Since the teaturd rump running the Republican Party has never fully accepted the 14th amendment, it shouldn’t surprise anyone that Trump and the other pureblood US Americans running for the nomination (like Carson) are coming out against birthright citizenship. This puts Cruz, Jindal, Rubio and even Santorum in a tough spot, because their purity of essence is shadowed by some doubt or other: Cruz’ no doubt painful and prolonged birth occurred in Canada to a US mom and foreign dad, Jindal’s first incoherent burbles were in the US when this anchor baby secured his Indian parents’ place in the fatherland, Marco Rubio’s first soft, seductive mews’ were the cries of an anchor baby for his Cuban parents, and icky Ricky uttered his first of many annoying mouth noises on US soil at a time when his pop was not a 100% Prime USDA Grade A citizen.
Aside from the obvious irony, what’s laughable is the horseshit standards by which the birthers judge these guys, because of course they have to explain away the possibility that any of them aren’t eligible for the Presidency. Here’s a taste of the justification for Jindal:
So the question comes up about Bobby Jindal’s parents. Both of them were in the United States on student visas. To me the real question is does the candidate have any divided allegiance. So if Jindal’s parents remained steadfastly identifying as Indians and he steadfastly identified as an Indian, even though he was born in the United States and was a citizen, he would not be eligible. Legitimately, he would not be eligible to be President. But given the fact that he changed his name after a character in “The Brady Bunch” — as American as it gets — I don’t think there’s any question in any of those candidates that there’s any dual allegiance.
If only Obama had changed his name to “Greg”, “Peter” or “Bobby”, we’d have avoided years of turmoil over his citizenship.
Update: Piyush just chucked out a stone from his glass house:
We need to end birthright citizenship for illegal immigrants.
— Gov. Bobby Jindal (@BobbyJindal) August 17, 2015
dedc79
What we’re witnessing in the GOP right now is that “And then they came for the . . . And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a …. ” poem, only they’re both the killer and “victim”.
NobodySpecial
I’m pulling for a miracle Jindal/Trump ticket, if only for the BJ and the Bear jokes.
Emily68
If Obama had changed to Marcia, I bet that wouldn’t have made the wing nuts happy.
Belafon
If he’d only stuck with Barry…
//
Cashill’s so full of shit the toilet clogs up before he sits down.
Punchy
This is great news for Florence Henderson.
Peale
Which is why I support nominating pop singer, Rain, for president. Not only did he change his name to something we can understand, he’s just what many parts of America need right now.
Peale
…however the governor’s insistence that all his fundraising dinners have both veg and non-veg options for guests has many wondering where his loyalties really are.
JPL
Jindal came out against birthright citizenship for undocumented immigrants. Let’s see how that works out for him.
Has Michelle Malkin weighed in yet?
Keith G
Jindal is a lower tier politician whose opinions and life experiences shouldn’t matter to any one save for those unfortunate souls whose state he has fucked up for lo these many years.
Fair Economist
I’m going to love pointing out that Trump, and many Republicans, think Marco Rubio shouldn’t be a citizen.
dp
We’re still almost a year away from even the official nomination. Can they keep up this standard of getting crazier every day, in a sort-of Moore’s law of wingnuttiness?
Big ole hound
Anchor Baby Jindal’s nationality is the very crux of what the GOP is railing against and it is beyond comprehension that he is the governor of a southern state.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I saw a clip of Trump spewing about anchor babies and he looked and sounded so mean and stupid that if I didn’t know better I’d swear that was how he finally decided to climb out of this clown car before it cost him too much money.
It was a clip of the O’Reilly show and he was all squinty eyed and that thing on his head seemed to have perched a bit lower and he really looked for all the world like a muppet/cabbage patch caricature of himself. Maybe Ailes had the lighting and camera set up that way (is it irresponsible to speculate…?)
WereBear
Oh, this is this kind of challenge their talents are made for!
scav
Didn’t a certain number of call-center workers in India adopt not only American names but entire backstories in order to not upset or frighten the critters on the other end while making their sales pitch?
Jeffro
@dp:
It’s like there’s no point in making predictions about any of it, because one or more of these klowns will blow right past anything we could dream up in an effort to out-insane each other. It’s terrific. I’ve never had so much fun needling my right-wing friends and relatives.
philpm
It really says a lot for how crazy you are when you are considered over the top by the likes of Jack Cashill.
PST
What if Obama’s first name had been Rahm? I hate the dual allegiance slur against Jews and want to part of it, but I have to wonder if these birthers would apply the same standard to someone born on U.S. soil of an Israeli father? Or would there be no possible conflict given the right wing view of the community of interest between the two countries.
CONGRATULATIONS!
The guy who would really be in trouble here, assuming he got any traction, which he won’t, is Cruz.
The other three anchor babies were born on US soil and those laws are pretty damn clear. Like it or not, they are “natural born” citizens.
Archon
Can somebody explain to me how the extremely conservative positions and viewpoints of about a third of the Republican party is fundamentally different then that of a fascist?
CONGRATULATIONS!
@PST: Lol Israelis are US Citizens dumbass. bible says so.
Another Holocene Human
@Keith G: They loathe him back in Louisiana. That’s why he’s run run runnin’ away from there.
Bobby Thomson
If the 2016 elections are a referendum on the 14th amendment . . . . Even with the likes of Tweety carrying water for them I’m not sure how Republicans recover. But I guess it preserves their House majority.
Oh, and Jindal is to the left of Trump on this. Trump wants to eliminate birthright citizenship for the children of legal aliens (like Jindal).
Jeffro
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Actually they are super-plus citizens…Bibi says so
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Archon: Yes, I can. Fascists believe in a strong central government that dictates all facets of a citizen’s life from cradle to grave, all citizens are for the glory of the state. There is no faction of the GOP that is for this. For example, it impinges on the “freedom” of the 1% to loot society at will for their own benefit. Fascism is anathema to moneymen.
The members – and I think it’s far more than one third – of the GOP you’re referring to are not fascists. They are nihilists or anarchists, depending on how active they want to be in undermining and then destroying the government of the United States.
Another Holocene Human
@scav: It was a plot point in SLUMDOG MILLIONAIRE.
philpm
It says a lot when your level of crazy has become too much for Jack Cashill.
Jeffro
@Bobby Thomson:
I don’t think the elections will be, but the GOP primary sure looks like a referendum on who stays and who goes (provided that they are brown, of course).
Watch as the next debate gets bogged down in a host of hypothetical situations:
(Moderator: “Senator Rubio…let’s say the father was half-American, half-Czech; the mother is pre-Obama-surrender Cuban; and the baby is born on the International Date Line, then wrapped in an American flag baby blanket after delivery: is the baby an American citizen?”
Rubio: “Which way was the ship going when it crossed the International Date Line?”) lol
Another Holocene Human
@PST: Liberals view it as disloyalty to American interests to serve the foreign policy needs of a foreign power, but conservatives see Netanyahu crawl up their ass and see a loyal dog.
One recalls that South Park episode about flattery: “huuuuuge American penis”.
They love anyone who gets right up their ass that way.
Another Holocene Human
FYWP, version two
@PST: Liberals view it as disloyalty to American interests to serve the foreign policy needs of a foreign power, but conservatives see Netanyahu crawl up their ass and see a loyal dog.
One recalls that South Park episode about flattery: “huuuuuge American p*n*s”.
They love anyone who gets right up their ass that way.
Anon
Ironically enough, Carson himself might be a target of the birther contingent, since their wacko misreading of the 14th Amendment also calls his citizenship into question (assuming he is too is descendant of someone born in the United States but to “non-citizen” parents who came across the border with the “aid” of a human trafficking operator, to be exploited as a cheap source of labor).
Another Holocene Human
So much ado about p3n15 p1ll5.
MattF
Maybe it’s time everyone was deported and we just start over from scratch.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
Believe it or not, Rick Perry has come out strongly in favor of the 14th Amendment.
Rick. Fucking. Perry.
Grumpy Code Monkey
Note he said, “end birthright citizenship for illegal immigrants“; obviously, birthright citizenship would still apply for babies born to parents who are here on student or work visas. And Cuban refugees, ’cause they’re different.
In all of this, nobody thinks about how to improve conditions in Mexico so that so many people wouldn’t be so desperate to come over (and make them a stronger trade partner to boot). Of course, that’s the mother of all “easier said than done” tasks, and I don’t have a clue where to start.
scav
@Another Holocene Human: Well then, are they in fact the breeding and training grounds for individuals of unquestioned single allegiance? Have we discovered an outsourced vaunted deep bench of still more R candidates? Is Jindal as escapee on a made for feel-good summer blockbuster or a prototype?
schrodinger's cat
@scav: That’s so 90s, now people just identify themselves as I am XYZ from Bangalore and so on. At least that’s been my experience.
Another Holocene Human
@CONGRATULATIONS!: That must be a special academic version of fascism that doesn’t reflect the real life fascism we’re all familiar with, where the big money pull the strings from the background and are never expected to “sacrifice” the way the proles are.
In fascism the common man is subsumed by the identity of the state, but this is not expected of the elites–far from it! And there was a huge row in academia when I was a kid over whether fascist states were more or less intrusive into the lives of their people than communist states, or whether this actually mattered, and so on. ETA: from what I gathered the conservative position was that communism was significantly more intrusive, and it did matter.
Cacti
Hmmm…this is a problem for The Donald also.
His mother Mary MacLeod Trump was a Scot.
His father’s parents were Germans.
So how is his US citizenship established?
Archon
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
What conservatives want rhetorically you might be right, but they are nihilists only when they are an opposition party. When they are in charge they surely believe in a extremely powerful and overarching federal government.
Also, playing out their positions on immigration and abortion to their logical conclusion would require a massive expansion of federal powers and authority.
schrodinger's cat
Why has Jindal sold his soul, with his milquetoast personality even a Fox gig is out of question and we all know that he is not going to win a single primary.
Another Holocene Human
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): And the GOP hates him for it. This whole season is killing me.
There are no reasonable GOP primary voters left.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): When you got nothin’, you got nothin’ to lose.
Though that is consistent with his last campaign, which is what helped kill it. A little kernel of decency in Governor Goodhair?
Another Holocene Human
@Grumpy Code Monkey: The Obama admin does have missions in Central America to try to make things better so they’ll stop running to the US (via Mexico) but it’s tough, underfunded, the locals distrust them for a variety of reasons, and the Republicans treat the whole thing like it’s a Communistical Plot.
Steppan
@Another Holocene Human:
Assumes facts not in evidence.
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): I remember last cycle he was for in-state tuition for Dreamers.
p.a.
@Big ole hound: Early life and education
Haley was born Nimrata Nikki Randhawa[1][2] in Bamberg, South Carolina, on January 20, 1972, to an Indian Sikh family. Her parents, Ajit Singh Randhawa and Raj Kaur Randhawa, are immigrants from Amritsar District, Punjab, India. She has two brothers, Mitti and Charan, and a sister, Simran, born in Singapore.
Oy. It’s a South Asian invasion!
Also too, with the concerns over ‘foreign loyalties’ shouldn’t Sanscrotum be required to denounce his obvious allegiance to the Pope (if he has not already, he should renounce any future possible conservative papas).
Snarki, child of Loki
The more serious issue is whether Cruz has renounced his CUBAN bloodright-citizenship he got via his father.
Does the GOP really want to nominate someone with dual US/Cuban citizenship?
lgerard
What is the over/under on the number of feuds and flame wars Trump can keep going at one time?
Another Holocene Human
@Steppan: Anderson voters, 1980.
Then American got Reaganized.
rst
Actually, one “birthright citizenship reform” proposal would “reinterpret” the 14th amendment to require that at least one parent is a legal permanent resident of the US for the child to be a citizen… in which case, Jindal’s parents’ student visas might not actually qualify him. To add spice to the gumbo, this proposal was offered by David Vitter, Senator from [bum bum BUMMM…] Louisiana.
You could not make this stuff up.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/immigration-lawyer-birthright-citizenship
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@schrodinger’s cat: It is just weird. He made a play for the Morning Joe/Politico set with his “we can’t just be the stupid party” speech, but they were still infatuated with the Jersey Bully Boy– I think he took his about two or three months early, can’t remember exactly– so he seems to have consciously decided to be the stupidest candidate in the race. And no matter that it keeps losing, he keeps plugging away. People whose retirement plan is buying lottery tickets have a better strategy.
Archon
@Another Holocene Human:
Anyone who voted GOP in the 04, 08, and 2012 general election isn’t a rational voter.
By my back of the napkin calculations that’s about 40 percent of the electorate.
NonyNony
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
That’s at the extreme end of fascism – totalitarian fascism. There are other grades of fascism and what they have in common is a mixture of right-wing social conservatism (and usually racism, nationalism, and a strong ethno-centrism) mixed with left-wing socialist ideas run through a populist lens.
Of all of the candidates running right now, the one who is flirting with fascism is Trump. He’s running on that ethno-centrist/racist/nationalist idea but he’s also got some weird left-leaning ideas poking around in there (like standing up for Social Security and Medicare). It’s because he’s running a populist campaign with a laser-like focus on pushing his poll numbers higher each week, so it isn’t like he’s got some kind of agenda beyond getting votes. But that’s the kind of fascism that we’d get in America – racist, patriotic, and from a guy who is going to tell you you can have something for nothing but you don’t have to worry about “those people” getting it too.
Steppan
@Another Holocene Human:
That’s fair. I feel like the original statement needs the qualifier, though.
randy khan
@Grumpy Code Monkey: I noticed that, too. And, what’s even funnier is that you *can’t* end birthright citizenship for illegal immigrants since they don’t have it in the first place.
Of course, what he really meant to say was “. . . for children of illegal immigrants” but he’s not paying enough to have his Twitter feed proofread.
Another Holocene Human
@Archon: Just spitballin’ about the likelihood of further crossover votes. Since the Southern Strategy started it seems to have always favored the GOP. I think there are some regional GOP, national sit out or vote Dem voters out there who might eventually see reason. But most D growth will have to come from new voters and infrequent voters.
And the occasional road to Damascus moment by individual conservatives. “Was blind, but now I see.”
jl
Thanks to mistermix for info on Carson. That makes about half of the GOP pres hopefuls against birthright citizenship:
Against:
Trump
Walker
Graham
Jindal
Paul
Santorum
Christie
Carson
If you only consider the ‘serious’ candidates who have a shot, half are against.
Serious
Against or leaning against:
Trump
Walker
For:
Jeb!?
Rubio
For and Against:
Kasich
GOP outreach continues. I like it.
Paul in KY
@Archon: No cool uniforms, no compulsory draft to cure unemployment….uh, well I guess that’s about it.
scav
@schrodinger’s cat: Fink, I’d worked it up into quite the movie. Could I maybe maybe keep it as all the plots seem to be dated retreads anymore anyhoo?
Miss Bianca
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=880045915364146&set=a.100840766618002.1846.100000762374540&type=1
apparently you are not the only one who thinks so…and my only comment would be: at least the Muppet character’s vainglory and self-importance and manipulative bs was kind of endearing…
NonyNony
@Archon:
45.7% of the popular vote went to John McCain in 2008. After 8 disastrous years of GWB, McCain looking like a moron for a year leading up to the election, and Sarah Palin being selected as his running mate.
Until circumstances prove otherwise, I would assume that any candidate – even Trump – that manages to get the nomination will get at least 45.7% of the final vote tally. And, frankly, with 8 years out of office, I would expect any Republican this time around to beat Romney’s 47.2% total as well. Even Trump would probably manage to get 48% given that GOP voters will be hungry for a win, Democratic voters will likely be somewhat more complacent than 4 years ago, and that the mythical independent voter is most likely to vote when they feel like a “change in leadership” is needed and less likely to vote when they want to “stay the course” – so I’d expect more will turn out this time for the GOP than for Democrats.
Punchy
@lgerard: I’d say 3.5. And the juice on the over is at least -140.
boatboy_srq
@Fair Economist: Rubio, Cruz, Jindal…. plus there’s a measurable number that think Fiorina shouldn’t be qualified because technically (Tenther logic here) she shouldn’t be able to vote.
gnomedad
How can you be born an immigrant?
Paul in KY
@schrodinger’s cat: Trying to get a sinecure at the Heritage Institute or one of those BS colleges.
Belafon
@randy khan:
He’s purposefully confusing the issue. A lot of people believe that the children of illegal immigrants are illegal.
Paul in KY
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think he’s desperate to have some issue that differentiates him from the herd of orcs. He’s really, really desperate, IMO.
Weaselone
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Germany from the end of the Weimar Republic through the end of World War II does not fit the definition of Fascism you provided. The Krupps and many other wealthy German industrialists were quite supportive of the Nazi’s and did quite well for themselves under the Nazi regime. Might have had something to due with the strong central regime funneling cash into their pockets and liquidating the socialists.
By your definition were there actually ever any fascist states or parties of any real significance?
Paul in KY
@p.a.: I’m not sure he has any particular allegiance to THIS pope :-)
boatboy_srq
@Archon: Not possible. Certainly not practical. Feature-not-bug.
Patrick
Can they possible get any dumber with their rhetoric? So according to this person, as long as they get an American sounding name (whatever that is), they can run for President. No way Barack Obama, your name was apparently not allowed per the hysterical right-wingers. So much for freedom and the American way. Can you imagine other countries forcing their immigrants to change their names to whatever the local people’s names are?
But since the real immigrants are the white folks, shouldn’t we all be forced to have names decided by native Americans?
Archon
@NonyNony:
I do think that due to demographic changes (based on who is turning 18 and who is aging out of the electorate) the GOP voting floor shrinks by about half a percent each year. So if 45.7 percent was the “floor in 08 it will be 41 percent in 2016, which is basically 40.
Belafon
@gnomedad: The real answer is that immigration is a political issue, not a physical one. The law defines what is an immigrant, and inside that, who is a legal and not legal immigrant.
Villago Delenda Est
These people hate logic, they hate reason, they hate The Enlightenment, they hate doing “what works”.
They want their fucked up imaginary belief system that has nothing to do with reality. And they’ll doublethink around their own supposedly inviolable standards to do it.
They are classic fuckheads, and they do not deserve the time of day from anyone.
Put them on a rocketship headed to the sun.
OzarkHillbilly
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Than why do moneymen do so well for themselves under fascism? Not saying they are fascists, rather I don’t think they care as long as it isn’t socialism/communism.
Tree With Water
@Belafon: If he’d stuck with ‘Barry’, he wouldn’t be president today. And for good reason, I might add..
p.a.
Most of the (‘Aryan’) Big Money Boyz accomodated themselves nicely to Adolf’s 20+ year picnic. They would only get in trouble if they started nitpicking about Nazi profit skimming. As long as there wasn’t total sexual debauchery by der Fuhrer’s buddies as well, theft, embezzelment etc. was ok. Adolf was a bit of a prude.
Paul in KY
@Weaselone: Owners of non-service economy manufacturing concerns that made tanks, guns, barbed wire, uniforms, shells, grenades, military aircraft, generic nutty weapons, etc.loved the regime, until about 1942 or thereabouts.
Archon
@Paul in KY:
LOL I’m not sure if a compulsory draft is a tenet of fascism but if it is, then yeah that is a major difference with most conservatives.
I do think most of the conservative elite oppose a draft because it makes it much harder to get the country to back wars fought on esoteric ideological reasons.
Matt McIrvin
@Belafon: And here’s the interesting question: if illegal immigrant status is inherited, do we do that retroactively? And how many generations back do we go?
Most European countries don’t have location-based birthright citizenship. Guess what: those people don’t just go away. They end up with multigenerational populations of non-citizens whose grandparents were born there as non-citizens, growing up in the country. And naturally they have trouble assimilating, and there’s all sorts of cultural friction, and some of them radicalize in various ways. There was a time when the United States prided itself on not doing this sort of thing; now we evidently view the situation with envy.
boatboy_srq
@Grumpy Code Monkey:
Feature-not-bug again. Having poor neighbors makes Good Righteous Xtian Caucasian Hetero Patriotic Real Ahmurrcans™ at once feel better about their greatness (and their nation’s greatness, though that’s clearly second) and have more 2nd Amendment Remedying target practice at the top of the wall. Added plus: the agricultural labor and household staff are just that much more disposable.
It’s odd to me, not that nobody thinks about how to make Mexico more attractive a place to live, but that if Mexico’s economy improved to the point that its labor pool stayed put the US would still find someplace from which to import the replacement undocumented labor. How many Asians arrive by container now? How many more would come – and from where else? Fixing the problem in one place just shifts the migration pattern to others and changes the Other of the Day to something different.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@gnomedad:
You’re born to the wrong (ie non-European) parents. SATSQ.
boatboy_srq
@Paul in KY: You don’t think baseball caps, flannel shirts and cockroach stompers are cool?
OzarkHillbilly
@schrodinger’s cat: Facts not in evidence: Does he even have a soul?
schrodinger's cat
@gnomedad: When your citizenship can be determined by blood (your parents’ country of origin) and not by where you were born. Doesn’t it work that way in most European countries. Birthright citizenship is not as common in the old world.
Matt McIrvin
@Grumpy Code Monkey:
That was one of the stated goals of NAFTA, wasn’t it? The agreement that both the left and right love to hate so much?
Belafon
@Matt McIrvin: I hope every attempt to change birthright citizenship gets beaten down with a nail spiked baseball bat, because it will create legal second class citizens.
boatboy_srq
@Another Holocene Human: Isn’t that part of what drives the whingeing against foreign aid? If the US stopped sending all those countless of billions to Undeserving Peoples, then they’d stay at home and wallow in their righteous squalor instead of constantly tromping across the border to take Good Patriotic Righteous Hetero Xtian Real Ahmurrcans’
livesdaughtersjobs.boatboy_srq
@Matt McIrvin: It’s all about “why” with NAFTA. The Left hates it because it failed at making Mexico a worthwhile trade partner; the working-class Right hates it because all the jobs went elsewhere via Mexico; and the 1%er Right hates it because the jobs didn’t go elsewhere fast enough.
Chris
@Another Holocene Human:
And – from the conservative point of view – that’s correct. If you’re one of the existing elites, fascism will not substantially disturb you. What’s the worst that’ll happen? You’ll get slapped with a few extra taxes and some more regulations. Under communism, on the other hand, the government intends to completely expropriate you, abolish all your privileges, and reduce you to the level of one of the… common folk. You won’t necessarily be one of those lynched in the revolution, but all the things that made you special and above the herd will be gone.
Obviously, there are some limits to what you can do under fascism – you can’t be outright seditious, or you’ll damn well get slapped down – but as long as you don’t stand out, you’ll be fine.
If you’re one of the existing conservative elites, that is.
If you’re one of the Undesirables, it’s a whole different story, and “intrusive” is one of the words – one of the milder ones – that describes what the fascist state’s relationship to you will be.
Bostondreams
Um..if they have birthright citizenship, then they are,in fact, NOT immigrants, legal or otherwise. Bobby Jindal is, indeed, not smart.
MikeS
@Grumpy Code Monkey: If these bozos actually implemented this everyone would have to prove they are a legal birthright citizen (not just the “brown” people) by having a birth certificate from at least one parent, grandparent, etc back to a documented “legal” immigrant or to 1785 (or maybe just back to 1868.
This is what the whole 14th amendment was designed to prevent from happening to ex-slaves. Now they want to make everyone go through this hassle! Of course these people don’t think it will be any problem for people like them.
I can see the look on their faces when the nice INS agent says “I’m sorry you can’t find the proper birth certificate for your parents, your ass is going back to England or Germany or wherever but you can’t stay here.
sukabi
@NobodySpecial: that might be difficult as Trump is both their first AND second choices.
jl
@Chris: Your (Edit: sorry, I guess you were giving the conservative point of view) analysis assumes that the coalition of ‘existing elites’ remains stable, which does not happen over any length of time.
I remember the debates about this when Reagan era apologists for fascism tried to make the distinction between ‘authoritarian’ and ‘totalitarian’ regimes in support of South American regimes tinged with fascism. You would be ‘OK’ if you stayed in your place that the ruling government and business rulers determined for you, and you did not meddle in the political sphere.
Well, ha ha, elite or not, as squabbles and competition of government/crony capitalist goodies proceeded apace, the definition of ‘political sphere’ became very fluid, and the supposedly limited authoritarian control of your life could become deadly and totalitarian at any time.
I remember in college, some right wingers finally trying to win the argument by saying ‘well, when you think about, ANYTHING can be political, can’t it” so, fair game for the generals. And they thought they had a good argument while sane people laughed at them.
Joel
Yeah, Rick Perry. I’m sure he’s said plenty of dumb shit to atone for that since, but Rick fucking Perry is your moral compass…
WereBear
Would England or Germany or wherever take a person back? I know the UK has some rough rules about emigrating there from somewhere not a former colony.
Then again, shouldn’t we qualify? Are they holding grudges?
PurpleGirl
@schrodinger’s cat: I believe that’s how it is in Germany. And it has created problems for people of Turkish ancestry who went to Germany as guest workers. I believe there is now two generations of younger people of Turkish parents born in Germany.
schrodinger's cat
@Chris: Do you see the FX drama, The Americans? Soviet Union may be the evil empire but I don’t see anything noble about Reagan’s policies and rhetoric either.
schrodinger's cat
@PurpleGirl: I think they can become citizens if they want, but it is not automatic, you have to file an application, jump through hoops etc.
boatboy_srq
@MikeS: There’s probably an entire field of legal studies devoted to the unintended consequences of Tentherism. But there are reams of information on consequences of other not-particularly-thought-through GOTea policy planks and that hasn’t stopped many of those either.
boatboy_srq
@WereBear: We should, and they do. Go figure. I’ve been pursuing a Tier 2 visa for about three years (I don’t qualify for Tier 1: the family I have there is too distant, not married to a UK/Commonwealth citizen, and my work is not QUITE economically-critical). EU and Commonwealth citizens have a much easier time of it.
karen marie
@scav: Typically, all call center workers, both domestic and overseas, have made-up names to avoid after-hours or post-working there issues. In fact, I dealt with one company about an issue that kept me on the phone with them for 14 hours troubleshooting a software issue. I crossed three shift changes, dealt with three different people, but the name they used to identify themselves to me remained the same for all three.
catclub
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
or at least the Book of Mormon.
karen marie
@Cacti: How is anyone’s unless they are of the First people? All of us trace back to immigrants, obvs.
catclub
@Joel: yeah, Rick Perry is hoping that this will all pass. How old will he be in 8 years?
randy khan
@Belafon: I guess I don’t think he’s that clever, but it’s certainly possible it was intentional.
NorthLeft12
If the Repubs get their way I can see them using this in a selective manner to deny US citizenship to whomever they choose just like their ancestral soulmates back in the 1850s.
Good grief, they are an odious bunch, aren’t they?
catclub
@MikeS:
Tom Tancredo springs to mind,
Chris
@jl:
It gets tricker as time goes by, especially as squabbles emerge within the elites. But the fact remains that traditional elites have a better chance of holding their own if they support fascism than they would with an ideology that, right from the get-go, promises to expropriate them all as a class.
It’s why fascists can usually count on the support of existing elites if communism is perceived as a real possibility.
Chris
@schrodinger’s cat:
I never ranked Reagan’s policies or Reagan’s America above the Soviet Union, nor did I even bring them up. I of course denounce Stalin and the broccoli mandate.
Tracy Ratcliff
@Grumpy Code Monkey:
The best estimates say that slightly more people are moving from the US to Mexico than the other way. While the headlines are all about drug violence in the Mexican Northwest, the Gulf Coast states are doing very well with oil and tourism, Mexico City is booming, tequila is trendy so states where agave grows are begging for workers, and the maquiladora towns are starting to be real cities instead of company towns for the foreign-owned factories.
Most of the Hispanic immigration nowadays is people fleeing Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala.
jl
@Chris: I think only elites that can in general pass muster as predisposed to be sympathetic to intolerant chauvinistic nationalism, and controlled economic system that usually results in a government/crony capitalist partnership, and use of violent corporatism as the means for social decision making and control.
So, that would usually include wealthy, corporate business leaders, certain sections of law enforcement. Other social elites need not apply, or, at least must face a rigorous individual examination before approval.
I don’t see how it is that much different from communism, except different groups are given the benefit of the doubt, and others are not, and some are under permanent suspicion and oppression.
Edit: to be concise like I should be in comments, the thugs running things in both systems know who their friends are, and act accordingly.
karen marie
@OzarkHillbilly: “Neo-fascism usually includes ultranationalism, populism, anti-immigration policies or, where relevant, nativism, anti-communism, anti-marxism, anti-anarchism and opposition to the parliamentary system and liberal democracy.”
I would say the current GOP meets this definition.
jl
@Tracy Ratcliff: I can believe that, but would be interested in links to read. I think I’ve read that border security has tightened up enough so that that periodic migration of undocumented workers is a lot of hassle now, and they usually prefer to choose staying on one side or other of border for much longer periods than before.
jl
@karen marie: I think fascism and a certain kind of moneymen are natural allies. Fascism is not in any way liberal and certainly does not believe in the virtues of a free market. Generally, fascism believes in an ordered controlled and planned economy, but does it in partnership with business, particularly in partnership with large crony capitalist cartels and monopolies.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@schrodinger’s cat:
I think that in some countries, you don’t even get priority — you have to apply for citizenship on the same basis as anyone else who doesn’t already live there, which seems ass-backwards to me.
Omnes Omnibus
@NorthLeft12: They will not get their way.
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): I remember reading that about Ireland. For example, an Irish American whose family may have migrated generations ago, has a higher priority than some one born in Ireland but without any Irish ancestry.
Chris
@jl:
Not everyone’s in tight with the new regime, but which elites were actually targeted under Nazi rule? Unless we’re counting Jewish people with money as one of the elites, which I wasn’t doing but I suppose you could… The impression I get is that there were a lot of elites in the situation of the Wehrmacht high command, which grumbled because it didn’t like being ordered around by a blue collar ex-NCO pipsqueak who they didn’t think could run the army worth a damn, but for all the friction remained a working part of the fascist system – not enemies of the state.
Oh, completely. But that’s what I’m saying. Each system gives different groups the benefit of the doubt, and others not. If you’re one of these “different groups,” it makes a big difference to you whether it’s fascism or communism. And for many conservative groups – big capitalists (at least those who aren’t Jewish), aristocracy, military leadership – they do better under fascism.
Which is why it’s no surprise that people who’re obsessed with getting the gub’mint out of the business of the poor oppressed rich people would say fascism is “less intrusive.”
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Tracy Ratcliff:
That’s what I remember reading, too. That scary, scary influx of children illegally immigrating were from Central America because of violence and crime in their home countries.
You know things are bad when parents would rather send their kids to sneak across the border of a foreign country than keep them at home. They might at least survive the border crossing.
Matt McIrvin
@Another Holocene Human: Many conservatives during the Cold War seemed deeply emotionally invested in proving that, while Stalin and Hitler were both bad, Stalin was worse than Hitler and that this fact had been buried by pinko academics.
The extreme expression of it was the Pat Buchanan-style implication that we had actually been on the wrong side in World War II. But even the ones who didn’t say that seemed to have a lot of resentment built up about it.
The American radical-ish left was, in fact, slow to realize that Stalin was even an unusually bad guy, and that’s probably what they were building on. But that “worse than Hitler” threshold was a particular preoccupation of the right.
Peale
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): The children I believe were seeking relatives who were already here. They weren’t being dumped.
The unreported thing about those gangs was that they were actually a great export from the US, the unintentional consequences of ethnic based prison prison gangs in the US. One was founded in California prison and the other in Texas. Yay!
Thoughtful Today
…
Foreign born Republican Ted Cruz demands American Presidency because … his Dad’s prophecies …
[sigh]
Paul in KY
@boatboy_srq: Guess it depends on who’s wearing them ;-)
Paul in KY
@Joel: Wow. Rick is really desperate. Nice quotes, though.
Chris
@Peale:
And FBI advisers in these countries have told the local governments to deal with it by passing “mano dura” laws that consist of hitting hard, locking up lots of gang members, and investing nothing in rehabilitation programs.
As a result, not only to the gangsters have no new skills (or, therefore, anywhere else to go but back to their gang) when they get out of prison, but they also come out having recruited a ton of other prisoners to the cause.
boatboy_srq
@Paul in KY: LOL.
Cervantes
@Matt McIrvin:
Can you elaborate? Who, and how slow? Thanks.
Cervantes
What “glass house”? His parents were not here illegally.
boatboy_srq
@Cervantes: They weren’t citizens either.
Matt McIrvin
@Cervantes: Eh, might as well retract instead of getting into a fight over this.
My impression was that most of the people who were in the US Communist Party back in the Thirties and Forties ended up playing this anguished contest of “how early did you realize?” kind of like liberal hawks bailing on the Iraq war. And of course HUAC and McCarthy went apeshit over it as if the country was still shot through with subversive agents, but it was way after the fact.
Cervantes
@boatboy_srq:
So what? How is that fact relevant?
Cervantes
@Matt McIrvin:
If those are your options I withdraw my question.
boatboy_srq
@Cervantes: Jindal is getting behind throwing out birthright citizens along with their non-citizen parents. By his own standard, he’d have been deported already.
schrodinger's cat
@Chris: You didn’t, I was just asking the question out of curiosity, I love that show. Its spy drama set in the 80s and the protagonists are deep cover KGB agents posing as ordinary Americans.
Cervantes
@boatboy_srq:
Is that what he said? Above he is quoted thus: “We need to end birthright citizenship for illegal immigrants.“
Chris
@schrodinger’s cat:
I’ve heard about it and heard good things, but haven’t gotten to it yet – sorry! It’s kind of nice that someone’s making a spy show about the other side’s spies for once, especially since it gives you a pretty good reasons to keep filming and setting it in America.
Vanya
As bad as conservatives were before WWI, they did actually sacrifice themselves and their children for their causes. All of Kaiser Wilhelm’s sons saw action in WWI, for example, some wounded gravely. The British upper classes were decimated. Austrian aristocrats were similarly affected. Fascism could be seen as a cynical way for the elites to shift more of the burden onto the middle and lower classes.
boatboy_srq
@Cervantes: That is what he said. And unless his parents obtained citizenship or permanent residency before their student visas expired, then they would have fallen under the “illegal” category. The Reichwing is all in favor of student and guest worker visas – provided that the bearers go back home when their term is up. Jindal’s parents clearly didn’t do that, and having a child who was a US Citizen probably helped them stay.
Tommy
There is a story I tell about immigrants. I always lived in small towns. Then I moved to DC. The first place I worked across from what was a Salvadoran place. Then my roommate, girlfriend was from Korea. So many things I learned about food and culture from those folks. Immigrants.
I view them as an added plus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don’t even have the energy to tell you all that market and that lady taugt me about the world around me in such a positive manner.