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You are here: Home / Politics / America / An Armed Society is a Polite- DUCK! TAKE COVER! SHOPLIFTER!

An Armed Society is a Polite- DUCK! TAKE COVER! SHOPLIFTER!

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This woman needs to have the book thrown at her:

A concealed-carry license holder is now cooperating with police after she opened fire on a shoplifter who was fleeing a Home Depot on Tuesday afternoon, Auburn Hills Police said.

The shooting happened in the store’s parking lot at around 2 p.m., when Home Depot security was chasing a shoplifter in his 40s who jumped into a waiting dark SUV, said Lt. Jill McDonnell, an Auburn Hills police spokeswoman.

But when the SUV began to pull away, a 48-year-old woman suddenly began firing shots at the fleeing vehicle. The vehicle escaped – but possibly has a flat tire, McDonnell said.

The woman who fired the shots has a license to carry a firearm and is cooperating with police.

It’s not clear whether the woman would face charges in the incident.

Jesus fucking christ.

I also eagerly await learning the race of the alleged shoplifter and the shooter. I hope my suspicions are inaccurate.

Reader Interactions

211Comments

  1. 1.

    Facebones

    Well, I don’t have to guess the race of the shooter. If she was black, she’d have been gunned down in the parking lot.

  2. 2.

    Punchy

    I also eagerly await learning the race of the alleged shoplifter

    The answer is quite obvious from this blurb, “into a waiting dark SUV“

  5. 5.

    JPL

    There were two men, one who left the store with unpaid merchandise and the other who waited in the car. Both men were over forty and one was white and the other black.

    The idea that shootouts in a home depot parking lot are okay, sickens me.

  6. 6.

    peach flavored shampoo

    It’s not clear whether the woman would face charges in the incident.

    It’s within one’s legal rights to empty a clip in a public parking lot because reasons? If so….holy crap.

    Expect to see this damsel on Fox within hours.

  7. 7.

    donnah

    And yes, NRA gunatics, this is what gun ownership has become: a vigilante, macho, self-appointed law officer with a gun in a handbag and lots of attitude.

    We are so doomed.

  8. 8.

    catclub

    @Punchy:

    The answer is quite obvious from this blurb, “into a waiting dark SUV“

    Donald Trump? Chris Christie ( nope, it had the suspect running, not waddling), Dick Cheney?

  12. 12.

    BruceFromOhio

    Just wait till Concerned Carry Citizen hits a child, or a cop, in the quest to exercise her sacredness.

    If I pulled stunt like this in downtown Cleveland or Columbus or Cincinnati, I’m pretty certain the cops would be not be looking for my cooperation, they’d be informing my next of kin.

  14. 14.

    Sloegin

    Pretty sure assault with a deadly weapon for starters. Maybe throw in a depraved indifference. Unless she’s a whitey of course, then it’s just a verbal warning.

  15. 15.

    ? Martin

    @peach flavored shampoo: She was defending her macroeconomic rights WRT retail loss prevention and its effect on consumer pricing. If you squint really hard you can see that shoplifting is ultimately a form of taxation without representation which clearly violates this woman’s constitutional rights.

  17. 17.

    Face

    @Omnes Omnibus: Is there a reason she can’t claim SYG? She was in the presence of a criminal (alleged, but whatevs) and feared for her safety. Doesn’t SYG cover all sorts of such horseshit?

  18. 18.

    charluckles

    I see a lot of comments from “responsible gun owners” about how wrong this person was and how she gives other gun owners a bad name. And yet most of them would have no trouble blasting away with a high powered weapon in order to save their TV or prevent someone from stealing their car. Even “responsible gun owners” don’t give a second thought to the idea of shooting someone over a material possession.

    Get rid of the f*cking guns!

  25. 25.

    Howard Beale IV

    @catclub: You’d be right: Auburn Hills is in Oakland County, MI. Big employers there are Chrysler and Comerica.

    In Auburn Hills. I think it’s too late to save this country.

  26. 26.

    kc

    @BruceFromOhio:

    Just wait till Concerned Carry Citizen hits a child, or a cop, in the quest to exercise her sacredness.

    http://wpde.com/news/local/no-charges-filed-in-accidental-shooting-at-inlet-square-mall?id=719905

    ETA: Not a child or a cop, but dumb-ass shot a man in the leg INSIDE THE MALL at a ceremony for veterans.

    The dumb-ass prosecutor didn’t charge her in part because the mall’s signs prohibiting guns didn’t strictly comply with SC’s dumb-ass law.

  27. 27.

    JPL

    Earlier when I mentioned the story to a friend, my friend mentioned that the woman must have been a good shot in order to shoot at the tire. I politely mentioned that we have no idea what/who she was aiming at.

  28. 28.

    David Koch

    This is worse than ISIS. They don’t shoot shop lifters they only cut off their hands. they’re far more lenient than “Christians”

  30. 30.

    pamelabrown53

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    In what universe does non law enforcement get to open fire in a parking lot and face zero consequences? Hell, what law enforcement officer would do that? Surely against protocol for a misdemeanor.

    How about focusing on the license plate?

  31. 31.

    RSA

    @JPL:

    Earlier when I mentioned the story to a friend, my friend mentioned that the woman must have been a good shot in order to shoot at the tire.

    Whatever the outcome of the shoplifting case, I hope that the shooter is charged with assault with a deadly weapon. And if the authorities don’t do it, I hope a civil case is brought. She’s nuts.

  34. 34.

    ThresherK (GPad)

    So the vehicle has a flat tire? I will wait til all comes out, but if she only shot at the tires rather than attempted killshots, I would be surprised.

    And just the slightest touch relieved. Which shows how vigilantism has screwed up so badly. “I only shot at the tires” should not be an exonerating statement to police.

  35. 35.

    dedc79

    I was saying just yesterday that when gun control advocates look at a gun we see a weapon designed for the express purpose of taking another life, while when gun nuts look at a gun they see one of Batman’s fancy crime-fighting gadgets.

  36. 36.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    “I was trying to help police by shooting out the tires, like on TV. I wasn’t worried about hitting anyone because I’ve won marksman of the year (ladies’ division) at the Shooting Club three times!”

    Fifty quatloos says this woman’s Xmas card features her posting with a gun while wearing a Santa hat. Maybe it’s funny, like she poses with her foot on a dead reindeer. Or religious, she stands next the manger, protecting our Lord and Savior with something a little more effective than a shepherd’s crook and those pansy foreign “kings”!

  37. 37.

    Mandalay

    Meanwhile, an 11 year old boy will have to spend the rest of his life knowing that he killed his brother…

    An 11-year-old boy fatally shot his 12-year-old brother during a target-shooting outing in eastern Ohio, the local sheriff said Tuesday…

    The sheriff said the men had three loaded weapons on a picnic table Friday afternoon and were discussing one when the younger boy picked up one of the guns and it fired. The older boy was struck in the head and died at the scene. No one else was hurt.

    The county coroner told The (Canton) Repository newspaper that an autopsy would be conducted.

    Williams said Tuesday that the shooting appears accidental and no criminal charges had been filed, but authorities confiscated all the weapons.

    I can’t imagine what mental state that kid is in right now.

  38. 38.

    BobS

    This was a stupid fucking thing to do and the shooter should be charged and prosecuted to the max, which is certain to be the case if local public sentiment is taken into account. My suspicion is that John Cole’s suspicion is a white gunowner shooting at a black shoplifter (the identity of the shooter has yet to be revealed while the shoplifters are black and white guys), but keep in mind while making whatever is your point that the overwhelmingly black city of Detroit (of which Auburn Hills is a suburb) has had a few issues of it’s own with the responsible and intelligent use of firearms. Dumb shits with guns is an issue that transcends race in America.

  39. 39.

    Joel

    When I was a retail schlub, I caught shoplifters from time to time.

    Here’s what I would do:

    1) Tell them to return the stolen merchandise

    then

    2) Tell them to fuck off

    Works every time.

  40. 40.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Mandalay: when I saw 11 year old boy, I thought you were going to link to the kid in TN who shot his 8 year old neighbor because she wouldn’t let him play with her puppy. The boy had a history of bullying, specifically the little girl he killed.

  46. 46.

    celticdragonchick

    @charluckles:

    And yet most of them would have no trouble blasting away with a high powered weapon in order to save their TV

    If somebody has broken into a house, they generally do not get the expectation of being harmless (the notorious case from Wisconsin where a sociopath lured two teens into his home so he could kill them as intruders is a significant exception), nor do the occupants of a house have any duty to retreat from their dwelling place.

    I don’t care if an intruder has my TV or not. I will absolutely shoot to kill unless he is hauling ass out the back door as fast as he can. I don’t give a shit what his motive is. My assumption is that he is dangerous to me and my family and he took it upon himself to invade our home. If he didn’t want to get shot, he merely could have, oh…I dunno…not invaded our home.

  47. 47.

    Paul in KY

    @Mandalay: Saw another 11 year old that murdered his 8 year old neighbor. Wouldn’t let him play with her puppy & he dusted her. Complete tragedy for victim/family.

    Edit: See Jim beat me to it.

  48. 48.

    JPL

    @Mandalay: Until they charge the adults, some parents will not keep their guns, locked and out of reach of children. Even if they are suffering from their own stupidity, let them suffer in jail.

  49. 49.

    celticdragonchick

    @BobS:

    This was a stupid fucking thing to do and the shooter should be charged and prosecuted to the max,

    yep. Idiot trying to be a cop for no particular reason.

  50. 50.

    Roger Moore

    @BruceFromOhio:

    Just wait till Concerned Carry Citizen hits a child, or a cop, in the quest to exercise her sacredness.

    It’s happened. There was a well-publicized incident a week or two ago about a would-be hero trying to stop a carjacking and shooting the victim instead of the perpetrators.

  51. 51.

    SatanicPanic

    @charluckles: yeah, I had a gun owner friend bring this up when I said I don’t want a gun “what if someone tries to steal your car?” Uh, fine, let them take it. Not worth taking a life over.

    EDIT- Not to mention I’d rather not go to jail for killing someone. There’s that too

  53. 53.

    GregB

    Wayne LaPierre is mailing off the NRA citizen of the year citation for this nitwit as we read and write.

    Ben Carson got aroused after reading this news item too.

  56. 56.

    celticdragonchick

    @pamelabrown53:

    Hell, what law enforcement officer would do that? Surely against protocol for a misdemeanor.

    The moment a cop says “I was afraid for my life” ALL THINGS the officer does immediately become permissible.

    Kinda like how beatings are always kosher as long as the cop keeps yelling “Stop resisting!” while the victim is just outside the view of the dashcam.

    Funny how these things work.

  59. 59.

    Booger

    There is some weird irony going on here. On October 14, 2002, Linda Franklin was murdered by John Allen Muhammad in a Home Depot parking lot in Falls Church, Virginia, one of the “Beltway Sniper” attacks.

    Lowe’s, anyone?

  60. 60.

    Mandalay

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Ugh – I had not seen that awful story. But the kid you are referring to is (allegedly) a murderer who chose to pull the trigger. I am less concerned about his mental state than whether he will have access to another gun.

    But to accidentally kill your brother (or anyone close to you) is an unimaginable tragedy for the killer, especially when you are only 11 years old.

    I’d guess that those who accidentally kill someone suffer far more than those who do it deliberately, regardless of what happens within the justice system.

  61. 61.

    Keith G

    @Face:

    Is there a reason she can’t claim SYG? She was in the presence of a criminal (alleged, but whatevs) and feared for her safety. Doesn’t SYG cover all sorts of such horseshit?

    She can claim what she likes, but I would think it very unlikely that the “system” would agree.

    I imagine local law enforcement is quite unhappy with “civilians” firing off rounds at fleeing suspects in a crowded retail environment. They will probably move to discourage such future actions.

  62. 62.

    Howard Beale IV

    @Paul in KY: The shooter’s parents should be charged with failing to secure a firearm, and the victim’s parents should sue the shooter’s parents violation of the child’s civil rights.

  63. 63.

    Punchy

    There’s a near-zero chance she’s charged. After all, crime and blahs and tinted windows and scary and Macho Home Depot Cavewoman Hunts Black Bear and guns and white suburb and concealed weapons cannot fail, only be failed.

    Cops aint immune to local politics. A black woman shooting at a cracker gets 3-5 for assault with a DW; cracker crazy dropping plates on a Strappin Young Buck gets key to the city and Hannity face time. No charges…no way.

  64. 64.

    celticdragonchick

    @Keith G:

    If they haven’t arrested her yet, I tend to think they won’t (Although they should). She may lose her CCW for cause, but that is speculation.

  65. 65.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    @celticdragonchick:

    You do need to be very, very careful to be sure it’s really an intruder, especially if you have kids or teenagers in the house. There are way too many sad stories about teens who were accidentally shot by parents or grandparents when they tried to sneak in after curfew or kids who were shot while sleepwalking.

  66. 66.

    Paul in KY

    @Mandalay: I agree. The poor child who made a 2 second mistake & now his older brother is dead. Assuming the dumbasses who left the guns in reach are also hurting.

    The other 11 year old kid sounds like a sociopath (from the news reports).

  69. 69.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Paul in KY: On a different note, I spoke to my neighbor with a Maserati on your behalf. He said don’t do it–it’s a cool, fun car, but maintenance is a bitch and it lacks the performance and luxury of German sedans. You can get way more car for for the money with a MB, BMW, or even Audi. Said he wishes he had gotten a loaded 5-series instead.

    Of course, he got the Ghibli instead of the Quattroporte. His fault for being cheap, I suppose!

  70. 70.

    Eric S.

    @BruceFromOhio:

    I’m pretty certain the cops would be not be looking for my cooperation, they’d be informing my next of kin.

    I’d say somewhat rightly so. To state the obvious, bullets keep flying (within limits) until they hit something. Or someone. Not that I wish harm on anyone but maybe what we need are some of these ammosexuals gunned down by the police while exercising their 2nd Amendment rights.

  71. 71.

    celticdragonchick

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):

    Agree, although my kid (autistic) is very, very regimented in his bedtime and sleep habits. I ALWAYS identity myself and demand answer when I have investigated something strange in the house (and actually, it really is best policy to wait in a bedroom or hall and let the criminals come to you if you are absolutely sure you have bad guys in the house) and my kid’s door is right next to mine. Easy to see if he is up and about for some reason.

  73. 73.

    BobS

    @charluckles: I’m a “responsible gunowner” who would presume the worst possible intentions of anyone showing up unannounced inside my house at 3AM and have no second thoughts about pulling a trigger. What would be your plan between discovery of an intruder and the arrival of the police?
    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): Auburn Hills is a 20% black city bordering 50% black Pontiac.

  74. 74.

    Roger Moore

    @Mandalay:

    The sheriff said the men had three loaded weapons on a picnic table Friday afternoon and were discussing one when the younger boy picked up one of the guns and it fired. The older boy was struck in the head and died at the scene.

    It’s amazing to me how the whole “guns don’t kill people, people kill people” disappears when there’s a gun accident. Suddenly, the gun is perfectly capable of firing by itself without human intervention, and the death is completely the gun’s fault. Maybe the gun fired by itself- unlikely- but it sure as hell didn’t load itself and leave itself sitting there were a poorly trained kid could get his hands on it.

  75. 75.

    NorthLeft12

    I will not be surprised when this heroic citizen is charged with nothing more than a misdemeanor.

    From across the St. Clair River it looks like Michigan has fallen deep into the right wing crazy pit. Although my longtime experience [we had family and friends that lived just south of Detroit] was that they were well on the way there since the early seventies. Nineteen, not eighteen, FYI.

  76. 76.

    The Golux

    @JPL:

    Chris Harper Mercer was a responsible gun owner, until he wasn’t.

    With notably rare exceptions, Chris Harper Mercer was a responsible gun owner.

  77. 77.

    Keith G

    @catclub: Why should we have all the fun?

    And if Russia wants to call the shots in Syria, I am beginning to wish that we bid that lil patch of hell a sincere “farewell” and calmly back away.

    I know that there would be a truck load of negative consequences stemming from that – but I am just not sure that they would be any worse than the truck load of negative consequences we get by continuing our current policy – if we actually have one.

  78. 78.

    Mike J

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    I do not want vigilantes running around with guns, like its the Chambal valley or the Wild West.

    In the wild west, people were typically required to check their weapons with law enforcement when they came into town.

  79. 79.

    NorthLeft12

    @BobS: Auburn Hills has a lot of high end homes. If there are 20% AAs, I would expect them to be very well off financially. Pontiac is a different story.

  80. 80.

    celticdragonchick

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):

    In another situation I was in, I was staying with my (then) fiancée at a home where she rented a room from her landlady. In the middle of the night, somebody (male and really drunk) began beating on the door and screaming to be let in. Scared both of us absolutely to death. I stood off to one side with a carbine and demanded to know who it was. He did not answer and was beginning to break the door down. I kept demanding identification and also kept my finger alongside (and not ON) the trigger. He kept screaming and pounding on the door.

    I guarantee you most true gun nuts would have opened fire. I had been out of the army only two years and I was trained to NOT fire without a proper fucking target. The guy was outside and I did not, as of yet, have need to shoot.

    Thank God he finally identified himself as the landlady’s son, whom neither of us had ever seen before and had no reason to suspect he would drive drunk to her house and start trying to break the door down.

    This was in Georgia, and 10 to 1 I would have been exonerated in a shooting. I much prefer that I waited as long as I possibly could to ascertain the situation…because it meant I didn’t need to shoot in the first place.

  81. 81.

    Mandalay

    @JPL:

    Until they charge the adults, some parents will not keep their guns, locked and out of reach of children.

    This.

    We need automatic prosecutions for shootings like this, akin to (close to) automatic prosecutions following DUI arrests. The argument that someone is not prosecuted because “they have suffered enough already” needs to be discarded.

    And the media should stop using the term “accidental shooting”. All such shootings are either “reckless availability of a deadly weapon” or “reckless use of a deadly weapon”.

  82. 82.

    Elizabelle

    From the Free Press article:

    The shooting comes just weeks after a bank customer in Warren opened fire on an armed robber, causing him to collapse from injuries. It’s not yet clear whether that man will face charges, either.

    Armed bank robbery does not equate to a fleeing shoplifter.

    Good times in Detroit.

    I’d guess the Home Depot woman is charged (with what, though?) and the Warren bank customer is not. They are very different responses.

  84. 84.

    MomSense

    “Good guys” with guns can do dumb things with guns. Armed vigilantes do not make me feel safer. Armed teachers do not make me feel safer. There is just too much risk for incompetence and accidental discharge.

  87. 87.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    @BobS:

    That’s what this Wisconsin minister thought. Unfortunately for him, the “unannounced intruder” was his teenage granddaughter:

    http://www.wkow.com/story/20348015/teen-shot-by-grandfather-is-improving

    Celtic Dragon Chick is at least a veteran, so she probably has some idea of what she’s doing and the steps she needs to take to avoid injuring or killing a family member in a case of mistaken identity. Hopefully you don’t have any kids or teens at home.

  89. 89.

    celticdragonchick

    @Roger Moore:

    And not doing a very good job of it; cops aren’t supposed to shoot at fleeing suspects unless they’re an imminent danger.

    Yes, although they keep doing it.

  90. 90.

    schrodinger's cat

    Why does one need a gun in one’s purse anyway? You are not living in fucking Somalia. Let’s just ship the gun nuts where they need to use guns to survive, since that’s seems to be their fantasy

  91. 91.

    Keith G

    @Elizabelle: I scanned the reader comments below that article and saw a majority of self-identified CPL holders typing that the woman needs to to charged because:

    It’s idiots like this who the anti-gun crowd will point to & say we’re all like that.

    How right he is.

  92. 92.

    A guy

    I have seven guns in my home. I have a 12 gauge shotgun leaning next to a chair in the kitchen. It’s been there since squirrel season started three weekends ago. The kids walk by and never touch it.

  93. 93.

    Paul in KY

    @Steve in the ATL: Thank you for checking & your info. The old saw about Masers is that you have to buy 2, 1 for driving while the other is in the shop.

    I might go Tesla. Nice looking car.

  94. 94.

    artem1s

    hopefully Home Depot and the other big box stores who have been hedging on conceal carry will now get a clue. How many customers are you going to lose because they don’t want to end up dead over a needing some hardware or a light bulb? for want of a nail, indeed.

  96. 96.

    Elizabelle

    @The Golux: On the Chris Mercer situation: I know you guys are snarking.

    But he needed to take his meds; when they lived in SoCal his mom had him committed to a psychiatric center once until the doctors released him.

    Someone who is unstable without meds should not be in a house filled with weapons, or be buying them legally. I can see advocates for the disabled saying that’s punitive to those who comply and take their meds. That is true. Is it an acceptable risk, though? We need to know.

    But it should be a red flag, and it isn’t.

  97. 97.

    celticdragonchick

    @BobS:

    Mnemosyne (iPhone) is right. Figure out who the hell it is in your house before you pull the trigger. I illustrated that point above with the incident in Brunswick Georgia.

    Sure, I would almost certainly not have taken a fall for shooting and the drunk guy was being insanely stupid…but I vastly prefer to not pull the trigger and everything work out than to pull the trigger and find it was preventable.

    Also, too…I never fucking store my guns loaded. Ever. Period. No kid can come in and pull a trigger on my weapons to make them go bang. They also stay in a locked closet.

  99. 99.

    Elizabelle

    In DC area exurbs, we had a sheriff’s deputy who shot his own daughter, mistaking her for an intruder when she snuck into the garage one night. She survived, but his career did not.

  103. 103.

    BobS

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): You mean I should rethink my plan to start shooting randomly through the walls of my bedroom? Thank you for that valuable advice — you may have saved me from having to make an embarrassing explanation.

  105. 105.

    henrythefith

    I always love these people pulling guns and endangering lives to protect a big corporation….ummm Home Depot and Banks have insurance, dumbass. Oh, and there are also the real police. Christ.

  108. 108.

    trollhattan

    @Howard Beale IV:
    Yup, and jail time to every adult present for being a general dumbass. How is it anybody considers comparing weapons around the picnic table normal? Iphones, Beanie Babies, combination wrenches, sandwiches, tattoos, sure, guns, NEVER. Is that so hard?

    HORRIBLE story.

  109. 109.

    Mandalay

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Why does one need a gun in one’s purse anyway? You are not living in fucking Somalia.

    Indeed, but I can top that. A Georgia police chief slept with a gun in the bed and accidentally shot the woman he was sleeping with, leaving her paralyzed below the waist.

    Twelve month’s probation for that doozy.

  110. 110.

    celticdragonchick

    @Elizabelle:

    That is why I ALWAYS announce myself and ask for identification if I think someone is in the house.

    First, it does give a bad guy ample opportunity to flee. I don’t give a shit if he took my DVD collection (well, good luck with that) on the way out. I just want him out.

    Second, anybody like spouse or son can simply say “I’m down in the kitchen getting a some milk” and then I can go down and get a glass myself.

    Third…as I said before…YOU DO NOT FIRE WITHOUT CONFIRMING THE TARGET.

    If I am unsure, I cannot shoot. I have to be CERTAIN that an intruder is in the house, is in front of me and that my spouse and kid are BEHIND me and accounted for (not that hard, since we all sleep on the third floor)

  112. 112.

    henqiguai

    @celticdragonchick (#46):

    …nor do the occupants of a house have any duty to retreat from their dwelling place.

    Wrong, unless a number of jurisdictions (I’m especially thinking of Washington, DC, my hometown) have changed their laws. Something along the lines of – if there’s a way to leave the area it must be taken.

  113. 113.

    Eric S.

    @Paul in KY:

    I missed any earlier explanation of what you are looking for but Top Gear did a comparison between the Panamera, Quatraporte, and Aston Rapide. The Panamera performed very well but everyone (including me) agreed it is a very attractive car. YMMV

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmeeF9ZtkCA

    You’re right about the Masers’ reputation for unreliability. As far as I know nothing about that has changed.

  115. 115.

    celticdragonchick

    @Paul in KY:

    Well. yeah, you got that right.

    White transgender woman (please, no Caitlyn jokes)

    O/T…looks like I get to start as a substitute teacher here in Greensboro next week or the week after. YAY!

  117. 117.

    Elizabelle

    @trollhattan: She might get sued to a near-death experience. As should Nancy Lanza, had she survived.

    Although Laurel the Shooter’s Mom now lives in the bosom of gun-owing red America, and she may be more welcome than had this happened in the wild west of Torrance, CA.

  118. 118.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    @BobS:

    Of course, neither of the teenagers referred to by Elizabelle and myself were shot by family members through the wall, but you just keep telling yourself that it’s okay to shoot the shadowy figure on the patio or in your garage that turns out to be a family member because at least you didn’t shoot randomly through the wall.

  119. 119.

    Roger Moore

    @JPL:

    Until they charge the adults, some parents will not keep their guns, locked and out of reach of children.

    Even if they start charging adults, some parents will still be dumb asses. The penalty of a dead child is far worse than any likely criminal punishment, but it still isn’t enough to get people to treat their guns like a hazard to everyone in the home. If they think it couldn’t possibly happen to them, they won’t take steps to prevent it from happening to them, no matter what the penalty is.

  120. 120.

    Another Holocene Human

    @schrodinger’s cat: Or like multiple countries’ medieval periods, where knights were allowed to run around armed and cut down peasants or merchants where they stood on a whim.

  121. 121.

    Another Holocene Human

    A big part of the Meiji Restoration in Japan: no more carrying live steel in public!

  122. 122.

    BobS

    @A guy:I raised two kids in a house with guns. I made sure that both of them became proficient in their use and respectful of their power when they were young, but I think you’re being too casual leaving your shotgun that accessible. Even if you trust your own kids you can never be certain who they’re going to have in the house when you’re not

  123. 123.

    celticdragonchick

    @henqiguai:

    Wrong, unless a number of jurisdictions (I’m especially thinking of Washington, DC, my hometown) have changed their laws. Something along the lines of – if there’s a way to leave the area it must be taken.

    Citation?

    (Nearly) all states have some version of the castle doctrine. DC has been strange in that it was nearly impossible to own a firearm of any sort until a few years ago. NY does not allow you to use deadly force if you initiated a conflict in your house (kinda goes without saying I would think) and some states are harder than others to use a self defense in the home legal defense. Nonetheless, the castle doctrine is a solid common law tradition and I have not heard of any state that requires you to actually flee your domicile if you are attacked, although use of deadly force may be very iffy. I tend to think any DA trying to prosecute a “fail to flee your house” case these days would quickly be looking for another job.

  124. 124.

    trollhattan

    @Elizabelle:
    Yup, it’s an interesting mother-son dynamic that although he was adult, he was living in her house, had openly amassed an absurdly large weapon cache and, like the Lanzas, they had bonded over shootin’ even as both had mental developmental disabilities. While the county seems quite the rootin-tootin-shootin place I can’t imagine all the victims’ families will leave this avenue untraveled.

    I do not know if her Asperger’s was self-diagnosed–given her being a nurse who dispensed on-line advise–or an actual diagnosis. Or if she was/is on meds herself.

  125. 125.

    Bill

    @Mandalay:

    We need automatic prosecutions for shootings like this, akin to (close to) automatic prosecutions following DUI arrests.

    I live in a state where first offense DUI is not even a crime. I don’t have high hope for automatic prosecution of anyone.

  126. 126.

    trollhattan

    @RK:
    Bzzzt, wrong: Several states have more firearm deaths than traffic deaths, yet vastly more people use motor vehicles. Now how do you suppose that’s possible?

  127. 127.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    @celticdragonchick:

    That sounds like the house I grew up in. My dad’s guns were locked up in a room in the basement that only he had a key to. The only time one of us kids was allowed in there was under his direct supervision.

    After we moved out of that house, it turned out that he also had a handgun that he kept in the safe in my parents bedroom (unloaded and inside a locking case, but with a box of ammo also in the safe). Even my mom didn’t know it was in there.

    He got a bit more sloppy once all of the kids were out of the house and they retired to Arizona (he should not have been letting my mom keep a gun in her glove compartment), but he always did a sweep of the house and made sure everything was locked away before any grandkids showed up.

    I don’t know when being an irresponsible asshole who can’t keep track of their weapons became something to celebrate among gun nuts, but it sure has swung 180 degrees since I was a kid.

  128. 128.

    Another Holocene Human

    @Joel: I take it you never worked in Newton, Massachusetts. I walked into a CVS downtown and a lady in a wheelchair was loudly telling the manager that it was her constitutional right to be there, while the manager informed her that she had been trespassed for multiple incidents of shoplifting and she was not welcome in that store any more.

    Same ‘burg where a lady with rage issues sucker punched a cop, then sued the department for wrongful arrest. (She lost.) The leadup was, get this, she was letting her dog shit all over the park even though cleanup your nasty dog’s poo signs were posted all over as well. The obstreperous cop rolled up on her (on foot) and suggested–politely! this is Newton, after all–she in fact clean up the doggy doo.

  129. 129.

    trollhattan

    @Bill:
    Wow, really? I thought the feds had minimum DUI penalty standards that states had to meet to get their highway funds. Maybe they’re weaker than I thought.

  130. 130.

    Roger Moore

    @trollhattan:

    How is it anybody considers comparing weapons around the picnic table normal?

    They were on a “shooting outing”, so comparing guns seems like a reasonable thing to do. But why you need to do it with the guns loaded and ready to fire at the first mistake is another question. I don’t own a gun, and I’ve shot one a grand total of once in my life, but even I know that elementary gun safety requires you treat every gun as loaded and never point it at anything you aren’t willing to shoot. Setting down a bunch of loaded weapons for everyone to pick up and admire is asking for somebody to be shot.

  131. 131.

    celticdragonchick

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):

    I don’t know when being an irresponsible asshole who can’t keep track of their weapons became something to celebrate among gun nuts, but it sure has swung 180 degrees since I was a kid.

    This. When our kid came along, I was adamant about keeping dangerous stuff (knives, glass, chemicals whatever) out of reach and that certainly included the guns. My kid did not even know we had firearms until he was old enough to be taught basic safety (DONT TOUCH EVER) and they were kept locked and out of reach.

    I read too many heartbreaking accounts about children finding loaded guns…and so I made sure mine didn’t get loaded and stayed locked up.

  134. 134.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    @henqiguai:

    California has had the castle doctrine for over 100 years. I think some of the SYG law tweaks to it have been whether you have a duty to retreat inside rather than treating your front lawn or driveway as part of your “castle.”

    California has also had a SYG type of law for over 100 years, but with a provision they don’t have in Florida — if you started the fight or gave chase, you don’t get to claim self-defense.

  135. 135.

    celticdragonchick

    @Roger Moore:

    Setting down a bunch of loaded weapons for everyone to pick up and admire is asking for somebody to be shot.

    YES YES YES.

    This was a violation of several fundamental rules of gun safety and the outcome is not surprising.

  136. 136.

    Another Holocene Human

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): Forget it, Celtic Dragon Chick is completely unreasonable on this issue. As in, frontal cortex doesn’t enter into it except on the back end to give words to the justification.

    Just smile and nod.

  137. 137.

    celticdragonchick

    @Elizabelle:

    Thanks!

    I love working with school groups that come to the National Battlefield at Guilford Courthouse…and now I finally have something to do with my 2 expensive degrees :)

  138. 138.

    BobS

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): It’s almost a miracle that my wife, my kids, and myself have survived all the years of late night/early morning returns home from parties, concerts, bars, etc., insomnia, and trips to the kitchen or bathroom without learning the valuable lessons of responsible gun handling this thread has provided. Hopefully I can transfer some of these lessons learned to the woods and stop shooting at squirrels and blue jays when I was expecting a deer.

  140. 140.

    Paul in KY

    @Eric S.: Thanks for link. A Rapide would be too much car for me. The Panamerica is a nice car, have seen a few. Think the Quattroporte looks the best, but, you know, Italian reliability…

  144. 144.

    Another Holocene Human

    @Paul in KY:

    Plus, the murderer needs to go to a mental home or something. That kid is not right.

    It would have to be a facility for the criminally insane (not sure what the new PC term for that is), but those are full of highly dangerous adults. There are cases of child murderers being reformed in Britain but for some reason it’s politically impossible to do here what they do there and instead we have our broken juvie system and the “try as an adult” workaround* which doesn’t provide any chance for reform, just further trauma. That’s how PeeWee Gaskin was helped on his way to becoming a serial killer: blinding rage over being raped/made a punk in grown-up prison. They still don’t know how many bodies he cut up and fed to the gators in the swamp behind his shack.

    *-11 year old Black kids get tried as adults even for minor stuff because of course they’re precocious (note the sarcasm) but somehow I doubt a white kid will get prosecuted in that way

  145. 145.

    Mandalay

    @Bill:

    I live in a state where first offense DUI is not even a crime.

    Wisconsin?

    But even there your license is automatically revoked if you refuse to be tested, and 84% of DUI arrests result in convictions.

    So my claim was somewhat inflated, but if there were convictions for 84% of “accidental shootings” I’d be over the moon. I’m guessing the current rate is less than 1%.

  147. 147.

    gussie

    I used to live in an apartment over a store in the downtown, sorta clubby area of my little city. One morning at about two, my girlfriend wakes me up and says she thinks there’s someone in the house. There’s a flashlight coming down the hallway toward our bedroom, and footsteps ten, fifteen feet away.

    If I had a gun, half-asleep, my girlfriend scared, I would’ve shot the cop who’d responded to a noise complaint in the wrong door, or he would’ve shot me.

  150. 150.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    @BobS:

    Interesting that you mistake luck for skill. Hopefully your luck will hold — I don’t wish the consequences on anyone.

    Depressed alcoholic + gun ownership = a mother (literally) cleaning up after her only son. Of course, that happened to a friend, not a family member, so I guess it doesn’t count.

  152. 152.

    celticdragonchick

    @BobS:

    What in the hell are you talking about?

    Enlighten us by all means: what do you consider safe gun handling in the home?

  154. 154.

    Another Holocene Human

    @BobS:

    What would be your plan between discovery of an intruder and the arrival of the police?

    Wow, Bob, I’m sure the intruder would catch me unawares, so how am I supposed to get the drop on him/her?

  156. 156.

    Another Holocene Human

    @celticdragonchick: I have a young friend who sent a man like that packing at a similar hour armed with a very loud parrot and a very convincing “obey me” voice.

  157. 157.

    celticdragonchick

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):

    The sun is out for the first time in two weeks, I start work soon as a substitute teacher and my back pain is tolerable. It’s a damned good day, all things said. Hell yes we are cool!

  158. 158.

    Bill

    @Mandalay: Indeed – Wisconsin. Where we treat DUI like some kind of prank. Yes, there are prosecutions, but the penalties are laughably weak. We have an appalling number of drivers with 5 or more DUI’s who still have their licenses.

    But this is really a thread-jacking, which was not my intent.

  159. 159.

    henqiguai

    @celticdragonchick (#122): <p.Sorry, celticdragonchick, no citation. Experience, grew up in DC and was licensed armed security for a while (a loong time ago). Recall news stories out of DC such as a homeowner awoke to find his mother and daughter struggling with a naked intruder; he killed him with a bat coming out a window. Which lead to other news stories about various places requiring the resident to attempt to escape *before* resorting to armed resistanceself-defense. Not really sure about my current state (Massachusetts) but I have some vague recollection of a similar flee-first then defend silliness. There ain’t that many castle doctrines on the books outside of some very red locales that I have heard. Not that I care, defense of family and self is one my fundamental human rights; as a matter of doctrine I would rather be defending a manslaughter charge that be pushing up daisies in my own right.

  161. 161.

    Roger Moore

    @trollhattan:

    Several states have more firearm deaths than traffic deaths

    Sure, but traffic deaths are only part of the picture of how deadly cars are. The latest figure I saw said that automotive air pollution is responsible for 53,000 deaths per year in the US, which is far more than the number of traffic fatalities.

  162. 162.

    RK

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):

    @trollhattan:

    I’m looking at total numbers and most gun deaths are due to suicide I believe so you may want to check your ahem. And now I must depart…with the numbers and their context on my side I must say. :) Remember that this should be the new logo for this site.

  164. 164.

    celticdragonchick

    @henqiguai:

    yeah, NY has some bit that you “cannot use deadly force if you know with certainty that you can avoid an intruder by retreating ” which is a provision big enough to drive a freaking panzer tank through. Unless something is really strange about the use of force in the home, a DA would be hard pressed to prosecute since that would be a real, real hard sell to any jury.

  167. 167.

    Matt McIrvin

    @RK: Car deaths have been dropping for decades, while gun deaths (as far as people can tell) are close to flat but slowly rising.

    For 2014 the national number of car deaths was only slightly higher than gun deaths, and if trends continue, the lines will cross in 2015:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/01/americas-top-killing-machine/384440/

    The gain is in suicides. (Guns aside, I would like to know more about why that is.) Homicides have been dropping, though I wouldn’t be too surprised to see a tick up this year. Accidents, while they get a lot of attention, are a relatively small contributor.

    Gun-advocate pages purporting to debunk the dangerousness of guns vs. cars tend to consider only accidents; fatal gun accidents are indeed much less common than fatal car accidents. But a lot of people deliberately kill themselves with guns.

  168. 168.

    celticdragonchick

    Thanks everybody for the well wishes. Going to lay down for a bit, so see you all soon.

  169. 169.

    BobS

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): Interesting that you don’t understand what I meant when I wrote “proficient in their use and respectful of their power” in an earlier comment (although it’s true that ‘skillful’ would have been shorter). Also interesting you don’t understand mockery.
    “Depressed alcoholic + gun ownership = a mother (literally) cleaning up after her only son” sounds like a suicide, which while admittedly a tragic consequence of gun ownership is not exactly the same as mistaking a family member for a home intruder.

  170. 170.

    Another Holocene Human

    @celticdragonchick: I did, and you proved my point.

    I’m doing this thing called Mindful Meditation. It’s supposed to help with the paranoia. There’s a book about how to do it, but some people have made sample recordings (I find that easier). Supposed to rewire your brain over time if you do it every day.

  175. 175.

    Eric S.

    @Paul in KY: I don’t know if there are any good long term reliability numbers on the Tesla. I see a ton of them around Chicago. I think they are leading the industry towards the mid-term future. I wouldn’t rule that out if it is in the wheelhouse you are looking at.

    Personally, I need to get my air-cooled 911 secured before they are all hidden away in garages.

  177. 177.

    Another Holocene Human

    @Paul in KY: I’m just saying, the hole where they put violently criminal but unstable people (or the few adjudicated insane by the courts, I think a number of these folks are transfers from other prisons) is a wholly differently place from a mental hospital where civilians go when they get committed.

    The first is a prison, a very nasty one. The second should be more of a hospital setting (though often more like a nursing home with involuntary committals).

  178. 178.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    @RK:

    Trollhattan made a specific claim that there are states that have more gun deaths than auto deaths. You disputed that. The CDC study I linked to backed up that claim. And now you’re claiming g you were talking about something else entirely.

    You’re going to hurt your back moving the goalposts that fast.

  179. 179.

    Haydnseek

    @A guy: You shoot squirrels with a shotgun? Who the fuck are you, Elmer Fudd? Oh, and lots of kids, or their friends, never touch guns. Until they do.

  180. 180.

    Another Holocene Human

    @celticdragonchick: Well, she was shaking like a leaf afterwards.

    Especially because the property owner was fucking everybody over by reusing locks, which is how he broke in.

    The parrot was a lot funnier if you walked in there with industrial earplugs, though.

  182. 182.

    celticdragonchick

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Proved your point? Mnemosine and I are both in agreement, and you were specifically told everything is cool. I’m not sure what you are talking about at this juncture. There is no conflict I am aware of, so please don’t try to generate one. It’s too nice a day for that.

    I am familiar with mindful meditation and my counselor for transition taught me to use it for pain management when my back issues are particularly bad.

  183. 183.

    Another Holocene Human

    @Matt McIrvin: How can you guns aside? Simply put, a suicide committed with gun is more likely to succeed. Many people try other methods and fail to kill themselves. They are statistically less likely to then attempt again.

  185. 185.

    Another Holocene Human

    @BobS: It’s not a plan. MOST burglaries happen when the burglars KNOW nobody is home. (Often during daylight hours!) And I’d bet anything that most people caught sleeping by an evil intruder–are caught sleeper and helpless to put up a fight.

    Houses are FULL of potential weapons–kitchen knives, bleach, ammonia, hot water, wrenches, tire irons, bats, ice picks. And most victims of night intruders never have a chance to reach for any of them.

    eta: I forgot that guns are magical devices, like in The Book of Three, which can only be used by their owner, oh, and the heroes always win

  187. 187.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    @BobS:

    I pointed out the other common unintended consequence of gun ownership, but if you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend it couldn’t possibly happen to your family, be my guest. You’re the one who will have to live with the results, not me.

  190. 190.

    Paul in KY

    @Eric S.: Probably no long-term numbers in yet. there will be by time I get ready to buy something. I plan on driving the current car till it falls apart & it only has 157,000 on it (2004 Solara).

  191. 191.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Another Holocene Human: True, but my impression is that suicides in general are increasing, not just gun suicides. It’s a problem that I don’t think is entirely well-understood.

    We could, though, probably bring the numbers way down if fewer people had guns in their homes for “self-defense”.

  192. 192.

    Paul in KY

    @Another Holocene Human: Since he’s eleven, I would say the involuntary commitment. You would think (after he just wasted a poor little girl) that his parents might be persuaded to voluntarily commit him (it is not his choice at age he is).

  193. 193.

    Elizabelle

    @schrodinger’s cat: I know! He’s clinical. Used to be a well respected reporter with the Washington Post, a long time ago. Maybe his getting hired a while back was a harbinger of the new NY Times policy on covering Democrats.

    What is Edsall whingeing about now? We should send him some Depends.

  194. 194.

    Gravenstone

    @A guy: If you keep it propped up there, and loaded, then you clearly view your children – and spouse as well as yourself – expendable. All hail the mighty gun, totem to the flaccid male ego.

  195. 195.

    Paul in KY

    @Haydnseek: I’ve shot squirrels with a shotgun (a .410). The pellets don’t go very far. You’d be reckless (IMO) to hunt them with a .16 or .22 rifle. That bullet keeps on going for awhile when you miss one of the little critters.

  199. 199.

    Matt McIrvin

    @RK: I don’t think it makes sense to discount suicide as a risk of gun ownership. Like homicide, it’s just not true that people who commit suicide are all hell-bent on it and will find a way regardless. It’s also dangerous to assume that you’ll never be in the situation where it’s a concern.

  200. 200.

    Paul in KY

    @Howard Beale IV: There can be, with a really crappy firearm. Some of the old SKSes that were made in PRC or N. Korea & were of very poor quality were known to very occasionally fire if round in chamber & gun was jostled in a certain way. That would only occur on some of them.

    Generally speaking, you are correct in that almost none of them would ever fire without the trigger being pulled.

  201. 201.

    Mandalay

    @Howard Beale IV:

    There is no such thing as an accidental firearms discharge. None.

    You are correct, and I was ignoring my own advice in post #81:

    the media should stop using the term “accidental shooting”. All such shootings are either “reckless availability of a deadly weapon” or “reckless use of a deadly weapon”.

  204. 204.

    benw

    @Gravenstone:

    The article failed to mention it was the spare tire hanging from the rear door of the van.

    Ha! On a different topic, does anyone know of a good place to get a tire repaired in the north Detroit area? My van’s got a flat…

  205. 205.

    BobS

    @Another Holocene Human: @Another Holocene Human: You’re right that people caught sleeping during a home invasion are unaware and helpless. I’d suggest getting a dog, ideally a dog like a German Shepherd whose storm-door rattling bark is something of a deterrent. A bonus is that they’re smart, loving, and loyal companions.
    You’re also correct that houses are full of potential weapons, like knives, bats, etc. Or a Remington 870 shotgun.
    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): My cousin killed himself with a gun. For 35 years I’ve cared for gunshot victims, both self-inflicted and otherwise. I know a little about the subject both personally and professionally.

  206. 206.

    Elizabelle

    @schrodinger’s cat: And that’s a problem because ….?

    Morning Joe had Chuck Todd on today. He informs that both parties’ leading candidates are unelectable. Talking about high negatives, I think. (Half awake.) I disagree. But he gets paid to say that stuff. Both parties.

    They are humping a Biden bid so hard. I hope their letdown is televised despair. I shall be laughing.

    Also, CNN was on, talking about Hillary’s high negatives.

    I wish someone would poll us about MJoe and CNN and whether we could give them high negatives. I sure would.

  207. 207.

    Bill

    Can I ask where people with deep concerns about protection from “home invasions” live? I’ve lived in cities, towns, rural areas and some of the densest urban settings on earth. Not once have I been the victim of a home invasion. Nor do I personally know anyone who has.

    I know anecdotes are not data, but guns seem like a dangerous solution to a non-problem. Particularly when some good locks and a cell phone are probably more effective anyway.

  208. 208.

    Mnemosyne (iPhone)

    @BobS:

    And yet you’re fine with our current lack of any kind of reasonable gun control. I guess that like Ben Carson, you think those gunshot wounds you’ve treated aren’t as bad as the damage to our civil liberties would be, amirite?

  210. 210.

    A guy

    Just got home and getting ready to watch the pirates whip the cubs. My shotgun is just where I left it untouched by my kidd

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