More good news for @realDonaldTrump: Team Romney plotting to topple him. That can only boost Trump with GOP base.
http://t.co/MoHH5U1rAx
— Frank Rich (@frankrichny) September 11, 2015
The summer of 2015 pic.twitter.com/JpkcPwlwBG
— Billmon (@billmon1) September 9, 2015
.
Just not much there there, is there?…
redshirt
No (R) can stop Trump now.
Without serious shenanigans.
mai naem mobile
So what should the theme song for the GOP Summer of Trump be? I say Rihanna’s “We found love in a hopeless place.” Everything fits in that song. Even the stuff implying domestic abuse.
Myiq2xu
If Team Romney fails the GOPe can always call out the crack team of Nicolle Wallace and Steve Schmidt.
Rich (In Name Only) in Reno
To paraphrase Col. Kilgore: “I love the smell of Alaska forests burning in the morning!…It smells like…victory!”
BruceFromOhio
I wish I had taken more time off.
magurakurin
Meanwhile on the other side of the fence, creeping Naderism is slowly rising its head among the Sanders supporters. I know Sanders will support Clinton if he does not win, but as for some of his supporters:
I don’t know who this Russ Belville idiot is and I realize this is from the shitty HuffPost site, but troubling nonetheless.
The simple truth is, Bernie Sanders just isn’t all that. If he becomes president he isn’t going to usher in a new era of a progressive utopia. He will continue Obama’s slow grind of small, incremental but significant improvement. Exactly the same as a Clinton presidency will do. But if the GOP wins, coupled with control of the House and possible the Senate, the gates of Hell will open.
The sniping and infighting (mostly from Sanders supporters) only serves to weaken the eventual nominee that most of us will vote for whoever it is. And now with the “I’ll just vote third party” crowd starting to chime in…it’s worrying to me.
Whoever the nominee is, they better not fucking lose, that’s all I can say.
Doug R
@mai naem mobile: I think the Kochs are going to be singing”Bitch Better Have My Money” with Walker in the trunk.
Mike in NC
Rmoney vs Trump? Rooting for fatal injuries.
Doug R
@magurakurin: It’s that white male privilege shining through.
jl
Just to make this thread very classy, crusty old second president John Adams claimed to have coined the word idiocracy. He thought he saw signs the country was headed in that direction way back when.
srv
Romney, McCain, Krauthammer, Cruz, Walker, Perry, a whole lot of nothin… a bunch of low energy bench warmers.
Trump is a cross between the heart of Teddy Roosevelt and the charisma of Ronald Reagan.
22over7
@magurakurin: Yup, it sounds just like the Naderites. And those who voted for Perot, and Anderson, etc. Seems like young men mostly, and the latest polls bear out that Hillary doesn’t have nearly as much support from men as from women.
My guess right now is that Hillary will win Iowa, Bernie will win NH, and then Hillary will win South Carolina huge. That should get most people to shit or get off the pot.
BruceFromOhio
@jl: Indeed?
Sorry, John, let me tell you about the aughts, two thousand that is …
Elie
@srv:
.. and the looks and personality of a feral boar. Scary, but in the end just a pig.
redshirt
@srv: I love The Donald too.
I hope he can destroy the Republican Party from the inside.
Doug R
@redshirt: Bill Clinton can be an evil genius.
redshirt
@22over7: Bernie could win both Iowa and NH and then proceed to get crushed, I think.
srv
@redshirt: Reagan had to rebuild the party after Nixon and Ford. Think of what a man with Trump’s vitality can do with a Republican House.
People want a winner – they know he’s not the kind of man you drink a beer with, but if he can beat liberals at their own game in NYC, imagine what he could do to America.
22over7
@redshirt: Quite possible. It’s a long time until February. But Hillary lost caucuses and won primaries last time, and I don’t think she’ll make that mistake again.
mclaren
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we can all laugh at The Donald…but when you come right down to it, Trump strikes me as your average ordinary garden-variety fascist. It’s all there: the adoration of business, the militarism, the xenophobic demonization of a minority group…
I don’t think Trump has a chance in hell of getting the nomination. But that doesn’t change the fact that his mere candidacy is a big red warning light for our democracy, especially when he says the evil shite he’s said about Mexicans coming across the border. That stuff is wayyyyyyyyy over the line into Josef Streicher territory. It’s David Duke stuff.
I mean…c’mon! People! The Stormer, the pre-eminent neo-nazi website, has endorsed Trump! Doesn’t that scare you at least a little?
redshirt
@srv: It’s so hilarious that it’s an actual possibility now. lol we’re all DOOMED!
redshirt
@22over7: Me either. And if she does, then we deserve the DARK TIMES that were to follow with President Cruz.
mclaren
@srv:
There. Fixed that for ya.
redshirt
I’m sorry I don’t trust Bernie to be able to win the General. ’nuff said.
MobiusKlein
@srv: vacuous fluff.
Betty Cracker
@magurakurin: I’m not worried about it. It won’t be Nader redux; it’ll be PUMA 2, a fart in a whirlwind.
Thoughtful Today
Erm…
Sanders has been clear and specific he would work to get the Democratic Party elected.
redshirt
I mean seriously there was that penguin cartoon in the 1980’s that made fun of Donald Trump all the time and it was funny HAHA like some Joker shit from Batman.
He could literally rule us all in a few months. LITERALLY.
Doug R
@mclaren: The scary thing is his popularity. The other candidates have even worse positions.
BillinGlendaleCA
@srv:
That’s enough to start me drinkin’ again.
John Revolta
I’d love to see Trump go 3 rounds with Teddy Roosevelt
mclaren
@Doug R:
I’m not really inclined to take claims about Trump’s alleged “popularity” very seriously at this point.
Remember: we’re 15 months away from the general election.
Nate Silver has pointed out repeatedly that at a point in the campaign this early, mere name-recognition stands as a proxy for polling numbers.
In other words, Silver has noted (and backs it up with hard evidence from past polls at this point in the presidential election cycle) that whichever candidate merely gets press coverage tends to rise substantially in the polls. The reason is obvious — because at this stage, almost no one in the general public knows who the candidates are.
Trump has an enormously advantage in this respect because he is already a public figure. But that advantage will evaporate once we move on to the next stage of the presidential election cycle. Namely, the stage at which Trump has to enunciate clear and specific policies and defend them against other candidates. I don’t think Trump can do that. His whole empty “if I’m president, America will win so much you may get tired of winning” is so vacuous that it won’t stand up in a serious debate, let alone the general election campaign.
And I just don’t think Trump has anything. He has no concrete policies. He has floated a few idea balloons, like raising taxes on the rich — do you think Republicans will go for that? Seriously?
The Republicans are in terrible trouble in this election cycle because every policy they are suggesting this time around has already been tried and has failed miserably. Jeb Bush’s tax cuts are just more of the same old Dubya shit, and we know those were a disaster. The economic record from 2001-2009 proves it.
Trump’s deregulation is just more of the same old Dubya/Reagan shite, and that was a dismal failure — the economic crash of 2009 proves it.
Carson’s militarism is just more Dubya shite, and that was a dismal failure — the Iraq 2003 invasion proves it.
There is literally nothing the Republicans have suggested that has a chance of passing the straight-face test with the American voters.
That’s why I’m not worried about Trump. Read Nate Silver on the polling numbers. At this early stage, they’re really just name recognition numbers. Trump’s lead will evaporate as soon as he has to produce a cabinet and some specific policies on which to govern.
redshirt
I’d like to hope a Trump (R) nomination would lead to record numbers of (D) votes. And voters. And volunteers and donors and door knockers and so on and such.
mclaren
@redshirt:
Well, just consider this…right now Bernie Sanders is polling against Hillary higher than Barack Obama was at the same stage in the 2008 presidential election.
Hard proof.
Something to think about, eh?
Thoughtful Today
hehe
I’ve lost track, are the same Concern Trolls that are now worried Bernie’s supporters not supporting Hillary the same Trolls that have been trashing Bernie and his supporters?
FTR, I’m voting for the Democratic Presidential Candidate.
RK
Hillary Clinton rubs so many the wrong way that I wouldn’t dismiss any nominee the GOP produces. Indeed, a recent poll has her losing to Ben Carson. Did you know that Carson is a Young Earth creationist?
Full metal Wingnut
@srv: Do you ever get sick of writing mediocre troll comments?
srv
@mclaren:
I don’t think you understand how Republican primaries function.
redshirt
@mclaren: I would love to vote for Bernie based on his policies but based on his biology I cannot.
I’m saying no to old white men.
mclaren
@RK:
C’mon. At this point in the 2008 election cycle, the polls had Hillary losing to Rudy Giuliani. Neither of those people wound up being the eventual nominee.
I repeat: as Nate Silver continually points out, putative general election match-up polls of hypothetical candidates this early in the election cycle are 100% worthless as predictors.
Ruckus
@Full metal Wingnut:
Like a monkey, throw enough shit against the wall and something might stick.
ETA Not directed at you, at the subject of your comment.
mclaren
@redshirt:
You make an excellent point.
Time will tell.
I would rather vote for Mothra than any of the Republican candidates this cycle, though, and I think a lot of other voters feel the same.
Thoughtful Today
heh,
I get that you don’t get this is insulting to Bernie’s supporters, essentially throwing sand in their face and then whining when they stand up for themselves, but this is insulting and farcical:
“He will continue Obama’s slow grind of small, incremental but significant improvement. Exactly the same as a Clinton presidency will do.”
As one of those you insult with this nonsense, I’ll return the favor: It’s small minded thinking.
Start thinking bigger.
redshirt
@mclaren: I rarely vote “For” a democratic candidate, as rather “AGAINST” whatever Republican is running. The Republican Party is the greatest evil that exists on the ENTIRE PLANET EARTH at the moment. And I mean that, sincerely. Global Warming alone is enough to kill billions.
Without the small percentage of Southern Republicans, the world would have global warming treaties and technologies deployed to counter the devastating effects to come.
Instead, we turn on Fox News.
Steeplejack (tablet)
@mclaren:
Hard proof?! Your link is to a graph on an image-posting site with no hint of the graph’s provenance. Where does it come from?
mclaren
@mai naem mobile:
“Cocaine Blues” by Bob Dylan.
mclaren
@Steeplejack (tablet):
Okay. You want more evidence?
Try this article: Bernie Sanders is polling as well against Hillary Clinton as Barack Obama did in 2008.
On the other hand, Nate Silver points out (with hard numbers to back it up) that Hillary Clinton is running far ahead of where she was in 2008. She is 10 points ahead now in every state of where she was in 2008, except in New Hampshire.
So (as Mr. Chapel was wont to say in the 1998 TV series Vengeance Unlimited), “anything is possible.”
Steeplejack (tablet)
@mclaren:
No, I want you to tell me where that graph you offered as “hard proof” originated.
And Rare.us? Who the fuck is that?
Thoughtful Today
Erm….
1) Nate Silver has a strong probability of being wrong about anything he says. Period. That probability of being wrong will diminish over the next year of campaigning and polls, but this far out he’s mostly just talking out his asterisk.
2) I’m not sure Trump will have to show any of his homework. Expecting that Trump “has to” do anything seems to fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the authoritarian base he’s appealed to.
jl
@BruceFromOhio: That was the early John Adams, before he lost his naive youthful optimism.
mclaren
@Steeplejack (tablet):
More sources for that graph of Sanders vs. Hillary compared to Obama in 2008:
http://rebrn.com/re/update-bernie-sanders-is-polling-closer-to-hillary-than-obama-wa-843585/
Numbers are taken from the Huffington Post pollster API with stats done in the R language, if you’re familiar with that.
Still not enough evidence for you? No problem, I can keep providing more hard proof all day long.
kindness
That heading pic seems so Lord Of The Flies. Not far removed really.
rikyrah
@mclaren:
As a non-White in this country, Donald Trump does not scare me. Because, what he’s saying is what the GOP has been saying for forever. You must not be able to hear the dogwhistles …I can loud and clear. This is the GOP
mclaren
@Thoughtful Today:
This about the guy who nailed every single state within a fraction of a percentage point in the last election.
LOL!
Show us your statistical track record on predicting elections, then you get to dis Nate Silver.
mclaren
@rikyrah:
Sure, of course, that’s the GOP — but they’re not supposed to come right and say all that racist shite straight up.
Trump isn’t getting with the program. He’s not dancing around the subject with euphemisms like “violent urban youth” (black kids) or “inner-city crime” (black people) or “unwed single mothers” (black women) or “chronic crime problem” (black poor people).
He just vomits out the racist hate unvarnished.
I don’t think that’s gonna fly with most of the electorate.
RK
@mclaren: I cited the poll because it would tend to demonstrate my point: People may be reluctant to vote for Clinton. Clinton isn’t a mystery; she’s a well-known national figure. That she seems to have trouble getting over about 46% in most match-ups is not something I’d be happy about if I were a Democrat.
redshirt
Do you golf, mclaren?
mclaren
And now…a blast from the past!
What’s JFK doing about Russia’s secret death-ray bomb?
redshirt
@mclaren:
Note this, folks. mclaren thinks most Americans are rational.
There’s deeper more extreme holes to go….
mclaren
@redshirt:
I don’t have the balls for golfing.
Thoughtful Today
Bernie asserts that the excitement he’s bringing into the Democratic Party strengthens the Democratic Party.
He’s correct.
redshirt
@mclaren: Golf is a great sport but at the same time fuck the rich, amirite?
redshirt
@Thoughtful Today: Correct.
There’s this rural corner in Maine with 8 Bernie signs on 4 houses each side of the road for 8 total like a complete Bernie neighborhood. I call it Berniehood now.
RK
If Trump wins the nomination he should tack to the left. Whether that works with Independents or conservative Democrats remains to be seen but where will the Right have to go? Into the hands of a Hillary presidency?
mclaren
@Thoughtful Today:
FYI, the stats show that Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders voted the same on 93% of the issues..
Sanders is an extremely mainstream Democratic candidate.
Thoughtful Today
mclaren, you’re correct, I should take more care:
Nate Silver is a statistical probability magician.
Nonetheless:
Nate’s talking out his asterisk more than people realize, especially this far out. Nate’s telling you there’s no significant confidence in polling this far out as predictors, so taking anything he’s saying this far out is done largely out of faith.
redshirt
All of Balloon Juice jhas been silenced.
Thoughtful Today
McLaren,
Bernie’s interview with CNN’s Wolf Blitzer is worth watching and sharing.
It shows Bernie to be a nimble debater, in command of the facts, ready for a challenging interview, and even willing to challenge the interviewer.
Ruckus
@redshirt:
Not a troll?
Still?
amk
@srv:
donald dreck might get the 45% dumbass aka rethug votes. and then what?
redshirt
@Ruckus: ok….
Steeplejack
@mclaren:
More (“hard proof”) sources?
Rebrn.com appears to be another no-name aggregator site—tag line “Best from the Web.” It’s the exact same graph you posted from Imgur.com.
The graph appears once again at the Intuitics site, this time with the notation—finally!—that it was designed by Chad Murphy of the University of Mary Washington. Data source?—http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster—which turns out to be a general link to the HuffPost Pollster page, which “tracks thousands of public polls to give you the latest data on elections, political opinions and more.” No indication of the sources of Murphy’s data except the technobabble you quote approvingly (and for which you provide no source or link):
Then you finish:
Sure, if your definition of “hard proof” is wispy clouds of ephemeral cites/sites with a side order of condescension (“the R language, if you’re familiar with that”). And long history on this blog has shown that you certainly have no trouble cranking that out all day long.
What you actually end up with, after the inky cloud of obfuscation is cleared away, is one cheesy graph with no clue to how it was actually derived. But, hey, the Huffington Post pollster API and the R language were involved, so there’s that.
Finally, you yourself said above:
Wouldn’t much the same hold true for Sanders? So you have taken the long way around to let us know that he currently has about as much name recognition vis-à-vis Clinton as Obama did at the same point in 2007. Big fucking deal. Does that somehow mean there is a Sanders juggernaut bearing down on hapless Hillary? I doubt it.
Ruckus
@redshirt:
I didn’t think convincing you would be difficult. All it took was what 2-3 hours and mc making my point for me.
As I said there are moments of lucidity, but the over all theme? This was easy/peasy.
redshirt
@Ruckus: mclaren is a side concern regardless. We need to discuss the more important matter of the lack of discussion of Mad Max: Fury Road.
I’m driving to Mass to see it in IMAX 3D. How could I not at this point?
Ruckus
@redshirt:
You catching the early show? Or do you never sleep?
redshirt
@Ruckus: I’ll sleep when I’m dead.
Thoughtful Today
Bernie “currently has about as much name recognition vis-à-vis Clinton as Obama did at the same point in 2007.”
I’d call that a ‘very positive historical trend line’ for Bernie.
:)
redshirt
@Ruckus: In the future, of course. Actually also, too.
Ruckus
@redshirt:
It is easier to get there if you don’t. But that doesn’t stop lots of us from trying the concept.
redshirt
I feel as agile as a Fair Exhibit.
Steeplejack
@Thoughtful Today:
You forgot your trademark “Erm” to start your comment. Must be the late hour.
Thoughtful Today
;-)
Phenomenal introduction by Cornel West of Bernie Sanders in South Carolina.
Ian
I have come to believe that we are in a non violent civil war. On one side is the ‘Murikans, and the other is the United Statesians.
Ian
@22over7:
Because those states each have huge gender ratios.. or something…
This conversation is horseshit. Most Bernie supports like and will vote for Clinton, and vice versa. I Call sock puppetry.
cckids
@mclaren:
Really? Because I think that is his main attraction with a depressing portion of the electorate.
Thoughtful Today
?
Bernie’s online map of events has been updated to include Campaign Offices in Iowa.
Events are scattered around the country. There might be one near you. It’s relatively easy to start a Bernie events as well.
Bernie2016events.org
It’s the “Big Board”-)
magurakurin
@Thoughtful Today:
whatever. But if Sanders becomes president (and that would not sadden me in the least, I would be quite happy) I am quite sure that after 6 months you’ll be trolling around the Intetubes with posts about how “Bernie sold us out.” The Great Man Theory of history was discarded long ago. I’ll say it again. Bernie Sanders just isn’t all that. Nobody is.
magurakurin
@Ian:
yeah that is probably true, but it certainly is not true for this Russ Belville idiot. And he has a soapbox, however small, that is larger than yours or mine. So, double plus ungood.
Applejinx
@Thoughtful Today: Thanks! I’m going to be keeping an eye on that board.
Thoughtful Today
If you’re ready to vote for Bernie for President, I’d highly recommend you look through everything you can find on Bernie and consider voting for him in the primaries as well.
Bernie’s got an extensive video record going back decades, gootube’s a good place to start.
He’s a better candidate than his detractors realize.
Amir Khalid
@Thoughtful Today:
Wolf Blitzer asks soft questions, then lets his subject hold forth. Let’s see Bernie and Hillary (and whoever the Republicans care to put up) go up against a questioner as tough as this guy — the BBC’s legendary Jeremy Paxman.
Thoughtful Today
Bernie on FOX:
Senator Bernie Sanders on FOX’s Bill O’Reilly show.
He’ll do fine.
Cervantes
@Amir Khalid:
He did some good interviewing, no question.
And did you notice that, mere days after leaving Newsnight, on which he had presented for a quarter of a century, he announced that he was a Tory and that the rest of the staff were overly idealistic “thirteen-year-olds”? That was somewhat amusing.
Jeffro
@magurakurin:
Hey, whoa, come on, what’s really the worst thing that could happen?
I mean, other than another 9/11, another Iraq War, another Katrina, and another financial meltdown??
Thoughtful Today
!
Bernie gave detailed and expansive answers to a series of very serious policy questions from the IOWA PRESS interviewers this week.
Several journalists from various Iowa publications took turns asking Bernie important questions (many with follow up questions).
Good journalism.
Zinsky
Democrats need to take a lesson from Karl Rove – attack your opponent where they are perceived to be strong? His wealth and sucess? He didn’t earn it – he inherited it from his Dad. His toughness? He is a draft dodger who cried after his wife beat him in a downhill ski race. Democrats just never learn and get sucker punched every election. Frustrating!
Tom
@srv: You do realize that other people can hear you, right?
Another Holocene Human
@Thoughtful Today: I wonder, is it painful to be that delusional, or, when your suppositions eventually burst into the nothingness that they are, are you delusional about that as well?
Another Holocene Human
@jl:
Damn.
I can relate. People are stupid. Fuck everything.
Another Holocene Human
@mclaren:
You’re probably asleep, mclaren, so whatever, but … that’s what a good chunk of the electorate believes!
They believe the racist canard–after all, very serious people in very serious places used to write reports about it and newspaper columns and do specials on TV–that African American genetics and/or culture is uniquely violent and unruly, and this is the reasons for high “urban” crime rates.
It’s a total and complete LIE but they believe it–lock, stock, and barrel!
This is why BLM is necessary–and much more than just this. I’m not saying they’re not radical enough, I’m just saying the scope of the problem is greater than random Black people being sacrificed with regularity by the police to the White Supremacy Jesus. The human sacrifice is just the most acute issue right now.
Another Holocene Human
@Thoughtful Today: For Christ’s sake, the issue is not Bernie Sanders, good Democrat (lol), it’s the loons he attracts–vocal loons. The same people who supported Jill Stein in 2012 and a lot of whom supported Obama in 2008, but abandoned him during the health care battle in 2009 and cried about it for the next 6 years or so or until they personally ended up signing up through the Healthcare Exchange.
Our same lefty betters who stand around in a ring saying “let’s you and him fight” when labor or minority groups square off with the establishment. Who are the first to give up in prolonged political battles because politics is so corrupt and impure and cuts into their social life. Who will sign a petition for anything radical or man the fringiest protest, but when it comes time to try to get a less sucky upper middle class white guy in local office and kick out the really sucky upper middle class white guy in office, they’re nowhere to be found. I hear crickets in this office. I thought we were supposed to be doing phone calls.
eta: it’s all good, though, they stuck it to the man by voting for a fringe local candidate who got 300 votes total
Amir Khalid
@Cervantes:
Paxman had to announce that he was a Tory. You wouldn’t have guessed that, from the way he held David Cameron’s feet to the fire in that interview.
Cervantes
@Another Holocene Human:
What suppositions?
What delusions?
Cervantes
@Amir Khalid:
As I said, he did some good interviewing, no question. Comparing Paxman to Blitzer may result in the swift appearance of lightning bolts.
Thanks for calling attention to that clip.
Bobby Thomson
@Thoughtful Today: Will Sanders shit out House and Senate majorities and persuade the next majority leader to do away with the filibuster? Because otherwise, no, there wouldn’t be much practical difference between Sanders and Clinton. Except that statistically one could be expected to die during the first term.
Another Holocene Human
@Cervantes: It’s delusional for one thing to suppose that voting for the most radical candidate, and then successfully electing the most radical candidate, setting aside the question of the degree of this particular individual’s radicalism, will result in radical change.
And when that radical change does not occur, does the person who so fervently believed in this strategy reconsider their assumptions, or do they concoct a new fantasy story?
ETA: or what @Bobby Thomson said.
Cervantes
@Bobby Thomson:
That’s rather a narrow view. Would hypothetical President Sanders and hypothetical President Clinton nominate the same people, and negotiate in the same way, and issue the same executive orders, and veto the same things? I have no idea, but it seems you are more knowledgeable.
That’s a cheery thought.
Amir Khalid
This is the intro from a story on the BBC site. Notice the silly mistake at the end of the sentence.
Bostondreams
@Thoughtful Today:
Hard to think big when you have a Congress dominated by the other party. Whoever is the Dem nominee will have to deal with reality, and the reality is that the Republicans control the House for the foreseeable future. How big can those dreams be?
AxelFoley
@rikyrah:
Aye, and it has been the GOP since at least 1968
Cervantes
@Another Holocene Human:
Optimistic, I’d say. What’s delusional is to suppose that radical change can come even if we keep refusing to support radical candidates. (Not that you suppose this, of course.)
Anyhow, one can choose to assume that when people voice their support for Sanders, and (big) if he is elected, that they will forget how democracies — and this republic in particular — function [sic]. But this is merely an assumption, not a fact.
For example, I supported Obama from the beginning, and wanted a lot from him, more than he has been able to deliver — and yet I understand the circumstances and I have continued to support him by and large. You are capable of this understanding. What makes you think the Sanders folk en masse are not? Is it a supposition or a delusion?
I’m not sure who is concocting “fantasy stories” …
Denali
@Amir,
Thanks for the clip with Jeremy Paxman vs David Cameron. Refreshing to see a real debate.
magurakurin
@Cervantes:
see: Kos, Daily
also, too, did you read what the idiot at the Huffpost wrote in the link in my post above?
Here’s the deal as I see it, at least on the intertubes. Most Clinton people start a comment with something like “I love Bernie, but I don’t think he can win the general….” and then go on to talk about why Clinton is stronger. They rarely ever say anything insulting or negative about Sanders, other than they don’t think he can win. But the vast majority of comments I see from Sanders supporters start with some variation of “Hillary Clinton is bad because….(she is corrupt, a weathervane, scripted, untrustworthy, a wall street shill, cold, calculating, shrill, wooden and on and on and on) It’s getting old and it is only September. There just isn’t that much of a difference between. For fuck’s sake, Sanders has been in the Congress for 25 frickin years. He is no more an outsider than say Harry Reid or Mitch McConnell. Better than most, but entirely part of the “establishment.”
BR
@Thoughtful Today:
When I first heard he was doing this, it showed a bit of cluelessness to me on Sanders’s part, and I’m amazed he actually did it. The fact that he’s trying to leverage Cornel West’s support into broad-based black support in South Carolina tells me he doesn’t get the dynamics here — that West is divisive (among all racial and ethinic groups) and that he’s been less-than-civil when talking about Obama, which is his right but doesn’t make him someone who will help win Obama’s coalition.
Cervantes
@magurakurin:
You’re referring to the following?
Like you, “I don’t know who this Russ Belville idiot is,” either — nor do I assume he speaks for anyone but himself.
mclaren
@Another Holocene Human:
And the most hilarious delusion of the entire comment to which you respond is the false presumption that Bernie Sanders is “radical.”
Sanders and Hillary voted the same way 93% of the time. Bernie Sanders is a completely mainstream Democratic candidate. In fact, if we rolled the Wayback Machine to the 1950s, Bernie Sanders would have been a completely mainstream Republican candidate back then.
The notion that Sanders is “radical” is absolutely ludicrous. Unbelievable tripe, total Fox News propaganda.
Cervantes
@mclaren:
That’s rather a dim-witted measure of who is and isn’t supporting radical change — because it depends entirely on the mix of legislation offered by, and to, the entire Senate.
You could take the same two people, offer them an entirely different mix of legislation to vote on, and come away with an entirely different conclusion.
And by the way, speaking of “unbelievable tripe,” consider this:
Cervantes
@mclaren:
Oh, one other thing:
Can you show us above where this “false presumption” arose?
Frank Bolton
@Bostondreams:
@Bobby Thomson:
First of all: getting the House isn’t as hopeless as a lot of people made it out to be. Sam Wang estimates that the Democratic Party needed in 2013 about a generic 7% voting advantage to recapture the House. Obama’s 2012 margin plus raw demographic increases among Millenials and Latinos gives us about 6% by 2016.
Second of all: the House seems impossible to capture right now because we’ve been running the Clinton 42′-Obama playbook of social liberalism plus economic centrism. This limits our appeal in the Midwest and Appalachia. A Bernie Sanders and/or a significantly retooled Hillary Clinton campaign that puts an emphasis on out-and-out economic progressivism would, in my opinion, allow a serious play for the white working class. I’m not expecting miracles here, but improving our margin among whites in the South from 20% to 30%, Rockies from 40% to 45%, and Midwest from 45% to 55% would get us the House.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@srv:
You forget Trump’s Teddy “Bull Moose” Roosevelt heart my friend. At the best if Trump wins he would be another Governor Schwarzenegger; an outsider with enough popularity to get elected by not enough popularity to get his programs threw the party insiders.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@srv:
rofl. You’ve fooled some people here, but you can’t fool me.
You’re really James Carville, aren’t you?
On the off-chance I’m wrong, I’ll leave you with this:
:-p
Cheers,
Scott.
Cervantes
@Frank Bolton:
You tell ’em.
Some good people — including here — appear to be threatened by such a notion.
MaryRC
@Betty Cracker: PUMA — now there’s a blast from the past. I wonder how the pumas are dealing with Hilary’s current run? Or are there any pumas any more? Did they fade into the mist? Is there a lost forest somewhere where pumas and mama grizzlies meet to sigh over what might have been?
chris9059
@Thoughtful Today: Indeed. For every small, incremental improvement under Obama there has been a huge step backward. For example – a large increase in wealth and income inequality, spiraling student debt, an even greater concentration of assets in the too big to fail banks and probably worst of all the absolute refusal to prosecute the criminal financial class – which guarantees a repeat of the 2008 financial debacle.