The Trump on his potential election and the worldwide reaction:
Donald Trump said Thursday that he would unite the world should he become president, downplaying his penchant for controversy during a trip to Scotland.
“I think that I would be a great uniter. I think that I would have great diplomatic skills,” Trump said when asked by a local reporter about his past incendiary remarks.
Left unsaid is that they would unite in revulsion. See also Bush.
Elizabelle
I see Barack Obama getting back to back Nobel Peace prizes.
ETA: um, a second one.
Bobby B
Cedric:”I wish the motherfucker WOULD…..”
singfoom
Oh Trump, you walking Dunning–Kruger effect, you!
MY DIPLOMACY IS GOING TO BE YOOUUGE
chopper
either way his uniting is going to be classy and very, very big.
White Trash Liberal
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2015_07/jeb_and_the_babykillers056867.php#
This is a Trump thread, so I have no problem going OT. This is going to mortally wound his campaign, IMO.
I eagerly await the Authentic Beltway Jebberish trying to parse this situation. They can’t slander Hillary by proxy via the Clinton Foundation without this being fair game.
bystander
At this point, the only act of contrition Walter Palmer might provide humanity would require that he swore it was the mane of a lion he saw and he couldn’t resist taking it. Right after noting that his condolences and prayers are with Melania.
jl
Well, scoff, losers. Walking through the amazing lobby full of the newest art fresh from Europe and the huge luxurious gold doors of Trump headquarters to see the man himself has an effect on people. You’ll see.
After that, taking them to the White House for official diplomatic stuff will seem tacky and low class, but Trump will figure something out.
MattF
@White Trash Liberal: “I never knew they were funding abortionists– I thought it was contortionists.”
Germy Shoemangler
@MattF: You’re saying Jeb misheard?
Patricia Kayden
The world would unite in pointing and laughing at those crazy Americans for selecting someone even more buffoonish and stupid than George (“The Decider”) Bush. This country would deservedly be a laughing stock. My Canadian family/friends are still in shock that someone like Bush could win twice.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Jeb Bush was spouting off a couple weeks ago about how the world has lost respect for the US under Obama, the same week a poll came out showing actual poll numbers about US favorability around the world. Bush was right about Israel, Russia, Pakistan, Jordan and a few other countries. I’m sure I just missed all the MSM pointing out the absurdity of this talking point, and we won’t hear it again.
MattF
@Germy Shoemangler: No other conceivable explanation.
ETA: Apart from “I lied.”
Benw
@jl: maybe he’ll classy the joint up a little: fresh coat of paint, giant golden T’s on the doors, yooge bronze bust of Trump on the lawn, lit by spotlights 24/7. You know, small touches.
Germy Shoemangler
I expressed shock about him winning twice and was told that the first time he DIDN’T win, the election was stolen, and the second time there was some funny business with voting machines in Ohio.
trollhattan
@MattF: “Abolitionists.” “Abattoirs.” “Abbottabad.””Abby…something.”
raven
@trollhattan: normal
trollhattan
@Benw:
Those rainbow lights after the SCOTUS ruling surely gave him some ideeers. I’m guessing nighttime Trump slide shows projected on the WH.
Patrick
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Absurd indeed. I take it Jeb was not alive during the George W Bush era…
Germy Shoemangler
@trollhattan: First thing he’d do would be to replace Michelle Obama’s community garden with a golf course.
Didn’t Nixon fill in JFK’s swimming pool?
srv
If you don’t like brash Presidents, then you can’t have like Teddy Roosevelt.
It’s time for America to be brash again. I know you liberals like milquetoast leaders who like lattes and drive Volvos, but if you’ve ever traveled the real world, you know foreigners love a cowboy.
OmerosPeanut
Dunning-Krugering his Dunning-Kruger effects.
White Trash Liberal
@srv:
We love brash. We don’t love oafs who preach Fascism for Dummies.
But keep on arguing against the imaginary liberal concocted by hate radio.
trollhattan
@srv:
Care to take another run at that? Not sure the last firmware update completed.
D58826
From another member of the clown car – Mike Huckabee: I won’t rule out using federal troops and the FBI to prevent abortion.
And he claims Obama is dictator? It’s nice to chuckle about the clown car but these people are spouting ideas and comments that are dangerous. What other activities will Hucklebee call in federal troops for? Gay marriage? Smoking Pot? Flag burning?.
John Revolta
@Patricia Kayden: Well, you just tell those snarky hosers than he WASN’T elected twice. The first time, he was APPOINTED Leader of the Free World by Judicial fiat, over the actual will of the electorate. THAT’LL make ’em respect us.
jl
@Benw: The possibilities are endless. Trump could turn the Oval Office into a mock-up of the You;re Fired set. That’ll scare the dlplo suits and flunky heads of state straight. They’ll be all unified by respect and fear of Trump, and then when the Great Man smiles and taps them as Hired for constructive win-win diplomatic negotiations, they will melt in his hands.. Melt, I tell you.
Tractarian
Not the White House. No, no.
The Gold House.
trollhattan
@jl:
That would be hilarious. Needs fulltime production staff to ensure Dramatic Reality Show Music is always queued at the Right Moments. You know, like when they run the tease footage of opening the just-auctioned storage locker right before the ad break.
That there’s some classy presidentin’.
Karen S.
@Patricia Kayden:
The sort of people who would seriously consider voting for Trump have no idea how the rest of the world views them, and by extension the rest of us in the good ol’ USA, and they just don’t care.
beltane
@Tractarian: A mirrored ceiling will be installed over the bed in the Lincoln bedroom.
John Revolta
@Germy Shoemangler: Dunno about that, but Reagan took Carter’s solar panels off the White House.
@D58826: Blasphemy. Don’t forget blasphemy.
Germy Shoemangler
@beltane: He can get the wimmens’ vote by promising he’ll replace the glass ceiling with a mirrored ceiling.
Frankensteinbeck
Conservatives believe that Bush was respected around the world for his honesty, leadership, and willingness to stand up against tyranny.
Cervantes
@srv:
In the red-light districts, sure.
beltane
@Germy Shoemangler: Don’t knock this strategy. The Trump-like Silvio Berlusconi’s main base of political support was married, middle-aged women. Go figure.
Germy Shoemangler
@John Revolta: The pool was installed during the FDR administration. JFK swam in it every day he was at the white house. When Nixon got elected, he had it covered up with a press briefing room. (another Nixon cover up!)
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/Decoder/2010/0715/The-press-room-politics-of-a-hidden-White-House-swimming-pool
Cervantes
That is quite a photograph.
Iowa Old Lady
@D58826: Using Federal troops in the US against American citizens is a staggering idea.
I know Huckabee has no chance, but surely it means something that he can spout stuff like this and still be received in normal political and social situations.
Gin & Tonic
“No one in this world, so far as I know—and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me—has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people.”
Trump proves Mencken right.
Benw
@trollhattan: @jl: he would totally film a reality tv show while president. Call it “Commander in Trump” and it follows the hysterical misadventures of the world’s first “reality president”. 8/7 central tonight on CBS watch as Trump tells the President of Mexico “you’re fired!”. Zany pratfalls ensue!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Germy Shoemangler: wasn’t there a story about Barbara Bush encountering a rat while swimming laps at the WH pool?
And she took it in, and suckled it at her poison breast, and it grew to the size of a man, and she named it Karl, and gave it to her eldest son to run his campaigns?
ETA: “Commander-in-Trump”: Nice
Germy Shoemangler
The above photo of the Donald in the golf cart looks like it was drawn by Ruben Bolling at tom the dancing bug.
jl
@trollhattan: Think of the ad revenue the WH You;re Hired Show will bring in! National Debt? Problem solved. You are welcome. And Trump will say that, sincerely and with a smile, after we thank him.
Germy Shoemangler
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: “… and that, children, is the story of Turd Blossom.”
Tree With Water
The world’s revulsion to Trump being elected POTUS could not possibly exceed how I felt on that first Tuesday in November of 2004.
Mike in NC
Yo, Trump, you cannot wear black socks with white shoes and white pants. Not a classy look at all!
Shaun Appleby
@Mike in NC: Paging Roger Stone…
Germy Shoemangler
@Mike in NC: I don’t think those are socks. I think it’s sweater vest all the way down
schrodinger's cat
@Patrick: I did not know that Jeb Bush could travel to a parallel Universe, because that statement does not describe this one for sure.
ETA: I have yet to come across a citizen of another country who was a Bush fan.
lgerard
@Mike in NC:
I think it may be some kind of brace….the classy kind
Archon
@srv:
I waver between you being a brilliant satirist or you actually believing what you write.
Today I believe the former.
MattF
@D58826: Yeah, the Rev. GoHuckYourself is the genuine article. It’s something of a surprise– I had no idea.
Cervantes
@Archon:
I agree, and not only today.
KG
@Germy Shoemangler: the indoor pool was turned into the press briefing room during the Nixon Administration. It wasn’t filled in, just covered, apparently. It was originally built during FDR’s administration, but apparently changing technology required an updated press room and Nixon wasn’t a swimmer. Ford built an outdoor pool and cabana that has been used since, because it would have cost too much to bring the indoor pool back to life (as well as needing to find the press a new place)
Peale
@Karen S.: they just assume that the world is jealous of us. And should fear us enough that negotiating is just us listing our demands.
schrodinger's cat
@KG: The press can sit outside on the White House Lawn.
Cacti
A while back, I got called everything but a child of god for suggesting that Bernie Sanders was dog whistling on gun control.
The most liberalest candidate evar is now declaring that immigration reform is a Wall Street ploy to depress wages.
Aside from being xenophobic, the good Senator’s position also has the problem of being factually untrue.
redshirt
United in Trumpness.
Cervantes
@KG:
You have a gift for understatement.
schrodinger's cat
@Cacti: Its nothing new, if you have been following immigration news. He has co-sponsored anti-immigration legislation with his buddy Chuck Grassley.
dogwood
Republican voters know very little of the world. They are often poor whites who vote based on race and religious indoctrination who could never afford to leave the country. Many middle class republicans are too insecure to enjoy other cultures; if they’ve ever left the country they come back and bitch about how awful their trip was. Rich republicans travel frequently and stay in exclusive resorts where they avoid contact with any annoying foreigners other than the people serving them. These are the people who believe the world respected George W Bush.
J R in WV
Rev. Huckabee obviously cut the civics classes in high school. Did he ever go to a real college? Not a xtian school, a real college?
No Poli Sci there, if he did.
Otherwise he would know that troops, federal troops, can’t be used in the continential limits of the nation. That’s why mostly the National Guard is sent in to quell riots and such. Posse Commitatus act, maybe? I’m probably way off in the spelling.
What a dork – dumbass! Totally!
SiubhanDuinne
@White Trash Liberal:
Excellent.
Iowa Old Lady
@J R in WV: If he’s willing to defy a Supreme Court decision by sending troops to, I don’t know, drag the sluts out of the clinic, then it matters little to him what the Constitution says about the deployment of the army within the borders of the US.
SiubhanDuinne
@Benw:
Vegas-on-the-Potomac.
redshirt
Someone with talent needs to come up with a Trump “Hope” picture.
And then send it to me and I’ll tweet it to The Donald and he’ll love it and it will become “a thing”.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@J R in WV: you did make me curious. Per Wiki
schrodinger's cat
@Cacti: Its nothing new, if you have been following immigration news. He has co-sponsored anti-immigration legislation with his buddy Chuck Grassley. Immigrants be stealing our jobs, say Bernie and Chuck.
dogwood
@Cacti:
Glad to see you bring this up. I saw it and thought about commenting on it here, but I pretty much got taken to the woodshed earlier this week when I expressed my opinion that Bernie wasn’t all that suited to the Presidency.
Anyway, I hope everyone here enjoys the rest of their summer. I’m taking a break from thinking, reading, or speaking about politics. I hope I can hold out until the Iowa caucuses.
Kay
@Cacti:
Well, sort of:
He goes on to say he supports broader immigration reform. Why do you think technology companies are supporting an increase in H-1B visas as part of immigration reform? Because they’re concerned about undocumented low wage workers? Seems pretty clear to me it’s political horsetrading- they get the increase in return for their support of broader immigration reform. They had exactly the same position when Bush attempted to reform immigration.
Is supporting cheaper contract labor for tech companies a progressive position now?
jl
@J R in WV: There is a higher law than the Constitution operative right now: ‘I gotta say outrageous shit to keep my ass in the prime time Fox News debate next week’ law,
Cacti
@Kay:
Except, that’s also untrue.
Bernie doesn’t want skilled or unskilled furriners coming.
Maybe he and Trump can form a “stop the brown menace” unity ticket.
Cpl. Cam
Talk classy and carry a yoouge stick!
dedc79
@Cacti: There’s a mismatch between your links (you seem to suggest that the 2nd link addresses and rebuts Sanders’ statements in the 1st). An article about opposition to a particular component of immigration reform (the foreign-worker visa program) and an article about how immigration in general (including the undocumented) does not harm native-born workers. This is a complex issue and requires a bit more nuance than what you’re offering – which is a broad attack on Sanders for supposed racism and xenophobia.
Kay
@Cacti:
This is also what he’s talking about:
He had the same objections with the Bush-era immigration reform, and so did Ted Kennedy, but Kennedy was willing to horsetrade to protect the undocumented who are already here. They never would have gotten GOP support without the cheap labor provisions. They won’t get it now without cheap labor provisions.
trollhattan
@Cpl. Cam:
Damnit, now I want to vote for him.
Also, too, can we revive “short-fingered vulgarian” for the campaign, pretty please?
Cacti
@dedc79:
See post 71.
Bernie is against the skilled or unskilled coming here.
He prefers his American community gated.
Pretty shameful for a guy whose Dad was a WWII Jewish immigrant from Poland, and would have had all the same arguments aimed his way.
JPL
@Cacti: I didn’t read the entire article. Did it mention guest workers? To me
they are the biggest threat, not only because some receive low wages and possibly jim crow type of abuse.
I see Kay spoke about the same thing.
Kay
@Cacti:
Immigration reform in the mainstream Democratic Party has nothing whatever to do with “bringing in unskilled kids”.
Sanders doesn’t support what every other Democrat also doesn’t support. “Immigration reform” doesn’t mean “open borders”, which is how Ezra Klein posed the question. “Open borders” is the extreme libertarian position- it’s the Koch brothers. Sanders was correct when he told that to Klein and he’s correct here.
The big issue for Democrats is a “path to citizenship” for people who are already here and a fair allocation of quotas to enter. That’s been true for 20 years. That was Kennedy’s position and it hasn’t changed.
Iowa Old Lady
@JPL: I worry about guest workers because there’s no one in power to represent their interests.
Chris
@jl:
The debt problem would only be solved if revenue went to the government and not Trump privately. Which I’m sure he’d ensure would happen.
JPL
@Kay: My son stopped by earlier and I mentioned that article from BuzzFeed
and how surprised that I was because they did actual reporting.
Keith G
Following up on something I commented about earlier, now the NYT has just put up it’s coverage of Hilary’s speech today, headline: Hillary Clinton Hits Jeb Bush First, and Hard, in Speech on Race
Further down, reporting on Team Jeb!’s reax:
Yummy!
I like it when one of us makes them squeal.
schrodinger's cat
@Kay: First, H1-B visas are used in more industries than tech. In my opinion H1-B visas and the entire employment based visa system need a major overhaul. Right now its the employers who have all the power, which is abused by many.
Cervantes
@dedc79:
Picky, aren’t you?
jl
@Kay: I really don’t understand the reason why some people want to turn themselves into trolls for or against HRC or Sanders or O’Malley at this early stage of the primary campaign. Maybe Republican primary primary campaign psychology is contagious.
I heard Sanders talk about this aspect of immigration reform in the context of wages AND unemployment among low education Hispanics. The link Cacti posted addresses neither the issue of unemployment nor low education Hispanic workers directly. If you read the link, it surmises that its results on wages should also hold for employment, but there is no evidence presented on that point at all.in the link. The link says that it does not do analysis by Hispanic ethnicity and goes out of its way, and presents tables at the end, to show that the results may not hold for some states with a large population of low education Hispanic workers.
So, thanks to Cacti for the link. I will read it in extreme detail later when I have time. But I do not think it says what Cacti advertises it to say.
Another issue is the abuse of the foreign visa holders themselves, both the high tech and low tech variety. The problems there seem obvious. But, heck, if people want to scream that any expression of concern about foreign visa holders being exploited, and for low tech workers, treated almost like slaves or indentured servants in many places, amounts to xenophobia, it is a free country and people can say what they want.
Gimlet
Jumping up and down to get attention
Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee indicated Thursday that if elected, he wouldn’t rule out employing federal troops or the Federal Bureau of Investigation to stop abortion from taking place in the United States.
Though the U.S. Supreme Court ruled against bans on abortion, Huckabee said past presidents have defied Supreme Court rulings.
dedc79
@Cacti: Is your position that anyone who wants to come here should be able to and should be given citizenship automatically? How about people who want to come here but don’t have the resources or ability? Should we go pick them up and bring them here? Should we be offering to take in all the immigrants taking boats from North Africa to southern Italy and Greece? The millions of Syrian refugees marching into Turkey?
And who is your favored Democratic candidate and do you think he/she agrees with you?
JustRuss
@KG: The knowledge that there’s a swimming pool under the White House press room is giving me the idea for a delightfully fiendish plan. Think the dance scene from It’s a Wonderful Life…with sharks.
Kay
@Iowa Old Lady:
People have to have noticed that immigration reform has some rather unlikely allies who are not at all progressive.
Jeb Bush, for one, until he started lying about it, and Scott Walker, until HE started lying about it. That’s what they want from Democrats in return for the path to citizenship- the cheap labor visa expansion. That’s what Bush wanted in return for the path to citizenship. They’ll get it, too. Democrats won’t get immigration reform in Congress without meeting GOP goals, and GOP goals have nothing to do with humanitarian concerns.
cosima
@Patricia Kayden: One of the newspaper headlines after GWB’s second “win” was along the lines of “How Can ##### People Be So Stupid?” I saved it for posterity and sent it to an attorney friend of mine back in the US.
We have a special loathing for you here in Scotland, Trump, and you bloody well know it, so bugger off.
Cervantes
@Kay:
Good luck speaking truth to whatever it is you’re speaking truth to.
Have a great evening while you’re at it — and afterwards!
Cacti
@dedc79:
I’m sorry you’re bummed that Bernie’s sounding like a bit of xenophobe.
But if I wanted the Know Nothing position on immigration, I’d vote GOP.
trollhattan
@schrodinger’s cat:
As best as I can tell H-1Bs are an answer to a (mostly) non-existent problem: primarily a way to get tech workers at some fraction of their American counterparts and by the way, also unable to job-shop. There’s a reason Apple, Google et al were colluding to not hire away folks from one another.
SiubhanDuinne
@Mike in NC:
Nixon: “If the President does it, it’s legal.”
Trump: “If Trump does it, it’s classy.”
JustRuss
@Keith G:
Riiiight. “We were totally going to be nice, this one time, and then Hillary had to ruin everything by being all partisanny.” Sure, and I have some lovely swamp land for sale.
MomSense
@srv:
Show me a “brash” republican who wants to support the national park service and preserve those lands for the public and not mining interests. Show me a “brash” Republucan who supports universal health care like Roosevelt proposed in 1909.
Republucans now are all brash no brains and certainly no interest in responsible governance. Teddy would be shunned by today’s GOP.
Kay
@jl:
Ezra Klein did a sophisticated version of it. He asked Sanders if he supported “open borders” (no Democrat does) and Sanders said no. This was read in certain circles as “Sanders opposes immigration reform”, which is a ridiculous reading. I don’t think Klein did it deliberately- I think he understands the issue and he knew Sanders does too. I actually think he was giving Sanders an opening to make his argument.
Another Holocene Human
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: And Pakistan I can only imagine is still butthurt about the OBL operation, which, if war-fappers were consistent (they’re not) would be a plus.
dedc79
@Cacti: You accuse Sanders supporters (I am not one of them, by the way, although I think he’s a positive addition to the primaries) of being closed-minded. You’ve pretty clearly made up your own mind, to the point where you’re determined to see everything he says/does through a lens of assumed racism/xenophobia. That’s your right, of course, but maybe don’t be surprised that so many other people aren’t seeing the same thing you’re seeing.
ETA: And why won’t you tell us your position on immigration? Is it open borders or not?
White Trash Liberal
@Cacti:
I disagree with Bernie strongly on this. The problem is the business world exploiting the H-1B Visa program for indentured servants. That should be excoriated. But the Visas themselves should be expanded. I think the correlation that the H1-B program depresses wages and jobs for citizens is both false and demeaning to the american immigrant dream.
SiubhanDuinne
@KG:
OTOH, if the WH press corpse were constantly having to tread water, we might get better journamalism from them.
trollhattan
@JustRuss:
Ironically, JEB! more than likely has a lot of swampland to sell.
Another Holocene Human
@Germy Shoemangler: He won the popular vote in 2004. We suck as a people.
But put me in the column that thinks he lost in November, 2000. He was appointed. I believe he lost Florida, lost the popular vote, and thousands of Florida voters also had their civil rights violated on voting day just to make it close enough to bring the lawyers out. I’m not the sort to obsess about it, but yeah, it’s like Hayes, there needs to be an asterisk there in the history books.
JustRuss
Apparently Trump thinks the fact that everyone kisses his ass is due to his “diplomatic skills”, as opposed to his yooooge bank account. Awesome, because clueless hubris worked so well as a basis for W’s foreign policy.
redshirt
I’d replace every Teabagger with a Mexican and be 100% confident the country would be far better off for it.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Germy Shoemangler: It was FDR’s swimming pool, it was filled in to create the press room. It was replaced with an outdoor pool, by Jerry Ford(I think).
ETA: See you already got there…
Peale
@Cacti: at some point before I’m ready to retire, I expect my company to replace me with someone from our “captive” bpo that we’ve been building. That BPO is full of what used to be entry level middle class workers. There are millions of those offshore. Because we aren’t hiring entry level office workers, we will find it difficult to find actual middle class workers with sufficient experience when this current crop of department directors and VPs retire. In other departments, that is already happening…in the name of managing an offshore group, someone is promoted from abroad and shipped here. You may think that’s not a problem, but I’m not certain why I wouldn’t find that a problem.
White Trash Liberal
@Kay:
Like I stated above, I am all for expanding the H1-B program provided DHS and the IRS are given latitude to enforce human and labor rights provisions through strict penalties.
There is nothing wrong with expanded immigration in all facets. It’s the exploitation that is wrong.
Another Holocene Human
@Karen S.: They “know”. Just ask them.
JustRuss
@Another Holocene Human: I’m not sure W won in 2004. There was a lot of hanky-panky in Ohio. Still, shouldn’t have even been close in a sane world.
Keith G
@Cacti:
Okay, let’s see a direct quote from the Senator:
And yes there is a debate over the aggregate impact of more unskilled workers, but there is less debate on the impact of more unskilled immigration specifically on already under-employed urban populations.
Kay
@Cacti:
This is President Obama’s position on immigration reform:
Bernie Sanders would not disagree with one word of that.
White Trash Liberal
@Keith G:
I think that statement is tone deaf. Of course Wall Street has a vested interest in low wages, but the immigration debate is about familieswith hhopes and dreams. Bernie is making immigrants sound like a pawn in the great game against US workers. No bueno.
Kay
@White Trash Liberal:
We don’t even enforce the labor laws we have in place now. They are desperately trying to create a “ripple effect” with wage theft by using high profile prosecutions. The US Department of Labor states that this is their strategy, because they can’t put a regulator in every workplace, and we have fewer than 20 Democratic governors, and maybe 5 of those are progressives, so no help there.
They’ll get the visa expansion with the path to citizenship because there is no way it gets a single GOP vote without it, so you’ll get your wish. Immigration is like everything else. Democrats want something and Republicans want something and the only way we get anything at all is if everyone gets a piece.
There’s a great documentary on the Bush immigration reform effort. It failed, but Kennedy led it and he was the person who developed and sort of embodied the humanitarian approach. But he was ready to deal.
srv
@MomSense:
Real Americans would embrace our greatest Lion Hunter, just like they embrace Trump now. You people and your parties – you should read up more about Teddy.
Cacti
@White Trash Liberal:
The oldest and most reactionary anti-immigrant argument in the book is “they took our jerbs!”.
It’s also essentially untrue.
Immigrants increase both the supply of labor and the demand for it. They’re people, not potted plants. When they get here, they need to eat, have a place to live, get medical care, get haircuts, buy cars, etc. In Keynsian terms, immigrants boost aggregate demand through their need for goods and services.
There’s a big leap between saying you want reform of the H1-B program and saying I don’t want unskilled furriners coming and taking jerbs from our kids.
That’s why Bernie’s statements are problematic.
shell
Ive given up trying to even figure how to react to the bizzaro things Trump says. My fear is that he’s going to revert to “reasonable, rational person” instead of letting his ” that we’re all hoping for.
Another Holocene Human
@Cacti: WTF planet is he on, doesn’t undocumented labor, not to mention those abusive, employer controlled visa programs, depress wages? Giving alien residents the same rights as everybody else would only improve the situation. They could unionize without being deported. They could report employers for wage theft. They could change jobs.
ETA: Wow. I got suckered. I knew I was going to get suckered, and I still got suckered. Fuck you, Cacti.
Cervantes
@srv:
He did refuse to shoot that bear, I’ll have you know.
White Trash Liberal
@Kay:
I get that. Trust me. This is a long game. But it is much better to play the game embracing the truth that this country thrives on the immigrant experiment.
The fact that we fail to enforce existing laws is dogging many areas of our country, not just immigration. But that should be addressed by preaching enforcement, not hand waving the lack of it as a reason to play to baser instincts of the Wall Street conspiracy to crush us with cheap immigrant labor.
Kay
@White Trash Liberal:
This is the film. The expansion of worker visas was the condition for business interests and GOP support. Sanders is right.
Stupidly, Republicans didn’t take Kennedy’s deal and now they’re going to get a worse deal if Clinton wins, which is why they’re pitching a hissy fit.
redshirt
@Cacti: And even moreso, America IS immigrants. If you’re not an Apache or Navajo or etc, you’re an immigrant.
We should be welcoming every single person who wants to come to America. Immigrants made this country what it is.
Another Holocene Human
@Cacti: Bad actor employers, and they’re all bad actors, want non-citizen labor so they can exploit them in ways they can never exploit citizens, “kids” or otherwise.
Employer-controlled work visas suck. They don’t solve a problem for anybody but the bad actor employer. When you look a manufacturing and agriculture which have been busted recently for actual enslavement of workers, you know, something ain’t right.
There’s a reason the Chamber of Commerce and Republicans keep championing these things.
Cacti
@redshirt:
What?
You’re saying you support open borders and believe in that namby-pamby Statue of Liberty crap?
My progressive betters tell me that this makes me an enemy of the proletariat revolution.
redshirt
@Cacti: I’d literally remove border controls on the Canadian and Mexican borders. Let them all in. Or out ( as we escape to Canada when The Donald becomes President).
I’ve lived near the Canadian border for a good portion of my life and the change since 2001 is just sad.
Archon
@srv:
Definitely satire.
Cacti
@redshirt:
I lived in the San Diego area before crossing the Mexican border and returning was a complete hassle for day tourists.
The post 9/11 changes have all been for the worse.
Kay
@White Trash Liberal:
Any immigration will include quotas for legal entry. The big fight will be over which countries those apply to. Not expanding HB-1 visas does not mean one is opposed to immigration or new immigrants. It means one is opposed to specific industries bringing specific skilled workers in for specific reasons. Arguably, if you’re after the broad “immigration experience” …bring me your tired… like what Sanders’ parents benefitted from you should object to the selectivity of HB-1 visas.
schrodinger's cat
@Another Holocene Human: To be eligible for the employment based Green Card categories you have to be sponsored by your employer. An extremely small fraction of immigrants can self petition. Also, you can be on the H1-B for a maximum of six years. One way to reduce the abuse of H1-B visa, would be to make more EB (Employment Based) Green Cards easier to self petition, adopt a system like Canada’s.
srv
Stop the presses, Roddy Piper, RIP.
Tommy
@redshirt: Yes. You might get pissed at me I talk about myself but I am an immigrant. Maybe back in 1860s but still an immigrant.
I am not sure there is any more true statement.
WereBear
@Keith G: This is the kind of HRC payback I’ve been dreaming of!
Cacti
@srv:
Another pro wrestler dies at a relatively young age (61).
Vince McMahon, how do you sleep at night?
schrodinger's cat
@Kay: H1-B visas are used for fashion models to scientists and everything in between, not just techies.
redshirt
@Cacti:
I used to go to Nogales all the time but since their Drug War turned hot, no more. I miss it.
Kay
@Cacti:
When in the history of the United States did we ever have “open borders”? Never. Have you ever heard President Obama utter the phrase “open borders”? No, and you never will.
redshirt
@Cacti:
On a huge bed stuffed with money.
Keith G
But they better bring their own fucking water.
Cacti
@Kay:
At what point after your ancestors stepped off the boat did the country become full, Kay? Immediately, or did it take a while?
LWA
@srv:
I know you were probably just snarking, but if you’ve ever read much about Teddy Roosevelt (like Edmund Morris’ biographies), he was actually a much more mild mannered deep thinker than the historical caricature would have it.
WereBear
@JustRuss: This is an old ploy of theirs.
When it really gets nasty is when they pull it on their children, who don’t know any better.
Amir Khalid
@srv:
I hadn’t thought about “Rowdy” Roddy Piper in decades.
PaulW
If Trump or any Republican wins in 2016, I seriously believe the European nations will kick the U S out of NATO just to retain their sanity, and impose travel restrictions to America to reduce risk of the ‘plague of madness’ threatening mankind.
PaulW
@srv:
His “I am here to chew bubblegum and kick ass” better be on his f-cking tombstone for future generations to worship in awe.
Kay
@schrodinger’s cat:
Right, but tech companies were the big lobbyists on it and they were the powerful supporters in 2007 and will be again. Ted Kennedy’s big fight was the quotas we have now. They wanted to limit Mexico and Central America and expand Asian and Eastern European countries. Kennedy had a broader humanitarian goal that I think is closer to the traditionally progressive position, but it’s complicated.
redshirt
@Amir Khalid:
I’ve never forgiven/forgot his sneak attack on Jimmy “Supafly” Snooka.
schrodinger's cat
@Tommy: You are not an immigrant, you were born here as were your parents. You had an immigrant ancestor, that doesn’t make you an immigrant.
Kay
@Cacti:
You know, this is cute but you never actually get into specifics with your ciritiques of Bernie Sanders. Did he criticize President Obama once? Is that his offense? Or is he some kind of proxy for “firebaggers”?
He was a loyal godammned soldier for all of Obama’s initiatives up to the trade deal (which will be a piece of crap, incidentally). How much loyalty does he have to have? Can he run at all or is that forbidden?
PaulW
@Kay:
Historians view the early history of the United States – during the 1780s until the late 19th century – as a period where our borders were not fully defended or patrolled. For example in the 1880s there was widespread travel between the U.S. and Mexican borders between cow ranchers and traders. Given the nature of Manifest Destiny and the progress of established communities westward, we had issue even defining our borders until the 20th century. We didn’t have any effort at controlling our border with Mexico until 1904.
srv
@LWA: An image and caricature that he himself groomed.
Of course, no one like that exists now. Everything is 100% real on the TV.
redshirt
@schrodinger’s cat:
I disagree with your take. I think it’s important to think of yourself as an immigrant in America even if your family has lived here for a hundred years, as it emphasizes the true nature of America (a nation of immigrants), and induces compassion for actual immigrants and their plight.
Cacti
@Kay:
Bernie’s anti-immigration argument is basically an unadorned version of the Lump of Labor fallacy.
It’s premised on the factually incorrect position that both the supply of and demand for labor are static, and that admitting immigrants affects only the former and not the latter, which is demonstrably false.
And as I said above, being the son of a first generation immigrant who was fleeing a war, his position on this issue is not only regressive, but spectacularly hypocritical.
Kay
@PaulW:
Thank you. I think they’re talking about when the waves of Europeans arrived, though. That’s generally considered our “immigration story” and that would have been Sanders’ parents.
Except Sander’s parents wouldn’t have gotten in on an HB-1 visa although they might have gotten in as refugees (Holocaust), if the quota from Poland was exceeded.
Gin & Tonic
@schrodinger’s cat: Thank you.
Gin & Tonic
@redshirt: By your definition everyone is an immigrant, which empties the word of meaning. Homo Sapiens Sapiens did not evolve on this continent.
Ruckus
@Cacti:
Your point would be better made if you actually answered questions put to you and if you actually quoted in full, Senator Sanders. Most of your info comes from others or is made up out of thin air. You don’t like the guy, no problem. But until you can show me where what you say actually comes from him, you got nothing.
Kay
@Cacti:
I think your continued effort to portray Bernie Sanders as some kind of populist idiot is really misguided, but it’s of a piece with your lightening fast turn on Sherrod Brown and Elizabeth Warren when they dared to question the trade deal. No matter that both Sherrod Brown and Elizabeth Warren were NOT vocal critics of the President and supported nearly everything he tried. You should get ready because when the President unveils his and Mitch McConnell’s trade deal we’re going to have a long, loud debate on it and the majority of Democrats will oppose it. I’m sure the President will survive.
I also suggest you don’t advocate for the Obama position on immigration reform by calling for “open borders” because that isn’t the position of a single member of Congress or the President. That probably hurts the cause.
redshirt
@Gin & Tonic: Everyone except Apaches, Navajos, Comanches, etc. And of course even they are immigrants too.
America – North and South – is the land of immigrants.
Cacti
@Ruckus:
Bernie cannot fail. He can only be failed.
jl
@Cacti: That is not Sanders asserting the Lump of Labor fallacy. I don’t see how it has to be interpreted as a Lump of Labor fallacy at all.
Are you asserting that an industry wide plan, actually a plan by several industries, to increase total labor supply in this country cannot possibly have an effect on the equilibrium level of wages and employment on the labor market,or on some segments of the labor market?
Edit: if Sanders were really a Lump of Labor Fallacy person, he would be against any immigration at all until we got to a labor shortage in the US. Is he saying that?
Cacti
@Kay:
I see you didn’t actually address any of the points I raised about Sanders’ immigration position after your whine about my lack of specifics, and instead are attempting to change the subject.
I’m sorry Sherrod Brown embarrassed you when he got all huffy and puffy and called the POTUS a sexist. I’m not sorry that I don’t regard ex-Republican Warren with sufficient reverence for your liking. But both are entirely beside the point.
Gin & Tonic
@redshirt: Which, as I said, empties the word of meaning. There are actual differences among those who came to North America 13,000 years ago, those who came 500 years ago, those who came 150 years ago, those who came 70 years ago, those who came 20 years ago, or those who came last year. These differences mean something in today’s political conversations.
Ruckus
@Cacti:
Bernie is not the failure in this issue, on this thread. You are. You are making claims that don’t hold water. I haven’t heard one person claim that Bernie can’t fail. In fact I’ve posted on BJ that I don’t believe he will be the the democratic candidate and why I’m pretty sure I won’t vote for him in the primary. But just keep fucking that chicken, I’m sure it will work out just fine for you.
Cacti
@jl:
I’m saying that warnings of “they’re coming to take our jerbs” without recognition of the fact that immigrants as a group contribute to aggregate demand growth is textbook Lump of Labor thinking.
Peale
Ugh. @Amir Khalid: ugh. I admit that my one foray into supporting the fine arts through more than buying a ticket was a contribution to the indigogo funding drive for “Portal to Hell”, a short film in which Roddy Piper battles Cthulhu to save the earth. Sadly, I think that will now be upon its release, his last film, if it gets completed at all.
schrodinger's cat
@Gin & Tonic: I agree with you. Its good to empathize with immigrants but calling yourself one when you are not seems like appropriation.
Keith G
@Kay:
@jl:
This is the point where one may want to consider the the opinion of Valued Commenter, Alex.
For bonus points, review Cole’s observation some 16 comments earlier.
Edited to fix link
JustRuss
@WereBear:
Since the press gave Bush credit for “a rare gesture of bipartisanship” for something he claimed he was going to do, I guess we can say that the Times is about as gullible as a child when it comes to bashing Hillary. But then we already knew that.
redshirt
@Gin & Tonic: It’s the difference between being an Englishman and an American. An Englishman might have a history going back 1000 years or more in the same town. No American – not a one – can claim anything longer than 300 years, and very, very few can go back more than 200, and most only go back 100-150 years.
This country is defined my immigration like no other nation in the history of the world. We should all revel in our immigrant status. This is a far better perspective to discuss current immigration than whatever viewpoint you’re espousing – which is what?
Of course Tommy and I and you aren’t actual immigrants. But we are the children of immigrants as is like 98% of the population and I think its critical we never forget this. Many do.
Shaun Appleby
Crikey. Bush, when asked if he harboured qualms about going head-to-head with Trump or any other Republican candidates at the forthcoming debate:
JPL
@Shaun Appleby: Republicans have special big boy pants. Wow!
redshirt
@schrodinger’s cat: I’m not actually considering myself an immigrant as my white trash family has scraped by in this country for about 100 years now. I’m an “American”. Not an English-American or an Irish-American or a German-American, but simply an American. And I define “American” as the people of the entire world, black, white, red and every other color and ethnicity that can possibly exist. And people who chose (or were forced!) to come to this country and start their lives over.
So we’re all immigrants, as Americans. Your argument over semantics seems defeating to me.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Shaun Appleby: What he doesn’t say is Barbara will have to help him put them on.
What I’ve been wondering about Jeb(!) is, who does his dirty work? The old man had Atwater and Bellatrix Matalin, Dumbya had Rove. Who’s helping right the independent, third party scare ads?
JPL
@Shaun Appleby: What do big boy pants look like?
Benw
@SiubhanDuinne: LOL. Or East Vegas for the hip set.
Peale
@redshirt:” This country is defined my immigration like no other nation in the history of the world. ”
Except for, I don’t know, Canada, Brazil, Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, Chile, that hodgepodge of moving parts that is northeast India, pick a Caribbean island, too. I think you’re confusing immigration with “Scandinavians moved there”.
Ruckus
@redshirt:
It is critical to not forget that one descends from immigrants, especially in such a young country with the history we have. But if you were born here you are a citizen of this country. Full stop. You most likely are a descendant of immigrants but you are not one. Why do we need to redefine words on this?
redshirt
@Peale: Every American and Australasian nation is a country of immigrants, by definition.
Warren Terra
I think it’s especially funny he said it in Scotland. Because of his many golf developments, Trump is a fairly major figure in Scotland and Ireland, and is despised in both.
redshirt
@Ruckus: Because it’s important that Americans remember this fact, when it’s obvious we don’t.
schrodinger's cat
@redshirt: My argument is not over semantics but over legal status. Take for example the case of the illegal immigrants who have been living and working here for years even decades at times may think of themselves as Americans but the law does not, and that makes all the difference.
Kay
@Keith G:
Sherrod Brown had this on the front page of the local paper today:
This has been the holy grail for liberal Democrats since Bush passed the prescription drug plan. I’m glad they’re hitting it, because they can use it against Rob Portman in the ’16 Senate race and it gives Clinton something to run on with seniors. Good job. The paper got reactions from local seniors and they want a government plan.
Shaun Appleby
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Good question. The infamous ratf*cker Roger Stone is apparently advising Trump.
One is pressed to imagine a worse nightmare for Jeb’s campaign in the short-term.
Gin & Tonic
@redshirt: What is my viewpoint? It is that the way one experiences life in the US, and the way the US views one, is substantially different, depending on whether one’s ancestors walked over from Siberia, or sailed over on the Mayflower, or sailed over during the potato blight, or sailed over under the DP act, or rode up in a truck trailer from Mexico. To say “everyone is an immigrant” attempts to erase those very real differences.
Omnes Omnibus
@JPL: Like this.
Botsplainer
Speaking of revulsion, I watched a woman intentionally pick up and purchase a jar of Miracle Whip in the grocery tonight.
redshirt
@schrodinger’s cat: Well, like I said I’m not talking literally unless you actually are an immigrant. I’m emphasizing more of a state of mind, one that helps welcome actual new immigrants into this country. As voters, we should all empathize with immigrants because of our own pasts.
Ruckus
@Peale:
Good point. We are not an exceptional nation re: immigrants. People leave a place for a better place, for any number of reasons. Jobs, weather, politics or lack of them are but a few. They have been doing this for ever. We are just one stop in this process. Why I’ve even known americans who moved to other countries, the fiends.
redshirt
@Gin & Tonic: And I’d push back to say that even if your family has been here for a hundred years it’s hugely beneficial to remember your immigrant background and avoid the contempt exemplified by Republicans that this is “Our” country and “outsiders” are not welcome.
Helen
Does anyone know if Erick Erickson is one of the moderators at next week’s debate? This morning he tweeted (sorry I don’t tweet so I can’t link)
“I intend to ask each POTUS candidate next week if they’d support a gov’t shutdown if that’s what it took to shut down Planned Parenthood.”
raven
Big moon coming!
Omnes Omnibus
@raven: I thought it was “Bad Moon Rising.”
Ruckus
@redshirt:
Who is this we you speak of? Most people that read/comment on this blog? Most americans? Wingnuts?
Gin & Tonic
@raven: Same as every other full moon.
Shaun Appleby
@Helen: It’s his own Red State cattle-call.
Omnes Omnibus
@redshirt: There is a difference between remembering one’s immigrant background (as in nation of immigrants) and saying that one is an immigrant if one was actually born here.
schrodinger's cat
@redshirt
I can agree with this. BTW how is the great state of Maine?
redshirt
@Ruckus: Fuck it. Fuck outsiders. America uber ailes.
redshirt
@Omnes Omnibus: Yes, a wise, observant point. Maybe I’m trying to say something more profound? And failing, apparently.
Helen
@Shaun Appleby:
Thanks
schrodinger's cat
@Omnes Omnibus: Yes that exactly what I mean.
Keith G
@redshirt:
First sentence: Maybe, but historically there have other societies that have been more cosmopolitan that we have managed.
Second sentence: Of course, but that in no way should imply a lack of tight regulation with an eye to what the needs of our current and future conditions will demand.
Our immigration policies have always been a reflection of what our needs were.
For our first 150 years, we were severely under-populated. Our wide open welcome of most Whites and our evil kidnapping of Africans was a response. We even eagerly let the Chinese in until the rail roads were built – then really wished they would all go away. Part of my roots, the Irish, were welcomed in so they could be cannon fodder in Grant’s push towards Richmond. Another part, the Hungarians, were called “Beet Hunkies” because so many of them were let in to work the fields in Ohio etc before Midwesterners found they could tolerate Mexicans.
All this is to say that our economy is going through yet again a major shift – this time away from labor intensive resource extraction and industrial manufacturing. We still need immigration, but now it is going to be of a different type of immigration in different amounts…and I am not sure we know what the right answers are.
But the conversation needs to continue without castigating the assumed movies of folks who are feeling out ideas that are humane and thoughtful but just not the same as yours.
Ruckus
@redshirt:
I know some actual immigrants. The ones who took the test that most of us couldn’t pass without studying, and I think your including you and me in that group is wrong because it diminishes the work they put in to be accepted, while all I did was be ejected kicking and screaming from my mom. Those who are arguing with you including me, have made the point that one should not forget their roots, but in many cases those roots were maybe immigrants as well. And besides I’m supposed to have some NA blood in there along with the other 57 varieties. Does that make me not an immigrant? No, it’s my aforementioned birth that does.
Immigration is an important issue and many of our best and brightest over the last few hundred yrs have been immigrants. All of the people who signed the Constitution were. But I’m not. We don’t have to forget them, we should be honoring immigrants, but let’s not confuse the two.
redshirt
@schrodinger’s cat: Maine is being fucked daily by the wingnut LePage. It’s amazing to see it in real time.
TriassicSands
Has anyone ever heard Trump say that there is anything he wouldn’t be “great” at? Merely good or even below average. All I ever hear out of his gaping maw is how incredible he is…at everything.
He probably thinks he’s the world’s most humble person.
Ruckus
@redshirt:
Wow. Just Wow.
Way to make your point.
Have you actually read anything I’ve posted?
Keith G
@Kay: Indeed. That is a good thing.
Poopyman
@JPL:
That would be awesome.
ETA: Screw it. gimme a sec
redshirt
@Ruckus: lol. Have you? Yes, you’ve got me on semantics! I was born in this country and thus am not Immigrant and thus I am an AMERICAN and go to hell if you’re not!
I get it. You’re defined by borders.
gelfling545
@Cacti: And your reply when you were specifically asked about addressing points was
Which point in particular did that address?
Omnes Omnibus
@Poopyman: Asked and answered.
Ruckus
@redshirt:
I see that you haven’t.
Poopyman
@Omnes Omnibus: I was thinking more like this.
Omnes Omnibus
@redshirt: You seem to be going off the rails a bit here.
schrodinger's cat
@redshirt: I was shocked to see him reelected. The Republican party was not that insane when I lived in Maine (late 90s and early to mid aughts)
Omnes Omnibus
@Poopyman: I cede you the field, sir. I am defeated.
Davis X. Machina
Hector St. John de Crèvecœur, in his Letters from an American Farmer, summed it up for all immigrants — Ubi panis, ibi patria.
Keith G
@Omnes Omnibus: I actually envisioned something more like this
Edit: Yeah, Poopy wins on points
Poopyman
@Botsplainer: Eating it [1] is only one of its many uses.
([1] e.g.On (off?) a sandwich.)
schrodinger's cat
@Davis X. Machina: Translation for the Latin impaired?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Botsplainer: I just threw up in my mouth a bit.
Davis X. Machina
@schrodinger’s cat: Where the bread is, is the homeland.
JPL
@Poopyman: Both yours and Omnes were pretty good. The problem with your link though is that’s a big boy shirt. It might be interesting though, if Jeb bombs the debate, to send him a shirt and say next time wear both your big boy pants and shirt.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@schrodinger’s cat: I had a semester and half twenty odd years ago, I’m gonna guess, “wherever there is (I find) bread, that is my country”?
wasabi gasp
@schrodinger’s cat: I am in ur place eatin your foods.
Gin & Tonic
@schrodinger’s cat: I have bread; let’s party.
redshirt
@Omnes Omnibus: As an American, is that not my right?
Omnes Omnibus
@redshirt: Sure, knock yourself out.
Poopyman
@JPL: Well no. Perhaps it’s not the best image of Big Boy, but he has a tee shirt under those Big Boy overalls.
This is a little better, but frankly I can’t find a pic that really shows the distinction.
redshirt
@Omnes Omnibus: “nation of immigrants” my ass. We’re all Americans here, right?
Omnes Omnibus
@redshirt: I am staying away from personal anecdotes.
White Trash Liberal
@Kay:
I’m not buying your argument. H1-B Visas are one aspect of a total approach. Bernie pivoted off that program to stoke populist concerns about Wall Street. That is not the message I want to hear.
A little self reference. I am the son of an Irish immigrant. I grew up in poor communities composed of various migrant sub groups, from Gypsies to Carnies to Latinos. When I hear candidate Bernie critiquing one part of the program as Wall Street depressing wages for the common man, I hear a dogwhistle.
My opinion in immigration is clear. Enforce and expand laws punishing exploitation, and lift caps on all forms of immigration. Using the Wall Street scare about the H1-B program tells me he is willing to pivot on an issue ccentral to my life to stoke resentments.
I want a message of optimism and triumph. Especially about immigration. I’m fucking done with my community getting treated like petty criminals for daring to aspire.
Am I bothered by the intention of business interests to exploit immigrants? Hell yes. But I want to reform, protect and respect all avenuesof arriving in this country. Period.
redshirt
@Omnes Omnibus: “That time I, as an immigrant, removed a stump”.
schrodinger's cat
@Omnes Omnibus: I would love to hear your personal anecdotes. Do go on. We already have bread, all we need is some wine.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodinger’s cat: You are trying to trick me.
redshirt
There might be a few Canadians and Australians but fuck those freaks!
schrodinger's cat
@Omnes Omnibus: No tricks, I am serious.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodinger’s cat: I am not taking the bait.
boatboy_srq
@D58826: Practicing Papism -um, uh, Catholicism.
Cervantes
@redshirt:
Care to elaborate? (Thanks.)
Are you quite sure?
What would aboriginal Australians, say, make of such an assertion?
redshirt
@Cervantes: Australia is like JV America.
Cervantes
@Shaun Appleby:
Stone and Bush were on the same side in Florida in 2000. My heart breaks to see them now at odds with each other.
I presume there will be — nor would I be surprised to see — a rapprochement in about a year or so.
Kay
@White Trash Liberal:
Well, that’s fine but focusing on Bernie Sanders as the opposition if your position is to “lift all caps” ignores that no one in Congress and no President has ever advocated lifting all caps.
Sanders is not wrong when he says “open borders” is the position of the Koch brothers. It is.
You can certainly argue that you support the same thing for different reasons but acting as if Bernie Sanders is opposing “liberals” or “Democrats” on immigration is not true. You’ll wait a long time if you’re waiting for Clinton or Obama to espouse the Koch view. They don’t share it. If Democrats get what they want reform will have a path to citizenship and different quotas and exemptions and if Republicans get what they want there will be additional visas that business interests want. The only question will be who gets more out of the deal.
I don’t oppose immigration reform, I actually think people have a human right to cross borders apart from rules, but I don’t kid myself about why conservatives and business interests support it. It isn’t because they’re honoring their roots.
Cervantes
@redshirt:
What’s “JV” about it?
redshirt
@Cervantes: And, need I? Some dude lives in a house in England that’s been a house for like a 1000 years and there’s a perceived legacy there with lots of history.
Whereas in the Americas – all of them – unless you’re a native (Apache Comanche Navajo etc) – there’s a much more abbreviated history for white Ex-European immigrants.
redshirt
@Cervantes:
lol everything? I don’t think Australians would even disagree.
Australia being wickedly racist of course, like America.
Cervantes
@redshirt:
I wondered about your arithmetic, that’s all.
Cervantes
@redshirt:
My mistake. Do carry on!
redshirt
@Cervantes: 400 years?
Kay
@White Trash Liberal:
These are the categories Obama wants to change on immigration. They’re narrow, and they’re employment based. He starts with the obligatory “nation of immigrants” frame, but this is by no means “bring me your tired..” unless everyone who arrived at Ellis Island was also a STEM graduate.
These are rule changes and streamlining and a focused effort to bring certain groups of people. The big piece, the “liberal” piece is the path to citizenship for people who are here.
You’ll note too there is a specific mention on preferences for US workers- Obama actually uses the word “protect”. Sanders says the same thing.
Misterpuff
@PaulW: I’d pay a dollar for that.
Elaine Benes
@dogwood:
Spot on.
Mr Benes and I winter every year in Mexico, as do a (surprising) number of other lily-white gringos. By my estimation, 90% are on the liberal end of the political spectrum. There are active Democrats Abroad groups around the country.
Rarely do we come across a conservative.
Pie Happens (opiejeanne)
@redshirt: A bit closer. One branch of my family has been here since 1612. Before that the family lived in the same neighborhood not far from London from about 1066 until then.
I’m sure others can claim a longer stay in this country.
Pie Happens (opiejeanne)
@Elaine Benes: I met one in Paris last September, a Frenchman who sang me the praises of Bill O’Reilly. I was a bit stunned.
Or did I misunderstand and you meant Americans living abroad are all liberals? Oh duh, that’s what you meant.
Another Holocene Human
@Cacti:
Too late for this thread, but the answer is obviously “on a giant pillow of his money”.
Another Holocene Human
@PaulW:
And then the ethnic cleansing started.
Another Holocene Human
@redshirt: I think there’s a 10 KYA exclusion that would cover all of them … except the Navajo and the Azteki, famous wanderers. :)
Another Holocene Human
@redshirt: They don’t forget. It’s why they are so racist and defensive. The land claims that made millions of white Americans either middle class or wealthy were based on horrific crimes. Force, or fraud. Or both. Usually fraud, backed up by force.
And let’s not forget, some Americans were NOT immigrants. Their ancestors were brought here in chains.
boatboy_srq
@Pie Happens (opiejeanne): Wow. You met Jean-Marie LePen? That’s actually kinda cool…. oh, wait, you mean there are more like him?