Thanks for all the support and good wishes. My husband is home, lying on the couch and watching his favorite team. His surgery went well, the doc was very pleased, and so far he hasn’t needed any of the Oxycontin that was prescribed for him.
I am amazed at the way surgery is done these days. His incision is less than 2′ wide, closed up with medical Super Glue.
I have a short list of things to watch for and things to do, all of them easy to take care of or easy to spot. In a couple of weeks he goes back to PT, but the pain in his leg is already relieved so we think the surgery is a success.
19.
Jeffro
@Jim: Walker/Cruz if Jeb! flames out. You heard it here second. Also, God help us all.
I know. I have become the very thing that I feared the most. I looked into the abyss, and while it was looking into me I noticed there were a bunch of italics (and unused commas) there. Also a lot of of‘s torn off the back of couple‘s.
22.
opiejeanne
@Steeplejack: Funny story, today in pre-op the nurse was going over my husband’s meds and asked him if he was currently on Lev-itra.
“i’m going out of my way to get aggravated by people and their opinions, won’t people stop aggravating me with their opinions”
Seriously John, you are courting this drama, stop whining when you get tired of it!
Which is to say, if you keep saying you don’t get it, and you keep asking people to explain it…and then still don’t get it, maybe stop asking and just accept you’ll never understand it. And move on. You are raising your blood pressure over something you personally can’t understand.
25.
Cacti
And the saddest part for Cole is that he can’t blame this on Bill or Hill.
Bernie’s wounds with black people are completely self-inflicted.
@Cacti: I’m more amused by the “WHY WON’T HE RESPOND WHILE WE ARE SHOUTING HIM DOWN” than anything else.
And I don’t think this is his fault. I blame his loudmouth asshole supporters who remind me of Paulites. They’re just insufferable and tone deaf and they JUST… DON’T… STOP…
I wouldn’t at all surprised to be mocking a Bernieis46.org site in a half year.
Regardless, anyone who thinks that this general election is going to turn on racial issues is insane. It will be about the economy and national security. In the primaries, this will be an issue. In the general, not so much.
27.
ronin122
Well looks like it’s gonna be a fun primary season on both ends. Dems will circular fire-squad as usual, and the GOP clown car continues to grow into a short yellow clown bus. Now’d be the time to buy stocks in alcoholic beverage companies.
National Review basically called Sanders a Nazi. (No, I won’t link.)
Really? Do they know his family background? Do they know what happened to his father’s family? Did National Review recently hire the Gawker editors?
30.
Steve from Antioch
Oh no, Bernie should have stood there and listened to the assholes yell at him and then invite them up on the stage so they could help him work in his self-criticism.
Fucking assholes are going to help get a Republican elected.
31.
Jordan Rules
I just saw an anti Iran deal ad on my TV. All ominous and stuff.
These people are hungry as hell for war. This combined with what Walker said about being ready to act before you take your first shit in the Oval is really giving me the heebie jeebies.
They are nuts and live off scaring the crap out of people.
JC, twitter is the land of memes and doing silly things with pics and gifs. You can damn near predict some of them coming. And I could see this one a mile away. LOL
32.
gian
@kped:
Clicks sell adds. This dustup generates clicks.
The Democratic Party doesn’t really have a base like the GOP. (Old religious white people). It has a coalition of groups with different priorities. Right now one of those groups is highly motivated. A while back there were disruptive activities by Latino activists (the may day marches the dreamers confronting Boehner etc.)
And I don’t think this is his fault. I blame his loudmouth asshole supporters who remind me of Paulites.
I agree re: his supporters and Paul’s.
But the honest belief that a $15/hour minimum wage is the solution to police brutality on racial minorities is all Bernie.
34.
Omnes Omnibus
@Brachiator: It is a Kevin Williamson piece. What do you expect?
35.
Belafon
And some wonder why extremists have a hard time getting people to listen.
36.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@John Cole: And I don’t think this is his fault. I blame his loudmouth asshole supporters who remind me of Paulites. They’re just insufferable and tone deaf and they JUST… DON’T… STOP…
And they wear Robin Hood hats. Little green Robin Hood hats.
37.
Joel
Where does Tommy Craggs go next? I see him shoveling shit for Breitbart.com sometime in the near future.
Regardless, anyone who thinks that this general election is going to turn on racial issues is insane. It will be about the economy and national security. In the primaries, this will be an issue. In the general, not so much.
I agree with your sentiment that Sanders is being largely unfairly attacked.
However, it is pointless to make definitive statements about what the general election will be about.
And the attacks on Sanders (and to a lesser degree some of those on Clinton) seem to have an undercurrent of giving black voters a reason to stay home and sit out the election.
And the attacks on Sanders (and to a lesser degree some of those on Clinton) seem to have an undercurrent of giving black voters a reason to stay home and sit out the election.
I agree.
40.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Brachiator: they hired Jonah Goldberg. Because his mommy rifled through some girl’s underwear drawer.
41.
GregB
Race is going to be an issue when candidate Ben Carson chooses Condi Rice as his running mate.
Not included in this article but heard on the local news just now: Fitzpatrick stated that we are in an information war and maybe if “they” see people looking like him guarding the Marines, they’ll think twice.
A guy with a sizable beer belly wearing an Old Navy t-shirt with a flag on it. Yep, they’ll think twice.
43.
ruemara
You’re being a real dick about this. And not learning a damned thing on twitter.
Really? Do they know his family background? Do they know what happened to his father’s family? Did National Review recently hire the Gawker editors?
Yes! His family background is the key point in calling Bernie Sanders a Nazi.
“In the Bernieverse, there’s a whole lot of nationalism mixed up in the socialism. He is, in fact, leading a national-socialist movement, which is a queasy and uncomfortable thing to write about a man who is the son of Jewish immigrants from Poland and whose family was murdered in the Holocaust. But there is no other way to characterize his views and his politics.” -Kevin Williamson, cover story for the National Review on July 6th.
Kevin Williamson’s twitter feed right now is basically him saying “But I didn’t say Nazi! How dare you accuse me of calling Bernie Sanders a Nazi!” I have yet to see him explain why he felt queasy calling a Jewish man a national socialist. If it’s a standard political term, then there is no reason to feel queasy. But for some reason he felt off about doing it. Then he did it.
“In the Bernieverse, there’s a whole lot of nationalism mixed up in the socialism. He is, in fact, leading a national-socialist movement…
What does this even mean? Nationalism mixed up in the socialism?
And given the WASP anti-semitism of many National Review editors, writers and readers, this kind of nonsense is Trump level self-inflicted wounds.
49.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Brachiator: I think it’s a thoughtful argument that has never before been made with such precision and care.
(actually, I think it’s complete fucking gibberish)
50.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: He’s now trying to pivot to a suggestion that Sanders favors a nationalistic socialism like that of Hugo Chavez.
51.
Alex
@Brachiator: His argument has two parts-
* Bernie Sanders is a self-described socialist.
* Bernie Sanders is an economic nationalist, maybe due to his alliance with labor unions that think the same thing (general opposition to trade deals, for American manufacturing).
Therefore, national socialist.
Also, they (Bernie, his followers, and/or Western European welfare system) are all really white and might hate minorities.
He also has some standard Williamson digs, such as sneering at Nirvana songs or mocking a grocery store for accepting EBT. Like “Here in a dreary, rundown, hideous little corner of Des Moines dotted with dodgy-looking bars and dilapidated groceries advertising their willingness to accept EBT payments…” -Kevin Williamson
52.
BubbaDave
Fucking black people wanting to talk about “maybe the cops shouldn’t be able to kill us with impunity” and “Presidential candidates should make commitments to fight racism in the criminal justice system” when white folks are trying to talk about important things, amirite?
@Alex: Yeah this wingnut literally has nothing other than “his campaign has nationalism and socialism, so that makes him a national socialist!” And he can only make that tortured argument because he apparently thinks populism is the same thing as nationalism.
The entire basis for the piece is so obviously “how can I juggle words around so they add up to Bernie Sanders being a Nazi,” presented with the tone of a toddler proudly showing his parents how he made one in the potty.
54.
Suzanne
I agree that Bernie Sanders has some learning to do on race, and I probably won’t vote for the guy, but I don’t get the liberals here who are basically saying that he’s a worthless candidate because of his views regarding racism being a result of racist economic policy. For that matter, I don’t agree with the other group of liberals who note that Hillz fucked up her Iraq vote (but they seldom mention that she acknowledged that she was wrong) and that makes her a worthless candidate, too.
We can’t die on every hill here.
55.
guachi
Things I didn’t realize until this afternoon when I looked it up and did the math – despite Obama losing by 27 points among white men, more white men voted for Obama than black men and women combined.
56.
lamh36
Hmmm, this is what I learned on twitter today:
@viaAlana: Mathis: Bail bondsman who spoke to #SandraBland says she was afraid for her safety. Only had $100, not enough to post $500 bond.
Fucking black people wanting to talk about “maybe the cops shouldn’t be able to kill us with impunity” and “Presidential candidates should make commitments to fight racism in the criminal justice system” when white folks are trying to talk about important things, amirite?
Thoroughly disrespectful of them to yammer about how their lives matter when a white man is trying to talk.
I agree that Bernie Sanders has some learning to do on race,
Sanders was an early member, perhaps an organizer of SNCC. I do not know why he has not played this up in interviews, but it suggests that perhaps people need to do more learning about Sanders than he has to do some learning about race.
Castro regime critics on Capitol Hill paid scant regard Wednesday to President Obama’s appeal for Congress to back his decision to restore diplomatic relations with Havana. Several pledged instead to oppose any nominee for U.S. ambassador to Cuba and withhold funds for construction work on a reopened U.S. Embassy.
66.
Suzanne
@Brachiator: As I mentioned in the last threads about this, I did not go to Netroots Nation, but I did attend the Sanders rally in Phoenix that was held later that day (in the same venue but in a different meeting hall than NN, so undoubtedly lots of overlap in attendees). Sanders specifically addressed the issue of police brutality against the Black community and said that he would throw the full weight of the law into any investigation of any cop.
This was only a couple of hours after the Black Lives Matter protest, and he already realized that he had to address it directly. So I do think the dude is getting with the program. I wish the liberal circular firing squad could hold their fire rather than talk about how much he just epically sucks.
67.
Omnes Omnibus
@Suzanne: Have you been on the left for very long?
68.
opiejeanne
@debbie: I bet they (the recruiters) feel so much safer.
What a bunch of idiots.
69.
dogwood
@Suzanne:
“We can’t die on every hill here.”
For a few people that’s the goal. Nothing you can do about it.
As I mentioned in the last threads about this, I did not go to Netroots Nation
I saw some of these posts. Good stuff.
I wish the liberal circular firing squad could hold their fire rather than talk about how much he just epically sucks
Some people are just glad to be unhappy.
72.
dogwood
@Suzanne:
If you hang around politics long enough you find that familiarity breeds contempt.
73.
Tree With Water
@Suzanne: Robert Kennedy admitted to having his eyes opened in a famous sit down with civil rights leaders circa 1966 (MLK was not in attendance). I recall it being said Kennedy was angry-stunned when confronted by the black activists with truths that he didn’t enjoy hearing. To his credit, though, he did listen, and confessed later to having learned… and then he got shot.
74.
sparrow
@gian: Notably, the dreamers confronted someone a) with the ostensible power of doing something and b) currently on the wrong side of the issue.
Sanders was an early member, perhaps an organizer of SNCC. I do not know why he has not played this up in interviews, but it suggests that perhaps people need to do more learning about Sanders than he has to do some learning about race.
That’s only going to go so far – at some point, it’ll look like he’s just trying to cruise on what he did 40+ years ago.
Robert Kennedy admitted to having his eyes opened in a famous sit down with civil rights leaders circa 1966 (MLK was not in attendance).
Are you confusing this with an earlier meeting? And obviously, RFK was involved in the civil rights movement indirectly for years as attorney general and adviser to his brother. And his views evolved over time, along with his strong sense of empathy.
In any event, the meeting was in 1963 and did not go over well:
The Baldwin–Kennedy meeting of May 24, 1963 was an attempt to improve race relations in the United States. Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy (“RFK”) invited novelist James Baldwin, along with a large group of cultural leaders, to meet in a Kennedy apartment in New York City. The meeting became antagonistic and the group reached no consensus. The black delegation generally felt that Kennedy did not understand the full extent of racism in the United States. Ultimately the meeting demonstrated the urgency of the racial situation and was a positive turning point in Kennedy’s attitude towards the civil rights movement.
You beat me to it. To use an extreme example, Charlton Heston marched with Dr. King and participated in marches and public boycotts. Diddn’t stop him from having effed-up racial attitudes and being a Reagan supporter 20 years later.
Oh, I wouldn’t say wrong – I was registering my vehement disgust at the NR piece more than anything. I mean, there’s almost no depths to which they won’t sink, as long as they can put a veneer of erudition over it.
88.
BubbaDave
@guachi:
If I were any whiter my skin would actually illuminate a room when I walked in. But trust me, I share your concern about the limited amount of attention being paid to white people. So marginalized!
Basically sums this whole thing up. The butt-hurt we’ve seen since this thing went down this weekend is strong (and hilarious).
Funny how many so-called progressives lose their shit when it’s their boy who gets called out for his dismissive attitude towards POC (“racism is over”, “blacks only voted for Obama because he’s black”).
Muthafucka, you need us a whole helluva lot more than we need you.
That’s only going to go so far – at some point, it’ll look like he’s just trying to cruise on what he did 40+ years ago.
Given that SNCC was the more activist wing of the 60s civil rights movement, this would be more than just cruising on past accomplishments. And this involvement was much more than marching with civil rights leaders.
This also gives him a great deal of credibility compared to some of his critics. But I am not suggesting that he rest on these laurels. But it does directly contradict those who imply that he has been apart from and above civil rights issues. To the contrary, he was in the thick of it.
I would think, though, that he should be more assertive in connecting his past with his present views and activities.
91.
Omnes Omnibus
@Linnaeus: Okay, tone on the internet can be odd. I understated intentionally when I posted my original comment. I assumed that people would see that.
Sanders was an early member, perhaps an organizer of SNCC. I do not know why he has not played this up in interviews, but it suggests that perhaps people need to do more learning about Sanders than he has to do some learning about race.
That is not a get out of jail card. That buys you some grace, but you need to back it up with current solutions.
And from what I saw and heard, Sanders did not handle it well—his withdrawal from interviews and meetings and failure to follow up does indeed give the impression he doesn’t care…and it’s entirely self inflicted
96.
Thoroughly Pizzled
We all need each other. What are we even fighting about anymore? The protest seems to have tipped off Bernie and O’Malley that they need to give serious attention to race issues — didn’t it do its job?
To use an extreme example, Charlton Heston marched with Dr. King and participated in marches and public boycotts.
Being involved in and an organizer of SNCC is very different from just participating in marches. This activity puts Bernie at least partly inside the strategy sessions of the 60s civil rights movement in a way that few other people can say. And from here one can easily examine Sanders’ political record. He may not be as hot about racial matters as some would like him to be, but to suggest that he may lack some fundamental understanding about race does not hold up to scrutiny.
98.
cokane
@AxelFoley: why is “racism is over” in quotes? Is that something Sanders said?
99.
Omnes Omnibus
@Thoroughly Pizzled: In my view, yes. And HRC addressed a number of those issues in an interview today. So, let’s count it as a successful protest.
Things I didn’t realize until this afternoon when I looked it up and did the math – despite Obama losing by 27 points among white men, more white men voted for Obama than black men and women combined.
And where did your racist punk ass get these numbers?
I would think, though, that he should be more assertive in connecting his past with his present views and activities.
Well, that’s just it. If he’s not more assertive about connecting his record to the present day and how that demonstrates that he takes these issues seriously in their own right, then that raises the question as to why.
This is not a get out of jail card. That buys you some grace, but you need to back it up with current solutions.
I agree about the need to back it up. But it’s funny. I’m not even a big Sanders supporter, but when someone wants to criticize him about a lack of understanding, I will want to know what, exactly, his critics have done with respect to civil rights.
@AxelFoley: why is “racism is over” in quotes? Is that something Sanders said?
He said it last year in an interview.
107.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope:Come on. The interruptions were due to who was speaking not the the topic of the discussion. People who cannot recognize this aren’t worth conversation.
@Brachiator: Oh, please don’t go there. Just don’t. It’s patronizing as hell…and very prone to getting yourself schooled on who’s done exactly what on things you didn’t know about because there so damn much information out there that it’s impossible to keep up with everything.
What are his policies now? How are they going to help now, and how are they different from the past progressive policies that were perverted by baked in institutional racism (a la the New Deal)?
110.
Suzanne
@AxelFoley: It is the nature of the political left in this country that we are a broad coalition and that we only have a hope of winning even shitty partial victories if we all get our asses on the party line together. Unfortunately, that has meant that some groups have not gotten enough specific attention paid to their issues, and I absolutely concur that the issues facing the African-American community typically end up too far down the line. I would much prefer if all the different marginalized groups could see each other as allies and actually be allies, rather than taking potshots at each other, because I truly believe we’d do a better job of advancing an agenda that benefits all of us if we did that. We need each other. I truly don’t see any good coming for the Black community if y’all sit this election out. In fact, I think it would be suicidal and would set your agenda back years. But WTF do I know.
Um, you’re not actually asking what the people from Black Lives Matter have done for civil rights, are you? You’re talking about random internet and Twitter commenters and not the activists at NN, right?
112.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: In my view, yes. And HRC addressed a number of those issues in an interview today. So, let’s count it as a successful protest.
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) has a brilliant idea. Instead of militarizing local police departments with tanks and heavy equipment, the country should take the billions of dollars and use it to create jobs.
you know…
Of all the issues [Hillary Clinton] hopes will fire up key parts of the Democratic base, voting rights is among the most potent. It is a near perfect fusion of idealism and practical politics.
they hadn’t been.
This spring, Webb (D-Va.) plans to introduce legislation on a long-standing passion of his: reforming the U.S. prison system. Jails teem with young black men who later struggle to rejoin society, he says. Drug addicts and the mentally ill take up cells that would be better used for violent criminals. And politicians have failed to address this costly problem for fear of being labeled “soft on crime.”
113.
Omnes Omnibus
@AxelFoley: You may want to step the fuck back. I was talking to you. You are talking to me. Go find some of the “white progressive” quotes from me. I’ll look in the morning.
@AxelFoley:
He’s an ass, but those numbers don’t seem unlikely to me. The percentage of the electorate that is white/male is much higher than the percentage that is black.
116.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Post a functional link and I will consider not laughing at you.
117.
Suzanne
I will also note that NN was in Phoenix this year, and this city and state have had their own specific problems with racism, though in regards to the Latino community. In fact, our fabulous Sheriff Joke is facing a whole slew of legal problems because of how he policed Latinos and raids communities and failed to investigate sexual assaults against Latinas. This is also a place that has a huge number of undocumented immigrants and a young immigrant population. NN focused on that this year, and that issue is also very timely. I guarantee you that Latino rights activists, of which I know many, are feeling like the wind got sucked out of their sails because of all the coverage of this incident. That’s really the media’s fault for not being able to focus on two things at once, but this is how various constituencies get pissed at each other, when in order to be successful, we all need to support each other.
Here’s the interview you mentioned, with NPR back in November:
Well, here’s what you got. What you got is an African-American president, and the African-American community is very, very proud that this country has overcome racism and voted for him for president. And that’s kind of natural. You’ve got a situation where the Republican Party has been strongly anti-immigration, and you’ve got a Hispanic community which is looking to the Democrats for help.
But that’s not important. You should not be basing your politics based on your color. What you should be basing your politics on is, how is your family doing?
I’m not on Twitter so maybe I have my rose-colored glasses on, but if all of the Democratic candidates are now discussing race and policing issues (or at least getting more attention for existing discussions) where they weren’t before, I think we have to count that as a clear win for #BLM.
The interruptions were due to who was speaking not the the topic of the discussion. People who cannot recognize this aren’t worth conversation.
The candidates were already there attempting to speak to the needs of another marginalized community and BLM took away from them. All these candidates by and large are on the right side of these issues. Some have even done significant work on improving things. I even think they probably did the campaigns a favor in the form of getting them to think about these issues more urgently, which might help them attract supporters. Still, this seems strangely aggressive given the target. All I’m saying is that better target selection might be in order.
121.
mtiffany
Can’t we all just talk about our mutual love of pie?
Here’s a bit of the problem, though — how much of a force is the Latino vote in Arizona politics? They don’t seem to have much of an influence, though that may be due to gerrymandering. Same in Texas — people keep talking about what a powerful voting block Latinos could be, if they turned out to vote.
African-Americans, on the other hand, are a known and reliable voting block for Democrats. I can see why they might get annoyed at being ignored while Dems chase after a block that doesn’t vote consistently in a lot of states. (California is a major exception — Latinos here are a large and powerful voting block and one of the reasons we’ve gone so strongly Democrat in the past few years.)
123.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: No, you fundamentally don’t understand the protests. They protested in front where they would get attention.
124.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Those were all from prior to this event. Hillary’s was from earlier this year, Bernie’s from last year, Webb from 08 (when he was in office), O’Malley signed voter right legislation in office however long ago. Getting the candidates thinking about another sector of the electorate will be good for them in the long run, but disrupt protests just seem like the wrong tool for the wrong job. This seems better suited to a town council meeting or legislative session.
Dude, you really had to pick ruemara to unload on? Really?
Yeah, you’re being a dick. Also being pointlessly assholish to people who don’t deserve it. Step back.
127.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: Lefty blogs are not the world and were already talking about these issues too and the story in the MSM was predictably “Dems in disarray.”
I completely disagree. As someone pointed out when this first happened, Netroots Nation is known for this kind of thing. Someone gets booed or shouted down or protested every year.
And, yeah, I can’t help but notice that some people (present company excepted) loved it when it was Obama’s representative who got booed offstage in 2010 (IIRC) but are all upset that their sacred cow is the one that got gored this year.
130.
Suzanne
@Mnemosyne (tablet): AZ has a high percentage of undocumented immigrants compared to other states, so a lot of that community is not eligible to vote. We have lots of Dreamers and families of mixed citizenship, and the immigration issue is vital and timely for them. We do have two majority-minority Congressional districts (out of 9)—both represented by Dems. We also have a fairly small AA population. In my experience, Latinos are the ones that face the most racial discrimination and have the worst economic circumstances here. So no, they do not have an electoral pull equal to their numbers.
131.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Great. Now, put it in a coherent sentence.
What he has said that good jobs for everyone would make a lot of things better for everyone.
And what Sanders usually precedes that with is “We should stop militarizing the police, and take the money being spent on that nonsense, and use it to fund education and jobs in the communities that most need them.” He said just as much to Ed Schultz on MSNBC during Ferguson. (Too tired to find the link — I posted it one of the previous threads on this topic).
@Mnemosyne (tablet): I deleted it. I didn’t mean to unload on Ruemara (and really didn’t- I just sort of shotgunned all my frustrations and because I was responding to her comment indirectly, it seemed like it). It honestly was not directed at her, more to everyone.
134.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: Relax, buddy. The text box doesn’t always pick up my key-strokes. One of the three provided links failed. What is your major malfunction?
And, yeah, I can’t help but notice that some people (present company excepted) loved it when it was Obama’s representative who got booed offstage in 2010 (IIRC) but are all upset that their sacred cow is the one that got gored this year.
For what it’s worth, I wasn’t on board that train either.
I do think Sandra Bland’s death pushed people over the edge and made their issue feel more urgent right this moment than immigration issues, but I can also see why the people who did want to discuss immigration and Latino issues would feel brushed aside right now. It’s a tough balance to strike.
Lefty blogs are not the world and were already talking about these issues too and the story in the MSM was predictably “Dems in disarray.”
This would be the same MSM that hires the likes of Don Lemon? The man who thought Goole Earth is a real-time display of the Earth, and that a black hole swallowed an airplane? That MSM? Them? The “both sides do it,” “there’s debate among scientists about global warming,” “do business owners with religious objections to same-sex marriage have to serve gay couples?” and the Fox-and-Friends-lite Joe and Mika shitshow ought to pollute the airwaves for three hours each weekday morning MSM? Fuck them.
If ‘lefty blogs’ is all we’ve got, then that’s all we’ve got.
142.
Omnes Omnibus
@John Cole: Dude, you really need to chill. Take a walk, Make some tea.
Yes, that’s why I excepted present company from my statement — I don’t think anyone here was cheering on the other protests at NN. I’m just pointing out that expecting NN to be a sedate exchange of ideas is like expecting there to be no fights at a hockey game.
144.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Sorry, I wasn’t certain that you didn’t just mean yourself, my bad.
145.
wasabi gasp
@Cacti: Axel was having a hard enough time already, then you go and squash his quotes. Someone should apologize. Probably Bernie.
@Omnes Omnibus: Talking to you is pointless. Does that suffice?
148.
sparrow
@Cacti: I read that as “we have overcome enough of racism to elect a black president” (which is a perfectly valid statement), not “all problems are solved, geez why can’t you guys stop talking about race, I don’t even SEE race” type of comment that you get typically from right-wingers that declare racism is over.
Oh, please don’t go there. Just don’t. It’s patronizing as hell…and very prone to getting yourself schooled on who’s done exactly what on things you didn’t know about because there so damn much information out there that it’s impossible to keep up with everything.
It’s not a contest. But some people don’t even try to do their homework. They make assumptions or jump on board weak character assassination insinuations. There is too much riding on the upcoming election for this kind of nonsense.
What are his policies now? How are they going to help now, and how are they different from the past progressive policies that were perverted by baked in institutional racism (a la the New Deal)?
This all remains to be seen, doesn’t it? And I presume that you expect this of all the presidential candidates.
@Mnemosyne (tablet)
Um, you’re not actually asking what the people from Black Lives Matter have done for civil rights, are you?
No.
150.
cokane
@Cacti: he’s clearly saying racism still persists.
I will want to know what, exactly, his critics have done with respect to civil rights.
Insinuate that anyone that didn’t instantly understand their demands and concerns was an unreconstructed racist? And then use the rightly-felt offense at the implication as a rhetorical cudgel that “You wouldn’t be offended by the allegation that you’re a racist if you weren’t a racist.”
152.
Betty Cracker
@mtiffany: I did feel a little sorry for O’Malley when I watched the clip. It was obvious he didn’t know about the “all lives matter” crap from Twitter, so he walked right into that and was confused when he got booed. I wonder if the campaign gurus are thinking about adding staff so they can more closely monitor social media trends and avoid stepping on Twitter landmines.
153.
mtiffany
@Betty Cracker:
I have such conflicted feelings about O’Malley — what he says gives me, as the kids say, “all the feels” (not that I agree with him on everything — “retirement savings accounts” in addition to SocSec or as a replacement?) but the way he governed (as mayor and governor) — the more I read about his record, that gets harder to embrace or defend…
But yeah, when you’re invited to speak, you kind of have the expectation that you’ll be allowed to speak. And for a while, I absolutely loathed the protesters that interrupted him and essentially demanded the stage and booed him when he said “All lives matter,” because at first, it really came across (to me) as “fuck whitey.”
And so far as Twitter is concerned, that is not just a minefield, but a minefield built in toxic-waste landfill that’s been flooded with sewage to become a swamp. What I can say about Twitter — best to stick to Tweeting cat pics. And adorable vines of adorable puppies.
People who believe a 75 year old socialist is going to win a national election – now THATS white privilege.
P.S.
If Hillary had pulled the same shit Sanders did at NN, the vaunted blogosphere would be tearing her to bits. Oh, but Sanders is the Messiah so he gets a free pass.
155.
Betty Cracker
@mtiffany: I saw your Silence = Death analogy earlier, and it’s a good one. I’m old enough to remember those awful days when friends were dying right and left. I didn’t give a shit if ACT UP hurt people’s feelings. The BLM people are feeling that now, and it’s understandable.
I’m also iffy on O’Malley. Hell, I’m iffy on everyone of them. But I’ll get behind whoever eventually gets the nomination because it’s important to keep the crazies out. We’ve made some progress with Obama that needs protecting.
156.
Betty Cracker
@David Koch: I don’t know anyone who seriously believes Sanders is going to win; some of us are happy he’s in it because he’s bringing wealth inequality and money in politics issues front and center, and those are important topics.
But you’re completely full of shit about Sanders getting a pass. He’s getting ripped to shreds all over the place. Some of the criticism is warranted — I think he handled the protest incident badly.
But some of it is self-righteous preening and ugly grandstanding that does nothing but unnecessarily piss off fellow Democrats and make the people leveling that brand of criticism look like assholes.
Here’s the interview [Sanders] with NPR back in November:
Well, here’s what you got. What you got is an African-American president, and the African-American community is very, very proud that this country has overcome racism and voted for him for president. And that’s kind of natural. You’ve got a situation where the Republican Party has been strongly anti-immigration, and you’ve got a Hispanic community which is looking to the Democrats for help.
But that’s not important. You should not be basing your politics based on your color. What you should be basing your politics on is, how is your family doing?
So wealthy and middle class blacks, latinos, jews, and women should only vote on income?
Don’t you see how out of touch, privileged, and stoopid that is?
Trayvon Martin was murdered walking home in a gated community. Should his family vote based on their income?
But some of it is self-righteous preening and ugly grandstanding that does nothing but unnecessarily piss off fellow Democrats and make the people leveling that brand of criticism look like assholes.
I’m sure that’s true. I don’t doubt you. But you just also described the behavior of Sanders-stans for the past 3 months.
Not basing your politics on the color of your skin is an ideal. It’s debatable, even. But it’s not “stoopid.”
160.
Betty Cracker
@David Koch: I’m sure some Sanders supporters on the Internet have been condescending assholes. On the other hand, so have you and your pal Cacti, right here at Balloon Juice, on damn near every thread where this topic is discussed. You keep waving the above quote around like a trump card, as if that’s the only thing Sanders has ever said on the issue. It’s not. He also said this a few weeks ago:
Clearly, police brutality and what goes on in African-American communities and other communities is a huge issue…. The question is: How do you have police departments in this country that are part of their communities, not oppressors in their communities? How do you have police officers who, when they commit acts of crime, are held accountable and are indicted? How do you have police officers receiving the proper training that they need? How do we demilitarize our police departments? All of these are important issues. The good news is that, as a country, we are paying far more attention to this issue than we previously did. If anyone thinks that the kind of police brutality that we’re seeing now is something new, they are sorely mistaken. The good news, in a sense, is that it’s now becoming public and we’re seeing it and talking about it.
There has to be, I think, a significant change in police culture in terms of [the use of force]. That is a major issue that has to be dealt with. And we will deal with it, period.
The other thing, to be frank, that does trouble me is that there is so little discussion about African-American youth unemployment. How do you discuss Ferguson and not know that, in that particular community, unemployment is off the charts? How do you discuss Baltimore and not know that, in that particular community, unemployment is off the charts? African-American youth unemployment in this country is 50 percent, and one out of three African-American males born today stands the possibility of ending up in jail if present trends continue. This is a disaster. So, of course, we’ve got to talk about police brutality; of course, we’ve got to talk about reforming our criminal-justice system; of course, we’ve got to make sure that we are educating our kids and giving them job training and not sending them to jail. But I get a little distressed that people are not talking about what I consider to be a huge problem: How do you not talk about African-American youth unemployment at 50 percent?
And since the BLM protest this weekend, he’s said more on the police brutality issue — it appears the protest underscored that issue for him and that he’s talking about it more. Isn’t that a good thing? Wasn’t that the whole goddamned point?
I’ve got no illusions Sanders is going to win the nomination, but it’s not stupid, crazy or racist to focus on economic issues — that’s Sanders’ thing and always has been. If you think he’s not paying enough attention to what’s important to you — fine, support someone else. And when Sanders stumbles like he did in AZ, it’s fair to point that out. But I don’t get the need to relentlessly attack Sanders like you’re doing. If the object is to move others to your point of view, you’re doing it wrong.
I saw your Silence = Death analogy earlier, and it’s a good one.
Thanks. I was on Twitter on Sunday (but have since burned the account) and could not for the life of me figure out “what are they* so angry about?!” And a kind-hearted Twit told me that I didn’t really give a shit about black people because (paraphrasing here) “now that you faggots can get married you don’t need to pretend to care anymore,” accusing me of IGMFY, I guess, but it’s nice when people take the time to read your Twitter profile. And the intersection of ‘faggots’ from the BLM Twit and my “why are they angry?” eventually brought me back to 1991 and being told “Why are you gays so angry? Clinton is good on gays.” That was the ah-ha moment for me. Thing is, we were assholes back then. In-your-face you-don’t-fucking-get-it-you-entitled-straight-piece-of-shit activists.
The BLM people are feeling that now, and it’s understandable.
But Twitter… by the Starchy Residue of His Drained Colander, the loudest and most vocal BLM activists on Twitter were just rancourous twatwaffles. I went on Twitter to try to figure out what the hell went down — “I don’t understand what you’re trying to do here, why are you mad at Sanders, help me out…” — there’s that third part of the disrupt, enrage, and engage strategy and May My Flesh Be Scalded In The Pot Of Boiling Water In Which Our Host Is Prepared I never once got engaged on the issue — it was just accusations of racism and being a Bernie-stan — which a former regular MSNBC contributor called me when she said she didn’t have time to waste on me.
ACT UP had copious amounts of entitlement and righteous indignation, but the point was to wound people (and yes, it was to wound and hurt people’s feelings) enough to make them confront the issue so that you could engage them and bring them around, “this is what’s happening to us, this is how you can help,” not just keep ripping the wound open wider and deeper and pissing in it and then throwing salt on top, and that’s all Twitter was on Sunday.
And the optics of the protest that are now forming aren’t so great. There’s that picture of Tia Oso on stage between Vargas and O’Malley. She’s smiling, but that picture of her up there alone may come back to haunt the movement. When a mass of people do disrupt, enrage, and engage, that’s protest. When you only see one person do it, that’s the DSM definition of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. And that’s how people can spin it. But then again, the optics of ACT UP were criticized too. I’m not saying ACT UP did it better (but I’m sure some helpful soul will accuse me of whitesplaining or gaysplaining or whatever), but it was before the Internet and the instant dissemination of images and sounds and it took longer for opinions to form and you had time to breathe and figure things out.
Today, it’s like people have to figure it out instantly, and if they can’t wrap their head around the issue perfectly, they’re not really trying or #ShutUpTheWhiteMenAreTalking or whatver douchery is floating about.
I get it now, or at least, “#BlackLivesMatter is the modern day SILENCE = DEATH” is how I understand the underlying reasons and strategies of the BLM movement, but there comes a time when you have to stop being angry at everything and picking fights with everyone and actually try to bring people around. And the people who aren’t ‘getting it’ (The Bernie-stans WETF that means) by sticking to “They didn’t let O’Malley and Sanders speak” are missing the point too. But the protesters and activists have an obligation (Yes.) to say “It’s not about silencing O’Malley and Sander, it’s about us being heard. We’re not being allowed to speak, You aren’t listening to us. We’re dying and we need your help to make it stop and we can’t wait for you to figure it out on your own comfortable timetable any more. Will you please just LISTEN TO ME!!!”
There’s so much to unpack about this. My head hurts. I need pie.
*NB: Not the Ross Perot ‘they,’ or ‘you people.’
162.
Joel
@ruemara: I agree with you on the former, but Twitter is a poor educational vehicle.
163.
Joel
By the way, Jesus Christ folks, running a coalition is hard.
If Bernie and Tommy Carcetti can’t fucking swim in the kiddie pool, they are not ready for primetime.
No, what’s stupid is telling POC that their voting rationale isn’t as important as his. That’s condescending and out of touch. “Listen to me, I know what’s best for you,” isn’t going to fly.
I don’t think this is a circular firing squad. This is a teachable moment. I think those calling it a CFS are trying their hardest to avoid introspection on this topic.
BLM is asking the candidates to earn their vote in the primary. Black Twitter is full of people who were/are genuinely Sanders curious and want him to move beyond his economics focus and engage in social justice specifics. Wealth redistribution AND justice redistribution. Sanders’ reaction, along with his online fanboys trying to inoculate him from any criticism because he marched in the 60s, have pissed off a lot of these people and their mockery is painful because it’s true.
If Sanders were still so aware, IMO, he would recall that the civil rights leaders he marched with made a point to emphasize social justice for minorities because a war on poverty does not make voting rights or law enforcement abuse magically go away. I mean, fuck, are we all that obtuse? STILL?!
Well, yes — but take heart that most of the real world has moved on or back to Trump and the RNC race. No one cares about this crap because NN is, well, clearly a bit of a “kiddie pool”.
Screw white people; it’s the idea that there aren’t other genuinely oppressed groups in this country who also deserve some time that’s sticking in my craw.
167.
different-church-lady
@mtiffany: I guess what’s confusing me right now is this idea that if Sanders and O’Malley and me and you and everyone else on BJ would just SHUT THE FUCK UP AND LISTEN then somehow cops would no longer kill innocent black people.
168.
Kay
My one and only take on it is Clinton was booed at NN in 2007 and her campaign was over-shadowed at the NN on Detroit by the Ready for Warren folks (I was there) so she didn’t show up this year.
I don’t think it’s fair for the front-runner to get a complete pass. Bill Clinton sucked on criminal justice issues. He grandstanded on crime and played the southern prosecutor card to the hilt, as I remember it. Worse, I think he believed it- he loved shit like “boot camps for juveniles”. A lot of that stuff is discredited- it was crappy policy. He was wrong.
She should be asked about that since it is unlikely Sanders wins and likely she’s the nominee.
Muthafucka, you need us a whole helluva lot more than we need you.
2012 electorate:
White 72%
Black 13%
Hispanic 10%
Asian 3%
Other 2%
Good luck with your purity party.
171.
mtiffany
@different-church-lady: I’ll explain this as best I can, please believe me when I say that I’m writing this in good faith, (once you’ve got their attention engage them): here’s what I’d like you to hear. If you’re angry that O’Malley and Sanders got interrupted, that we silenced them unfairly, you’re right to feel that way. If you’re angry that people have implied that you were racist or a bigot or even that you just plain didn’t care, you have a right to feel angry. Your feelings are real, your opinions are valid, and you are a human being — worthy of dignity and respect, but right now I’d like to move on from your feelings and your dignity and ask you to think about this:
Nizah Morris was a transgendered drag performer. After a night out attending a party at a bar in Philadelphia, police reports say that Nizah was offered a courtesy ride by a Philadelphia Police officer. Fifteen minutes after accepting the ride, Nizah was found on a sidewalk, beaten and unconcious from severe head trauma. She was transported to a hospital but died days later when life support was withdrawn at the request of her family. No suspects have ever been identified in her murder.
Trayvon Martin was 17 years old when he was gunned down by George Zimmerman. Zimmerman went to court, got tried, and got off under a law that let him ‘stand his ground.’ The law let an adult man with a gun kill an unarmed 17-year old black child who didn’t even threaten that adult man and the law didn’t call it murder.
Michael Brown was 18 years old when he was shot dead by a Ferguson, MO, police officer. He was unarmed when he was shot, and his corpse was left in the sun for hours. When the community protested, the police sent in armored personnel vehicles, and used tear gas and rubber bullets. Police officers even point automatic weapons at people who were armed with nothing more than their outrage and their voices.
Eric Garner was accused of selling loose cigarettes on a New York City street corner. When he denied the accusation he was surrounded by a group of police officers and put in a choke hold. He said “I can’t breate” over and over and over again, and he only stopped saying that he couldn’t breathe after the police officer had choked him to death.
Cynthia Marie Graham Hurd, 54, Susie Jackson, 87, Ethel Lee Lance, 70, Depayne Middleton-Doctor, 49, Clementa C. Pinckney, 41, Tywanza Sanders, 26, Daniel Simmons, 74, Sharonda Coleman-Singleton, 45, and Myra Thompson, 59, were gathered at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church for Bible study, when they welcomed in a stranger, Dylann Roof, to join them. Roof shot and killed them. The survivors and witnesses to the massacre report that Roof said “I have to do it. You rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go.” The surviviors also report that he while he was shooting he was yelling “nigger” and other racial epithets at the people he was murdering. A five year-old girl present in the church only survived the shooting by pretending to play dead. A five year old girl is only alive today because she pretended to play dead. After Roof murdered those nine people and was captured and in custody, the police went to get fast food. When an office inquired of Roof how long it had been since he had last eaten, the police included Roof’s order in their fast food run. The police bought a man Burger King after he murdered nine people.
Sandra Bland was driving to a new life and a new job when she pulled over by the police, allegedly for making an unsignaled turn and for using her cellphone while driving. While in police custody, she was found hanging in her jail cell. The noose was fashioned from a black plastic garbage bag. The death is being investigated as a homicide.
I’d like to consider for a moment the lives those names represent. Real people. Real people who are now dead.
Now I want to ask you — whose silencing makes you more angry? O’Malley and Sanders, or theirs? What should you be more angry about? What do you think we’re angry about? I’m not blaming you for their deaths, but there is a plague of violence in this country and it is killing black people every day.
And I don’t want you to be silent about it. If you’re angry about these deaths, if you feel even the slightest bit out outrage about it, you can’t be silent about it. We need you to scream about it, we need you to get angry about, and we need you to get your friends and your family angry about. We need you to join us.
And then we need you start screaming at every elected offical that represents you. Call and write and email the President, and both of your Senators and your Congressman, and your Governor, and your State Representative and your State Senator and the mayor of your town and the chief of police and every member of your county board of supervisors. Tell them that this plague is killing us and that they need to help stop it.
Tell them that they need to end the militarization of the police. Tell them that the police need to wear body cameras at all times. Tell them that black people are not automatically a threat, or a suspect, or “up to no good” just because they’re out after dark and they’re wearing a hoodie. And tell them there’s no excuse to choke a man to death, especially when he’s crying out that he can’t breathe. Tell them Black Lives Matter,
and for the love of god, don’t be silent any more,
your silence is killing us.
172.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: She was asked about it in a Facebook Q&A yesterday and gave a pretty solid answer, I thought. She also gave a speech a while back that indicates her approach would be very different from Bill Clinton’s, and he has even admitted his approach made things worse. I’m not sold on HRC or any other candidate yet, but it sure appears she’s learned from past mistakes or at least realizes times have changed.
173.
Kay
In other words, If we’re going to have challenges to Democrats on the Left I sure hope we also see some challenges to centrist Democrats, because centrist Democrats hold all the power and centrist Democrats were always the “law ‘n order” branch.
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Yes but Sanders doesn’t have effe’d up racist beliefs and has never supported the Republicans. Its true that past performance is no guarantee of future etc… but its not necessary to accuse a middle of the road white socialist of being an out and out racist. He’s really not. He might still have a lot of learning to do but if he’s not educable then what’s the point of even trying to address his campaign? BLM has to have a two pronged attack: gain attention/force the issue and then work with the (hopefully) educated and chastened politicians who they are trying to influence. Bernie and HRC are people who need to be forced, or educated, to move in a certain direction. They aren’t the enemy. And they aren’t republicans.
That’s great because it was never progressives in the Democratic Party who ran on law and order; draconian criminal justice stuff. It was always the centrists. As I remember it was part of the magical Third Way recipe for carrying states like Arkansas.
BLM and progressives have something in common in the Democratic Party. They both feel they’re ignored and taken for granted by the institutional DC-based Party. They’re both trying to shake up the same organization.
Most of this fracas on twitter has been perpetuated by Sanders’ alleged supporters. Like, it wasn’t enough to be like, hey, he screwed up, that’s mighty weird. No, they had to argue the point and concern troll Black media and bully potential Black voters and for what? They’re not making Sanders look good with this stuff. Sanders himself put out a statement supportive of #BlackLivesMatters while his stupid followers keep wanking about marching with Dr. King. They sound almost as bad as #tcot with that shit. (“MLK was a Republican!” (lie, but a lot of people believe it, anyway, so what) “Democrats blocked the CRA!” (Dixiecrats, no, that distinction actually does fucking matter)).
Then Kevin Drum went and concerned trolled about BLM’s list of demands, which looked like a pretty articulate and coherent set of goals except for that bog-standard-leftie demand to release all political prisoners (who’s a political prisoner? which ones?). Oh no, it’s not a legislative programme. Hello, this movement is bigger than a legislative programme. First of all, when VRA can be gutted by SCOTUS despite being rubber stamped by the legislature, I think you need to think bigger than legislation. Also, a lot of work is being done on media representation which, hello first amendment, is not a governmental matter! #BLM is a grassroots issue-based organization, not a lobbying group although they lobby or a group that sues people although I’m sure they work with lawyers. Drum, get real, this is not the first community-based organizing you’ve ever seen in your life.
179.
different-church-lady
@mtiffany: There’s a lot of individual things I’d like to say in agreement and amplification, but it would take a lot of time to organize them coherently, so for the moment I’ll only say amen to all of that.
180.
mtiffany
@aimai: Thanks. You should see how that works in person. And I’m sure I screwed it up. There was a part about dignity and respect that I skipped over. Can’t remember how that fit it.
I need pie.
181.
mtiffany
@different-church-lady: I don’t know how to ask this without sounding like an asshole, but again, please extend me the benefit of the doubt, again.
If you were angry about O’Malley and Sanders being silenced, do you undestand now how the BLM community feels like they’re being silenced?
Do you get what they’re angry about?
And most importantly, does it help persuade you to their side?
All the pretty language in the world ain’t worth the wind it disappears into if you haven’t changed someone’s mind…
182.
Another Holocene Human
@guachi: That’s nice and all but if GA and NC turn blue, it won’t be because of changes in white voting patterns.
FL is blue because of the increase in Black and brown voter participation.
Where does it come down to the white vote? Places like MA, OR, WA, MN, VT….
NV was won by Hispanics. AZ will be too. NM will come down to the Hispanic vote.
This is highly regional.
At any rate, if Jews and the GLBT community can advocate for their interests within the Democratic party–by no means a forgone conclusion–then by gum so can the African American community. Blacks are a much bigger percentage of all Dem voters than the previous two groups, probably combined.*
*-only counting queer people who identify that way, closet cases probably vote GOP anyway if previous election patterns are anything to go by
eta: @guachi: Oh well, nm, my bad for responding to you
This was only a couple of hours after the Black Lives Matter protest, and he already realized that he had to address it directly. So I do think the dude is getting with the program. I wish the liberal circular firing squad could hold their fire rather than talk about how much he just epically sucks.
I wish Sanders’ ostensible supporters could stop catastrophizing (we just lost the election!) and also stop going after Black people on twitter with condescending bullshit that makes all white liberals and progressives and lefties look bad.
Yeah, I think Sanders IS smarter than his stupid supporters. That much is clear.
First off, I should say my initial comment was more in the spirit of amplifying yours than debating it — a misunderstanding I seem to create far too often.
If you were angry about O’Malley and Sanders being silenced…
Speaking personally, I’m not angry about it at all. Neither one of those cats needs my sympathy. I was only trying to make a point about tactics and effectiveness.
…do you undestand now how the BLM community feels like they’re being silenced?
It would be impossible for me to genuinely understand it, because I will never have to walk in those shoes. It’s the well worn difference between sympathy and empathy. It would be obscenely presumptive of me to say I know how you feel. I can only imagine what it would be like. The most I can do is use those imaginings to attempt to help.
Do you get what they’re angry about?
Yes. The anger needs no justification. It ought to be self-evident.
And most importantly, does it help persuade you to their side?
I was already on “their side”. The only “side” that’s worth being on is the one that stops blacks from getting killed and harassed. That being said, I might have different opinions in regards to how that’s going to get accomplished. And I think the fact that this event has defined the two “sides” in the way it has is entirely counter-productive.
@AxelFoley: I guess he walked it back because the first article that came up when I searched for that phrase was an article from yesterday about Sanders talking about structural racism, which would kind of be the opposite statement.
I think Bernie got the message. Wish his dudebro supporters would.
188.
Another Holocene Human
@Suzanne: I keep seeing whites accusing Blacks of threatening to sit the election out. I yet to see a single Black person say “I’m a liberal but I’m going to sit this election out.” This is a primary, don’t we all get a chance to kick the tires on every candidate?
I have seen, already, white people threatening to not vote or vote GOP in response to the twitter war, so being easily offended and taking your ball and going home seems to be a white thang.
DETROIT – A small group of protesters interrupted Vice President Joe Biden’s speech at Netroots Nation, vocalizing their dissatisfaction with the Democratic administration’s policy of deporting undocumented immigrants.
“Stop deporting our families! Stop deporting our families!” chanted a half a dozen demonstrators about 20 minutes into Biden’s remarks before the liberal conference Thursday afternoon.
“You said you’d protect the American dream! Stop deporting our families!” yelled one man, before he and his accomplices were removed by Secret Service agents.
Was this a big issue to you at the time? Because it sure seems like Bernie Sanders is your target.
190.
Another Holocene Human
@dogwood: My back of the envelope is that I know 12% of total electorate is Black, approx 80% is white, if 50% of white voters are male and 60% of white voters voted GOP, that means 18% of electorate is a white male who voted democratic. This is a big over-estimate, though, I think more than 60% of white males voted GOP and I know men are less than half of population, not sure what % of voters they are but females are over-favored among older pop tranches more likely to vote. So we’re talking about two roughly equal groups in size, not a vast group vs. a small interest group.
I keep seeing whites accusing Blacks of threatening to sit the election out. I yet to see a single Black person say “I’m a liberal but I’m going to sit this election out.”
If Hillary had pulled the same shit Sanders did at NN, the vaunted blogosphere would be tearing her to bits. Oh, but Sanders is the Messiah so he gets a free pass.
“Hilary is aloof” “Hilary wants to be coronated” “Hilary is out of touch”
Sooooo true. Not shilling for Hilary here but some of Sanders’ proponents are talking about a guru or a god, not a man.
Total Black D voters: 12%
Est. (60% vote GOP, sexes equal) white male D voters: 14%
And the limbo goes down, down.
198.
mtiffany
@different-church-lady: But then again, how organized is your protest movement if you have no game plan on how to win over hearts and minds? That’s the whole point of protesting is to win over enough support to get the change you desire.
“We’ve disrupted you to enrage you, we’ve enraged you to engage you, and now that we have your attention… DERP.”
199.
Another Holocene Human
@Kay: I’m not David, but why shouldn’t they come after a Obama administration official when he has ramped up deportations?
200.
Another Holocene Human
@mtiffany: ??? Isn’t she talking about the decisions candidates make on the campaign trail?
This isn’t some Ed Show shit unless I missed something.
201.
Another Holocene Human
@mtiffany: Wait, so she deleted it? That tweet is ambiguous to me, I have your interpretation, well, I also have mine. Everything she hasn’t deleted makes perfect sense so are you sure that’s what she’s trying to put out there?
202.
mtiffany
@Another Holocene Human: Sorry, wrong link. Right link is… in this comment Ta-da, here… the missing stuff is my deletions. I burned my Twitter. Done with it. The whole convo was about BLM and Sanders.
203.
Another Holocene Human
I’m following Elon James White’s twitter feed. I think he really explains it better than anyone else. And he’s echoing you a bit here, mtiffany:
@mtiffany: Isn’t she kind of saying advocating for a cause and advocating for a candidate are the same kind of work but a candidate has to win an election?
Isn’t the heart of this dispute about being responsive to the issues of the Black community when you’re asking for its vote? Isn’t that fair?
Would we vote for an anti-GLBT candidate running under the Dem ticket? I know I’d have a problem with that. Now if they won the primary and it was a red state and the other guy was worse, huh. But this is early in a primary, this is time for candidates to define themselves.
205.
Sly
@aimai: I don’t think anyone’s accusing Sander’s of having “really effed up” racist beliefs. The criticism of Sanders himself extends only so far as his campaign strategy; he is trying to gain national attention and support on a policy platform he has relied upon to achieve and maintain elected office in Vermont. Obviously, by circumstance, reaffirming and defending the fundamental Americaness of black people in the United States is not going to be central to this strategy. And for people to whom that question is a question of literal life and death, that’s a real problem.
They aren’t the enemy.
A person can be more than either an enemy or an ally, though. To believe otherwise is to adopt the same kind of thinking that compels a person to believe that so long as they aren’t burning crosses or wrapping barbed wire around Emmett Till’s neck, they are immune to the corrupting effects of white supremacy. Many in the white left, for whom “it’s not really about race, its about class,” are neither enemies nor are they allies. They are effectively non-combatants, who, in many cases, have been terrorized by the prospect of being shunned by their white family, friends, and neighbors into silence, and comfort themselves by simply saying that they are an ally but never actually doing anything about it. An ally – and I have problems with this word for this exact point of confusion – is not a state of being; it is a choice that leads to action.
206.
Betty Cracker
@David Koch: I don’t think you’re a bad guy (that would be your Internet handle namesake ), but I do think you’re being counter-productive as hell and mirroring the very behavior you’re complaining about from the mean Sanders people on Twitter.
Elon James White
@elonjames Elon James White retweeted Lina Blackburne
Lina Blackburne @LinaBlackburne
@elonjames As a WOC, can’t say I want a Repub pres, but I want to be ignored and taken for granted even less. #EarnThisDamnVoteOrLose
Elon James White added,
That’s where I’m at. My vote can’t be expected and I won’t be shamed into falling in line when my people are dying.
Is he wrong to feel this way?
208.
mtiffany
@Another Holocene Human: But as you look through the feed, where’s the attempt to engage and persuade? It seems like a whole bunch of, “if you don’t understand why we’re angry, I’m not explaining it to you and that’s why you’re part of the problem.”
A person can be more than either an enemy or an ally, though. To believe otherwise is to adopt the same kind of thinking that compels a person to believe that so long as they aren’t burning crosses or wrapping barbed wire around Emmett Till’s neck, they are immune to the corrupting effects of white supremacy.
That’s where I’m at. My vote can’t be expected and I won’t be shamed into falling in line when my people are dying.
Is he wrong to feel this way?
He’s absolutely NOT wrong to feel that. Not at all. As a matter of fact, in ’91, that was me. But where’s the egagement? Where’s the persuasion? Where’s the putting aside your anger (as legit and real and raw and well-deserved as it is) long enough to reach out to the people that are making you angry (who you are angering as well, btw) and helping them understand and winning them over?
He could very well be doing that in the real world, and probably is. But Twitter? 140 characters? Not easy if it is possible.
At the intersection of BLM and the O’Malley and Sanders incidents, Twitter seems like nothing more than a churning sea of toxic anger on both sides (“Both sides do it! Catch me on Morning Ho next Monday to plug my new book — it’s dogshit sandwiched between two paper plates, co-written by Mark Halperin”).
211.
Another Holocene Human
@mtiffany: You can click on hashtags and see everything that was said about it. #SayHerName has been applied to Bland in the last week or so. It started as a hashtag raising awareness about the fact that Black women suffer almost as frequently as Black men at the hands of police but there has been no discussion of this even in activist circles. There was a trans woman of color killed by police in the DC area (or maybe closer to Balto but I think it was federal law enforcement not municipal) several months ago and the cops were “cleared” of any wrongdoing. (Mya Hall)
#EarnOurVoteOrLose was started by Elon as far as I can tell. He was pissed because Sanders cancelled on all of the groups he was supposed to meet with after his speech. If you go back a couple of days he has had the worst ridiculous people in his mentions and coming right at him over his lack of Sanders love because apparently if you criticize Sanders just a little bit you’re guilty of double plus un-good think and need to be re-educated. (And now he has RW trolls responding to his posts as well, although it’s probably just Tuesday.) The hashtag expresses frustration that Dem candidates feel they don’t even have to try to court the African American vote because they’ll get it by default. He’s saying, oh no you don’t. People did ask him today how he felt about Sanders’ response yesterday so you can see what he said about it on the first page of his twitter page. Elon has been very clear.
“All Lives Matter” is a classic derail. http://www.derailingfordummies.com/
Instead of talking about the fact that US law enforcement and the criminal justice system treat Black lives as if they DO NOT MATTER, hence the chant, let’s attempt to sidestep the discussion about systemic and structural racism and take it somewhere more comfortable for the privileged interlocutor. “Yeah, let’s do something about police brutality.” Study police brutality in the US for more than 2 seconds and you will see there is a social contract between TPTB and white America, your civil liberties are toilet paper but don’t worry, we’ll only wipe our ass with them in THOSE PEOPLE’s neighborhoods or when THOSE PEOPLE INVADE your neighb. So this shit is never going to stop unless we confront the race issue as well.
212.
Another Holocene Human
@mtiffany: You know Elon has an hour-long internet radio show, right?
213.
msdc
@Another Holocene Human: Your numbers are still a little high (the white male vote was roughly 36-37% Obama), but I’m not sure I follow your point here. The total white male vote for Obama is almost exactly equal to the total black vote for Obama. The total white vote for Obama (men and women) is more than twice as high – in fact, it is equal to the total non-white vote for all candidates.
So any claims that black voters or any other minority voters “don’t need us”? That’s arrogant, self-defeating bullshit. The Democratic party is a coalition of interests that depends on all its partners. Racial purity politics is for the other guys.
I’m following Elon James White’s twitter feed. I think he really explains it better than anyone else. And he’s echoing you a bit here, mtiffany:
Full disclosure. I was on Twitter on Sunday, and I thought Elon was being an ass to someone without reason, so I got snarky with Elon, and then Elon handed me my ass (rightfully so) and then (in my precious white opinion, with my precious white feelings) Elon took it a step too far. So to hear someone say that Elon is ‘echoing’ me, wow, that’s some weapons-grade irony.
How does a candidate even hope to win ‘votes in the middle’ in the general when there’s a media machine that can and will deliberately spin #BlackLivesMatter into “Only Black Lives Matter.” Let’s not be so naive as to think the minute a Dem candidate embraces the BLM movement, that Fox isn’t going to spin that shit as “The blahs are coming for whitey.” And the second Fox does it, well, if you don’t know what a puke funnel is, have I got a lexicon entry for you https://balloon-juice.com/balloon-juice-lexicon-i-p/#P. Any Dem that says “Black Lives Matter” without also saying “White Lives Matter” and “All lives matter” is going to get smeared like a toilet bowl after a binge at Taco Bell.
I know it’s not a tantrum or trivial, but neither are the consequences of the election.
“Earn his vote?”
Earn my vote too. But I can’t expect a candidate to be so ideologically pure to my positon that they’re unable to win over anyone else.
And I can’t demand utter and complete compliance to my immediate demands if the real consequences of meeting those demands makes attainment of my long-term goal impossible.
They are effectively non-combatants, who, in many cases, have been terrorized by the prospect of being shunned by their white family, friends, and neighbors into silence, and comfort themselves by simply saying that they are an ally but never actually doing anything about it.
Sincere question – do you think being shamed into silence by total strangers, or shouted down, or otherwise told their opinion doesn’t matter, is going to change that decision?
I agree with you that “ally” is problematic for the way that it’s become wrapped up with some kind of mental/moral state – a gold star for the socially conscious requiring no further action. But I have to wonder what kind of action the protests this weekend, and the subsequent internet/social media flare up, are supposed to produce.
219.
Another Holocene Human
@msdc: Like Axel said, we need each other. But it’s high time that Dem national candidates didn’t take the Black vote for granted. I’m sorry, but that’s a huge block of the Dem vote. If GLBT and Jewish concerns can be taken seriously, they damn well better be taking African American concerns seriously. I can’t stand the fact that some white people who inevitably seem to have taken a few classes or read a few books about economics or social* theory think they can tell Black people what their concerns SHOULD be. Hello, white privilege means that you are not experiencing the America that they experience.
*from POV of economics
It’s as stupid as gay people or straight people for that matter telling trans people what they should be thinking or feeling or how they should transition or what they ought to do to be acceptable to police and employers and family members and partners. Hello, you’ve never walked in those shoes. You need to listen when someone is telling you about something you don’t know because just because you think society OUGHT to work that way or human biology is SUPPOSED to work that way, that’s not how it actually plays out, okay?
220.
Another Holocene Human
@msdc: Sincere soul searching?
A change in rhetoric?
Some new people educating themselves about Black people killed by law enforcement?
New people signing up to fight City Hall in their own town?
I’ve seen the first 3, hopefully #4 is happening as well.
221.
Another Holocene Human
I know the uber lefty activists in my town are very tuned in to what is being said nationally, to the point I get frustrated with them for not paying enough attention to what is going on around them. They were so pissed about ACA it took them a year of farting around doing ineffective activism to refocus on Medicaid expansion, for example. If it’s hot and being screamed about they jump on board and when they want to do shit, they get shit done. I know my town is not unique.
@mtiffany: So let’s have a conversation about this. Fox news viewers are pretty much lost already. Dem candidates have been offering a number of specific policy points to try to address #BLM’s concerns. So far as I know these suggestions have been completely uncontroversial. Yeah, the police unions oppose cameras, and virtually nobody else. Prison sentencing reform? Widely popular. Something something retrain police? Not a lot of opponents to that. #BLM’s specific set of goals includes some controversial stuff but what the politicians have been proposing–give them some credit here–would be substantive changes if accomplished but is not going to bring down the liberal edifice. I think it’s stuff almost every Dem voter supports anyway, and quite a few R’s and I’s as well. Using the DOJ to investigate suspicious deaths in custody? Only sworn racists and police officers seem to have a problem with that.
I have yet to see a purity test being thrown out there by anyone prominent or with any sort of support (it’s not like I read all the twitters and I’m sure there are some 20 yo college student activists with demands). I think a lot of the emotion has to do with not even pretending to address these concerns like they matter. It’s like “I didn’t expect much of you and you didn’t even clear my low expectations.” It’s disappointing.
Sincere question – do you think being shamed into silence by total strangers, or shouted down, or otherwise told their opinion doesn’t matter, is going to change that decision?
Sincere answer from someone you didn’t ask, pardon the intrusion.
The point of interrupting and silencing others is because black people have been getting killed in this country since, forever, and there has been no action taken to change it. Complete silence. You’re being silenced? The people you want to or care to hear from are being silenced? Black people are being silenced. They want you to experience what they’re experiencing.
And what did the other contributors on this thread have to say to get him to that point? Because it wasn’t the kind of abjection and self-abasement that you’re flogging here.
Sets the exchange up to be adversarial from the get-go. It’s starting from the position that Candidate X inherently does not give a shit. Not a problem if the candidate actually does not give a shit. A big problem if the candidate does give a shit but needs some… “coaching”, shall we say.
ETA: kinda half-redacted after seeing your comment at 211
227.
Another Holocene Human
@msdc: I’m white. Pretty sure AxelFoley is not. What exactly are you trying to say?
Should be humble, we white people have fucked up a hell of a lot and we have a mouth that doesn’t seem to know it.
228.
Another Holocene Human
@different-church-lady: Sanders canceled meetings without explanation. Thaaaat’s kind of douchey.
I know how I’d feel if a D candidate dipped out on meetings with GLBT activists without explanation, or if a D candidate snubbed the Florida delegation with no explanation or obvious context. (You know, like that year when Florida invalidated its own primary vote.)
229.
Another Holocene Human
Black Lives Matter! started on the road where Michael Brown was pursued and shot and his body was left in the sun like roadkill.
How quickly we forget.
230.
msdc
@mtiffany: I understand that – that’s been the standard response to this question. What I don’t understand is how that tactic plays out in practical terms.
“We’re tired of being silenced, so we’re going to silence you, so you’re going to experience what we’re experiencing, so you’ll feel the contempt we feel for the people who silence us, and then — oh.”
Throwing that contempt back at someone else might provide a short-term high – and god knows no audience will soak it up and ask for more like progressives – but I’m wondering how it plays outside the very small circles of the progressive internet. Most of the racial discourse in this country, from all sides, seems to be geared to enforce white silence. I don’t see how the “SHUT UP AND LISTEN!” platitudes of the left change that dynamic.
goddamnedfrank
@goddamnedfrank
Fellow white liberal type American life forms. Do you want other people talking down to YOU about YOUR vote? No? Then don’t do it to others.
232.
Another Holocene Human
Most of the racial discourse in this country, from all sides, seems to be geared to enforce white silence.
WTF? Unpack this please.
233.
Tripod
I have some sympathy for Heston (And even Reagan), in hindsight, it’s pretty clear their brains were slowly turning to calcium long before anyone knew what the fuck Alzheimer’s was. This isn’t the case with Sanders, but it’s also pretty clear his political world view was set before I was born, or my parents even voted. I don’t truck with the return to the New Frontier, because I don’t find it politically, socially or economically relevant. Electorally, that first among equals leftism was left for dead in 1972, and that’s that.
This is not about the Supreme Court. It’s about who carries the southern states on Super Tuesday. Pretty much game, set and match for Hillary, unless she gets hit by a meteor or something….
Where’s the putting aside your anger (as legit and real and raw and well-deserved as it is) long enough to reach out to the people that are making you angry (who you are angering as well, btw) and helping them understand and winning them over?
The crazy thing here is that we all ought to be angry about the same things, and instead we’re all angry at each other, and how the fuck did that happen?
235.
msdc
@Another Holocene Human: Thank you for providing a perfect example of the abjection and self-abasement that I’m talking about.
I’m pretty sure that some if not all of the commenters who called him on his bluster are white, too. They also happened to be correct.
@Another Holocene Human: And thank you also for reminding us that Michael Brown was killed. There might still be one or two people in America who do not know this, and if they happen to be reading this thread they are probably very confused right now.
236.
Another Holocene Human
Granted this guy does engage in nutpicking–mostly of Republicans!–but some of the stuff he’s responding to on twitter is … well … read it for yourself.
Yes, Virginia, we do have a white privileged prog problem.
237.
Another Holocene Human
@msdc: Humility is not self-abasement. It means being willing to listen and not assuming you have all the answers from the get-go. It means I have enough self-confidence to endure being wrong or accept being educated sometimes.
Many in the white left, for whom “it’s not really about race, its about class,” are neither enemies nor are they allies. They are effectively non-combatants, who, in many cases, have been terrorized by the prospect of being shunned by their white family, friends, and neighbors into silence, and comfort themselves by simply saying that they are an ally but never actually doing anything about it.
I would extend this far beyond the white left, actually. Most of the racial discourse in this country encourages white silence on matters of race, whether it’s mushy centrist “color blindness” or leftist abjection and shame. Only on the right do you see whites incentivized to engage the issue of race, and of course they’re rewarded for doing it in the worst ways and towards the worst possible ends.
That’s not to imply our racial discourse is only about white silence – it’s about a lot else and I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. But nearly every position in that discourse stakes out a starting position of white silence (or else unabashed racism) and I’m not seeing how the current BLM tactics, or the dogma of the left more generally, is supposed to change that.
Sanders canceled meetings without explanation. Thaaaat’s kind of douchey.
After the protesters shut him down. After. Would you meet with a group of people that heckled and shut you down? I would have cancelled too.
240.
Another Holocene Human
I used to think if I could get the white lefties in the same room with the Black liberals we could really accomplish great things in my town.
Now I realize that unless it’s those few white lefties voluntarily joining Black-led organizations, that is not going to fucking happen because the majority of white lefties are not fucking interested in widening their coalition. That would mean putting down the holier than thou sceptre for a day.
We have more solidarity among the church communities working on progressive issues.
Now I realize that unless it’s those few white lefties voluntarily joining Black-led organizations, that is not going to fucking happen because the majority of white lefties are not fucking interested in widening their coalition.
Is that the lesson you took from this thread?
You’ve spent more time defending Axel’s contemptuous renunciation of coalition politics than Axel did. That’s not “being willing to listen.” That’s not humility. And it’s sure as hell not widening the coalition.
PS. It’s not lost on me that at this point the thread has degenerated into a bunch of white progressives yelling at each other about race. If you want the title of Least Racist White Dude, by all means take it. That and four bucks, etc.
243.
Another Holocene Human
@msdc: Is the Southern Poverty Law Center silent? What about Bill de Blasio? White people still benefit from white privilege every day. They’ve also been conditioned to discount Black and brown voices. It’s as ridiculous as bringing in male clerics to talk about women’s reproductive rights and access to healthcare. You have uninformed white people making stupid statements all the time and then getting their feelings hurt when Black people correct them. “How dare they, I’ve done so much for them.” Hm, shades of Atticus Finch? There’s plenty of room for whites to address other whites on these issues and to use their positions of power in society to make changes but so often they’re not afraid of BLACK people, they’re afraid of WHITE people in their communities, in their families. What if I get voted out of office, how will I explain this back at the Chamber of Commerce or the golf club, or Fuck it, I don’t owe them anything. Whites when polled consistently state that they think all the other white people are more racist than they are.
It’s not that white people aren’t allowed to say things, it’s that they say the wrong thing 90% of the time due to not doing their homework or worrying more about their own feelings than the 12% of the US population they just roped into whatever their stupid statement was.
I am from Boston. It is possible for a bunch of white people to have discussions about structural racism issues and how to resolve them without being “silenced”. It probably helped that we started with a baseline of, you know, facts and did not ignore, what is that, context. And when we were doing community based things we involved, who is that, community stakeholders. Not deciding in some planning office what ought to be good for that neighborhood and getting butthurt when the nabe is insulted. Which I have seen right here in the South. Talking about real things that are real is a big problem, as is that whole democracy thing.
244.
Another Holocene Human
@msdc: No, I was reading twitter feeds, thanks for asking.
eta: I gave you multiple chances to explain yourself. Not sure why you’re flaming out now
I would also note that Tia Oso was a high school classmate of mine, and that we wrote on our school newspaper staff together, and she is very much focused on social justice for all people, not merely herself. And she is brilliant.
But as you look through the feed, where’s the attempt to engage and persuade?
Elon said on the Huffpolive interview that he had a private meeting scheduled with Sanders and his people. Bernie blew it off when he decided to take his ball and go home. So if anyone is guilty of not engaging, it ain’t Elon.
248.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@mtiffany: Sanders cancelled a private meeting/interview with Elon James White who is a supporter of BLM but had nothing to do with the protest.
I don’t see how the “SHUT UP AND LISTEN!” platitudes of the left change that dynamic.
I’m drawing a parallel with the ACT UP movement of the 80s/90s. #BlackLivesMatter == (SILENCE = DEATH). The strategy was: disrupt, enrage, engage.
After you’ve enraged people with your protest, engage them: Comment above
It’s not about race as much as the turn out. If the African American community sits out the race because they have no one they feel comfortable with, then it’s 2014 all over again. The least important thing in both the general and primaries is whatever rainbow ponies each candidate promises. Neither one of them is going to be able to do squat without taking the Senate back. You are right about the Bernie supporters who don’t want to hear this. He can’t carry the Senate. He doesn’t have the money to fight all the voter ID laws and gerrymandering crap in every state and there is no advantage to having him show up at your rally if he’s going to dis your constituents. I’m convinced that half the BS trolls online are the same GOP plants that attacked H in 2008. They don’t want Hillary to get the nomination obviously. H will carry most of the states where the bulk of BS voter live in the general anyway. But the GOP really wants OBA staying home on election day so they can retain the Senate. This will be a HUGE issue in carrying Ohio. If you don’t have good turn out from the AA community in Cuyahoga county then Whoever/Kasich takes Ohio. The GOP can’t win without Ohio. But even that won’t matter to them much if they get to hold the Senate.
254.
msdc
Hi, mtiffany: I’ve been following your comments on this for a couple of days now, though we haven’t spoken directly about it before. I have to say, I don’t see how disruption and especially rage lead to engagement; they’re more likely to produce the opposite in my experience, as people fall back behind battle lines or drop out of the discussion entirely. Nor do I see a whole lot of engagement in the days that have followed Netroots Nation – or rather, what little engagement there is has been drowned in a sea of attempts to dictate who can speak and how they can speak. We’ve got the enraging part down, though.
I think we fundamentally disagree about the productive value of anger, or at least the performance of anger, as a political tool.
This line from your comment above kind of sums up what I find troubling about it.
We need you to scream about it, we need you to get angry about, and we need you to get your friends and your family angry about.
There is a common sentiment that crops up in progressive politics that people just need to get angry enough – “If you’re not angry you haven’t been paying attention” and all that. But the performance of anger rarely brings about the desired change: if anything it’s psychologically calibrated to get people to shut down and recoil instead of thinking about its cause. “Getting your friends and family angry about it” is just as likely to get them angry at you. To be honest, I feel like such efforts are more about serving the needs of the individual – whether it’s bolstering their self-image or just transferring their anger onto somebody else – than they are about advancing the nominal causes.
You see the parallels to ACT UP, and there’s some validity to that; but I see the parallels to Code Pink, and there’s some validity to that too.
255.
Tyren M
@Brachiator: You are sadly mistaken. Black voters are not the “sit this one out” crew. Too many died for us to do that. Black voters are the D’s most reliable Block. Look it up. Al Franken and Mark Dayton won by barely 300 votes. Where do you think that came from? See who put Terry McAuliffe in office on a down D year. Black women voters. Mitt Romney won 60%+ of White votes. NEXT.
You see the parallels to ACT UP, and there’s some validity to that; but I see the parallels to Code Pink, and there’s some validity to that too.
I see parallels to Code Pink too. But the question isn’t “which parallel is more valid?” The question is: do you want to see change? Do you want to see #BlackLivesMatter? Yes? Great. Don’t want to get angry about it? Fine too. Don’t feel like roping in your friends and family? Fine. Then act. On your own. Act. What I said about contact every elected official that represents you? Do it. Any change they can implement that you think will decrease the violence towards black people and save black lives? Tell them. Demand they do it. If you think demilitarizing the police will help save black lives? Tell them. Demand they demilitatize the police. If you think community-based policing and civilian oversight boards for the police will save black lives? Tell them. Demand they institute community-based policing and civilian oversight boards. Hell, if you think erecting a statue to Kent “I for one, welcome our new insect overlords” Brockman in the town square will help save black lives, then please by all means, tell them and demand they erect that statue.
But when you write, or call, or email, let them know, first thing, FIRST GODDAMNED THING, is that you are contacting them because Black Lives Matter. And that you are holding them accountable for making the changes necessary so that our society is safe for black people.
And just to note: you said you’ve been following my comments for a couple of days. If you can follow my lame, whitesplaining ass on in the comment threads of this two-bit dog and kitty show (Proof of life Cole! Proof of life!) for two motherfucking days, you have time to contact ALL your elected officials.
And no, I don’t expect that the moment you hit SEND to Congressman McGriftyshite, or Mayor McCheezit, or Police Commissioner Velma Butterspoons, that clouds will part, and the sun will beam down, and the heavenly choir will sing and the killings and false arrests and microaggressions and the racism will stop right then. But if you make your voice heard, you will make a difference. The more support that issue has, and the more voters let it be known that they demand it from our society, the easier and politcally safer it becomes for sympathetic public officials to ally themselves with the cause. You will have done something.
And if you read this and think “fuck that, this faggot doesn’t know what he’s talking about,” that’s your right to think it. And if you don’t want to do anything about black people dying when the least you can do is spend time communicating to your public servants rather than reading this blog, welll man, that’s on you. Nothing I can do to make you do it. But I’m not going to let you off the hook, because now that you know what’s going on and that what you can do to help stop it requires so little of you, well then my friend, their deaths are the price of your silence, and that is on you.
But take heart, recall how you said that you don’t think these tactics work? If they didn’t work, would you have read this far, or invested this much time? See. I told you this stuff worked and it does. You’re here. So trust me on this, not being silent works too.
Speak up for them. Now.
Black Lives Matter
And if you read this and think “fuck that, this faggot doesn’t know what he’s talking about,” that’s your right to think it. And if you don’t want to do anything about black people dying when the least you can do is spend time communicating to your public servants rather than reading this blog, welll man, that’s on you. Nothing I can do to make you do it. But I’m not going to let you off the hook, because now that you know what’s going on and that what you can do to help stop it requires so little of you, well then my friend, their deaths are the price of your silence, and that is on you.
Actually, this nicely clarifies what I was talking about. The assumption that anyone who doesn’t agree with us – or does agree with us but doesn’t want to follow the exact course of action we prescribe – must be insufficiently angry, or insufficiently compassionate, or insufficiently informed about the problem until we graciously enlighten them, does not help progressives and it does not help progressive causes. Not one bit.
And it makes for a curious form of “engagement.” Seriously – you find out that I’ve been reading your comments and thinking about them, and your response is to try and chastise me for it?
Think about the incentives that sets up for me and anyone else who’s read this far.
And it makes for a curious form of “engagement.” Seriously – you find out that I’ve been reading your comments and thinking about them, and your response is to try and chastise me for it?
Think about the incentives that sets up for me and anyone else who’s read this far.
So your feelings about my tactics are more important than other people lives? And if you’re just trolling me, that’s fine too. The longer you engage with me the more likely it is that I’ll get through to you. I’ll plant some seed somewhere in that headof yours and it will nag at you as it grows. If someone other than you reads this and my words get through to them, and they take action, so much the better, mission accomplished. I’ve done what I set out to do.
And hell, if you’re not trolling then maybe continuing to engage you on the issue you might think of a better idea and we can put that idea to use. Or someone else reading might come up with a better idea. Again. Win.
But let me ask you point blank: what’s your idea? What do you think I should be doing? I’m all ears
260.
mtiffany
Okay. Off to have some pie. Thanks, ladies and gentlemen, I’ll be here all week. Try the veal!
261.
Kropadope
@mtiffany: No one is saying that your tactics are more important than people’s lives. That sort of assertion explains the disagreement at a fundamental level. None of us are saying that black lives don’t matter, indeed we want to make progress for racial justice. That our disagreement on tactics is being used by some on the BLM side to paint us as not sympathetic or condescending or perhaps even outright racist is not being fair.
No one is saying that your tactics are more important than people’s lives.
That’s good, because that’s not what I said. My question was:
So your feelings about my tactics are more important than other people lives?
Big difference… glad I could clear up that typo… moving on…
That sort of assertion explains the disagreement at a fundamental level. None of us are saying that black lives don’t matter, indeed we want to make progress for racial justice.
Fantastic. Now what have you done about it? If you’ve been following along, then you should know what I’m going to say next, take action. Do something. As my Aunt Sukie used to say “Pretty words ain’t worth the wind they disappear into if nothing come from ’em after they been spoke.”
That our disagreement on tactics is being used by some on the BLM side to paint us as not sympathetic or condescending or perhaps even outright racist is not being fair.
Holy shit are you are right about that. On Twitter on Sunday I was subjected to a metric fuck-ton of unfair assumptions and name calling. Whitesplainer, whitesplaining, paternalism, “ally is a verb,” “sorry I didn’t know that the white man was talking,” ‘supposed allie,’ “I wasn’t talking about you when I was calling out racists, but if you’re offended, that’s your conscience calling you out, not me,” and my favorite “are you proud that you’re a racist?” It’s my favorite because whether you answer yes or no, you’re a racist! Ha-ha. Soooo clever.
But as you said “some on the BLM side…“, that’s some, not all, and by no means the majority. Don’t let the trifling, self-important, ain’t-shit-assholes dissuade you from reaching out and connecting and co-operating with the those in the BLM movement who are patient, who are willing to answer your questions and who want more people on board. And that is, I am confident in hypothesizing, the majority of the BLM movement (I don’t have hard statistics from a poll, I’m just operating on my own experience that people that are advocating for a cause usually want more supporters rather than fewer and also want more public support and not less and are therefore, not complete assholes). Are they mad? Yeah? Are they angry? Yeah They have a lot to be angry about: black people are being killed with impunity by the very people who are supposed to protect and serve EVERYONE equally. I’d be mad too, how about you?
But as I have said (how many times now?): that your feelings are hurt or you think you are being treated unfairly is irrelevant. Want to be feel good about yourself and prove that haters wrong? Then do something worth feeling good about and take action to advance the BLM cause if you agree with it. Feelings follow actions. And the only actions I can think of are: contact all the elected officals that represent you and tell them first off Black Lives Matter and then tell them what changes you want to see to make our society safe for black people. Believe that police demilitarization will help. Demand it. Think that a jobs program to repair crumbling infrastrcuture targeted to those communities with the highest black unemployment will help? Demand that. Whatever ideas that you think will advance #BLackLivesMatter that your elected officials can implement is an idea they need to hear. Demand it from them.
And I’m repeating myself again, (but who cares at this point? I have pie and scotch.) The more people who publicly come out in support of BLM the easier it will be for public officials to ally and support that movement without fear of a Fox ‘News’ type ratfucking or the backlash from regressive cousin-fucking racists.
Don’t know what ground is left to cover here. HTH
264.
mtiffany
@mtiffany: Oh shit, too much scotch, not enough pie. I left out part of a sentence. Before some nitpicking troll rolls along and accuses me of — quelle horreur — hypocrisy in addition to my poor spelling and grammar (oh noes! all the bad english writing sins!)
But as I have said (how many times now?): that your feelings are hurt or you think you are being treated unfairly is irrelevant.
But as I have said (how many times now?): when compared to the violence and mayhem visited on black people in this country on a near daily basis, that your feelings are hurt or you think you are being treated unfairly is irrelevant.
Don’t let the trifling, self-important, ain’t-shit-assholes cacti and Omnes dissuade you from reaching out and connecting and co-operating with the those in the BLM movement who are patient, who are willing to answer your questions and who want more people on board.
You’re right, but it’s hard sometimes.
But as I have said (how many times now?): that your feelings are hurt or you think you are being treated unfairly is irrelevant. Want to be feel good about yourself and prove that haters wrong? Then do something worth feeling good about and take action to advance the BLM cause if you agree with it. Feelings follow actions. And the only actions I can think of are: contact all the elected officals that represent you and tell them first off Black Lives Matter and then tell them what changes you want to see to make our society safe for black people.
I try my best, talk to fellow voters and such when the issue comes up. I don’t know very well how to help more. To the extent that institutional racism still exists in MA, it’s far more subtle than, for example, Ferguson.
266.
mtiffany
@mtiffany: NB: Too much typing and boozing leads to errors. To wit:
So your feelings about my tactics are more important than other people lives?
Wherein any instance of the phrase “my tactics” are found, this phrasing is an error; the correct phrase is “these tactics,” and should be read that way.
Remember kids: drinking and self-righteous commenting don’t mix.
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Lavocat
Because he can’t be attacked as being “too Jewish”, he must be attacked as “too white”.
Well noted.
To steal a line from “True Detective”: we get the world we deserve.
Baud
Hillary wanted a coronation, but you all said nooooooo. Enjoy!
Jim
Trump-Palin 2016. You heard it here first.
JPL
All this time, I thought Sanders was the socialist.
Special thanks goes to Steeplejack for letting me know that I can use the word socialist. .
Gin & Tonic
@JPL: You have to close the tag, though.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Win.
@JPL: Socialist has been okay for quite a while now.
JPL
@Gin & Tonic: It was a minor tic .
Gin & Tonic
@Gin & Tonic: Too slow. Now nobody will understand my comment.
JPL
@Omnes Omnibus: Well, in the olden days, if you typed President Obama, it was flagged for a spelling error, so I guess some things change.
Chris
Screw the Judean People’s Front!
Splitters!
Omnes Omnibus
@JPL: I knew FYWP was a Republican.
Steeplejack
@JPL:
Socialist went off the forbidden list a year or longer ago. You can type it naked.
Lord, I have created a monster. Guess I should find a rock and start interviewing vultures to pick at my guts.
Omnes Omnibus
National Review basically called Sanders a Nazi. (No, I won’t link.)
Gin & Tonic
@Steeplejack: Socialist. I’m wearing just a towel, is that OK?
Mike J
@Steeplejack: I still prefer to type soçialist with the cedilla, just to add some extra frenchiness to piss off wingnuts.
Steeplejack
@Gin & Tonic:
Fine, as long as your no doubt Viagra-engorged penis is not showing.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steeplejack: And the monster is you.
opiejeanne
Thanks for all the support and good wishes. My husband is home, lying on the couch and watching his favorite team. His surgery went well, the doc was very pleased, and so far he hasn’t needed any of the Oxycontin that was prescribed for him.
I am amazed at the way surgery is done these days. His incision is less than 2′ wide, closed up with medical Super Glue.
I have a short list of things to watch for and things to do, all of them easy to take care of or easy to spot. In a couple of weeks he goes back to PT, but the pain in his leg is already relieved so we think the surgery is a success.
Jeffro
@Jim: Walker/Cruz if Jeb! flames out. You heard it here second. Also, God help us all.
Cacti
#BlackLivesMatter
#ButPipeDownTheWhiteMenAreTalking
Steeplejack
@Omnes Omnibus:
I know. I have become the very thing that I feared the most. I looked into the abyss, and while it was looking into me I noticed there were a bunch of italics (and unused commas) there. Also a lot of of‘s torn off the back of couple‘s.
opiejeanne
@Steeplejack: Funny story, today in pre-op the nurse was going over my husband’s meds and asked him if he was currently on Lev-itra.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steeplejack:
The horror….
kped
“i’m going out of my way to get aggravated by people and their opinions, won’t people stop aggravating me with their opinions”
Seriously John, you are courting this drama, stop whining when you get tired of it!
Which is to say, if you keep saying you don’t get it, and you keep asking people to explain it…and then still don’t get it, maybe stop asking and just accept you’ll never understand it. And move on. You are raising your blood pressure over something you personally can’t understand.
Cacti
And the saddest part for Cole is that he can’t blame this on Bill or Hill.
Bernie’s wounds with black people are completely self-inflicted.
John Cole
@Cacti: I’m more amused by the “WHY WON’T HE RESPOND WHILE WE ARE SHOUTING HIM DOWN” than anything else.
And I don’t think this is his fault. I blame his loudmouth asshole supporters who remind me of Paulites. They’re just insufferable and tone deaf and they JUST… DON’T… STOP…
I wouldn’t at all surprised to be mocking a Bernieis46.org site in a half year.
Regardless, anyone who thinks that this general election is going to turn on racial issues is insane. It will be about the economy and national security. In the primaries, this will be an issue. In the general, not so much.
ronin122
Well looks like it’s gonna be a fun primary season on both ends. Dems will circular fire-squad as usual, and the GOP clown car continues to grow into a short yellow clown bus. Now’d be the time to buy stocks in alcoholic beverage companies.
Doug R
I’m thinking the white privilege gets in the way.
Brachiator
@Omnes Omnibus:
Really? Do they know his family background? Do they know what happened to his father’s family? Did National Review recently hire the Gawker editors?
Steve from Antioch
Oh no, Bernie should have stood there and listened to the assholes yell at him and then invite them up on the stage so they could help him work in his self-criticism.
Fucking assholes are going to help get a Republican elected.
Jordan Rules
I just saw an anti Iran deal ad on my TV. All ominous and stuff.
These people are hungry as hell for war. This combined with what Walker said about being ready to act before you take your first shit in the Oval is really giving me the heebie jeebies.
They are nuts and live off scaring the crap out of people.
JC, twitter is the land of memes and doing silly things with pics and gifs. You can damn near predict some of them coming. And I could see this one a mile away. LOL
gian
@kped:
Clicks sell adds. This dustup generates clicks.
The Democratic Party doesn’t really have a base like the GOP. (Old religious white people). It has a coalition of groups with different priorities. Right now one of those groups is highly motivated. A while back there were disruptive activities by Latino activists (the may day marches the dreamers confronting Boehner etc.)
Cacti
@John Cole:
I agree re: his supporters and Paul’s.
But the honest belief that a $15/hour minimum wage is the solution to police brutality on racial minorities is all Bernie.
Omnes Omnibus
@Brachiator: It is a Kevin Williamson piece. What do you expect?
Belafon
And some wonder why extremists have a hard time getting people to listen.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
And they wear Robin Hood hats. Little green Robin Hood hats.
Joel
Where does Tommy Craggs go next? I see him shoveling shit for Breitbart.com sometime in the near future.
Brachiator
@John Cole:
I agree with your sentiment that Sanders is being largely unfairly attacked.
However, it is pointless to make definitive statements about what the general election will be about.
And the attacks on Sanders (and to a lesser degree some of those on Clinton) seem to have an undercurrent of giving black voters a reason to stay home and sit out the election.
Omnes Omnibus
@Brachiator:
I agree.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Brachiator: they hired Jonah Goldberg. Because his mommy rifled through some girl’s underwear drawer.
GregB
Race is going to be an issue when candidate Ben Carson chooses Condi Rice as his running mate.
Moran!
debbie
And this is why the world laughs at America:
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2015/07/20/guarding_recruitment_centers.html
Not included in this article but heard on the local news just now: Fitzpatrick stated that we are in an information war and maybe if “they” see people looking like him guarding the Marines, they’ll think twice.
A guy with a sizable beer belly wearing an Old Navy t-shirt with a flag on it. Yep, they’ll think twice.
ruemara
You’re being a real dick about this. And not learning a damned thing on twitter.
Alex
@Brachiator:
Yes! His family background is the key point in calling Bernie Sanders a Nazi.
“In the Bernieverse, there’s a whole lot of nationalism mixed up in the socialism. He is, in fact, leading a national-socialist movement, which is a queasy and uncomfortable thing to write about a man who is the son of Jewish immigrants from Poland and whose family was murdered in the Holocaust. But there is no other way to characterize his views and his politics.” -Kevin Williamson, cover story for the National Review on July 6th.
Kevin Williamson’s twitter feed right now is basically him saying “But I didn’t say Nazi! How dare you accuse me of calling Bernie Sanders a Nazi!” I have yet to see him explain why he felt queasy calling a Jewish man a national socialist. If it’s a standard political term, then there is no reason to feel queasy. But for some reason he felt off about doing it. Then he did it.
CrustyDem
@John Cole:
To be pedantic, it’s “bernieis45.com”, and it’s available for $9.99.
scav
@debbie: Oh, what is that Austen quote? “For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbours, and laugh at them in our turn?”
kc
Welp, now that Bernie Sanders has been exposed as a literal Nazi white supremacist, to whom should I give my primary vote?
Brachiator
@Alex:
What does this even mean? Nationalism mixed up in the socialism?
And given the WASP anti-semitism of many National Review editors, writers and readers, this kind of nonsense is Trump level self-inflicted wounds.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Brachiator: I think it’s a thoughtful argument that has never before been made with such precision and care.
(actually, I think it’s complete fucking gibberish)
Omnes Omnibus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: He’s now trying to pivot to a suggestion that Sanders favors a nationalistic socialism like that of Hugo Chavez.
Alex
@Brachiator: His argument has two parts-
* Bernie Sanders is a self-described socialist.
* Bernie Sanders is an economic nationalist, maybe due to his alliance with labor unions that think the same thing (general opposition to trade deals, for American manufacturing).
Therefore, national socialist.
Also, they (Bernie, his followers, and/or Western European welfare system) are all really white and might hate minorities.
He also has some standard Williamson digs, such as sneering at Nirvana songs or mocking a grocery store for accepting EBT. Like “Here in a dreary, rundown, hideous little corner of Des Moines dotted with dodgy-looking bars and dilapidated groceries advertising their willingness to accept EBT payments…” -Kevin Williamson
BubbaDave
Fucking black people wanting to talk about “maybe the cops shouldn’t be able to kill us with impunity” and “Presidential candidates should make commitments to fight racism in the criminal justice system” when white folks are trying to talk about important things, amirite?
Redshift
@Alex: Yeah this wingnut literally has nothing other than “his campaign has nationalism and socialism, so that makes him a national socialist!” And he can only make that tortured argument because he apparently thinks populism is the same thing as nationalism.
The entire basis for the piece is so obviously “how can I juggle words around so they add up to Bernie Sanders being a Nazi,” presented with the tone of a toddler proudly showing his parents how he made one in the potty.
Suzanne
I agree that Bernie Sanders has some learning to do on race, and I probably won’t vote for the guy, but I don’t get the liberals here who are basically saying that he’s a worthless candidate because of his views regarding racism being a result of racist economic policy. For that matter, I don’t agree with the other group of liberals who note that Hillz fucked up her Iraq vote (but they seldom mention that she acknowledged that she was wrong) and that makes her a worthless candidate, too.
We can’t die on every hill here.
guachi
Things I didn’t realize until this afternoon when I looked it up and did the math – despite Obama losing by 27 points among white men, more white men voted for Obama than black men and women combined.
lamh36
Hmmm, this is what I learned on twitter today:
Omnes Omnibus
@ruemara: He does this on certain issues.
guachi
@BubbaDave:
Fuck the concerns of white people. They should put your problems first but you can just dismiss issues they might care about. Amirite?
God forbid a white person has an issue he might want you to give a shit about.
Brachiator
@Alex:
Not much of an argument. More like blowing word salad out his ass, and insulting Sanders, logic, and history.
Omnes Omnibus
@guachi: I am beginning to think that you might be a very silly person.
Cacti
@BubbaDave:
Thoroughly disrespectful of them to yammer about how their lives matter when a white man is trying to talk.
Brachiator
@Suzanne:
Sanders was an early member, perhaps an organizer of SNCC. I do not know why he has not played this up in interviews, but it suggests that perhaps people need to do more learning about Sanders than he has to do some learning about race.
Absolutely agree with you here.
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus:
The word idiot comes to mind.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ruckus: That too.
Brachiator
OT. The Republicans just can’t help themselves.
Suzanne
@Brachiator: As I mentioned in the last threads about this, I did not go to Netroots Nation, but I did attend the Sanders rally in Phoenix that was held later that day (in the same venue but in a different meeting hall than NN, so undoubtedly lots of overlap in attendees). Sanders specifically addressed the issue of police brutality against the Black community and said that he would throw the full weight of the law into any investigation of any cop.
This was only a couple of hours after the Black Lives Matter protest, and he already realized that he had to address it directly. So I do think the dude is getting with the program. I wish the liberal circular firing squad could hold their fire rather than talk about how much he just epically sucks.
Omnes Omnibus
@Suzanne: Have you been on the left for very long?
opiejeanne
@debbie: I bet they (the recruiters) feel so much safer.
What a bunch of idiots.
dogwood
@Suzanne:
“We can’t die on every hill here.”
For a few people that’s the goal. Nothing you can do about it.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus: Hah, no shit.
I wonder how much more we would accomplish if we focused on fighting the likely-Trump-voter losers.
Brachiator
@Suzanne:
I saw some of these posts. Good stuff.
Some people are just glad to be unhappy.
dogwood
@Suzanne:
If you hang around politics long enough you find that familiarity breeds contempt.
Tree With Water
@Suzanne: Robert Kennedy admitted to having his eyes opened in a famous sit down with civil rights leaders circa 1966 (MLK was not in attendance). I recall it being said Kennedy was angry-stunned when confronted by the black activists with truths that he didn’t enjoy hearing. To his credit, though, he did listen, and confessed later to having learned… and then he got shot.
sparrow
@gian: Notably, the dreamers confronted someone a) with the ostensible power of doing something and b) currently on the wrong side of the issue.
Linnaeus
@Omnes Omnibus:
Ain’t no basically about it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Linnaeus: He did not use those four letters. N. A. Z. I.
Linnaeus
@Brachiator:
That’s only going to go so far – at some point, it’ll look like he’s just trying to cruise on what he did 40+ years ago.
Linnaeus
@Omnes Omnibus:
I know, but they called him a national socialist multiple times. That’s a distinction without a difference, IMHO.
Omnes Omnibus
@Linnaeus: If you want to say, as some do that he doesn’t give a shit about racial issues, I thing it does matter.
cokane
I see Cacti is explaining everyone else’s moral inferiority. Much wisdom. So paragon.
Linnaeus
@Omnes Omnibus:
But he’s gotta take it further. Otherwise he risks sounding like “I marched with your daddy, whippersnapper, so just be quiet”.
Brachiator
@Tree With Water:
Are you confusing this with an earlier meeting? And obviously, RFK was involved in the civil rights movement indirectly for years as attorney general and adviser to his brother. And his views evolved over time, along with his strong sense of empathy.
In any event, the meeting was in 1963 and did not go over well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin%E2%80%93Kennedy_meeting
Ultimately, it was more than heated consciousness raising sessions that led to RFK’s evolution with respect to race and civil rights.
Omnes Omnibus
@Linnaeus: Oh god yes, I was wrong by putting the word basically in my comment about this. My fucking bad.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Linnaeus:
You beat me to it. To use an extreme example, Charlton Heston marched with Dr. King and participated in marches and public boycotts. Diddn’t stop him from having effed-up racial attitudes and being a Reagan supporter 20 years later.
Betty Cracker
@cokane: Such concern!
Jimgod
@cokane: Careful. He’ll show you his double hashtags from the other 4 threads if you keep it up.
Linnaeus
@Omnes Omnibus:
Oh, I wouldn’t say wrong – I was registering my vehement disgust at the NR piece more than anything. I mean, there’s almost no depths to which they won’t sink, as long as they can put a veneer of erudition over it.
BubbaDave
@guachi:
If I were any whiter my skin would actually illuminate a room when I walked in. But trust me, I share your concern about the limited amount of attention being paid to white people. So marginalized!
AxelFoley
@Cacti:
Basically sums this whole thing up. The butt-hurt we’ve seen since this thing went down this weekend is strong (and hilarious).
Funny how many so-called progressives lose their shit when it’s their boy who gets called out for his dismissive attitude towards POC (“racism is over”, “blacks only voted for Obama because he’s black”).
Muthafucka, you need us a whole helluva lot more than we need you.
Brachiator
@Linnaeus:
Given that SNCC was the more activist wing of the 60s civil rights movement, this would be more than just cruising on past accomplishments. And this involvement was much more than marching with civil rights leaders.
This also gives him a great deal of credibility compared to some of his critics. But I am not suggesting that he rest on these laurels. But it does directly contradict those who imply that he has been apart from and above civil rights issues. To the contrary, he was in the thick of it.
I would think, though, that he should be more assertive in connecting his past with his present views and activities.
Omnes Omnibus
@Linnaeus: Okay, tone on the internet can be odd. I understated intentionally when I posted my original comment. I assumed that people would see that.
AxelFoley
@Cacti:
Bingo.
Bernie shot himself in the foot. He’s on some O’Malley level shit.
Omnes Omnibus
@AxelFoley:
See how a full on right wing Supreme Court works out for you.
ETA: We need each other.
Linnaeus
@Omnes Omnibus:
I did see that. I was just building on it – but I could have been clearer.
gwangung
@Brachiator:
That is not a get out of jail card. That buys you some grace, but you need to back it up with current solutions.
And from what I saw and heard, Sanders did not handle it well—his withdrawal from interviews and meetings and failure to follow up does indeed give the impression he doesn’t care…and it’s entirely self inflicted
Thoroughly Pizzled
We all need each other. What are we even fighting about anymore? The protest seems to have tipped off Bernie and O’Malley that they need to give serious attention to race issues — didn’t it do its job?
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
Being involved in and an organizer of SNCC is very different from just participating in marches. This activity puts Bernie at least partly inside the strategy sessions of the 60s civil rights movement in a way that few other people can say. And from here one can easily examine Sanders’ political record. He may not be as hot about racial matters as some would like him to be, but to suggest that he may lack some fundamental understanding about race does not hold up to scrutiny.
cokane
@AxelFoley: why is “racism is over” in quotes? Is that something Sanders said?
Omnes Omnibus
@Thoroughly Pizzled: In my view, yes. And HRC addressed a number of those issues in an interview today. So, let’s count it as a successful protest.
AxelFoley
@guachi:
And where did your racist punk ass get these numbers?
Linnaeus
@Brachiator:
Well, that’s just it. If he’s not more assertive about connecting his record to the present day and how that demonstrates that he takes these issues seriously in their own right, then that raises the question as to why.
Kropadope
@AxelFoley:
Wasn’t the disrupted panel on immigration and didn’t they already have their own 3 parts per toomanyjens on other thread?
Brachiator
@gwangung:
I agree about the need to back it up. But it’s funny. I’m not even a big Sanders supporter, but when someone wants to criticize him about a lack of understanding, I will want to know what, exactly, his critics have done with respect to civil rights.
burnspbesq
@AxelFoley:
Hilarious. Can you count past eleven?
AxelFoley
@Omnes Omnibus:
Oh, you’re gonna go with that line, huh? Hey, I lived through the Bush years. I’ll manage.
I don’t think certain white folks know how to live through struggle anymore, so we’ll see how that works out for you.
But yes, we need each other. It’d be nice if white “progressives” remembered that.
AxelFoley
@cokane:
He said it last year in an interview.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope:Come on. The interruptions were due to who was speaking not the the topic of the discussion. People who cannot recognize this aren’t worth conversation.
AxelFoley
@burnspbesq:
Can you, asshole?
gwangung
@Brachiator: Oh, please don’t go there. Just don’t. It’s patronizing as hell…and very prone to getting yourself schooled on who’s done exactly what on things you didn’t know about because there so damn much information out there that it’s impossible to keep up with everything.
What are his policies now? How are they going to help now, and how are they different from the past progressive policies that were perverted by baked in institutional racism (a la the New Deal)?
Suzanne
@AxelFoley: It is the nature of the political left in this country that we are a broad coalition and that we only have a hope of winning even shitty partial victories if we all get our asses on the party line together. Unfortunately, that has meant that some groups have not gotten enough specific attention paid to their issues, and I absolutely concur that the issues facing the African-American community typically end up too far down the line. I would much prefer if all the different marginalized groups could see each other as allies and actually be allies, rather than taking potshots at each other, because I truly believe we’d do a better job of advancing an agenda that benefits all of us if we did that. We need each other. I truly don’t see any good coming for the Black community if y’all sit this election out. In fact, I think it would be suicidal and would set your agenda back years. But WTF do I know.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Brachiator:
Um, you’re not actually asking what the people from Black Lives Matter have done for civil rights, are you? You’re talking about random internet and Twitter commenters and not the activists at NN, right?
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: In my view, yes. And HRC addressed a number of those issues in an interview today. So, let’s count it as a successful protest.
Because…
you know…
they hadn’t been.
Omnes Omnibus
@AxelFoley: You may want to step the fuck back. I was talking to you. You are talking to me. Go find some of the “white progressive” quotes from me. I’ll look in the morning.
Kropadope
Other links per FYWP:
Clinton
Webb
dogwood
@AxelFoley:
He’s an ass, but those numbers don’t seem unlikely to me. The percentage of the electorate that is white/male is much higher than the percentage that is black.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Post a functional link and I will consider not laughing at you.
Suzanne
I will also note that NN was in Phoenix this year, and this city and state have had their own specific problems with racism, though in regards to the Latino community. In fact, our fabulous Sheriff Joke is facing a whole slew of legal problems because of how he policed Latinos and raids communities and failed to investigate sexual assaults against Latinas. This is also a place that has a huge number of undocumented immigrants and a young immigrant population. NN focused on that this year, and that issue is also very timely. I guarantee you that Latino rights activists, of which I know many, are feeling like the wind got sucked out of their sails because of all the coverage of this incident. That’s really the media’s fault for not being able to focus on two things at once, but this is how various constituencies get pissed at each other, when in order to be successful, we all need to support each other.
Cacti
@AxelFoley:
Here’s the interview you mentioned, with NPR back in November:
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Kropadope:
I’m not on Twitter so maybe I have my rose-colored glasses on, but if all of the Democratic candidates are now discussing race and policing issues (or at least getting more attention for existing discussions) where they weren’t before, I think we have to count that as a clear win for #BLM.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus:
The candidates were already there attempting to speak to the needs of another marginalized community and BLM took away from them. All these candidates by and large are on the right side of these issues. Some have even done significant work on improving things. I even think they probably did the campaigns a favor in the form of getting them to think about these issues more urgently, which might help them attract supporters. Still, this seems strangely aggressive given the target. All I’m saying is that better target selection might be in order.
mtiffany
Can’t we all just talk about our mutual love of pie?
There… much better…
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Suzanne:
Here’s a bit of the problem, though — how much of a force is the Latino vote in Arizona politics? They don’t seem to have much of an influence, though that may be due to gerrymandering. Same in Texas — people keep talking about what a powerful voting block Latinos could be, if they turned out to vote.
African-Americans, on the other hand, are a known and reliable voting block for Democrats. I can see why they might get annoyed at being ignored while Dems chase after a block that doesn’t vote consistently in a lot of states. (California is a major exception — Latinos here are a large and powerful voting block and one of the reasons we’ve gone so strongly Democrat in the past few years.)
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: No, you fundamentally don’t understand the protests. They protested in front where they would get attention.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Those were all from prior to this event. Hillary’s was from earlier this year, Bernie’s from last year, Webb from 08 (when he was in office), O’Malley signed voter right legislation in office however long ago. Getting the candidates thinking about another sector of the electorate will be good for them in the long run, but disrupt protests just seem like the wrong tool for the wrong job. This seems better suited to a town council meeting or legislative session.
Omnes Omnibus
@John Cole: Are you really that dumb?
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@John Cole:
Dude, you really had to pick ruemara to unload on? Really?
Yeah, you’re being a dick. Also being pointlessly assholish to people who don’t deserve it. Step back.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: Lefty blogs are not the world and were already talking about these issues too and the story in the MSM was predictably “Dems in disarray.”
Linnaeus
@John Cole:
I know you’re frustrated, John, but please rethink that comment a bit.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Kropadope:
I completely disagree. As someone pointed out when this first happened, Netroots Nation is known for this kind of thing. Someone gets booed or shouted down or protested every year.
And, yeah, I can’t help but notice that some people (present company excepted) loved it when it was Obama’s representative who got booed offstage in 2010 (IIRC) but are all upset that their sacred cow is the one that got gored this year.
Suzanne
@Mnemosyne (tablet): AZ has a high percentage of undocumented immigrants compared to other states, so a lot of that community is not eligible to vote. We have lots of Dreamers and families of mixed citizenship, and the immigration issue is vital and timely for them. We do have two majority-minority Congressional districts (out of 9)—both represented by Dems. We also have a fairly small AA population. In my experience, Latinos are the ones that face the most racial discrimination and have the worst economic circumstances here. So no, they do not have an electoral pull equal to their numbers.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Great. Now, put it in a coherent sentence.
mtiffany
@John Cole:
And what Sanders usually precedes that with is “We should stop militarizing the police, and take the money being spent on that nonsense, and use it to fund education and jobs in the communities that most need them.” He said just as much to Ed Schultz on MSNBC during Ferguson. (Too tired to find the link — I posted it one of the previous threads on this topic).
John Cole
@Mnemosyne (tablet): I deleted it. I didn’t mean to unload on Ruemara (and really didn’t- I just sort of shotgunned all my frustrations and because I was responding to her comment indirectly, it seemed like it). It honestly was not directed at her, more to everyone.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: Relax, buddy. The text box doesn’t always pick up my key-strokes. One of the three provided links failed. What is your major malfunction?
Here’s the Bernie link, pumpkin.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@John Cole:
Thank you. I don’t mind if you unload on one of the resident assholes like myself, but that was a little misdirected.
Omnes Omnibus
@John Cole: On whom did you wish to unload?
John Cole
@Omnes Omnibus: Everyone, basically. Cacti, a lot. But everyone.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
For what it’s worth, I wasn’t on board that train either.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus:
And people tell me I’m condescending.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Suzanne:
I do think Sandra Bland’s death pushed people over the edge and made their issue feel more urgent right this moment than immigration issues, but I can also see why the people who did want to discuss immigration and Latino issues would feel brushed aside right now. It’s a tough balance to strike.
mtiffany
@Kropadope:
This would be the same MSM that hires the likes of Don Lemon? The man who thought Goole Earth is a real-time display of the Earth, and that a black hole swallowed an airplane? That MSM? Them? The “both sides do it,” “there’s debate among scientists about global warming,” “do business owners with religious objections to same-sex marriage have to serve gay couples?” and the Fox-and-Friends-lite Joe and Mika shitshow ought to pollute the airwaves for three hours each weekday morning MSM? Fuck them.
If ‘lefty blogs’ is all we’ve got, then that’s all we’ve got.
Omnes Omnibus
@John Cole: Dude, you really need to chill. Take a walk, Make some tea.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Kropadope:
Yes, that’s why I excepted present company from my statement — I don’t think anyone here was cheering on the other protests at NN. I’m just pointing out that expecting NN to be a sedate exchange of ideas is like expecting there to be no fights at a hockey game.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Sorry, I wasn’t certain that you didn’t just mean yourself, my bad.
wasabi gasp
@Cacti: Axel was having a hard enough time already, then you go and squash his quotes. Someone should apologize. Probably Bernie.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Try to do it.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus: Talking to you is pointless. Does that suffice?
sparrow
@Cacti: I read that as “we have overcome enough of racism to elect a black president” (which is a perfectly valid statement), not “all problems are solved, geez why can’t you guys stop talking about race, I don’t even SEE race” type of comment that you get typically from right-wingers that declare racism is over.
Brachiator
@gwangung:
It’s not a contest. But some people don’t even try to do their homework. They make assumptions or jump on board weak character assassination insinuations. There is too much riding on the upcoming election for this kind of nonsense.
This all remains to be seen, doesn’t it? And I presume that you expect this of all the presidential candidates.
@Mnemosyne (tablet)
No.
cokane
@Cacti: he’s clearly saying racism still persists.
mtiffany
@Brachiator:
Insinuate that anyone that didn’t instantly understand their demands and concerns was an unreconstructed racist? And then use the rightly-felt offense at the implication as a rhetorical cudgel that “You wouldn’t be offended by the allegation that you’re a racist if you weren’t a racist.”
Betty Cracker
@mtiffany: I did feel a little sorry for O’Malley when I watched the clip. It was obvious he didn’t know about the “all lives matter” crap from Twitter, so he walked right into that and was confused when he got booed. I wonder if the campaign gurus are thinking about adding staff so they can more closely monitor social media trends and avoid stepping on Twitter landmines.
mtiffany
@Betty Cracker:
I have such conflicted feelings about O’Malley — what he says gives me, as the kids say, “all the feels” (not that I agree with him on everything — “retirement savings accounts” in addition to SocSec or as a replacement?) but the way he governed (as mayor and governor) — the more I read about his record, that gets harder to embrace or defend…
But yeah, when you’re invited to speak, you kind of have the expectation that you’ll be allowed to speak. And for a while, I absolutely loathed the protesters that interrupted him and essentially demanded the stage and booed him when he said “All lives matter,” because at first, it really came across (to me) as “fuck whitey.”
Then.. I looked at the BLM protesters from the perspective of ACT UP and for me it clicked: #BlackLivesMatter is to black people now as SILENCE = DEATH was to the gay community at the height of the AIDS crisis in the 80s/90s
I won’t reproduce the comment in full, but I wrote about that realization in another thread here on BJ (https://balloon-juice.com/2015/07/19/open-thread-i-am-not-a-member-of-any-organized-political-party/#comment-5410313)
And so far as Twitter is concerned, that is not just a minefield, but a minefield built in toxic-waste landfill that’s been flooded with sewage to become a swamp. What I can say about Twitter — best to stick to Tweeting cat pics. And adorable vines of adorable puppies.
David Koch
People who believe a 75 year old socialist is going to win a national election – now THATS white privilege.
P.S.
If Hillary had pulled the same shit Sanders did at NN, the vaunted blogosphere would be tearing her to bits. Oh, but Sanders is the Messiah so he gets a free pass.
Betty Cracker
@mtiffany: I saw your Silence = Death analogy earlier, and it’s a good one. I’m old enough to remember those awful days when friends were dying right and left. I didn’t give a shit if ACT UP hurt people’s feelings. The BLM people are feeling that now, and it’s understandable.
I’m also iffy on O’Malley. Hell, I’m iffy on everyone of them. But I’ll get behind whoever eventually gets the nomination because it’s important to keep the crazies out. We’ve made some progress with Obama that needs protecting.
Betty Cracker
@David Koch: I don’t know anyone who seriously believes Sanders is going to win; some of us are happy he’s in it because he’s bringing wealth inequality and money in politics issues front and center, and those are important topics.
But you’re completely full of shit about Sanders getting a pass. He’s getting ripped to shreds all over the place. Some of the criticism is warranted — I think he handled the protest incident badly.
But some of it is self-righteous preening and ugly grandstanding that does nothing but unnecessarily piss off fellow Democrats and make the people leveling that brand of criticism look like assholes.
David Koch
So wealthy and middle class blacks, latinos, jews, and women should only vote on income?
Don’t you see how out of touch, privileged, and stoopid that is?
Trayvon Martin was murdered walking home in a gated community. Should his family vote based on their income?
David Koch
@Betty Cracker:
I’m sure that’s true. I don’t doubt you. But you just also described the behavior of Sanders-stans for the past 3 months.
Cervantes
@David Koch:
Not basing your politics on the color of your skin is an ideal. It’s debatable, even. But it’s not “stoopid.”
Betty Cracker
@David Koch: I’m sure some Sanders supporters on the Internet have been condescending assholes. On the other hand, so have you and your pal Cacti, right here at Balloon Juice, on damn near every thread where this topic is discussed. You keep waving the above quote around like a trump card, as if that’s the only thing Sanders has ever said on the issue. It’s not. He also said this a few weeks ago:
And since the BLM protest this weekend, he’s said more on the police brutality issue — it appears the protest underscored that issue for him and that he’s talking about it more. Isn’t that a good thing? Wasn’t that the whole goddamned point?
I’ve got no illusions Sanders is going to win the nomination, but it’s not stupid, crazy or racist to focus on economic issues — that’s Sanders’ thing and always has been. If you think he’s not paying enough attention to what’s important to you — fine, support someone else. And when Sanders stumbles like he did in AZ, it’s fair to point that out. But I don’t get the need to relentlessly attack Sanders like you’re doing. If the object is to move others to your point of view, you’re doing it wrong.
mtiffany
@Betty Cracker:
Thanks. I was on Twitter on Sunday (but have since burned the account) and could not for the life of me figure out “what are they* so angry about?!” And a kind-hearted Twit told me that I didn’t really give a shit about black people because (paraphrasing here) “now that you faggots can get married you don’t need to pretend to care anymore,” accusing me of IGMFY, I guess, but it’s nice when people take the time to read your Twitter profile. And the intersection of ‘faggots’ from the BLM Twit and my “why are they angry?” eventually brought me back to 1991 and being told “Why are you gays so angry? Clinton is good on gays.” That was the ah-ha moment for me. Thing is, we were assholes back then. In-your-face you-don’t-fucking-get-it-you-entitled-straight-piece-of-shit activists.
But Twitter… by the Starchy Residue of His Drained Colander, the loudest and most vocal BLM activists on Twitter were just rancourous twatwaffles. I went on Twitter to try to figure out what the hell went down — “I don’t understand what you’re trying to do here, why are you mad at Sanders, help me out…” — there’s that third part of the disrupt, enrage, and engage strategy and May My Flesh Be Scalded In The Pot Of Boiling Water In Which Our Host Is Prepared I never once got engaged on the issue — it was just accusations of racism and being a Bernie-stan — which a former regular MSNBC contributor called me when she said she didn’t have time to waste on me.
ACT UP had copious amounts of entitlement and righteous indignation, but the point was to wound people (and yes, it was to wound and hurt people’s feelings) enough to make them confront the issue so that you could engage them and bring them around, “this is what’s happening to us, this is how you can help,” not just keep ripping the wound open wider and deeper and pissing in it and then throwing salt on top, and that’s all Twitter was on Sunday.
And the optics of the protest that are now forming aren’t so great. There’s that picture of Tia Oso on stage between Vargas and O’Malley. She’s smiling, but that picture of her up there alone may come back to haunt the movement. When a mass of people do disrupt, enrage, and engage, that’s protest. When you only see one person do it, that’s the DSM definition of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. And that’s how people can spin it. But then again, the optics of ACT UP were criticized too. I’m not saying ACT UP did it better (but I’m sure some helpful soul will accuse me of whitesplaining or gaysplaining or whatever), but it was before the Internet and the instant dissemination of images and sounds and it took longer for opinions to form and you had time to breathe and figure things out.
Today, it’s like people have to figure it out instantly, and if they can’t wrap their head around the issue perfectly, they’re not really trying or #ShutUpTheWhiteMenAreTalking or whatver douchery is floating about.
I get it now, or at least, “#BlackLivesMatter is the modern day SILENCE = DEATH” is how I understand the underlying reasons and strategies of the BLM movement, but there comes a time when you have to stop being angry at everything and picking fights with everyone and actually try to bring people around. And the people who aren’t ‘getting it’ (The Bernie-stans WETF that means) by sticking to “They didn’t let O’Malley and Sanders speak” are missing the point too. But the protesters and activists have an obligation (Yes.) to say “It’s not about silencing O’Malley and Sander, it’s about us being heard. We’re not being allowed to speak, You aren’t listening to us. We’re dying and we need your help to make it stop and we can’t wait for you to figure it out on your own comfortable timetable any more. Will you please just LISTEN TO ME!!!”
There’s so much to unpack about this. My head hurts. I need pie.
*NB: Not the Ross Perot ‘they,’ or ‘you people.’
Joel
@ruemara: I agree with you on the former, but Twitter is a poor educational vehicle.
Joel
By the way, Jesus Christ folks, running a coalition is hard.
If Bernie and Tommy Carcetti can’t fucking swim in the kiddie pool, they are not ready for primetime.
White Trash Liberal
@Cervantes: @Cervantes:
No, what’s stupid is telling POC that their voting rationale isn’t as important as his. That’s condescending and out of touch. “Listen to me, I know what’s best for you,” isn’t going to fly.
I don’t think this is a circular firing squad. This is a teachable moment. I think those calling it a CFS are trying their hardest to avoid introspection on this topic.
BLM is asking the candidates to earn their vote in the primary. Black Twitter is full of people who were/are genuinely Sanders curious and want him to move beyond his economics focus and engage in social justice specifics. Wealth redistribution AND justice redistribution. Sanders’ reaction, along with his online fanboys trying to inoculate him from any criticism because he marched in the 60s, have pissed off a lot of these people and their mockery is painful because it’s true.
If Sanders were still so aware, IMO, he would recall that the civil rights leaders he marched with made a point to emphasize social justice for minorities because a war on poverty does not make voting rights or law enforcement abuse magically go away. I mean, fuck, are we all that obtuse? STILL?!
Paula
@Joel:
Well, yes — but take heart that most of the real world has moved on or back to Trump and the RNC race. No one cares about this crap because NN is, well, clearly a bit of a “kiddie pool”.
different-church-lady
@guachi:
Screw white people; it’s the idea that there aren’t other genuinely oppressed groups in this country who also deserve some time that’s sticking in my craw.
different-church-lady
@mtiffany: I guess what’s confusing me right now is this idea that if Sanders and O’Malley and me and you and everyone else on BJ would just SHUT THE FUCK UP AND LISTEN then somehow cops would no longer kill innocent black people.
Kay
My one and only take on it is Clinton was booed at NN in 2007 and her campaign was over-shadowed at the NN on Detroit by the Ready for Warren folks (I was there) so she didn’t show up this year.
I don’t think it’s fair for the front-runner to get a complete pass. Bill Clinton sucked on criminal justice issues. He grandstanded on crime and played the southern prosecutor card to the hilt, as I remember it. Worse, I think he believed it- he loved shit like “boot camps for juveniles”. A lot of that stuff is discredited- it was crappy policy. He was wrong.
She should be asked about that since it is unlikely Sanders wins and likely she’s the nominee.
The Raven on the Hill
BLM – attack the candidate who is most on your side, yes, that makes sense, right.
“the loudest and most vocal
BLMxxx activists on Twitter were just rancourous twatwaffles.”Fixed.
msdc
@AxelFoley:
2012 electorate:
White 72%
Black 13%
Hispanic 10%
Asian 3%
Other 2%
Good luck with your purity party.
mtiffany
@different-church-lady: I’ll explain this as best I can, please believe me when I say that I’m writing this in good faith, (once you’ve got their attention engage them): here’s what I’d like you to hear. If you’re angry that O’Malley and Sanders got interrupted, that we silenced them unfairly, you’re right to feel that way. If you’re angry that people have implied that you were racist or a bigot or even that you just plain didn’t care, you have a right to feel angry. Your feelings are real, your opinions are valid, and you are a human being — worthy of dignity and respect, but right now I’d like to move on from your feelings and your dignity and ask you to think about this:
Nizah Morris was a transgendered drag performer. After a night out attending a party at a bar in Philadelphia, police reports say that Nizah was offered a courtesy ride by a Philadelphia Police officer. Fifteen minutes after accepting the ride, Nizah was found on a sidewalk, beaten and unconcious from severe head trauma. She was transported to a hospital but died days later when life support was withdrawn at the request of her family. No suspects have ever been identified in her murder.
Trayvon Martin was 17 years old when he was gunned down by George Zimmerman. Zimmerman went to court, got tried, and got off under a law that let him ‘stand his ground.’ The law let an adult man with a gun kill an unarmed 17-year old black child who didn’t even threaten that adult man and the law didn’t call it murder.
Michael Brown was 18 years old when he was shot dead by a Ferguson, MO, police officer. He was unarmed when he was shot, and his corpse was left in the sun for hours. When the community protested, the police sent in armored personnel vehicles, and used tear gas and rubber bullets. Police officers even point automatic weapons at people who were armed with nothing more than their outrage and their voices.
Eric Garner was accused of selling loose cigarettes on a New York City street corner. When he denied the accusation he was surrounded by a group of police officers and put in a choke hold. He said “I can’t breate” over and over and over again, and he only stopped saying that he couldn’t breathe after the police officer had choked him to death.
Cynthia Marie Graham Hurd, 54, Susie Jackson, 87, Ethel Lee Lance, 70, Depayne Middleton-Doctor, 49, Clementa C. Pinckney, 41, Tywanza Sanders, 26, Daniel Simmons, 74, Sharonda Coleman-Singleton, 45, and Myra Thompson, 59, were gathered at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church for Bible study, when they welcomed in a stranger, Dylann Roof, to join them. Roof shot and killed them. The survivors and witnesses to the massacre report that Roof said “I have to do it. You rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go.” The surviviors also report that he while he was shooting he was yelling “nigger” and other racial epithets at the people he was murdering. A five year-old girl present in the church only survived the shooting by pretending to play dead. A five year old girl is only alive today because she pretended to play dead. After Roof murdered those nine people and was captured and in custody, the police went to get fast food. When an office inquired of Roof how long it had been since he had last eaten, the police included Roof’s order in their fast food run. The police bought a man Burger King after he murdered nine people.
Sandra Bland was driving to a new life and a new job when she pulled over by the police, allegedly for making an unsignaled turn and for using her cellphone while driving. While in police custody, she was found hanging in her jail cell. The noose was fashioned from a black plastic garbage bag. The death is being investigated as a homicide.
I’d like to consider for a moment the lives those names represent. Real people. Real people who are now dead.
Now I want to ask you — whose silencing makes you more angry? O’Malley and Sanders, or theirs? What should you be more angry about? What do you think we’re angry about? I’m not blaming you for their deaths, but there is a plague of violence in this country and it is killing black people every day.
And I don’t want you to be silent about it. If you’re angry about these deaths, if you feel even the slightest bit out outrage about it, you can’t be silent about it. We need you to scream about it, we need you to get angry about, and we need you to get your friends and your family angry about. We need you to join us.
And then we need you start screaming at every elected offical that represents you. Call and write and email the President, and both of your Senators and your Congressman, and your Governor, and your State Representative and your State Senator and the mayor of your town and the chief of police and every member of your county board of supervisors. Tell them that this plague is killing us and that they need to help stop it.
Tell them that they need to end the militarization of the police. Tell them that the police need to wear body cameras at all times. Tell them that black people are not automatically a threat, or a suspect, or “up to no good” just because they’re out after dark and they’re wearing a hoodie. And tell them there’s no excuse to choke a man to death, especially when he’s crying out that he can’t breathe. Tell them Black Lives Matter,
and for the love of god, don’t be silent any more,
your silence is killing us.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: She was asked about it in a Facebook Q&A yesterday and gave a pretty solid answer, I thought. She also gave a speech a while back that indicates her approach would be very different from Bill Clinton’s, and he has even admitted his approach made things worse. I’m not sold on HRC or any other candidate yet, but it sure appears she’s learned from past mistakes or at least realizes times have changed.
Kay
In other words, If we’re going to have challenges to Democrats on the Left I sure hope we also see some challenges to centrist Democrats, because centrist Democrats hold all the power and centrist Democrats were always the “law ‘n order” branch.
aimai
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Yes but Sanders doesn’t have effe’d up racist beliefs and has never supported the Republicans. Its true that past performance is no guarantee of future etc… but its not necessary to accuse a middle of the road white socialist of being an out and out racist. He’s really not. He might still have a lot of learning to do but if he’s not educable then what’s the point of even trying to address his campaign? BLM has to have a two pronged attack: gain attention/force the issue and then work with the (hopefully) educated and chastened politicians who they are trying to influence. Bernie and HRC are people who need to be forced, or educated, to move in a certain direction. They aren’t the enemy. And they aren’t republicans.
aimai
@mtiffany: Great Comment. Fantastic. Thank you so much.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
That’s great because it was never progressives in the Democratic Party who ran on law and order; draconian criminal justice stuff. It was always the centrists. As I remember it was part of the magical Third Way recipe for carrying states like Arkansas.
BLM and progressives have something in common in the Democratic Party. They both feel they’re ignored and taken for granted by the institutional DC-based Party. They’re both trying to shake up the same organization.
David Koch
@Betty Cracker: you’re throwing vulgarities at me, with condescension, no less, and I’m the bad guy.
talk about projection
Another Holocene Human
@John Cole: He wasn’t shouted down, Cole.
But you know this.
Most of this fracas on twitter has been perpetuated by Sanders’ alleged supporters. Like, it wasn’t enough to be like, hey, he screwed up, that’s mighty weird. No, they had to argue the point and concern troll Black media and bully potential Black voters and for what? They’re not making Sanders look good with this stuff. Sanders himself put out a statement supportive of #BlackLivesMatters while his stupid followers keep wanking about marching with Dr. King. They sound almost as bad as #tcot with that shit. (“MLK was a Republican!” (lie, but a lot of people believe it, anyway, so what) “Democrats blocked the CRA!” (Dixiecrats, no, that distinction actually does fucking matter)).
Then Kevin Drum went and concerned trolled about BLM’s list of demands, which looked like a pretty articulate and coherent set of goals except for that bog-standard-leftie demand to release all political prisoners (who’s a political prisoner? which ones?). Oh no, it’s not a legislative programme. Hello, this movement is bigger than a legislative programme. First of all, when VRA can be gutted by SCOTUS despite being rubber stamped by the legislature, I think you need to think bigger than legislation. Also, a lot of work is being done on media representation which, hello first amendment, is not a governmental matter! #BLM is a grassroots issue-based organization, not a lobbying group although they lobby or a group that sues people although I’m sure they work with lawyers. Drum, get real, this is not the first community-based organizing you’ve ever seen in your life.
different-church-lady
@mtiffany: There’s a lot of individual things I’d like to say in agreement and amplification, but it would take a lot of time to organize them coherently, so for the moment I’ll only say amen to all of that.
mtiffany
@aimai: Thanks. You should see how that works in person. And I’m sure I screwed it up. There was a part about dignity and respect that I skipped over. Can’t remember how that fit it.
I need pie.
mtiffany
@different-church-lady: I don’t know how to ask this without sounding like an asshole, but again, please extend me the benefit of the doubt, again.
If you were angry about O’Malley and Sanders being silenced, do you undestand now how the BLM community feels like they’re being silenced?
Do you get what they’re angry about?
And most importantly, does it help persuade you to their side?
All the pretty language in the world ain’t worth the wind it disappears into if you haven’t changed someone’s mind…
Another Holocene Human
@guachi: That’s nice and all but if GA and NC turn blue, it won’t be because of changes in white voting patterns.
FL is blue because of the increase in Black and brown voter participation.
Where does it come down to the white vote? Places like MA, OR, WA, MN, VT….
NV was won by Hispanics. AZ will be too. NM will come down to the Hispanic vote.
This is highly regional.
At any rate, if Jews and the GLBT community can advocate for their interests within the Democratic party–by no means a forgone conclusion–then by gum so can the African American community. Blacks are a much bigger percentage of all Dem voters than the previous two groups, probably combined.*
*-only counting queer people who identify that way, closet cases probably vote GOP anyway if previous election patterns are anything to go by
eta: @guachi: Oh well, nm, my bad for responding to you
Another Holocene Human
@Suzanne:
I wish Sanders’ ostensible supporters could stop catastrophizing (we just lost the election!) and also stop going after Black people on twitter with condescending bullshit that makes all white liberals and progressives and lefties look bad.
Yeah, I think Sanders IS smarter than his stupid supporters. That much is clear.
Kay
@David Koch:
It’s about Sanders with you. Last year at NN immigration activists went after Biden. Were you supporting that protest?
different-church-lady
@mtiffany:
First off, I should say my initial comment was more in the spirit of amplifying yours than debating it — a misunderstanding I seem to create far too often.
Speaking personally, I’m not angry about it at all. Neither one of those cats needs my sympathy. I was only trying to make a point about tactics and effectiveness.
It would be impossible for me to genuinely understand it, because I will never have to walk in those shoes. It’s the well worn difference between sympathy and empathy. It would be obscenely presumptive of me to say I know how you feel. I can only imagine what it would be like. The most I can do is use those imaginings to attempt to help.
Yes. The anger needs no justification. It ought to be self-evident.
I was already on “their side”. The only “side” that’s worth being on is the one that stops blacks from getting killed and harassed. That being said, I might have different opinions in regards to how that’s going to get accomplished. And I think the fact that this event has defined the two “sides” in the way it has is entirely counter-productive.
mtiffany
@Betty Cracker: If you’re feeling nostalgic for the olden days of ACT UP (!?), here’s that ‘engage’ part I was bleating on about: repurposed for BLM ‘by whities for whities’ https://balloon-juice.com/2015/07/20/what-i-learned-on-twitter-today/#comment-5411784
Another Holocene Human
@AxelFoley: I guess he walked it back because the first article that came up when I searched for that phrase was an article from yesterday about Sanders talking about structural racism, which would kind of be the opposite statement.
I think Bernie got the message. Wish his dudebro supporters would.
Another Holocene Human
@Suzanne: I keep seeing whites accusing Blacks of threatening to sit the election out. I yet to see a single Black person say “I’m a liberal but I’m going to sit this election out.” This is a primary, don’t we all get a chance to kick the tires on every candidate?
I have seen, already, white people threatening to not vote or vote GOP in response to the twitter war, so being easily offended and taking your ball and going home seems to be a white thang.
Kay
@David Koch:
Was this a big issue to you at the time? Because it sure seems like Bernie Sanders is your target.
Another Holocene Human
@dogwood: My back of the envelope is that I know 12% of total electorate is Black, approx 80% is white, if 50% of white voters are male and 60% of white voters voted GOP, that means 18% of electorate is a white male who voted democratic. This is a big over-estimate, though, I think more than 60% of white males voted GOP and I know men are less than half of population, not sure what % of voters they are but females are over-favored among older pop tranches more likely to vote. So we’re talking about two roughly equal groups in size, not a vast group vs. a small interest group.
mtiffany
@Another Holocene Human:
You never can tell what people will do.
https://twitter.com/goldietaylor/status/623343084357742592
different-church-lady
@mtiffany: Maybe the problem here is not Sanders nor O’Malley nor BLM — maybe the problem is Twitter.
(ETA: comment no longer makes sense due to other ETA)
(ETA to ETA: comment now makes slightly more sense due to other ETA to ETA.)
mtiffany
@different-church-lady: You read my mind. How can anyone make that sort of argument in 140 characters?
Another Holocene Human
@mtiffany: Good comment. I was mostly too young for ACT UP! but I benefited from their good work.
Another Holocene Human
@David Koch:
“Hilary is aloof” “Hilary wants to be coronated” “Hilary is out of touch”
Sooooo true. Not shilling for Hilary here but some of Sanders’ proponents are talking about a guru or a god, not a man.
mtiffany
@Another Holocene Human: Okay, this time, with the right link:
What’s the diffrence between advocating for a candidate (Sanders) and advocating for a cause (BLM)?
Goldie Taylor: 270 electoral votes.
Stay classy, Goldie.
http://inagist.com/all/622837274078760960/
Another Holocene Human
@msdc:
Total Black D voters: 12%
Est. (60% vote GOP, sexes equal) white male D voters: 14%
And the limbo goes down, down.
mtiffany
@different-church-lady: But then again, how organized is your protest movement if you have no game plan on how to win over hearts and minds? That’s the whole point of protesting is to win over enough support to get the change you desire.
“We’ve disrupted you to enrage you, we’ve enraged you to engage you, and now that we have your attention… DERP.”
Another Holocene Human
@Kay: I’m not David, but why shouldn’t they come after a Obama administration official when he has ramped up deportations?
Another Holocene Human
@mtiffany: ??? Isn’t she talking about the decisions candidates make on the campaign trail?
This isn’t some Ed Show shit unless I missed something.
Another Holocene Human
@mtiffany: Wait, so she deleted it? That tweet is ambiguous to me, I have your interpretation, well, I also have mine. Everything she hasn’t deleted makes perfect sense so are you sure that’s what she’s trying to put out there?
mtiffany
@Another Holocene Human: Sorry, wrong link. Right link is… in this comment Ta-da, here… the missing stuff is my deletions. I burned my Twitter. Done with it. The whole convo was about BLM and Sanders.
Another Holocene Human
I’m following Elon James White’s twitter feed. I think he really explains it better than anyone else. And he’s echoing you a bit here, mtiffany:
https://twitter.com/elonjames/status/623371560666075136
Another Holocene Human
@mtiffany: Isn’t she kind of saying advocating for a cause and advocating for a candidate are the same kind of work but a candidate has to win an election?
Isn’t the heart of this dispute about being responsive to the issues of the Black community when you’re asking for its vote? Isn’t that fair?
Would we vote for an anti-GLBT candidate running under the Dem ticket? I know I’d have a problem with that. Now if they won the primary and it was a red state and the other guy was worse, huh. But this is early in a primary, this is time for candidates to define themselves.
Sly
@aimai: I don’t think anyone’s accusing Sander’s of having “really effed up” racist beliefs. The criticism of Sanders himself extends only so far as his campaign strategy; he is trying to gain national attention and support on a policy platform he has relied upon to achieve and maintain elected office in Vermont. Obviously, by circumstance, reaffirming and defending the fundamental Americaness of black people in the United States is not going to be central to this strategy. And for people to whom that question is a question of literal life and death, that’s a real problem.
A person can be more than either an enemy or an ally, though. To believe otherwise is to adopt the same kind of thinking that compels a person to believe that so long as they aren’t burning crosses or wrapping barbed wire around Emmett Till’s neck, they are immune to the corrupting effects of white supremacy. Many in the white left, for whom “it’s not really about race, its about class,” are neither enemies nor are they allies. They are effectively non-combatants, who, in many cases, have been terrorized by the prospect of being shunned by their white family, friends, and neighbors into silence, and comfort themselves by simply saying that they are an ally but never actually doing anything about it. An ally – and I have problems with this word for this exact point of confusion – is not a state of being; it is a choice that leads to action.
Betty Cracker
@David Koch: I don’t think you’re a bad guy (that would be your Internet handle namesake ), but I do think you’re being counter-productive as hell and mirroring the very behavior you’re complaining about from the mean Sanders people on Twitter.
Another Holocene Human
I guess this is what you’re responding to?
https://twitter.com/elonjames/status/623368522974924801
Elon James White
@elonjames Elon James White retweeted Lina Blackburne
Lina Blackburne @LinaBlackburne
@elonjames As a WOC, can’t say I want a Repub pres, but I want to be ignored and taken for granted even less. #EarnThisDamnVoteOrLose
Elon James White added,
That’s where I’m at. My vote can’t be expected and I won’t be shamed into falling in line when my people are dying.
Is he wrong to feel this way?
mtiffany
@Another Holocene Human: But as you look through the feed, where’s the attempt to engage and persuade? It seems like a whole bunch of, “if you don’t understand why we’re angry, I’m not explaining it to you and that’s why you’re part of the problem.”
#EarnOurVoteOrLose
“okay, how do we earn your vote?”
#SayHerName
“Sandra Bland.”
#BlackLivesMatter
“All lives matter.”
Boooooo! Racist! #BernieSoBlack #Bernie-stan
“okay, fuck this, I need pie.”
Another Holocene Human
@Sly:
This this this.
mtiffany
@Another Holocene Human:
He’s absolutely NOT wrong to feel that. Not at all. As a matter of fact, in ’91, that was me. But where’s the egagement? Where’s the persuasion? Where’s the putting aside your anger (as legit and real and raw and well-deserved as it is) long enough to reach out to the people that are making you angry (who you are angering as well, btw) and helping them understand and winning them over?
He could very well be doing that in the real world, and probably is. But Twitter? 140 characters? Not easy if it is possible.
At the intersection of BLM and the O’Malley and Sanders incidents, Twitter seems like nothing more than a churning sea of toxic anger on both sides (“Both sides do it! Catch me on Morning Ho next Monday to plug my new book — it’s dogshit sandwiched between two paper plates, co-written by Mark Halperin”).
Another Holocene Human
@mtiffany: You can click on hashtags and see everything that was said about it. #SayHerName has been applied to Bland in the last week or so. It started as a hashtag raising awareness about the fact that Black women suffer almost as frequently as Black men at the hands of police but there has been no discussion of this even in activist circles. There was a trans woman of color killed by police in the DC area (or maybe closer to Balto but I think it was federal law enforcement not municipal) several months ago and the cops were “cleared” of any wrongdoing. (Mya Hall)
#EarnOurVoteOrLose was started by Elon as far as I can tell. He was pissed because Sanders cancelled on all of the groups he was supposed to meet with after his speech. If you go back a couple of days he has had the worst ridiculous people in his mentions and coming right at him over his lack of Sanders love because apparently if you criticize Sanders just a little bit you’re guilty of double plus un-good think and need to be re-educated. (And now he has RW trolls responding to his posts as well, although it’s probably just Tuesday.) The hashtag expresses frustration that Dem candidates feel they don’t even have to try to court the African American vote because they’ll get it by default. He’s saying, oh no you don’t. People did ask him today how he felt about Sanders’ response yesterday so you can see what he said about it on the first page of his twitter page. Elon has been very clear.
“All Lives Matter” is a classic derail. http://www.derailingfordummies.com/
Instead of talking about the fact that US law enforcement and the criminal justice system treat Black lives as if they DO NOT MATTER, hence the chant, let’s attempt to sidestep the discussion about systemic and structural racism and take it somewhere more comfortable for the privileged interlocutor. “Yeah, let’s do something about police brutality.” Study police brutality in the US for more than 2 seconds and you will see there is a social contract between TPTB and white America, your civil liberties are toilet paper but don’t worry, we’ll only wipe our ass with them in THOSE PEOPLE’s neighborhoods or when THOSE PEOPLE INVADE your neighb. So this shit is never going to stop unless we confront the race issue as well.
Another Holocene Human
@mtiffany: You know Elon has an hour-long internet radio show, right?
msdc
@Another Holocene Human: Your numbers are still a little high (the white male vote was roughly 36-37% Obama), but I’m not sure I follow your point here. The total white male vote for Obama is almost exactly equal to the total black vote for Obama. The total white vote for Obama (men and women) is more than twice as high – in fact, it is equal to the total non-white vote for all candidates.
So any claims that black voters or any other minority voters “don’t need us”? That’s arrogant, self-defeating bullshit. The Democratic party is a coalition of interests that depends on all its partners. Racial purity politics is for the other guys.
(Edited for clarity.)
mtiffany
@Another Holocene Human:
Full disclosure. I was on Twitter on Sunday, and I thought Elon was being an ass to someone without reason, so I got snarky with Elon, and then Elon handed me my ass (rightfully so) and then (in my precious white opinion, with my precious white feelings) Elon took it a step too far. So to hear someone say that Elon is ‘echoing’ me, wow, that’s some weapons-grade irony.
Another Holocene Human
lol
https://twitter.com/AngryBlackLady/status/623281724173127680
Another Holocene Human
@mtiffany: Hey, Elon’s quickwitted. I am a fan, I admit that.
mtiffany
@Another Holocene Human:
How does a candidate even hope to win ‘votes in the middle’ in the general when there’s a media machine that can and will deliberately spin #BlackLivesMatter into “Only Black Lives Matter.” Let’s not be so naive as to think the minute a Dem candidate embraces the BLM movement, that Fox isn’t going to spin that shit as “The blahs are coming for whitey.” And the second Fox does it, well, if you don’t know what a puke funnel is, have I got a lexicon entry for you https://balloon-juice.com/balloon-juice-lexicon-i-p/#P. Any Dem that says “Black Lives Matter” without also saying “White Lives Matter” and “All lives matter” is going to get smeared like a toilet bowl after a binge at Taco Bell.
I know it’s not a tantrum or trivial, but neither are the consequences of the election.
“Earn his vote?”
Earn my vote too. But I can’t expect a candidate to be so ideologically pure to my positon that they’re unable to win over anyone else.
And I can’t demand utter and complete compliance to my immediate demands if the real consequences of meeting those demands makes attainment of my long-term goal impossible.
msdc
@Sly:
Sincere question – do you think being shamed into silence by total strangers, or shouted down, or otherwise told their opinion doesn’t matter, is going to change that decision?
I agree with you that “ally” is problematic for the way that it’s become wrapped up with some kind of mental/moral state – a gold star for the socially conscious requiring no further action. But I have to wonder what kind of action the protests this weekend, and the subsequent internet/social media flare up, are supposed to produce.
Another Holocene Human
@msdc: Like Axel said, we need each other. But it’s high time that Dem national candidates didn’t take the Black vote for granted. I’m sorry, but that’s a huge block of the Dem vote. If GLBT and Jewish concerns can be taken seriously, they damn well better be taking African American concerns seriously. I can’t stand the fact that some white people who inevitably seem to have taken a few classes or read a few books about economics or social* theory think they can tell Black people what their concerns SHOULD be. Hello, white privilege means that you are not experiencing the America that they experience.
*from POV of economics
It’s as stupid as gay people or straight people for that matter telling trans people what they should be thinking or feeling or how they should transition or what they ought to do to be acceptable to police and employers and family members and partners. Hello, you’ve never walked in those shoes. You need to listen when someone is telling you about something you don’t know because just because you think society OUGHT to work that way or human biology is SUPPOSED to work that way, that’s not how it actually plays out, okay?
Another Holocene Human
@msdc: Sincere soul searching?
A change in rhetoric?
Some new people educating themselves about Black people killed by law enforcement?
New people signing up to fight City Hall in their own town?
I’ve seen the first 3, hopefully #4 is happening as well.
Another Holocene Human
I know the uber lefty activists in my town are very tuned in to what is being said nationally, to the point I get frustrated with them for not paying enough attention to what is going on around them. They were so pissed about ACA it took them a year of farting around doing ineffective activism to refocus on Medicaid expansion, for example. If it’s hot and being screamed about they jump on board and when they want to do shit, they get shit done. I know my town is not unique.
mtiffany
@Another Holocene Human: That is fucking priceless.
Another Holocene Human
@mtiffany: So let’s have a conversation about this. Fox news viewers are pretty much lost already. Dem candidates have been offering a number of specific policy points to try to address #BLM’s concerns. So far as I know these suggestions have been completely uncontroversial. Yeah, the police unions oppose cameras, and virtually nobody else. Prison sentencing reform? Widely popular. Something something retrain police? Not a lot of opponents to that. #BLM’s specific set of goals includes some controversial stuff but what the politicians have been proposing–give them some credit here–would be substantive changes if accomplished but is not going to bring down the liberal edifice. I think it’s stuff almost every Dem voter supports anyway, and quite a few R’s and I’s as well. Using the DOJ to investigate suspicious deaths in custody? Only sworn racists and police officers seem to have a problem with that.
I have yet to see a purity test being thrown out there by anyone prominent or with any sort of support (it’s not like I read all the twitters and I’m sure there are some 20 yo college student activists with demands). I think a lot of the emotion has to do with not even pretending to address these concerns like they matter. It’s like “I didn’t expect much of you and you didn’t even clear my low expectations.” It’s disappointing.
mtiffany
@msdc:
Sincere answer from someone you didn’t ask, pardon the intrusion.
The point of interrupting and silencing others is because black people have been getting killed in this country since, forever, and there has been no action taken to change it. Complete silence. You’re being silenced? The people you want to or care to hear from are being silenced? Black people are being silenced. They want you to experience what they’re experiencing.
msdc
@Another Holocene Human:
And what did the other contributors on this thread have to say to get him to that point? Because it wasn’t the kind of abjection and self-abasement that you’re flogging here.
different-church-lady
@Another Holocene Human:
Sets the exchange up to be adversarial from the get-go. It’s starting from the position that Candidate X inherently does not give a shit. Not a problem if the candidate actually does not give a shit. A big problem if the candidate does give a shit but needs some… “coaching”, shall we say.
ETA: kinda half-redacted after seeing your comment at 211
Another Holocene Human
@msdc: I’m white. Pretty sure AxelFoley is not. What exactly are you trying to say?
Should be humble, we white people have fucked up a hell of a lot and we have a mouth that doesn’t seem to know it.
Another Holocene Human
@different-church-lady: Sanders canceled meetings without explanation. Thaaaat’s kind of douchey.
I know how I’d feel if a D candidate dipped out on meetings with GLBT activists without explanation, or if a D candidate snubbed the Florida delegation with no explanation or obvious context. (You know, like that year when Florida invalidated its own primary vote.)
Another Holocene Human
Black Lives Matter! started on the road where Michael Brown was pursued and shot and his body was left in the sun like roadkill.
How quickly we forget.
msdc
@mtiffany: I understand that – that’s been the standard response to this question. What I don’t understand is how that tactic plays out in practical terms.
“We’re tired of being silenced, so we’re going to silence you, so you’re going to experience what we’re experiencing, so you’ll feel the contempt we feel for the people who silence us, and then — oh.”
Throwing that contempt back at someone else might provide a short-term high – and god knows no audience will soak it up and ask for more like progressives – but I’m wondering how it plays outside the very small circles of the progressive internet. Most of the racial discourse in this country, from all sides, seems to be geared to enforce white silence. I don’t see how the “SHUT UP AND LISTEN!” platitudes of the left change that dynamic.
Another Holocene Human
https://twitter.com/goddamnedfrank/status/623294771730083840
Another Holocene Human
WTF? Unpack this please.
Tripod
I have some sympathy for Heston (And even Reagan), in hindsight, it’s pretty clear their brains were slowly turning to calcium long before anyone knew what the fuck Alzheimer’s was. This isn’t the case with Sanders, but it’s also pretty clear his political world view was set before I was born, or my parents even voted. I don’t truck with the return to the New Frontier, because I don’t find it politically, socially or economically relevant. Electorally, that first among equals leftism was left for dead in 1972, and that’s that.
This is not about the Supreme Court. It’s about who carries the southern states on Super Tuesday. Pretty much game, set and match for Hillary, unless she gets hit by a meteor or something….
different-church-lady
@mtiffany:
The crazy thing here is that we all ought to be angry about the same things, and instead we’re all angry at each other, and how the fuck did that happen?
msdc
@Another Holocene Human: Thank you for providing a perfect example of the abjection and self-abasement that I’m talking about.
I’m pretty sure that some if not all of the commenters who called him on his bluster are white, too. They also happened to be correct.
@Another Holocene Human: And thank you also for reminding us that Michael Brown was killed. There might still be one or two people in America who do not know this, and if they happen to be reading this thread they are probably very confused right now.
Another Holocene Human
Granted this guy does engage in nutpicking–mostly of Republicans!–but some of the stuff he’s responding to on twitter is … well … read it for yourself.
https://twitter.com/theonlyadult
Yes, Virginia, we do have a white privileged prog problem.
Another Holocene Human
@msdc: Humility is not self-abasement. It means being willing to listen and not assuming you have all the answers from the get-go. It means I have enough self-confidence to endure being wrong or accept being educated sometimes.
msdc
@Another Holocene Human:
Sly already did most of the unpacking:
I would extend this far beyond the white left, actually. Most of the racial discourse in this country encourages white silence on matters of race, whether it’s mushy centrist “color blindness” or leftist abjection and shame. Only on the right do you see whites incentivized to engage the issue of race, and of course they’re rewarded for doing it in the worst ways and towards the worst possible ends.
That’s not to imply our racial discourse is only about white silence – it’s about a lot else and I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. But nearly every position in that discourse stakes out a starting position of white silence (or else unabashed racism) and I’m not seeing how the current BLM tactics, or the dogma of the left more generally, is supposed to change that.
mtiffany
@Another Holocene Human:
After the protesters shut him down. After. Would you meet with a group of people that heckled and shut you down? I would have cancelled too.
Another Holocene Human
I used to think if I could get the white lefties in the same room with the Black liberals we could really accomplish great things in my town.
Now I realize that unless it’s those few white lefties voluntarily joining Black-led organizations, that is not going to fucking happen because the majority of white lefties are not fucking interested in widening their coalition. That would mean putting down the holier than thou sceptre for a day.
We have more solidarity among the church communities working on progressive issues.
Another Holocene Human
@mtiffany: The way I heard it, he shut them up.
msdc
@Another Holocene Human:
Is that the lesson you took from this thread?
You’ve spent more time defending Axel’s contemptuous renunciation of coalition politics than Axel did. That’s not “being willing to listen.” That’s not humility. And it’s sure as hell not widening the coalition.
PS. It’s not lost on me that at this point the thread has degenerated into a bunch of white progressives yelling at each other about race. If you want the title of Least Racist White Dude, by all means take it. That and four bucks, etc.
Another Holocene Human
@msdc: Is the Southern Poverty Law Center silent? What about Bill de Blasio? White people still benefit from white privilege every day. They’ve also been conditioned to discount Black and brown voices. It’s as ridiculous as bringing in male clerics to talk about women’s reproductive rights and access to healthcare. You have uninformed white people making stupid statements all the time and then getting their feelings hurt when Black people correct them. “How dare they, I’ve done so much for them.” Hm, shades of Atticus Finch? There’s plenty of room for whites to address other whites on these issues and to use their positions of power in society to make changes but so often they’re not afraid of BLACK people, they’re afraid of WHITE people in their communities, in their families. What if I get voted out of office, how will I explain this back at the Chamber of Commerce or the golf club, or Fuck it, I don’t owe them anything. Whites when polled consistently state that they think all the other white people are more racist than they are.
It’s not that white people aren’t allowed to say things, it’s that they say the wrong thing 90% of the time due to not doing their homework or worrying more about their own feelings than the 12% of the US population they just roped into whatever their stupid statement was.
I am from Boston. It is possible for a bunch of white people to have discussions about structural racism issues and how to resolve them without being “silenced”. It probably helped that we started with a baseline of, you know, facts and did not ignore, what is that, context. And when we were doing community based things we involved, who is that, community stakeholders. Not deciding in some planning office what ought to be good for that neighborhood and getting butthurt when the nabe is insulted. Which I have seen right here in the South. Talking about real things that are real is a big problem, as is that whole democracy thing.
Another Holocene Human
@msdc: No, I was reading twitter feeds, thanks for asking.
eta: I gave you multiple chances to explain yourself. Not sure why you’re flaming out now
mtiffany
@msdc:
Okay, I can’t type all this again, so please follow these links to my previous comments in previous threads:
The first two links are quick. The third is longer. HTH.
Part 1: #BlackLivesMatter == (SILENCE = DEATH) https://balloon-juice.com/2015/07/19/open-thread-i-am-not-a-member-of-any-organized-political-party/#comment-5409890
Part 2: Strategy: disrupt, enrage, engage https://balloon-juice.com/2015/07/19/open-thread-i-am-not-a-member-of-any-organized-political-party/#comment-5410313
Part 3: Engage them https://balloon-juice.com/2015/07/20/what-i-learned-on-twitter-today/#comment-5411739
Suzanne
I would also note that Tia Oso was a high school classmate of mine, and that we wrote on our school newspaper staff together, and she is very much focused on social justice for all people, not merely herself. And she is brilliant.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@mtiffany:
Elon said on the Huffpolive interview that he had a private meeting scheduled with Sanders and his people. Bernie blew it off when he decided to take his ball and go home. So if anyone is guilty of not engaging, it ain’t Elon.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@mtiffany: Sanders cancelled a private meeting/interview with Elon James White who is a supporter of BLM but had nothing to do with the protest.
Another Holocene Human
This white guy wasn’t silenced:
http://www.dailydot.com/politics/kkk-confederate-flag-protest-sousaphone-trolling/
mtiffany
@msdc:
I’m drawing a parallel with the ACT UP movement of the 80s/90s. #BlackLivesMatter == (SILENCE = DEATH). The strategy was: disrupt, enrage, engage.
After you’ve enraged people with your protest, engage them: Comment above
cokane
@Another Holocene Human: i’m a big fan of the cognitive dissonance in this post
mtiffany
@mtiffany: Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuckitty, fuck, fuck, fuck. Link Wrong
artem1s
@John Cole:
It’s not about race as much as the turn out. If the African American community sits out the race because they have no one they feel comfortable with, then it’s 2014 all over again. The least important thing in both the general and primaries is whatever rainbow ponies each candidate promises. Neither one of them is going to be able to do squat without taking the Senate back. You are right about the Bernie supporters who don’t want to hear this. He can’t carry the Senate. He doesn’t have the money to fight all the voter ID laws and gerrymandering crap in every state and there is no advantage to having him show up at your rally if he’s going to dis your constituents. I’m convinced that half the BS trolls online are the same GOP plants that attacked H in 2008. They don’t want Hillary to get the nomination obviously. H will carry most of the states where the bulk of BS voter live in the general anyway. But the GOP really wants OBA staying home on election day so they can retain the Senate. This will be a HUGE issue in carrying Ohio. If you don’t have good turn out from the AA community in Cuyahoga county then Whoever/Kasich takes Ohio. The GOP can’t win without Ohio. But even that won’t matter to them much if they get to hold the Senate.
msdc
Hi, mtiffany: I’ve been following your comments on this for a couple of days now, though we haven’t spoken directly about it before. I have to say, I don’t see how disruption and especially rage lead to engagement; they’re more likely to produce the opposite in my experience, as people fall back behind battle lines or drop out of the discussion entirely. Nor do I see a whole lot of engagement in the days that have followed Netroots Nation – or rather, what little engagement there is has been drowned in a sea of attempts to dictate who can speak and how they can speak. We’ve got the enraging part down, though.
I think we fundamentally disagree about the productive value of anger, or at least the performance of anger, as a political tool.
This line from your comment above kind of sums up what I find troubling about it.
There is a common sentiment that crops up in progressive politics that people just need to get angry enough – “If you’re not angry you haven’t been paying attention” and all that. But the performance of anger rarely brings about the desired change: if anything it’s psychologically calibrated to get people to shut down and recoil instead of thinking about its cause. “Getting your friends and family angry about it” is just as likely to get them angry at you. To be honest, I feel like such efforts are more about serving the needs of the individual – whether it’s bolstering their self-image or just transferring their anger onto somebody else – than they are about advancing the nominal causes.
You see the parallels to ACT UP, and there’s some validity to that; but I see the parallels to Code Pink, and there’s some validity to that too.
Tyren M
@Brachiator: You are sadly mistaken. Black voters are not the “sit this one out” crew. Too many died for us to do that. Black voters are the D’s most reliable Block. Look it up. Al Franken and Mark Dayton won by barely 300 votes. Where do you think that came from? See who put Terry McAuliffe in office on a down D year. Black women voters. Mitt Romney won 60%+ of White votes. NEXT.
kc
nvr mind. Disengaging.
mtiffany
@msdc:
I see parallels to Code Pink too. But the question isn’t “which parallel is more valid?” The question is: do you want to see change? Do you want to see #BlackLivesMatter? Yes? Great. Don’t want to get angry about it? Fine too. Don’t feel like roping in your friends and family? Fine. Then act. On your own. Act. What I said about contact every elected official that represents you? Do it. Any change they can implement that you think will decrease the violence towards black people and save black lives? Tell them. Demand they do it. If you think demilitarizing the police will help save black lives? Tell them. Demand they demilitatize the police. If you think community-based policing and civilian oversight boards for the police will save black lives? Tell them. Demand they institute community-based policing and civilian oversight boards. Hell, if you think erecting a statue to Kent “I for one, welcome our new insect overlords” Brockman in the town square will help save black lives, then please by all means, tell them and demand they erect that statue.
But when you write, or call, or email, let them know, first thing, FIRST GODDAMNED THING, is that you are contacting them because Black Lives Matter. And that you are holding them accountable for making the changes necessary so that our society is safe for black people.
And just to note: you said you’ve been following my comments for a couple of days. If you can follow my lame, whitesplaining ass on in the comment threads of this two-bit dog and kitty show (Proof of life Cole! Proof of life!) for two motherfucking days, you have time to contact ALL your elected officials.
And no, I don’t expect that the moment you hit SEND to Congressman McGriftyshite, or Mayor McCheezit, or Police Commissioner Velma Butterspoons, that clouds will part, and the sun will beam down, and the heavenly choir will sing and the killings and false arrests and microaggressions and the racism will stop right then. But if you make your voice heard, you will make a difference. The more support that issue has, and the more voters let it be known that they demand it from our society, the easier and politcally safer it becomes for sympathetic public officials to ally themselves with the cause. You will have done something.
And if you read this and think “fuck that, this faggot doesn’t know what he’s talking about,” that’s your right to think it. And if you don’t want to do anything about black people dying when the least you can do is spend time communicating to your public servants rather than reading this blog, welll man, that’s on you. Nothing I can do to make you do it. But I’m not going to let you off the hook, because now that you know what’s going on and that what you can do to help stop it requires so little of you, well then my friend, their deaths are the price of your silence, and that is on you.
But take heart, recall how you said that you don’t think these tactics work? If they didn’t work, would you have read this far, or invested this much time? See. I told you this stuff worked and it does. You’re here. So trust me on this, not being silent works too.
Speak up for them. Now.
Black Lives Matter
msdc
@mtiffany:
Actually, this nicely clarifies what I was talking about. The assumption that anyone who doesn’t agree with us – or does agree with us but doesn’t want to follow the exact course of action we prescribe – must be insufficiently angry, or insufficiently compassionate, or insufficiently informed about the problem until we graciously enlighten them, does not help progressives and it does not help progressive causes. Not one bit.
And it makes for a curious form of “engagement.” Seriously – you find out that I’ve been reading your comments and thinking about them, and your response is to try and chastise me for it?
Think about the incentives that sets up for me and anyone else who’s read this far.
mtiffany
@msdc:
So your feelings about my tactics are more important than other people lives? And if you’re just trolling me, that’s fine too. The longer you engage with me the more likely it is that I’ll get through to you. I’ll plant some seed somewhere in that headof yours and it will nag at you as it grows. If someone other than you reads this and my words get through to them, and they take action, so much the better, mission accomplished. I’ve done what I set out to do.
And hell, if you’re not trolling then maybe continuing to engage you on the issue you might think of a better idea and we can put that idea to use. Or someone else reading might come up with a better idea. Again. Win.
But let me ask you point blank: what’s your idea? What do you think I should be doing? I’m all ears
mtiffany
Okay. Off to have some pie. Thanks, ladies and gentlemen, I’ll be here all week. Try the veal!
Kropadope
@mtiffany: No one is saying that your tactics are more important than people’s lives. That sort of assertion explains the disagreement at a fundamental level. None of us are saying that black lives don’t matter, indeed we want to make progress for racial justice. That our disagreement on tactics is being used by some on the BLM side to paint us as not sympathetic or condescending or perhaps even outright racist is not being fair.
Cervantes
@Suzanne:
Thanks.
Is there a collection of her writings somewhere, or writings about her?
mtiffany
@Kropadope:
That’s good, because that’s not what I said. My question was:
Big difference… glad I could clear up that typo… moving on…
Fantastic. Now what have you done about it? If you’ve been following along, then you should know what I’m going to say next, take action. Do something. As my Aunt Sukie used to say “Pretty words ain’t worth the wind they disappear into if nothing come from ’em after they been spoke.”
Holy shit are you are right about that. On Twitter on Sunday I was subjected to a metric fuck-ton of unfair assumptions and name calling. Whitesplainer, whitesplaining, paternalism, “ally is a verb,” “sorry I didn’t know that the white man was talking,” ‘supposed allie,’ “I wasn’t talking about you when I was calling out racists, but if you’re offended, that’s your conscience calling you out, not me,” and my favorite “are you proud that you’re a racist?” It’s my favorite because whether you answer yes or no, you’re a racist! Ha-ha. Soooo clever.
But as you said “some on the BLM side…“, that’s some, not all, and by no means the majority. Don’t let the trifling, self-important, ain’t-shit-assholes dissuade you from reaching out and connecting and co-operating with the those in the BLM movement who are patient, who are willing to answer your questions and who want more people on board. And that is, I am confident in hypothesizing, the majority of the BLM movement (I don’t have hard statistics from a poll, I’m just operating on my own experience that people that are advocating for a cause usually want more supporters rather than fewer and also want more public support and not less and are therefore, not complete assholes). Are they mad? Yeah? Are they angry? Yeah They have a lot to be angry about: black people are being killed with impunity by the very people who are supposed to protect and serve EVERYONE equally. I’d be mad too, how about you?
But as I have said (how many times now?): that your feelings are hurt or you think you are being treated unfairly is irrelevant. Want to be feel good about yourself and prove that haters wrong? Then do something worth feeling good about and take action to advance the BLM cause if you agree with it. Feelings follow actions. And the only actions I can think of are: contact all the elected officals that represent you and tell them first off Black Lives Matter and then tell them what changes you want to see to make our society safe for black people. Believe that police demilitarization will help. Demand it. Think that a jobs program to repair crumbling infrastrcuture targeted to those communities with the highest black unemployment will help? Demand that. Whatever ideas that you think will advance #BLackLivesMatter that your elected officials can implement is an idea they need to hear. Demand it from them.
And I’m repeating myself again, (but who cares at this point? I have pie and scotch.) The more people who publicly come out in support of BLM the easier it will be for public officials to ally and support that movement without fear of a Fox ‘News’ type ratfucking or the backlash from regressive cousin-fucking racists.
Don’t know what ground is left to cover here. HTH
mtiffany
@mtiffany: Oh shit, too much scotch, not enough pie. I left out part of a sentence. Before some nitpicking troll rolls along and accuses me of — quelle horreur — hypocrisy in addition to my poor spelling and grammar (oh noes! all the bad english writing sins!)
But as I have said (how many times now?): when compared to the violence and mayhem visited on black people in this country on a near daily basis, that your feelings are hurt or you think you are being treated unfairly is irrelevant.
Kropadope
@mtiffany:
You’re right, but it’s hard sometimes.
I try my best, talk to fellow voters and such when the issue comes up. I don’t know very well how to help more. To the extent that institutional racism still exists in MA, it’s far more subtle than, for example, Ferguson.
mtiffany
@mtiffany: NB: Too much typing and boozing leads to errors. To wit:
Wherein any instance of the phrase “my tactics” are found, this phrasing is an error; the correct phrase is “these tactics,” and should be read that way.
Remember kids: drinking and self-righteous commenting don’t mix.