Today in the Annals of Floriduh Man: The FBI has arrested a major online ISIS/jihad promotion presence/player. He’s a 20 year old Jewish American man from Florida… Joshua Ryne Goldberg, aka Australi Witness, was impersonating an ISIS inspired Lebanese refugee, who did NOT actually exist, living in Perth, Australia. Mr. Goldberg was arrested for providing planning to a Federal informant on how to make a pressure cooker bomb**.
The intended target seems to have been the Kansas City 9-11 Memorial and the intention was for the attack to take place yesterday. Mr. Goldberg is claiming that he wanted the actual would be bomber to blow himself up while preparing the bomb. And if that failed he intended to tip off the cops before the actual attack – so positive character points for potential civic engagement and responsibility. Mr. Goldberg has also claimed, through his online persona, that he was responsible for motivating the two Arizona men who attacked The Draw the Prophet Muhammed event in Garland, TX back in May. While Mr. Goldberg gets the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, I expect that the Feds will throw the book at him. Texas might also decide to go after him for the Garland, TX attack too. Some times the truth really is stranger than fiction.
* For the non Yiddish speakers at Balloon Juice a shonda for the goyim (literally a tragedy or embarrassment in front of the gentiles) is the label traditionally placed on someone who is Jewish who does something really, really, really stupidly embarrassing in public.
** This provides a whole new use for the “crock pot craziness” category…
Tim C.
I admire the level of cultural self-awareness that term implies. If only American culture could rise to that level.
Tom Levenson
Because nothing says happy new year like inciting your fellow humans to mayhem, murder and folly. A shonda indeed.
pamelabrown53
Shonda or no shonda, I’m glad I wasn’t politically active when I was 20; I made so many mistakes just navigating adolescence to adulthood. Still, this has to score high in the annals of poor/no judgement.
Allan
It appears that he also collaborated with Breitbart bottom-feeder Milo Yiannopoulos to “expose” Shaun King as secretly white.
dr. bloor
He’s like a mall cop version of a Mossad agent.
Lavocat
Oy gevalt! The level of stupid is so high that I’m hoping this was just some fucked-up prank gone horribly wrong. If this were my kid, he’d better hope the feds get him before I did.
mai naem mobile
When I first read the story I saw Jonah Goldberg and I thought ‘sheet,Trump really? has driven Doughy Pantload around the bend.’
max
He sounds like a first-class schmuck. That said:
Mr. Goldberg was arrested for providing planning to a Federal informant on how to make a pressure cooker bomb**.
He’s being arrested for distributing information???
max
[‘Sounds like a solid First Amendment case.’]
Dave L
There’s more awesomeness to this story. Turns out the same guy was also a major troll/participant in GamerGate, AND Breitbart’s “source” for their hit-job on Shaun King:
https://twitter.com/Spacekatgal/status/642570882431479808
https://twitter.com/Spacekatgal/status/642573831081734144
Amir Khalid
Because I know only German and not Yiddish, my mind keeps correcting the phrase to Schande vor den Goyim.
Let’s see if I’ve got this right. This Jewish kid in Florida is inciting Muslims to join ISIS?
(I will not call what ISIS does jihad. Jihad is any righteous effort. That includes taking up arms in a just war, among other things, and it includes the personal struggle to be a better person. It most definitely does not include making war on fellow Muslims, which is ISIS’ primary activity right now, nor does it include destroying the world’s religious and cultural heritage.)
dr. bloor
@Dave L:
Is “Joshua Goldberg” Hebrew for “James O’Keefe?”
Adam L Silverman
@Tim C.: It, and the awareness that it represents, developed in a time and in places where anything that Jews did might set off their non Jewish neighbors. When you are constantly living on edge and at risk for a pogrom or raid on your village from you Christian neighbors, you become hyper aware and develop a set of internal to the community policing mechanisms to minimize and mitigate.
Gin & Tonic
@max: Who remembers a magazine called The Progressive?
Adam L Silverman
@max: I am in complete agreement that a number of these cases have been 1st Amendment nightmares and seem to be security theater. And the recent vindication of Temple U’s physics department chair and another professor from Ohio State don’t really build confidence. From what I’ve seen in the screen grabs of this guys online stuff, he was doing more than just sending information on how to make a bomb. He was using his fake online persona to incite others to commit violent and terroristic act. Ultimately this is what we have courts, judges, and juries to sort out.
pamelabrown53
@dr. bloor:
He’s like a mall cop version of a Mossad agent
LOL. Pretty damned funny.
Adam L Silverman
@Amir Khalid: You are correct. And he was doing it while pretending to be a Lebanese Muslim refugee online.
pamelabrown53
@Adam L Silverman:
Hopefully, the courts, judges and juries will equitably “sort things out”. In your opinion, how does this differ from citizens posing as pedophiles to entrap them differ?
Although, what little we know so far, points to a one screwed up young man.
shell
Didnt the Boston bombers use some kind of a pressure cooker bomb?
MattF
@Dave L: This suggests to me that he’s over the line and well into sociopathic behavior. And, btw, it’s probably not a good idea to believe anything he says.
Gin & Tonic
@shell: Yes.
Mike J
@Gin & Tonic:
I think I have the nuke issue laying around somewhere.
Another Holocene Human
@Dave L: whaaaaaa—-?
So, my first impression on reading the OP, possible RW troll trying to incite Muslims to violence to justify retaliations.
Second impression: opportunistic sociopath.
Somehow, don’t feel sorry at all about him getting what’s coming to him.
Gin & Tonic
@Mike J: I had a copy for years until the basement flooded.
srv
Now Obama is arresting people for having crock pot information.
Another Holocene Human
@pamelabrown53:
I know the question was posed to someone else, but I’m bothered by your framing. Setting up an online honey pot for a pedophile is legally distinct from entrapment, and it damn well better stay that way. That rogue sheriff’s department in Florida that all but harassed and stalked internet users until they could trap them in an incriminating statement was way outta line.
Same thing with police “stings”. There is a line, sometimes police cross it. We have to have a firewall in the courts to ensure that they have counter incentives, that if they cross that line their whole case gets thrown out.
Sadly, we have Scalia and Thomas in SCOTUS, taking that firewall apart brick by brick.
pamelabrown53
@MattF:
You may be right. His attacks on Shaun King alone display deeply sociopathic behavior….and that’s just scratching the surface.
LanceThruster
So now there will be a massive outcry to ban synagogues?
/s
D58826
Who needs the Onion or Colbert when these folks provide the entertainment for free. (sad really sad)
srv
Conor Friedersdorf finds an Oberlin students year old blog post about microaggressions and spends a few thousand words on it.
Only 2250 comments so far.
When will you silly people wake up.
McMegan McMardle only has 300 comments are her microagression post:
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-09-11/how-grown-ups-deal-with-microaggressions-
What is it with 9/11 and Microaggression?
Big ole hound
We have some congressmen doing damn near the same thing by voting no on the Iran treaty.
RSA
@MattF:
I have a vague memory of a disgraced politician claiming to have accepted a bribe only so that the person giving the money could be prosecuted. (Has that ever happened?)
Another Holocene Human
I wonder if they cancel the Gator game if it keeps raining like this.
JPL
@LanceThruster: Unlike someone who is Muslim of the same age, the public will sympathize with the character and hope that he receives the mental health treatment he needs.
D58826
I’m not sure this should be in any way surprising. Last week a Planned Parenthood clinic was fire bombed, one more in a long line of terrorist attacks by the anti-abortion crowd. Oh wait they are Christian so it can’t be terrorism. Some body is posting a notice that they will pay to have an abortion clinic doctor assassinated. Hopefully the FBI will get to this guy.
There have always been crazy people and the Internet just allows them free access to the real world. But what can you expect from these little wingnuts when The GOPPER presidential candidates are falling all over them selves with red hot rhetoric about planned Parenthood and the doctored tapes. Three House committees are ‘investigation’ as well and I don’t think any of the GOOPPERS have tried to tone down the language and emotions. When you have ‘opinion leasders’ running around making irresponsible statements and stoking the anger somebody with a few lose screws will take the bait and act.
Facepalm
@Dave L: Because someone arrested for posing as a member of ISIS, who also trolled online claiming to be a member of Amnesty International and put up a few diaries at Daily Kos pretending to be what he thought a “Social Justice Warrior” sounded like, then tweets once about GamerGate well he’s obviously a major Gamergater?
And supposedly is the main source of a Breitbart hitpiece… whilst at the same time encouraging Islamists to actually go kill attendees at an Atlas Shrugs/Breitbart “Draw Mohamed” event?
And nothing in those facts gives you pause for even a little thought?
You know, Gamergate may originally have had a few good points, before it got buried beneath the modern attention seeking bullshit; and that may not bother you because of what GG eventually became, at least in respectable online liberal eyes; because who would defend what we now think it’s supposed to be… but the depressing thing for a genuine liberal is just how easy it is for a tiny number of sociopaths to redefine what “They” are like by posing as them and saying a few stupid things, and then get that to become the new “normal”.
And on the other side of the aisle, this particular one was re-defining “you” to “them” as well. Isn’t that right, “Tanya Cohen”?
Now if initial reporting is true, which by now you all should be sceptical of, it’s possible his politics do lie in extreme right racism. The question is, why are you so keen to believe this particular racist liar when he claims he belongs to any movement? And how does accepting where he drew the lines between claimed factions work against what he was trying to achieve (what ever nightmare that ultimately turns out to be)?
Once upon a time, in the dawn of the internet, it was wisdom to “Ignore the Troll”. Now, everyone seems desperate to play the game exactly as they want it to be played… when was the last time you read a political blog that wasn’t dominated by “The other side sucks” rather than “We’ve done this really great thing!”…? He may have been arrested, but he and his ilk really seem to be winning, because you’re accepting terms he probably doesn’t believe in the first place.
Unless you really DO think he was both ISIS and Zionist culture warrior for a US Race War.
Adam L Silverman
@shell: Yes and that’s apparently, according to the news reporting so far, why he recommended it.
Cervantes
@Gin & Tonic:
The “prior restraint” case?
Adam L Silverman
@pamelabrown53: From what I’ve seen of the reporting he wasn’t looking to entrap anyone. He was trying to convince them to undertake terroristic and other violent acts in the same way that ISIS’s own online information ops people do.
Another Holocene Human
So apparently British MRA douse Milo Yanna-racist actually posted about his fantasies of being topped by a big strong sweaty Black dude to Britefart and the commenters went homophobic on him. They loved him when he was hating women ….
NotMax
There’s a parody of the song Help Me, Rhonda awaiting composition.
Adam L Silverman
@Another Holocene Human: Its called the Swamp for a reason…
D58826
@RSA: Abscam. It was a New Jersey Congress critter. Don’t remember if it was a House or Senate. member or a REP or Dem. I think the sting covered the whole gamet of the political spectrum of the time. The name came from the set up which was an Arab oil shiek was willing to bribe a politician. It was back in the 70s or early 80s. The use of the an Arab persona show that not much has changed in the past 40 years.
Another Holocene Human
@JPL:
ahem, there is no known psychiatric treatment for that condition known as “being an asshole”
however, there is some evidence that arresting anti-social assholes does tend to inhibit their anti-social behavior
kind of best you can hope for
Another Holocene Human
@Adam L Silverman: … where dreams go to die?
Another Holocene Human
Hey, those gators do crawl out of Lake Alice and go prowling at night. Good 5-6 foot ones, too. (Yes, I know, Miami, you have bigger gators. 5 and 6 foot is nothing to sneeze at, though.)
Adam L Silverman
@D58826: The PP arson, as well as the over 600 other attacks on abortion clinics, OB/GYNs who perform them, OB/GYN offices that don’t perform abortions (but women’s reproductive health, so tomato-tomaahto), are all domestic terrorism. The way this used to work is that the DOJ would open a domestic security file on the incident, which was how they classified a terrorism investigation. Once we more formally codified a Federal statute on terrorism, what I posted the other night, the process changed a bit. Unfortunately the popular idea of terrorism and who commits acts of terrorism has become so skewed that it has had some really negative effects. In the way things are reported in the news media and how local, state, and Federal law enforcement respond to things.
Cervantes
@D58826:
Among others, six US Representatives and one US Senator, with one Republican among the seven.
Adam L Silverman
@Another Holocene Human: Funny story: six years at UF – four to do the doctorate and two as a post-doc – and I never once saw a gator. The week before I moved to Philadelphia for my first actual professorship in 2004, while walking back to my office (refurbished Anderson Hall next to the Library) from one of the newer science buildings way across campus near Lake Alice, I saw a young gator sunning itself on the banks of one of the feeder creeks. On that day I no longer felt cheated by the UF experience. I could have done without the psycho squirrels that terrorized campus though…
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
@srv:
Have somebody check your fuses.
D58826
@Cervantes: I shudder to think what Colbert or Stewart would have made of ABSCAM.!!!
pamelabrown53
@Another Holocene Human:
Sorry, I used that particular example. It was the first thing that jumped to mind and I didn’t think it through before posting.
NotMax
@Cervantes
And yet Republican high mucky-muck Haley Barbour, whom witnesses corroborated was seen accepting bundles of cash while on board a junk in Hong Kong harbor, skipped away uncharged and scot-free.
Another Holocene Human
@Adam L Silverman: SDS has been meeting in Anderson Hall. Be proud. (“New SDS”, the one GWB’s rein inspired.)
Another Holocene Human
cooktop update: I have declared it Good Enough. Fuck it.
dedc79
More bad news:
Warning: the photo of the injury is graphic
raven
I didn’t say anything about football out of respect for Der Silverman. I come back and HE posts about it!
GO DAWGS!!!
RSA
@D58826: Thanks! That seems to ring a bell.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
Kurt Vonnegut’s Mother Night comes to mind:
Adam L Silverman
@raven: its fine. I fled town on football weekends and spent the time visiting with my family in Tampa. I went to Emory for undergrad and we didn’t have a football team, so college football isn’t a big deal for me either. In fact I find football in general to be boring since I lived in Scotland. I watched rugby there and the game had a speed and flow that was much more interesting. When I got back and tried to watch American football again I couldn’t get over how slow the game was in comparison. And how much slower the players made it with all the crap grandstanding. I don’t need to see anyone celebrate breaking a huddle…
My preferred sport for watching is ice hockey followed by baseball, soccer, boxing, and women’s tennis (here too there’s a flow to the play that doesn’t exist in the men’s game). Auto racing is okay too. And despite being a long time martial artist, I don’t get anything out of watching MMA. Do have a slight addiction to professional wrestling…
Mike in NC
@srv: Tyrant Obama wants to confiscate our
gunsrecipes!Cervantes
@NotMax:
Not only was he not charged, the Republican electorate subsequently rewarded him.
raven
Jacksonville State 20 Auburn 17 with 5 to go!!!!!
raven
@Adam L Silverman: That was supposed to be Dr.
NotMax
@raven
Got kitchen?
Betty Cracker
@raven: I would put up a CFB open thread, but there’s a draft of one in the back room. Hopefully it’ll drop soon (hint hint, gentlemen!). Are you checking out Auburn-Jackson State? Dayum! Also, FSU is going to beat USF, but it was close for a bit!
Another Holocene Human
@dedc79: That is bad news. I hope all of the instigators are caught and punished.
Mike in NC
Got an email today reporting that my scumbag Congressman is joining the growing number of Republicans intent on shutting down government unless Planned Patenthood is defunded. Domestic terrorists.
J R in WV
Un F’in Believable.
The stupid, it burns in your head just thinking of it.
Jacksonville State is leading Auburn 20-13 with 3 minutes left! And they have the ball. Upset of the century if it sticks, pretty good game even if it doesn’t stick.
Sweet for those players!
raven
@Betty Cracker: Yup, I’m on it.
“Auburn spent all their money on a scoreboard. They should have saved some for a quarterback…”
raven
@J R in WV: I fucking hate them.
raven
Shit, 17 yard punt.
raven
@NotMax: partly, I am cooking
NotMax
@raven
Good news indeed.
(Any sudden drop in Trader Joe’s stock price is now on your head. ;) )
raven
shit
Betty Cracker
@NotMax: Got cane sofa?
Betty Cracker
@raven: Double shit!
J R in WV
@raven:
I have a personal beef also. Would root for anyone playing Auburn…
well maybe, there are a couple of other teams I have special feelings about. Notre Dame for one. I would root for whoever didn’t have the ball in that game. 0-0 tie best possible outcome!
raven
@NotMax: I just took about 30 bags to the recycle. It save us but I’m done for a while. Bought fresh kale, butter and green beans, maters. . .
scav
@srv: Well, as the resident potty crock, you do have reason for worry.
raven
@J R in WV: Me TOOO!
NotMax
September. Of the year before the election.
Hawaii. Solid Dem state. Primaries so late as to be irrelevant.
Why the bloody heck am I getting robocalls from the Carson campaign now?
NotMax
@Betty Cracker
9:20 a.m. now. Friend with truck supposed to come by about 11.
Keep good thoughts.
At fifty bucks, it’s a positive steal.
Debbie
@Lavocat:
I wonder if this is more than a fucked up prank. Any chance he might be trying to gin up more support for Israel. Is this something someone would do just for the shits and giggles?
Germy Shoemangler
Off topic, but this journalist was in the room, a few tables away from Trump, when Obama roasted the Donald at the White House correspondents’ dinner. He describes the scene, and Trump’s reaction:
http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/trump-and-obama-a-night-to-remember?intcid=mod-latest
Amir Khalid
@NotMax:
The doctor wants your money? Incidentally, how many physicians have been elected as POTUS? I know the office has seen a lot of lawyers.
Another Holocene Human
@NotMax: The wheels of grift are grinding fine, it seems.
max
@Adam L Silverman: I am in complete agreement that a number of these cases have been 1st Amendment nightmares and seem to be security theater.
Yes, in particular with Muslim guys with sympathies for ISIS (which, legally, they can have) and so on. I twigged on the reporting – it isn’t clear whether the reporter misunderstood or if the release wasn’t clear. (In practice, the Feebs have certainly been trying to practice actual censorship starting with the big wave after 9/11, and it’s they would really love to arrest people for free speech, but I had not seen any suggestion that actual statutes had gone that far.)
It isn’t helpful that this seems to be in line with the FBI tradition of a big terrorism bust announcement right around 9/11, a tradition they have maintained for 13 years. And which often turns out to be less than it appears.
And the recent vindication of Temple U’s physics department chair and another professor from Ohio State don’t really build confidence. From what I’ve seen in the screen grabs of this guys online stuff, he was doing more than just sending information on how to make a bomb. He was using his fake online persona to incite others to commit violent and terroristic act. Ultimately this is what we have courts, judges, and juries to sort out.
Well, yeah – if he actually incited them by directing them to build the bomb with the plans he sent them that’s another kettle of fish. Specifically the statute against incitement or the statute against criminal conspiracy, or both (dealer’s choice). So that would be fine. If they busted him for emailing bomb plans (because he ‘felt like it’, which he can do) then they’ve got no case.
In any event he definitely sounds like an asshole of the first water.
max
[‘It bugs me though that they can work overtime to entrap guys by doing everything up to and including putting a detonator in their hands, or perhaps charge them for exchanging information (which is legal!), but they can’t be bothered to arrest or at least give a stern talking to all these assholes on twitter churning out direct threats of rape and murder, which very definitely not legal.’]
Cervantes
@Amir Khalid:
Physicians? Not one.
MazeDancer
According to article Shaun King tweeted, the-20-year-old was also posing online as
As “Michael Slay” he would attack another alias “Tanya Cohen”.
Using “Tanya Cohen” name, posing as a feminist, he posted on Daily Kos and Feministing.
One wonders how many other sock puppets are sourcing RWNJ “investigations” as this guy did to Shaun King.
J R in WV
@J R in WV:
And so Auburn beat them in OT…so sad after they outplayed Auburn for so long.
Another Holocene Human
@MazeDancer: He’s reminding me of winterfox/RequiresHate/Bees
Who is one determined sociopath.
But hasn’t been caught doing anything illegal. Yet. (She joked early on about throwing acid in her enemies’ faces.)
Another Holocene Human
Also reminded of that young internet troll who started a small cult and then killed somebody. I don’t remember names, the cult stuff was LOTR related I think? That seemed to be an intersection of actual mental illness and utter, ruthless selfishness.
Another Holocene Human
There was another case, this African-American woman who was close to Cassie Claire back when she was a Harry Potter BNF. She would have sock puppets attack her with racial slurs.
She was internet infamous, though, for the stuff she did covertly to blow up other fan websites/boards. She wasn’t the only person close to Cassie Claire who was a total shit, but apparently all the socks and intrigues were a secret until one of the targeted websites tore the lid off. They had her IPs, you see.
Another Holocene Human
The bottom line is that internet evil is not pretend. It’s very real.
And law enforcement plays dumb right up until the moment that one of those trolls threatens an officers. Then they remember how to use computer and seek warrants.
bystander
@JPL: Yes, but did any members of Black Lives Matter respond to his provocations? I think we deserve to know.
Adam L Silverman
@raven: Adam is fine.
D58826
@J R in WV: Must be the fall for upsets. Temple beat Penn State last week. First time since 1941
pluky
@max: Sounds like conspiracy to me.
El Caganer
Well, at least he’s more industrious than the usual 20-year-old slackers living in Mom’s basement, spending all their time masturbating at porn sites and playing online games.
Another Holocene Human
Grr, so angry, somebody is wrong on the
internetNPR West.So on the program today, some stupid “reporter” decided to visit the Southwest Chief. Even though the riders he interviewed knew that the issue is about the Raton Pass, he misconstrued their words to be about some sort of vague budget troubles and long distance trains in general. A full accounting of the issues is freely available on the internet if he’d cared to look. There’s a real story there, in that if Amtrak discontinues service on the Raton Pass and moves to the line through Amarillo, TX, there will be winners and losers along the route, which is why some of the current line governments are trying to offer money to keep it on Raton Pass. The slow pass through the mountains has been abandoned by America’s freight railroads. I think the Amarillo route is superior for Amtrak, but many railfans love that Raton Pass is scenic, old timey, and uses semaphores.
But this guy was too lazy to chase the real story. That would have involved calling state governors’ staffers and small town mayors and shit like that. Oh, and trying to get an interview with someone at Amtrak above Julie.
Instead he gets his employers to buy him a first class Amtrak ticket, plus I guess airfare as well. Nice work if you can get it.
Another Holocene Human
@El Caganer: And offering emotional support to other 20 somethings on online forums. Better to be like Florida Man and incite others to commit homicide in between raids and stroke sessions. At least then you’ll have accomplished something manly, right?
Anoniminous
@Cervantes:
But there has been a tanner, a woodlot operator, a bill collector, a farmer, and a writer of a classic best selling autobiography: U. S. Grant.
BTW: I didn’t, but should have, acknowledged your upset in our discussion earlier. Apologies
PaulW
@max:
There are no absolute First Amendment protections when it comes to bomb-making information: there are some rights involved, but no absolute right when it comes to public safety. It also reads like the 20-year-old was encouraging the other person to actually make that bomb and use it on the public, which falls under various attempted murder-related felonies.
PaulW
@MazeDancer:
I read an article years ago (2008-ish? Already???) that a good number of trolls on political comment forums are fake, some of them on payrolls hiring them to get on places like the newspapers, tv and radio station sites, and political blogs with comment features to swamp them with negative mudslinging to drive out the more discussion-inclined participants.
Sadly, I am not one of them. Although if any left-leaning billionaire or SuperPAC is looking to hire anyone at $70k a year to man the NRO forums to mock Jeb! Bush, please ask for my resume…
(starts creating fake IDs for the likes of Will Yablome, Fhuc Yu, Amanda Hugginkiss, and Don Draper)
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Another Holocene Human:
I put this link at the bottom of the previous thread, but I read a fascinating series of blog posts that posited that guys who get involved in PUA circles are probably codependents who are trying to act like the personality-disordered people who abused them, and they keep attracting horrible, abusive women not because all women are horrible and abusive, but because that’s who untreated codependents are drawn to. I don’t buy his “evolutionary psychology” crap, but I think he’s right about PUAs and probably most MRAs as well:
http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-4/
This Goldberg guy is probably a sociopath, but there’s a reason sociopaths are drawn to stuff like GamerGate and MRA groups. So many sweet, sweet codependents to feed off of and create drama with.
WereBear
@Mnemosyne (tablet): There’s a point. Because what normal and well-adjusted woman would get involved with them?
Cervantes
@Anoniminous:
More than one farmer, the last being James Earl Carter, Jr.
And I saw no reason for you to apologize.
Have a great evening.
Cervantes
@PaulW:
See United States of America v. Progressive, Inc. et al., 467 F. Supp. 990 (W.D. Wis. 1979).
Another Holocene Human
Wow.
Another Holocene Human
@Mnemosyne (tablet): I’m going to try to be cautious here, because the term ‘codependent’ is problematic for a number of reasons. However, I think the notion is probably correct for the majority of the PUA fanbase, the lost souls on subreddits and message boards, very unhappy people looking for answers. It does not describe the ringleaders, many of whom are classic bullies. (And then there’s Heartiste, insecure and pretentious as fuck.) One guy posts videos of himself being rude to women in public online, inviting his sad followers to comment on how well he ‘scored’.
MRAs include a lot of men who are obsessed with control. Some are divorced and obsess about that; others, never married. It’s very troubling and in some cases dangerous, and it has nothing to do with codependency.
You are right in that a man who is recovering from a bad, abusive relationship will find these communities online. It’s worse than that, often men who are recovering from rape find the only sympathetic community online is an MRA forum*. But the “leadership” of these communities doesn’t actually give a shit about them. They sell them a bill of goods about how the world works and why they’re suffering, and grift for cash. Some of them try to cultivate cults of personality as well. It’s a very, very dysfunctional place.
*there’s a reason for this–feminist and rape survivor forums get trolled so frequently, persistently, and aggressively that a male newb is very likely to be booted out at the drop of a hat, or at least tone trolled and language policed for not conforming to forum culture that he flees of his own accord
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Another Holocene Human:
“Codependent” is the word we’re stuck with right now, but the way it’s being used in those blog posts is to signify someone who was abused by their parent(s) or whoever raised them and is now trying to “repair” that relationship by getting involved with someone who reminds them of that parent on a deep (usually unconscious) level. It’s a reaction to a childhood full of abuse, but because they’re MEN! ™, they don’t want any wussy therapy. They can do it all on their own.
A lot of them end up being misdiagnosed with things like bipolar disorder because a lot of mental health professionals are not equipped to deal with abuse survivors, especially when it was “only” mental and emotional abuse and not physical abuse, and also because it’s not uncommon for people who had a childhood full of mental and emotional abuse to not realize that it wasn’t normal so they minimize it. And so the cycle continues …
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Another Holocene Human:
Also, too, “bullies” often have one of the cluster B personality disorders. Because it’s not a mental illness, there’s not much you can do about someone with a cluster B disorder other than avoid them as much as possible:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_B_personality_disorders
mclaren
For a minute there, I thought I read Jonah Goldberg (the psychotic National Review columnist)…and said to myself: “I knew it!!!”
RobNYNY1957
“Shonda” is closer to “disgrace.” See, e.g., German “Schande.”