Reid starts new gun-control push, calls Republicans 'puppets' of NRA http://t.co/63ULNVRtH4 | Getty pic.twitter.com/pZtgWaQUTt
— POLITICO (@politico) October 5, 2015
Except, puppets don't have free will. I think there's another word when you take money for it. https://t.co/d0FEAm8S34
— Bob Schooley (@Rschooley) October 5, 2015
Kudos to Senator Reid. From the Politico article:
Senate Democrats are gearing up for another gun-control push after the massacre at a community college in Roseburg, Ore., as the chamber’s top Democrat accused Republicans of being “puppets” of the influential National Rifle Association in obstructing action on guns. But as members of both parties pitch ideas for gun-control legislation, once again, there appear to be few areas of agreement between Democrats and Republicans.
Minority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) said Monday that he is reaching out to other Democratic senators on moving background checks legislation – a tall order in the Senate, where just two years ago Republicans and red-state Democrats blocked a bill when the chamber was under Democratic control. On Monday, Senate Republicans again shrugged off the push from Democrats as political and not addressing the root cause of the country’s mass shooting affliction…
If “we don’t take action, we are equally responsible for innocent deaths as the sick individuals who plot and carry out these horrific measures,” Reid said Monday on the Senate floor. “One thing is clear: To pass background checks, we need Republicans to stop acting as puppets of the NRA.”…
On Monday, Reid leveled sharp criticism at the NRA, saying it was once a “moderate sportsman’s organization” but that “times have changed.”
“Now the NRA and its leadership are committed to a radical agenda that allows criminals and mentally ill Americans to access guns to commit these terrible acts,” Reid said. “Is this what the American people elected us to do? I think not.”…
"Our inaction is a political decision we're making," Obama says on gun violence. "I will politicize it."
— Jennifer Bendery (@jbendery) October 2, 2015
At what point do we start investigating the @NRA as an organization that supports providing guns to domestic terrorists? #UCCShooting
— Max Berger (@maxberger) October 1, 2015
I'll never forget when my then 3-y-o's teacher reassured us parents that her room "has a big closet, so they will all fit." Never.
— Katie Nelson (@katienelson) October 1, 2015
So when NRA types share this are they admitting that guns are a deadly addiction of very damaged people? pic.twitter.com/kClExU1Msk
— Bob Schooley (@Rschooley) October 5, 2015
Any parent of a school aged child is terrified to hear what their child responds when you ask them what they do nowadays when they practice a “lock down drill”.
Yes, it’s not tuck and cover under the desks for a nucular event but in the same vein it’s not only more believable that a shooting could happen, we see it all the damn time.
My son talked me through their lock down drill and I don’t know if the urge to cry or scream was stronger.
How is this not terrorism? As a country we went to extraordinary lengths after 9-11 to make airports, federal buildings, etc secure but we let our children huddle in dark closets clutching their backpacks hoping the shooter doesn’t pick their classroom?
Let’s make our congress choose between sensible regulation for weapons and spending serious money to secure our schools.
Money or guns congress critters. Which one is more important to you?
ETA stupid phone needed spelling fixes
So glad to see some increased aggression in this.
Why do Liberals hate crazy people gunning down innocents?
Will no one think of the guns?
@Corner Stone: Some crazy wingers think that these tragedies are false flag operations designed to take away their guns.
@MomSense: Sorry for shouting, but YES IT IS TERRORISM. This article made me think about this differently:
How We All Miss the Point on School Shootings
May 27, 201414 minute readby Mark Manson
@efgoldman: I didn’t want to tar all the crazies with the same brush, hence the hedging.
Iowa Old Lady
First, nobody is proposing making guns illegal. Second, this analogy makes me crazy. It’s like saying it’s futile to set speed limits, since some people exceed them. And people still die in auto crashes, so why require seat belts? It basically says we can’t do a single thing because whatever that thing is won’t solve every problem.
Maybe the NRA should be required to allow open carry in their national headquarters.
Liberal With Attitude
Finally, about fucking time.
And the gun nuts intimidate and threaten anyone who speaks out about our insane lack of commons sense gun regulations.
Sorry for the OT, but please keep in mind that the Seahawk offensive line is catastrophically awful. If not the outright worst in the NFL then certainly one of the half dozen worst. Anything they accomplish offensively is with approximately zero help from the line.
@Iowa Old Lady:
You know that if, by some miracle of political will, we were able to enact a few mild pieces of legislation — background checks, waiting periods, training and insurance requirements — and then someone shot someone, the NRARWNJs would be all “Toldja it wouldn’t work, TOLDJA!!“
Just read the article. Wow. Will share with everyone I know.
@Iowa Old Lady:
I am proposing that. I might be willing to settle for less, but that’s what I am proposing.
I grew up shooting guns. And my Granddads rifle is in the basement. But I am done. A good percentage of the people in this country who are most vocal about having guns have absolutely no business having them. Nor do they have a need for them. I am done.
Since the National Rifle Association doesn’t believe that safety regulations ever work, we should make it a requirement that ALL NRA members have their cars’ safety belts removed, their houses covered with lead paint, and all their food and medicines provided without FDA approval and lacking expiration dates.
The right of criminals and mentally unstable people to own guns shall not be abridged
Make these fuckers own that.
NRA for legalizing meth? I could believe it. That is, we do still hold some drug makers and drug distributors responsible for how their products are used.
Wow. Congratulations. That’s a very big deal.
Like when Ta-Nehisi Coates gave up watching football because of the brain injuries. Before he made the decision he wrestled with it, saying
Similar to having a heritage of guns, and while that heritage is not about anything but responsible use, still saying no more.
Pie Happens (opiejeanne)
@schrodinger’s cat: The asshat sheriff of Douglas county, Oregon where the latest mass murder took place (unless there was one today), said publicly that Sandy Hook was a hoax.
Pie Happens (opiejeanne)
@Heliopause: Seattle’s ahead, 10-3 just before the half.
The guy I looked up to like a father taught me to shoot and introduced me to hunting and I loved it. The whole experience of being in the woods and stalking was enjoyable and I love the taste of game. I even became an NRA member because of the million dollar insurance policy they provided should I get shot while hunting. I dropped my membership in the mid 1970s because I could see them going nuts. I have not hunted in 15 years or more now. I blame those crazy fuckers for that. I am done too.
@Iowa Old Lady: Exactly right. Walk them all the way through it: would they rather that there be no laws, that no one bother to apprehend people in the commission of something dangerous/deadly to another citizen or group of citizens (or even to themselves)? Of course not.
I swear, I have never seen so many FOX News-viewing friends and family so suddenly engaged and informed on inner-city shootings – you’d almost think it was a ginned-up distraction or something. Bill O’Reilly’s statement last night was priceless: (paraphrased) “There is absolutely nothing that can be done public policy wise and no way to stop it.” Really, Bill?
@SiubhanDuinne: That’s their strategy with Iran (and everything else in the Middle East, too): any instability, killings, beheadings, bombings of anywhere ever, for time evermore, is because Obama, that’s why.
I say we go for broke and bring back the debate about what the Second Amendment really says. their heads will explode.
Mike in NC
About 15 or so years ago I worked with someone who took a job as a computer programmer at the NRA HQ in Fairfax, VA. I’d have liked to land that gig if it meant I could have installed a virus in their network to wipe out all their databases.
I like this suggestion: treat gun-buying like getting an abortion.
@Pie Happens (opiejeanne):
So…. The Oregon shooting was a hoax. No one was shot. Why is the sheriff of Douglas county wasting the public’s time by having a press conference about anything?
This dope doesn’t understand how he aids and abets insanity.
Yup. Also, too, climate change.
The NRA are bunch of cuckservative prissy loser compromisers to gun grabbers; they are effectively the gun grabbers best friend.
True gun rights supporters back groups that take a principled no compromise stand on gun rights, such as the Gun Owners of America or the Second Amendment Foundation.
Pie Happens (opiejeanne)
@Brachiator: He’s one of those idiot Constitutional Sheriffs.
This explains a lot: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/john-hanlin-gun-control-constitutional
We are on the road to LA from Seattle, passed through Roseburg yesterday. In a gas station nearby, I spotted this sign: https://flic.kr/p/zsb883 No one thought to take this down, in a state where every flag is at half-mast.
Liberal With Attitude
I keep seriously saying that.
Shift them to a defense of the existence of a so-called “right” to own a gun.
It’s a lot more fragile than people think, and the alternative , of a world like Australia, is a lot more appealing than people think.
RICO the NRA.
Charge ’em under RICO statues and seize their assets.
Every dime. Every car. Every bank account. Every building.
Charge the NRA with aiding and abetting felony murder, charge ’em under the Racketeering Involved Corrupt Organization statutes.
The next time I see or hear a guns and cars argument I think I will ask “When was the last time you rode your gun to work or church?”.
@SiubhanDuinne: Read about your friend’s passing downstairs. So sorry to hear of your loss.
Re: Lockdown Drills
“It’s time to stop rehearsing our deaths and start screaming.”
I have a friend who has several guns for hunting and target shooting. I just found out that due to a decades old drug conviction, he can’t legally own any guns. He just buys them at gun shows and from private parties. Until we get rid of the gun show exemption to background checks we have no chance of keeping guns out of the hands of those who shouldn’t have them.
Of course, I don’t know why anyone would need a gun. We don’t live in Somalia, although I think the NRA would like to turn the U.S. into a failed state. Think of the gun sales!
Adam L Silverman
@MomSense: Unfortunately they don’t want to spend money on either education or security. Or, rather, they want to divert the funding for education to the private sector through the charter school movement.
And to be honest, if you take a few days and read through the comments threads on the most popular firearms sites, the comments threads are full of replies and responses that argue that public education is statist indoctrination of socialism intended to make your children pliant, compliant, and stupid.
Adam L Silverman
@schrodinger’s cat: Including the recent Oregon shooters mother.
“Puppets” makes it sound like they’re made out of actual solid matter as opposed to vapor.
Another Holocene Human
@greennotGreen: Note how the loophole also removes whites from the constituency agitating for felon rights restoration, a giant scandal in this country.
Adam L Silverman
@Iowa Old Lady: Unfortunately you know that, the commenters and front pagers here know this, but a lot of other folks have decided to believe their lying eyes and ears. They are utterly, completely convinced that everything is moving in that direction. That the US government is involved in some elaborate maskirovka (Soviet deception operation) that will eventually and ultimately result in such an attempt.
The problem with even trying to have a dialogue, let alone a debate or discussion, on this topic is that for a very specific set of gun owners we’re using the same words to speak different languages. For the 2nd Amendment maximalists, sometimes referred to as absolutists, you’re either a maximalist or your suspect. Folks who have expressed interest in firearm ownership only interested in hunting are considered suspect and referred to as Fudds after Elmer Fudd. As I indicated in my response to MomSense – just spend a few days reading comments at some of the top firearms sites and you’ll see people actually engaging with the published/posted material; a lot of commenters responding to complete misreadings of the published/posted material; and then a lot of folks going on and on about the need for/upcoming revolution.
For these folks its always the No True Scotsman phenomena. They are frustrated, they are in some cases angry, they get far too much of their information about what is going on in the world from far to few and often unreliable outlets, and they are not interested in engaging with anyone in good faith. You’re either with them or you’re an “anti”.
As I indicated in some comments last week to another post, I accidentally (as in I didn’t write the publisher of the site intending to do so) did a guest post at one of the top firearms sites about a month ago. And because it wasn’t intended, the standard bio I use wasn’t included. The comments thread was an interesting case study in the sociology, homology, and shared ideation of a subculture. Some engaged with my post in good faith. Some responded to what they wanted to read into what I wrote that I hadn’t. Others just quickly descended into the discussion about when the revolution might/should occur and who would actually lead it. All I was pointing out was: 1) the US Holocaust Museum does actually have exhibits dealing with armed resistance during WW II; 2) that the German firearms laws, which were actually passed during the Weimar Republic, are actually more ambiguous than often referred to; 3) that the reality of Jewish German life – in population numbers and social/political dynamics – in conjunction with what the NAZIs wanted to do (Kristallnacht, party member control, disinformation campaigns, etc) and did do did not lend itself to any reasonable analysis that Jewish German armed resistance in 1939 and 1940 would’ve actually made any real difference; 4) that there was both formal state and informal non-state resistance, but much of it came after 1942 and was largely ineffective; and therefore 5) trying to draw any real comparative lessons between this experience and the US or the 2nd Amendment is really not a very productive effort.
Same words, different languages. No acceptable middle ground or areas for compromise.
Adam L Silverman
@PaulW: What’s happened is that the NRA is routinely panned for being proactively involved for attempting to shape earlier forms of firearm related regulation. This is reinforced by the disdain that many still have for Smith and Wesson, which also attempted to proactively engage with regulations/legislation developed under the Clinton Administration. The integral locks that have been added to Smith and Wesson revolvers are referred to, and not affectionately, as Hillary Holes and there are many commenters on firearms sites who assert that they will only buy S&W revolvers that were manufactured before the integral locks were designed into them. Some make this argument because they believe that the locks can fail, which would be a safety issue (you have a revolver because you hike, fish, as a back up for hunting, you have to draw it for self defense from an aggressive wild animal, the lock causes the firearm to fail when needed – I have no idea if this has actually happened). Others because they think that S&W actually cut a deal with the (hated) Clintons to include the locks.
The result of all of this, combined with the even more strident Gun Owners of America and National Association for Gun Rights, and the appearing to be more effective Second Amendment Foundation, is what is partially keeping the NRA where it is. The other factor, of course, was the purge in the mid 70s that led to the takeover of the NRA board by 2nd Amendment maximalists.
Adam L Silverman
@Debbie: It won’t. Gun owners that are 2nd Amendment maximalists have a very specific understanding of the 2nd Amendment and its political, judicial/juridicial, and Constitutional history. While some of the understanding is in common, so to speak, with non maximalists, as well as simply mainstream political, judicial, and Constitutional historians – gun control as a method for controlling African Americans – most of it is framed in a way to support the current Constitutional interpretation by the Supreme Court in Heller that there is an explicit individual right to keep and bear arms for self defense.
The Heller decision does, however, continue and maintain the language that reasonable regulations at the Federal, state, and local levels are permitted. This is the source of much consternation and heartburn for the maximalists who’s argument is that “shall not be infringed” is the controlling portion of the 2nd Amendment against any form of regulation – reasonable or otherwise.
I highly recommend Winkler’s GunFight for a proper treatment of all of this:
Steve from Antioch
Meanwhile, back in the real world:
Adam L Silverman
@greennotGreen: In this case, unless your friend had his full civil rights restored post punishment, which is unlikely, he’s already committing a felony – at both the state and Federal level – for each firearm he purchases this way. While I agree that having a universal background check to cover even private party sales would prevent him from doing this legally, my guess is that he knows what he’s doing is illegal and if it became impossible for him to make these purchases from private parties – whether at a gun show or through online/other advertising – he’d just buy from actual criminals.
One note on background checks and gun shows: firearms purchased from actual gun dealers, as in those that have a Federal Firearm’s License (FFL) who are exhibiting and selling at gun shows are required by Federal law as a condition of their FFLs to do background checks on all purchases. These are called commercial sales. Additionally 21 states (it may have changed by a couple recently) require, in one form or another, background checks for private sales whether at gun shows or at other venue. These are considered private, and therefore non-commercial sales and are permitted in the remainder of the states. Yes, this creates a patchwork that can be exploited.
@sparrow: I saw that today; he makes very good points about what is motivating some of these murderers. I also read this
There isn’t any easy answer; of course, it isn’t just guns, it’s not just mental health.
@Adam L Silverman: Just in case you check back here — I’d love your opinion on Dan Baum’s Gun Guys: A Road Trip.
I first read Baum’s work as a long excerpt in Harpers, and couldn’t wait to get the book. Wanted to do a Balloon-Juice “book club” and share it, but the commentors who noticed my suggestion were… not impressed by my proposal.
Pavlov programmed to vote R because of some nebulous fear
THEY’RE GONNA TAKE OUR GUNS
and so they go along with with whatever tripe the Repubs
offer up as chum to the voting public when they need votes.
It’s brainwashing on a societal scale. Quite impressive.
I go to gun shows every few years because they offer a valuable MRI into the foetid id of the far right.
You can buy anything at a gun show. And no registration required. Astrolite explosive? You got it. Thermite? They sell it by the pound. Books on how to brew up ricin or sarin or plastic explosives? They’ve got bookshelves full of ’em. Russian army sniper rifles? No problemo, how many clips do you want? 50 cal. sniper rifles that can take down a tank? Sure, do you want tungsten armor-piercing ammo with that?
Frankly, I’m amazed that the mass shootings have been so mild. The sheer amount and deadliness of the military-grade weaponry out there for sale to anyone with cash at a gun show is mind-boggling.
I love the NRA MyFaceLinkGram-ready splash. If we treated drugs like we treat guns then Nancy’s big push would have been Just Say Yes.
@schrodinger’s cat: And naturally that’s because FascoSoshulists are just as amoral as they are.
Either the market for all the heavy gear is smaller than it appears, or the mass shooters are the bottom of the wingnut barrel and society is facing the drainplug. I can’t decide which.
Adam L Silverman
@Anne Laurie: I haven’t read either. I’ll see if I can find the Harpers’ piece without running into their firewall.
I’ve been proposing Responsible Gun Ownership – LICENSING for gun owners, REGISTRATION of all guns, mandatory liability INSURANCE for all gun owners, PERMIT required for ammo purchases (or for making your own ammo). Also, a ten year ban for those convicted of assault or domestic abuse, closing gun show loopholes, felony charges for possession of high capacity magazines.
It would be a start.
Hank none of your proposed solutions will prevent what happened. Fact is we have a free society, and part of living in a free society is that things like Oregon may happen. Sorry but that’s the way it is
@A guy: With all due respect, living in a free society doesn’t mean living in a stupid society. When the government decides to lift the speed limits for cars, which are NOT designed to kill, then you can have your argument for no limits on guns, which ARE.
@A guy: That is a poor argument that we hear all too often. A particular law may not prevent a particular event. Passing the group of laws that Hank lists, however, would go a long way towards creating a climate in which responsible owning, buying, selling and using guns would be more recognized. We have to start somewhere, and those are good first steps toward sanity.
Translation: “I don’t understand statistics and probability.”
The Moar You Know
@MazeDancer: Didn’t know he’d done that. For me, it was the day they signed Michael Vick after his release from prison for dog torture and murder.
Good for Coates. It’s a hard thing to do. The Sportsball thing is a big deal in our society, especially socially.
@Hank Linderman: I’ve been proposing the same thing for years as well. Basically nothing more than we insist upon to drive a car. Won’t solve them all but it would solve most of them.
What would registering all guns done to have prevented Oregon? Or Insurance? Or a permit for ammo. Nothing. Nothing other than make it a bit more cumbersome for the millions of us who own or collect guns. With 300 million guns in this country nothing other than a ban and confiscation of every weapon will be effective. And I guarantee that the government doesn’t want to go there.
No. You don’t live in a free society. You live in a society where you are held hostage by a right wing gun lobby.
@CONGRATULATIONS!: All of this. Plus, repeal gun manufacturer immunity. Unleashing the plaintiff’s bar on these a-holes will have an effect.
@Liberal With Attitude: I get the frustration we all feel about guns. But we need to abandon the idea that the “well regulated militia” language in the 2nd amendment is going to save us. The 2nd amendment means whatever the Supreme Court says it means. in Heller the court clearly said gun ownership is an individual right.
We need to focus on Scalia’s statement in Heller that the right can be regulated.
At this point guns are an attractive nuisance.
Where do you guys get your law degree? If I take my car, a dangerous instrumentality, and intentionally run over somebody, the manufacturer is not liable.
It’s wonderful when right-wingers accept the licensing and insurance required to own and operate cars is the same licensing and insurance they will accept for guns.
@Adam L Silverman:
Were you the guy who posted that at The Truth About Guns website? I do commend you for that, but those guys there are definitely not very sympathetic to anything that may go against their worldview about gun ownership. Robert Farago, owner of the site, constantly has blog entries with titles of “this is what happens to a disarmed society”.
You probably would have had a much better time sparking debate and actual dialogue if you went to the liberal gun club forum.
I too recommend Gun Guys by Dan Baum. Actually I recommend it for all readers of Balloon Juice. Not all gun owners are like Nugent, and there’s a fair percentage that are moderate and *gasp* liberal (like me)