This is the seal of upstate New York town Whitesboro. The name alone gives one pause. But the seal–of a white man choking a Native American–is even more questionable. And even better, the mayor of the town has argued that it’s not problematic at all:
“I could understand why people would have concern about it. But, [as with] everything else, I think you have to take all the facts into consideration. And if people take the time to do that and they reach out to us, or they do the research themselves, it’s actually a very accurate depiction of friendly wrestling matches that took place back in those days.”
Yup. Just a friendly wrestling match. And Bill Cosby is still America’s treasure.
Team Blackness also discussed the LA Times getting a reporter to cover Black Twitter, one quarter of civilians this year that have been killed by police were mentally ill, and South Carolina’s Senate finally rules to remove the Confederate flag from the statehouse.
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dmsilev
Are we sure they aren’t simply dancing a tango?
EdTheRed
Wow…it’s a real-life version of the South Park flag…
Joel
Is this the mayor?. I know, different state. But in the same vicinity (ideologically, too, apparently).
Howlin Wolfe
That’s disgusting – that’s not a wrestling hold, and it sure isn’t friendly.
Tree With Water
Fun Fact: the white supremacist on that flag is none other than Jebediha Springfield’s brother, Hank Springfield… and to shorn him from the flag would be tantamount to cutting the head off Jeb’s statue and burying it in the cold ground.
beltane
According to Wikipedia, the town was named after a Hugh White, a man who had been adopted into the Oneida nation and later founded a settlement in the area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitesboro,_New_York
That picture on the seal does not look to be depicting a friendly wrestling match, though. Maybe it was a Green Balloons type of situation.
canuckistani
It looks more like Pawnee, Indiana to me.
Snark Based Reality
Ready to call bullshit on this blog post:
“The village is named after Hugh White, an early settler who had been adopted into the Oneida tribe and built the first permanent settlement there in 1784-85.”
You couldn’t even be bothered to check the Googles first before launching into “RACISTS!@!@”.
Town seals are pretty all laughably horrible from an art viewpoint up here. Some guy or kid did it decades ago.
This is upstate NY, not Alabama. Kindly fuck off with your rural stereotypes and shocking wrong assumptions about the area in question.
Love, Upstate NYer.
Patricia Kayden
Wowzer! I could understand how this type of seal came about one hundred plus years ago but don’t get why anyone would defend it now. It’s obviously offensive and racist. Just like I don’t understand why people defend “Washington Redskins” as a name for a football team.
shell
Just have it changed so it really does look like a friendly wrestling match. Course then, somebody will complain that it looks too gay.
Betty Cracker
@canuckistani: Haha, that was my first thought too. The murals!
Cervantes
@shell:
The complaint was first raised in the late ’70s and the village did alter the seal at that point.
Chyron HR
What’s the problem? It clearly depicts Sadako (or “Samara”) throttling Satan.
Eric U.
@Cervantes: what was it before, a white guy pulling on a noose or something?
Cervantes
@Howlin Wolfe:
In the town’s history there really is an account of a friendly wrestling match between the founder, Hugh White, and an Oneida.
The name per se is innocuous. The original name was White’s Town.
Cervantes
@Eric U.:
No, I think it was a slightly different wrestling hold.
Punchy
That cracker is seconds away from near certain takedown points, and will likely get some back points if he completes the leg sweep.
Cervantes
@Snark Based Reality:
Good luck.
Walker
@Snark Based Reality:
Having grown up in the South, and now living in Upstate NY I can say this: you are in denial if you think Upstate NY is less racist than the South.
Waldo
The “friendly wrestling match” explanation makes the “Southern heritage” BS seem downright erudite. Good goin’, Mayor.
Bobby B.
@Betty Cracker: Isn’t there one with an Indian being “executed” by cannon at point blank range?
SatanicPanic
@Snark Based Reality: Lol, so why not change it then?
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Snark Based Reality:
It’s a white guy with his hands around an Indian’s neck. I don’t see how you get “friendly wrestling match” from that.
Tree With Water
“Representative Mick Mulvaney, Republican of South Carolina, said that while he supported removing the flag in South Carolina, he opposed the Democrats’ effort to have the flag banned on federal lands”.
Am I confused in thinking this guy has got his own argument backwards?
Paul in KY
@Howlin Wolfe: It was ‘pro’ wrestling…
Waldo
@Paul in KY: I guess we should be grateful it doesn’t depict the Indian getting whacked with a folding chair.
mdblanche
@canuckistani: Exactly what I was thinking.
JDM
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): what was the phrase? “the only friendly Indian is a dead Indian”.
Tree With Water
If you’re looking to drive a truck through something, this might interest you:
Per republican legislation, “..Some items with confederate symbolism could be sold at federal cemeteries, but only after the National Park Service determines they have approved historical or cultural content..”.
R.I.P. James Watt, “worse than a worthless bastard”.
Cervantes
@Tree With Water:
Roast in Perdition?
A Ghost To Most
@Snark Based Reality:
As an escapee from western upstate NY (same neighborhood as Tim McVeigh), and whose family were McVeigh supporters, some of those rural stereotypes are true. WNY is one of the most racist areas I have ever lived in (and I have lived in 8 states, including TexAss and Missifuckingsippi.
Matt McIrvin
The earliest version of the Massachusetts seal, from the late 17th century, had a cartoon talk balloon coming out of the Indian’s mouth saying “Come over and help us”. Better than showing a guy choking him, I guess, but it was a bit self-serving.
Woodrow/asim
@A Ghost To Most: Thirded. I’m African-American, and went to college in Western Mass from Upstate SC (home of Bob Jones, to give you an idea of my hometown’s racial issues…).
After some interactions/altercations w/people from Upstate NY in my 1st year, I decided to avoid that area like the plague. I’ve mellowed out since — my white Partner was born up that way, and she + her parents moved when she was very young.
But anyone saying that rural racism is only a Southern US problem hasn’t been through what I have, to be damned sure.
Germy Shoemangler
Change the name from Whitesboro to Whitesplain.
A Ghost To Most
@Germy Shoemangler:
FTFY
Snark Based Reality
Anyone who thinks a town bordering Utica is as racist as large chunks of the south has a serious perspective issue.
Or are we going to play the game of “I had a redneck relative who dropped an N bomb who lived in upstate NY so…”.
Not much left to discuss here. Now if you excuse me my fellow KKK chapter members are meeting in Ithaca tonight to discuss how awesome the confederate flag is.
A Ghost To Most
@Snark Based Reality: whitesplaining indeeed.
JGabriel
Whitesboro Mayor Patrick O’Connor:
Even assuming that’s true (and, frankly, I don’t): Dude, when was the last time you researched another towns seal? If it takes research to show that your seal isn’t racist, then it’s time for a new fucking seal, jackass.
A Ghost To Most
I didn’t have A relative who dropped the N-bomb. I have a whole family in WNY of stone-cold racists who have ties to the Klan and Christian Identity groups. Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
That is why I now live in Colorado (which has its own problems). 1800 miles between here and there is barely enough.
Porco Rosso
Extra points if the seal is embroidered on a smallpox blanket. [/shitty gallows humor]
burnspbesq
@Snark Based Reality:
The people of Whitesboro suffer enough from being adjacent to Utica, without having this shit piled upon them.
/s/ Union College grad, born in Albany
Tree With Water
@A Ghost To Most: My neighbor told me he once moved to NYC because it was the furthest spot in America he could separate himself from his first wife and still make a decent living.
Gin & Tonic
@burnspbesq: Hey, Utica is home to the F.X. Matt brewery, a great place to visit.
A Ghost To Most
@Tree With Water:
It frees me from the obligation to go home for family get-togethers. I tried to move back to WNY in 1996; I lasted 6 weeks before I had to get out again. I haven’t been back since 2007. The area I grew up in is near the Alabama Swamp (Iroquois NWR). The name is fitting.
RaflW
@Snark Based Reality: Here’s the thing: I don’t give a crap if the flag was once an innocent drawing. It looks like a lynching now, to modern eyes.
Undoing racism is about impacts, not about intentions (oh they were so good back then….)
Corner Stone
Oh, Irony! If only the GOP hadn’t taken you out back and shot you dead, dead. Maybe then you could visit us once again.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Snark Based Reality:
So you can keep your town seal showing a white guy choking an American Indian as long as your area is marginally less racist than the Deep South?
You might want to pick up that bar before someone trips on it.
Cervantes
@RaflW:
You can say the image is offensive to your eyes, sure — but, without knowing the relevant local history, can you say it was a “racist” design?
Matt McIrvin
@efgoldman: And aside from the seal being weird and racist, Massachusetts is one of the many states with boring flags that just have the state seal on them.
We ought to be able to do better. Just put a turkey or scrod on it or something.
Eric U.
on further inspection, don’t they both have their hands on each other’s necks? Anyway, still looks racist to me. And I have to say that living in Pennsyltucky, I really don’t think rural New York is much different than around here, which is stone cold racist. We have plenty of white supremacists. During the 2004 election, there were World Church of the Creator signs intermingled with the other campaign signs. They had changed their name at that point, but apparently the crowned “W” made the signs too useful to throw away.
Ella in New Mexico
@burnspbesq:
I was born in Utica and spent my childhood in another nearby tiny town in Upstate New York, and I resemble that comment!! lol
No, seriously, I truly wonder if anyone who lives there even really noticed this stupid seal. Most folks I grew up with were not racist people, just maybe a little apolitical. But now there’s really no excuse.
Geezus, just change the fucking thing and knock off the ridiculous “they’re just friendly wrestlers” crap, Whitesboro. At the very least, have them doing something more equal, like this symbol REAL wrestlers put on t-shirts
http://www.cafepress.com/mf/22391027/wrestle3_sticker?productId=172237300
beltane
If the people in this town had any sense, they would sponsor a contest to design a new town seal, maybe get the local high school involved. Living in a town of that size myself, I am aware that people with sense may be few and far between. Whatever the intent of the seal was originally, it is racist and violent today.
Keith G
The view, looking down our nose, is freekin awesome.
guachi
Elon James White, your name gives me pause. Are you a racist? It would be irresponsible not to baselessly speculate.
beltane
@efgoldman: How about a clam? Or, going by stereotypes, a Volvo.
A Humble Lurker
@Cervantes:
Yes?
jl
@efgoldman: I think a nice lobster roll would make a great state symbol for seal or flag. Bring in some tourist business, probably.
On another front, I just found out California was the go to state in House GOP effort to stop removal of Confederate battle flag from national park service properties. Rep. Ken Calvert introduced the amendment to reverse, and apparently he says he was asked to by House GOP leadership. Calvert represents the western edge of Inland Empire in California, a slice wedged in between Orange County on the west, and San Barnardino and Riverside on the east. It include Yorba Linda. associated with Nixon,l which I guess is appropriate.
schrodinger's cat
Serious question, why does a state need a flag? Most of them are so lame, its seems rather pointless, actually.
Cervantes
@schrodinger’s cat:
Why does anyone need a flag?
Keith G
@schrodinger’s cat: The state flag thing descends from the fact that this country started a a collection of sovereign states. The flags represent what were thought as discrete communities who retained a portion of their sovereignty. Traditions linger.
Cervantes
@jl:
Huffman, one of the Democrats who proposed halting the displays/sales, is from California, too.
Keith G
@Cervantes: They can be so useful, cute, and cuddly.
Oh, you typed ‘flag’.
schrodinger's cat
If Balloon Juice had a flag what would be on it
1. Tunch
2. Mustard
3. Mop
4. Subaru in the field
5. All of the above
Cervantes
@efgoldman:
Common misconception. The word is sometimes used for a young cod or haddock, three pounds or less.
And yes, it’s also used for the filets you’re talking about.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Cervantes:
You must not be an Eddie Izzard fan:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UTduy7Qkvk8
Cervantes
@Keith G:
Cute and cuddly I can see; but isn’t “useful” illegal in thirty-seven states?
Omnes Omnibus
@dmsilev: I have been doing some research on the tango recently, and I can state with a reasonable degree of certainty they are not dancing the tango.
Keith G
@Cervantes: Not after Lawrence v. Texas
Cervantes
@efgoldman:
You’re right!
Did I say they were the same fish?
Cervantes
@Keith G:
Still … useful?
Bokonon
@Cervantes:
I went to college in New England. The dining halls frequently served “scrod” as one of the dinner entrees. The pieces of fish had a really dismaying tendency to dry out and curl up, which led us to refer to them as “scrod knobs.” Really unappetizing.
And then there were the “beef panels” that they also served …
A Ghost To Most
Beef panels? Is that like death panels?
Keith G
@Cervantes: Hopefully.
Cervantes
@Bokonon:
In my day “scrod” were sometimes fried, usually boiled, always inedible.
Cervantes
@A Ghost To Most:
That depends on your powers of discernment.
Bokonon
@Cervantes:
With enough ketchup and two pieces of bread, just about anything is edible. Except possibly a scrod knob. Trying to bite through the leathery fish skin … oh god.
Estamm
I’ve lived in upstate New York, Alabama and now Kentucky. Every state has its share of racists. My family’s farm in New York was a stop on the Underground Railroad, presumably to help those fleeing from Alabama and Kentucky. Whitesboro was named after a guy named White, so the towns name can’t be racist. I honestly think the flag shows two men wrestling, but yeah, it should be changed. But really, people are making a mountain out of a molehill here.
rikyrah
this is racist as phuck.
period.
The Gray Adder
I have lived maybe 10 miles from Whitesboro since 1997, and I was completely unaware of this. Where the hell are you, Ray Halbritter? Why are you not pointing out this South Park worthy outrage?
Bill Murray
@beltane: going by what people think where I live, the Massachusetts flag should have either the IRS logo or a leprechaun with some Lucky Charms
Matt McIrvin
@efgoldman: Scrod exists retroactively as whatever nondescript white fish was used to make the filet.
I was going to write “cod” but decided “scrod” was funnier.
Matt McIrvin
Actually the Massachusetts state flag should just have a diagram of a rotary. Nice bold design. We could say it’s “the Hub” if questioned.
Paul in KY
@Waldo: That would be a better one that what I saw at top.
Paul in KY
@schrodinger’s cat: I would say Tunch, rampant on field of azure, with crossed mops underneath.