynchings) were mentally ill?
Really? Could we please leave the mentally ill alone when someone intentionally engages in violence? It’s really unfair to mentally ill people? Is there any evidence that being mentally ill = random acts of senseless violence? I doubt it.
Shooter is thin as a reed; don’t see him carrying anything in the pic.
What weapon did he have that the Bible group did not notice, and that was capable of shooting so many before someone reached him?
@The Thin Black Duke: Yeah, I wouldn’t disagree with that either.
Just saw that the people begged him to stop as her reloaded 5 times and he said he couldn’t because “you people rape our women and are taking over the country.”
OK, I’m wrong. Terrorism is an equal opportunity endeavor.
Overland Park Jewish Community Center shooting
April 13, 2014- The suspect was later identified as 73-year-old Frazier Glenn Miller, Jr. of Aurora, Missouri, originally from North Carolina. He was a Neo-Nazi and former political candidate.
They do blur together, don’t they?
@Elizabelle: Probably a 9.
@Stacy: I thought she said he said “vilified” not raped but I could be wrong.
Fox News: DC police officer suggests first thing is checking local fast food and gas stations: he probably fueled up on something for energy.
where are the weapons? Did he stage them inside?
Guy seems familiar with the church. Did he attend previous events?
Does he have a little pouch in the photo? Is it a wig and fake nose?
Also: sweatshirt worn, and it’s 90 degrees out.
Cop: sweatshirt’s on to hide whatever’s on the white tee shirt underneath.
Sounds like he was upset with Obama as well as generally racist.
Now Fox is interviewing a white SC politician who knew the slain pastor/politician Pinckney.
Fox is heavy on the religion aspect of the attack. Pol: “Evil is in this world. Evil is real.”
It’s state senator Larry Grooms (R).
Grooms is talking now about the “politics of hate.” It’s a new thing. Not specified.
But “we need faith, we need to return to God, more than at any time in our nation’s history.”
Now on to another story. Planned terrorist attack by smiling black teen. And the NYS prison escape.
And that was the #2 most important story on the earlier roundup: shark attack on a young boy in Daytona Beach.
Gotta say this: Fox is more restful viewing, during the day. Positively relaxing, and not monofocused on the Charleston massacre.
@Patricia Kayden: Of course that was terrorism against black people, designed to keep them compliant and low on the social order. Wasn’t called that then, but we recognize it now for what it was.
But up to 1/4 of the population suffers from some mental illness at some point, and the Venn diagram of mental illness and terrorist probably overlaps a bit. It’s unfair that the focus is on the diffuse phrase “mental illness” instead of the “rage induced psychosis” that would fuel an act so vile.
And that there has been a deliberate attempt by several politicians and “news sources” to fan that rage is unconscionable.
Iowa Old Lady
I don’t think that, and I don’t believe I said that.
I think a lot of things come together in an act like this, none of them reflecting well on our culture.
Just my opinion mind you but I think the 9 dead were returned to God a little too soon.
Interesting thoughts from Chauncey Devega:
Back upstairs with more coffee:
Fox is talking about “Homegrown Terror.” Per the chyron. All right. They get it.
Oh wait. It’s about the black teenager up in NYC.
Now they’re mentioning Charleston again. So that’s a different topic. OKKKKK…
chatter, and now they’re telling us the NY Times has a new enemy.
The Navy SEALS who killed Bin Laden.
Clearly, no white guy shooting up a room full of black people is going to interfere with their planned reporting for the day …
an ad with LeBron James and then — interesting — an ad for whooping cough vaccinations clearly targeted at grandparents. Make sure your grandchild is safe.
That’s both excellent and fascinating.
Hope you’re not thinking of crossing over. You’re one of the good ones.
@OzarkHillbilly: and talking about “faith and returning to God” (which party believes that again?) isn’t called out for politicizing this tragedy, but suggesting that easy access to weapons makes massacres like this more common would be.
I say we politicize the fuck out of how no one is safe, not in school, not in church, not in court, not in your own home. Fuck the gun lobby and the rest telling us what bad manners we have for objecting to slaughter and racist dog whistling by one major political party and their enablers.
@Baud: Thank you.
No, would not cross over, but curious what they’re saying. Point is, they’re not saying much at all, and not about the precious. No one is wondering where or why the shooter has the gun …
They’re pretty much going with what they had planned. Would not be the case if we had a different type of massacre, I think, but I don’t know.
I’m serious about Fox being more restful viewing in the morning. Blue backgrounds, and they’re not shouting at you. Kind of normal broadcasting, from the 1980s, etc. Retro.
That could register on some level with channel surfers, and then they get sucked in by the derp.
Wait: no longer restful. Steve Doocy is on attack and semi-shouting.
Chyron: “Bashing our heroes.” and “Clueless Critics.”
The NYTimes (“they have an agenda”) is persecuting bin Laden SEALS.
Doocy: “Don’t you think the NYTImes wants to see SEALS prosecuted for war crimes?”
The guest does not take the bait.
Up soon: should pastors be packing guns to protect their congregations?
Good guys with guns. sigh.
@Schlemazel: Both my anecdotal experience and replicated data seem to back up the notion that the younger cohort of citizens are indeed better at this than older cohorts in this country.
This is a time of terrible news. While venting is important, even necessary, it’s also important not to give in to the despair of the time and over generalize about the bad things that are happening.
Fox: “Murder in God’s House” (chyron)
Watched news this a.m. on good morning america
George S. said the pastor had been campaigning earlier in the day with HRC.
Said there’s a good chance shooter will be caught soon.
Why are they so astonished about the “house of worship” aspect.
Didn’t 6 Sikhs get shot up in their temple in Paul Ryan’s district a few years ago? Maybe Fox was all concerned about Sikh temples too, but I don’t know …
They are masters of stage production.
Quoting the NRA again? Seriously, that is their line and how they sell the guns. I really don’t know how to attack their thinking, outside of calling them a bunch of scaredy cats.
As Megyn Kelly would say: “Those 9 people were no angels.”
PS: the shooter allowing someone to walk out and tell people what she saw there, and telling her that’s why: that’s straight out of Kill Bill, vol. 1. Speech from Uma Thurman character to the (newly one-armed) lawyer in the trunk.
@biff diggerence: They are now.
For Charleston’s Emanuel A.M.E. Church, shooting is another painful chapter in long history
By Sarah Kaplan June 18 at 5:03 AM
When a gunman opened fire on Charleston’s Emanuel A.M.E. Church Wednesday, spraying bullets into a group of worshippers gathered for a mid-week prayer meeting, it was as though history repeated itself.
This historic congregation, the oldest of its kind in the South, had already seen more than its fair share of tumult and hate. It was founded by worshippers fleeing racism and burned to the ground for its connection with a thwarted slave revolt. For years its meetings were conducted in secret to evade laws that banned all-black services. It was jolted by an earthquake in 1886. Civil rights luminaries spoke from its pulpit and lead marches from its steps. For nearly two hundred years it had been the site of struggle, resistance and change.
On Wednesday, the church was a crime scene — the street outside aglow with the flashing red lights of police cars and echoing with the screech of sirens. Nine people had been killed there, reportedly including the church’s pastor, Rev. Clementa Pinckney, though police had not confirmed his death.
“I do believe this was a hate crime,” Charleston Police Chief Greg Mullen said at a press conference early Thursday morning.
To those watching in Charleston and from afar, it was devastating.
“It’s not just a church. It’s also a symbol … of black freedom,” said Robert Greene, who studies the 20th century South at the University of South Carolina. “That’s why so many folks are so upset tonight, because it’s a church that represents so much about the rich history and tradition of African Americans in Charleston.”
In Charleston, the church is affectionately known as “Mother Emanuel,” a nod to its age and its eminence in the community. It is a place people take pride in, said Rev. Stephen Singleton, who was pastor there from 2006 to 2010 — all soaring ceilings and fine pinewood floors, with an antique pipe organ that had been shipped from Europe more than a century ago.
“They’re just God-fearing people,” Singleton said of his former congregation. “People who lived in modesty in light of the history of the congregation they called home.”
That history is a long and storied one. The congregation was founded in the era of slavery by Morris Brown, a founding pastor of the African Methodist Episcopal Church. In 1816, frustrated with the racism he encountered in Charleston’s segregated churches, Brown decided to form a Church of his own. About 4,000 parishioners followed him — more than 75 percent of city’s black community, according to a history published by the College of Charleston.
From the beginning, the congregation was a focal point of community organizing and anti-slavery activism — provoking fears and intense distrust among the city’s white population. According to a PBS documentary, white Charlestonians constantly monitored the church, sometimes disrupting services and arresting worshipers.
I thought a white guy shot a bunch of white people I church in Texas a few years ago. I’ll have to hunt for the details on Google. Might be hard to find amongst all the other mass shooting stories . . .
Nothing good about it, but Morning, Everyone :(
The church is also “on” Calhoun Street and next to a public square with a statue glorifying the great man John C Calhoun himself. If they want to make something of it.
According to a tweet shown on DK, the shooter said “You rape our women and are taking over our country & you have to go.” He’s probably not listening to NPR.
Talk about Fox sticking with its planned programming:
Fox is interviewing Rand Paul about allowing pilots to carry guns in the cockpit. Rand would feel safer if there was a sticker on the cockpit door “we are 100% armed” vs. the 10% armed now.
This, the day after a gun massacre.
Yeah, you want to see a gun battle in an enclosed space. With avionics equipment.
NOTHING BUT PREMEDITATED MURDER!!
@Elizabelle: What could possibly go wrong?
Fox: shooter reloaded five times, per 3 survivors.
SO: if someone had a gun, could the shooter have been stopped? “We may never know.”
They don’t show the shooter’s pic much. Shame, because would guess their audience is more likely to identify the shooter than many channels …..
Fox did report the DOJ has opened a hate crime investigation.
Description of the perp was a slender white guy with a shaved head.
Is this another Southerner who thinks the Civil War never ended?
@raven: I was wrong.
@OzarkHillbilly: Agree w your earlier comment about the 9 souls returned to the Lord too soon.
Fox: Bill Hemmer: “It could have been an act of race. It could have been an act of religion ….”
Good. Nutley NJ cop brings up the white supremacy possibility and that this could get reclassified as domestic terrorism.
Fox news blonde: no reaction. Asks immediately about the sweatshirt.
Fox blonde: ” it’s possible this person has a vendetta.”
next segment: Bill Hemmer, talking to another white SC pol who knew Mr. Pinckney.
Hemmer: “Dark day. Where the devil was doing his work.”
White shooter. It’s the devil, I tell you.
@Belafon: CBS Atlanta has the same quote. It is a a hate crime but it is clear that it’s a case of domestic terrorism, also.
@Elizabelle: You are a brave soul. You could watch everyday and keep us informed about what the devil is saying.
@Elizabelle: I wonder if he had more than one gun, keeping people from fleeing while he was reloading. The fact that people were trying to talk him down while this was happening was pretty brave.
A friend of mine carries her gun everywhere she goes. she would have been shot first.
Once again a congratulatory note is in order for the five conservative justices who invented an individual right to keep and bear arms.
Thank you, Clarence (the godfather of this horror).
Thank you, Antonin, for your unwavering partisanship and hypocrisy.
Thank you, John, your leadership is invaluable.
Thank you, Sam, you’re nothing if not a tool of the Right.
And finally, thank you, Mr. Swing Vote Kennedy, your votes make so much possible.
STEVE HUFF @SteveHuff
Fellow white folk: do not allow anyone to equivocate on Charleston. A white man shooting up a historic black church in prayer is terrorism.
Skillfully veering it away from the domestic terrorism angle. Making it personal instead. I really think Roger Ailes or some other producer talks into their ear bud to suggest talking points.
I remember Rosie O’Donnell saying that Elizabeth Hasselback, during their debates on The View; the producer would sit with Elizabeth before air-time and carefully go over talking points.
I despair. I really do.
@rikyrah: “Mother Emanuel.”
Poignant. Thanks for link. Interesting article.
@Patricia Kayden: He doesn’t “have” to be mentally ill, but he probably is. From what I understand, the majority of mass shooters are mentally ill. James Holmes, Jared Loughner, Adam Lanza, that dude in Santa Barbara, etc. Murder due to rage isn’t rational when it’s random, which this is.
None of that is to say that this is not an act of terror. It absolutely is. I know the tendency is going to be to “other” this person if it does turn out that he’s mentally ill, and we should not do that. But we have done a shitty job as a society treating those with mental illness, and stigmatizing them, and putting them in jail instead of treatment, as well. So I would not be surprised if this man had shown signs of mental illness which had been ignored.
Again, none of that is to say that this is not an act of terror.
Clear as day.
No question about it — unless one is playing despicable games.
@Germy Shoemangler: Not that skillfully, cuz it was pretty obvious.
It’s another universe, and not a happy one.
According to the NYTimes, shots were fired at a church in Memphis. There’s little information so far on the local Memphis news stations but there were no injuries. It appeared to be a drive by shooting.
@Suzanne: You left out the Boston brothers. Mentally ill to leave a bomb next to a child?
911 pilot. Mentally ill to fly into a skyscraper?
@Germy Shoemangler: It’s going to be interesting to see what happens to FOX after Ruperts son’s take over. Not only are his son’s not right wing, neither is his daughter.
@JPL: Not up to that assignment. But curious what Fox would do today.
They are reporting the basics, but loading in lots of extra stuff too (war on Christians! A good guy with a gun could have stopped this! — look over there for “homegrown terrorism” — it’s only homegrown Muslims …)
In event links are helpful: here’s that NYTimes story this week about rightwing terror groups being on police radar screens.
The Other Terror Threat.
Authors: Charles Kurzman teaches sociology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. David Schanzer is director of the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security at Duke University.
@Belafon: I’m very curious about that. Are they really so not right wing? There’s so much disinformation out there.
Will Roger Ailes rage quit? Will Megyn Kelly become Rachel Maddow suddenly? Some commenters have said the brothers and daughters are first and foremost about the bottom line. And if that means the successful house that Roger Ailes built, they won’t disrupt it.
I’m curious to know what you and others think. It’s an important topic. Because fox news reporting on this church massacre determines how their audience of frightened ‘muricans will think about the shooting. Fox shapes opinion unfortunately.
@Knowbody: you know what would really help? You not procreating.
@Germy Shoemangler: Fox has provided the barest facts; they’re fitting Charleston story in with their other news.
They have not gone wall to wall with their coverage, as MSNBC and CNN have.
Tells us they know this story could be problematic for the Fox News World view.
They are really using an attack on religion as their squid ink of the day.
The hosts rebuttal seems to be “race? Or religion?”
@Elizabelle: You really shouldn’t watch too much of that shit. It will make your brain leak out of your ears.
@Germy Shoemangler: The short answer is: FOX News is a massive ship and will not turn quickly. I suspect we’ll start hearing more reporting about the effects of climate change and how shifting our energy consumption to renewables is good for national security since Rupert’s children consider themselves environmentalists.
@El Caganer: Agreed. And I start out with less brain than many of you here!
Fox has just gone back to promos for the deadly balcony collapse in Berkeley, CA. Not because they love the residents of the People’s Republic of Berkeley. Presumably, because vics were primarily Irish college students here for the summer.
@Knowbody: Fuck you. Fuck your face. Fuck your life.
Paul in KY
@Zandar: Completely agree.
Next up – Pammy Geller will sponsor a draw the Charleston shooter “in action” contest outside the church itself.
Paul in KY
@Gindy51: Lead singer for Catfish & the Bottlemen has just about the same hair. Sorta Brian Jones style mop cut.
Paul in KY
@Knowbody: Fuck off & die.
@Phylllis: Thought of you when I heard this story. My condolences on Mr. Pinckney. Not surprised you and he had crossed paths.
Paul in KY
@Elizabelle: Handgun shoved down pants, probably.
@ruemara: I was going to comment later that we showed tolerance in ignoring the assholes, but nonetheless, good for you.
Suspect identified. Dylann Storm Roof. Apparently drove his own car or one connected to him. SPLC tweeted his pic:
(Two n’s in Dylann)
Paul in KY
@Suzanne: Holmes & Lanza are evidently classically psycho. This person seems more like a person who would have been in the SS or Freki or something like that. Mental problems, to even want to be in those kinds of organizations (IMO), but much more ‘sane’ than those 2 you mentioned.
Why isn’t God stopping the bullets? Has there ever been a case of a gunman walking into a church, shooting his gun, and the bullets stop before they reach their targets?
From twitter (unconfirmed) there’s a suspect:
Dylann Storm Roof
(spelling of first name weird, but I guess that’s it)
Paul in KY
@LAC: Probably has that covered in spades :-)
If I mean to shoot X but I miss and hit Y, then X is the target and Y may have stopped the bullet.
Dylann Storm Roof was arrested in February of this year: http://www.gotmugshots.com/arrests/dylann_storm_roof_id_10516305.html
@JPL: The Memphis church is a Missionary Baptist in Orange Mound, a black and low-income area. I saw an unsourced claim on Twitter that the shooting was from a domestic dispute nearby. So who knows.
An actual instance of the oppression of American Christians, and our Christian right doesn’t notice.
I guess it has to involve a bakery to be legitimate oppression.
But I doubt he selected his victims for their religion.
One might as accurately call it the oppression of human beings, for they were that, too.
@Paul in KY: Well, we’ll find out more. I’m just noting that it is not unreasonable to see someone who commits a mass shooting and to speculate that they may suffer from mental illness. I agree that we use that fact too often as an othering technique, when typically their actions are different by degree but not by type than the other “sane” people around them.
Again, this is not to say that his end goal was not to commit terrorism and to instill mass terror. He is a terrorist. I just think it’s worth looking at all the angles when something like this occurs, because it’s typically a mix of many factors, mental health being one, racism being one, and access to weapons being another. If it was only about race, then more racists would commit acts like these.
@Paul in KY:
What drove Adam Lanza, if you read the report, was fury at his mother’s decision to move them to Washington State. He was so angry that he’d stopped eating.
Rage is still the issue.
Driving home from a doctor’s appointment just now, I listened to Glen Beck differentiating this act from the “classic” Muslim terrorist in that the Muslim’s intent is to terrify everyone and he’s not sure if this was this shooter’s intent or if he was just angry. Jackass.
Beck’s traveling to South Carolina tomorrow as part of his new campaign to bring the country back together (even as he makes fun of Al Sharpton’s planned journey there).
I agree. Illness can be a fact and part (or all) of the cause without being a license to kill.
Paul in KY
@Suzanne: I said I think he has mental issues, just that he’s not the Lanza/Holmes (Jeff Dahmer would be another example) kind of nut (IMO).
Paul in KY
@debbie: Good point on what finally set him off to murder those kids. He had, I think, been nuts for years though.
@Paul in KY:
He certainly wasn’t getting the help he needed.
A big problem is our general ability as a society to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time, it seems. The need to simplify matters like this and distill it down to one source, one cause, one disease. And while that’s going to be harder to change, we can at least still keep the focus on where it needs to be. Could this guy have been mentally ill? Yes, but unless his brain chemistry changed so drastically as to render him essentially a different person than he was only, say…a few years ago, it still shouldn’t overshadow the fact that this was a blatant racial attack. But if the media are allowed to latch on primarily to the ‘mental health’ angle, we can see chances of the racial and terroristic elements of this go down the memory hole, in order to preserve the mass delusion that racism like this, white terrorism like this simply doesn’t REALLY exist.
Unfortunately, I have the sinking feeling that our media coverage is going to do exactly that, even with outcries for justice.
@Knowbody: Take the quotes marks from around Tragedy because IT IS A TRAGEDY. There are now a number of people without their spouses and children without a parent. How is that not a tragedy? Yes, it must be investigated as a civil rights crime and the racist shooter must get maximum time. A stern lecture from President Obama will not help but a maximum sentence, with no parole will, no matter what the shooters age is.
(I try not to answer UBDs but your comment hit me as being snarky and I had to let you know how this 60+ year old white woman feels. Go back under your bridge.)
Now Glenn Beck is saying he doesn’t think race was an issue because the shooter could have found African Americans anywhere in Charleston. He seems to be implying (as he always does) that the hate crime was against Christians, not African Americans.
@Mark B.: Dude is a dead-ringer for Jim Carey’s character (Llyod?) in the first Dumb and Dumber.
SPLC identifies patches shown on Roof’s jacket from his FaceBook pic as South Africa apartheid and White-backed Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe).
He’s 21 years old. He’s been arrested for drug charge and trespassing. Hate gets taught. If you grow up in crazy hate how do you not get mentally affected?
The Thin Black Duke
@Suzanne: “If it was only about race, then more racists would commit acts like these.”
They already do.
SCOTUSBlog just said the court is done issuing opinions for today. We won’t get the gay marriage or King decision today.
@The Thin Black Duke:
yeah, i had the same thought.
I doubt he or she meant to say it was not a “tragedy” (in your sense of the word, meaning a sad event).
Seems clear to me that the following is what was meant: Either (a) reaction to the event will call it a “tragedy” (in your sense) without managing to do anything real about it; or (b) the event is not a “tragedy” (in the Greek sense) because it was not inevitable: better laws we could have enacted would have prevented this kind of thing from happening as frequently as it does.
CBS reports Roof’s uncle says Dylann got .45 calibre handgun for his birthday in April. Calls him “quiet”.
@The Thin Black Duke:
More racists commit such acts than currently do?
Paul in KY
@debbie: His mother failed him (IMO).
Paul in KY
@Punchy: Haircut maybe, but this person looks ‘handsomer’ than Jim’s character, and much younger also, too.
@Paul in KY:
Absolutely. Sometimes too much love is dangerous.
@Paul in KY: His father too. He admits it here.
Paul in KY
@MazeDancer: Pretty sure he grew up with some racist shits. Be very surprised if not.
What the everloving fuck…Steve Doocy on Fox says it is “Unbelievable” that the shooting has been called a hate crime.
Mike in NC
It’s South Carolina, Jake. Leads the country in domestic violence against women. Guns are worshipped as much as God (Google photos of Nikki Haley lovingly fondling a shiny assault rifle). Confederate flag beach towels are a big seller. FOX News blaring from TVs in every airport, hospital, and Best Buy store.
But agree the media will pitch it as terror against Christians who merely happened to be unwhite.
That middle name of Storm is a giveaway to me, along with the South African apartheid flag patch. I spotted that immediately.
The Thin Black Duke
@Cervantes: I’m sorry, but when I see more angry white guys openly carrying guns around and the law is saying that’s it’s O.K., then it’s in my best interests to pay attention to what’s going on, y’know? I don’t have the luxury to think of it as an abstract philosophical argument.
@The Thin Black Duke: The vast majority of racists don’t commit murder, which indicates that racism alone doesn’t create murder.
@The Thin Black Duke:
It’s not a matter of abstract philosophical arguments. I was simply answering your question to Suzanne (and I quote: “Huh?”)
You’re welcome, by the way.
@Botsplainer: The patch I get, but what’s the significance of “Storm”?
I read that his most recent arrest for drugs was in March and his father gives him a gun for his 21st birthday in April. I’ve got a lot of questions about the father.
As in “Front” — is the implication, I’m guessing.
The Thin Black Duke
@Suzanne: But by making access to guns easier than ever before, it’s not unreasonable to speculate that angry white guys with guns will find it easier to act out on their violent fantasies than ever before. Especially when some people find it almost impossible to say “white terrorism”.
He’s 21 years old and he’s already been arrested twice as an adult? How is that not a marker of someone dangerous?
The Thin Black Duke
@Cervantes: I’m sorry, but I have no idea what you’re trying to say.
@The Thin Black Duke:
No problem. And for what it’s worth, I agree with your last comment above — nor can I imagine anyone here disagreeing.
Paul in KY
@Betty Cracker: Thanks for link. Lanza had a lot of rage too, besides being nuttier than a fruitcake.
Anybody calling Mr. Roof a thug yet?
Yeah. I thought not.
Absolutely horrible. I feel horrible for those families and that community.
@Kryptik: Agreed. My original statement was that I wish it wasn’t seen as a political statement, like taking sides, to wonder if the dude is mentally ill, and I still feel that way. I wish we could acknowledge that this is a complicated act, and that it is not diminishing its awfulness to look at it from every perspective.
@The Thin Black Duke: Truth. In my original statement, I speculated that three factors are in play here: mental illness, easy access to guns, and racism. I’m speculating, of course, as we all are at this point. Dude is absolutely a terrorist. No question.
AG Loretta Lynch presser, now.
@The Thin Black Duke: And throw in way to much loose talk about 2nd amendment solutions, taking the country back and watering the tree of liberty with blood from supposed responsible political leaders; it’s surprisng that this hasn’t happened more often.
I suppose the NRA will blame the church for not having a machine gun crew guarding the entrance.
@The Thin Black Duke:
That’s what my husband is thinking, too. I really hope they catch this asshole.
@Elizabelle: Similar side note: oddly enough, if one single detail always seems to make it into the description of the Church though (and the church has a fair bit of history), it always seems to be the association with a slave revolt. At least, that’s what I’m seeing in the text news.
Yes. I cringe thinking what else we learn about the family.
@D58826: Fox was trying mightily to go with the “should pastors be armed?” and “If someone at that prayer group had a gun, could the shooter have been stopped? We will never know.” The last is almost a direct quote.
They seem to have given up. Seeing a young white shooter kind of took the wind out of their sails. While they regroup.
They’re discussing Scott Walker and John Kasich now.
There’s a report on Twitter that Roof has been arrested:
@Mark B.: Confirmed:
@The Thin Black Duke:
FWIW, I think you, Cervantes, and Suzanne are in basic agreement. Most asshole racists — even the out-and-proud neo-Nazis and KKK — don’t commit mass murder these days. It’s both/and — you have a racist asshole with access to guns who is also mentally unstable, and that witches’ brew leads to horrors like this.
I remember reading/hearing somewhere (Daily Show?) that Fox News will run a block of news, followed by a block of bullshi–I mean, “opinion.” The news programs allow them to call themselves a news channel.
However, Media Matters noted in 2009 that the “news programs” on Fox echo the talking points of its opinion shows. Maybe the news programs on Fox have cleaned up since then.
Zandar has a fresh thread up on the Charleston murders and the shooter.
@Elizabelle: FSM help us. IF the shooter hadn’t been armed …. but that is to simple a solution
Agree with your comment, however most angry and mentally ill not racists also do not commit mass murder either.
Walking into a black church sitting down for an hour and murdering nine african americans is an act of terror against the african american community full stop.
As a member of that community it seems that far too often the media among others try to switch the subject away from terrorism by white supremacists as quickly as possible. It is getting tiresome.
One might argue that racism is itself a sign of mental illness, but we are unlikely to be seeing or having that conversation
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: Among mass shooters, a much-higher-than-average percentage of them have some sort of diagnosable mental illness—in fact, many of them displayed a lot of warning signs. They’re also statistically likely to be white dudes.
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: It is going to be fascinating to see how this is covered.
It’s time to have a discussion on racism. Beyond time. But will it happen now?
(And how much will they try to blame all racism on people in the South? Because it would seem to be a national disorder. Witness politics, 2008-present, especially.)
Aha. NYTimes Motherlode blog goes there:
With Charleston Shooting, a Time to Stop Teaching Children About the ‘History’ of Racial Violence
Because it’s still with us. And let’s not pretend otherwise.
@Kryptik: Precisely. Very eloquently said. Don’t dilute the primary factor of racism here that is imbued throughout our society in lesser degrees. It allows people to ignore the real problem.
@The Thin Black Duke: Stormfront is a white supremacist group.
There is apparently some sociological evidence that “real” (ahem) terrorists prey on the mentally ill by convincing/coercing people who are already suicidal into becoming suicide bombers. But since our media is unwilling to even think about the possibility that maybe mentally ill people are being exploited in the Middle East, I tend to agree that having the media jump to “mental illness” as soon as a white dude kills multiple people is really fucking irritating.
IIRC, the vast majority of the evidence was that the guy from Baltimore who killed those two NYPD cops was off his rocker, but of course the media coverage was all about how the protesters “made” him do it and not the fact that he was Looney Tunes. Different races, different standards.