While we’re all waiting on SCOTUS to gay marry all of us to various inanimate objects, here’s David Brooks pretzelicious defense of General Robert E. Lee, who yeah owned a bunch of slaves but you guys, it made him sad.
Like Lincoln he did not believe African-Americans were yet capable of equality. Unlike Lincoln he accepted the bondage of other human beings with bland complaisance. His wife inherited 196 slaves from her father. Her father’s will (somewhat impractically) said they were to be freed, but Lee didn’t free them.
Lee didn’t enjoy owning slaves, but he was considered a hard taskmaster and he did sell some, breaking up families. Moreover, he supported the institution of slavery as a pillar of Confederate life. He defended the right of Southerners to take their slaves to the Western territories. He fundamentally believed the existence of slavery was, at least for a time, God’s will.
Every generation has a duty to root out the stubborn weed of prejudice from the culture. We do that, in part, through expressions of admiration and disdain. Given our history, it seems right to aggressively go the extra mile to show that prejudice is simply unacceptable, no matter how fine a person might otherwise be.
My own view is that we should preserve most Confederate memorials out of respect for the common soldiers. We should keep Lee’s name on institutions that reflect postwar service, like Washington and Lee University, where he was president. But we should remove Lee’s name from most schools, roads and other institutions, where the name could be seen as acceptance of what he did and stood for during the war.
This is not about rewriting history. It’s about shaping the culture going forward.
So yes, he was a terrible awful traitor and fought to preserve slavery and stuff but he was a family man, so that’s probably okay. There, I’m as solomonic as Bobo the wonder invertebrate here. Robert E. Lee is just an historic version of Raymond “Red” Reddington fro The Blacklist, right?
I mean as far as Bobo columns go, this one is bordering on the coherent. But why in Jeebus’s name would you want to split hairs over this guy in particular as your “both sides did it” deep thought on the Civil War?
Somebody’s been watching Ken Burns to help his insomnia.
Jay C
And, apparently, succeeding…
MattF
Brooks has the bad habit of using non-facts to bolster whatever case he’s trying to make. I stumbled over his claim that Lee
Except for Grant and Sherman.
Cervantes
I did not find it so.
You’re more generous than I am.
Cervantes
@MattF:
About this:
We can re-write it thus:
Baud
The Civil War seems to be the one exception to the rule that history is written by the winners.
cmorenc
It would be wise to not try to turn the needed victory to take down the active use of the confederate flag into a Stalinist purge of every antebellum southern historical figure and monument on every southern courthouse square. Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were big-time plantation owners who declined to give up their considerable slaveholdings (though Washington did emancipate his in his will – after enjoying their benefit over his lifetime). Save the purges for the likes of Nathaniel Bedford Forrest, who actively led southern whites into brutally terrorizing the nominally freed blacks back into de facto subjugation and servitude.
dr. bloor
I won’t click through. Did Bobo even mention the part where Lee violated his oath to the constitution and everything he learned at West Point to perpetuate his right to own other human beings with bland complaisance?
raven
@dr. bloor: yes
FridayNext
@Baud:
I believe the preferred aphorism in this case is that the North won the war, but the South won the peace.
WereBear
Bobo is incoherent as a default because explaining conservative thought is made up entirely of justification and rationalization. Concepts and internal consistency are for liberals.
Mr. Longform
Some of the talk about the flag this past week seems to include a glimmer of dawning recognition by some southrons that maybe the war was a teency bit related to slavery and that maybe slavery wasn’t the greatest of our great Founding attributes. Who knows, in another 150 years, maybe they’ll admit that voting is a real, actual right to be exercised by all adult Americans. And even then, Bobo’s column will explain why it has always been the fault of the left that it hasn’t been fixed sooner.
Mudge
I have always been fond of Montgomery Meigs (a Georgian), who appropriated Lee’s plantation as a cemetery (Arlington) and, if I remember correctly,had his son ( a Union casualty) buried in the rose garden. Meigs seems to have had the appropriate respect (none) for Lee and his behavior.
cmorenc
@MattF: Well, until Grant came along, Lee was a far better general than anyone the northern armies had. We can only be grateful that he wasn’t even better and understand that the South didn’t actually need to outright win the war, but merely to wear Northern political will to continue down via a war of attrition, which but/for Lincoln’s political skills, they nearly did anyway. We can also be grateful for the instances like Gettysburg where Lee’s pride got the better of his judgment and led him to blunder – at Gettysburg, he refused the advice of some of his staff generals (including Gen. Pickering of Pickering’s charge) that the southern army would be better to recognize the Union had solidified its hold on the favorable high ground and move on to fight somewhere else on another day. Realize also that Lee lost his equivalently-to-Sherman able Stonewall Jackson in battle (Jackson was a crazed sociopath, but a very able battlefield leader).
Sherparick
For a start, Ft. Lee should be renamed (or at least named after Robert E. Lee’s father – “Lighthorse Harry” Lee who patriot and successful cavalry officer in the Continental Army for Washington and Nathaniel Greene during the American Revolution). However, my preference would be to see it named for George Thomas, the Virginian who stayed loyal to the Union and, after Grant and Sherman, was Union’s most successful General. I also think his quote says all that needs to be said about “State’s Rights.” A chaplain asked him if the soldiers’ remains should be collected and buried in groups
according to states. Thomas replied: “No, no, no. Mix them up. I am tired of state’s rights.” americancivilwar.asn.au/meet/2007_02_mtg_geo_thomas.pdf
By the way, the article discusses the human cost to Thomas of his decision to stay loyal to the Union (basically, as his sisters said, he “died” on April 18, 1861 as far as his family and friends were concerned.
vhh
@cmorenc: That would be Pickett, not Pickering.
Fester Addams
It’s going to take a whole heck of a lot of spackle to repair that big rock the state of Georgia defaced down in Stone Mountain…
Betty Cracker
I remember portraits of Robert E. Lee in my grade school classrooms when I was a kid. Lincoln and Washington too — it stands out in my mind because I often whiled away the dreary hours by drawing the portraits. By the time I got to high school in the 80s, Lee was no longer glowering down on us in history class, but Ronald Reagan was. Meet the new boss…
WereBear
@cmorenc: I have come to realize Lee was a poster child of the South; his heritage, bearing, and position meant more to the Confederates than his actual accomplishments. Actually doing something is a Yankee thing… looking good doing nothing is what the Confederacy just loves.
Mudge
@cmorenc: It’s Pickett. Pickering was the name of Henry Higgins buddy in My Fair Lady. An argument can be made that Hooker was competent, but very unlucky. Much of the Union troubles stemmed from McClellan, but the troops were well trained. Meade is under-rated..you, as many do, attribute Lee’s loss to his hubris, or whatever. Lee would have lost Gettysburg without Pickett’s charge.
dedc79
@cmorenc: Who is calling for a purge of all figures and monuments?
What I’ve seen so far are some initial steps taken to possibly take a few confederate flags down from on top of or near state capitol buildings. Also, a Republican senator from Kentucky suggested that a statute of the leader of the confederacy may not be appropriate for the front of the legislature of a state that never joined that confederacy.
Am I missing something? I know the wingnuts are screaming that monuments will be next, but isn’t that just typical paranoia?
geg6
@MattF:
Not to mention Eisenhower and Marshall.
EconWatcher
You’re trying to bait Dougj, aren’t you?
By the way, I’ve noticed that Dougj’s self-imposed moratorium on political commentary seems to be slipping, which is a good thing. So keep on baitin’.
dedc79
@Mudge:
Agreed. Which is one of the reasons why Pickett never forgave Lee. It was an obvious and further waste of life in a battle that was already lost.
celticdragonchick
@cmorenc: Washington was forbidden from freeing many of the slaves since they were actually owned by his wife…who did not want to free them.
Bobby Thomson
@geg6: and Bradley and Patton.
beltane
If McClellan were around today he would be a big favorite with the Villagers.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
“Sherman used the word Hell in a letter to the editor, so you see both sides do it” bringing you High Broderism, 1860s style.
celticdragonchick
@geg6:
Exactly.
celticdragonchick
@beltane:
Espeically since he was fond of calling the POTUS “The original gorilla” or “an ape”.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Cervantes:
Even better
Lee didn’t [ win the war, and butchered most the men under his command in futile frontal attacks against dug in positions of the kind that got General Haige labeled histories biggest idiot, he is considered the most effective general in the Civil War and maybe in American history.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@beltane:
He was back in the day, so yes. In McClellan’s defense he was a very good administrator. Just a horrible general.
Tripod
Lee was a disaster. His victories came at an insanely high cost and to no strategic advantage.
ThresherK
@Sherparick: I had not thought of this idea, but my immediate reaction is positive.
Plus, Lighthorse Harry Lee got that great song in 1776.
celticdragonchick
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Weird how that works.
At Charlestown SC in 1776, a certain Colonel Moultrie was tasked with improving defences on Sullivan Island overlooking the entrance to the harbor. He was terrible at administration. The work was slow and he was on the verge of being fired when the British attacked.
Where his administration skills were lacking, his combat skills were deadly and impressive. Even while fighting from a half finished fort that should have been abandoned as a deathtrap, Moultrie rallied his infantry and gunners to beat off the British expedition and wreck havoc on their naval forces.
When the British finally did occupy coastal SC in 1781, Moultrie was offered the of General in the British Army…which he refused with contempt.
shell
I think because Robert E. Lee is still so revered, not only in the South. Even Ken Burns calls him “”The courtly, unknowable aristocrat who disapproved of secession and slavery yet went on to defend them both at the head of one of the greatest armies of all time.”
*****
Course if you want to keep up with the comparisons with Lincoln..
“Unlike Lincoln, Lee did not free his slaves.”
celticdragonchick
@ThresherK:
Everywhere a Lee a Lee! Social LEE! Political LEE!
Eric U.
@dedc79: There is some reconsideration of statues given the political intention that resulted in them being installed in the first place. There are many statues of the reprehensible Nathan Bedford Forest, and there is a statue of a man famous for leading lynch mobs on grounds of the SC Capitol. So yeah, there are statues that should be taken down. Jeff Davis statues probably should be taken down too.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cervantes: Grading on a curve.
ThresherK
@celticdragonchick: I don’t know a participle from a predicate; I am just a simple cobbler from Connecticut.
celticdragonchick
@ThresherK:
A simple cobbler, HEEEEE!!!!!!
I love that movie :)
Steve in the ATL
In W&L’s defense, we got a week off for Washington’s birthday but only half a day for Lee’s
celticdragonchick
Marriage opinion coming up now.
celticdragonchick
kennedy has the opinion…14th Amendment requires states to issue liscence to gay couples
celticdragonchick
It’s 5-4…Scalia frothing at the mouth
celticdragonchick
Rod Dreher and NRO will be shitting bricks
celticdragonchick
And that all she wrote, folks. GLBT marriage is the law of the land.
celticdragonchick
supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/14-556_3204.pdf
debbie
From SCOTUSblog:
That would explain Scalia’s frothing.
cmorenc
@vhh:
You’re right – I was typing too fast without having drunk enough of my coffee yet to catch my obvious error.
Waldo
Wow. WTF are we to make of that statement? Is that supposed to make us feel better about him? Poor Gen. Lee, the reluctant slave owner. Maybe he was just doing it wrong. I’m sure it’s a sad day in a southerner’s life when he loses his zest for slaveholding. Jesus.
Stella B
Lee freed his slaves. His father-in-law’s will stated that the slaves were to be be used to pay off his debts and then be freed after five years. The debts were not yet paid off and Lee went to court to try to delay freeing the slaves, but lost. By all contemporary writing, Lee disliked owning slaves.
The southerners like to point out that Lee freed his (wife’s) slaves before Grant freed his (wife’s). This is technically true because sometime after the Lee slaves were freed, Grant’s wife inherited a slave. The slave was freed after the will was probated, but most people who care about this kind of thing “know” that Grant’s slave was freed later.
TOP123
@Sherparick: In before me on Gen. Thomas; my thought immediately. One of the greats, and a fine example of a patriot from Virginia.
redoubt
Total, absolute rubbish.
Cervantes
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
!
Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
@Waldo:
This calls for Tara’s Rule:
Sherparick
@Tara the Antisocial Social Worker: Winner, winner, chicken dinner. You have won this thread.
Tripod
@shell:
Burns is guilty of way too much Shelby Foote veneration. He gave great TV, but other historians were far more clear eyed about the substantial failings of Confederate political and military leadership.
West of the Cascades
“Bobo the Wonder Invertebrate” is the second best thing I have read on the internets this morning (Obergefell is # 1).
MCA1
I don’t get it. Bobo actually posits that Lee’s name should be removed from just about everything, and we’re picking on him? I’m not clicking to his column, because I refuse to actually give him the traffic, but the portion Zandar clipped puts him about 80% of the way to the probable consensus position around here. I’d rather focus on the fools who are still resisting removal of the stars and bars for now. We can talk about whether all or just some of the Robert E. Lee statues get melted down and rename every Robert E. Lee Elementary School later.
Tenar Darell
Can I play?
So, Lee was an oath-breaker, as we know. He was an “involuntary slaveholder,” who may have felt bad about it, but did nothing to free himself from that position.
So when Lee’s reluctace could have been a policy and enforced as an order, the Army of Northern Virginia’s policy was to kidnap free people and sell them as slaves. General Lee, living down to slavery since 1860.
Ella in New Mexico
One thought I’ve had over the past week or so is that if we outlaw all racist symbols, speech and honorary images, we risk not being able to know who our bigoted hold-outs are.
I mean, right now I KNOW anyone who has a Confederate flag on anything they own is a not only a total throwback, he might actually be a danger to the health and safety of others. I would never send my kid to a college or university with commemorative statues of “Great Confederate Heroes” because it tells me just where the heart and soul of that place is, for example.
I think we need to get rid of government sanctioned racist symbols, for sure. But maybe we want to be able to still hold the quiet bigots accountable, because “by their deeds they will be known”.
Arclite
Also, Hitler loved his dog, too, so he couldn’t have been all bad.
Augie
As a W&L grad, I see what you did there. But I can’t imagine a lot of people got the reference. Good academic school. Horrible human beings. I chose college … poorly.
pseudonymous in nc
@WereBear:
Ta-Nehisi’s quotes in his post this week showed how Southerners used the term ‘mechanic’ towards the north as an insult: those drubby Yankees with their factories and machines and dirty hands, while the Southern gentlemen presided over their plantations with their linen suits and manicured fingernails. Sherman took it as a compliment and regarded the white elites of the South as idle ingrates with an anachronistic love of war that needed to be driven out of them.
Augie
@Ella in New Mexico: Um. even if we take away their symbols, you will still be able to spot and idenitfy these horrible human beings. They are not silent about their terribleness. Just read your facebook feed. Or any newspapers comment thread.
mclaren
Brooks seems to be trying to root out the stubborn weed of prejudice against stupidity and ignorance.
He will fail.
mclaren
@Ella in New Mexico:
Then can we finally get rid of the misnamed Global War On Terror? Since it’s nothing but a fig leaf for the War on Brown People…