A while ago I wrote a couple of posts basically arguing that persuading works and hectoring fails because people get hostile when you try to make them feel guilty. I also proposed that the most fundamental difference between consistent liberals and consistent conservatives (consistent anti-liberals, as Cleek would say) is that ur-liberals feel a lot of guilt, maybe too much sometimes, and ur-conservatives feel none.
Now take a look at how the stars-n-bars coal rolling crowd is reacting to the Confederate flag losing its shine.
Thanks to Vice co-founder and anthropomorphized subreddit Gavin McInnes, [planking] is back. And this time, it’s here to speak out against the atrocious shaming and reverse racism currently oppressing the country’s white males. Or something.
[…] From the video:We need to do more than just take down a flag. We need to stand up and recognize the inherent privilege that comes from being white. Please join me by posting pics of yourself taken down.
Within about five milliseconds the #TakeUsDown meme was born.
@Gavin_McInnes #TakeUsDown he should be forced to have gay interracial sex with an ebola infected Obamacare member pic.twitter.com/yv4k947uHt
— Right Wing Diva (@RightWingDiva) June 26, 2015
@Gavin_McInnes finally accepted it was time to #takeusdown pic.twitter.com/PuBfPyfAXg
— Professor Fate (@springcreature) June 30, 2015
And so on. Sure it sounds like the entitled cry of an emotional three year old, a judgment that the photos hardly discourage. And I know (now) that the best response to a flailing tantrum is to ignore it. But at the same time I think that we really should pay close attention to the message, if for no other reason than because something must be pretty significant to strike so many people deeply enough to make them do something that stupid.
Until about a week ago people flying the stars-n-bars could find all kinds of refuge from those mean judgy liberals. Surely someone still believed the flag represents some abstract notion of not-racist cultural heritage, in the same way that some small number of people must turn thirty still believing in Santa Claus. But most who can feed themselves without help got the clear message from non-bleeding that confederate ‘heritage’ was ok in the same way that you could disdain blacks (and disadvantage them through policy) as long as you hold off on using the N-word around strangers or recording devices.
Then out of nowhere an idiot shoots up a church and seemingly everyone is acting like the flag is something to be embarrassed about. We liberal folk may think, ok so stop using the flag. We get that sort of memo all the time. For example I still fret about all that fast food styrofoam of my youth, I felt a twinge about using ‘black’ instead of POC or whatever even though I intended that sentence to reflect the thinking of its subject, I feel bad when I still catch myself using Native American instead of First Nations (? that all came up after I graduated college) and I am intentionally ignoring the memos about adding more letters to LGBTQetc. However I think the experience for conservatives is a lot more jarring. In my opinion conservatives are basically defined by their severe defensive reaction to guilt/shame. It explains why conservative political strategies have so much to do with shame and transferring it (about being poor, using government support etc) to some other object of hate.
Liberals have always looked down at that flag. That’s why rightwing jerkoffs put it back up in the first place. People mostly don’t mind a contentious ‘us versus them’ situation as long as the ‘us’ has a big support network. Fewer enjoy it when ‘us’ constitutes an embattled niche group with no meaningful support from big business, popular media or political leaders. They may lash out at liberals but liberals did not abandon the neo-confederates last week. Nikki Haley and the Waltons did, along with the GOP Presidential field and what seems like two thirds of everyone else these goobers looked to for support. And they really, really need support. They need someone to tell them that they should never, ever feel guilty about whatever the issue of the day might be. No wonder they are lying down as if the permissive parent who let them throw rocks at the neighbors’ smaller kid suddenly discovered social norms and spanking.
HumboldtBlue
Even more importantly and impactful — NASCAR abandoned them, completely too. No more flags in the stands or on the RVs, not more flags or t-shirts or beer coozies on the infield. NASCAR told them to take their fucking traitors flag and fuck off and when, as a supposedly proud South’ron heritage type, you have lost NASCAR you have lost the fucking war.
Again!
OzarkHillbilly
These people have the emotional maturity of a 2 yr old. Ever try reasoning with a 2 yr old? You can’t. The best you can do is get them to understand the fact that no, you can’t make them do anything. But you sure as hell can make them sorry they didn’t.
aimai
I would reverse the polarity of this argument a bit. Conservatives, being authoritarian followers, are used to being led by strong feelings of shame and humiliation. That’s how childrearing works in many evangelical households and authoritarian families. People are humiliated and shamed into conformity, and conforming means you are safe. People who seek to conform to the dictates of authorities (parents, god, country) are going to feel extreme anguish when their formerly acceptable behavior gets called out by new authorities, or by society generally. In experiments Bob Altemeyer showed that authoritarians will subtly try to move their answers, on a quiz, to reflect what htey are told other people have given as answers. But in the political realm that isn’t always possible. Instead people will have to reject the legitimacy of the new authority (Obama isn’t my president, he wasn’t really elected, he was elected by people who didn’t know who he was) in order to preserve self acceptance. This is why they are so hysterical about the Pope turning against them. They have a way to account for rejecting Obama and Holder as democrats/enemies.
bs23
not to detract from a very nice post, but stars-n-bars != confederate (battle) flag.
I especially like “Liberals have always looked down at that flag. That’s why rightwing jerkoffs put it back up in the first place. ” To the point.
Gin & Tonic
The Army of Northern Virginia Battle Flag (pictured) is not the “Stars and Bars.”
gogol's wife
@HumboldtBlue:
Wow, I hadn’t heard that. That’s huge.
jl
Not sure the shame is all that deep for some of those guys. I clicked the link and one guy is lying face up with a suspicious limp bump from a suspicious area. I’m not sure what it is. But maybe he wanted to show he was so ashamed the little willy was ashamed too and had to lie down.
And a guy face down in dumpster put down some cardboard. What kind of real shame defers to a that kind of mincing hygienic neurosis.
trollhattan
I’ll sub out my thoughts to my man, Doug Baldwin:
As the cool kids say, read the whole thing.
JCT
Good lord, they give naughty toddlers a run for their money . Pathetic.
DCrefugee
Don’t underestimate the power of shame and ridicule. Laughing and pointing at someone’s 1950’s-era bigotry can have an effect, also.
ranchandsyrup
This charming cowboy took it a couple of levels too far. twitter.com/randygdub/status/615762695527096324
jl
@Gin & Tonic: Thanks for reminder. I got that confused in a comments a few days ago.
beltane
They can just adopt the dildo ISIS flag as their own.
BR
Doesn’t this argument somewhat contradict DougJ’s post two posts down? He’s saying that it’s just a matter of shaming others (or feeling shame oneself), so maybe it’s just about different things?
Villago Delenda Est
Every last one of these twits should be sent to bed without their supper.
Repeatedly.
HumboldtBlue
@gogol’s wife: Yes it is, Yoooooge as Wonkette says when mocking Trump … yoooooggge
SONOMA, Calif. — Calling the Confederate flag an “insensitive symbol” that he finds offensive, NASCAR chairman Brian France said the sport will be aggressive in disassociating it from its events.
“We want to go as far as we can to eliminate the presence of that flag,” France said Saturday. “I personally find it an offensive symbol, so there is no daylight how we feel about it and our sensitivity to others who feel the same way.
“We’re working with the industry to see how far we can go to get that flag to be disassociated entirely from our events.”
the Conster
Thankfully I don’t know anyone this childish, even my nephew’s toddlers. What pathetic excuses for men.
MattF
For conservatives, there are people whose opinions count and there are people whose opinions don’t count. Who, after all, knows best what that flag means? It’s people whose opinions don’t count. Why was Obama’s election (and re-election) illegitimate? He was elected (and re-elected) by people whose opinions don’t count. Et cetera.
Mandalay
Well John Dean tried not to, but he (rightly) got pounded for it by his fellow Democrats…
That was only 12 years ago.
KG
That’s because when “us” is defined as such, it means “us” is “them” in the “us vs them” dichotomy. At least in the American tradition “us” has always been the majority and “them” has always been the minority.
Baud
I’m starting to understand why they lost the war.
Villago Delenda Est
@Baud: All they ever had was cotton, slaves, and arrogance.
beltane
@Baud: They are very good at parody trolling themselves. I thought their goal was to make liberals mad, not to make us scratch our heads wondering, “What are these people doing lying down like that?”
JPL
Several years ago, while trying to sale a house in an upscale neighborhood, someone had a confederate flag in their garage window. I just prayed no one saw it when they came to my house.
Before then, I assumed that well educated people, would not be associated with the flag.
dmbeaster
Someone should post an historical lynching post card picture next to each of these wankers’ postings for a little perspective on flag heritage and what it really meant to be taken down.
OzarkHillbilly
@Villago Delenda Est: Which leaves them with arrogance.
JPL
@Villago Delenda Est: Arrogance or ignorance… I think both.
beltane
The first thing that comes to mind when I look at those pictures is to wonder if those guys are waiting for the comet to come take them away.
Mike in NC
A chapter of the KKK is planning a rally for saving their flag on July 18 at the SC state capital. Hopefully Rand Paul, Scott Walker, and the rest of the klown kar will be on hand for support. Chris Christie will need two sheets to fashion his robe.
Bobby Thomson
Bwahahahahahaha. Sorry but I can’t hear you over the sound of how ridiculous these assholes are. These are all parody trolls, right? Right? Cause this is hella stupid. Also, too, the point of shaming assholes isn’t to change their tiny minds. It’s to get them to STFU.
princess leia
facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153549503211869&set=a.10151362042286869.540845.563721868&typ…
Trump’s suit line is made in Mexico. Awesome.
Bobby Thomson
@beltane: this reminds me of Ewick and his rock salt.
beltane
@Bobby Thomson: They don’t think like normal people.
OzarkHillbilly
@princess leia: linky no worky
Cervantes
Was it really as simple as that?
dmsilev
@Mandalay: Webb made some muttering noises about supporting “Southern Heritage” a week or two ago. Which promptly lowered the probability of a successful Webb for President campaign from one in a million down to one in a billion.
Bobby Thomson
@Cervantes: yes.
jl
@beltane:
‘ They are very good at parody trolling themselves. I thought their goal was to make liberals mad, not to make us scratch our heads wondering, “What are these people doing lying down like that?” ‘
I agree. Whoever thought up this stunt is an amateur who should leave the PR and social engineering to the pros. I wasn’t sure what the planking was supposed to be from the post. Was it some white guys showing solidarity with the majority of the country (which appears to be the majority of whites too) that is fed up with the Confederate flag dogwhistle? Or were they white battle flaggers showing shame at how their still favored symbol of Southern Heritage has been co-opted by bigots? Or, they were bigot battle flaggers planking to show.. what…?
So, I clicked the link and got the general idea of it, but still unclear as to the exact meaning of their attempted statement.
Anyway, being a good liberal, and progeny of two famous shame cultures, I do feel shame. But not when I’m laughing.
Now, here is Huckabee saying that advocating for civil rights tor LGBT disrespects African-Americans, because African-Americans suffered more (I guess Huckabee will some out similar statement on civil rights for women, or disabled, or immigrants, or… Native Americans.. no maybe not them, he will have to think of a new gimmick troll for that).
Anyway, battle flag plankers, you have professionals working for your cause, and I think you should follow their expert example and not try to go freestyling on your own.
Dear Black Folks, Mike Huckabee Would Like To Be Your White Knight
wonkette.com/590044/dear-black-folks-mike-huckabee-would-like-to-be-your-white-knight
Tommy
I’ve said this a few times here and will keep saying it. My father’s PHd is in military history. Civil War to be exact. When you might have gone to Disney World for a vacation I went to Civil War battle fields. He’d walk the fields animated telling me what happened and how people died.
I think people have forgotten that we killed each other wholesale. That flag is a throw back to that. It is hateful.
If I tried to fly it or display it in my house my dad would slap me upside my head, and rightfully so!
JPL
@princess leia: The link didn’t work for me either, but it is nice to know. Unfortunately, now that Macy’s dropped him, he’ll have fewer outlets to sell his good. It might put some good people out of work.
jl
To sum it up: Does a symbolic gesture falling in the social media make a statement when no one can figure it out?
Mike in NC
@dmsilev: Never cared for Webb’s “hardscrabble Scots-Irish of Appalachia” schtick, though we did vote for him when he was running against George ‘Macaca’ Allen, a Neo-Confederate twit who displayed a noose and the rebel flag in his office.
Ron Thompson
This is NOT the Stars and Bars! It is the Confederate Battle Flag. The Stars and Bars was the first Confederate national flag, and it bears no resemblance to the Battle Flag.
JPL
@Ron Thompson: In fact the stars and bars bears resemblance to the GA Flag. We stripped the battle flag from our flag in the early 2000’s
MattF
@Ron Thompson: What Wikipedia says.
ruemara
Not do I feel no sympathy, I’m suddenly driven to laugh until my sides hurt.
Tenar Darell
Lying on your stomach is not planking. Planking means arms and legs holding yourself up, abs acting as stabilizers, like a board. And FFS it will make you hurt for days if you balance yourself correctly! /pedant
Tommy
@Ron Thompson: No you are 110% right. But it is what a large, large part of the population thinks is the flag flown during the Civil War. I got a father that wrote a 600 page Dissertation on the Civil War and it is what I view as the symbol of the war.
beltane
@JPL: From The Onion a week ago: “Georgia adds swastika and middle finger to state flag.”
Patricia Kayden
No one cares if racist idiots throw temper tantrums about their swastika flag. Take it down from public property. That is all. They can continue to fly their precious flags from their bodily orifices all they like.
wasabi gasp
Guy on flag looks dedicated. Like he’s 5X a day facing piggly wiggly.
Frankensteinbeck
Do not confuse guilt with shame. Guilt is internal, a moral judgment of yourself. Shame is a reaction to external pressure. Shame is, as Khalid said above, a major component of conservative religion and small community hierarchies. Conservatives are very used to shame. Much of the passion of the current conservative movement is their anger at the shame they’ve endured for the things they love, like bigotry and sadism. Rush Limbaugh, with his ranting about Feminazis and Blacks Are The Real Racists, is the voice of this anger. You constantly see conservatives trying to inoculate themselves from shame, by pretending George Bush didn’t exist, or accusing liberals of their own crimes.
beltane
@Frankensteinbeck: Conservatives also feel miffed when they are not allowed to make others feel ashamed for things they feel are shameful, such as being gay or poor or a single mother, etc.
trollhattan
@efgoldman:
Not two sheets; one California king should do it. I suggest Downey, also, too, Christie chafes easily.
beltane
@wasabi gasp: Check out the link @ comment 11, that guys not only looks dedicated, he looks defecated.
Scooter
Seriously, this hashtag should be filled with pics of lynched blacks.
NotMax
For the bazillionth time, the battle flag and the stars and bars flag are two entirely different designs.
dogwood
Meanwhile, while conservatives make fools of themselves over flags and gays, that sneaky Obama fellow is opening an embassy in Havana.
Fair Economist
@Baud:
You should post that on one of those twitter feeds
NotMax
@efgoldman
Pedantry has little to do with it. An argument couched in reason is infinitely more credible than one couched in ignorance.
Brachiator
So, with the Fourth of July coming up, the only flag that anyone, including the Confederate inclined, should be the regular, standard American flag. I mean, these folks are patriots, right? They wouldn’t want to look un American, right? Heritage and values should be all red, white and blue, right? Any true conservative would want to embrace American, not sectional values, right?
All this hissy fitting is so much fun to watch.
NotoriousJRT
@Gin & Tonic:
Thanks for this. Stars and Bars is cute shorthand but totally inaccurate for the flag in question.
Want to know what the Stars and Bars really looks like?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America
joel hanes
In my opinion conservatives are basically defined by their severe defensive reaction to guilt/shame.
Economically, they’re characterized by their refusal to accept reponsibility for any costs they can externalize.
Socially, they’re characterized by their refusal to accept responsibility for outcomes if “their intentions are good”.
Intellectually, they’re characterized by their refusal to accept responsibility for learning what’s true, and adjusting their ideas to match reality.
Overall, they’re characterized by their refusal to accept responsibility.
NotoriousJRT
@efgoldman:
History pedant disagrees. If you want people to get “their” history right, then get yours right.
Fair Economist
@Ron Thompson:
The first official Confederate flag is mostly forgotten and when people talk about the “Stars and Bars” they’re almost always referring to that X with stars.
jl
@efgoldman:
” Remember that any stupid thing any small group of tantrumy idiots does, is amplified a kazillion times by these here intartubez. ”
Good to remember that.
More important it how people on the fence in these culture wars vote. The only grain of truth or value I can see in the worry over the ‘white culture’ is that a lot of it may be due to fear and insecurity from social and economic forces that have made life harder and more insecure for every group. Working class and poor white males have felt it too, and they are more likely to blame minorities and uppity women, and that damn big federal government that they think is discriminating against them, than the cynical manipulators that look like them, talk like them, say things that make them feel good, even as they betray them socially and economically.
I think that is a reality that has to be addressed. I think it is weird and obtuse to drag in the Confederate battle flag or ‘white culture’ BS like Dean and Webb did. The issue needs to be addressed in a way that reinforces message of civil rights and fair play and creating more opportunities for everyone no matter what group they might be identified with by others, or identify themselves with.
Some of these people are bigots to the bone, and they will endure great hardship to preserve their bigotry, and those people are beyond reach. But a many can be swung over to voting in a reasonable way. So, who cares about symbolic gesture fails like this battle flag planking? it is funny, and also kind of weird and sad, but that is all it is, I think.
LWA
So this tantrum strikes me as being a social media version of the RedState Trike Farce “Lets mail shit to people we don’t like”.
Photos of a bunch of stupid white guys lying face down? #AGoodStart
Elizabelle
Bumpersticker spotted today on a WingnutPatriotVehicle in suburban Virginia (one among maybe 30 on the SUV):
I was so tempted to put up a post it note “You’re welcome, America”, but knew the driver would see it fast. She uses a Liberty! Ownership Society (TM) walker; she’d see it the moment she stowed it.
But: what a ratf*cking opportunity.
We should have stickers like that and put them on Patriot-stickered vehicles.
Two birds with one stone. And one of those birds is too damn bitter to eat.
Elizabelle
Those photos are offensive.
Somebody should put them up against pictures of Civil War dead, lying blown to bits in fields.
One of those “patriots” is a faker. One walked the walk.
Fair Economist
@dmbeaster:
I was thinking they looked disturbingly like Walter Scott after the policeman assassinated him and planted evidence.
chopper
@Tommy:
really? we had no idea.
jl
I think the bizarre and supposedly edifying dilemmas reactionaries think up for liberals are fun, and note they are missing from their reaction to the recent defeats and public revulsion against their pet symbols.
I think this one I heard was a real hoot: ‘ha ha liberals, what do you say to your Muslim hair dresser who won’t cut a lesbian’s hair? Gotcha!!’
I’m like.. I dunno. Explain to my Muslim hair dresser how a secular government works, and what civil rights laws are, and if he/she seems a little crazed about the issue, go someplace else?
Best we have had is the polyamory dilemma. But the reactionaries on that beat are so conflicted by their desire to go back to unequal patriarchal polygamy, and they would LOVE that, that they can’t pull it off. Half the time they are trying to pose the dilemma that will stump us silly liberals, and the other half of the time they seem like they are unconsciously musing to themselves how great that world would be.
chopper
@NotMax:
I think that point has been made a bazillion times. I don’t think anybody really cares. at this point to consistent pointing out of the fact has gotten more annoying than seeing the mistake in a blog post.
SmallAxe
Has anyone pointed out the irony that this Dbag McInnes isn’t even an American? He’s from Canada. Just a troll.
Cervantes
@Bobby Thomson:
The same way some people might “look down on” people who watch “Reality TV,” say?
I’m not sure the language does justice to the situation, that’s all.
Cervantes
@chopper:
No news is good news?
SmallAxe
Has anyone pointed out the irony that this Dbag McInnes isn’t even an American? He’s from Canada.
gelfling545
@efgoldman: One of the severe drawbacks of the internet: even 10 years ago there were still probably any number of a**holes saying/doing idiotic things but I didn’t know about it. Sometimes I long for those days of my ignorance.
dedc79
As the news reverts to its depressing mean, it’s worth remembering that there are some amazing people living among us who truly put the hateful morons pictured above to shame:
EthylEster
@jl wrote:
Thanks for putting into words my very confused thoughts.
JPL
@dedc79: That was such a nice story. I saw it earlier and CBS is going to have a story on it after the commercial.
danielx
From David Brooks’ column of today, and no I can’t bring myself to link to it.
Does the silly bastard actually know any social conservatives, or has he ever had face-to-face contact with any? Far as I can tell, the only thing social conservatives want to do with society is to be the morality police – their version of morality, of course.
EthylEster
And another thing….lots of talk about getting rid of the flag.
But I’ll wait til it’s actually GONE before I spend any time celebrating.
Just because it’s down in SC doesn’t mean that will happen everywhere.
(Recall HOW it came down in SC. If that hadn’t happened, it would still be up IMO.)
raven
Michelle Obama tearing up the “no photo’s in the Whitehouse” is a gas!
Calliope Jane
@HumboldtBlue: It’s great news, about NASCAR. One of the SportsCenter hosts did a couple of minutes on it last night– they’re prohibiting the flag on anything official, and this weekend they’re doing a flag swap– turn in your confederate flag for an American one :))
NotMax
@chopper
Have to gently disagree, as the error in Tim’s otherwise laudable post detracts from the his stance and makes him look uninformed, obtuse or foolish.
People (not all, granted) on the other (wrong) side of the Confederate flag argument know the difference and will be lightning quick to seize on the error as an excuse to dismiss anything else substantive out of hand.
chopper
@NotMax:
people on the other side of the ‘confederate flag argument’ are generally assholes trying to rationalize proudly waving a symbol of racism and oppression. they’re not going to give a shit about some liberal getting the flag’s name ‘just right’.
BillinGlendaleCA
@raven: Good, I wish I had pics from inside. I do have a couple of pics in the north driveway.
shell
@HumboldtBlue: There’s now a Trump pinata thats becoming very popular in Mexico.
maya
So, will the KKK extend an invitation to Joan Baez to perform her hit The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down at their rally?
wasabi gasp
@beltane: Now I wanna see a “freedumb fries” captioned photo of all these plankin’ pale-legged fellers stuffed head first into that container.
J R in WV
As far as I’m concerned (and I’m certain I had ancestors on both sides!) any and all of the flags used by any tiny bit of the confederacy are equally despicable, and may be referred to as the southern swastika, stars and bars, etc, etc.
And as far as I’m concerned, those flying any of the old ancestral southern swastikas are showing us their lack of intelligence and morality. I kind of hope they continue to display their arrogant stupidity in public, so we know who to look out for.
A friend was over visiting the other day, talked about speaking up about Democratic principles, said, “But lots of THEM carry guns!” Then she looked at me, and said with a little smile, “But so do you, don’t you!” And I said, “Sometimes”, because I don’t most of the time.
More lately, though. I don’t intend to be helpless if some republican know-nothing pulls a gun on a bunch of people.
You guys going on about the difference between those flags, that’s as stupid as giving a non-gun-user a hard time about nomenclature of clips/magazines/shells/bullets/cartridges in a discussion of legalities. Missing the point completely, becoming a distraction. Maybe that’s the intent, in which case STFU and go away, that’s not what this site is about.
All those confederate emblems are hate speech, to the extent they have any meaning, it is hate, evil, oppression, torture, and sin. Talking about which hate symbol is which only means you aren’t addressing the evil at all. So stop!
kc
@Patricia Kayden:
Yep.
I don’t understand how people who by and large hate the government and hate paying taxes are so bent on having this flag fly on government property.
kc
@EthylEster:
It’s not down yet in SC. The legislature is voting on July 6, and apparently there are enough votes to take it down. I’m just keeping my fingers crossed that no stupidity breaks out before July 6 that would interfere with FINALLY getting this flag down.
chopper
@J R in WV:
exactly. some gun-humping right winger isn’t going to listen to anyone talk negatively about guns just because they know the difference between a clip and a magazine. fuck them.
Randy P
Like how the number 27% keeps coming up, the tea-baggers keep demonstrating over and over that right-wing attempts at humor just leave you scratching your head and asking where the joke part is.
@kc: The KKK has been approved for a protest rally on July 18. People are pretty sure the legislature is scrambling to make sure they hold that vote before the KKK gets there.
Our white-robed friends will probably still hold the rally though. Maybe now they’ll add lying face down on flags to their protest. That would be kind of fun, if bewildering.
LWA
@danielx:
This “social conservatism” Mr. Brooks speaks of- it sounds delightful!
Where might one view it in the wild?
kc
@Randy P:
The vote was scheduled before the rally was announced. But yeah, it would be really good to get the flag down before the farkin’ KKK klown show appears.
Tree With Water
“The history of American democracy is a gradual realization, too slow for some and too rapid for others, of the implications of the Declaration of Independence”.
Ralph Barton Perry
Puritanism and Democracy
gogol's wife
@chopper:
This reminds me of how people for gun control are supposed to be all up on the difference between the various death machines before we can say anything.
ETA: Sorry, my point was already made.
JPL
OT.. The President spoke in Nashville today about the ACA.
Former Senator Bill Frist, Republican of Tennessee, who attended the event, said Mr. Obama had argued in a “very, very rational way” for “affordable access for every American, with responsibility relying with the state.” Mr. Frist said he hoped that “more and more Tennesseans” would agree with the president on the issue.
link to the NYTimes
the Conster
@JPL:
Frist has probably tripled his income under the ACA. Still, any GOPer who wants to promote rational discussion about policy is not a lost cause.
SiubhanDuinne
@beltane:
NotMax
@gogol’s wife – @chopper
Know thine enemy ain’t just a platitude.
The more facts laid upon the table, the less room on the table for falsehoods, fudging and fecklessness.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@J R in WV: Yes. This, exactly.
Ruckus
Who gives a shit about which flag is which? Both of the flags in question originate from a treasonous group of states. They lost the war. They should get the fuck over it and not fly any flag used by the confederate states. Now you want to be a douche bag racist, fly it proudly because that’s all either of them stand for. The heritage they are proud of is slavery, that they could be shit stains and still feel like they were better than someone else.
Felonius Monk
@LWA:
In a David Brooks wet dream, perhaps.
cokane
People seem to forget in this debate that the problem w/ the flag isn’t even so much Civil War history itself. The flag was resurrected specifically in the mid 20th century to support segregation and subjugation of blacks. This is actually more why racists such as Roof were drawn to it. And also why blacks are deeply offended by it. Some of those people who died in Charleston literally had to live under the terror regime of that flag.
chopper
@NotMax:
these are people who will argue to their graves that the civil war wasn’t about slavery. ‘facts’ don’t enter into it. they don’t give a shit about facts.
all you’re really gonna do is make them feel more legit than they have the right to feel. as I said upthread, fuck em.
RSA
@NotMax:
Something like not calling a magazine a clip, or vice versa, for credibility in a discussion of gun laws? I have to say… okay, I guess I don’t really have anything to say.
Bill in Section 147
So getting a social media snapshot of yourself looking like every other bro at the end of Spring Break (face down where you passed out) is how one protests the loss of one’s heritage.
I bet there will be lots of Southern Heritage snaps taken at the various Country and Rock festivals this Fourth of July.
Please be responsible and endeavor to find a tree or fence to lean upon if you are too drunk to walk or you may find yourself on the next Southern Pride Facebook post.
Librarian
I don’t get it. How is lying on your stomach supposed to be a protest of anything? Is this one of those wingnut rituals and symbols that only they understand?
seaboogie
@ Tim F I think that you make some very good points. Shaming might have an effect on a particular behaviour (like drinking and driving, for instance). But when shame is directed at an entire culture, we are asking folks to be ashamed of a huge part of their identity.
Furthermore, for men in particular, their worst fear – by and large – is shame or ridicule. (For women, it is the fear of physical violence). So shaming these men, and the menfolk of the women who are loyal to them and don’t want to see them get too upset for very good reason, seems counterproductive. As women become more equal, are often now a majority of college and university students, could be your boss some day, white men are just ceding power that they had just about forever as a birthright. You didn’t have to be smart of accomplished to have some measure of control, and be superior to women, minorities, or female minorities (heaven forfend).
The planking seems like a pretty eloquent expression of despair of lost power. As the economic disparity deepens between the haves and have-not-very-much-anymore, and without access to or a cultural disposition to inform themselves to the actual causes of this, the anger is understandable. Perhaps always understood was that you had to defer to the boss-man, but when a central tenet of the confederacy was that slaves could not be free men because that might mean that they could become the boss, the leader – and then Obama happened – it’s really no wonder that they are inclined to rage as the worst scenario plays out, and they are relatively powerless to do anything about it.
Add to this the 1% who own the media and fuel this rage, it’s really no wonder that they feel powerless in their grief over losing this one remaining advantage that they thought they had. I see that in these photos and in the conservative sites that I sometimes visit and occasionally troll. So much anger and 1 paragraph rants that go on for 2 pages….
At the same time, witnessing the profound sadness and grief of the family and community members after the Charleston massacre, I was deeply affected by the evident weariness of 2 centuries of having to deal, and the grace that they showed in forgiving the killer seemed to be a result of many generations of dealing with constant oppression, just for survival. It may not be as bad as it once was, but it never seems to end.
I think it’s going to take a lot of dialogue. South Africa had their Truth and Reconciliation Hearings, and that’s unlikely to ever happen here as the change is been over a long time and less abrupt, but maybe in our commentary, we should be wise enough to approach the those who do not understand, and are losing something that they felt they deserved as a birthright, with some empathy as we listen to each other and find a common ground in our mutual struggle for survival. It’s going to take a lot of up-sucking and open minds on both sides, and the bigots have a big handicap going into this.
NotMax
@RSA
I happen to be a stickler for aiming for accuracy in language as an aid to clearer communication.
Others, perhaps not so much.
seaboogie
@Ruckus: I was going to go all corrective on the “stars and bars” front because I got called out on my comments on a conservative site. So no, I didn’t get this particular distinction.
Hitler (oh, yeah – I went there!) got the German people riled up after losing WWI and being made to be accountable for it, so let’s remember that lesson. It took defeat in another World War and the Holocaust for the Germans to be absolutely certain that they would never do such a thing again, and now it is ingrained in their national psyche.
Our venting might feel good – and is oftentimes wittier than the bigots (well, mostly always), but it isn’t very productive if our goal is rowing together in the same boat in which we find ourselves. Maybe we could all descend upon the conservative sites and overwhelm them with compassion, understanding and education…radical thought, but yelling doesn’t seem to be working very well. The only thing that does seem to be is when their own side is so off the hook that even they can’t stand it anymore. Kind of like Cole moving off of the Reagan Republican deal.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
I know I can’t be the only one who has no fucking clue what the point of this shit is meant to be, can I? Why are these guys all lying on the floor? I even went to the link and read the thing, and I still have no clue what the fuck these guys are doing or why. Is this meant to somehow turn the tide against the confederate rag? I’m at a loss here.
catbirdman
Is anyone else feeling just a leetle curious about how all the Powers that Be in whyte America — right down to Walmart and NASCAR, for God’s sake — suddenly decided en masse to abandon the Dukes of Hazard flag?
Wasn’t the Southern Strategy all about maintaining racism by adopting dog-whistles and abandoning obvious stuff like the N-word?
Now that the Confederate Flag has become as obvious a racist totem as the N-word, how is this sudden turn away from it anything more than the Southern Strategy in 2015 corporate form? Why shouldn’t we expect that the obvious totem won’t be quietly replaced by some other racist signifier that can be flown under the radar for a bit longer?
The Lodger
@jl: I just want to hear someone try to say “bigot battle flaggers” ten times real fast.
jl
@The Lodger:
bigot battle dead ender flagger planker blankers
Plantsmantx
@SmallAxe:
He’s not American, but he’s white, and that’s what it’s really about for these guys. That’s why Roof had South African and Rhodesian flag patches on his jacket. It’s why the Confederate flag is used as a symbol of white supremacy in Europe.
Plantsmantx
Those photos seem masochistic to me, just like their fondness for describing things as being shoved down their throats.
Lurking Canadian
I’d anybody else reminded of the episode of Seinfeld when Kramer made an effigy of a postman with his head in a bucket?
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
What burns my ass is I’ve got facebook friends from high school who are posting graphics supporting the confederate flag. I grew up in Michigan. They’re all still in Michigan. Why would you support that flag if you’re from north of the Mason Dixon line? It’s sure as hell not about heritage.
Matt
Dear neoconfederates: the pictures would be so much more convincing with some shotgun mouthwash. Make sure you get your whole head in front of the barrel.
Another Holocene Human
@J R in WV: this this this – all the upfists
FortGeek
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
Late to the thread, but it seems like they’re acting like they’ve just been thrown aside like trash, and they’re just like the flag coming down because all that important (symbolic) history and (symbolic) pride is just getting tossed aside by us mean ol’ liberals.
Playing the martyr?