Scott Walker has been working hard to convince voters he could be a "smart" president http://t.co/HD4lNiH7II pic.twitter.com/CXquNwryYL
— NYT Politics (@nytpolitics) July 12, 2015
Before we get to the reviews of today’s final teased-harder-than-the-next-Star-Wars campaign announcement, I want to go back to the “but he doesn’t even have a college degree!” mini-tempest. I agree that the issue of credentialling is overblown, but it’s the reason Walker decided to drop out that makes me wonder about his candidacy. From the Washington Post, back in February:
… Not even his friends at Marquette were entirely sure why he never finished. Some had heard that a parent had fallen ill, or maybe there was some financial strain. Others thought he had simply had enough of school.
Walker clearly liked college politics more than college itself. He had managed to line up 47 campaign endorsements, including ones from the ski team and the varsity chorus, but he had trouble showing up on time for French.
And, after four years, he had faltered on both fronts. He’d lost an ugly race for president. And he apparently had far too few credits to graduate…
As a freshman, Walker was elected to the student senate. He plunged into the job, leading a hard-charging impeachment inquiry into charges of misspent money.
But in his classes, some professors said they never saw the same level of focus on schoolwork. In introductory French, for instance, Walker routinely barged into the room after the lesson had begun, loudly making excuses…
“He seemed utterly bored,” said Michael Fleet, who taught him in a class on the politics of the Third World. Fleet said he’d hoped to get Walker into debates with the liberals in the room. But it didn’t work. Walker would only give occasional short speeches that made conservative arguments.
“It wasn’t always on key. It wasn’t always in response to anything,” Fleet said. “He wasn’t engaged. It was like he came in with a script.”
Campaigning, on the other hand, was something Walker seemed to enjoy. But he had trouble winning. As a freshman, for instance, he ran for a higher office in student government and was defeated by a write-in candidate…
And then he left Marquette altogether…
What friends remember is that Walker got a good job, at the American Red Cross office near campus… At the time, the Journal Sentinel found, Walker was not close to graduating. After four years, he was at least 34 credits short — about one-quarter of the required total away from earning his degree, according to its report. Walker’s political spokeswoman said she would not contest that finding…
In his first year after leaving Marquette, though, Walker wasn’t studying and he wasn’t married; he was running for office… Walker had decided to challenge Gwen Moore (D), an African American woman who represented a partly white and deeply Democratic state assembly district that surrounded Marquette, Hiller said.
Republican leaders welcomed Walker’s bid. He wouldn’t win, but he would still force Moore to spend money and time defending the seat. (Walker later moved to suburban Wauwatosa, and it was there that he won his seat in 1993.)…
So: It’s not that Walker’s stupid, or incapable, he’s just lazy. He’ll work hard on the “fun stuff” of campaigning, but not so much on the gruntwork of legislating. He was well behind on his studies, when the local Repubs offered him a job if he’d take one for the team by dogwhistling against an African-American Democrat in a doomed race; apparently that seemed like a fair trade to him. Nothing I’ve seen about his career since then contradicts that — as long as other people are willing to pay him to give speeches, shiv opponents, and not look too hard at what his backers are after, Scott Walker is perfectly willing to let the people around him steal everything that isn’t nailed down. Just so long as he, personally, isn’t required to do any of the spadework in advance or the heavy lifting during the heist. And when the lights come on and the miscreants (try to) scatter, Scotty looks vague and shrugs: He just trusts too much! Who could’ve known what the people working most closely with him were up to, when his attention was disengaged?
Hey, that strategy worked well enough for Walker’s political idol Reagan. But St. Ronnie had three advantages Walker doesn’t: First, he wasn’t a career politician, so he could pretend an ignorance of all nasty things political. Second, Reagan was a good-looking figurehead — it shouldn’t matter, but yet it does, that Walker looks less like an aging matinee idol and more like a sweaty middle-management drone whose accomplice is cooking the books. And finally, Reagan actually was suffering from diagnosed cognitive impairment by the time the worst of the Iran-contra news came to light; it’s not gonna be as easy for Walker to pretend that he’s wandered through his entire career as a political Forrest Gump, and that we the voters should now put him in charge of the entire country.
schrodinger's cat
I wouldn’t laugh at him, at this point in time he seems Hillary’s most credible opponent.
Baud
Can’t really fault him for that, when there are so many other things to fault him for.
Omnes Omnibus
He ran against Gwen Moore? I didn’t know that. What a doofus. She is bulletproof. Brilliant, rock solid on any issue, responsive to constituent concerns, and a hell of a fighter.
ETA: In case you missed it, I think the world of Gwen Moore.
Mike in NC
Walker is Dubya minus the cowboy hat. He’d fuck up the country the same way he did Wisconsin.
Trentrunner
While we wax on matters substantive, I will point out that Scott Walker has the funniest baldspot on his crown.
A few weeks ago I was watching some TV screen in an airport, no sound, and Walker had bent down, and I thought, “Ah, he’s wearing a yarmulke, he must be at a synagogue or something.”
But that was his baldspot, shiny, circular, in stark white outlined relief against the surrounding border fence of wiry brunette hair…
Not that it matters. But both he and Rubio are follicly-impaired.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodinger’s cat: He isn’t ready for the Majors.
trollhattan
He scares me only from the standpoint that he’s the Money Men’s wet-dream and if somehow he emerges from the Fabulous Group of Fifteen [plus N more yet to announce] they’ll throw every shekel possible behind him.
Bland as a bland thing, Walker is certainly capable of learning and reciting soundbites for the next sixteen months.
When’s he going to be indicted?
ShadeTail
@schrodinger’s cat:
On the one hand, yeah he probably is. On the other hand, if this article is accurate about his personality, then it’s a huge weakness waiting to be exploited. It’s like 2008 all over again, where McCain was the high-stakes craps player while Obama was the patient poker player.
sctrojan90
If you have to prove to others you are smart….you’re not
Omnes Omnibus
@sctrojan90: And you sound like Fredo Corleone.
Baud
@sctrojan90:
Exactly. That’s why I don’t even try.
SFAW
@trollhattan:
How does “never” work for you?
ETA: I guess “never” is a little over-the-top. I should have written “right after Jamie Dimon and Lloyd Blankfein get indicted.”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Omnes Omnibus: Whenever I hear talking heads talk about his “three state-wide victories in a blue state”, I wait for some mention of “off year election”. I can’t say it’s never pointed out, but not much.
I wonder if the Bushes have anything up their sleeves to hit him with, or if they want to to see if he’s of the right stock to serve at table I mean serve as Jeb’s Vice President
Keith P.
@schrodinger’s cat: And his pandering knows neither bounds nor the past.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think Walker is as dirty as can be. He has never dealt with people who have the money to really dig into him. I think the Bushies are just the crowd to do it.
SFAW
@Omnes Omnibus:
One can only hope.
GxB
Love the scare quotes around “smart” in that tweet – it should be mandatory for Scoot. Back in ’10 the word was the good Guv was booted from Marquette due to some scholastic impropriety. Was that officially debunked?
In any case Scoot is a true half-asser. Put up a show, do the bare minimum, and always, always, always, be a good little foot-soldier for the nice lizard people behind the curtains – they’re the only ones who matter in his eyes. GWB v2.0.
Baud
@SFAW:
For mutually assured destruction.
Omnes Omnibus
@SFAW: I love Wisconsin, but it’s a mid-sized state. Being a player in WI isn’t like being a player in CA, NY, FL, or TX. Walker is heading into a shitnado.
SatanicPanic
@trollhattan: I think it totally matters. I mean, I agree, it’s stupid to judge him on it, but I’d say it’s a pretty big problem to overcome. That being said, I never noticed his bald spot so maybe not. Rubio OTOH, that guy will never win unless they solve male pattern baldness before next year.
Omnes Omnibus
@SatanicPanic: It is there and it is getting bigger every year.
danielx
@Mike in NC: @Mike in NC:
Fixed, but aside from that minor correction that’s pretty much the long and short of it. Also minus Bush’s looks and minus Bush’s charm (such as it was/is), much less Reagan’s. ‘
Must add, appears to suffer from Dubya’s short attention span. Unless, of course, he’s focused on one of the priorities of the current owners of the former state of Wisconsin, currently known as the Wisconsin Province of the Koch Republic.
Update: what a fucking prick. Taking a quarter billion dollars from University of Wisconsin’s budget is only a continuation of his seriously heinous misdeeds.
Anne Laurie
@schrodinger’s cat: I ain’t laughing, believe me. Just pointing out a weakness that we should be hammering — Walker’s lazy. Plenty of people get huffy about the “too dumb to graduate” trope, but not many will defend “too lazy to do the work”.
Zinsky
The man is a fucking doorknob. This is the best America has to offer? OMG
jl
Walker seems to be hitting so very hard and very clearly and loudly on his extremist union and education busting and other extreme reactionary positions in the primary that it will be hard for him to swing towards anything else in the general election. So, there is that one silver lining to the guy.
NotoriousJRT
Anyone who is troubled, disturbed, wondering about Scott Walkers lack of a college degree is not in his target audience, IMO. His true believers will see it as a badge of honor. I don’t care why he did not get his degree, I would not use his lack of a degree as an argument against him; it would only backfire. His policies are destructive; he is in the pocket of big money interests. End o story.
Ayn Randy
The Republican party is chock full of Scott Walkers. I went to community college with some lazy jackass that mouthed off, showed up late and paid little attention in class. He had a talk radio show on some low-wattage AM station where I’m guessing he just yelled about how liberals are destroying America.
Well, this guy is now a state rep here in Missourah and his entire life previous to this was being a legislative aid. Seriously, he went from college to Jeff City and has never worked a serious job. He comes from a wealthy, well-known family and waltzed to victory.
Younger Republicans are a bunch of snotty assholes who grew up on Hannity robin feeding them propaganda about the Iraq War. They aren’t interested in legislating or making people’s lives better — they are just a bunch of Scott Walkers whose only real pleasure is attacking liberals.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
only according to him and his wife, and I kind of think she’s being polite. And a couple of billionaires.
Omnes Omnibus
@Zinsky:
Who said that? Did anyone imply that? What caused that statement to pop into your head?
@jl: He cannot tack to the center. Period.
jl
@Omnes Omnibus:
” He cannot tack to the center. Period. ”
And if I understand the news reports correctly, he has a habit of trying to force through legislation so extreme that even the WI GOP has to back away in public, like the recent attempt to gut the WI public meeting and business sunshine laws. Some of the proposals are so toxic to the public that the leg fingers Waker as the nut behind it, and he fesses up. So, there is that, too. Will make for some interesting campaign ads and debate topics if Walker gets to the general.
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman:
Basically.
the Conster
No one gets elected President by promising that job security, marriage equality and public education will be taken away. Not gonna happen.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Yup. While I despise him, I would have no trouble voting for someone who had no degree if s/he had proven competence and judgment in other ways. Ross Perot was apparently a brilliant businessman, Willard Romney is very good at vulture capitalism, Ben Carson by most accounts a surgeon of the first rank. Hell, the Shrub had more Ivy League degrees than either Roosevelt. Bobby Jindal: Rhodes fucking scholar.
RaflW
I’m not sure one can read all that into the above. I think he may be both lazy and, let’s say only middling intelligent. Now, have we had middling-intelligent presidents before? Of course. But lazy, ideologically rigid, middling-smart men (or women!) do not make great presidents.
I’d wager that there are plenty of Wisconsinites who would say they don’t make great governors.
I’ll note that he does seem to be ambitious. Which when coupled with lazy gets you, the voter, a particularly shitty deal.
Baud
Does Jeb! win the nom by default? Walker is the only one I thought had a real shot at beating him.
SFAW
@Baud:
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’m OK with that
SFAW
@Omnes Omnibus:
Sounded like he did, to some extent, last election. But, you were there, I was not. Your thoughts?
Gvg
it just hit me reading one of the dead threads below, every race I have paid attention too in my life, the republicans always brand the democrats favorite as the most liberal, even though whoever it is was centerest in voting record and prior year rankings before the GOP think tanks realized that person was going to run. this time with an actual labeled socialist running, they can’t do that to Hillary.
I wonder if she asked him to run?
I am sure it only influenced a small percentage of potential voters, but when it’s close, that’s all it takes.
I hate that tactic of theirs.
GxB
@danielx:
He’s gutted the once fine UW system mercilessly and forget about the public K-12, it’s a road apple. Though I don’t follow my alumni newsletters too closely, I have heard nary a peep from them in push back. Big problem in this state, the politics of resentment goes over like Freebird in a biker bar and “those pointy headed intellectuals in Madison just got to face reality.” (paraphrase from an LTE about a year back.)
SatanicPanic
@Omnes Omnibus: normally I don’t say this, but I am rooting for baldness
SFAW
@RaflW:
But they can get elected. Twice even. At least once with a little help from SCOTUS, and once with the Ohio SecState fucking over the Dem districts vis-a-vis enough voting machines.
The above is all hypothetical, of course.
Omnes Omnibus
@SFAW: I don’t think he did. He has to own what he has done.
jl
Wallker’s motto might be ‘Moderation in the pursuit of extremism is no virtue’.
NotoriousJRT
@efgoldman:
I am just saying the “He didn’t graduate” does not hurt him in the primaries or among the GOP base. I do not underestimate the backlash coming from folks in my cohort who want revenge for all things Obama. They will rationalize his blandness into moderation or some other knuckle-headed reason to vote Republican. I don’t see the sky falling; I don’t see Walker’s degree or lack thereof as anything people will care about. People will vote for or against in spite of or for other reasons.
Alex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZLB9Mhc2vg
“They’ve just got really lame ideas, things like the minimum wage.” -Scott Walker
I’m sure by tomorrow Walker will be explaining that it’s really all about raising the minimum wage. And hey, maybe the video cuts off the crucial context (I have not seen anyone saying that though on the twitters).
On the other hand, Walker was previously asked if he thinks the minimum wage should exist and he dodged the question. — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR93M5Rqg1k
SFAW
@Omnes Omnibus:
I agree re: what he actually did. But I’m talking about campaign talk, not actions. Mainly because I’m of the opinion that much of the electorate is fucking stupid, and will believe whatever BS he tries to peddle re: how centrist he is.
KG
what i don’t understand is 34 credits isn’t that tough to do, a couple classes a semester and you can cover it in about 2-3 years. then you can play the “working college student” card (even if it’s only half true) and at least appear to be relatable to the experience that a lot of college students had. and it kind of makes you bullet proof in a GOP debate when a legacy Ivy Leaguer tries to go after you, “well, unlike some people, I didn’t have my parents’ wealth and connections to rely on while in college, like many Americans, I actually had to work while I was in school…”
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: YouTube killed that model.
Omnes Omnibus
@SFAW: IMO, he didn’t moderate. OTOH, I am not completely analytical on this topic.
mdblanche
@schrodinger’s cat: No, I’m pretty sure her most credible opponent is Bernie Sanders.
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: No, of course not; YouTube was just shorthand.
jl
@efgoldman: True, but Walker has racked up plenty of actions as governor that either cannot be hid (signing a law, along with ugly quotes to go along with the law, as in ‘vag ultrasounds are so cool!’ or that Walker does not appear to be able to hide very well (attempts to push through legislation so toxic even his own party has to back off).
KG
@Omnes Omnibus: it’s not just YouTube. YouTube helps because it’s video and video always makes things worse (compare and contrast Ray Rice, Adrian Peterson, and Greg Hardy). But it’s the fact that there’s more than 3 outlets for the news now. Between broadcast, cable, blogs, twitter, and YouTube, you just can’t play the whistlestop tour, say something different from the back of the train in each town game.
And, in slight fairness to Nixon, he did have a plan to win the war, it just turned out that the plan was bombing Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam into smoldering ruins. Which probably wasn’t the best plan.
RaflW
I will say that a lot of liberals come off as insufferable jackasses when they say “but he didn’t finish college!” as if that’s a winning argument.
Do people realize how many millions of Americans leave college without a degree? Lots of them are out in the workforce, doing all sorts of jobs … and voting.
Now, I happen to think that having a college degree is a pretty good base-level prerequisite for the job of prez. But what comes across in various comment threads I see is the short-hand “he didn’t finish” and I cringe. I see this as insulting a lot of voters who, even if they dislike Walker’s policies, can identify with a narrative of trying college, moving into the workforce, etc.
It may be flack-induced bullshit, but narrative sticks, and a ton of libs attacking a college non-completer fits the rw radio jock storyline of elite toff-nosed liberal hater.
Go after Walker for his laziness if you can find the Marquette story that fits the lazy narrative. Go after his opportunism if his leaving before graduating makes a good point. But “he didn’t finish” is a crap narrative, politically & campaign-wise.
angelfoot
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Not to mention Republican governors are hardly a rarity in the state. Hell, Tommy Thompson ran the joint for 14 years, until he resigned to be Bush’s Secretary of HHS.
Omnes Omnibus
@RaflW: Did you miss the point of the OP?
Omnes Omnibus
@angelfoot: Thompson, like Dreyfuss, had a D legislature to deal with.
SFAW
@Omnes Omnibus:
Hey, give him a break! He was just following the highly-successful Walker model.
srv
IDK why you people are talking or bothering about these other mostly-RINOs.
The nomination is Trumps to lose to Jeb. Stick a fork in it.
SFAW
@Omnes Omnibus:
Thanks. Fortunately, you’re a lawyer, so I trust your objectivity.
ETA: Of course, you’re also a Cheesehead, so that introduces doubt into that calculation.
angelfoot
@Omnes Omnibus: What’s your point? He was a popular Republican governor.
Omnes Omnibus
@SFAW: Neither of those statements make any sense to me.
Omnes Omnibus
@angelfoot: Neither of them did much damage. Walker, unlike the others, has a right wing legislature to work with.
sharl
@Gvg:
It is natural for the GOP to try this stunt. But it is rather irksome when certain “respectable” media are major co-conspirators in the effort. A major culprit has been National Journal, which seems to have employed this shtick for its own business reasons (click-bait) since at least 2004.
I hope you are right in Hillary not being susceptible to this, but it won’t be for lack of effort on the part of the GOP and its media enablers such as National Journal.
SFAW
@Omnes Omnibus:
Shall I type louder? Will that help?
Omnes Omnibus
@SFAW: Doubt it.
SFAW
@sharl:
Maybe I’m just not paying attention enough, but I always thought of National Journal as post-Murdoch-WSJ-lite — and nothing I’ve read from them has dissuaded me. (Not that the pre-Murdoch WSJ was anything approaching liberal, but at least it wasn’t overtly Fox-like.)
jl
@Omnes Omnibus: Unsobered Cheesehead Lawyer is good idea for a comedy routine,
hellslittlestangel
@Trentrunner: Molotov!
angelfoot
@Omnes Omnibus: Right, I was just saying that when the media crow about Walker’s “three state-wide victories in a blue state” it’s simply not that unusual for a Republican to get the nod for the governor’s mansion. Same goes for Minnesota.
Omnes Omnibus
@jl: Where will it play outside of WI, MN, and IL? Not even Iowa would bite.
Omnes Omnibus
@angelfoot: Toss MA into that ring then.
Bubblegum Tate
Please enjoy The Onion’s candidate profile of Scott Walker. It’s pretty much right on the nose:
And so on.
dnfree
Being from Illinois, I am reminded of our recent governor Blagojevich. Same high regard for his own abilities combined with a lack of interest in the actual nitty-gritty of governing. Did I mention corruption?
jl
@Omnes Omnibus: I am but a simple Cheeshead Lawyer, born in another world. Your new craft beers frighten me, for I do not understand them.
catclub
When Bloomberg View is saying Greece should exit. Wow.
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-07-13/greece-should-just-quit
sharl
@SFAW: You may be right about that; after all, NJ is the employer of poorly-disguised friend-of-GOP Ron Fournier. But National Journal has Official Respectability™ as a Beltway media outlet, though that “respectability” is often not due to anything like quality journalism.
Long time listener
So basically he’s George Bush, but without the overpoweringly bright aftertaste. Got it.
SFAW
@sharl:
So do David Brooks, Tom Friedman, and John McCain (who was a POW, by the way).
Suzanne
I agree that credentials should not be a make-or-break issue; there are plenty of good reasons for not finishing college. Being an undisciplined shit is not a good reason, though.
I am going to sound elitist here, but I think it’s ridiculous that people who got C averages in high school and never got any further education think that their opinions on anything having to do with politics or culture or society are worth anything. FFS.
22over7
I’ll be the one with the unpopular opinion on this thread, then. It does matter to me whether the President has a college degree. Sure, it’s no guarantee of gravitas (which we know to our sorrow), and if you can point out the modern-day Truman in the current contest I’ll be happy to be wrong. It just seems to me that the freaking President of the United States should be educated, literate, disciplined. A guy who dropped out of Marquette missed a hell of an opportunity, and it speaks badly of him.
Suzanne
@RaflW: I agree that it comes off as elitist and snobby to object, but honestly, I think we have this stupid idea as a society that the President should be an Everyman. Fuck that. The President should be the most educated, intelligent, principled, experienced person we can find. The President should be ABOVE AVERAGE. I realize that that hurts the feelings of the average, but tough shit.
Mike G
Another intellectually-lazy grifter who doesn’t like to think. So of course he became a Repuke politician.
Lack of a college degree shouldn’t be a deal-breaker, but apart from his noxious politics I don’t see that he has any achievements since his 20s in the Bill Gates/Steve Jobs realm to indicate innate brilliance that would make up for a lack of credentials. Quite the contrary.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
That’s an interesting, and persuasive, way to put it, that his walking away from the opportunity he had suggests a lack of judgment and intelligence. As to the Truman in this race, I’m not saying there is one, just that I don’t automatically discount there may be one some time in the future. Probably the best argument academic credentials in this race– well, I guess that’s still Bobby Jindal, Brown and Oxford, but there’s also Ted Cruz, he of the “premier” Ivies.
Karen in GA
@Suzanne: I’ll leave then.
Actually, my grades were a bit higher than “C,” but I only got a handful of community college credits before opting for full-time hours and overtime at my job. Funny enough, other people probably would have thought I was an undisciplined shit, but the fact was that moving out was kind of a priority after the last time my father tried to strangle me.
Good to know that 30 years later my opinions shouldn’t matter, though.
FFS, indeed.
SFAW
@Suzanne:
Your attitude sucks.
First of all, that “must be edumacated” thing is liberal elitist crap, pushed by the pointy-headed inteleckshul moochers and takers, like college professors. Second: as everyone knows, you should only vote for a President who seems like someone you’d like to have a beer with – and not one of them elitist micro-brewed, designer, craft beers – we’re talkin’ Budweiser or some other ‘Murican beer. Fourth: you need to have someone who can see into the soul of some other manly-man world leader, because that’s the best way to keep him from invading
Ukrainesome province full of insurrectionists. Fifth: oh, the fifth has already been drunk by the steely-eyed reg’lar guy. Sixth: there is NO criterion Number Six.OK? Got all that? Now work on yer attitude, ya commie.
22over7
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Well, one candidate went to Wellesley and Yale law.
Again, I’m not saying that a B.A. is a marker of wisdom. But it’s not THAT hard, hell, I got one, and I’m no genius.
NotoriousJRT
@Suzanne:
Sadly, I think there are many who do not share your standard.
Karen in GA
@Suzanne: I’ve only skimmed the comments — I’ll go back and look after I submit this — but did someone here argue that the President shouldn’t be above average?
Suzanne
@Karen in GA: Plenty of people think the President should be someone they want to have a beer with. Their desire for a friend figure is more important to them than electing a smart person. That’s fucking stupid.
Thor Heyerdahl
@Suzanne: If people want to drink with Walker since he’s an everyman – might as well just drink with any Wisconsinite everyman since there are so many bars…complete with Brandys Old Fashioned.
Lewis Black explains drinking in Wisconsin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WlwumGkSec
SFAW
@Karen in GA:
I’m guessing it was a response to W’s candidacy, where he/Rove tried to make out that being a mediocre student was good enough to be Preznit. Which is true, if you want to help Grover Norquist achieve his vision, I guess.
SFAW
@Suzanne:
Of course, when confronted with an actual smart person as President, they started talking about affirmative action. I wonder why that was.
Karen in GA
@Karen in GA: Too late to edit my previous comment. I read the comments, and didn’t find anyone here arguing that the President should be average. There’s Sarah Palin’s target demographic arguing that, and the news media keeps harping on how important it supposedly is that a candidate be seen as an average person — but if the whole country really wanted that, Obama wouldn’t have won twice.
But saying people with C averages and no college shouldn’t expect their opinions to matter is, yes, elitist, snobby, and wrong. Being so dismissive of others’ life experiences and, by extension, the perspectives that come with them is incredibly arrogant and narrow-minded.
Thor Heyerdahl
@SFAW: Thanks for the political advice Bruce!
SFAW
@Thor Heyerdahl:
Crack tube!
Karen in GA
@SFAW: I think W came close enough to steal it in 2000 because for a lot of people (not everyone, obviously), the economy was humming along nicely and life was good, and people made the mistake of thinking the job was easy.
I’ve seen this at jobs where a competent manager leaves and is replaced by a moron because nobody thinks there’s much to the job. A year later the department is run into the ground, and then they realize the job is hard and the last guy just made it look easy because he was that good at it.
Those idiots are a good number of your W voters.
SFAW
@Karen in GA:
Correlation does not imply causation. Plus, it’s not as if McCain or RMoney were “regular guys.”
Suzanne can defend herself, I guess, but: I think she was taking issue with the whole “want to have a beer with” meme that became popular in 2000 and beyond, and which led to the idea that it was OK to have a dumbshit (i.e., W) in the White House, because “C students need representation, too.” Unfortunately, it seems that there is a larger-than-hoped-for contingent of voters who believe that. I think Suzanne was taking issue with THOSE voters, rather than average students as a whole.
SFAW
@Karen in GA:
You may be right, although I tend to doubt it in this specific hypothesis.
But one of the things that became apparent is that Al Gore was portrayed as a know-it-all, arrogant stiff — not a “regular guy” like W — as much by the MSM as by BushCo, and it seems highly likely that it cost him votes. Would it have made a difference in the election? Possibly, maybe even “probably.”
Karen in GA
@SFAW:
Can’t argue with that.
SFAW
@Karen in GA:
Karen –
For what it’s worth: I think you and Suzanne are in much closer agreement than you (seem to) think. I think there was some “unfortunate” phrasing, but that was it.
LosGatosCA
The anti-intellectualism of the nihilist party is breath taking.
Reagan couldn’t fake it, Quayle couldn’t spell it, Dubya couldn’t speak it, and Palin took 5/6 schools to learn how to toss word salads. And now a college dropout. A true confederacy of true dunces.
It’s really amazing.
SFAW
@LosGatosCA:
It’s a means to an end: the dumber the electorate, the higher the red vote. Kind of ties into their whole “destroy the public education system” 30-plus-year effort
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@SFAW:
I know I’m not the first person to have this thought, but I still suspect part of the reason the MSM liked W is because they thought they were smarter than he was, and it made them feel smugly superior — Lookit me, I’m smarter than the leader of the free world!
And they hate Obama because they know, we know, and he knows that he’s way smarter than they are.
Karen in GA
@SFAW:
She was complaining that people want average. I just pointed to evidence that plenty of people want above-average.
RMoney was definitely not average, but McCain brought us Palin.
As far as her statement about C students with no college and whether their opinions on politics, culture or society should matter, it looked pretty general to me.
It’s late, and I should probably sleep, but they’re discussing Bloom County upstairs. First world problems.
Original Lee
@22over7: One of the reasons the Europeans held Reagan in low esteem was that he didn’t have a doctorate or a law degree. I had many Germans tell me that leaders need to prove that they can think and not just react.
Suzanne
@SFAW: Yes.
I have a problem when those who are of average intellect or average work ethic or average performance or average anything think that they have more credibility than those who are educated and experienced and truly of above-average mental capability. It’s the whole “my ignorance is as good as your knowledge” thing. The barely-finished-high-school acquaintances of mine who argue that climate change is bullshit, etc. And while there are many good reasons for not finishing school and there are certainly exceptionally bright people who didn’t get a degree (and idiots who did), I truly believe that formal education broadens the worldview in a way that personal experience simply does not. In my view, anyone who wants to have literally the most important job in the world should have a shit-ton of formal education.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Karen in GA:
I think she was being pretty specifically snarky about the voters and journalists in 2000 who wanted to have a beer with W because he was a C student just like them, but YMMV.
Karen in GA
@SFAW: Maybe. Then again, I’d imagine someone with her education should be capable of clearly writing what she means to say.
Yeah, it’s late, I’m punchy. I’m going to sleep.
Suzanne
@Karen in GA: I’m a self-professed asshole.
I’m sorry. Walker is literally not qualified to run a classroom full of kindergarteners. He would have to be astounding in literally every other fashion for me to come to the conclusion that he is qualified to lead a country.
SFAW
@Karen in GA:
Yes, I understood that. I’m saying that it’s not clear that Obama’s being above average was a distinguishing factor with respect to McCain or RMoney. In other words: I don’t believe people in 2008 saw Obama as above average, McCain as not, and decided to vote for Obama based on that comparison. There may have been some number, but I suspect it was nowhere close to Obama’s margin of victory
And RMoney, for all his flaws/evil/flippity-floppity-floo, was certainly not average. In fact, one could argue that he was further above average than Obama. (Not saying he is/was, just saying it could be argued.) So in that case, the above-average-ness becomes a wash.
Karen in GA
@Suzanne: I don’t think anyone here disagrees with you on that.
Suzanne
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Yes, and I was also referring to Sarah Silverman’s comedy routine about cops/authority figures.
Police: Do you know why I’m standing here?
Sarah: You got all C’s in high school?
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Suzanne:
There are plenty of people who are smart and politically engaged who did not get a good formal education. But, then, you’re rarely going to see those people get caught up in climate change denial or anti-vaxx, and you’re definitely not going to see them claim that their lack of a college degree automatically makes them smarter than the pointy-headed intellectuals who did.
I take it the local political climate of Phoenix is getting to you again?
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Suzanne:
Also, too, you know who doesn’t have a college degree? Sarah Silverman. She dropped out of NYU to do stand-up and never went back.
seaboogie
Scott Walker is a useful sociopath for moneyed interests. Is now, and always was….
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
I dropped out of pre med to take over the family business. That wasn’t the only reason but it is what I did for the next 18 yrs.
So I don’t have a college education and I agree with Suzanne. I want someone who can think and logically, not just with their gut or their religious leanings. This person is supposed to be our leader, not our beach buddy. They will have to make hard decisions, decisions that are complex and can have very costly ramifications and I want them to think about them and at least have a logical answer for them. Anyone can make up bullshit, I want someone who can make a realistic argument about their position and who takes the entire citizenry into account when doing so. That doesn’t mean everyone wins or that we don’t fight when it is vital and a last resort, it means what is best for the most and is truly vital to survival. Or at least making life better.
And I think Suzanne is correct that a lack of a college degree for someone wanting to be that person is a negative. Yes maybe they had good reasons for dropping out, I feel I did, Karen in GA seems to have an even better reason. But neither of us is trying to be the leader of a rather significantly sized country with 5% of the worlds population and it’s largest military, and some huge problems, mainly brought about by conservatives.
Aleta
Bush’s campaign shifted attention away from his academic record and his various failures with the propaganda that he was good at business. (The first President with an MBA! Just what this country needs!) People buy books by billionaires, or hang around wealthy people, thinking that success will be somehow transmitted. (Trump is pretending that now.) People voted for Bush partly out of a vague superstition that his so-called business success (which actually came from his family, of course, not his skills) might rub off on the economy and on them. As I remember it, and I could well be wrong, the “fun to have a beer with” idea was floated more toward the end of the campaign, perhaps about the time that Bush’s drunk driving history and rumored cocaine use was finally hitting the news. He campaigned on the idea that business success outweighed reports of his disinterest in books and learning. (Though they did try to come up with a list of books he liked or was reading, just to cover that base.)
Steeplejack
@Karen in GA:
Also, we tend to forget it now, because of what a colossal failure Dubya turned out to be, but in the early going they were pushing him as the “first M.B.A. president.” That was going to solve all our problems.
Well, we did get predictable M.B.A. results, so there’s that.
EriktheRed
@schrodinger’s cat: He won’t even take his home state in a general election.
Kay
@22over7:
I think it’s important too. I think pundits are making the same kind of mistake they made with Sarah Palin (to a lesser extent with Walker, but the same type of mistake).
Most people want their children to do well in school and finish college and I don’t care what class they are. I think the idea that there is a huge group of people of any class who reject the value of any kind of education credential is a weird kind of reverse snobbery. It’s easy to prove on the Right- they love that Carson and Paul are physicians and they love that Ted Cruz has prestigious education credentials. Bush was only admired for pretending his top flight education credentials didn’t matter because he had it.
Any college would be fine- a state or smaller school might be even better than a fancier or “national” school, but not finishing is not a plus.
I think you have to remember who started this “we resent and distrust educated people” on the Right- it was a bunch of political operatives and conservatives all of whom have the credential.
It goes even further. There is a widely shared belief among non-college parents where I live that their kids are considered lesser at school- not capable of college or directed away from college. There’s real resentment about it and it comes from the fact that all teachers are college graduates. I was surprised how deep it goes when we had a series of community meetings on our public schools. We have about 25% college educated parents (close to the national average I think) and there is a widespread belief that the kids of college educated or professional parents are given some kind of leg-up in school. They think “college people” are sort of rigging the game so the “distrust” element is there. It’s absolutely real but thinking it’s a rejection of the value of the credential is a mistake, I think. It’s a validation of the perceived worth of it.
They try to take Obama’s college degree(s) away with claiming he got them thru some gaming of the system (the constant drumbeats about not seeing his ‘records’) not because it doesn’t matter, but because it does.
Kay
@22over7:
I think it’s like Palin because the reaction on the (punditry) Right to Palin’s daughter’s unplanned pregnancy was so defensive and so far from my experience of actual parents (of any class) when their kids get pregnant. This is not a great thing, I don’t care who you are. To me it’s reverse snobbery to say it somehow gave Palin “working class cred” because, well, we all know that happens all the time among a certain set of voters so she’s “like” them.
It’s a club no one wants to join. Can parents handle it gracefully and kindly and well? Sure. But no on aspires to be in it just like no one sets out to start and not finish college.
Sherparick
One of my things is wondering what happen to the politics of certain states to “f” them up so much. Illinois, where I grew up, I understood was “F” up from the core (Crooked Democrats ran Chicago and Crooked Republicans ran the suburbs, with “Downstate” being divided between Crooked rural Republicans and Crooked Bourbon Democrats. But basically “Crooked” ran the state. But Wisconsin to the north was the epitome of Good Government, with Reformed Progressive Republicans and New Deal Progressive Democrats both acting for what they saw the common good. So when a slimy crook like Walker and the Sociopaths that are the current Republican majority in Madison took over, I wonder what the WTF. Well, what happen was economic decline, particularly of the White Working Class and segregation of the African-American into the City of Milwaukee. Automobile manufacturing plants like Chrysler’s in Kenosha and the GM Plant in Janesville are examples the decline and the political consequences (the strong pro-unions broke up, the cross racial alliances broke up), and solid Democratic districts became Republican. The repeal of the Fairness Doctrine under Reagan unleashed right-wing talk radio and upon the area, and these voices basically said “your problems is not plants closing or wage stagnation, your problem is the taxes you pay going for African American welfare and criminals and to pay school teachers and public employee unions (except for police unions).” Walker has perfected a dog whistle message white working class and the patronage of both the local Right-Wing talkers and the the local ultra-rich. Walker drew 58% of white non-college graduates in the 2014 election. Walker appeals to these people, in much the same way that Trump does in his colorful and cartoonish way, by promising the enact revenge fantasies this frustrated and alienated group regarding its “ressentiment” against Blacks, Hispanics, Koolz Kids with degrees, and hippies. He, not Jeb Bush, is the politician most likely to increase the white vote for Republicans to 65% that is Sean Trende’s dream path to a Republican Presidential Victory, particularly in the Midwest states of Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin.
Sherparick
@Kay: One of my things is wondering what happen to the politics of certain states to “f” them up so much. Illinois, where I grew up, I understood was “F” up from the core (Crooked Democrats ran Chicago and Crooked Republicans ran the suburbs, with “Downstate” being divided between Crooked rural Republicans and Crooked Bourbon Democrats. But basically “Crooked” ran the state. But Wisconsin to the north was the epitome of Good Government, with Reformed Progressive Republicans and New Deal Progressive Democrats both acting for what they saw the common good. So when a slimy crook like Walker and the Sociopaths that are the current Republican majority in Madison took over, I wonder what the WTF. Well, what happen was economic decline, particularly of the White Working Class and segregation of the African-American into the City of Milwaukee. Automobile manufacturing plants like Chrysler’s in Kenosha and the GM Plant in Janesville are examples the decline and the political consequences (the strong pro-unions broke up, the cross racial alliances broke up), and solid Democratic districts became Republican. The repeal of the Fairness Doctrine under Reagan unleashed right-wing talk radio and upon the area, and these voices basically said “your problems is not plants closing or wage stagnation, your problem is the taxes you pay going for African American welfare and criminals and to pay school teachers and public employee unions (except for police unions).” Walker has perfected a dog whistle message white working class and the patronage of both the local Right-Wing talkers and the the local ultra-rich. Walker drew 58% of white non-college graduates in the 2014 election. Walker appeals to these people, in much the same way that Trump does in his colorful and cartoonish way, by promising the enact revenge fantasies this frustrated and alienated group regarding its “ressentiment” against Blacks, Hispanics, Koolz Kids with degrees, “loose women,” gays, and hippies. He, not Jeb Bush, is the politician most likely to increase the white vote for Republicans to 65% that is Sean Trende’s dream path to a Republican Presidential Victory, particularly in the Midwest states of Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin. Walker is a skillful politician and I hate liberal pundits, who casually dismiss Walker as “stupid” before getting their knives out for Obama or Clinton or other liberal politician who has not given them a unicorn.
Sherparick
@Kay: I agree very much. It is a feeling of “ressentiment” about both educated people and the advantages that they “believe” (because right wing liars tell them so) that Blacks and “illegals” get over them, hard working white people who have not gotten a raise in 10 years (literally, there are millions of people who not seen a raise since 2007 if they still have the same job, while millions of others who lost jobs had to take one with less pay.)
Kay
@Sherparick:
Exactly. But it’s not a rejection of the value of the credential. Feeling shut out of it and resenting that doesn’t mean it holds less perceived value. It’s a validation of the perceived value. I have never met a parent of any class who bragged about their kid quitting school- any school. In fact, non-college parents here make a bigger deal about graduations than college parents. I have heard the snobbier parents here sort of jeer at it, like “oh, big deal, it’s a BA, ho hum”. That comes from assuming your kids will get that credential.
Comrade Carter
I can agree with the glowing praise for Gwen Moore. I live in… Wauwatosa… so I’m stuck with Jim Sensenbrenner for my Congressman. So I go to Gwen Moore’s staff and things ALWAYS work out.
Skippy-san
Scott Walker is both dangerous and evil. If he picks up momentum, the rest of us should feel very scared because it will be just like 1932 in Europe again. This guy is that dangeroous and that evil. He is the 21st incarnation of Richard Nixon. Totally amoral, ethically challenged, and worse yet, thinks he has a divine calling to fuck the rest of us over. Some of the GOP retards are at least, a bit idealistic. Not Walker. He’s just evil. Evil as in plays golf with Satan evil.
SFAW
@Skippy-san:
People like you who dance around the issue and refuse to say what they’re really thinking kinda drive me crazy. Kinda like when Walker get asked a question about anything other than “What’s your name?”
You wanna try again?
ETA: By the way, your comment was a thing of beauty.
Kay
@Sherparick:
I think Obama gets it really well, “gets” my opinion if it anyway. His response to Palin’s daughter’s pregnancy was both authentic and perfect. He didn’t make what I consider the mistake of believing it was a point of parental pride – he sees the aspirational part of “moving up” and how that’s almost universally admired.
Conservatives actually have a whole meme about this- “strivers”. That’s poor or middle class people who deserve to be plucked from the herd because they want to join the class above them. They think liberals with their focus on equity have held this group back. They usually apply it to black people but if they weren’t so focused on ignoring the fact that low income white people exist they could easily apply it to white people. Strivers grab the opportunity that is available to all in America. It’s really central to their concept of the country, because it has to be available and merit-based, right? If it’s not then you can’t blame people for not grabbing it.
PST
Walker’s academic career makes him sound a bit like Max Fischer without the charm.
Manyakitty
So do we see a Walker/Palin ticket, then? She’s already quit/ “not been renewed” from her other sources of grift.
RSA
@Kay:
Yes, close–the national number is 30%, based on the 2010 census. Here’s Walker’s story. As expected, he emphasizes the appealing parts of his college and early career years: he started working for the Red Cross, dropped out, got married, started a family, all within a few years. I think this makes talk about his not finishing college kind of irrelevant from a political perspective. Most people would be able to imagine themselves following such a path (whether Walker’s being completely truthful about things or not).
SFAW
@RSA:
I guess the question becomes: is “Walker’s story” real, or bullshit? If it’s real/accurate, then you’re probably right; if it’s prettied-up bullshit, then it would just be another example of his playing fast-and-loose with the truth, and might become a problem for him.
Paul in KY
@Mike in NC: Think he’s a little more cunning than Dubya. Real evil character.
Paul in KY
@NotoriousJRT: They’re his Orthogonians. he does seem to have a bit of Nixon in him (IMO).
maurinsky
@Suzanne – my father only went to school until 8th grade, and he accurately predicted all the big picture disasters that Reagan set into motion pretty early in Reagan’s administration. I don’t give a crap if Walker graduated from college or not – even if he had, he’d still be an idiot, and that’s the problem with relying on credentials. As someone else pointed out, Jindal is a Rhodes Scholar, and he’s also an idiot.
Kay
@RSA:
Thanks. I see that angle but I think there’s an equally compelling narrative of the person who does some different things, has a family and goes back. A lot of people do it. I went to a community college and fully half of the people were adults going back. They were admirable. They have a kind of buy-in to the idea of “advancing” that is very straightforward and not at all “elitist”. It works the other way too. Think how many times you have read the story of the celebrity who enrolls in college. We love that. “They didn’t have to go and they went anyway!” :)
I just think it’s a really complex thing. I have a sister in law who is a Tea Partier and she’s a really successful real estate agent in Indianapolis. She tells me at least once a year that my husband’s family looks down at her because she doesn’t have a degree. The thing is, this is not true! They absolutely value financial success! They’re not at all high brow, really. She’s reading this wrong and it’s coming from her sense that she needs the credential.
The Moar You Know
Walker’s not the second coming of W. He’s the second coming of Nixon, minus the brains (seriously, despite being made entirely out of flaws and rancid urine, Nixon was one of the more intelligent presidents we’ve had.)
He doesn’t have a real good chance of winning even with all the Koch money behind him, which is good, as he is easily the most dangerous one of the lot in the race.
Paul in KY
@SFAW: The national media HATED Al Gore. Supposedly, he was not helpful to them when he was VP & they needed a story. Plus, he didn’t fluff them enough.
Do not know if that was true or not (part after the HATING, know that was true).
Paul in KY
@Mnemosyne (tablet): I think they also liked Batshit McChimpy, because they could see he was going to give them (all rich people) big tax breaks. There was definitely (for them) a financial incentive to get that POS in power.
RSA
@Kay:
Yes, that is compelling, in some ways more so, with the hard work ethic (and sometimes it’s just a matter of luck who can do this and who can’t).
Another thing that bugs me about Walker, personally… Politico quotes Walker as saying, when he cut $250 million from the budget of the University of Wisconsin system and changed their tenure rules,
According to his contemporaries, Walker was too lazy to go to his own classes in college.
SFAW
@RSA:
“Do as I say, motherfucker(s), and not as I did, do, and will do in the future!”
ladyblug
@SatanicPanic: I am a Wisconsinite through and through, and the man is dangerous! He’s Richard Nixon without the charm, wit and good looks. And as for his bald spot, he claims it’s from hitting his head on a cabinet years ago~ that might explain his stupid facial expressions!
SFAW
@ladyblug:
Awesome line.
ladyblug
@Skippy-san: Yes!
dmbeaster
Its not so much about how he doesnt have a college degree, but about being unable to finish something rather important.
WisconsinInsider
Here’s a hint why Walker got kicked out of Marquette.
It’s the same reason he is physically incapable of breathing through his nose.
EthylEster
@22over7: google “rick perry college report card” and be amazed. he graduated from college but was clearly an extremely poor student. he got an A in two courses: World Military Systems and Improvement of Learning. The second course is frankly laughable.
C.S.
.
This is sort of a quibble, and not really substantive, but the Reagan who won the presidency in 1980 was a two term governor of California who had run a strong campaign in ’76, not even counting his SAG presidency and his involvement with the Goldwater campaign. He had been a professional politician for basically 15 years. Yes, Walker has held more different elected positions, but it seems like its a matter of degree and not of kind. Both are/were professional politicians, and well established as such for years.
louc
McCain graduated five class members away from dead last at the Naval Academy. It sure didn’t hold him back.
C.S.
@WisconsinInsider: I don’t get it . . .
MCA1
@Mike G: Ding ding ding! That’s the angle: “A lot of American college students don’t complete a 4 year degree. A lot of them don’t have the economic resources to keep going with their education. Some of them have a brilliant business idea that can’t wait. Some just quit and decide to become career politicians.”
Jeffro
@Omnes Omnibus: His “dirt” is right out there in the open: he is the Koch Brothers’ bought-and-paid for candidate this go-round. The contributions are public record, as are their own comments about who they favor (and why).
He is Romney without the personal wealth. He is Rove’s “50% + 1 vote = WIN” strategy in the flesh.
brantl
@Omnes Omnibus:
Seriously, the Republican party is a shitnado, what’s your point?
WisconsinInsider
@C.S.: What causes permanent damage to the nasal cavity and also would be cause for a college-kid, circa late 80s-early 90s, to get kicked out of a wealthy private school?
Tim from MI
I have this personal political theory. Americans will happily elect a charming nitwit more than once (see 1980, 2000), but they will never elect someone perceived as a dork (see Dukakis, Michael). And not to be mean, but Scott Walker radiates dweeb with a capital D. For this reason, I am confident he will not even survive the primaries.
SFAW
@WisconsinInsider:
Pepsi?
Paul in KY
@WisconsinInsider: Bolivian Marching Powder!!! He does seem a bit twitchy.