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You are here: Home / Open Threads / And you my friend will see you’ve got a friend in me

And you my friend will see you’ve got a friend in me

by DougJ|  October 4, 201512:54 pm| 133 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

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I had Ben Carson figured for a Fred Thompson-type candidate — amiable and telegenic but lacking the energy and shamelessness to make it in a GOP primary.

Maybe I’ve underestimated him:

Dr. Ben Carson … has launched a social media response effort to the Oregon gunman’s reported targeting of Christians in his shooting spree on a community college campus on Thursday.

In one of several consecutive Facebook posts, Carson urges his millions of followers to change their Facebook photograph to an image of a hashtag: #IAmAChristian. The other Facebook photograph shows Carson holding up a piece of paper with the words “I am a Christian” written on it.

Carson

And Carson’s in front in a new poll!

I don’t think Jeb, Rubio, or Kasich has it in them to pull this kind of stunt. If they’re still in third-place or lower come December, I wonder what they’ll come up with.

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Reader Interactions

133Comments

  1. 1.

    SiubhanDuinne

    October 4, 2015 at 12:57 pm

    Okay, weird. I just commented on Betty Cracker’s thread, and the whole thing just disappeared!

  2. 2.

    Cervantes

    October 4, 2015 at 12:58 pm

    I wonder what they’ll come up with.

    I dread to think.

  3. 3.

    SiubhanDuinne

    October 4, 2015 at 12:58 pm

    Ben’s sign says “I am a Christian fish.”

  4. 4.

    shell

    October 4, 2015 at 1:00 pm

    Well you knew it was only an egg timers away that thi s nonsense would start, as soon as the news story hti about the shooter asking the victims their religionl.

    Christian persecution!

  5. 5.

    John O

    October 4, 2015 at 1:00 pm

    I still think it’s cute that a black guy thinks he can win the GOP nomination for POTUS.

  6. 6.

    WereBear

    October 4, 2015 at 1:05 pm

    Plays right into their persecution. The many shooters who targeted women?

    Crickets.

  7. 7.

    shell

    October 4, 2015 at 1:05 pm

    Yeah, what happened to Bettys post?

  8. 8.

    Sherparick

    October 4, 2015 at 1:05 pm

    @John O: 1. He is a Black guy who tells all the Neo-Confederates in the Republican Party that what they think about other Blacks is true, that only thing holding African Americans back in America is their shiftlessness and “lack of responsibility.”
    2. He is even better then Huckabee a hitting the notes of White Evangelical grievance and populist Nationalism.
    3. Just a side note: Apparently, it okay to politicize mass shootings as long you are a Movement Conservative Republican. Another IOKIYR moment.

  9. 9.

    John O

    October 4, 2015 at 1:08 pm

    @Sherparick: Understood.

    It won’t matter once votes start getting counted, though.

  10. 10.

    satby

    October 4, 2015 at 1:08 pm

    Yeah, the right wing noise machine is all cranked up on the “shooter was a Muslim” meme. I saw 3 FB posts on that, which I answered with the Raw Story article about his online dating profile claiming he was a “conservative Republican who was spiritual but not religious”.
    Waiting for the day one of the xenophobes suggests that Muslims have to start wearing yellow crescents so “good Amurikans” can identify them.

    Edited to add, and the tag line on all the winger whining is about how Obama wants to take away all their protection from the ebbil Muslims coming to take over the country.

  11. 11.

    Calouste

    October 4, 2015 at 1:09 pm

    Well, at the moment Carson decided to run, as a black man, with no political experience, in the GOP presidential primary, you knew he had no shame, or at least no self reflection.

  12. 12.

    Elizabelle

    October 4, 2015 at 1:17 pm

    @shell: She probably pulled it, so as not to bigfoot.

    What was Ms. Cracker’s topic?

  13. 13.

    Srv

    October 4, 2015 at 1:17 pm

    I just don’t think he’ll be good vp material for trump. His ego is probably to big for H&HS. Maybe we should have a Secretary of Faith.

  14. 14.

    Cervantes

    October 4, 2015 at 1:20 pm

    @Calouste:

    you knew he had no shame, or at least no self reflection.

    Or he drew conclusions others don’t draw.

    Ben, you’re always running here and there,
    You feel you’re not wanted anywhere.
    If you ever look behind
    And don’t like what you find
    There’s something you should know:
    You’ve got a place to go.

  15. 15.

    Amir Khalid

    October 4, 2015 at 1:20 pm

    Is it just this one poll that has Ben Carson in the lead, or an average of the weekend polls? Because I’m not buying that the Donald has lost the Republican lead until the latter says so.

    Toy Story 2 for the song reference, right?

  16. 16.

    JPL

    October 4, 2015 at 1:21 pm

    Did he hold up the same sign when several people were killed in a Charleston church?

  17. 17.

    Germy Shoemangler

    October 4, 2015 at 1:21 pm

    I fell asleep last night before SNL, but I saw this today: a medication for delusional GOP candidates who think they can become president:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIYEGDJoluc

  18. 18.

    Cervantes

    October 4, 2015 at 1:23 pm

    @Srv:

    Maybe we should have a Secretary of Faith.

    The Brits had one in recent years — until recently.

    The Saudis and others have had them for a long time.

  19. 19.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 1:23 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: They had us make our own fish things in Catholic summer day camp whatever that was and I didn’t get that shit then and I don’t get it now.

    Just because Christians during the period of classical antiquity used fish symbols as some sort of sekrit code identifier, a symbol which may have purely pagan antecedants, so you do you, early Christians, does not mean post modern era Christians ought to be putting fish (vulva?) symbols on every damn thing, including their conspicuous consumption machines. Jesus fish my ass. Jesus was depicted as Apollo, the sexy (& rapey) young man god who lacks a beard. What the hell does that have to do with fish? (He was decked out in shepherd kit, okay?)

  20. 20.

    El Caganer

    October 4, 2015 at 1:24 pm

    I don’t think this is going to pan out for him. The last time I’m aware of that a neoconfederate got together with black christians was in Charleston, and it really didn’t end well.

  21. 21.

    Cervantes

    October 4, 2015 at 1:25 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    Is it just this one poll that has Ben Carson in the lead

    Just this one. However:

    The IBD/TIPP Poll has a proven track record for accuracy, based on its performance in the past three presidential elections. In a comparison of the final results of various pollsters for the 2004 and 2008 elections, IBD/TIPP was the most accurate. And the New York Times concluded that IBD/TIPP was the most accurate among 23 polls over the three weeks leading up to the 2012 election.

    The October poll, conducted from Sept. 26 to Oct. 1, included 377 registered voters who are Republican or registered independents who lean toward the Republican Party, with a margin of error of +/- 5 percentage points.

    Early days, however, so take all polls with sodium chloride.

    Toy Story 2 for the song reference, right?

    The young Michael Jackson.

  22. 22.

    Sherparick

    October 4, 2015 at 1:25 pm

    One of the many cloudcookooland aspects of Dr. Ben is here is a nerusurgeon and scientist, someone who has actually written important scientific papers, but is a “Young Creationist” e.g. someone who believes the Earth, the solar system, the entire universe was created 8,000 years ago (which, regardless of evolution, biology, geology, makes Astronomy and Physics interesting when we are seeing starlight and radio waves that date back 13 billion years and radioactive isotopes with half lives in the millions and hundreds of thousands of years. The Evangelical part of the base loves him for this big “FU” at all the rest of us pointy head intellectuals.

    Also, it allows Ben and the rest to ignore the climate effects of global warming (see the Carolinas this weekend and the long term drought on the west coast for instance) as acts of God, sent in punishment for us allowing Gay marriage and not causing forced births among women for unapproved sexy time with an appropriate patriarch, made worse because of all the environmentalist and their anti-pollution law (kind of wondering what is happening right now to all the coal ash dumps in the Carolinas as the rivers flood into them).

  23. 23.

    Amir Khalid

    October 4, 2015 at 1:25 pm

    @Cervantes:
    Dang.

  24. 24.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 1:26 pm

    Hm, are the fish one of those 70s fads like “maranatha” everything? Apparently the aramaic expression appears in the Bible but a new text showed up in the 20th century where a line break was put in an unexpected place and scholars speculated it mean something different than what every 1st mill CE translation had it and then some practical jokers (It was a put-on, right?) suggested that the disputed word should be a meditation mantra for Christians just like “om” and then some creepy Xtian cult used it in their name.

  25. 25.

    Germy Shoemangler

    October 4, 2015 at 1:27 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: Do you remember the Bill Hicks bit about Jesus not wanting to come back because he sees his followers wearing crosses? It creeps him out. Hicks compared it to people wearing little rifles around their necks to honor JFK. Making little shooting gestures when they meet Jackie Kennedy, out of respect.

  26. 26.

    Elie

    October 4, 2015 at 1:28 pm

    Carson is just another crank. He is getting away with it because none of the others are better candidates and no one wants to take it to the only Knee-gro. He is not a factor except as a wild card. He stays alive because the overall group is so horrible and weak that he actually looks ok by comparison but he would melt away in two seconds as a true lead candidate or VP pick. I have no idea what the Republicans are going to do and how this will eventually work out to produce a credible ticket. The Republican Party is in tatters IMHO. I say that with no pleasure because it is frightening that it could have fallen this far apart, but there it is. The forces pulling it directionally and policy wise and the personnel that now define it are not coherent or in synchrony to produce anything but confusion and dead-end emotions. We already know that they are incapable of governing but are still very dangerous — all id and emotional impulse. I have no idea how this plays out but Carson is an eccentric megalomaniac who is taking advantage of the party’s confusion to pump up his revenue and stroke his massive ego.

  27. 27.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 1:29 pm

    @El Caganer: Tim Scott anyone? If he plays it like Carson he’ll probably get reelected*, too. Because South Carolina.

    *technically, he was appointed the first time, but it’s weird to say “elected” of a sitting Senator

  28. 28.

    Srv

    October 4, 2015 at 1:29 pm

    @Cervantes: you always have good facts. But life isn’t all facts.

  29. 29.

    MazeDancer

    October 4, 2015 at 1:29 pm

    Carson does more than legitimize hate, he makes hate holy. And that sanctification of hate has always been delicious for the haters, because it makes them feel powerful. Like the Crusaders off to murder infidels. Like ISIL recruits. Like, as NY Times reports, cops painting “In God We Trust” on their squad cars.

    Watching a DVR playback of a couple weeks old show of Oprah interviewing Jimmy Carter. He is such a living embodiment of the best of his religion.

    Carter said to Oprah:

    “The most serious human rights violation on Earth is the abuse of women and girls”

    They discussed the 2009 moment when Southern Baptists voted that, in alignment with the teaching of their “God”, women could not hold leadership positions in the SBC and Mr. Carter and his wife Rosalind left that church after 70 years.

    Looked it up, still the SBC doctrine, and there are 16 million members of the Southern Baptist Church in US today. That’s a lot of hate.

    Something in Carson must hate – and/or fear – mightily to think hating is not just a fine thing, but following the “word of God”. All these religions that believe their God is commanding them to hate are sad and frightening. And if one of those monsters lies or cheats his way into the White House – looking at you, Ohio vote counters, may all the forces of good protect us – not sure what will happen.

  30. 30.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 1:29 pm

    @Elie: Who else can run a Christian shtick out of that crowd but Santorum? And Santorum seems to have been soundly rejected for loser stink!

  31. 31.

    tom

    October 4, 2015 at 1:31 pm

    I can’t wait to see the photoshopped versions of this sign.

  32. 32.

    MattF

    October 4, 2015 at 1:31 pm

    @Sherparick: In fact, Carson believes lots of odd stuff– but that’s par for the course for devout Evangelicals. The ‘trials and tribulations’ of true believers is just more of the same old cognitive dissonance and, as ever, it only serves to strengthen small-group social cohesion.

  33. 33.

    scav

    October 4, 2015 at 1:32 pm

    The cries of Christian Persecution! in regards to a guy reportedly obsessed with the IRA — again, logic or evidence is determinedly not a part of their world-view.

  34. 34.

    Cervantes

    October 4, 2015 at 1:33 pm

    @Srv:

    But life isn’t all facts.

    Truer words you never spoke.

  35. 35.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 1:33 pm

    @MazeDancer:

    Looked it up, still the SBC doctrine, and there are 16 million members of the Southern Baptist Church in US today. That’s a lot of hate.

    The only consolation is that the worm has turned and since 2009 SBC has been hemorrhaging members. Been reading some Patheos blogs on that and they feel like SBC is incapable of being honest with themselves about what the problems are.

    I thought the way SBC tried to address the racial elephant in the room was pretty half-assed. What’s really funny is the trend of churches taking the word “Baptist” off their signs.

  36. 36.

    Anoniminous

    October 4, 2015 at 1:34 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    A poll with an MOE greater than 4 is meaningless.

  37. 37.

    Betty Cracker

    October 4, 2015 at 1:36 pm

    I yanked my post because Doug and I apparently published at the same time. It was just an open thread with a bit about my travels. Will repost later. Hopefully any comments will still be attached. If not, my apologies. WordPress has a REALLY shitty mobile app, IMO.

  38. 38.

    Mike in NC

    October 4, 2015 at 1:37 pm

    George H. W. Bush got elected by going around the country and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance.

  39. 39.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 1:37 pm

    @Sherparick:

    He is even better then Huckabee a hitting the notes of White Evangelical grievance and populist Nationalism.

    That’s because Huckabee is so fucking fake and is desperate for mainstream acceptance if not adulation, whereas Carson has imbibed way too much of the koolaid and doesn’t give a shit that he’s alienated his own colleagues and, frankly a lot of people who used to admire and look up to him.

    Hucksterbee thinks the grass is greener on the other side, well, the money, anyway, and is panting after dollars. Of course he is truly enmeshed and of a deeply culty and disturbing and disordered world of patriarchal Christianity, which is why the mainstream will see him as the cop-killer-pardoner and child-molester-lover rather than the “pastor who made Xtianity cool and approachable”.

  40. 40.

    Belafon

    October 4, 2015 at 1:38 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: The fish as a Christian symbol is there for two reasons:
    1. The sermon on the mount where the crowd was fed with a couple of fish and loaves of bread.
    2. Some of the apostles were fishermen, who were called by Jesus to become “fishers of men,” to preach the gospel to others.

  41. 41.

    Germy Shoemangler

    October 4, 2015 at 1:39 pm

    @JPL:

    For the record, this is the same Ben Carson, who, following the Charleston, SC church massacre boldly tackled racism head on, in stark contrast to his fellow presidential rivals. While Rand Paul (R-KY) alluded to a spiritual sickness, other candidates flatly avoided the issue. Not Ben Carson. The deadly shooting spree committed by Dylann Storm Roof, who killed nine innocent Bible study participants in June of 2015, was not because of some spiritual shortcoming, according to Carson, but rather because of an extremely malignant form of racism.

    “Let’s call this sickness what it is,” said the retired, world-renown, pediatric neurosurgeon and Tea Party favorite. Only then, he noted, will we be able to “get on with the healing.” Going even further, Carson said “there are people who are claiming that they can lead this country who dare not call this tragedy an act of racism, a hate crime, for fear of offending a particular segment of the electorate.”

    From “Crooksandliars.com

  42. 42.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 1:39 pm

    @MazeDancer: What you say about making hate holy is some scary shit right there.

  43. 43.

    MattF

    October 4, 2015 at 1:41 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: It is interesting the way this campaign has revealed the unpleasant character traits of many of the would-be candidates. I’ve changed my views about Cruz, Walker, Jeb!, Fiorina, Jindal, and Huckabee in major ways.

  44. 44.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 1:42 pm

    @Belafon: Is there some sort of evidence for this or is it another apologetic just-so story?

    I know that these fish have been found archeologically, but is there some sort of received text that explains this? Marcion (“Paul”) never discusses it. Jerome? Augustine? Throw me a bone here.

  45. 45.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 1:43 pm

    @MattF: I love the meme that’s getting circulated: “If Carly Fiorina Wanted To Destroy Planned Parenthood She Would Have Become Their CEO.”

  46. 46.

    scav

    October 4, 2015 at 1:46 pm

    If we’re getting into symbolism, I’m going to really lose it giggling if they hashtag it, (#Christian): The martyrdom of St. Lawrence, now gone ditigal! Lawerence was reportedly grilled, well, ok, technically placed on a great gridiron (which brings up an entirely different giggle about methods of martyrdom). “I’m well done. Turn me over!” I once threw a hell of St. Lawrence Day BBQ where everyone had to wear plaid. (Lawrence himself is a good one though, presented the poor as the treasures of the church 9snuck them cash too), and decidedly lippy/snarky when speaking to authorities.)

  47. 47.

    JPL

    October 4, 2015 at 1:49 pm

    @Germy Shoemangler: Thanks. Every once and a while, he sounds like a reasonable individual.

  48. 48.

    Some guy

    October 4, 2015 at 1:50 pm

    Hey Betty, how but then Gators? Jumped to#12 in the Coaches Poll.

  49. 49.

    MattF

    October 4, 2015 at 1:50 pm

    @scav: Saints do all sorts of interesting things. The NYT had an opinion piece that described an unusual feat of St. Denis:

    …the crypt is believed to be the site of the beheading of St. Denis, the patron saint of France, in the third century. Before surrendering to death, the legend goes, Denis carried his head several miles north — to what is now the Saint-Denis Basilica.

  50. 50.

    BGinCHI

    October 4, 2015 at 1:52 pm

    #Iamadumbass

    #Iamafootnotetohistory

    #Ireadthebiblelikeit’sfanfic

  51. 51.

    smintheus

    October 4, 2015 at 1:53 pm

    But people who hold up “Black Lives Matter” signs are just stirring up trouble, right?

  52. 52.

    scav

    October 4, 2015 at 1:55 pm

    @MattF: Didn’t the beheading take place on Montmartre, meaning mount of the martyr? Have to go read the NYT, but that’s what I remember from some trip to Paris. I seem to remember imagining the head bouncing down all those steps before being picked up and taken for that long walk.

  53. 53.

    Belafon

    October 4, 2015 at 1:58 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: Is there evidence for either of those stories being true? That doesn’t really matter. It’s why they chose the fish.

    Do you ever look at Phoenix and want to ask them if the fire bird is real?

  54. 54.

    Hawes

    October 4, 2015 at 1:59 pm

    I hope we have someone on photoshop working that sign into something glorious.

  55. 55.

    gene108

    October 4, 2015 at 2:00 pm

    @satby:

    Yellow tags would be an improvement for right wingers. I think most of them would be just as happy to have them killed outright, like a wild animal that prowls the streets of a civilized neighborhood and threatens the good people there.

    Combine inherent racism and bigotry, on the Right, with 40+ years of Muslims / Arabs portrayed as the bad guys, in popular media, and you have a toxic brew.

  56. 56.

    MattF

    October 4, 2015 at 2:00 pm

    @scav: The crypt is in Paris, it says in the NYT piece here, but doesn’t give the address.

  57. 57.

    Jack the Second

    October 4, 2015 at 2:00 pm

    The origin of the fish symbol is also rife with puns and backronyms: wiki.

    If it was also recursive, it could be an open source project.

  58. 58.

    SiubhanDuinne

    October 4, 2015 at 2:01 pm

    @Elizabelle:

    The post title was “Saturday Afternoon Open Thread.” I immediately (annoyingly, pedantically) wrote a comment to remind her that this is actually Sunday, but the whole thread disappeared before I had a chance to go back and read and look at the pictures. Hope she reposts after a scent interval.

  59. 59.

    shell

    October 4, 2015 at 2:05 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: Would love to get another look at all those tasty dishes from the Dillard House.

  60. 60.

    MattF

    October 4, 2015 at 2:05 pm

    @gene108: Yeah, they’re brown and they’re a-rabs, so that’s all you need to know.

  61. 61.

    schrodinger's cat

    October 4, 2015 at 2:07 pm

    Why does he always looks like he is drugged? Has he been prescribing himself some strong opiates?

  62. 62.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 2:08 pm

    @Belafon: Not much of a fan of history and archeology, are ya, mate?

    Yeah, I actually do what to know what that’s about. I also like things to make sense, which is why I would not emblazon all my worldly goods with a stick figure fish because of “loaves and fishes”. I guess that’s why I became a bad Christian and quit.

  63. 63.

    scav

    October 4, 2015 at 2:08 pm

    @MattF: I think it must be Montmartre, bothering Sacre Coeur. Huzzah! I can keep my bouncing head silly image.

    ETA: Should have known they’d be multiple claims, Rue des Martyres is elsewhere. Still, vive la difference.
    ETA Two, can now have head bouncing down entire street, it’s close enough (going wrong direction though, so saint backtracked?)

  64. 64.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 2:08 pm

    @Hawes: My wife now refuses to hold signs at protests because of shooped memes on social media.

    I know there are creeps out there, but damn.

  65. 65.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 2:11 pm

    @gene108:

    Combine inherent racism and bigotry, on the Right, with 40+ years of Muslims / Arabs portrayed as the bad guys, in popular media, and you have a toxic brew.

    Even “liberal” Hollywood liked to use racist, denigrating images of Arabs in movies, usually for comedy, as recently as the 1990s. They made it seem like blowing the shit out of some dirtbag Arab nation was practically a moral imperative. (The Indy movies, horrible too.)

  66. 66.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 2:11 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat: inorite?

  67. 67.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 2:14 pm

    @Jack the Second: Thank you.

  68. 68.

    jl

    October 4, 2015 at 2:14 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: My understanding is that the fish symbol was adopted by early Christians. Why that particular symbol was adopted might be a mystery, but it was.

    IIRC, fish was symbol or womb, fertility, productive and fruitful sexytime and spawning in many European pagan cultures. So, nice irony for contemporary US Xtianity, which as degraded into a cult that is little more than a heretical cult obsessed with submission to a race based authoritarian social order and oppressive sex codes.

    Edit: the fish symbol was very early, like the footprint symbol in Buddhism. They were adopted before the historically remembered systematizing theological bigshots were even born.

  69. 69.

    OzarkHillbilly

    October 4, 2015 at 2:15 pm

    @Belafon: Another part of the “fable/story” is that Christians used it to identify each other in the years when being a Christian was fatal.

  70. 70.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 2:17 pm

    @OzarkHillbilly: Yeah, wikipedia included that claim. Their source? Christianity Today.

    Well, that settles that, then.

  71. 71.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 4, 2015 at 2:18 pm

    Does the ‘targeting Xians’ story have more than one source? What I saw was the brother of one of the victims started the story.

  72. 72.

    Germy Shoemangler

    October 4, 2015 at 2:19 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Why does he always looks like he is drugged? Has he been prescribing himself some strong opiates?

    I get sleepy just watching him.

    I have said he reminds me of Wimpy, the hamburger fancier from the Popeye the Sailor Man saga.

  73. 73.

    OzarkHillbilly

    October 4, 2015 at 2:19 pm

    @OzarkHillbilly: And I should note that it continues to this day with none other than John McCain telling the story of a X-mas spent in the Hanoi Hilton. One of the guards drew a fish in the dirt at McCain’s feet then after McCain had seen it rubbed it out.

  74. 74.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 2:20 pm

    @jl:

    the fish symbol was very early, like the footprint symbol in Buddhism. They were adopted before the historically remembered systematizing theological bigshots were even born.

    That’s what I remember, which is why I have no time for attempts to link it to New Testament texts which at any rate would post-date the adoption of it (despite fulsome claims that they are older than they in fact are).

    And if you don’t know what the fuck it means (although apparently, there is evidence as to what it meant to pagans? a bunch of stuff evangelical Christians despise?), why are you plastering all over everything for the world to see?

    Don’t get it.

  75. 75.

    J R in WV

    October 4, 2015 at 2:20 pm

    But remember the old testament, how much hatred is in that bible. God wants his chosen people to kill everyone else, except for the young women, who are to be concubines of the patriarchs.

    This is repeated over and over… so why wouldn’t today’s christtians (which isn’t a secular abbreviation, by the way, but a respectful ancient Greek word) feel free to hate as much as they want. Especially hating non-christians of any sort.

    Look at the teachings of the Southern Baptists, just for a tiny example. No surprise that fundamentalists are carrying on about hating everyone the least bit different, color, race, religion, politics…

  76. 76.

    Anoniminous

    October 4, 2015 at 2:20 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Hope she reposts after a scent interval.

    Guess I need to upgrade. All I can get is words, video, and audio over the Internetztubez.

  77. 77.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 2:20 pm

    There’s a pagan Chick tract out there on the internet about what the fish symbol means to pagans. It makes entertaining reading.

  78. 78.

    Another Holocene Human

    October 4, 2015 at 2:23 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: It’s probably as well sourced as the fish in the dirt story, which relies on you believing the wild claims about early Christian persecution.

  79. 79.

    SRW1

    October 4, 2015 at 2:23 pm

    @Srv:

    Oh look, you’ve all grown up now! Well, at least your first letter has.

  80. 80.

    MattF

    October 4, 2015 at 2:24 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: It’s a seekrit code. There are, it turns out, many different seekrit codes, but… exactly why is a different question.

  81. 81.

    father pussbucket (fka gnomedad)

    October 4, 2015 at 2:24 pm

    #isupportgunsafetysochristiansdontgetkilled

  82. 82.

    OzarkHillbilly

    October 4, 2015 at 2:24 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: Yeah, sometimes truth becomes fable, sometimes it goes the other way. We all embellish the truth to some extent and if they like that myth/truth, fine by me. There are loads of other myths in that book of theirs I find far more troubling.

  83. 83.

    Roger Moore

    October 4, 2015 at 2:24 pm

    @Another Holocene Human:
    Part of the thing about the fish is that there was an acrostic where by the word for fish stood for “Jesus Christ, God’s Son, Savior”. There’s also the whole thing about Jesus teaching his disciples to be fishers of men.

  84. 84.

    jl

    October 4, 2015 at 2:26 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: I don’t believe in enough of the mythical stuff, and never have, to call myself any kind of orthodox Christian, and I don’t plaster the fish symbol anywhere (Edit: unless I need to draw a fish, for some reason.)

    So, how about this explanation: enough of the early Christians decided to use that symbol that it became associated with them in very early Christianity. No one knows exactly why they chose it, but they did.

    Just like footprint symbol of very early Buddhism. All you have is guesses about the meaning. So, supposedly the footprint symbolized Gautama Buddha wandering around spreading his teachings, or no… maybe it symbolized the truth of impermanence, that we are all traveling down a road of constant change.

    Whatever.. enough people used it to make it a symbol for their group. It was already established when guys like St. Augustine were writing, so they were in same position we are: guessing about why and suggesting retroactive explanations and working it into their writings.

  85. 85.

    Ohio Mom

    October 4, 2015 at 2:27 pm

    I’m expecting all the novelty candidates to bow out, one by one in good time. Leaving behind Kasich, who will look smart and dignified in comparison to what preceded him. Which I find a very scary prospect.

  86. 86.

    Cervantes

    October 4, 2015 at 2:27 pm

    @scav:

    Didn’t the beheading take place on Montmartre, meaning mount of the martyr?

    On one side of the hill in ancient times there was a Temple of Mars, hence Mons Martis — which name was later Frenchified — Montmartre — when the site was associated with the martyrdom of Denis.

    (On the other side of the hill there was a Temple of Mercury.)

  87. 87.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 4, 2015 at 2:27 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: I was thinking of the fish story (Hah! see what I did there?) about the girl at Columbine, which Rck Santorum used in a campaign speech a couple of weeks ago.

  88. 88.

    Debbie

    October 4, 2015 at 2:27 pm

    Wonder how many of Carson’s followers will misspell “Christian”?

  89. 89.

    Cervantes

    October 4, 2015 at 2:29 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    The latter is the source, I believe, whence displaying the icon means “I am one of the fish so fortunately caught by Jesus and his fishers of men.”

  90. 90.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 4, 2015 at 2:30 pm

    @Ohio Mom: Yeah, I’m kinda pissed at Jeb for flaming out so early.

    If Kasich does make it, my one hope is that he’s arrogant and goofy enough to stick to his guns on Soc Sec privatization

  91. 91.

    scav

    October 4, 2015 at 2:31 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: There’s a bit of irony too in that some of that persecution was about the pesky critters not upholding the state / majority religion and thus endangering the state by not making the proper offerings etc. Majority or Minority rights, it’s all the same to them, so long as they get their way, and all the adoration of innate moral superiority on top (and people unlike them hidden or denigrated recently — luffly, simply luffly neighbors anymore).

  92. 92.

    SiubhanDuinne

    October 4, 2015 at 2:32 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Autocorrect changed “decent” to “scent.”

    Decent interval, FYAC. Decent.

  93. 93.

    scav

    October 4, 2015 at 2:33 pm

    @Cervantes: Ah, cool – facts as well. More sanctified site switching. Sigh. But, at this point the bouncing head has taken on a life of its own.

  94. 94.

    gene108

    October 4, 2015 at 2:33 pm

    Maybe early Christians went with the fish symbol because none of the could draw good and anything more complicated would be drawn so horribly no two symbols would look the same and they’d go to the wrong house for church service.

  95. 95.

    SiubhanDuinne

    October 4, 2015 at 2:33 pm

    @shell:

    Up now, and all those things do indeed look deelish.

  96. 96.

    jl

    October 4, 2015 at 2:36 pm

    BTW, I saw reports the shooter was associated with white supremacist groups. Wonder if the GOP pres candidates will speak out against that.

    And that he was ‘spiritual’ but against organized religion.

    Most of these people who commit mass shootings are so mentally disturbed and confused that is is a mistake to try to read too much into their explanations (in suicide notes and facebook rambings, and manifestos).

    But I suppose when Carson tries to parlay the tragedy into the right wing fantasy of persecution of Christians in the US, or Jeb? tries to use to the tragedy to remind people about his reactionary and murderous anti safety regulation platform, that is OK. But mentioning gun control in the wake of the tragedy is a vile attempt to ‘politicize’ it.

    Best response is not play along with the politicization name calling game on all sides and evaluate the different arguments on their merits. If we can convince enough people to do that, then we will be talking about better gun control policies and mental health access, and ignoring the likes of Carson and Jeb?.

  97. 97.

    SiubhanDuinne

    October 4, 2015 at 2:38 pm

    @Anoniminous:

    See my FuckYouAutocorrect post at #92.

  98. 98.

    MattF

    October 4, 2015 at 2:41 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: If you’re using Safari, you can turn off autocorrect. Just right-click in any text-entry box and follow the ‘Spelling and Grammar’ item in the menu.

  99. 99.

    SiubhanDuinne

    October 4, 2015 at 2:43 pm

    @MattF:

    You know, I complain about Autocorrect a lot, but it is occasionally useful and very often screamingly funny. So for the time being, I’ll leave it activated — but I appreciate the tip on how to disable for the inevitable moment when it is no longer amusing.

  100. 100.

    Brother Dingaling

    October 4, 2015 at 2:46 pm

    The Baptists don’t realize Carson is a Seventh Day Adventist yet.

  101. 101.

    jl

    October 4, 2015 at 2:49 pm

    @Brother Dingaling: Some Xtianists have noticed. I read that Carson was disinvited from some religious political forum because he was not considered a real Christian. Not sure if this was earlier in this campaign cycle, or it happened a few years ago.

    Anyway, i suppose if he stays near top of GOP shit mess of a primary campaign, then this kind of silliness will become some kind of important issue for some people.

  102. 102.

    MazeDancer

    October 4, 2015 at 2:53 pm

    @Another Holocene Human:

    What’s really funny is the trend of churches taking the word “Baptist” off their signs.

    Encouraging news. Also good hearing Southern Baptist membership depleting.

    making hate holy is some scary shit

    Yes, it is. And history has too many examples of how much so.

    Voter registration and GOTV is really the Obi Wan Kenobi of our future next year – our only hope. Because only elections impact outcome, because otherwise it’s standstill, grandstanding, and news media continuing to support GOP and lie for profit after that.

  103. 103.

    Ruckus

    October 4, 2015 at 2:58 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:
    I find that letting it show me my misspellings is great when lesdyxia takes hold and has it’s way with me. I actually learn, and at my age.

    Letting it autocorrect them is not.

  104. 104.

    Mnemosyne (tablet)

    October 4, 2015 at 3:13 pm

    @jl:

    This. It’s factual that early Christians used the fish as a symbol — archeologists have found physical evidence of it scribbled among other Roman graffiti — but the exact rationale for their doing so is lost to the mists of time.

    The fact that modern-day Christians have re-adopted the symbol doesn’t retroactively wipe out the early use or mean that modern and early Christians used/are using it for the same reason.

  105. 105.

    JimGod

    October 4, 2015 at 3:31 pm

    @Elie: No small pleasure? I take great pleasure in watching them flail about. They brought this on themselves 40 years ago with the Southern Strategy. This is the natural endgame.

  106. 106.

    xenos

    October 4, 2015 at 3:40 pm

    @Jack the Second: it was the dawning of the age of Pisces, and the passing of the age of the ram.

    And Jésus said he would return in the age if Aquarius. A lot of the new testament is structured on an astrological framework.

    Somebody explain that to Carson.

  107. 107.

    PurpleGirl

    October 4, 2015 at 3:46 pm

    @MazeDancer: The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod also holds that women cannot be in positions of leadership over men. Women cannot be school principals and cannot be ministers of education, not to mention ministers at all. That was not the main reason for the break up in the 1980s but it fed into the split that occurred. The three smaller synods which merged to form the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) all have women ministers.

  108. 108.

    Elie

    October 4, 2015 at 3:47 pm

    @JimGod:

    Yes, they brought it on themselves, but there is very real fall out from their pathology — and it affects all of us. They are destroyers in their current iteration. They cannot build anything, but holding both houses and a lot of state houses makes them capable of a lot of damage to policy and to our national community. Their continuing to stroke racist and hate filled screed, keeps that alive and shapes “permissible” behavior in the still majority white population — It makes it more difficult to redirect and re-shape the reality that these people can accept when all their leaders echo the basest and most reactionary thinking. To me it is no accident that we have all these young male psychotics acting out what they see as messages to act in the thinly veiled invitations to violence present in the speech of Republican leaders.. and that not one of their leaders ever calls it what is. Paranoid schizophrenics among others, as well as non mentally ill extremists, view this language as calls to action.

    So yes, if I don’t think of all the down sides of this, I would applaud the dissolution of the Republican Party. But I am too scared of the still majority white population and the crazy folks in their midst just prevalent enough to make our already confusing times ever more violent. And we can’t take any comfort when we listen to what their leaders in our Congress say to all this chaos. Instead of calming it, they escalate and prevaricate.

  109. 109.

    A guy

    October 4, 2015 at 3:51 pm

    Smart educated blacks scare you folks. Of course smart educated white scare the dems too

  110. 110.

    Omnes Omnibus

    October 4, 2015 at 3:59 pm

    @A guy: We aren’t the ones terrified by the Obama family.

  111. 111.

    Felonius Monk

    October 4, 2015 at 4:04 pm

    In case no one has yet said it #BenIsAChristianIdiot.

    ETA: How do I know? God told me.

  112. 112.

    Piquoiseau

    October 4, 2015 at 4:10 pm

    Carson: Dude is SO STONED.

  113. 113.

    Kay

    October 4, 2015 at 4:25 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    The rise of anti-establishment candidates and Marco Rubio – and the re-emergence of Jeb Bush – have stalled Ohio Gov. John Kasich’s momentum in New Hampshire, a new NBC News/Wall Street Journal/Marist poll shows.
    Kasich, who a month ago sat in second place, behind real estate mogul Donald Trump, does not rank among the Republican presidential field’s top 5 this time.

    Jeb rebounded from 5 to 11 which is perfect because Jeb has to suppress Kasich in NH. Perfect for me, I mean, because I would rather have Jeb as the nominee.

    I’ve come around to thinking Jeb’s a fake-smart person, like Newt Gingrich. Gun lovers here use that swimming pool example but in a slightly different way so I think Jeb just bungled it. I think you’re supposed to say swimming pools are more dangerous for children than guns are, not that swimming pools shouldn’t have fences around them. I’ve heard it about 50 times. It’s their favorite stat. He’s probably heard it too so tried to use it :)

    http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2015/10/john_kasich_loses_ground_in_ne.html#incart_m-rpt-1

  114. 114.

    J R in WV

    October 4, 2015 at 4:36 pm

    @A guy:

    As usual, you’re speaking for yourself, and no one else here.

    Jackass!

    Look, a PG comment reply to one of these idiots! My first!!

  115. 115.

    Ohio Mom

    October 4, 2015 at 4:38 pm

    @Kay: My big AHA moment with our governor came last year when the phone rang and it was one of those Town-hall things with Kasich. I had a few free minutes so I listened in.

    I was struck by how reasonable he seemed. If I wasn’t something of a news junkie, I would have fallen for him in a big way. I can see a lot of lower-information voters being taken with him.

    It’s a long way until next September. Carson, Trump and the other “unconventional” candidates will be long forgotten (I mean, it’s fun now to laugh at them but it’s a diversion).

    Kasich could be the rabbit that beats the hare, and I think that if his handlers are successful in reigning in the worst of him, he could have a good shot. I also would rather the candidate be Jeb.

  116. 116.

    maya

    October 4, 2015 at 4:56 pm

    So what. Fletcher was a Christian too and look what he did.

  117. 117.

    Elie

    October 4, 2015 at 5:10 pm

    We can talk about “eventual republican nominees” as we discount the crazy loons at the lead of the party now, but how do they get there? No more “sensible” (or winnable) can emerge from a base this off kilter. There is only a path to loony. The math, when distributed across all the current Republican nominees, leaves only a minority percentage not taken up by the loons, so I have to assume that the Republicans will only be able to nominate and support one of the crazies. There is no path to anything else. If early on, there was even a small constituency for some sane candidate (doesn’t exist, but pretend there was), they could eventually build off of that. It looks however, that they will be like the Germans after WWII. No more Nazis and the future German Democrats would not yet have emerged.

    The Republicans are way past precarious….

  118. 118.

    Kay

    October 4, 2015 at 5:16 pm

    @Ohio Mom:

    I think Jeb is his biggest problem, though.

    Jeb has the Kasich slot filled and Jeb’s not going away anytime soon. Kasich has to attract the Money Party people and there’s a Bush in the way :)

  119. 119.

    Howard Beale IV

    October 4, 2015 at 5:46 pm

    CAn someone with Photoshop skillz make Carson appear holding a blank sign? LGF has been having much mirth with @nero’s blank sign.

  120. 120.

    dricey

    October 4, 2015 at 6:14 pm

    The fish as a Christian symbol comes from IXTHUS (Latinized Greek letters), which in Greek stands for Iesu Xristos THeou Uios Soter, or Jesus Christ God’s Son Savior.

    It made a very convenient secret symbol for Christians prior to their takeover of the imperial government and its police and court apparatus in the fourth century.

  121. 121.

    Uncle Cosmo

    October 4, 2015 at 6:57 pm

    @A guy: “Smart educated blacks”?? You mean Carson????? As my dad used to put it, In a pig’s eye.

    Try overcredentialed imbecile. Try glorified butcher. Try shithead. Actually, you & Carson have that last one in common.

    Now be a good little troll & FOAD..

  122. 122.

    jl

    October 4, 2015 at 7:01 pm

    @Kay: And I’ve read Kasich mouths off to the money people and refuses to grovel and scrape respectfully. So they probably won’t favor him until he is the last, desperate, choice.

    Kasich is certainly willing to toil in their vineyard, even if he says ‘No, father, I will not’. So the billionaires apparently haven’t read the Good Book and do not realize he will be more faithful servant than those who say ‘Yes, father, I will’ (Except for Walker, of course, but he is out of the race). (As long as Christian stories are a topic of this post, might as well use one for an example.)

  123. 123.

    low-tech cyclist

    October 4, 2015 at 7:19 pm

    Oh, the sweet vicarious courage of feeling you’re bravely standing up to imaginary persecution of Christians!

    And all you gotta do to be a hero is show a pic of yourself on your FB page with a sign saying “I am a Christian.” Even easier than joining the Alice’s Restaurant Anti-Massacree Movement.

  124. 124.

    Ohio Mom

    October 4, 2015 at 8:17 pm

    @Kay: *I will repeat that to myself whenever I get gloomy about Kasich, the deep pockets don’t want or like him.

  125. 125.

    Tim C.

    October 4, 2015 at 8:34 pm

    Fred Clark over at the slacktivist at patheos regularly documents the fake Christian persecution complex. He’s far better at communicating the landscape of the issues than I could ever be, but the short version is that it’s a way of live action role playing. A kind of moral laziness that lets you off the hook for your sins if satanic baby killers are all around and you are part of a special gifted group who sees the light. Carson. Is smart to play to them.

  126. 126.

    mclaren

    October 4, 2015 at 8:40 pm

    I had Ben Carson figured for a Fred Thompson-type candidate — amiable and telegenic but lacking the energy and shamelessness to make it in a GOP primary.

    Am I the only person with a functioning nervous system on this blog?

    Seriously — Ben Carson, the guy who proposed mass-murdering illegal Mexican immigrants with drone strikes before they could cross the border, is “amiable and telegenic”???

    Ben Carson Calls For Drone Strikes Along U.S.-Mexican Border.

    This man is a murderous psychopath. He should be sealed away securely in a locked ward at Bellevue. The only communication anyone should receive from this man is a crayola-scrawled manifesto.

  127. 127.

    Matt McIrvin

    October 4, 2015 at 8:48 pm

    @satby:

    Yeah, the right wing noise machine is all cranked up on the “shooter was a Muslim” meme.

    Wow, really? It sounded to me like the guy actually was a violently anti-religious atheist, which I would have thought would be enough for them to go on right there without lying.

  128. 128.

    mclaren

    October 4, 2015 at 8:49 pm

    IF BALLOON JUICE HAD BEEN AROUND DURING THE 70s

    Democrat: “After ordering a woman’s vagina filled with gasoline and set on fire, Pol Pot waved to the crowd, showing his amiability and geniality. This makes him a strong contender in Cambodian politics.”

    Another Democrat: “In between helping his minions machete children to death, Pol Pot smiled. This guy has charisma! His liability factor is very high.”

    A Guy: “Of course you hate Pol Pot, you Democrats are just afraid of educated foreigners.”

  129. 129.

    Elie

    October 4, 2015 at 8:56 pm

    @mclaren:

    I agree with you — maybe not to the extent — but the man is SICK. If I thought he had a better chance, I would be more worried. He is very very dysfunctional and how much is covered up by his low key façade. Nothing about him on the interior is truly low key. He would have no trouble implementing the mass burnings at the stake from the Inquisition. All that cutting on brains would make him pretty immune to physical horror. He might enjoy participating himself.

    Seriously, I think he is the most dangerous person of the Republican candidates because he is way smarter than all of them even though he is pretty damned sick. He is way too mentally unbalanced and unfortunately for HIM is black, making it a bit harder to vault across barriers to acceptability for a Republican Party still ironing its pointy white hoods every Friday evening. In this case, I am truly grateful for the ballast of racism, or we would be having to take this guy much more seriously.

    PS – I believe part of his success as a neurosurgeon is that he just doesn’t care that he is carving up human brains and tissue. He can make decisions without any interference of human emotion. He can take more high risk decisions without worrying over much about consequence… People talk about Trump being the socio/psychopath, but I truly think that its Carson. Trump is just a fat carnival barker with a need for attention.

  130. 130.

    Elie

    October 4, 2015 at 9:01 pm

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Honestly y’all.

    THE MAN (most likely) WAS A PARANOID SCHIZOPHRENIC

    He had DELUSIONS — not ideology. Stop trying to put together a coherent cause and effect between his actions and beliefs. They may or may not ever tie together completely. Seriously. Stop.

    He was a person with severe thought disorder who was able to get a lot of guns and act on his impulses and delusions. Knowing “why” is irrelevant. His brain chemistry dictated his actions.

  131. 131.

    Cpl. Cam

    October 4, 2015 at 9:40 pm

    @Another Holocene Human: If there’s some specific fish with biblical connections you are thinking of it might be the “coracin” which shared a name with one of the fishing villages near the Sea of Galilee. “Woe to you Chorazain! Wow to you Bethsaida! And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades.”
    Matt. 11:21

    As far as the origins of calling Christians “fish,” who knows? Hell, I could even see it being a derogatory term for early Christians by Romans… (I.E. What a foolish fish to get caught by a “resurrected” lord who was “born to a virgin.” Not very commendable to a Roman mind versed in logic and reason…)

  132. 132.

    Bitter Scribe

    October 4, 2015 at 11:06 pm

    @Cpl. Cam: It’s an acronym. The first letters of the Greek words for “Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior” spell “fish” (“ιχθύς“).

    Declaring yourself a Christian in this country takes such courage.

  133. 133.

    chris9059

    October 5, 2015 at 3:42 am

    Isn’t he a Seventh Day Adventist? Don’t a lot of Protestents consider SDA to be non-Christian?

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