I’d been avoiding taking Thurston to pet training classes (we went to the first one) and I finally got around to rescheduling with another cohort. There was a pitbull in the class I was in, and it was only 30 lbs and sweet and nice, but I just didn’t want to be around it. So we are going to start with another cohort in a couple weeks with no pits. Then, I found some of Tunch’s toys and just generally lashed out at the world on twitter about pit bulls. Yeah, your pit bull is nice and not all pit bulls are bad, but I look at them as the responsible gun owner of dogs. They’re perfectly harmless until you leave it out on the nightstand accidentally and it kills your kid. Nothing you can say is going to dissuade me of this opinion, so don’t even bother trying. I recognize people’s right to own them, but that doesn’t mean I have to be around the damned things or say nice things about them. I don’t keep guns in my house or hang around with people (except for a limited few people who I very much trust) who own guns when there will be guns around. Guns are for killing people and living things and I don’t want that in my life. So there.
On a lighter note, here is my mother’s dog Ginny making sure you understand that NONE OF THE TOYS ARE YOURS BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL HERS:
And here are Thurston and Lily taking a nap behind me this afternoon on the couch:
The At Midnight hashtag is #RuinaWestern, and all I have is “Two Mullets for Sister Sarah” and “The Good, the Bad, and the Moderately Unattractive.”
Roger Moore
Twenty-seven brides for seven brothers, a Mormon western.
Juju
All I can come up with is “David Cassidy and the Sundance Kid”.
FlipYrWhig
Fistful of Dullards.
As opposed to the GOP field, two fistfuls of dullards.
RK
True Grits
Steeplejack
How the West Was Boned. Underappreciated “art”/alt Western of the late ’60s. Think I saw it in Times Square.
Gunfight at the Koch Corral. Documentary? I wish.
Mary G
Lily! And Ginny – we haven’t seen her in a long time and I love the sweet little doggie curled up in the basket who will take your hand off if you touch her toys picture.
And I’m glad you are taking Thurston back to class. Sounds like he needs it. Love the posture with his head thrown back.
donnah
Don’t forget Palin’s pic: High Plains Grifter
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
High Plains Grifter
Edit: D’oh! Can I change it to High Plains Lifter a documentary about a regional power lifting tournament?
TaMara (BHF)
Remember the Alimony. Divorce in the Old West.
Mike J
For some reason, pit apologists will tell you what dogs love to be in water, what dogs are good to have around kids, and what dogs really want a large area to run around. For all of those things it’s fine to judge the breed. But if you dare say anything negative about pit bulls (one of which attacked my 70 year father), you’re the bad guy.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
Moonlight at the OK Corral
RK
High Plains Snifter The Man who Shat Liberty Valence
Felonius Monk
Low Nooner.
Felonius Monk
The Shiitist starring John Vain.
NotMax
May be myth or may be not, but supposedly there was once upon a time a movie theater marquee on which was displayed:
THEY DIED WITH THEIR BOOTS ON
AND SELECTED SHORTS
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
Fort Ameche
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
Hustler’s Rhapsody
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
Male Rider
RK
Winona Rider
Mike J
@RK: I almost said, The Man Who Skin Popped Liberty Valence, but I live in constant fear of being too hip for the room.
piratedan
3:10 to Yuma, El Centro and Riverside
Felonius Monk
Ride the Hick Country.
CONGRATULATIONS!
There’s a world famous animal shelter about ten miles from me that has made an awful lot of money unloading pit hybrids on the world, which pisses me off no end.
Bad enough to have one, even worse to have one and not know it.
I have never personally had a problem with one but know far too many people that have.
Mike J
Once Upon a Time in the Upper West Side.
Mike J
Rio Grande Latte
we would also accept
Rio Ariana Grande
RK
The In-Law Josey Wales
Unhealthy Looking Rider
Stagekosher
David Koch
New NH poll: Monmouth University Poll (July 23 to 26, 2015)
Trump (24%)
Bush! (12%)
Kasich (7%)
Walker (7%)
Rubio (6%)
Carson (5%)
Paul (5%)
Christie (4%)
Fiorina (3%)
Cruz (3%)
Huckabee (2%)
Jindal (2%)
Pataki (2%)
Perry (1%)
Santorum (1%)
Graham (1%)
Gilmore (1%)
Hahahhaha. McCain must be pissed. Trump dumped on him in the most personal and vicious way and no one in his party cares.
Mike J
@David Koch: So everyone below Cruz is out of the debate (if this were the only deciding factor).
Can’t believe Christie is running that far ahead of Huckster and Santorum. I thought all of his natural constituency (lovers of loud mouthed assholes) would go Trump.
kdaug
Sentiments exactly, Cole. I’ve been there, understood the appeal.
I just don’t want them in my life now.
And get the fuck off my lawn. (Goddamned cloud.)
KithKanan
The Nun Who Taught Liberty Valance
(She was the Mother Superior of them all)
Mike J
They Died with Their Ferragamos On.
KithKanan
The Leisure of the Sierra Madre
Sasha
Pale Ale Rider
The Outlaw Josie and the Pussycats
Flaming Saddles
RK
Rio Lobotomy
Do we know the demographics of Trump’s support?
Scamp Dog
Westward Ho, but this time about a saloon girl.
Debbie(aussie)
Just wanted to make a comment re Zanders post re deportation.
We have an issue here in Aust ‘go back where you came from’ and a TV doco made by SBS our multi-cultural channel about same. But I was wondering if anyone else uses the explanation, that hey none of us Europeans ‘belong’ here (respective countries). How many generations count to make one a ‘real’ American/Aussie. Think Europe might take all of us white people back. Racists make me so very very sick.
For those who might be interested 2015 version http://www.sbs.com.au/
Seanly
True Grift
The Mild Bunch
The Magnanimous Seven
3:10 To Peoria
srv
Loathsome Love
Blazing Paddles
The Mild Bunch
Nate Dawg
Shame
How the West Came Undone
slag
Speaking of guns…have we talked about this story: http://www.komonews.com/news/national/Teens-killing-by-friend-goes-to-special-jury-318531091.html yet? Best line:
Yeah. We killed a kid. But let’s not make some “BS, liberal deal” out of it. Pshaw!
Amir Khalid
@David Koch:
As I noted the other day: buffoon though he is, The Donald has been objectively the best Republican candidate so far and deserves to be in the lead. There are other candidates with a steadier temperament, more policy and governance and alliance-making skills, or a better-run campaign org, I’m sure of it. But he leads them all at making noise and getting attention.
dogwood
Many years ago I lived in an apartment with a neighbor across the alley who had a pit bull. One night I came home long past midnight to find that dog sitting in front of the entrance to my place. It took about 10 minutes to get my neighbors out of bed to come and get that sucker. And boy were they pissed. They started to lecture me about the grievous injustice that is pit bull bigotry. I told them to shut up and that the next time I saw that dog loose I would be calling animal control instead of knocking on their door.
redshirt
The Pit and the Dead.
John Revolta
Bareback Mountin’
NobodySpecial
@slag: Responsible gun owners, the lot of them.
RK
The Treasure of Sierra’s Madre
The Quick and the Healthy
Rio Bravura
Politically Lost
Cum West
Mandalay
After the Daily Beast repeated a (dubious and flimsy) accusation that Donald Trump had raped his ex-wife, Trump’s lawyer was surprisingly decent about the scurrilous claim:
Classy. President Trump will restore dignity and honor to the White House.
cmorenc
Twelve O’Crocked High
cmorenc
High Noonan
Tommy
@dogwood: The guy that lived next to me in DC had a pit bull. The breed of dog didn’t worry me but he beat the darn thing. I called the police multiple times and they did nothing. I was always worried if he got out something terrible might happen.
Tommy
@Mandalay: Wow. Look I would almost rather be accused of murder than rape. So if it isn’t true, well I’d be pretty pissed off. I could almost see myself saying and/or writing something similar to what Trump’s lawyer said.
But I am not a public person nor running to POTUS.
The scary thing is I fear doing this shit will only make the people that want to vote for Trump like him even more.
Also Biden can drop a f-bomb from time to time (although not recently) and the right always freaks out. The double standard is staggering!
Tommy
@Mandalay: I wish I wouldn’t have clicked through on the link you provided. I had to read this and now I need to go take a long hot shower:
You are wrong. Years ago I was at the funeral of my mother’s dad. I am out having a smoke and this person I have never met starts talking to me. He tells me my mother had been married before my dad. At the time they had been married 44 years. This was news to me.
I first found my younger brother and asked him if he knew this. Was it true? He knew nothing of it. We went to my father and he explained that yes she was married before. He beat and raped her. She was strong enough to get away from him.
Now we will NEVER talk about this again and you will never ask her about it.
I am pretty sure you CAN rape your wife.
Wallis Lane
The Ox-Balls Incident
She Bored a Yellow Gibbon
The Resuscitation of Jesse Helms by the Dour Robert Dole
Tommy
Just watching the Daily Show and I have a question. Does anybody know if most of the writers are staying when Jon goes away? I mean I flat out love how Jon does the show, but let’s face it the writers are really the stars.
If Comedy Central can keep the core of the writers I think Trevor Noah has a real good chance of being successful. The only TV site/blog I read is TVLine and they’ve said nothing about this.
NickM
Cat Ballet
Tommy
@NickM: I had that in my house yesterday. A fly got in. I chased the thing for like 30 minutes with a fly swatter and couldn’t get it.
Cat joined the chase and it was an epic battle. Cat eventually won but she was running around on her hind legs trying to get at it for an extended period of time.
Fly made the mistake of going to my glass front door, which is my cat’s “kill zone” for bugs. Game over.
Ian
Your inner republican is showing full display right here Cole.
Tommy
@Ian: Dogs are a reflection of their owners. Period and I will strongly disagree with Cole. A good friend of mine has I think 12 greyhounds. Hard to keep track to be honest. A few months ago one he recused, had been abused, he didn’t muzzle it and it attacked another and killed it. Sounded very similar to what happen when Cole’s brother’s dog attacked. It was over in seconds.
He told me it was his fault. The new dog didn’t know her place in the “pack.” He was lazy and didn’t take the precautions and again, his fault. Not the fault of the dog.
That is kind of exactly how I think of things and dogs in general.
Ian
@Tommy:
Dogs, like people, do unpredictable things. It’s all about making sure at a young age they are treated well and educated.
Tommy
@Ian: Yes. He knew the dog had been abused at a race track. She needed to be trained to not be aggressive and he had not had the time to do that. Why he usually muzzled her. He was as he said lazy and didn’t do it and a dog died because of it. He is kicking himself and not the dog.
Tree With Water
Speaking of Westerns: There’s a street scene in the 1940 movie western Santa Fe Trail (Errol Flynn, Olivia DeHavilland), in which a horse takes a dump onscreen. A big, unmistakable dump. It’s the first and only time I’ve seen that happen in any film, ever. No doubt there have been art house productions of, say, Death riding a shitting horse. But in a mainstream, studio film, I think it might have been a first. Which in turn begs the question: how many miles of film have been deemed useless as a result of animals defecating during filming? John Huston once said the Noah’s Ark scene from his movie The Bible was the toughest he ever shot, in part for that reason. That, and the fact the animals “refused” to take directions as they entered the Ark two-by-two. He understood, but still seemed a bit chagrined that audiences gave no thought to how difficult that was to shoot. Instead, film goers watched the scene and simply thought, “Right, two-by-two, no big deal…that’s how it’s supposed to look”.
Tommy
@Ian: Oh just a side thing. I love my brother but he is not doing well by his dog. He is more than a little aggressive. Likes to nip and jump up on you. He never does this with my niece, who is six, seems to understand she is smaller than him. That clearly is a very good thing.
But two weeks ago I house/dog sat while they were on vacation. They don’t walk him. Play fetch. They have a pretty large fenced in yard and they just “let him out.”
I am a walker so I took him for long walks. Or he dragged me around :). I play fetch with him. When my parents came over to take over they were stunned how laid back he was. I said yeah, take Murphy for a walk. It does wonders.
Another Holocene Human
@Mike J: I feel the fascination with pits is similar to the fascination with guns, the notion that you’re controlling something powerful (“unicorn tamer” as some wags put it) and that therefore makes you powerful.
The problem is that your pittie is an animal with a mind of its own.
I think I saw somewhere on an animal welfare site that pits kill 5-figures of other pets–mostly dogs–in the US every year!
And human maulings were in the dozens last year (2014) including far too many deaths.
(And one death recently attributed to another breed, well, that may have been a lie. A local news photo of the offender didn’t look anything like the claimed breed. Rather, looked just like a pit mix!)
I’m in GNV, a kind of infamous center of pit breeding and fighting. This is the place where some pits were seized from fighters and they BROKE INTO ANIMAL CONTROL to steal their pits back. There were also pit fighting newsletters from here. Recall, the original dons of pit fighting were Irish Catholic gangsters from Boston who moved to South Georgia when the heat got to be too much in Boston, and we are a short drive on I-75 from Valdosta, GA.
So at least when people here keep pibble, they don’t lie about it being a pibble or pretend it’s not a fighting dog.
Btw, unlike those bulldogs so popular in the 80s, they are actually really shitty guard dogs. But they might kill you or your grandkid or your elderly parent … or you. Kinda like a gun.
Another Holocene Human
Note: cops don’t even bother with pibble (they’re kind of infamous for being untrainable). They keep German Shepherds. On a leash.
(There have been some scandals with GS breeding lately, too. Some cops don’t care if their K9 mauls people. Other departments freak out.)
Another Holocene Human
But I may be biased against precious pibble. This notorious case was covered in the national gay press back in the day:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Diane_Whipple
Tommy
@Another Holocene Human: I have never owned a dog. I so want a German Shepherd. But spending any time on Google looking into them there seem to be a lot of breeding problems. At the top of the list is genetic problems because of inbreeding for decades. Their life span is almost half of that of a mutt.
I guess I have like three things I need with a dog. I don’t need a lap dog, I have a cat. They have to get along with said cat. They need to be active and want to walk with me for at least an hour a day.
Ian
@Another Holocene Human:
???
Schlemazel
@Tommy:
Our daughter got a pit mix from the shelter & it is a lovely gentle dog and she used to spout about notallpits. She and her intended decided to get another pit puppy from a place specializing in placing them. Despite the same people raising the second one it was a monster. They had to get rid of it because they could not have in near the first dog without it trying to kill him. They had to muzzle it anytime they took it out because it would try to attack other animals or people without warning. She is not so sure it is the owners that cause the problems any more.
Hang em High School Reunion
Pat Garrett and Billy the Goat
I’m OK, Your OK Corral
Pie Happens (opiejeanne)
@Another Holocene Human: We lived in the bay area when that happened. It was terrible, truly terrible. The woman walking the dogs didn’t have them under control and didn’t attempt to help the victim, nor did she express remorse.
The back story of the ownership of those dogs is really weird.
Pie Happens (opiejeanne)
@Schlemazel: I’m convinced it’s the breed, and some are sweeties but the rest are dangerous. I’m afraid the dangerous ones might be the majority.
I know a number of otherwise sane people who think they are all sweeties, and that all they need is love and training, that even the worst one is redeemable.
That said, a neighbor’s pair of goldens got out of their yard and attacked an elderly neighbor and broke both of her elbows. I distrust any dog larger than a cocker until I know it pretty well.
Another Holocene Human
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Absolutely. These people are scum. In some regions of the country most domestic animals are fixed, making a shortage of dogs, while pits–by design–are allowed to breed and breed. Then the “cold” ones or bad fighters are dumped on unsuspecting rubes.
Some pits lack the fighting gene. But it’s hard to tell, because some pits can seem “cold” for years and then attack somebody without warning. (They don’t bark prior to attacking, that would be bad in a fight dog.)
Another Holocene Human
@Pie Happens (opiejeanne): There was a big scandal in Golden breeding. Some Goldens had a neurological problem where they would attack, but the breeders just kept inbreeding them until people caught on and traded Goldens for labs. The lab is now the #1 dog in the US according to a dog site I read.
The for profit breeders are one of the biggest menaces out there. They don’t want regulation–because if people knew the shit they did, they’d be horrified. I mean papers breeders, not even the roadside kind. They’re all the same, that’s the dirty secret. (There is a horrific British documentary on dog breeding that changed my mind on the subject for sure. Those poor, disabled cocker spaniels.)
Another Holocene Human
@David Koch: Failorina polling ahead of Cruz and Hucksterbee? That’s gotta hurt. (Probably statistical noise, but still.)
Robert Sneddon
Custer’s Last Jump (aka They Died With Their Chutes On) is a real thing, an alternate-history story by Waldrop and Utley in which Custer’s 7th Airborne Cavalry’s zeppelins are ambushed by Crazy Horse’s ex-Confederacy stringbag fighters.
Another Holocene Human
@Debbie(aussie): It does pop up from time to time but it doesn’t stick (I liked that “Homeland Security 1492” t-shirt) because most white people believe the Indians are all dead so finders keepers or if they’re not all dead they’re stupid sloppy alcoholics and that is sooooooo funny.
We are just the scum of the earth, that’s what it boils down to.
Tommy
@Schlemazel: I could be wrong, it wouldn’t be the first time. And of course I also know that dogs have been breed for hundreds if not thousands of years to be better able to fight, hunt, you name it.
I have just had so many friends with dogs that were supposed to be aggressive, dangerous, and they were nothing of the sort.
Heck I had a friend that has this giant Rottweiler. Had to easily be over 150 pounds. Family had a lot of pool parties on their farm and the young kids were at first a little scared of the dog.
The first time I went to their farm the dog charged me and I openly recall freezing and thinking WTF will I do if his beast attacked me. He just said hello and licked me.
Those kids that were afraid, they’d soon pull its ears. Ride it like a horse. Dog was in heaven. Not an aggressive bone in his body.
But I guess sometimes you don’t know what the dog will be. I guess at some level what having a “wild” animal in your house means.
Schlemazel
@Another Holocene Human:
My brother & sister raised & showed a number of different dogs over the years & I went to a few shows with them. Some breeders just gave off a vib that let you know they were not people to be trusted. Many though were ‘responsible’ for one reason or other. Often it was simply to keep the price of their dogs up but many really resented the over breeding that brought on dysplasia and several other preventable condition that are now a problem with some breeds. I was unable to find anyone who would agree to breed my afghan hound because they didn’t know me and therefore did not trust that I would do right by the dogs. It made me unhappy but at the same time I respected their position.
Tommy
@Another Holocene Human:
I am a few miles from MO in Southern Illinois. We have the worse puppy mills in the nation in MO. It got a ton of press a few years ago when a bill came up to change the regulations. The newscast were horrifying. But somehow the bill didn’t pass, because less government.
Schlemazel
@Tommy:
I was a volunteer firefighter for a few years & the local cops had 2 K-9 units. Both German Shepherds. One was a handful, it bit his officer several times & the cop worked with him all the time but he was just super aggressive. I was sitting on the tailboard of an engine one time cooling off, coat open, helmet off when the other cop pulled up with his dog. He took a dish out & filled it from the leaky hose connection, set it down on the ground & called his dog. The dog leapt out of the car and charged right at me, jumped in my lap & started licking my face! I damn near wet myself! Turned out his dog was so friendly the cop wouldn’t let kids near it because he didn’t want them to think police dogs were gentle. Same breed, similar if not identical training, completely different personalities.
Tommy
@Schlemazel: I guess from all the comments my thinking it is the owner and maybe not the DNA/personality of the dog is wrong.
I just have a lot of friends with large dogs. They all treat them well. Spend time with them. Often training and none are aggressive or violent.
So that is what I am basing the owner matters on.
Anne Laurie
@Tommy:
And I so want a Bull Terrier (like the Target dog, or Spuds McKenzie if you can remember the 80s). Or maybe a ChowChow! But the dogs I have are Papillons, because me trying to keep a Bull Terrier under control would be a tragedy for all involved, and a Chow wouldn’t be much better.
Believe me: You don’t want a German Shepherd for your first dog, and the only people who would give/sell you a GS are either greedy shtbirds who think dogs are livestock, or naive idiots. Apart from their health issues, GSs are “high reactive” dogs that need to be carefully raised, trained, and given plenty of mental stimulation as well as exercise & careful veterinary care. Getting a GS for your first dog is like getting a Lamborghini for your first car — you might not kill yourself / wreck the car in a moment of inattention, but it’s a pure waste to spend that much money for a level of “performance” you will never ever need.
You need a dog like your brother’s Murphy, a Golden Retriever or a Standard Poodle or a Lab cross that’s young enough to keep up with your long walks & old enough to know better than to harass your cat. There are plenty of dogs meeting your best-use criteria in every shelter in the country, or on Petfinder. Make some visits, do some surfing, find a new companion that will make you happy even if s/he doesn’t have a pedigree!
Joel
Young Guns II
Tommy
@Anne Laurie: That I assume is good advice. I’ve done a ton of research and I know the breed can be a handful on many levels.
In fact the second type of dog I have pondered is a Lab cross/mutt. Really my only requirements is I don’t want a small dog. I walk about 10 miles and day (not all at once). I’d like a dog to walk with me. And of course it needs to play well with my cat.
The cat thing is my biggest concern. I didn’t declaw her so she could defend herself somewhat. Plus she is totally non-agressive. I have friends that have cats where I will offer out my hand to them and they will hiss and claw at me. My cat never does anything like that.
She’d rather run away.
BTW: Thanks for the advice. I think it is pretty spot on. I’ve asked for advice online about German Shepards a lot and you are the first to say any of this.
Schlemazel
Funny thing is the local humane society has to ship dogs in from other places because they place more dogs than they get in. That is kind of a good thing. But many of the inships are pit mixed & they are not honest about it. They tried to tell our daughter that hers was an Australian something or other but it was obviously not even close.
Tommy
@Schlemazel: I think the humane society is my only choice. First off I don’t need a puppy. Second, I have a somewhat friend from high school back in the 80s, that found me on Facebook, and he has a door rescue program/kennel.
I was kind of giddy about it, but after talking to them the other day I wonder how above board they are. I can’t put my finger on why I say that but just something felt “off” talking to them.
Anne Laurie
@Tommy:
Too often, people who really love their dogs can be “breed blind” — they assume their PERFECT dogs would be PERFECT for anybody, in any situation.
I came to know dogs from the other direction. I got my first dog when I was almost 30, because my dear friends were doing AKC dog obedience training, and I fell in love with the idea of communicating with an alien species. But obedience people are always aware that not every dog is right for every situation, and there’s nothing sadder than a good dog “wasted” in the wrong home. (Quite a few hard-working obedience dogs were “failures” in their first homes, or sometimes in multiple homes, because they were smart & driven & needed exercise for their minds & bodies that they weren’t given.)
You want an exercise buddy who’ll be happy to entertain themselves when you have to put in time working, one who doesn’t require a “career” of their own to stay happy. German Shepherds (and Border Collies, and Rottweilers) are great professional obedience dogs, because they’re driven & don’t mind repeating the same routine 10,000 times to get it “perfect”. But that means they can’t be left to make their own fun if you’re busy. Imagine, for instance, a German Shepherd who decides to “herd” your poor cat all over the house — she must need the exercise, after all — or one who takes to “defending” your property by threatening everyone who passes your house. You don’t want a “professional” dog, you want a casual-use model!
Tommy
@Anne Laurie: That is interesting insight. I thought I needed a “work” dog because I wanted it to be active. As I said I walk about 10 miles a day. I might walk more with a dog. I also work out of my house so I have the freedom to do whatever I want whenever. So if a dog drops a ball at my feet I can stand up, walk outside, and play with it.
Where I really see your point is I don’t know how to train a dog. I am not worried about it getting enough exercise. Worried I can’t properly train the dog.
As I said in another comment I love my brother but feel he has kind of dropped the ball with his dog. It is just an animal that lives in his house but he doesn’t spend time with it.
I spend a day over there and play with Murphy like this:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/webranding/5290976099/in/dateposted-public/
And then he isn’t hyper. Wants to curl up in my lap:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/webranding/7260903316/in/dateposted-public/
That is kind of the type of dog I want :)!
brantl
A Hebrew western, “For a Few Shekels More”
satby
@Anne Laurie: Mutts. I think most dog owners, especially new ones should get mutts. The people who want purebred usually want them for reasons that amount to woo, because breeds have traits but a specific given dog may not.
And I will not go down the rathole of pits: dangerous/ not dangerous (full disclosure:I have a very large pit/chocolate lab mix) ; but I will say that most people spout conventional wisdom about pit that is absolute BS (looking at you Another Halocene). Large powerful dogs can all potentially be dangerous. Small dogs have caused human deaths too; there was a horrible case where a lab puppy only 12 weeks old chewed a baby’s legs off as the kid sat in a baby swing for hours screaming until it died and the methhead parents and grandmother never woke up.
People are responsible when dogs aren’t supervised and controlled. All dogs can snap or act unpredictably. Golden retrievers have been developing a biter reputation in vet circles for years now, the same overbreeding that has reduced their life span has a also affected that legendary golden goofy temperament.
Tommy
@satby: I know you are not addressing me directly but I don’t mind a mutt and I don’t need a puppy. I wanted a German Shepard because honestly it was suggested to me a ton of the time here when I said I wanted an active dog. I also think they are beautiful. But in the grand scheme of things I am far less worried about the breed of the dog then I am it being active and able to “play” nice with my cat.
Tommy
@satby:
That was the big issue with the German Shepard and why I don’t have one already. I did more than a little research, because I have never had a dog, and I was stunned to learn many purebreds can have a life span 30, 40, even 50% less than a mutt because of all the inbreeding.
I had no idea this was why my brother’s wives golden lab had all those hip problems at an early age. Not only was the dog in so much pain they paid a small fortune to try and help it. I want NEITHER of those things to happen to my dog.
satby
@satby: and of course as a pet rescuer who has had to move, rehome, or keep hundreds of dogs and cats over the years I have done it, I think all pets should be spayed or neutered and that breeders should be outlawed. I don’t think any of them are responsible, because if they were they’d stop breeding animals and refer people to the breed rescues for a purebred as long as so many are surrendered and euthanized. They’re in it for the money, ALL of them, and once someone pays that huge fee they don’t give a rat’s ass what happens to the puppy a year or more from then.
ms_canadada
@Another Holocene Human: ‘Failorina’ is a perfect moniker for her. I don’t believe the polls. The repubs are worried that their only female candidate won’t make the cut.
The blah man and the white woman MUST be on that stage to demonstrate the inclusiveness of the repubs.
satby
@Tommy: I replied to Anne Laurie but it was to you too. A responsible rescue will match a dog’s behavior and temperament to your cat owning household and suggest dogs that are fine with cats and not food aggressive if the cat wanders over to sniff the dog’s bowl (we test for stuff like that), child friendly because of your niece, etc. All stuff that helps make a successful pet adoption.
A breeder will take the money and hand you a puppy.
Keith G
@satby: Truth. Witnessed. (or whatever the new catch phrase is)
And now we have a cat phrase: “Lion on the loose!”
Seems to be an escaped exotic cat (a youth) patrolling an area around a urban park in Milwaukee. The poor young’in is lost and alone and the guns are out.
Tommy
@satby: No worries about me going to a breeder. Never going to happen. Not in a million years. I live a few miles from MO and my understanding is we have the worse puppy mills in the country, by a long shot. Zero regulation.
A few years ago a bill came up in the State House, which didn’t pass, but the local news stations were all over it with “undercover” reports.
I figured the conditions had to be pretty bleak, but somehow they were far, far, far worse than I ever could have imagined. It was almost like the people running them must have stayed up late at night and actively pondered how to be more cruel to these animals.
I don’t think I would have ever gone to one before seeing this, but seeing the sheer horror of them, no chance in hell.
Stella B
@Tommy: look for a German shorthaired pointer rescue. You don’t want a puppy, because they have an infinite amount of energy, but even an older GSP has no limit on the amount of exercise it will tolerate. They have low aggression potential, are smart, and make excellent companions as long as they go for long walks every day.
Tommy
@Stella B: That is one fine looking dog. I had no clue that was what that breed of dog was. I am in love. But honestly people here have moved me to some sort of lab mutt.
The reason I’ve been thinking of getting a dog for more than a year and not pulled the trigger was my gut was telling me it was a mistake. My gut is almost always right and when I don’t follow it I always tend to pay for it.
But my gosh those German shorthaired pointer’s, the spotted ones (well all of them really), are flat out beautiful.
Tim F.
As with everything else I tend to bow to empiricism. Here is what I have learned from personal experience, observation and credible research studies that I have seen. No point persuading John here, it just seems like topical information.
* There aren’t very many actual staffordshire terriers out there. Many dogs you see come from fighting rings, uncredentialed backyard jagoffs and irresponsible ‘real’ breeders who have all created many generations of dogs with random or very bad characteristics. Actually selecting for temperament is too much work for jerks just trying to make a buck.
* More than that, ‘pit bull’ is not any kind of breed. See above, but also most people can’t tell breeds by sight and nobody bothers with a DNA test when someone gets bitten. So every short haired dog gets called a pit when cops or a reporter writes the report. Hence the crazy statistics.
* The dog is wildly popular with irresponsible assholes. That kind of owner would raise a dangerous goldendoodle. Except they all own ‘pits’. It’s like the saggy pants of the dog world. Something you have to do.
* That said, a staffordshire terrier does exist and it is regulated by the AKC. The breed’s properties are well documented and they have about the same personality as a (correctly bred) golden retriever.
* Yes, breeds have a personality. For example some dogs are terrible for families with children. Dalmatians top the list along with Chows in my opinion, and a lot of spitz breeds have both a prey drive and a dominance thing when it comes to small children. On the other hand a lot of breeds are pretty much great by default, like Goldens or Newfoundlands. Some are spectacular as long as the owner knows a little about behavior and training. This includes dobermans, rottweilers and german shepherds.
* Anecdotes! I live in the city, know literally dozens of rescued pits. Most of them are fantastic. A few play too rough. One or two I think the owners should show better judgment and return it to the shelter to be put down. Among all the dogs I know some clearly do NOT belong with other, smaller pets. Some are rescued pits, some not. Never keep a standard poodle or greyhound with smaller pets, for example.
* Max got attacked by a backyard pit that got loose. Not bad, but I intervened. I met they owners, they are clearly negligent idiots who might or might not have been holding it for a fighting ring.
* My dad got attacked significantly worse by a group of labradors.
* Someone in my neighborhood lost a newborn to their husky. Don’t leave your babies unattended with the dog, people.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Another Holocene Human:
FWIW, the dogs that killed Whipple were Presa Canarios, not pit bulls:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presa_canario
Her death was huge news all over California, not just in the gay press. Presas have been bred for dogfighting since Ancient Rome, so not something you should be keeping in a fucking APARTMENT.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Tommy: do yourself a favor and get the “Monks of New Skete” dog books, all of them, and read them before adopting anything. You may not be raising a puppy but their puppy book is invaluable for learning how dogs end up the way they do. They specialize in German Shepherds, but the training regimen is applicable to every breed.
I had a lab/shep/afghan cross that left us two years ago, but damn if she didn’t have the perfect personality. Loved kids, guarded and hunted with the local cats (they looked for her for over a year after we had to put her down), hunted rats/possums, and could and would walk for miles. Lived for 15 years, which beats both the numbers for shepherds and labs.
J R in WV
@Tommy:
Tommy,
I can’t recommend lab mixes enough. We have two now, one we got from our vet clinic, where they treated her for 9 months for the heart-worm she had.
The dog was walked on leash by vet techs every day, but never really trained. We asked them about dogs that were available, we knew they run a slightly covert rescue service and have seen the animal control officers bringing in animals when the shelter was full. She was a little apprehensive at first, but after we got close, she realized I wasn’t going to hurt her, and I got licked a lot, while she got scritches and pets.
Then a few years later I went to the shelter, where I found a 9 month old white lab mix. We named her Alice (in wonderland) a few days after we brought her home. She didn’t know what grass was! Had been in a crate with “puppy pads” for her whole life, with a pink rhinestone little girl collar. Then she got too big for a little girl in an apartment, and they dumped her at the shelter.
The two dogs are great. We also have cats, who have to put up with getting their ears licked by the younger dog, who likes the cats a little more than is normal, perhaps.
Older brown lab mix is 55 pounds, younger white lab mix is 65-70 pounds. Both are really friendly. They would do miles with you if you wanted to go with them. They do miles without us on the farm, which is surrounded by forest, and is really wooded hillside itself.
The labs are so smart you really can tell them things and they will figure it out pretty quickly. They don’t really do fetch, they will run and get something you throw, but won’t give it back to you if you’re just going to throw it away again!! It only took a few days to train Alice to go outside, all she knew were the damm puppy pads.
shell
Not gonna touch the whole “pit“ discussion. love that picture of Ginny and her toys. Is that a fruit bowl shes curled up in…
grishaxxx
I love Ginny for her hoarding of treasures, but kitties do seem to play with (and kill, and then lose) their favorites and go on to the next conquest. I cannot count the number of cat-toys that made it back to the light of day when Panther moved from Tucson to Orlando – some never reappeared at all.
Stella B
@Tommy: GSPs also tend to be pretty healthy and long-lived. They don’t have the hip problems that the heavier lab and lab mixes have. Their main problem is their absurd energy level which is why they do frequently wind up in rescue and is why I don’t usually recommend them. However, you might be just the candidate!
Bird dogs tend to be very low aggression and human-fixated (indoors), if a little, um, “distractable” outdoors.
If you are in SoCal:
http://www.gsp-rescue.org
patrick II
According to the wiki aritcle Fatal attacks by Dogs Pit Bulls or Pit Bull mixes killed nineteen people last year. The next highest was Rottweiler with two. Every other dog breed combined killed eleven.
Pit Bulls are clearly the runaway champs when it comes to killing people.
john b
@Tim F.:
This is basically what I came here to say. I’ve owned a pit bull mix that had behavioral issues. My wife and I went to great lengths to protect others from any possible repercussions of her issues (eg training, behavioral training, being very careful about keeping my dog away from other dogs, etc). And just from my one dog data set, I can say that she was an incredibly sweet dog, who at one point became very fearful and started lashing out (and unfortunately had to be put down).
I think many pits can be great dogs, but like with any large and strong breed, owners have to be very careful to know their dog and know the warning signs that they are getting stressed out. It’s not that hard to do with the correct training (for owners). Unfortunately the very owners who are more likely to have dogs with problems are the ones who aren’t going to put in that sort of effort.
Paul in KY
@slag: People will say all sorts of stupid shit when it’s their kid in the slammer.
Paul in KY
@john b: The whole problem with that breed is, well now I think of it, there’s 2 problems:
1) They were trained for bull baiting. When they bite down on something, they do not release. They start chewing.
2) Again, due to the bull baiting, they have a very high pain threshold & it is very, very hard to get them to stop biting/chewing once they get going.
Those 2 things above are very different habits than just about any other dog breed.
Daffodil's Mom
Tommy,
I second satby’s recommendations re: a responsible rescue and making sure the dog is cat-safe and not food-protective. But even after they claim the dog is cat-safe, have them show you and if it shows the least bit of arousal (as opposed to friendliness/affection), don’t get it. We’ve had two ostensibly cat-safe dogs who needed A LOT of extra training — by both us and a very exceptional cat (who taught them with love rather than claws!).
I’d suggest either a black lab — they tend to be the most easy-going or a Plott Hound, a wonderful homebody-type with few health problems bc they’re performance-bred. They’re always brindle, though, so be careful if you’re getting a rescue that it *looks* hound-y since rescuers sometimes hide pit-crosses by calling them Plotts. Big ears, hound-y looks and movements are what you want — we’ve got one, and he’s far and away the best dog I’ve ever had.
Tim F,
Absolutely agree w/most of what you wrote, especially never letting any dog alone w/a baby or small child — I’ve even known three separate labs who nipped a child in the face (doggie-mommie-corrective-behavior) when they felt the kid was getting too rowdy.
But I’m going to have to disagree w/you re: greyhounds, standard poodles and a little bit about chows, having had five, four and one (Daffodil) respectively, all of whom got along with cats very well indeed. Small-animal-proof-ness really depends on the dog.
CONGRATULATIONS!
I’m not so sure about that book: a lot of newer thinking (and our chow trainer) strongly suggests that the “dominant down” position, for example, heightens fear, if I remember correctly, and that can lead to aggression.
Ella in New Mexico
@J R in WV:
Yes!!! Labs and Goldens and Shepherds crossed with almost any breed will result in wonderful pets. Our family has never owned purebred dogs because A)all the genetic and medical issues that go along with all of them and B)too many perfectly wonderful cross breeds need homes in shelters.
We’ve owned a rescued Border Collie/some kind of shepard cross, Golden Retriever/unknown cross, and a Border Collie/Poodle or Terrier mix cross and they have all been the sweetest and most child-friendly animals I’ve ever seen. The bigger dogs did have a shorter lifespan than our little Terrier, sadly, just like their purebred counterparts seem to. But we had none of the common genetic maladies of any of the breeds.
My daughter’s boyfriend’s family has a Labradoodle, purposely bred, that is also a wonderful, sweet doggie. He’s a big baby.
My son found what seems to be a first generation Corgie/Shepherd cross lost in the Badlands of South Dakota who is just the best little man, too. He’s big for a Corgi but looks just like one. So smart and loving he’ll lick your face off if you let him.
InternetDragons
I’m with John on the pit bull thing. But I say this as someone who spent time doing rescue and placement of pits and pit mixes. I trained and showed a Staffordshire to her championship. I LOVED that dog, and for many years I would have been the first to jump on the train to shout about how the breed is fine, you just need to raise them right, you’re being unfair to them, blah blah blah.
I come from a family that includes more than one veterinarian, and worked my way through school as a vet tech. I thought I had a reality-based perspective on which dogs tended to be snappish, and which breeds families need to be cautious about.
But pits/Staffordshires are in a category of their own, and I denied that even to myself for many years. Even knowing how much time and effort and thought I had to devote to training, how many close calls there were with some dogs, and how often I could see the glimmer of that “look” begin to show up in my beloved Staff’s eyes. I knew how to bring her back to earth, but it was still something I always had to be aware of in a way that was never true for other breeds – including supposedly aggressive breeds.
I love the breed. I always will. I love their look, I love their compact size combined with power, I love their spirit and protectiveness. But as much as it breaks my heart to say it, I will never again try to defend them as a breed or recommend that anyone own one.
@Tommy – you got good advice about German Shepherds. They’re a grand dog, but not a beginner’s dog. German Shorthairs are also great dogs, but they are extremely high energy and can be quite destructive if not kept sufficiently entertained. If their breeding is bad, they could even be called ‘hyper’. Labs/lab mixes would be a good choice, as are Standard Poodles (think of them as a hunting dog. Seriously), and rescued Greyhounds are fantastic if they’ve been assessed as being safe with cats.
Nicole
@Tim F.: Thank you for this. I agree John will disregard, and understandably, as he lost a beloved animal, but his sister’s dog didn’t kill Tunch because she was a pit; she killed him because she was a dog and Tunch was a cat and they didn’t know each other well and they were left unattended together (accidentally, of course). My uncle had an Australian Shepherd who was a predator through and through and left behind her a wake of dead groundhogs, rabbits, birds, and anything else she could get. She would have killed a cat soon as look at it. (No toads though. She grabbed one once, got sick from the taste, and from then on hoppy toads could go on their way unmolested.)
Dog aggression against humans is an entirely different thing than aggression against other dogs or against prey animals (thanks, 35,000 years of domestication!) and you cannot say a dog aggressive to prey animals will be aggressive to humans. There is no connection.
I own a former shelter dog who (because I’m a crazy lady and did the DNA test thing) turned out be almost 100 percent Staffordshire Terrier. I got her because I asked for a dog that had tested safe with children, and she had. They told me she wasn’t good with aggressive dogs and should be the household’s only dog, and I said fine. And yeah, she is terrified of other dogs. But I get that and manage it because I’m a responsible dog owner- I don’t put her in situations where she could fail. I train her every day, working on her impulse control (as I’ve had to more than once pry a chicken bone out of her mouth that she grabbed off the pavement during a walk), and just keeping her little brain busy. I don’t leave her and my five-year-old alone, not because I don’t trust her with him (she is incredibly patient and kind and puts up with more shit from him than my mini schnauzer ever did from me when I was five), but because you never, ever leave kids and animals alone.
The National Canine Resource Council, which is an advocacy group. used to put out a yearly report on fatal dog attacks. They consistently found that while identifying breed was just about impossible in most cases, you could identify other leading causes- dogs involved in fatal attacks were likely to be “resident” dogs as opposed to family pets (meaning they lived in a garage or the yard or the basement), they were likely to not be neutered, and very often they were chained regularly. Focus on things that that is much more useful in working to limit dog attacks than breed, which no reputable source claims has any bearing on temperament. (The only dog I feared as a kid was my aunt and uncle’s Golden Retriever, who HATED children. I couldn’t go near him until he and I were both 12 and I was tall enough not to scare him.)
I think a lot of people who own dogs shouldn’t- I’ve been bitten more than once on the city streets by a small aggressive dog whose owner didn’t bother to control it. The problem is a big dog can do more damage than a small one, and thanks to 30+ years of media demonization, the pit is very attractive to a certain type of personality who shouldn’t own a dog anyway. And some of them are aggressive and should be put down. So should some Golden Retrievers, some Chihuahuas, some mutts, and some of every other kind of breed or mix. And yeah, all of them should be neutered and trained and socialized.
But the good ones, are very, very good ones. This story is from 2013- one of my favorite “dog rescues kid” accounts ever:
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=27211423
Another Holocene Human
@satby: Pit bites are facts, not “conventional wisdom”. Sorry.