Wednesday night 21-year-old Dylann Storm Roof entered the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, South Carolina, around 8 pm, sat with a group of congregants in bible study for almost an hour, and then shot and killed 9 of them, reloading multiple times. Roof is white and all the victims were black and the church is one of a long and great history. Some of the media and several politicians have tried to frame Roof’s actions as that of someone who is “mentally troubled” or “attacking religion” or surprising because he was such a quiet kid, but his reasoning was clear:
Roof, 21, had complained that “blacks were taking over the world” and that “someone needed to do something about it for the white race,” according to a friend who alerted the FBI. He was arrested with his gun after an all-night manhunt, authorities said.
This is not an attack on religion or senseless violence. This is terrorism committed by a white supremacist. Team Blackness sat down for a long and emotional conversation to try to make sense of what it all means.
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Rex Tremendae
Roof, 21, had complained that “blacks were taking over the world” and that “someone needed to do something about it for the white race,” according to a friend who alerted the FBI
Alerted the FBI? I thought the friend didn’t alert anyone.
JPL
This is on the facebook account of the city that I live in.
Nine Days for Nine Souls ~
Beginning, tomorrow, June 20, and lasting nine days through next Sunday, The City of Roswell will be lowering all flags at City Hall and at all City facilities to half-staff in honor and remembrance of the victims of the Charleston tragedy.
Steve from Antioch
This is fucking retarded.
What, exactly, is to be gained by calling it terrorism?
Will we mobilize Seal Team 6 to take out the people who have supported and supplied him with weapons?
Will be undertake to vacuum up all of the electronic communications of all of his known associates?
Will we impose sanctions on countries or businesses that do business with him or his family?
Shall we put up drones in the air above Charleston 24/7?
Really, what exactly does calling it “terrorism” accomplish?
(Other than giving some self-righteous ninnies something to get verbally combative about?)
jl
One thing it means is that reactionary extremist ideas that some groups are less worthy, less American, less fit, have consequences. And people who push those ideas are partly responsible for the rise of right wing extremist violence in the US. And these cynical manipulators have either openly sympathized and excused or, in cases where that route is unavailable due to the horrific nature of the violence, have denied the obvious.
Time to stop pretending and call out the source of this growing problem. Ideas have consequences. What are those ideas and who is pushing them? People cannot be intimidated.
Anyone who thinks they are safe from this, who thinks it will only have to somebody else, is a fool (that last is a word of advice to a certain type of white people out there who think, well I am not a liberal politician in Arizona, I’m not a random fireman or cop near a hotbed of violent anti-government nuts, I am not brown, black, or some other color, I don;t wear something that might be mistaken for radical Islamist garb, whatever some violent nut thinks that is).
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
Any discussion of Roof’s mental health has to be both/and — it was the toxic combination of white supremacism, mental health issues, and easy access to guns that led to this massacre. You can’t pick out just one of the causes (well, maybe the first one) and point to it as The Cause. It was due to ALL OF THEM.
wrb
@Steve from Antioch:
Will be undertake to vacuum up all of the electronic communications of all of his known associates?
Why not treat white supremacists like Al Quaeda and ISIS? How are they less deserving?
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Steve from Antioch:
Really, you don’t think that Roof’s obvious connections to white supremacism should be investigated? Have you never even heard of Christian Identity and Aryan Nation, the latter of which is heavily involved in crime and the drug trade?
You can stick your head in the sand and pretend Roof was some kind of “lone wolf” with no connection to the ongoing white supremacist movement, but it only demonstrates that you’re a fucking moron. As usual.
jl
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): This Steve commenter is trolling with stupid offensive comments,. Not sure it is worth replying.
If it is worth bothering to analyze his comment seriously, he is assuming that there is only one type of terrorism, and one approach to dealing with it. And the approaches he mentions are ones that many at this blog disagree with, even for other types of terrorism.
So, it is BS and no reason to pay any attention to it. Maybe he can present an argument for his ridiculous assumptions. But I doubt he can, and doubt he will bother. But let’s see.
Edit: in other words, his argument is a straw man that self combusts and is almost completely consumed by the end of this comment.
Joel
@Steve from Antioch: It serves the purpose of putting white supremacists on the defensive. It marginalizes them and reduces their viewpoint — mainstream in many circles — to the fringes where it belongs. It’s a slow battle but it needs to be fought.
As for self-righteous ninnies, how would you describe your post?
Myiq2xu
Racism and insanity are not mutually exclusive. The latter is a necessary precondition of the former.
chopper
@Steve from Antioch:
okay.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve from Antioch: You can’t really be that dumb, can you?
Cervantes
@Steve from Antioch:
It’s simply the truth.
blueskies
@Steve from Antioch: It’s usually useful to recognize and name something for what it is.At the very least, it makes us think about what happened and why. This makes some people uncomfortable. You may want to reflect on that.
On a another level, officially calling this action terrorism makes available tools that otherwise wouldn’t be available. This also will make some people uncomfortable.
MomSense
@Steve from Antioch:
Here’s a pretty bug of some sort.
ETA See thread below
jl
This is terrorism. Public violence against innocent people with a stated political goal. The gunman explained it himself. Even if the gunman is insane, he was coherent enough to explain what he was doing, and did it pretty coherently.
The only differences between this and 911, is that fewer people got killed, it was aimed at a specific group, so the vast majority feel safe from it, and (thank goodness) the country has gone far enough in defeating racism, that there is very little or no likelihood that any, or more than a one or two, insane people or really hateful extremists will follow-up on the shooter’s stated desire to start a genocidal race war.
So, it is terrorism. How to deal with this particular type of terrorism in this context is a different matter (hint: it just might not involve drone strikes on US citizens in the US, or the government listening to every phone call). But it is terrorism.
the Conster
@Steve from Antioch:
Terrorism is a tactic, and those who use that tactic are terrorists. It’s exactly what white supremacists are and always have been, and the right wing has gotten away for far too long with cultivating, nurturing and mainstreaming white supremacy and its white male adherents, enablers and practitioners because they’re not marginalized and get to go around calling themselves patriots unchallenged. Words matter. They’re as much terrorists as ISIS, and need to be called out the same way, as anti-American, anti-democratic anti-equality dangerous terrorists.
LAC
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): if Steve from Antioch can stick his fucking head in the sand and stay there, that would be fine.
Roger Moore
@Steve from Antioch:
Understanding the true nature of a problem is the first step in confronting it. If you pretend the attack in Charleston is just the random action of a crazy person, you will come up with a different response than if you understand it was racial terrorism.
raven
Yea, let’s engage with another motherfucking low-life troll and show him how smart we are. WTF-K?
RaptorFence
I’ve been struck by the rush to say this isn’t racism… It seems to me that people on the right should be screaming racism from the highest heights about this because if racism is defined as actually killing 9 people, then all the stuff they do (voter suppression, hate on illegal immigrants and poors, etc) simply can’t be racism. See it isn’t racist unless you’re actively killing people of different races, their stuff is just policy disagreements…
Bobby Thomson
@Omnes Omnibus: rhetorical question, right? I mean, I’ve seen dumb.
jl
@raven: just a little due diligence for History and passers-by. Do not be alarmed.
Ben Cisco
@raven: I know, right? Quit engaging with the willfully ignorant and letting them waste our time. Glad somebody else was thinking this.
LWA (Liberal With Attitude)
I’m fine with treating the various white supremacist militias the way we treat AQ or any other terrorist organization.
Roger Moore
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
It depends on what you’re trying to do. If you’re trying to assign blame, it’s easy to pick one and say it was The Cause. But if you’re trying to solve the problem, you have to look at it in totality and see the interactions and multiple contributing factors. This is a big deal in areas like safety engineering, where the primary goal is to prevent future accidents rather than to find a scapegoat. Catastrophes- and this massacre most certainly counts- never have single, simple causes, or they would be common rather than rare. They always have multiple contributing factors that have to combine to make them possible. If you want to do something about them, you need to find all the contributing factors and do your best to deal with each of them.
Ben Cisco
@RaptorFence: In their mind, the killing of blacks and browns IS the policy disagreement.
Cervantes
@LWA (Liberal With Attitude):
And what does your “Attitude” say about constitutional rights?
srv
Rational or crazy, you decide.
Roger Moore
@RaptorFence:
I think their goal is to define racism as something that only happens in speech, never in action. If murdering 9 people isn’t racism, then voter suppression, cutting off aid to the poor, etc. can’t possibly be racism, either.
Belafon
@Cervantes: I would say that any group that wants to act like a militia gets governed under the second amendment.
gene108
@Steve from Antioch:
What exactly do you have to lose by calling it terrorism?
lamh36
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
What white Americans are grappling with today is that this “kid” views as expressed are not that far removed from their “crazy” uncle/cousin/brother or Fox News watching mother/father/grandparent.
So what makes this dude different than their relative or good friend? Well its gotta be “mental illness’, or bad parenting or drugs or tv or Internet. Cause hey sure my blah blah tells racist jokes or talk about “those people” taking over the country or what about that “nigger in da White House” or them people on welfare. They talk about “taking their country back” too.
I mean who doesn’t have a “crazy”, racist, bigot blah blah in their family….doesn’t everybody?Hell naw.
This terrorist took it further than ur “crazy” relation, but he started as they are doing now…and most certainly learned hate from someone.
That’s what some white folk are having trouble dealing with after this massacre in Charleston. That’s what Fix News/GOO folks are grappling with now. It’s got to be anything but the hate and jokes and rhetoric that’s been spewing for years in “polite company”
AndoChronic
@Steve from Antioch: First hit on Google. ˈterəˌrizəm noun: terrorism: the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
Or, we could call it “happy sunshine farting rainbows out of our fucking ass”. Does that work for you better?
raven
Here’s a question James. I was in Korea when MLK was killed and I remember some of the militant brothers expressing their amazement that he hadn’t been killed sooner. These dudes had been fed up with the whole church thing and the non-violent civil disobedience route for quite a while and they were not taking shit from anyone. If families want to forgive this scumbag that is up to them but it seems to me something has got to give.
lowercase steve
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
It is funny because a lot of the feckless Muslim radicals that we entrap are actually loan wolves who have no formal connection to jihadi terrorist organizations (they are “inspired by” them) and the media still refers to them as terrorists (also most have never actually successfully carried out an attack on civilians with the intent of terrorizing a population). So this guy certainly fits the bill better than a lot who bear the monicker.
Also, it would be insane not to investigate this person’s connections…this specific church on that specific day….he seemed to have a lot of knowledge about where to strike to maximize symbolism. Could be he never discussed any of this with any group or on any message board but I doubt it.
the Conster
@raven:
That very conversation is going on now, on Twitter. There seems to be some real understanding that change will not and cannot come peacefully.
gene108
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
The real investigation should be where the white supremacist groups and the gun-nut groups (NRA, GOA, etc.) overlap / intersect.
They seem to spend a lot of time trying to protect people’s right to stockpile guns, while knowing a lot of folks, who do this are white supremacists.
Look at how white supremacist Randy Weaver got turned into a martyr for gun rights and government overreach. There are no “if Randy had just gone to his court date, the US Marshall’s wouldn’t have had a reason to attack his home” type statements from the same folks, who say if Michael Brown had followed what Officer Wilson said, he would not be dead.
ThresherK
I have a renewed sadness. Elon and Team Blackness’s last podcast, the last one they made before the shootings, says (on late Wednesday afternoon) they “discusse[d] a tiring week”.
Trump. Dolezal. All that is bad enough, and then to add the Charleston terrorism on top of it?
My “empathy rays” are going out to them as I listen.
lamh36
In the words of the Judge today…
Hmm wonder of the same judge felt there were victims on the side if the 9/11 or Muslim terrorist sides? Hmmm
Kathleen
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Shorter Steve from Antioch: “How dare an African American call a white person a terrorist when he/she kills a black person”. He probably hasn’t realized that the murder of police (eg, Las Vegas) or attempted murder of police (Dallas) is part of the terrorist equation.
Ben Cisco
@raven:
Wise words.
A LOT of people’s perceptions of the society around them have had a massive shift.
On the other hand, many merely had their perceptions reinforced.
Society will only be as helpful toward a solution as people’s personal sense of safety allows.
In other words, if enough of those whose fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, and children are getting gunned down:
– on the street
– in the store
– in their car
– in their home
– at their house of worship
– and everywhere else they can possibly exist
something will indeed give.
People want to keep ignoring it – it will eventually get to a point where ignoring it is impossible.
gbear
@Steve from Antioch:
it worked!!
gene108
@gene108:
@Kathleen:
Kathleen sort of illustrates my point.
The stand off at the Bundy Ranch was originally portrayed by the right-wing media as a blow against “evil government excess” and “excessive burdensome taxation”, with Bundy being the hero. Then Bundy says some racist stuff that is not O.K. to rally behind and the right-wing media disassociates from him.
On the other hand, Bundy’s “2nd Amendment” remedy to tax evasion is just the sort of logical conclusion gun-nuts are advocating for, by saying their guns prevent government tyranny and it just so happens and just by “coincidence” Bundy and his supporters are stone-cold racists, who clearly have no problem with using violence against an entity, when they do not get what they want.
EDIT: Basically the gun groups and their right-wing supporters have no problem with guys like Bundy, as long as they do not do anything that publicly embarrasses them. I cannot believe that some members of the right-wing in this country, who support these sort of people, are not at least a little bit aware of the sewer of moral filth these people can flow down.
jl
@lamh36: Thanks I agree 100 percent. And people cannot be intimidated by charges of exploitation and intimidation. And not confused by issues of what the mental condition of the gunman was at the time of the shooting.
It is a trivial truism that anything that happens has multiple causes. But if you look at the trend in violent incidents around the US, and who have been the victims of various assassinations and attempts, part of the trend is clearly inspired to reactionary extremism, racism, and right wing fanaticism, one that has roots in very dark parts of this countries past. I think that is just a fact that has to be faced. And anyone who agrees needs to argue the case for what I think is a clear truth, and not be silenced or intimidated.
Ideas have consequences. And certain racist, exclusionary, oppressive ideas have been pushed by reactionary racists, and cynical political manipulators who fancy, vainly, these ideas can be controlled somehow. They can’t. Eventually the consequences of these ideas run out of control. Those eternal social and moral facts must be faced and discussed.
trollhattan
In which I meet some of the victims’ family members and discover they are far better people than I can ever dream of becoming.
Linnaeus
@trollhattan:
And, to be honest, you will never be expected to be better than you are should you ever be touched by such a horrific crime. That’s not always true of black Americans when they are.
trollhattan
@Steve from Antioch:
When you write “this is fucking retarded” you present the perfect preamble to your list of responses to terrorism, each of which is acknowledged to be ineffective. Terrorism is overcome by good police work. Full stop.
Yes, you are fucking retarded. You’ve been drinking that Antioch “water” haven’t you?
Iowa Old Lady
@jl: And the public violence wasn’t an end point. That is, this isn’t a guy who went out and shot his business partner who cheated him. The violence was aimed at stirring up racial conflict generated by fear and anger. That sounds like terrorism to me.
Brachiator
@lamh36: Roof’s sister was going to get married this weekend. She was one of those who alerted authorities when his photo was distributed. There is no evidence that she knew her brother’s plans or was involved in any way. Her distress obviously is not as great as those whose friends and family members were murdered, but it is real.
Brachiator
@srv:
Racist. As racist as America and apple pie. As racist as the Tea Party and the modern GOP.
Gimlet
@wrb: Why not treat white supremacists like Al Quaeda and ISIS? How are they less deserving?
Because they are part of our military, police, and political establishment as well as the portion of the populace you want to target.
rdldot
@RaptorFence: Duh. That’s because it’s the liberals who are the ‘real’ racists. Try to keep up, ok?
Mandalay
Just what Charleston needs right now – another racist nutjob:
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@lamh36:
Honestly, I think 95 percent (at least) of the white people who spew verbal shit would never take physical action against a Black person (meaning hit them, punch them, shoot them, etc). A much larger percentage would be happy to discriminate or otherwise be assholes, but for most people, physical violence is a line they would not cross. That’s because, generally speaking, our society is less violent overall (despite what the news media tells you), so most people aren’t comfortable with it.
A LOT of white people don’t want to confront the fact that Roof listened to all of the bullshit they were saying and/or implying and taking it to its logical conclusion. They want to pretend that his actions have nothing to do with them, when reality is that they and Roof are all occupying the same spectrum.
Like I said yesterday, though, for some of us, the racist relatives we have aren’t distant uncles who can be easily avoided, but our mothers and siblings (in my case). My mother just lost her oldest son to cancer. I can’t abandon her because she has some archaic, fucked-up beliefs that I don’t let her verbalize in front of me.
Cacti
They really have no shame.
Rick Perry describes the Emanuel AME church shooting as an “accident”.
Bradwin
One way or another, this dark has got to give
Mandalay
There is intense competition among our presidential candidates to make the most stupid comment about the Charleston massacre.
There have been some cringe inducing outbursts, but I think we have a winner:
Well done Rick Perry – the only contender who actually had the nerve to call the massacre “an accident”!
ETA Cacti beat me to it.
fuckwit
wow too many people got trolled in this thread.
it’s terrorism.
and like all catastrophes, it was the confluence of several factors. just white supremacist racism, just mental illness, or just gun fetishism would not by themselves have led to this. in this case, all three converged in one individual and now 9 innocnt people are dead, 9 families and a community devastated and grieving.
the driver of this was racism. that was the root cause. it was a terrorist attack against black people.
jl
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): These people need to face the fact that, as I said, ideas have consequences. Violent talk expresses a violent idea.
I am very acutely aware that some reactionary family and acquaintances have eagerly expressed violent fantasies against Obama whenever they have an excuse. I have politely mentioned to them that no matter how much I disliked the idea of Bush II being president, I never uttered similar thoughts. Not once. And I could honestly say that I never wished them either. No matter how much you disagree or dislike some people, some office holder, Crossing some lines, even to yourself, even verbally, is a very serious and grave business.
My little mention of that contrast was not received well. I was reduced to pestering them on whether what I said was in fact true or false.
It is mistake to overlook the hatred ignorance and fear in some people’s hearts simply because they choose to express it in ways that can be excused.
jl
@Mandalay: Perry, Jeb!, Santorum, whoever else tries to excuse this horrible act, even if implicitly or obliquely, need to answer for it if one of them makes it to the general election. I don’t think they will be called on it during the primary.
ruemara
@Brachiator: No offense, but who cares. She may be upset at the evil her brother did, but you have families torn apart and an entire subculture of this country that is being driven mad by fear & grief. If the family wishes to forgive, good on them. But it isn’t up to the judge to bring up the discomfort Roof’s family is feeling. It disgusts me that he ties them in with the victims when they could have provided the very nurturing environment such a little bigot needs to flower.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@jl:
I have never heard my mother express any violent rhetoric towards the president. If something terrible did happen to him, she would feel bad, because she is not an entirely bad person. But she thinks that he is lesser than her and shouldn’t be president.
Like I said, there’s a whole spectrum that runs the gamut from not being comfortable with Those People being in positions of power (something we all discovered a surprising number of previously avowed liberals had a problem with when Obama was elected) to “I’m not a racist, but,” and all the way up to murder. It all comes from the same place. But as we have all seen here, getting people to admit that their discomfort with a Black man in the White House is based in racism is virtually impossible, so getting them to recognize that Roof is on the same spectrum of belief as they are may well be insurmountable.
Cervantes
@Cacti:
Takes one to know one?
Bill
@Steve from Antioch: If labeling it as terrorism is as meaningless as you seem to think it is, then you should have no problem with it being labeled as terrorism.
Porco Rosso
I am gutted by this deadly idiocy perpetrated by Roof. Stay safe and sane everyone.
WaterGirl
@MomSense: I was just about to type that very comment! I think it’s a keeper as a way to deal with trolls.
WaterGirl
@Ben Cisco: Did you happen to watch Larry Wilmore’s show last night? The whole show was about what happened in Charleston, and the woman on the panel had something really great to say — and your comment reminded me of it.
Anyone here, if you didn’t catch last night’s show, I think it would be worth your time to watch it.
Steve From Antioch
@wrb:
Allowing domestic surveillance of groups whose beliefs offend has predictably bad consequences.
Steve From Antioch
@Joel: so you,re thinking that people who are not offended by cold-blooded murder during a prayer service will recalibrate their moral compass if the word terrorism is employed?
Steve From Antioch
@trollhattan: good police work is needed to combat terrorism, you say? Okay.
Hey, what’s needed to combat crime?
Waysel
@MomSense: YES!
Bill
@Steve From Antioch:
That depends entirely on the presence of a properly obtained warrant.
Steve From Antioch
@Bill: gosh it sound like you are treating this as just a crime and not TERRORISM.
MikeB
The racial oppression in this country is creating a large opening for
revisiting the 60’s, which I remember vividly.
We could soon see a 21st century Malcolm X or Huey Newton, along with new versions
of the Black Panthers, SLA, Black Muslims, armed to the teeth, yelling
revolution, and scaring the shit out of whitey. With all due respect to MLK,
it was the militant blacks who made the establishment nervous enough
to make a few concessions back in the 60’s.
The rednecks are big talkers and might welcome riots and armed
confrontation with blacks, but the white moneyed class will avoid this at
all costs.
I’ve seen this level of anger and despair in the black community before,
and they’re not going to tolerate this treatment much longer, IMO.
Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant)
@WaterGirl: I haven’t watched it yet, but I will. Thanks for mentioning it.
MomSense
Just hearing Dara say this, was devastating. I can’t stop crying.
MomSense
@Waysel: @WaterGirl:
I’m thinking it could be a stink bug!
Rasputin's Evil Twin
Once again, I note that white “supremacists” are always the bottom of the barrel, ignorant white trash sort. Hitler and his cohort were some of the most mediocre men in physique and mental capacity you’d ever want to not meet – hardly “super-duper supermen’, as Spike Jones called them.