.
Jeb Lund, at Rolling Stone:
Perhaps you have heard of DraftKings and FanDuel, the two daily fantasy sports sites that now occupy every bit of digital advertising real estate not currently squatted by Flash ads for FACEBOOK OF SEX or SHOOT THE BENGHAZI TO WIN A FREE iPAD WITH HILLARY CLINTON’S EMAILS. And they’ve spread to TV…
If this alone were the shittiest thing about DraftDuel, dayenu, but of course it’s not, because this is America, where billion-dollar arbitrage contests outfitted with a media wing can always become structurally predatory and awful. On Monday, the New York Times reported that a DraftKings employee won $350,000 using his site’s proprietary information to make more informed plays on FanDuel. A FanDuel employee with access to insider data has also played on DraftKings, and both companies allowed employees to participate in daily fantasy while also working in it. We did it, folks: we found a way to gild that turd.
Daily fantasy would have been fine sucking on the merits. Despite assertions that it’s a game of skill, it sure seems like organized gambling, in the sense that the exact margin between making it entertaining for you and wildly profitable for the house has already been determined. Like any casino game, it sits in the sweet spot between systemic extraction and sporadic dopamine rushes. You’re screwed, because you’re supposed to be – unless you’re one of the skillful, lucky or sainted few to beat the odds, and if you didn’t know you were one of them already, you’re not going to become one…
Also, political content! Since there’s money to be illicitly siphoned, apparently the creation of this form of “daily fantasy” would involve both Republican lawmakers and Roger Goodell, as explained by Diana Moskovitz at Deadspin — “The Daily Fantasy Nightmare Is Here Because The NFL Made It So“:
… If daily fantasy has, up to now, enjoyed a sort of marginal respectability, that’s largely because the NFL has embraced it as the NFL gambling option of choice, all while consistently pointing to the obviously absurd yet Congressionally-approved claim that daily fantasy isn’t gambling, but rather a game of skill. The NFL makes huge money off of daily fantasy, all without contradicting its ridiculous anti-gambling stance. And when it comes to it, the league—like any supplier at the top of the chain—knows to offer the best defense: We can’t help it if there’s so much demand for our product.
This is true enough, but leaves out an important piece of history. Daily fantasy enjoys its present place in the sports landscape because the NFL helped make it that way—directly.
It was the NFL that supported the little-discussed legislation that outlawed gambling companies from accepting payments via the Internet related to illegal bets or wagers (a roundabout way of banning Internet gambling) that also conveniently excluded fantasy sports. It was an NFL lobbyist who briefly joined George W. Bush’s White House, where he specifically worked on the rules governing how a new Internet gambling law would be enforced, solidifying daily fantasy’s bizarre position as a “game of skill.” And it’s the NFL—most of whose teams have agreements with DraftKings or FanDuel—that spends millions lobbying Congress…
Because this is a Washington story, it starts with a piece of legislation that has nothing to do with what we’re talking about. The language that gave rise to daily fantasy wasn’t in legislation about gambling, but instead was tacked onto the very bottom of a 2006 bill about, of all things, counterterrorism measures at U.S. ports. The Washington Post reported that it passed “in the waning hours of the congressional session that year and was approved without getting a separate vote in the House or Senate.”The language that set up the rise of daily fantasy starts on page 69 of a 79-page document, which starts out titled “Security of the United States Seaports” and moves on to sections that include “Security of the International Supply Chain” and “Domestic Nuclear Detection Office” before tacking on the otherwise unrelated “Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement” at the very end. The carve-out is a tidbit within the definition of bets and wagers that notes the definitions exclude “participation in any fantasy or simulation sports game.”…
Despite the way the law was passed, the new rules got plenty of press coverage, which often noted that the NFL had lobbied for the law using one of its favorite clichés, the integrity of the game. But none of those stories talk about the carve-out. One of the law’s sponsors, Rep. Jim Leach, told ThinkProgress earlier this year that, basically, this mess was never his intention…
A more sinister view on this, though, was aired in the New York Post. Headlined “NFL Makes Fantasy Pass,” this article outlines a far more devious version of events, in which the NFL specifically shops around the legislation—carve-out included—with the help of Marty Gold, a former counsel to the majority leader who had gone on to become a lobbyist for Covington and Burling. The article goes so far as to cite Gold (whose firm, disclosure reports say, cost the NFL $560,000 that year) saying that the final move didn’t come from him…
redshirt
The only scam here is that it is gambling (I realize now), but classified as a game of skill.
Is there skill involved? Absolutely. Is it still gambling? Yes.
But, poker is also classified as a “game of skill” and thus exists in many places, and on TV. Is poker gambling? Most people would say so.
redshirt
This thread is going to be a moderation disaster given the subject matter.
Corner Stone
Covington and Burling…Covington and Burling…hmmm…where have I heard of them before?
Scott P.
I think the fantasy sites are indeed games of skill (ignoring for the moment the issues of insider trading and other ways of potentially cheating), but such that in effect most people are going to lose. Not much different from most carny games (those that are on the level, at least).
Whether that means they ought not to be regulated is a different question.
The Dangerman
Playing either site is basically insane unless you are a professional gambbler (wasn’t sure that word wouldn’t trip the Mad Mod thing, so misspelled intentionally).
rikyrah
Baud,
you posted in the previous thread about the Heartland Monitor Poll
As a non-White person, I am not surprised by this poll.
I believe that there is a great deal of resentment amongst the MSM that they haven’t been able to pummel the President’s approval ratings, and the main reason for that is the divide between Whites and Non-Whites. Non-Whites basically approve of the performance of this President.
I believe Barack Obama has been pretty fair across the board, and has attempted to enact policies that would help the broader American population, and the least of these.
Obamacare is the first expansion of the American Social Safety Net that did NOT have in its design the exclusion of huge swaths of the American populace. It took the Roberts Court to do that.
It chafes their hide that we support the President in such large numbers.
I’ll keep on breaking it down in terms of WHITE vs.Non-Whites.
Because, it is the NON-WHITES that have kept this President’s approval numbers as high as they are, and it chafes them.
HOW DARE we don’t see POTUS as they do.
HOW DARE we see through the bullshyt to everything that this POTUS is trying to do.
We only support him because he’s Black – that’s a favorite insult. And, then, when we open our mouths to spout the POLICIES that this President has implemented that meet our approval…they pretend that they don’t hear what we’re saying.
And, yes, a great deal of the President’s support IS because he’s Black. (and not just the support from Black people. Other minorities too) He’s Black, and he and his wife are the very BEST that our community could offer this country.
And, WE SEE HOW YOU FUNDAMENTALLY DISRESPECT HIM AND HIS ENTIRE FAMILY.
And, then think that:
a) we don’t notice
b) somehow we were on Mars for the previous 43 Presidents
c) understand, to our very core, that if this is how you treat someone with THEIR credentials and bonafides..
d) we know how you feel about the rest of us, and you can talk until Jesus returns….your actions prove everything to us, and you aren’t nearly as smart as you think you are. you are as transparent as glass.
I do not say all, but a whole lotta working White class clung to,
” well, at least I’m not a Nigger.”
And, then, when a “Nigger” became President of the United States,
it was coming face to face that they had been played for fools, and had been suckers for generations.
Instead of admitting to that…somehow, their lack of opportunity isn’t because they supported and continue to support those that don’t give a shyt about them….
no, it’s the fault of the BLACK man in the White House, who is the only one who actually gives a rat’s ass about them.
rikyrah
I have no skin in the fantasy football arena, but how can folks be surprised about this happening?
You actually think there is honor amongst thieves?
Tokyokie
A few years ago, the crusty newspaper sports columnist who was a star in evening drive-time sports-talk radio, complained on air about the ads for sports touts, and within a few days, those ads were gone not just from his show but from the station.
But he retired a couple of years ago, and now that radio station’s advertising is overwhelmingly from one-day sports fantasy leagues, sports touts, and a Latvian-based online bookie service. And you know, if you can’t trust a Latvian-based online bookie service with your credit-card information, whom can you trust?
MazeDancer
Will there be significant donations from DraftKings and FanDuel for CTE research? Or funds for retired athletes – including high school and college players – with brain injury?
Georgia pays for education out of their lottery. By law lottery funds cannot go to cover tax cuts, etc, as happens in other state. Qualifying GA kids who want to go to college in GA have tuition paid. If NFL is going to destroy brains and support online gambling, something good ought to come out of it.
redshirt
I am a fantasy football addict AMA.
? Martin
@Scott P.: It’s not a question of whether it’s a game of skill or not. The question is whether it’s a fair game of skill and whether you can make it a fair game of skill.
The problem with data-driven games like this is that you can have instantaneous computer analysis and communication of information to make the game unfair. It’s effectively the same problem that the stock market is facing. That’s not to say that it can’t be regulated into a proper state, but it suggests you can regulate it effectively – and the US government is not structured in a manner that could do that. The technological advantages within the industry being regulated are so great that the regulators have no chance.
Ben Cisco
@rikyrah: Perfect, and it should be tattooed on the foreheads of every single member of the piddling, punk-ass enablers of the MSM.
redshirt
If employees of Draftkings, Fanduel, and any other like sites are making money from inside information, they must be regulated by the government or shut down.
Joel
The NFL brass is assholes all the way down.
And until recently, Bob Kraft was their number one cheerleader, so forgive me if I’m having a hard time sparing a little sympathy.
rikyrah
do folks honestly think this one guy is the ONLY one who has done this?
really?
the only one for a mere $350k?
(I know that’s a lot of money, but look at this amount in comparison to the totality of the industry)
I think the reason for so much ‘ outrage’ is so that there are no more investigations.
only one?
come on, now. wake up.
khead
Having to bet parlays in DE (instead of single games) is enough of a rip off. No way in hell I am playing on fantasy sites.
redshirt
@rikyrah: That’s what I’ve heard – that much of the winnings are actually going to employees.
If that’s the case, their needs to be lawsuits/regulation.
khead
@rikyrah:
Yup. I’ve gotten a huge kick out of the “controversy” this week.
Corner Stone
As has been reported previously, the monetization of this “industry” happened so rapidly that the companies were relying on people who were rabid fantasy players to staff their operations. How do you recruit knowledgeable addicts and then forbid them from playing? You’re certainly never going to pay them enough salary to incentivize them to refrain.
This is just a slightly more sophisticated boiler room scam.
Tokyokie
I read somewhere that to finish in the money in one of these leagues, you have to be in the top 10%. Those odds strike me as far worse than those of playing slots in Vegas, and at least with one-armed bandits, you’re not going up against opponents with sophisticated analytic algorithms.
Chris
@rikyrah:
The fact that it’s “white versus nonwhite” rather than “white versus black” is important, IMO.
As you say, “the blacks only vote for him cause he’s black” is a favorite line of theirs. Fine, whatever. Let’s say there’s some kind of black tribalism that’s the only factor there. Except it’s not just black people, is it? Everybody but white people likes Obama. Including their beloved “model minorities” who are so hardworking and awesome and OMG why can’t black people be more like them? Heck, even the Cubans, the GOP’s only minority left, are starting to come around. “Blacks are the real racists” isn’t nearly enough to cover this one.
khead
@Corner Stone:
Regulatory arbitrage. It’s the American way.
Roger Moore
@Scott P.:
Exactly this. The difference between a game of chance and a game of skill is that who wins a game of chance is completely random, while people can keep winning games of skill consistently*. That can actually make games of skill easier to cheat at, because there’s more you can do with insider information. The odds are already against a person of ordinary ability playing a game of skill against an expert, and they’re even more lopsided when the expert is allowed to cheat.
*As a practical matter, the dichotomy is artificial. Most games of skill have a component of chance that gives less capable players some chance against more capable ones, and the amount of chance relative to skill varies from game to game. But the basic point still holds; games of skill break down predictably into winners and suckers.
redshirt
@Tokyokie:
While this is no doubt true in general, the NFL ultimately is unpredictable – this week so far is a fantastic example – and some Joe Plumber can win big, and many other Joe’s can make a couple of hundred bucks.
khead
@redshirt:
Unpredictable? Speak for yourself. If New England wins I am cashing something today dammit.
khead
Ok, so, that Packer INT really helped.
jl
@rikyrah: I think you are probably right. The whole thing is a scam. And it is a gambling scam. If everyone can pick the superstars, then the advantage goes to those who can pick up lower level talent who have an unexpectedly good game, and unless you are a pro and can run stats on dozens of players who have that potential and play hundreds of games to get a slightly better than average chance of getting one those players with an unexpectedly good game, it is basically random like the deal of blackjack hand.
This garbage is basically blackjack with the house willing to tolerate some card counting as long as it does not damage their take too much.
jl
Comment with bad words removed:
I think you are probably right. The whole thing is a scam. And it is a g_m bl_ng scam. If everyone can pick the superstars, then the advantage goes to those who can pick up lower level talent who have an unexpectedly good game, and unless you are a pro and can run stats on dozens of players who have that potential and they can play hundreds of games to get a slightly better than average chance of getting one those players with an unexpectedly good game, it is basically random like the deal of bl * ck J__k hand.
This garbage is basically a complicated card game with the house willing to tolerate some card counting as long as it does not damage their take too much.
phoebes-in-santa fe
@Chris: Hey, I’m a little old white lady and I voted for Obama three times (once for senator) and I know a lot of little old white ladies who voted the same way. Of course, I currently live in Santa Fe, but still…
jl
@Roger Moore: Maybe this is legalese nitpicking, but by the definition of skill your side of the argument is using, many c _ s _ n 0 card and dice games are games of skill. I don’t see much practical difference.
elftx
The only thing random about poker is the dealing of the cards.
How you play those cards is dependent upon your skill…not pressing a button on a slot machine.
Draft King and poker need to be regulated.
Sheldon can cry all he wants about online stuff but it’s not verboten in his joints and that is the only place he wants it allowed…so why is that ok?
rikyrah
@Chris:
I still believe the poll post November election that shocked them was that Asians voted for PBO in higher percentages than even Latinos.
They had the ‘meme’ ready, but when all the non-Whites in this country voted for PBO…
and Whites voted for Willard 60%….
and, it didn’t even matter – Electoral College or Popular vote wise.
got folks shook.
60% of White folks made a decision..
and the Non-Whites in this country said.
” this man is MY President…now, go sit down.”
got them shook.
ruemara
I thought everyone knew it was gambling. How else do you win money?
rikyrah
Propane Jane @docrocktex26 3h3 hours ago
Black Councilman Tasered in Town Where Sandra Bland Was Arrested, Same Deputy Involved http://nbcnews.to/1P6BRD5 via @nbcnews HELLO?!?!
jl
@rikyrah: I think it is a combination of bigotry and racism and economics, though I admit I am just guessing from a news report I heard yesterday.
Obama’s approval ratings have gone up a lot in California over last year, and he is a net positive here. What is the difference.
Well, maybe California population is somewhat less racially biased than in other states, but I am not sure how much.
Economic growth in most populous metro areas in California, reflected in measures like per capita personal income, is much higher than in most other areas of the country. I think that plays a big role. I understand that GOPers who know that CA is a commie dystopia know that cannot be true, but it is true.
Jack the Second
@Chris: Al Fuckin’ Gore got 92% of the black vote.
MattF
It’s mildly amusing that this stuff is coming out at the same time that the LIBOR insider scandal is inching back into the news. In fact, I’m pig-ignorant about the current NFL ‘fantasy’ business, but my gut feeling is that there are certain… similarities between the fantasy football scandal and the LIBOR scandal. Except maybe that the fantasy football scandal is still at an early stage. Am I wrong?
jl
@rikyrah: Disgusting video. Looks like the police are lying. How was the guy resisting arrest when he was on his knees with his hand behind his back apparently motionless. And did the officers ever even have a reason to try to arrest him? Did they ever tell him he was in danger of being put under arrest or that they were about to arrest him? I see no indication there was an issue of him being arrested in the story or video. But looks like the cops had to think of something afterwards after they attacked a citizen from behind while he was kneeling motionless on the ground. The cops got pissed at an uppity black guy trying to find out what was going on with some people he know outside his house, so the cops decided to whomp on him.
Roger Moore
@jl:
As I understand it, there’s a bit more to it than that. There’s an additional advantage if you manage to find a good player who hardly anyone else has picked; if that guy does well, you are in position to win big. That’s where insider information comes in. If you know who is and isn’t being picked this week, it puts you in position to pick the underpicked players.
? Martin
@rikyrah: The problem with racial breakdowns like that is that it misses the generational differences. Median age of whites is 43. That is, most whites are reaching their peak earning age (usually 50) and so opportunities would inevitably decline for a host of other reasons that are longstanding.
By comparison, median african american and asian age is 32 and latino is 27. Taken as a community, these individuals would be seeing greater opportunities simply by virtue of being younger, regardless of their ethnicity.
I’ve never once seen a national survey like this any indication that race and age are so poorly correlated and that this disassociation might explain the results. It’s just remarkable. So yes, white people are statistically seeing fewer opportunities because we’re statistically old and that’s just what happens to old people. We don’t have to agree that it should be that way, but it’s that way for everyone.
jl
@Roger Moore: Yes, I agree with that, though don’t think it makes an important difference to the question of whether it is effectively a gambling game or not.
Roger Moore
@jl:
I am not arguing that there isn’t gambling going on; I’m just describing the way that people with inside information can tilt the odds in their favor.
? Martin
@jl: But it does make a difference whether it’s a fair game or not. If I have access to DraftKings data that tells me who is being bet on I can instantaneously analyze and take that data to FanDuel and have a much greater chance of making money than someone who doesn’t have that data. That’s the problem. If it’s a rigged game of skill, that doesn’t make it better than a game of chance – it actually makes it worse.
ThresherK
@rikyrah: Heartland Monitor Poll? I demand equal media coverage for me, as I would only be included in a Coastal Elites Poll.
Unfortunately I don’t drive a cab, so neither David Brooks nor Tom Friedman will be garbling my asides into a “What are the chances? This random serf agrees with me!” column.
(PS Also, I am currently–no shittin’–shopping for a Volvo.)
jl
@? Martin: I should have said that I based that comment on one of the linked stories where a pro sports gambler said that an outsider could have gotten the same information if they know how to harvest the data available to players on the site. So, if that is true, it not truly inside information, it is information that is publicly available, but you need considerable investment to obtain it, which the vast majority of the general public doesn’t have. So that is where my analogy to card counting comes in. But the pro gambler in the link might be wrong.
beltane
@jl: California is no longer a majority white state, a fact that may have something to do with Obama’s approval ratings there. By voting for Republicans, white America has been effectively punching itself in the face for the past few decades. Their reaction has been to look in the mirror and say “Wow, I’m all f*cked up. It must be the black guy who did it to me.”
It’s very easy to decipher the attitudes of stupid, nasty people.
redshirt
@? Martin:
This is the only scandal for me. But then, I think gambling should be fully legalized.
Corner Stone
@jl:
It’s available if you are actively competing across a massive number of games/leagues.
If you’re playing three entries you’re way behind the guy who has access, from his employer, to almost the entirety of lineups and matchups.
The point being, you have to make a massive upfront investment in money and then in time to even attempt to cut back the insider advantage.
Corner Stone
There’s obviously some chance involved but the skill is in analyzing matchups and risk.
That one game where the blocking tight end catches 3 TD passes isn’t going to come up through analysis all that often enough to make a six figure difference, IMO.
? Martin
@jl: The pro gambler is wrong because it’s not just the access to the data but the speed with which it can be turned around, and there is no way that an outsider can collect and process that data as fast as an insider can. Even if you wind up with the same data, the insider has an inherent advantage in placing that bet when the odds are most favorable.
22over7
Online bookies, any way you look at it. It might get regulated in a couple of years, after enough stories get out of respectable guys losing their mortgage and the kids’ college fund on these sites.
My husband has been a fantasy footballer for more than 20 years. I know these guys. It’s going to get real ugly real fast for some families.
jl
@beltane: That is true, and why it is so hard to pick out all the reasons. But CA economic performance picked up steam to really outperform national average, at least in the huge metro areas, at same time Obama’s approval ratings in CA picked up.
But I have no doubt racism and bigotry among Whites plays a big role, i don’t deny that, it is a role enabled by bigots in the corporate press who reveal it in how they evaluate these things: that only White opinions and votes really count. Which I find disgusting. I see these miserable aged white corporate hacks on the TV spouting bigoted stuff all the time, and wonder if they understand that the way they view and frame these issues is effing bigoted and racist. Or are they so brain dead that they don’t see it?
beltane
@jl: It’s a chicken and egg situation. A big part of the reason CA’s economic performance is outperforming the national average is that CA did not elect a wingnut governor, they elected Jerry Brown instead. Why was Jerry Brown elected over Ebay lady? Because white Fox viewers don’t call the shots in California anymore. They are demographically irrelevant.
Roger Moore
@redshirt:
I think there’s also some scandal in the NFL’s hypocrisy about gambling. They have been publicly moral scolds about the evils of sports gambling and supported legislation to rein it in, but at the same time they support and profit from gambling in the form of fantasy sports. The politics behind the whole thing is also scandalous, though it’s far enough down the list of scandalous political behavior that it barely rates a mention.
jl
@beltane: Good point. That is an interesting white bigotry to election/governance regime to economic results feedback loop I had not thought of.
But, CA, especially ultra commie Northern California, and commie California in general cannot have high economic growth that benefits most of the people, because it is sclerotic and outmoded liberal nanny state socialism. Brooks is very worried and concerned about how the false hope our narcissistic dirty hippie ways will leave us living in caves, disillusioned, eating roots and bark (no, not even berries, there will be meddlesome government regulations against those).
PurpleGirl
DraftKings or FanDuel, doesn’t matter which one. I’m sick of the commercials. Just tired of them and wish they would go away.
TheMightyTrowel
@ThresherK:
ONE OF US! ONE OF US!
redshirt
@TheMightyTrowel: At least it’s not a SAAB.
catclub
@rikyrah:
Did they even ask that question for other presidents? It seems calculated to get a no answer.
catclub
@ThresherK:
I would hope that Friedman and Brooks never agree with you. It would be interesting if Friedman had to report all of the cabbie conversations, so we would know how many are crazy, and how many contradict his thesis.
EdinNJ
@Corner Stone:
How the system is gamed is very simple:
Everyone has access information to help you pick a competitive lineup. Google “daily fantasy rankings” and you can find optimal lineups everywhere. Where the system is gamed is in knowing which players are chosen more often than others. If someone at Fanduel knows that of two evenly ranked RBs. one is on 50% of the rosters and another is only on 2%, by choosing the lower-used player, he gains an advantage over 48% of the teams he’s competing with if his guy scores more points. Do that for every position, and use multiple variations over hundreds of entries, and you will win a lot more than you use.
And to address another comment up thread, no you don’t only win if you finish in the top 10%. Those are tournaments. There are 50/50s where you double your money just by finishing in the top 50% (really 45% due to the house take). So with the above advantage, it’s almost impossible not to win.
catclub
@? Martin:
This. And in addition, the question should not be expected to get many positive answers. Anyone who has been steadily employed could still say no. Anyone in some field that has done well – and has done well, but not in a field related to ‘Obama’s agenda’ could say no.
Without a comparison over time, pretty useless.
Keith G
@catclub:
Agreed.
I faintly recall from many decades ago being in a polimetrics course in which the prof railed more than once that it was just plain pointless to use a poll to analyze a behavior and draw a conclusion that the poll itself was not designed to evaluate.
Keith G
Speaking of polling (which has a very tangential relationship to the g@mbling services provided by the two companies mentioned above), there is a very great episode of the podcast, Drinking & Talking. The blerb:
Drinking and talking with Stein are Bill McInturff (McCain), Anna Greenberg (many Dems), Amy Walter (The Cooke Report) and Mark Blumenthal (senior polling editor of the Huffington Post and the founding editor of Pollster.com). It’s an hour plus long and it plays out like a very entertaining grad level seminar on political polling.
NCSteve
@redshirt: Yes, but online poker was banned (indeed, targeted) by the law that has this fantasy sports loophole engineered into it.
Matt McIrvin
@catclub: Yeah… I asked myself how I would answer that question. Is Obama’s agenda improving my economic opportunities? I don’t know, but I’m not sure it should. I’m doing all right already. I think Obama’s agenda does involve improving my economic security, which I care a lot more about.
redshirt
@NCSteve:
And that’s the only controversy here. And p*oker should be made legal everywhere if Fantasy is allowed.
redshirt
Ha, even quoting bad WP words gets you in moderation. Such a system!
Bitter Scribe
As far as I can tell, those fantasy gambling leagues exist to vacuum the pockets of those obnoxious know-it-all dudebros who are forever bloviating on sports talk radio. I have a hard time seeing why this is a bad thing.