So the road leading to my apartment complex here in the NKY has a joint recruitment center on it (Army, Navy, Air Force) situated between two strip mall centers. It’s a pretty accessible location and at a busy intersection. I pass the center daily on the way to and from work.
For the last week plus, there’s been armed folks ostensibly guarding it from attack.
Yesterday in particular there was a fellow standing in the grass outside the center, very visible from cars, wearing shorts and packing a semi-automatic rifle. Some folks were honking at him in support, most were ignoring him and going about their commute or shopping or whatever.
But it’s very odd to have an armed man, not in any uniform (military or police) in public with a military rifle just standing on a street corner. I didn’t see any police around, nor any of the recruiters (I assume they were inside doing their job, because yesterday it was about 88-90 degrees out at 5:30 PM).
However, everyone was treating it as a perfectly normal occurrence.
I don’t find it normal at all, in fact I thought it was disturbing and outright insane to see this, but arguing with a guy with a rather large rifle is generally not a smart move, car or not.
One day last week there were 4 or 5 people out there at the center, two of them armed with rifles in a very public display, and what looked like their wives or girlfriends with them in folding chairs. One had a cooler with water, so at least they were staying hydrated, I guess.
And yeah, this America in 2015, where citizens on street corners with rifles is the New Goddamn Normal.
That took a grand total of a couple of weeks to happen.
I fully expect to see somebody out there again today when I come home even though it’s supposed to get up to 92 or so this afternoon. They’ll most likely be there again tomorrow. And the next day. And so on.
And we’ll get used to that, too.
A Ghost To Most
I’ll take the under of a week until ‘what could possibly go wrong?’ does.
Ol'Froth
And of course, if someone is intent on causing mayhem, who do you think is going to be the first person killed? Then the badguy will have TWO guns.
debbie
Well, it didn’t even take 24 hours here:
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2015/07/23/recruiting-center-shot-fired.html
Bobby B.
Think of this story from the other end: “In Oregon, dozens of unemployed middle aged gun owners with time on their hands posed for the Medford news crew (who also had time on their hands). We kept the camera angle low so you would appear to be looking up at a mighty warrior with a beer belly and a Civil War t shirt.”
g
It’s so stupid, because it assumes that recruitment centers are some kind of vulnerable, special target, when really, the Chattanooga shooting was the impulse choice of a madman.
So what next? There was a mass shooting at a hair salon in Newport Beach, CA a few years ago that killed more people than Chattanooga. Are we going to have armed defenders at our hair salons? Years ago, there were a rash of mass shootings at post offices. I don’t see armed guards at post offices, do you?
Not one of these supposed defenders is ever going to encounter an attacker. It’s nuts.
Jeffro
I think there was already one accidental shooting at a recruiting station by a numb nuts doing exactly this.
There’s a reason people who know – aka the military – don’t let folks waltz around on base w/ loaded weapons. These are not toys, and it’s just too easy to get wounded or killed.
On a somewhat related note: I’ll be interested to see if any of the major theater chains either start banning weapons or putting in metal detectors (or both). It’s not really data, but a sister-in-law and a couple friends have all declared that they’re not going to movie theaters anymore. (Well, not unless they can go with Rick Perry – then they know they’d be safe)
Mike E
Joint recruitment… is that what the kids are calling it these days?
Interrobang
Perfectly normal, or the age-old American response to things going chaotic: Act Like Nothing’s Wrong?
You folks are masters at creating what Douglas Adams called the “Somebody Else’s Problem field,” so I’d give it even money…
different-church-lady
I just don’t understand how it is that we have more guns than ever in this country, and yet in spite of all that people keep getting shot.
bemused
Don’t these real Americans have jobs to go to, home responsibilities to take care of, need to spend time with their families?
different-church-lady
@Jeffro:
Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here! This is the War Room!
jonas
I’m sure this is doing wonders for this recruitment office’s outreach to Muslims interested in joining the military.
Chris
@Jeffro:
According to the Book of Faces, my wingnut ex-Army uncle is now pissed that they’re not allowing soldiers to walk around armed at all times. Wonder how many of his brethren share his idea.
(Granted, the guy was only ever a peacetime officer – which I’ve always thought explained a hell of a lot of his wingnut pathology. The Army was never more than Boy Scouting with more gadgets for him. Apparently, guns are among these gadgets).
Roger Moore
@A Ghost To Most:
It already has elsewhere.
ruemara
It will never be normal, but that’s why I live in a blue state.
aimai
@jonas: For anyone’s interest in joining the military–first of all, it should be obvious that you can be armed and stand around threatening people without joining, so that cuts out some of the interest. Second of all, if you are young enough that your parents are involved, they are probably too smart to want to walk in past these nutcases. So that cuts out anyone who is heading over there with a sane person for company.
bystander
Ah, yes. Says so much about our Army that it needs random self-appointed vigilantes to protect it. I would think that some of the soldiers would ask the guy to move on, if only because of the insulting connotation.
raven
This ain’t shit. My cousin, Ex-Marine and winger, sent me the video of the news broadcast from San Diego with some bleach hear railing that “we need to send B-2′ bombers and show “Muhhamad” we are not fooling around. We need to kill “them”. How’d that shit work out the last time big boy?
MattF
Speaking of the Road to Hell, Satanists came up with a neat way to discourage the wrong sort of people from attending the opening of their Temple.
ETA: Via jwz.
mtiffany
@different-church-lady:
You don’t understand because you are a commie pinko librul socialist abortofascist homobuttseckser. The answer is of course, moar gunz.
dedc79
And the tilt of this strange nation
And the will to remain for the duration
Waving the flag
Feeling it drag
–Good Intentions Paving Company
raven
@Chris: We had a conex in our company area in Vietnam and you DREW your fucking weapon when you were leaving the fort. Now I realize it wasn’t the bush but the military had the good sense not to let everyone walk arounbd with heat in a fuckin war!
Svensker
Remember the rwnj outrage and fear when a couple of Black Panthers showed up and stood around outside a voting place in Philadelphia. One of the BPs was armed with a walking stick or some such. Wonder why there’s such a different reaction here?
Yeah. I wonder.
C.V. Danes
“We’re not a redneck group. We’re ex-military.”
Awesome.
gelfling545
I thought I read somewhere recently that the various branches of the military had said “please don’t” to these folks & that armed people would be regarded as a potential threat & dealt with by police as the people within the recruiting centers couldn’t read their minds or distinguish good intentions from bad on sight.
Amir Khalid
As I understand, your American military is not best pleased to see armed, self-appointed vigilantes loitering outside its recruitment offices. Perhaps a public statement to that effect is in order.
RSA
@debbie: Wow.
On a related topic, suppose someone did want to shoot up a recruitment center? These morons have created a situation in which the perpetrator can walk right up to the place, gun in plain view, without looking out of place. Looking like a dangerous idiot, sure, but not a murderer.
Cermet
Soylent Green will turn out to be prophetic in many ways
MattF
@RSA: Well, yes. Guns + stupid = bullets in places they’re not supposed to be.
Keith G
@Jeffro:
So, are they also avoiding, churches, their work place, and any male former romantic interests?
What they seem to share with the non compos mentis posse is a fairly common inability to correctly assess risk.
Robert M.
(Oops, ninja’ed.)
@debbie:
From the linked article, in case you needed any additional evidence that our country is literally insane on this issue:
That is, it’s not the first time this particular moron has accidentally fired his AR-15 in public.
Amir Khalid
Not just in America:
Here’s a white American hunter winning friends in Zimbabwe.
From the Telegraph‘s story:
A Ghost To Most
@Roger Moore:
Yes, I am aware. I was referring to the specific location Zandar referred to.
Iowa Old Lady
I was born and raised in the city of Detroit, and lived most of my life in that area. The sight of a gun makes my heart race. It is not something I accept as just normal.
And no rational person would. I have a friend in a federal law enforcement job that allows and encourages her to fly armed. I travel with her sometimes and she and I both treat that gun as a pain. She can’t leave it anywhere, including locked in a hotel safe. She says she sees it like the egg that high school kids are sometimes made to carry around to illustrate what it’s like to have a baby. She looks forward to the day she can turn it in.
Chris Gerrib
Well, in reality, what will happen is after a couple more weeks with no attacks on recruiting stations and some nice hot weather is that these “guards” will find something else to do.
Bobby B.
@C.V. Danes: Draft-dodging rednecks always think of themselves as “military”. always wearing camo at the putsch.
Gin & Tonic
@Keith G: Speaking of risk assessment, I read yesterday that more people are killed by coconuts falling on their heads than from being eaten by sharks.
Belafon
I prefer wording the sentence as “the road to hell is paved with personal agendas.” Which is exactly what these people are attempting to do. I bet I could get the same results as them by putting a small rock in front of every recruiting office.
I also read somewhere that the Navy has announced that none of its recruiters will go to a place with armed civilian “guards.”
Derelict
@RSA:
This is the aspect they simply do not consider. When we have made society conditioned to not question the sight of someone walking around ANYWHERE with a high-powered semi-auto rifle and body armor, we’ve set the stage for any lunatic (or group of lunatics) to converge on crowded public spaces without any intervention until they start shooting.
In Rick Perry’s fantasy land, 50 individuals toting semi-auto rifles and handguns could show up at the Dallas Cowboys game. They’d just be your normal everyday patriots right up until the moment they started shooting.
MomSense
@RSA:
Exactly. The question that cannot be answered is how to tell the difference between a “good guy” with a gun and a “bad guy” with a gun.
dedc79
@Amir Khalid: Thanks for ruining my day/week. I wish I could un-see those photos, but it’s probably better to be confronted with it.
Note that the White House issued a rule cracking down on the ivory trade in the US. That’s no help to the lions, but it will of some help to elephants, which are in pretty desperate straights these days because of poaching.
From another story on the subject that was published yesterday, it sounds like the Germans and Spaniards have their share of assholes who kill endangered African species for fun too. The Chinese market is driving a lot of it, but there are some encouraging signs there too.
kindness
It would be curious to see what would happen if one were to secretly light a pack of firecrakers behind the gun humpers. I mean, do it and run for cover as they probably would let loose with some of their own.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
Doesn’t this kind of stuff make it easier for the eventual mass murderer to blend in until he decides to unload his clip? I mean, if walking around with a semi-automatic rifle is “normal” then that guy is going to look perfectly normal, until he starts shooting that is.
Steve From Antioch
This post encapsulates what motivates much of the gun control opponents: the thought of icky guns gives them the fantods.
Germy Shoemangler
Water? C’mon, there’s got to be more than a couple of PBRs in there. Or some coors lites, at the very least.
rikyrah
Have not seen anything about the response from Latinos of Jeb basically saying that he doesn’t support a path to citizenship for the undocumented.
Oh, you can stay, work, pay taxes, but you’ll never be a citizen.
Am I the only one looking side eye at this?
But, because he said it in Frank Luntz-approved ‘respectful’ language, it’s supposed to be all good?
Belafon
@MomSense: I believe the good guys wear crocs or crusade costumes. I can’t get on twitter, but there were pictures of actual people doing those things.
Belafon
@Steve From Antioch: You mean the fact that it’s hard to tell the good guys from the bad ones?
Betty Cracker
@kindness: Nah, you wouldn’t want to light the fuse and count on being able to run away fast enough. Light a cigarette, break off the filter, insert the fuse in the unlit end and then walk away at a leisurely pace.*
*Obviously, I’m kidding — such a stunt could get an innocent bystander killed. Plus, no one should smoke!
dexwood
The local news video of the the armed assholes who showed up to “protect” the recruiting office in the NW section of my state troubled me because the men looked so much like the guys represented in videos from around the country – creatures from the ankle-deep end of the gene pool. It bothered me, too, because of how they were so purely eating up the attention they were getting from other assholes who showed up to “thank” them. Low self-esteem, weapons, puffed up egos. Nope, nothing wrong with that combination. I once heard someone say the opposite of good is a good intention.
MomSense
@Belafon:
I think they carry Oreos while shopping at Target with their assault rifles.
Roger Moore
@MomSense:
It can be answered; they’re just to embarrassed to admit that the answer is “skin color and religious beliefs”.
mtiffany
@kindness:
Better to do that sort of thing at an ammosexual pro-gun rally. Less potential for innocents to get caught in the cross fire.
White Trash Liberal
I think the NRA and ALEC long game is the occupation of the US, neighborhood by neighborhood through intimidation.
Betty Cracker
@Steve From Antioch: Nope. The thought of having to step over a dead coworker’s brains again after an office massacre gives me the vapors. It’s the gun nuts who seem sexually fixated on the icky metal bits.
FlipYrWhig
@Amir Khalid:
But isn’t part of the reason for the vigilante squads a belief (‘rumor’ might be a better word) that Obama has ordered the pussification of the American military male? Any statement to that effect would only confirm their most feverish fears.
Steve From Antioch
fact and reason are the best basis for laws
Jeffro
@Keith G: Dude, this whole country is pretty bad at assessing risk!
“I ain’t gettin’ on that plane, you crazy? I’m gonna drive instead…”
“I ain’t goin’ out in the ocean, there’s sharks out there, haven’t you been following the news? No sir, I’m gonna sit here, tan, and have another cigarette…”
I think the theater shootings register with these 3 folks more because they don’t really fear workplace shootings, they don’t have any actively loony exes, and the last church shooting was racially motivated. But they do go to the movies, and it’s not hard to envision yourself sitting there in the dark, wondering if some person in a row behind you’s going to open up at any time.
FlipYrWhig
@Steve From Antioch: Am I missing something, or did you mean to say “proponents” instead of “opponents”?
Steve From Antioch
@Jeffro: exactly. That’s why there were probably 3 or 4 people killed this weekend in Chicago -like there is every weekend- but there is nary a peep about that ongoing slaughter on most of the inter webs.
White Trash Liberal
@Steve From Antioch:
The thought open carry patriots patrolling schools, movie theaters, recruiting stations doesn’t give me the fantods. It gives me the sign that neighborhoods are being turned into war zones. Zones without clear cut escalation of force procedures.
Where are the clearing barrels? What emergency procedures are in place? What if a dreaded mooslim exercises their right and open carries?
For me, it raises inevitable military questions that logically lead me to the conclusion that this is a military action. And I won’t stand to live in occupied territory where ammosexuals who breathe hate radio are the occupying force. That leads to something something Godwin.
Steve From Antioch
@FlipYrWhig: yes a typo.
boatboy_srq
The oddest part of all this for me is that the same people who seem perfectly OK with putting troops in harm’s way without the proper equipment, perfectly OK with outsourcing the wetwork to people with neither the command structure nor the obligation to follow DoD orders (Custer Battles / Blackwater), perfectly OK with spending hundreds of billions (over time) on defense boondoggles (F-35) and underfunding basic necessity items (armored Humvees, , and perfectly OK with scr3wing with troops’ post-service support once they come home with injuries, PTSD etc to foreclosed homes etc, are all misty-eyed about the “recruits” and want to protect them.
White Trash Liberal
@Steve From Antioch:
Misdirection. Classic ammosexual rhetoric.
bemused
@Steve From Antioch:
I’ve lived decades in rural, deer hunting country and when the two week deer hunting season starts, we use extra caution outside particularly if we can hear hunters shooting. We don’t take walks in the woods with our dogs and keep them close and wear orange when outside on our property. Heck, I even wear orange going down the drive to our mailbox. Most hunters here are responsible but there is the possible accidental firing or idiot hunters.
I don’t see the point of people walking around armed just for fun or because they are afraid or trying to look macho. I haven’t seen anybody walking around armed unless they are hunting in my area but if I do, I’m heading in the opposite direction pronto. Nothing good can come of it imo.
White Trash Liberal
@boatboy_srq:
As that PTSD suffering veteran, I support this message.
The last thing I want is armed vigilantes patrolling the streets to keep me safe. Without a commander, they are a guerilla force.
Keith G
@Jeffro:
That has probably happened more times than any of us would like to know.
boatboy_srq
@White Trash Liberal: There’s a part of me that looks at the arming of Ahmurrca and sees the Confederatists’ latest push to be able to put niCLANGs in their place (namely, a pine box in a shallow grave if they step out of line and get uppity), and if a few Moooosluhms get whacked along the way they had it coming as well. It goes along with the suspicion that the whingeing about Jade Helm and Gummint Takeover stems from the assumption that all those citified niCLANGs are coming to take Righteous Xtian Caucasian countryvolk’s land/cattle/daughters/whatever.
schrodinger's cat
Most normal people are now going to avoid these recruiting centers like the plague. Civilians parading their guns around, do not want.
Steve From Antioch
@White Trash Liberal: yes because what’s important isn’t the dead 3 or 4 Chicagoans, it’s how people ***feel*** about seeing people with guns.
Sod off, wanker.
the Conster
So the fucking asshole who killed Cecil the lion in Africa is an American dentist who paid $55,000. I’d kill that motherfucker if I could for free.
NorthLeft12
I wonder why someone has not yelled at these guys “Get a job, you bums!!” Oh yeah,….big guns and rifles and [most likely] low IQ and quick temper.
Steve From Antioch
@bemused: I agree the recruiting station guardians are silly.
Tommy T
Just throw a string of lit firecrackers out as you drive by.
Problem solved.
Gin & Tonic
@bemused: I haven’t seen anybody walking around armed unless they are hunting in my area but if I do, I’m heading in the opposite direction pronto.
If I see somebody walking around openly with a firearm and it’s not hunting season or they’re not wearing a uniform, I’m calling 911. But then I don’t live in a stupid state.
Belafon
@Steve From Antioch: Which law is it that says that civilians are authorized to protect recruiting stations?
schrodinger's cat
@the Conster: Aren’t lions an endangered species, is it even legal to kill them?
the Conster
@schrodinger’s cat:
Apparently not. I’m so angry I can’t even bear to read the article with the details. Apparently was lured out of the safety of the conservation area, where Cecil was comfortable seeing people. Brave, brave guy. #WalterPalmer. trending on Twitter – hope the guy’s life is made a living fucking hell.
Chyron HR
@Steve From Antioch:
“You don’t get to decide how many guns I need, but I get to decide how many family members you have,” perfectly encapsulate why gun owners need to be institutionalized.
different-church-lady
@Jeffro:
But you see, the thing about cigarettes is that there’s no “risk” to assess; at this point we pretty much know exactly what’s going to happen, and yet people go ahead and do it anyway.
Amir Khalid
@the Conster:
I am as appalled as you. In fact, I believe all hunting for sport should be illegal. If you’re not actually hunting for subsistence — as wild predators do, and as only a relatively few humans still do — or for self-defence, you shouldn’t be hunting at all.
Steve From Antioch
@Chyron HR: why not just kill them all? Institutionalizing them all sounds expensive.
boatboy_srq
@Keith G: We’re seeing classic risk-mitigation-according-to-class trends. Gated communities are multiplying; telework is becoming a norm; home security systems complete with cameras and remote monitoring are selling like hotcakes; the cinema is dying and Netflix is booming; even the SUV as a “safe” vehicle supplanting the family wagon points to the trend. Antisocialization, driven in part by media-exacerbated fear of violence, is on the rise. And the only ones able to fortify sufficiently are the wealthy, the ruralized and those willing to forego social contacts and basic necessities so they can build makeshift bunkers and panic rooms.
schrodinger's cat
@the Conster: I know for sure that the Asiatic lion is on endangered list, perhaps the African lion is not.
the Conster
@Amir Khalid:
I have a hard time killing annoying bugs – if I can let them out, I will. I will let spiders hang around, if they’re not the big dangerous biting kind. The idea of hunting for “sport”, if you can even call it that, is beyond my ability to comprehend. It’s for cowards and bullies.
ETA: Twitter tells me what he did was poaching, so, he’s toast. Cecil was found decapitated outside the park.
Steve From Antioch
@Amir Khalid: I eat everything I kill, but I could afford to buy factory farmed meat if I want. So I guess no hunting for me, eh?
bemused
@Gin & Tonic:
I would too if I didn’t recognize who it was unlike a neighbor we knew well. Unless it is deer, partridge or other hunting season here, seeing someone armed walking on highway in front our home would catch our attention, make us wonder why. We just don’t see that here.
Belafon
@Steve From Antioch: That’s exactly why I don’t hunt. What’s the point?
Amir Khalid
@Steve From Antioch:
Yep.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@White Trash Liberal: Hell, even with a commander, they’re a guerilla force, given the “commanders” they are likely to have. And that’s of course aside from the fact that they aren’t US military.
gbear
Can they get used to a random cherry bomb going off now and then while they’re on guard?
Bringing their wives and girlfriends along to keep them company as they stand guard is just too disconnected to comprehend. “We think someone might attack the center so come hang out with us. It’ll be fun and we’ll be patriots”.
boatboy_srq
@the Conster: Rich. American. Dentist. Pretty toxic mix. Not at all surprising. Betcha if Zimbabwe goes after him, he’ll whine and cry to Washington for protection – the same Washington he probably wants to abolish and replace with a more “federated” not-so-big-gummint.
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: You mean easier than being able to actively participate in a hate group, carry racist/sexist writings in public, wear racist/sexist paraphernalia in public without pushback, listen to hate-filled bile on the airwaves and watch it on broadcasts without censure and without warnings, and vote for candidates that do and say similar things? We’re dangerously close to the point where the hate is normalized and the weaponry has become mere wardrobe.
srv
You people can be sure of one thing, these heroic Americans serving on the front lines of your community aren’t cuckservatives.
ms_canadada
“And we’ll get used to that, too.”
Not if they’re people of color.
bemused
@gbear:
Why not bring their kids too, make it a fun family day!
catclub
@g:
and where else would we get bare arms but at a hair salon?
shell
We“re moving into a 4-5 day heat wave. That might be enough.
Botsplainer
OT, but you KNEW in your heart it wasn’t a Spaniard. You hoped it was, but deep down, you fucking knew it.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jul/28/killer-of-cecil-the-lion-was-american-zimbabwe-officials-claim
? Martin
@Gin & Tonic:
This times a zillion. Seriously, call 911 every. fucking. time.
How the fuck is anyone supposed to even identify a threat if pulling out a semi-automatic weapon isn’t considered threatening?
Botsplainer
More:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zimbabwe/11767119/Cecil-the-lions-killer-revealed-as-American-dentist.html
Let all of them share a cell in a Zimbabwe prison, after first cutting off their fucking fingers so they can never fucking hunt again.
Jeffro
OT but in case your nearest wingnut friend’s head explodes: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/barack-obama-president-third-term
Ah, I can hear their gibberish already bubbling up over this one…or should I say, That One?
schrodinger's cat
@Jeffro: He is trolling them! I can hear wingnut head explosions.
Admiral_Komack
Totally OT:
White House: We won’t pardon Snowden
The White House is standing by its refusal to pardon government leaker Edward Snowden.
Instead, it says, the former contractor should return to the U.S. and “accept the consequences of his actions.”
“He should come home to the United States, and be judged by a jury of his peers — not hide behind the cover of an authoritarian regime,” White House counterterrorism advisor Lisa Monaco said in response to a petition about Snowden on Tuesday.
http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/249412-white-house-we-wont-pardon-snowden?post_id=949536705108673_949536701775340#_=_
boatboy_srq
@the Conster: The Telegraph has the gory details. Apparently Palmer (who like to hunt with a bow at least as much as with a gun) got his guides to do some fancy footwork and lure Cecil outside the park – and once outside Palmer used his bow, which not only is the trademark of someone not wanting to attract attention but didn’t kill Cecil so after nearly an hour Cecil was shot. Then the lion was skinned and the skin dragged back to Ahmurrca (Fvckyeah) as a(nother) trophy. Palmer might as well have killed the entire pride: the cubs are toast.
Palmer sounds like a real piece’o’work:
Culture of Truth
So what do the guys do if someone approaches the recruitment center carrying a gun? Do they protect the center and shoot, or welcome a brother in arms? Is their reaction based on skin color, or something else?
the Conster
@boatboy_srq:
He should be fed to those cubs.
Mandalay
@Jeffro: Heh! Definitely head-exploding words:
Presidents don’t come any better than That One.
Gin & Tonic
@boatboy_srq: How did he clear US Customs with a fresh lion skin?
muddy
@Amir Khalid: We hunt to keep the deer etc populations in check in my area. Their habitat has been changed by human interference, and the population is closely monitored. If you don’t kill a certain number of deer then they die of starvation next winter here.
Last year 13,000 deer were harvested by various means (bow, rifle, muzzle loader have differing season dates). The Fish and Game department was still on the news this week saying how last winter was so harsh they expected to find more corpses this year than usual.
They change the numbers season to season, sometimes there are doe permits, sometimes spike horns, sometimes only fully antlered are legal to shoot. If the population gets too high, they open the doe season. If populations take a hit, then only antlered.
Saying no hunting of deer would only mean deer dying in starvation or being hit by cars and no one eats the meat. What’s the purpose of that? Buying meat in the supermarket is WAY more cruel to animals, if that’s the part you care about.
Culture of Truth
I bet Zimbabwe prisons are a fun place for a white American dentist who tortured a source of national pride for fun.
Amir Khalid
@Botsplainer:
Ahem. If I may draw your attention to my comment #32 upthread …
Botsplainer
@Culture of Truth:
I hope he’s still there. If not, I think I enjoy the notion that the extradition request will be coming to the Obama Administration, which will duly turn his ass over, treaty or not. I’m sure the Zimbabwe prison will be lots of fun.
Gin & Tonic
@Amir Khalid: In some areas of the US, the white-tailed deer population can’t be managed, practically, in any way other than hunting. Still not ideal from an evolutionary perspective, since it’s the healthiest specimens that are most desirable to hunters, but suburban homeowners are also not terribly fond of coyotes and wolves.
Botsplainer
@Amir Khalid:
You beat me to it. I was in a frothy rage.
the Conster
@Botsplainer:
I’m so angry I could kill that motherfucker with my bare hands.
Roger Moore
@muddy:
And I assume that the logical solution- reintroducing natural predators- is not considered a viable option.
Mandalay
@boatboy_srq:
It was actually even worse than that:
White Trash Liberal
@srv:
Boom.
There it is. Front lines of our communities.
The military language adapted to US soil.
Fuck you, fascist.
bemused
@Roger Moore:
Wolves. MN allowed wolf hunting and trapping which has been a very contentious issue. We have a lot of wolf supporters and rabid wolf haters here.
Botsplainer
So I went and dived at this place last week. This is not my video (my camera isn’t great), but it is short and nicely representative of the experience. I kept turning off my light to experience the dark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYinau4GFxo
Amir Khalid
@Roger Moore:
From my understanding of the history, one of the traditional objections to the reintroduction of, say, wolves is that natural predators don’t distinguish between the excess deer population and animals that are human property i.e. livestock. In fact, it was cattle and sheep ranchers who were all for eliminating wolves and lions in America over the last couple of centuries, wasn’t it?
Roger Moore
@Gin & Tonic:
FWIW, coyotes are not much of a threat to deer; they mostly focus on smaller prey. If you want a deer-eating machine, the best bet is a mountain lion.
White Trash Liberal
@Steve From Antioch:
Mhmm and you only give a shit about these dead Chicagoans when you can use them as camouflage to disguise your fascist gun humping.
muddy
@Roger Moore: No it is not considered to be a viable option. Nor particularly logical. There have not been wolves here in well over 100 years and they are not considered to be a local species. This is a farming area, not wilderness. The wolves would be much more likely to go after livestock (easy) than deer (hard to catch).
If the deer population is at unnatural levels due to the patterns of human interference with the landscape. There are more “edges” to woods now than naturally. Deer breed to this, but then the winter is too severe and there is not enough food for them to eat.
People here also don’t go wanking about in public with their guns, so that’s not a side issue.
Botsplainer
@the Conster:
With luck, some suitably unbalanced Earth-First types can find his residence and liberate his prized trophy collection into a bonfire.
There has to be a price.
Roger Moore
@Amir Khalid:
Where I live, it’s pets that people are more worried about than farm livestock, but worries about predators going after other animals is most definitely a worry. There’s also some vastly overblown fear about them killing humans.
muddy
I can see vegans being grossed out by hunting. If you eat meat at all, it’s just silly. The animal shot in the woods has a lot better life until harvesting than your supermarket meat ever had.
Betty Cracker
@Botsplainer: People are absolutely torching his business social media accounts. Damage to the brand isn’t a sufficient price, but it’s one he’s paying.
Botsplainer
Walter’s website appears to be down, and his Yelp page is trashed. The internet is beginning to accomplish its’ revenge.
C.V. Danes
The thing is, these people are not deputized. If one of these yahoos shoots someone, it’s assult with intent to kill. If someone dies, it’s murder. They may eventually get off through stand your ground laws, but there will still be a trial.
Betty Cracker
@White Trash Liberal: Yeah, the “what about the people getting killed in Chicago, hmmm, hmmm?” argument is the sure sign of a bullshitter who wants to derail a discussion, closely aligned with “what about black on black crime?” in response to the BLM protests.
Amir Khalid
@muddy:
The solution to that problem is surely to treat livestock humanely, rather than to kill a wild animal without real need.
Botsplainer
@muddy:
I don’t have a problem with hunting. I’ve hunted in the past (too lazy now), but eating what you kill is appropriate. Trophy hunters, however, are raging assholes who are simply doing a Dexter thing.
muddy
@Amir Khalid: Like that’s going to happen.
ETA: I personally only purchase local meat (includes chicken etc) from small farms where I know they have a nice life and a humane end. Besides the moral issue, it tastes better and is better for you.
But America in general is run on factory meat, and I don’t see that changing.
bemused
@muddy:
Venison has to be more healthy considering their diet, all natural. We don’t hunt because we don’t care for venison. Wild game is an acquired taste which most hunters grew up eating from childhood. People always say it’s how you butcher the deer and cook it but we just never developed a taste for venison.
dedc79
@muddy: Let’s act to prevent cruelty to livestock and trophy hunting both, rather than use one as an excuse not to tackle the other.
Omnes Omnibus
@Roger Moore: And the mountain lions appear to be vacationing in Milwaukee right now.
shell
@Botsplainer: (Using a Mr. Burns-type voice) Excellent!
Belafon
@muddy: Trying to figure out where the conversation turned to the ickiness of hunting.
muddy
@Botsplainer: Indeed. The rule at my house is: You shoot it, you eat it. And we eat every bit of it, even cooking down the bones to mash up for dog food. I don’t buy what I call “mean meat” for my pets either.
At age 10 my son was horrified when he brought in a frog he shot with his bb gun, and I began to detail to him how this was to be cleaned and readied for the pan. Yes, even a frog counts, kid. You shot it. I was lengthy and thorough in my description of the frog prep. He was really upset and at the very end I relented and said he didn’t have to eat it THIS ONE TIME. He learned that lesson thoroughly. Never did it again and took against those who did.
I know guys who go out to hunt and are unsuccessful, then will shoot birdies on their way out of the woods in frustration. I tell them in their faces that they are assholes. And my son tells them they must not have had a strict mom who taught them how to act right. ;-)
Gin & Tonic
@Amir Khalid: As muddy said, if hunters don’t kill the deer, they starve to death in the winter.
White Trash Liberal
@Belafon:
Gun discussions always turn into safe havens for gun enthusiasts to preen. Whether it is hunting, or tech spec talk or some other variation. In my mind, it smacks of derailment, but I am by choice not a member of the white gun club.
muddy
@Belafon:
That was the initial statement from Amir Khalid at #80.
Roger Moore
@Omnes Omnibus:
I hadn’t heard about that. Is there a cougar convention in Milwaukee right now? Are they targeting the Bucks?
Botsplainer
@Gin & Tonic:
Not only do they starve to death, they become a serious traffic hazard. I very nearly spun out on the interstate after hitting one with a heavy sedan several years ago – she shattered the windshield, dented the crap out of the side and ripped off the side mirror. One of my oldest daughter’s friends didn’t fare so well – both she and her passenger died in the consequent wreck after hitting one on the same stretch of road.
muddy
@Gin & Tonic: Or if predators were introduced, they would kill the deer.
Dead deer still being eaten.
different-church-lady
@Mandalay:
Really. What a surprise. Nobody would have noticed if they hadn’t said anything.
bemused
@Amir Khalid:
There have been incidents of wolves killing farm animals and family dogs. We have friends with no farm animals that had just let out their dog last winter and a wolf attacked it. Wolf was on top of the dog reaching for it’s neck when yelling scared it off. That isn’t that common and there could have been something physically or something else wrong with that wolf. Sometimes the DNR would make an exception for killing problem wolves when the federal wolf protection was on.
We have some extreme wolf haters here. They talk about wolves as if they were the most evil creatures on earth and want to kill and maim every one of them. Grown men terrified of wolves. There are anti-wolf websites with photos that would make you sick to see.
different-church-lady
@muddy:
Solve two problems at once: introduce lions into the United States.
Betty Cracker
@Omnes Omnibus: It needs to get over to the Twin Cities and eat that asshole dentist!
Botsplainer
@muddy:
I know the coyotes will take fawn – I found half of one next to the house a couple of years ago. Don’t think they could handle a mature adult.
Hell, I had a buck hissing at me and the dog the year before last. Neither of us liked the way he was addressing us, and hightailed it indoors.
muddy
@Botsplainer: I was not speaking of coyotes, who are not the natural predators of deer. Aside from fawns as you say. I was reading about coyotes and half the time they eat lizards, mince and other tinies.
If someone speaks of introducing a deer predator, it means wolves.
gbear
The lion-killing dentist is the top story on the Mpls StarTribune’s website. The dentist is disputing the story but it doesn’t sound like life is going to be pleasant for him anymore. Good.
muddy
@White Trash Liberal: “The white gun club”? That’s racist, I know people both black and brown who hunt?
I am not a “gun enthusiast”. It is a tool. What tool do they use to kill factory farmed animals?
Personally I think guns should have like cars do. License and registration that has to be updated yearly. Passing a test of competency. Liability insurance for mishaps, etc.
And background checks, not to be avoided by going to a gun show or getting it from a friend. Regardless where you got your car you still have to do all the legalities.
Roger Moore
@muddy:
Or cougar/puma/catamount/painter/mountain lions.
muddy
@Roger Moore: There have not been catamounts here for a very long time either. And again, would be going for livestock before they bothered with swift running deer.
Why is it okay for an imported cat to eat a deer, but a human who lives here cannot?
Like the catamounts or wolves, humans are animals killing and eating other animals. This is what we are evolved to do. Unless you are vegan I just can’t get the difference.
Omnes Omnibus
@Roger Moore: No one knows.
bemused
@gbear:
It will be tough to convince people that there was “obvious misreporting” about the lion when he had previously poached a bear in Wisconsin.
different-church-lady
@White Trash Liberal: I get that Steve isn’t exactly a beloved commenter, but I read it as “Shouldn’t we also care about dead Chicagoans?”
Add to that the odds those three deaths involved guns…
White Trash Liberal
@muddy:
Nah, it’s not racist. But I appreciate your indignation. You have only derailed this thread in pursuit of an off-topic hunting discussion.
You may not personally be an ammosexual. But the aammosexual movement is most certainly and identifiably a white power movement. And gun culture in this country tacitly serves this movement.
Part of this culture is how every discussion about guns becomes a safe haven for gun owners to get technical. This is an honest to goodness corrolary to Godwin.
muddy
@White Trash Liberal: Fuck you.
gene108
@Betty Cracker:
I always found comments about Black on White crime and/or Black on Black crime TO MISS THE POINT.
White people have killed black people with impunity from any consequences.
The black guy, who killed the white guy was probably arrested and if found guilty, serving a lengthy prison sentence.
Same for black-on-black crime.
It’s not just people getting killed. It’s the killers killing with impunity.
gbear
@bemused: He’s that guy? Wasn’t that bear basically raised in captivity?
different-church-lady
@gene108:
Hell, that’s nothin’ — we got an entire recent history of the black guys who didn’t kill the white guys serving lengthy prison sentences to deal with.
Gin & Tonic
@bemused: I’ve seen a photo of him with a dead rhinoceros, too.
White Trash Liberal
@different-church-lady:
Steve regularly squirts ink into 2nd amendment threads. For me, his benefit of the doubt has long expired.
Of course, I care about the dead. I care about reforming and enforcing gun licensing to help prevent needless death. I have skin in the game because I have lost brothers in service to suicide by gun. Using the concept of death in Chicago to imply liberals only care about guns as a bellyfeel is obfuscation.
White Trash Liberal
@muddy:
Physician, heal thyself.
Gin & Tonic
@White Trash Liberal: Hunting was brought into this discussion by Amir Khalid, not muddy.
I do not hunt and have never owned a firearm, but I live in an area of the country where I see the necessity of wildlife management, including hunting.
muddy
@Gin & Tonic: Thank you.
bemused
@gbear:
It was in the Mpls Trib story. Killed the bear 40 miles from permitted area and then moved bear to a registration station in permitted area. What a guy.
How do people get these kinds of obsessions that they will break the law to feed their kill hoarding hunger? A very expensive obsession too. $54,000 to kill a lion.
different-church-lady
@bemused: The additional sad part being that money came from people who needed to spend vast amounts to get their teeth fixed.
bemused
@Gin & Tonic:
I’ve also seen photos of Donald Trump’s two sons with their kills from Safari big game hunts.
bemused
@different-church-lady:
No doubt cosmetic dentistry is lucrative.
White Trash Liberal
@Gin & Tonic:
I get that. It was a group effort.
Doesn’t change what I observe.
If every discussion about finance reform devolved into a discussion about investment strategies and portfolio comparisons, I’d point that out too.
This is how privilege operates and infiltrates culture. And guns are an even more privileged commodity than investments. At least some banks can be sued and pay out damages.
different-church-lady
@bemused: Oh, wait, he specialized in cosmetic? Feed him to the wolves.
Personally I wouldn’t object if all the creatures came down out of the mountains and ate us all.
muddy
@White Trash Liberal: Must have missed the part where I called for a bunch of laws about guns, including liability insurance.
There are no gun “accidents” only improper usage. And people ought to pay the price for their incompetence.
bemused
@different-church-lady:
That’s the impression I got from checking out the practice website but he could be correcting legit dental issues as well as prettying up smiles.
Richard Bottoms
Only if you choose to live among the hillbillies.
It’s sky high expensive to live in California, but every time I read about open carry lunatics or hear elected leaders in flyover country kowtowing to them I’m grateful I’ve held it together and stayed out here.
Fuck the South, the hell with Indiana, Ohio, Idaho, Kentucky or any place else religious fanatics control the government. Let them have their pig farms, chemical plants and fracking induced earthquakes.
Big Picture Pathologist
@Steve From Antioch:
Only a dumbass completely devoid of facts and reason would ever conclude that making sure that the violence-prone around us should have easy accessibility to high-powered weapons.
Now do you undunderstand why the fact-and-reason based people on this blog think that in a brain transplant between you and a houseplant that you would be getting the better end of the deal?
muddy
@White Trash Liberal:
A: not a safe haven, more people were against hunting than for in this thread, and in this site in my experience.
B: gun discussions ought include a different points of view from other liberals at least. Otherwise you are just sitting there stroking it. Not stroking a gun, because obviously that would be so gross, evil and racist. But stroking it nonetheless if you can’t bear to hear another opinion.
C: this is a discussion about guns, thus discussion of guns is not derailing. Saying stupid shit like, “you called it a clip not a magazine” is derailing. Saying if everyone had guns all the time it would be safe is derailing.
I am simply telling you about the responsible use of guns in my area after someone else brought it up. If anyone thinks this topic is just purely binary (guns vs. no guns at all) they are kidding themselves.
Richard Bottoms
All this discussion is moot until the Democrats control all three branches of government again.
boatboy_srq
@Gin & Tonic: How did he get into a spot outside the park with guides and bait to shoot the lion? All it takes is knowing how much to pay whom.
boatboy_srq
@Mandalay: Interesting. The Telegraph article had them following Cecil for 40 minutes before shooting.
Paul in KY
@Ol’Froth: Oh, that’s just fallacious reasoning. Your average Commie/facist muslimer is in such a religious fervor to attack our brave troops that he won’t even notice the pasty white guy in flip flops & with a AK-47 standing outside.
Paul in KY
@bemused: It gets them out of mom’s basement. Believe me, she’s glad they are giving her some quality time.
Paul in KY
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: Good thinking there, except them muslimers all look swarthy & have long scraggly beards. They’re too stupid to try & blend in.
Hope none of them are reading this. Tis post should be considered CONFIDENTIAL.
dogwood
@muddy: We know that issues of race and class divide this country, but central to so many things that have us talking past each other is the rural/urban divide. I live in rural America where many people hunt. As popular as hunting is in my community of 40,000, I’d still hazard a guess that the majority of people don’t hunt, or hunted when they were younger and gave it up. Nonetheless, families with gardens the size of Kansas and elk in the freezer are not rare by any means. Toleration for libertarian kooks is also higher here, because the neighborhoods where they live tend toward large lots, and if a nut decides he don’t need no city permit to do some wiring, when it all goes bad, his neighbors are unlikely to be affected.
muddy
@dogwood: Yah, different in the country. I was pretty gobsmacked to hear that when I put food on the table I am really being racist.
People don’t march about waving guns here. It’s not tolerated by society. Even the rabid gun nuts know not to do it because there would be total condemnation, including from the gun nuts – they don’t like that shit because they think it makes them look bad and then don’t want to be lumped in with the show-off irresponsible ones.
Another Holocene Human
@rikyrah: http://www.latintimes.com/jeb-bush-exactly-unpopular-among-latinos-mitt-romney-according-univision-329946
Apparently any documented status is better than none when discussing GOP pols.
You’re right, though, guest workers is bad for a whole host of reasons.
Another Holocene Human
@Keith G: One upon a time, opening up in the darkened movie theater meant your pants, dammit!
I want my country back!
David Evans
@Gin & Tonic: If only they had had shotguns with which to destroy the falling coconuts.