The US Women’s World Cup match on Sunday was the most-watched soccer game in the history of the United States. According to the NYT article linked above, more Americans watched Sunday’s game than watched the Stanley Cup final, Game 7 of the World Series between the Royals and Giants or the NBA championship final.
The victorious US women’s team will collect $2 million from FIFA. The men’s teams that lost in the first round (including the US men’s team) received $8 million from FIFA. The 2014 Men’s World Cup winner, Germany, received $35 million. Yeah, life’s fair.
Open thread!
SFAW
Well, if the women had chosen to play on grass, instead of turf, they might have gotten more. Buncha whiners.
Despite them being wimmins and all, it was a fun game to watch.
Sherparick
Before or after the kickbacks?
Betty Cracker
@SFAW: You’re probably just snarking, but I’ll quote from the second linked article above anyway just in case other readers aren’t aware of the turf issue:
I’ve got an athletic daughter, and gender inequities in sports have been pissing me off since the t-ball days.
PurpleGirl
Manhattan Borough President Gale Brewer wants to give the U.S. Women’s Soccer team a ticker tape parade. Mayor DiBlasio says the administration is looking at what needs to be done to have a parade. BP Gale Brewer has a petition up at Change.org:
https://www.change.org/p/bill-de-blasio-hold-a-ticker-tape-parade-in-nyc-for-the-us-women-s-national-soccer-team
mai naem mobile
Yeah, but Michael Eisner said they have to be talented athletically and pretty. Seriously, I hope other women’s sports have some kind of bonus structure based on viewership if they can’t get compensation like they should.
Valdivia
@PurpleGirl: a parade for them sounds just like the thing! Hope they get it together.
@Betty Cracker: The CR female team only got 5 am training slots and got barely any money from the national futbol organization (whose head was btw indicted for corruption by us) Like you this kind of thing pisses me off no end.
PurpleGirl
In other news, Bill Cosby’s taped deposition in a sexual harassment suit was released. His attorneys were against releasing it because of the embarrassment it could cause Cosby. He admits drugging women with quaaludes in order to have sex with them. Awww, poor baby; let’s hear the tiny violins.
Baud
As someone who only cares about the U.S. team, I prefer the women because they know how to win games.
SFAW
@Betty Cracker:
Of course. I’m not as anti-FIFA as John Oliver – tough to meet that standard – but I think they’re a bunch of corrupt assholes who should join the 20th Century. Turf? YGBSM.
Although, I’m of the opinion that, had it been grass, Kaihori probably would have saved Carli Lloyd’s third goal. But that’s about the only quasi-redeeming thing about it.
OzarkHillbilly
@PurpleGirl: Yeah, I posted this in the previous thread:
Speaking of sharks, Bill Cosby’s career is toast.
During the deposition, Cosby said that he had obtained seven prescriptions for the sedative quaalude.
“You gave them to other people?” he was asked.
“Yes,” he replied.
…..
“When you got the quaaludes, was it in your mind that you were going to use these quaaludes for young women you wanted to have sex with?” asked Troiani.
“Yes,” replied Cosby.
…..
The documents also include details of questions Cosby was asked under deposition about another woman, one of the so-called “Jane Does” who were called anonymously to give evidence in the Constand case. The woman told lawyers that at the age of 19 she met with Cosby and had sex with him after he gave her quaaludes.
In his deposition, Cosby said he met the witness in Las Vegas: “She meets me backstage. I give her quaaludes. We then have sex.” Cosby then goes on to say: “I can’t judge at this time what she knows about herself for 19 years, a passive personality.”
Betty Cracker
@PurpleGirl: I’d rather hear prison doors slamming behind the rapist, but I suppose that’s too much to hope for.
OzarkHillbilly
@OzarkHillbilly: The judge had this to say:
Explaining his decision to release the papers, Robreno is scathing about Cosby’s claim that he had a right to privacy. He said that Cosby had “donned the mantle of public moralist and mounted the proverbial electronic or print soap box to volunteer his views on, among other things, childrearing, family life, education, and crime. To the extent that Defendant has freely entered the public square and thrust himself into the vortex of th[ese] public issues he has voluntarily narrowed the zone of privacy that he is entitled to claim.”
Robreno said the public had a “significant interest” in the “stark contrast between Bill Cosby, the public moralist and Bill Cosby, the subject of serious allegations concerning improper (and perhaps criminal) conduct”.
The judge concludes: “The nature of the allegations – sex, drugs, seduction, etc – do not cloak this case, including the depositions of one of the parties, with an automatic, or per se, seal of silence.”
Valdivia
@PurpleGirl: I wish when reporting this story journalists would call ‘drugging women to have sex with them’ rape, since that’s what it is.
@OzarkHillbilly: Wow. So he admits under oath that he drugged this women to rape them. Incredible after all he denied this to be the case, when he had already said the opposite in court.
SFAW
@OzarkHillbilly:
So? It’s not as if Cosby spoke out against drugging women in order to rape them – THAT would be hypocritical.
Damn bleeding-heart judges.
ThresherK
“Lost in the first round”, from the Reuters link in the ThinkProgress link, seems to mean “did not advance out of group play”.
(Just to clear that up, because it confused me until I looked it up.)
Baud
@Valdivia:
I thought I heard some news outlets reporting that the women in that case admitted they took the drugs voluntarily.
Iowa Old Lady
@Betty Cracker: I used to think “jail is for little people” was a joke, but it’s the truth.
Re the measly Women’s Soccer prize, that graft money has to come from somewhere.
PurpleGirl
@OzarkHillbilly: I’m sorry I had forgotten that you posted about it earlier. I was just amazed when I heard — on NY1 — about the attorney’s complaint about the release of the deposition tape.
Valdivia
@Baud: Thanks for that clarification. I had not seen that. Sill it establishes a pattern about his m.o. which confirms what the women who were drugged without their knowledge accused him of.
ETA: There is also the issue of inability to consent if so drugged as to be unconscious.
MattF
@Baud: Cosby’s attorneys have been busy spreading that rumor, I’ll bet. “Oh, y’know, they wanted it.”
ThresherK
@SFAW: You can be “Yay, football!” and hate FIFA at the same time. It’s more than allowed, it’s encouraged.
I’ve been in one of that growing group since about a year before the South Africa world cup. The monetary figures not adding up was pretty damned evident even in 2009. And that’s going to look like a roaring success next to Qatar.
Baud
@Valdivia:
And I may have misheard. I only caught bits and pieces of the news on this.
SFAW
@ThresherK:
So? What does that have to do with anything (i.e., in my comment)? Where did I indicated that I had a problem with futbol (as played by either sex)?
Saying I’m not as anti-FIFA as Oliver is like saying I’m not as anti-reality as Fox or other wingnuts are.
Valdivia
@Baud: No worries. Monday’s are my news-blackhole day in which I only hear about things like 20 hours after they happened. On first reading the reports it seemed the media were going out of their way not to call it rape when it would be so clearly that if they were drugged in order to have sex with them when they otherwise would not have.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: A difference without distinction considering all he has said. The point to me is that by his own admission he bought the drugs for the express purpose of influencing women to have sex with him. What does one do when you find that the drugs you have don’t always bring about the intended result?
He has already justified to himself some truly repugnant behavior. It is a teensy tiny small further step to avail himself of one of the many date rape drugs available.
Phylllis
I read yesterday where Cosby is claiming he didn’t understand the question. Uh, then why didn’t you say ‘I don’t understand the question?’
Btw, if you get a chance to see the Glen Campbell doc I’ll Be Me, it’s worth your time.
JPL
@OzarkHillbilly: Cosby had a long time pattern of behavior of abuse, which he had to have help, covering up. Was it an open secret among his staff?
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
Too much has come out about Cosby even to play devil’s advocate.
But generally speaking, it’s not illegal or even immoral to engage in sex while under the influence so long as the parties retain the capacity to consent.
satby
@Phylllis:
I heard that was really touching.
BillinGlendaleCA
President Carter looks pretty good for a 90 year old. He’s on Morning Hoe.
raven
Baud
@raven:
My impression is that outside the U.S. and maybe Canada, interest in women’s sports falls precipitously.
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Well that experience will certainly age him.
ThresherK
@SFAW: Let me rephrase, because I probably left you the wrong impression (darned internet).
Many football fans don’t like FIFA because it’s not good for the game.
Soccer haters are jumping onto the whole FIFA-is-corrupt thing to simply further their hate of soccer. Ooh, no hands! It so “international! Many of them are pretty good at ignoring, say, the same kind of malfeasance in running the NCAA, or any of the USA’s “non profit” sports leagues.
(PS I knew off the bat that your first comment about the WWC on artificial turf was snark.)
raven
@Baud: Didn’t I hear that the Japanese woman that is the greatest women’s player in the world plays in the states?
Phylllis
@satby: It is. And he still (for the most part) had his playing chops right up until his last performance. It seems as if the playing and singing helped stave off the Alzheimer’s for him, for a time at least.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Hell, I feel older just watching it.
Valdivia
@raven: @Baud: I think it’s definitely true that in Latin America there is only now an acceptance and interest in female futbol, a realization that women can be just as good athletes as men. When I was growing up that wasn’t even the case.
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Technically, you are.
@raven:
Could be. Although you see that with the MLB also, and men soccer players here often go abroad.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud:
That is a key question. Between that and the understandable reluctance of many women to push this issue it is not hard to see why he is not in prison. Too many men find it easy to say, “Well, she took the drugs. Then she said ‘Yes’.” totally ignoring the likelihood that she never would have said yes without the drugs. And like I said, it is a small step to the next level.
All of which just brings me back to what I said at the very beginning: Bill Cosby’s career is toast. He will never again play anything more than a half empty night club on open mic nite.
And I do wonder, could an enterprising lawyer open a class action law suit for all the women he preyed upon (what we know is no doubt just the tip of the iceberg)? Is there a statute of limitations in civil law?
dedc79
The US men’s team made it out of the first round.
I’m glad to hear the finals were watched by a ton of people in the US. I watched with my whole family. But globally the men’s world cup brings in way way more revenue than the women’s cup. That’s in part because many of the most soccer crazed countries don’t care about women’s soccer. That seems like the reason why the payouts are smaller.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
There is and it’s usually shorter than in criminal law.
debbie
@Iowa Old Lady:
I believe it all started with Leona Helmsley believing she was too entitled to have to pay taxes, but this phrase has been adopted by the One Percenters to justify any of their bad actions (ie, “Accountability is for little people”). Surprising to see it persists, considering the mockery Helmsley later endured from her jail cell.
randy khan
@Phylllis: Unfortunately, it’s probably not true that performing helped with the Alzheimer’s. It’s more that stuff like that – it’s almost muscle memory – tends to go later than the rest. My mother was still singing hymns at church when it was pretty clear she didn’t really remember any people and otherwise wasn’t speaking.
Mind you, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be glad that an Alzheimer’s patient has that outlet. It’s something that makes people happy, and you should want to keep it as long as possible.
ThresherK
@raven: I was going to say “it’s a safe bet that she does”, but according to this list, four of the Japan team play on German clubs, two in France, and the remaining all in Japan.
I may have been thinking of Aye Sashima, from the 2011 team, who played on the Boston Breakers.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: OK
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
A half score and 367 days ago started my first blog Codpiece Hagiography at the URL of uncletomfoolery.blogspot.com. Gilliard had gone on a rant about Cosby….
My instincts seem prescient…
…
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly:
In general. I don’t know what the statute of limitations would be for the conduct Cosby is accused of.
SFAW
@ThresherK:
Thanks for clarifying, now I understand the underlying reason(s) for your comment.
Soccer’s OK by me, I’m much more a LAX fan, but soccer is not a “meh” for me. Got to see Pele play (live, in person), would like to have seen Garrincha play, etc. But I’m not a die-hard. May be one some day, but not highly likely.
Not sure if my dislike of FIFA is bandwagon-esque – don’t recall when I first became aware of their corruption, prob 4-5 years ago, maybe more – but John Oliver certainly got my attention with his rant.
PurpleGirl
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: Do you have a link for the Gilliard rant? The archive for pre-2007 material doesn’t seem to have a search feature.
ETA: Steve Gilliard, may he rest in peace and FTFY.
catclub
@Iowa Old Lady:
Actually, the graft money goes into FIFA, so if the prize was much bigger it would be FROM the graft money.
Lee
@raven:
Thanks for pointing that out. That is why the women get paid less than the men. It is all about the ad revenue.
Now if FIFA wanted to make a point, they could cover the difference with the billions in revenue they make. But then that would require them not to be greedy assholes.
raven
@Lee: Hold your breath.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: I kind of figured there would be one and as such I am sure any SoL cuts off at 7 years at the most (most SoLs are 3 years)
Keith G
Been raining lots in Houston. So much so, that this is my first “free day” (no work/no immediate issues) w/o rain in the forecast in a long while.
All this is to say, I finally can return to my free day activity of going to the Houston Zoo at 9 AM and walking for an hour. If you are a walker and live near a zoo (I’m 2 mi away), buy a yearly membership. It’s a fun way to walk. And if you are good, you can always buy a sno cone as a reward.
Our zoo’s new gorilla habitat is a good stop on a walking tour.
Betty Cracker
@Lee: I don’t think it’s quite that cut and dried. Yes, the men’s soccer events are more popular worldwide, but this year, the US Women’s World Cup team outperformed major men’s sporting events in terms of viewers. Delivering more eyeballs should translate into more sponsors and higher revenue. I suspect it’s not just the “Invisible Hand” that’s giving women’s sports the finger — it’s also a failure of the imagination on the part of sponsors and advertisers. And of course the greedy FIFA assholes play a role as well.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Keith G: I’m going to hike up to Amir’s Garden(that Amir sure does get arround) in Griffith Park either tomorrow or Thursday and then head south towards Mt. Hollywood; should be a good walk.
OzarkHillbilly
@Keith G: In STL, we are blessed. The Zoo is free. Of course, a hot dog is $17.83, but hey, pack a lunch!
raven
@Betty Cracker: “More popular”? It’s not even close. I watched every game I could of the WWC and I’d like to see them get more dough but there is no comparison between the two. It’s like the NBA and the WNBA.
JPL
@PurpleGirl: Through the magic of the google, I found this…
Of course, it always seems those who talk about personal responsibility seem to lack it the most. Bill Cosby is about to be hammered in court as a serial groper. His marriage vows lies in tatters. Yet, he wants to lecture single moms about their kids names
link.
I still miss Steve.
rikyrah
uh huh
uh huh
……………
A Study Documents the Paucity of Black Elected Prosecutors: Zero in Most States
By NICHOLAS FANDOS
JULY 7, 2015
WASHINGTON — Sixty-six percent of states that elect prosecutors have no blacks in those offices, a new study has found, highlighting the lack of diversity in the ranks of those entrusted to bring criminal charges and negotiate prison sentences.
About 95 percent of the 2,437 elected state and local prosecutors across the country in 2014 were white, and 79 percent were white men, according to the study, which was to be released on Tuesday by the San-Francisco-based Women Donors Network. By comparison, white men make up 31 percent of the population of the United States.
The numbers are being released as debate continues about racial imbalances in the criminal justice system in the wake of police-related deaths in Ferguson, Mo.; Staten Island; and Baltimore.
While the racial makeup of police forces across the country has been carefully documented, the diversity of prosecutors, who many law enforcement experts say exercise more influence over the legal system, has received little scrutiny. Prosecutors decide in most criminal cases whether to bring charges. And, because so many criminal cases end in plea bargains, they have a direct hand in deciding how long defendants spend behind bars.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/07/us/a-study-documents-the-paucity-of-black-elected-prosecutors-zero-in-most-states.html?rref=us&module=Ribbon&version=context®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&pgtype=article
Keith G
With the question, “Too much?”, Marc Maron shows how he is displaying a bit of memorabilia from his Obama interview.
Botsplainer
So Subway spokesdork Jared Fogle just got raided for kiddie porn – apparently wanted to share some imagery of young girls with some woman he was texting.
Evangelicals are relieved. At least he’s not gay.
Punchy
Two million dollars?! That’ll buy a lot of skillets and SOS scrubbing pads!
dedc79
@Betty Cracker: “more popular” doesn’t really do it justice. We are talking revenue in the billions vs millions.
The popularity of women’s soccer in the US is the exception not the rule. US viewership is the reason they’re getting as much as they are.
Betty Cracker
@raven: I’m not claiming an equivalence in popularity overall. I’m saying that if X event delivers eyeballs on the scale of Y event but fails to attract comparable ad dollars, there might be factors at play beyond free market principles.
On the popularity question, women’s sports might do better if female athletes weren’t held as inferior and not worthy of notice from toddlerhood onward. My kid played little league softball from age 5 and is currently playing at the high school level, and the difference in how girls and boys are treated in terms of uniforms, equipment, staffing, etc., are appalling.
JPL
@Botsplainer: Wow! I hope he didn’t spend all the money, he made through the commercials. He’s going to need a good lawyer
Keith G
While I am typing about Maron, let me add that his interview today is with Laura Jane Grace. Ms. Grace started as, well, let me quote from the WTF site:
It’s a very good interview, but then, I am quite a fan of both Maron and Grace.
chopper
@Botsplainer:
first cliff huxtable and now subway jared. what is it with hoagie-loving guys being total sleazeballs?
rikyrah
About Bernie calling the President’s UER numbers false
…………………………………………………………………..
All of a sudden…the way we measured unemployment isn’t good enough once the Black man, who faced unimaginable roadblocks, gets the UER down to numbers not seen in a long while.
Phuck this muthaphucka.
gelfling545
@PurpleGirl: Do we actually have ticker tapes any more? Would they have to generate some artificial ticker tape? A parade is a fine idea in any case.
Rex Tremendae
The US Men’s team advanced out of the first round.
Anyway, my question is: did the sponsors anticipate these kind of ratings in the US? What did FoxSports charge? What will they charge next time?
Botsplainer
@chopper:
Cosby was ALWAYS the Near who made white folks feel at ease. He knew his place, did clean comedy with goofy, minstrel-style facial expressions and said “puddin'” in a non-aggressive, non-thug style.
Maybe it all comes down to “women don’t like sellouts and candyasses”.
EconWatcher
@Betty Cracker:
I think women’s world cup delivered more eyeballs in the US than the men’s, but not worldwide, correct?
Amir Khalid
I don’t know about you, but this seems worrying to me.
chopper
@Botsplainer:
this should be a rotating tag line.
Paul in KY
@Baud: Even so, he admits that the only reason he gave them the drugs was to screw them & that was why he obtained them in 1st place & it dovetails with all the other recollections we’ve heard from multiple women.
Patricia Kayden
@Baud: Why would women take drugs given to them by Bill Cosby? I have a hard time believing that they took the drugs in order to have Cosby sexually assault them while they were unconscious.
raven
@EconWatcher:nearly a billion people tuned into the final alone in 2010
Paul in KY
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: Steve was spot-on about a lot of people. Miss his voice.
Edit: FTFY!
Punchy
@Amir Khalid: I fully expect 2 or 3 of them to Shawshank their way out within the week. Then they’ll make a run for the Canadian border while 100+ zoologists search for them with Apple’s poop-tracking app.
Keith G
@Amir Khalid: Bear was trying out to be percussionist in a rock band, Kenai and the Grizzlies.
Dontcha know.
Paul in KY
@Keith G: Anybody who lives in NOLA should definitely walk Audubon Park. Man, that is a beautiful place!
Paul in KY
@raven: Good analogy. Do think that women’s soccer will become more popular in other countries than women’s basketball. It is already more popular here than WNBA, college, etc.
Paul in KY
@Betty Cracker: In terms of inherent physical talent, most are ‘inferior’, Due, of course, to the sexual dimorphism that our species has. However, the ‘inferiority’ should not matter a wit in the funding & coaching of the athletes, IMO.
MattF
@Amir Khalid: It’s also a bit odd that the ‘visitor from Maryland’ was Robin Ficker. He actually has a Wikipedia page, and, frankly, he’s just a teensy little bit weird. A ‘conservative activist’ in very-blue Montgomery County MD, and,… well, read the section in Wikipedia entitled ‘Sports heckler’.
Paul in KY
@Keith G: Saw Against Me! at Bonnaroo this year. Wow, what a set. I tell you, she can play the absolute crap out of a guitar. Came out later & did a song with Tears for Fears. Crowd was wild for her/band.
Cervantes
@Betty Cracker:
Sorry to hear that. She deserves better — which should go without saying, but apparently does not.
Paul in KY
@Amir Khalid: Oh shit! They’re on to us!
Amir Khalid
@MattF:
His name is Ficker?
MattF
@Amir Khalid: No kidding.
Betty Cracker
@EconWatcher: I’m sure that’s the case — overwhelmingly so, no doubt. But the US WWC team broadcast attracted more viewers than major men’s sporting events in the US while apparently failing to garner comparable sponsorships and revenue.
Cervantes
@Paul in KY:
Hey, you’re not Bobby Riggs, are you?
dedc79
@Betty Cracker: It was a conditional event. The ratings ended up great b/c the US made the finals. Had it been Germany v. Japan the ratings in the US (and most of the globe) would’ve been abysmal. By comparison, a billion plus people will watch the World Cup finals no matter who is playing (and a ton of Americans will watch the Superbowl no matter who is playing).
In this instance, the sponsors probably did get a good deal on a somewhat undervalued product, but I think you’re way too fixated on this single data point of US viewership of the final match.
OzarkHillbilly
@Paul in KY:
Sounds kinds funny coming from an “inherently inferior” man who is incapable of bearing children.
;-) I know you didn’t mean it that way, but I could not resist
Gin & Tonic
@Patricia Kayden: The pills in question were a popular recreational drug back in those days. Or so I’ve heard, at any rate. So having a popular entertainer say “hey, I’ve got some ludes, want a few?” could easily lead to a positive response.
shell
So Betty, how’d the watermelon and vodka work out?
Amir Khalid
@MattF:
I wonder if he’s ever been to Germany.
Paul in KY
@Cervantes: Women, in general, are not as athletically gifted in the sports humans generally play. This is due almost completely to being shorter, not as strong, etc. etc. That’s just a fact of life. Completely due to human males generally being significantly larger than their female brethren (unlike horses, for example). That is called ‘sexual dimorphism’ and happens in just about all primate species, polar bears, spotted hyenas (females here being significantly larger), killer whales, etc. etc.
I’m not slamming women, just acknowledging reality.
Paul in KY
@OzarkHillbilly: Agree. If keeping the species going was left to males, we’d have been extinct many thousands of years ago :-)
PurpleGirl
@JPL: Thank you.
Sorry for the delayed response but I’d fallen a sleep on my recliner.
Betty Cracker
@dedc79: I’m not “fixated” on it; I just find it interesting. The reason I repeated it more than once is because other commenters kept responding to that point with variations of, “But men’s soccer attracts billllllyuns of viewers worldwide.”
@shell: I made the watermelon aguas frescas, which turned out great, but I didn’t get a chance to try it with vodka. Maybe tonight!
Cervantes
@Paul in KY:
I’m pretty sure we all know you weren’t trying to be a jerk. Not sure why Bobby Riggs came to mind!
Raises questions: Are there, or can someone design, or should there be, sports in which various physical differences are neutralized?
EconWatcher
@Paul in KY:
Differences between men and women can affect the viewing experiece of sports, but not always in one direction.
It’s a cliche but true to say that women’s tennis has often been more interesting to watch than men’s, because the power serve can make the game as interesting as watching paint dry. And in this sport, there doesn’t appear to be a wage discrepancy in favor of men, or at least a big one. http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2013/08/05/maria-sharapova-tops-list-of-the-worlds-highest-paid-female-athletes/
On the other hand, women’s professional tennis has been around much longer than other women’s professional sports, and maybe the others will start getting more of a fair shake from viewers in the future.
Valdivia
@rikyrah: I must have missed something. Is this a thing now? That we have people on our side saying the same things that the crazies say on the other side?
JPL
@PurpleGirl: If Steve knew in 2005, then the industry has been covering for him. I’d like to know how much money he made in the last ten years.
EconWatcher
@Cervantes:
By the way, I understand that in ultra-marathons (races of 100 miles, sometimes longer), women should physiologically be able to beat men. On the other hand, I don’t think they’ll soon be a spectator sport! http://www.runnersworld.com/trail-running-training/why-women-rule-ultrarunning
Lee
@Betty Cracker:
That’s unfortunate. Here in North Texas (probably the epicenter of girl’s soccer), while football is still king, the girl’s sports are not slighted. They get new uniforms every other year, equipment when needed, etc.
Paul in KY
@EconWatcher: I think women’s volleyball is more interesting to watch than the men’s. Probably for about same reason as tennis.
Amir Khalid
@Paul in KY:
Women not being as tall or as strong as men doesn’t make, say, women’s track and field or women’s tennis (or court sports in general) any less watchable than the men’s sport. A woman can compete in motor sports on equal terms with men; that only a few get to do it is all about that sport’s male-dominated social milieu.
There is absolutely no reason women should not hold management positions in men’s sports the way men do in women’s sports. But again, the social milieu …
OzarkHillbilly
@EconWatcher: Women are also capable of, pound for pound, carrying larger loads.
Paul in KY
@Cervantes: Would have to be a physical sport that uses hand/eye coordination mostly & physical size does not matter in least. Maybe like archery, yet the device is not hard to pull or aim, so size/strength differences would not come into play.
I think some shooting sports are co-ed at highest level.
dedc79
@Paul in KY: Agreed. Both sports are at their most exciting when there are long rallies. And the men’s versions have gotten so dependent on aces/spikes that there don’t seem to be as many rallies.
Cervantes
@Valdivia:
“Same things”?
Economic measures — statistical methodology — even science itself — all need to be challenged so that techniques, and outcomes, improve. To put it mildly, not all critiques are illegitimate; each one should be evaluated on its own merits.
Lee
@Paul in KY:
I remember reading years ago that women’s fine motor skills developed faster than men’s.
ChiGail
@JPL:
Thanks for the link. I was just thinking of Steve this morning. FTFY!
Cervantes
@Amir Khalid:
All good points, thanks.
Paul in KY
@Amir Khalid: I never said they were inherently ‘less watchable’. Motor sports is a sport that women should have more opportunity in. There is, however, sometimes a strength advantage to be had in that sport (when repeatedly turning a wheel that does not have power steering, holding the steering wheel steady when it wants to jump around due to the terrain being crossed, leaning into turns & taking G-forces, etc.) and if you were a woman who wanted to compete at highest level, I would advise you to be as physically fit as you can be & to work on upper body strength.
scav
It’s not as though people don’t watch events or games because of the inherent physical qualities of athletes not present. “I’m not watching the (teams pulled at utter random, forgive me) the Lions/Dolphins game because the 1985 Seahawks would have utterly destroyed them!” or “I don’t watch basketball because those guys would be flattened by a single punch from a Heavyweigh Boxer.” There’s more going on in the behavior.
Randy Khan
@MattF: “A teensy little bit weird” is awfully kind.
gelfling545
@Gin & Tonic: It is not unknown for people to trade sex for drugs. It appears that Cosby had more than one type of sleazy behavior in his personal life. He appears to be confessing to the only slightly less hideous part, possibly in a vain (I hope) attempt to make the rest go away for a confession on a drugs for sex scenario.
SFAW
@ChiGail: and others
When I first came to this joint, after having read Gilliard for a while, I couldn’t understand why so many persons here hated the Yankees. (Not that the Yankees weren’t eminently hateable, but it seemed to be more prevalent here.)
gelfling545
I would like to mention that the Buffalo Common Council stepped up & did the right thing today. The area in the Niagara River formerly known as Squaw Island has been renamed Unity Island by unanimous vote. A small step but a good one.
Bill Murray
@Betty Cracker: well since the payout of prize money by FIFA comes from the worldwide money, that comparison seems apt. The prize money paid out by FIFA is a much higher percentage of the money brought in for the women than for the men. It seems probable that FIFA paid out more in prize money to the women’s teams than they took in for the tournament
Steve in the ATL
@EconWatcher:
Women’s golf is fun to watch as well. I can relate a lot more to their shots than to the men hitting 200 yard 8 irons.
Cervantes
@gelfling545:
That is good news! Thanks for reporting!
ThresherK
@SFAW: That’s cool. I remember some fun times watching the old New England Blazers back in Worcester.
So. who better than an Englishman to bring the woefulness that is FIFA to the mainstream of America’s attention? John Oliver, perhaps, is saying what millions of Britons are thinking, and since they invented it…
Brachiator
Is this before, or after bribes?
Felonius Monk
For those that still think women aren’t as capable, our friendly Wonkette is all in your face today:
Paul in KY
@gelfling545: Excellent. That word is a pejorative & uncouth slur.
AxelFoley
@rikyrah:
Fuck Bernie right in his eye.
Corner Stone
@gelfling545:
But what about our heritage and pride? Where will this PC madness end?
Valdivia
@Cervantes: I am not disputing that. Excellent to have a discussion. It would be more useful for that discussion if the framing of it was not an echo of some of the craziest claims of the 2012 election, i.e. that the President is being untruthful about unemployment numbers, to hide the reality of the situation. Implying bad faith on his part.
I am only seeing a report from the Washington Times that paints said comments as I stated above, if there is a report that presents the comments in a different way I am happy to say I was wrong.
Corner Stone
I’m not the biggest fan of the NBA, but you could not pay me to watch the WNBA.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Paul in KY:
Perhaps the problem is not that men are naturally superior in sports, but that men invented most of the sports currently being played, which forces women to adapt to sports that they are not naturally suited for. Claiming that it’s a “natural advantage” is like claiming that women are naturally better athletes because they can perform feats on the balance beam that men physically can’t.
Cervantes
@Valdivia:
In that case may I gently suggest never taking the Washington Times seriously?
In the world of bad, worse, and worst newspapers, it’s among the worstest.
cokane
While the USA may have been watching the shit out of the women’s final, many other soccer-first countries appeared to not care at all. I live in Panama and it wasn’t even televised — but people were watching the shit out of the Americas Cup.
Valdivia
@Cervantes: I never take them seriously, I detest reading them. Unfortunately all the right wing crazies are using the story as confirmation (even the liberal Bernie Sanders) that the administration has been lying about unemployment like they said. If Sanders in fact didn’t say that the Labor Dept numbers are a ruse then I was wrong but I am not seeing reports contradicting that.
ETA people at the event actually tweeted that, so whatever the WT framing, that was his quote. Again to my mind not a felicitous way to bring up an important discussion of how we best measure unemployment. YMMV though.
Origuy
In orienteering, the women’s courses are about 80% of the length of the men’s, at the elite level. The intent is that the winning times are about the same, and it usually works out that way. There are three distances in international competition, Sprint, Middle, and Long. In the Sprint length, the winning times are under 15 minutes; in Middle, about 25; and in Long, 80 for the women and 100 for the men. These are for ages 21-35. The technical difficulty (how complex the navigation is) is the same for both.
ETA. The top of the top of the women can probably run the long course about as well as the men, but below that the strength falls off rapidly.
Mike in NC
@Cervantes: When I worked in DC, we called it the Washington Moon, as the paper was owned by the far right wing Unification Church of South Korea.
Mike J
@cokane: I was really hoping for England to do well. My hope was it would make a dent in the number of cab drivers I hear who say football is for men, girls should play netball (basketball).
I don’t think it’s had major impact yet, but everybody likes beating Germany. Another decade of success (and old people dying) may make some progress.
raven
@Origuy: And I know plenty of people who like women’s hoop because they play “the way the game should be played”. That is shorthand for “they can’t jam so the have better skills. That is great and I’m happy they play, that doesn’t mean I watch it.
catclub
Since it is an open thread:
Slate says:
What exactly did Ron Paul DO for the GOP? Cause a lot of intra-party strife in caucus states?
That was an article by Jamelle Bouie, who is usually better. I will assume he did not write that headline/teaser.
Amir Khalid
@Mike J:
Netball is a quite different sport from basketball.
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: FWIW Sanders has long disagreed with the way the official unemployment rate is calculated and reported.
ETA: It will never be reported that way though.
Paul in KY
@Valdivia: You should never read/believe anything put out by The Washington Times.
Mike J
@Amir Khalid: I’m aware, but the two are related and I’ve always found it easier when talking to USians to just gloss it over.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus: Thanks, I had no idea this was a fight he’s been on for a while. It is hard to contextualize his long record on this if that’s not apparently what he said in the speech (a nice frame would have been: I have always thought we measure this the wrong way), and since his speeches will get reported and quoted by people who attend them as “Sanders said Obama BLS numbers are a ruse”.
Because I am a dreamer I would like dem candidates to frame things in ways that do not repeat or echo GOP talking points and in the end undermine our causes, like in this case, what we hear and will hear is Obama is lying about unemployment.
@Paul in KY: Yes, I know. I was not quoting that rag as an authoritative source. I used it as an example of how Sanders words are being reported and used to bolster the nutcase argument that Obama has been lying about unemployment.
Gin & Tonic
@Amir Khalid: Right. Basketball is exciting.
Paul in KY
@Mnemosyne (tablet): People, men/women are probably equally able to be in optimum shape and have basically the same innate athletic ability. The ‘advantages’ are the extra height, reach, upper body strength, etc, that guys get (most of them) just from being guys. That’s the sexual dimorphism. Just about all the sports we engage in reward those. Some don’t.
As for the balance beam, I’ve never seen a 5’2″ world-class male gymnast attempt it. He might be pretty damn good at it. We’ll never know.
Betty Cracker
@catclub: It’s not an absurd parallel, IMO, if the points he uses to support it bear scrutiny (which I don’t know for sure). Supposedly, Ron Paul roped libertarians who would have nominated fringe candidates for quixotic, ticket-splitting runs into the GOP. If Sanders can do the same with followers of Dr. Stein, that’s all to the good for the Democrats, right?
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: Yeah, Sanders isn’t doing a very good job of adjusting to the presidential candidate frame. He still speaks like the independent socialist senator; in some ways, that can be refreshing, but it isn’t going to get him any institutional support.
Mike J
@Omnes Omnibus:
And just a year ago he was complaining that the”real” unemployment rate was 12.6%. Now he’s complaining that the “real” rate is 10.5%. And let’s not forget where Sanders got those numbers. DoL prints U6 every time they print U3. It’s not fair, hell it’s not honest to say that it’s not being reported.
All of the headlines are about Bernie calling Obama a liar. Twitchy doesn’t give a shit about statistical methodology.
Paul in KY
@raven: Sometimes when I watch a WNBA game, it can appear sloppier than a women’s college game. That didn’t seem right, so I pondered it.
After pondering it, I came to conclusion that the defense is so much better in WNBA than it is in college that a lot more is being contested & that much more intense play contributes to the sometimes sloppy-appearing play.
Those WNBA ladies are really going at it.
Paul in KY
@Valdivia: Apologize for stating that. Saw your response up above. Was really stating it for anyone, not just you (who I expected knew that already).
Brachiator
@Cervantes:
Why?
@Paul in KY
Lots of qualifiers here. “In general” allows for all kinds of exceptions, and “athletically gifted” doesn’t always mean much in terms of sports competitions. I don’t know that males have an advantage over females in shooting or dressage.
Also, sexual dimorphism is much more complicated than you let on here, and there are areas important to other animal species that are irrelevant to humans. For example, in many species the male has larger canines than the female, but biting is not an Olympic sport. Not yet.
You also sneak in the example of female spotted hyenas, which demonstrates that sexual dimorphism does not always confer advantages to males.
The main point here is that even in different human groups (and primates), sexual dimorphism isn’t always significant and may not have that much to do with athletic performance.
Also, as an aside, how and why sexual dimorphism evolves is amazingly complicated. Less sexual dimorphism in arboreal primates than terrestrial species (e.g. gibbons). Species with harems (e.g. gorillas) show greater sexual dimorphism than monogamous promiscuous species (chimps, humans, bonobos).
Again, you have to be cautious when trying to use scientific “fact” in making definitive statements about human social behaviors, which is what sport ultimately is.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mike J: I don’t disagree with anything you are saying. I just wanted to point out that Sanders didn’t just wake up and start taking shots at unemployment numbers as an attack on Obama – no matter how it is being reported.
Betty Cracker
@Omnes Omnibus: I wish I had time to watch the video in which Sanders supposedly calls Obama a liar on unemployment numbers. I have a feeling his actual words don’t match the wingnut reportage…
Mike J
@Omnes Omnibus: It just adds on to the reasons why I won’t support somebody who is not a Democrat to be the leader of the Democratic party.
Democrats can disagree with each other, but have an obligation to not hurt the party. Bernie’s only obligation is to Bernie. He doesn’t have to worry about what’s best for the party or the country.
raven
@Paul in KY: I’m sure. The Lady Dogs have been really good for years (even though I think Landers is a fucking moron). I played with and against 4 time Olympic Gold Medalist Teresa Edwards (who was 1,000 time better than I could ever dream about being) and her teams were really something. I just personally don’t really care to watch the women’s game anymore. I know lots of other folks who cannot watch men’s college basketball. It’s all a matter of choice.
Cervantes
@Valdivia:
Not sure why I thought you were taking that article seriously.
As you were not, there’s nothing more to say about it!
Imagine that!
Nor are those “right wing crazies” alone.
Cervantes
@Betty Cracker:
Sanders says X. Right-wing media contrive to convert X into an attack on Obama. Obama’s most mindless partisans take that attack seriously. And PDQ here we are.
It would be hilarious if it were not so pitiful.
(To save you time: the section on unemployment begins 20:20 into his speech in Maine. If you listen, you’ll find that my “pitiful” should really be “idiotic.”)
Cervantes
@Brachiator:
Why what?
Paul in KY
@Brachiator: That’s why I used a lot of caveats!
Cervantes
@Valdivia:
You may be right. I think what Sanders should do is campaign entirely in mime.
Not actually saying anything may be the only way to stop the Daily Caller and the Washington Times from misrepresenting what he says.
That may have to do, until we invent a method by which people can actually listen to recordings of what he said and judge his words for themselves. But I’m a dreamer, for who knows when that might happen?
Paul in KY
@raven: That’s cool that you got to play with Ms. Edwards. Make a Mt. Rushmore of women’s players, and she’s on it.
raven
@Paul in KY: We were also at a “Challenge Camp” in the mountains. They had an old style zip line that had a car tire thread on the cable as a break. I slammed into it and damaged my shoulder. I always chuckled when I thought of what Landers would have said if he had known she was doing it!
Janet Harris was on that team too. She grew up playing with Agguire and Terry Cummings on the Chicago playgrounds.
Brachiator
@Cervantes: Why do you think the question should be raised? What’s the point?
Brachiator
@Paul in KY:
There are a couple of posts in which you appear to want to definitively state that sexual dimorphism is a reason for performance differences.
But consider this:
I wonder. Women, generally, have a lower center of gravity than men. This is might confer an advantage over men, even your hypothetical 5’2″ world-class male gymnast.
Also, men and women’s gymnastics showcase different skills. And for a number of years, coaches have selected for a particular body type in female gymnasts in order to get the best results. This deliberate selection of a specific body type is not really related to sexual dimorphism.
So, I understand what you are getting at, but it is only part of a larger story in which a number of other factors come into play. As when you noted the following:
This reminds me of friends who far prefer college football to the pro game even though older male athletes are presumably physically superior to their college counterparts. There are different elements of the game that seem to be better at what on the surface appears to be a lower level of performance.
Keith G
@Valdivia:
One of the interesting things about comparing actions and responses from one presidential administration to another, is that each specific presidential administration has room to change how it categorizes and how it counts certain things – as well as appoint administrators who are sympathetic to the White House’s view of the world. I am quite sure that all administrations have used some of this “wiggle room” to its advantage. All.
And guess what…All those who find a reason to quibble with a presidential administration’s actions usually get around to point this out. As often as not, it gets the same type of coverage as other bureaucratic statistical info. Meaning not much.
Remember the stories in 2012 about unemployment stat releases being manipulated to aid the White House? That type of stuff has low impact and goes away quickly.
Tenar Darell
@Gin & Tonic: He was roofie-ing women by slipping the drugs into their drinks. It is unclear from his testimony which that was, but based in the over 40 women’s testimony, the drugs were NOT consensual, they were his method. The drugs were the way he managed to rape them all.
Cervantes
@Paul in KY:
The siting of “Mount Rushmore” was an unmitigated evil.
Paul in KY
@Brachiator: Lower center of gravity is probably a help in the balance beam. Especially in staying on it. Greater strength and jumping ability might help you with the stuff you have to do when getting off the damned thing.
I do think sexual dimorphism is the basic/underlying reason for almost all performance differences in those sports that reward people who are bigger, taller, and faster & stronger. It is certainly the reason for males doing better in track & field.
Cervantes
@Brachiator:
I raised them and I think the ensuing comments speak for themselves.
Is some additional justification needed? I confess to not having any!
Paul in KY
@Cervantes: This Mt. Rushmore I was referring to is more metaphorical ;-)
Paul in KY
@Tenar Darell: I think Gin & Tonic was just surmising that maybe they initially agreed, not knowing at all that raping them later was the reason he was offering them.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: I have a question along those lines. Don’t people like to do coke or some other drugs to make the sex better?
If that’s the case, and if that was the situation for some of the women who have come forward, then I don’t see how we can say that sex was not consensual in those instances.
I also wonder if there aren’t about a million professional athletes who have provided drugs to the women that pursue them, and then had sex. I wonder if there are any nervous athletes out there.
Paul in KY
@WaterGirl: I think with the cocaine (only having done it once & not having sex at the time I was on it, I’m not an expert on cocaine), the participants (both or more) are usually conscious. Very, very conscious.
Kathleen
@Cervantes: I am not a golfer, but I’m thinking golf would be one sport in which physically, men would not necessarily have an advantage over a woman. But I’m just sitting here making shit up so there’s that.
And I’m with Betty. Disparate of treatment between men and women in sports is just wrong.
Cervantes
@Paul in KY:
Not to worry, I understood that!
And yet if you hold it up to the light just so, and squint, my comment may impinge upon the use of the metaphor as well!
Paul in KY
@Cervantes: OK (squints, holds it up & turns it around to the left & then sideways a bit), Oh, now I see it!
WaterGirl
@Paul in KY: I haven’t read a single article about the Cosby thing. These women weren’t conscious when the sex/rape occurred?
Paul in KY
@WaterGirl: I wasn’t there but I think so. If not unconscious, then semi-conscious.