Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Accused of treason; bitches about the ratings. I am in awe.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

This really is a full service blog.

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

When I decide to be condescending, you won’t have to dream up a fantasy about it.

Their freedom requires your slavery.

Accountability, motherfuckers.

Damn right I heard that as a threat.

Prediction: the GOP will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

I did not have telepathic declassification on my 2022 bingo card.

Meanwhile over at truth Social, the former president is busy confessing to crimes.

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.

The revolution will be supervised.

This fight is for everything.

Battle won, war still ongoing.

You cannot shame the shameless.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

… pundit janitors mopping up after the GOP

You are here: Home / Past Elections / Election 2016 / Debate Reax

Debate Reax

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I’ve never been Hillary Clinton’s biggest fan, though I always figured she’d be our nominee and knew I’d support her wholeheartedly if that came to pass. But damn, tonight, she just killed it, IMO. She also successfully aligned herself with President Obama, which was a smart move. 

Bernie had some good moments — when he got a question that was in his economic wheelhouse, he was passionate and articulate and convincing. I loved how he shut down the stupid email questions. He really got dinged on the gun control issue, I thought. 

O’Malley was surprisingly non-combative and seemed a bit confused on foreign policy. Webb seemed cranky about the debate format (not without reason). And Chafee appeared to have wandered onstage by accident.

What did you think? Did anything in the debate change your mind? Reassure you? Unsettle you? Make you want to throw a shoe through your TV screen?

I was sort of torn between Bernie and Hillary for the primaries, with my general election vote going to whichever Dem wins the nomination, of course. Now I’m sorta “leans Hillary.” She was that good in this debate, IMO.

Reader Interactions

390Comments

  2. 2.

    Mary G

    I slept through the whole thing except Hillary’s closing statement, which looked great – confident and upbeat. Even Jake Tapper grudgingly admitted that she did well.

    ETA-I love Bernie’s wife, she looks happy and proud of him, as well as like a real person who’d be fun to hang out with.

  3. 3.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Hillary knows her onions, her audience, and her MLB team. I like a lot of what Bernie has to say, and I hope he’ll keep saying it, but HRC brought it home tonight and I am entirely comfortable in supporting her enthusiastically.

  5. 5.

    Older

    Bernie has the better policies and a more realistic view of the challenges to achieve those policies.

  7. 7.

    JPL

    In defense of Chafee, he did correct Webb on Russia’s support of Syria. That was his only moment though.

  8. 8.

    Baud

    From the last thread, none of the top three embarrassed themselves. Chafee needs to be voted off the island.

  10. 10.

    HRA

    This was a much better debate than the R debates. I still feel it’s between Hillary and Bernie although Martin O”Malley did well on some of the questions.
    I’ll be looking forward to the next debates. I am still uncommitted.

  11. 11.

    beltane

    Somewhat OT, but I just saw that David Letterman is doing fundraisers for Tammy Duckworth’s Senate campaign. How nice it would be to take back the Senate.

  12. 12.

    Betty Cracker

    I switched over to MSNBC for the post-debate coverage. God, do I hate Andrea Mitchell. What are the CNN morans saying?

  15. 15.

    Trentrunner

    Hillary was very strong.

    Also, did everyone catch her penultimate answer?

    Question (to all candidates): What enemy are you proud of having?

    Hillary: Let’s see…Iran, the NRA [a few others]…oh and Republicans. [cheshire cat grin].

    That was fucking awesome. Having that pack of racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, idiotic, selfish, assholes as an enemy IS a fucking badge of honor.

  18. 18.

    CaseyL

    No cringe moments, which is unusual and very welcome. Webb said some weird shit, but I wasn’t supporting him anyway; not sure who his constituency is. Chaffee sounded exactly like what he is: a good-hearted Brahman who’s no longer relevant.

    HRC had poise, hit the GOP really hard on a few points – loved the crack about they love Big Govt when it comes to opposing women’s healthcare choices – and really seemed in her element. I look forward to seeing her debate whichever howling excrescence winds up with the GOP nomination. Doesn’t matter who it is, she’ll take them apart, won’t be nice about it, smiling the whole time.

  19. 19.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    Wasn’t RtR supposed to be live blogging with us on the debate thread, only saw a comment or two in the beginning, Did jeb? pull the plug on him?

  21. 21.

    Nicole

    @Betty Cracker: Honestly, the CNN post-talk seems to be mostly them praising the debate for being about issues and not name-calling. They seem pretty happy with it.

    I know, I’m surprised too.

    Of course, Wolf Blitzer’s on now, so that could change quick. He’s such an idiot.

  22. 22.

    celticdragonchick

    Hillary…Solid and brought her game. Winner.

    Bernie…uneven but probably had some of the best lines tonight. His supporters will be generally happy.

    O’Malley…not too bad. Looking for a position in Hillary’s cabinet

    Lincoln…I have seen outcrops of sandstone that were more interesting.

    Webb…what fucking party is he in?

  23. 23.

    David Koch

    She also successfully aligned herself with President Obama, which was a smart move.

    From a tactical point of view, I can’t understand why everyone isn’t doing the same. Obama has an 89% approval rating among Democrats. They’re running for the Democratic nomination. There is a basic incentive to appeal to and win a big hunk of his base. But no. It’s malpractice at best and gross stupidity at worst.

  25. 25.

    NotMax

    Open thread?

    Didn’t watch or listen. Shall read about it later on.

    However, in my happy place because (along with a couple of other items) this arrived today. Such a clever and space-saving idea. First impression is that it is very sturdy, quite easy to manipulate to small or large size, and worth the price.

  27. 27.

    Emerald

    For those who cannot take the punditry, at 9:00 (pacific time, Midnight East coast) there will be a LIVE SAFARI direct from South Africa on Nat Geo Wild.

    You also can watch it on the YouTube SafariLive live stream, and wildsafarilive.com. Great stuff, and it really is live. I watch this every night (and often in the morning–they do two three-hour drives seven days/week).

    Enjoy!

  28. 28.

    geg6

    Hilz killed it. Bernie did really well in spots. O’Malley had a few moments. Webb is exactly who I thought he was. Poor Chafee was a goober, but not a crazy person for sure.

    All of them were head and shoulders above anything we saw from the Klown Kar. And the gun debate was just great. All of it was pretty substantive, or as much as you can imagine as substantive with CNN running the show.

    I feel very good to be a Democrat tonight. And as an undecided between Bernie and Hillary (probably leaning slightly Hillary due to electability concerns), I’m pretty much convinced I’m going with Hillary now.

  29. 29.

    Mathguy

    Hillary sounded great and really nailed it (except for weed). Bernie was excellent. Really shows what a bunch of losers the GOP has in the klown kar.

  33. 33.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    They’re promoting the idea that Hillary Clinton is a scheming, flip-flopping liar. They’re making the move from “emails” to “flip-flopping”, as a narrative.

  39. 39.

    Trentrunner

    Also telling: Trump (and CNN) kept touting that he was going to livetweet the debate.

    Trump ended up tweeting maybe 6-10 times, mostly along the lines of “None of them is a star” “So boring.” Nothing about HRC.

    Even Trump recognizes how formidable Hillary is.

  41. 41.

    Arm The Homeless

    Will still walk for Sanders, but I am willing to crawl over Ebola-adulterated broken glass to support the eventual Dem nominee.

    Does that make me partisan, or lucid?

  43. 43.

    Older

    “Webb…what fucking party is he in?”

    Webb was a former Republican, so was Chafee, so was Hillary.

  46. 46.

    Elie

    I was leaning Hillary and went more that way. Proud of all the candidates but thought that Martin O’Malley did surprising well and put up a chit of consideration for VP. I was a little disappointed in Bernie. Expected him to be warmer and to at least remember we have a sitting, successful President in his intro. He was scolding his audience and waving his arms around too much, but he had good content and some good responses. He needs to keep talking and pushing a very necessary agenda for our country. He definitely made Hillary better, which if nothing else, was very important.

  54. 54.

    patroclus

    That John Cole comment was funny – I wish we could get him to blog here some time.

    As I said in the other thread, Hillz killed it. I’m still undecided but you could say I’m leaning her way. My other choice – Webb – well, I still like him, but ain’t gonna vote for him now.

  55. 55.

    Arm The Homeless

    @geg6: Good. I can’t wait to hear the cranks at work when I get back next week.

    Who knew adult discussions were something to enjoy over verbal food fights?

  58. 58.

    Xboxershorts

    None of it matters without a more progressive Congress. Get the fuck out and vote. Then do what you can to make sure others vote

  65. 65.

    geg6

    @Baud:

    I’ll believe that when we manage to get a mobile site that is readable. So don’t worry. It’ll be years before the promised bells and whistles appear. Cole always over promises. ;-)

  72. 72.

    Mandalay

    @CaseyL:

    Webb said some weird shit

    Webb has this aura of gloom and sadness about him. He may be a serious man of great integrity, and he certainly marches to the beat of a different drum compared to every other politician, but his positions are all over the place.

  73. 73.

    Older

    @BillinGlendaleCA: “Bernie started off YELLING”

    You seem more interested in style and you seem to have little interest in substance.

    I liked what Bernie said and love his passion.

  74. 74.

    Bobby Thomson

    Shorters:
    HRC: first woman president
    Sanders: workers of the US unite against the millionayuhs and billionayuhs
    O’Malley: . . . .
    Webb: have you ever heard of Vietnam?
    Chafee: oh boy oh boy I’m running for president!

  75. 75.

    JimGod

    I am so not looking forward to Rodham Clinton being the nominee. That whole “I went to Wall Street and said oh, you guysssss stop that” was just sad. There’s a real moment for changing the economic paradigm in this country and I think we’re gonna blow it by going with her. So 4 years for the federal court system being liberalized and vetoing the Republican Congress (cuz we’re not getting the House back and if we manage the Senate in 16, we loose it in 18). What a future to look forward to.

  78. 78.

    geg6

    Commentary so far has Hillary not only winning but actually being strong, smart and likeable. Not sure I’ve ever seen a pundit use that word in a positive reference to Hillary.

  79. 79.

    Elie

    @Linnaeus:

    But not all the time. Remember how we gave McCain shit about “get off my lawn!”. Unfortunately, that is how old folks — old men particularly, are trivialized. It gives people a reason to turn you off rather than be pulled to you and your message. He can do better – everyone can raise their game and improve — and it helps to get his very important message heard.

  81. 81.

    FlyingToaster

    @celticdragonchick: Linc’s too patrician to be Roxbury puddingstone.

    [Note: move to New England, start observing some of the weird-ass rocks, and ask people who know their local geology “WTF is that?”. And they’ll tell you about the Laurentide ice sheet, and why southern Indiana is hilly, and why there are almost no dinosaur bones hereabouts.]

  82. 82.

    jl

    @Trentrunner:

    Trump probably realized, finally, for reals, that the Democratic nominee will shut him down in a minute in a general election debate, and he won’t get up and running again.

  83. 83.

    SFAW

    @FlyingToaster:

    The terminal moraine is on the North Shore of LI, I believe. I think it’s the “Low Ice” mark. (Not that it’s called that, just riffing on the “High Water mark” that the Army of the Southern Traitors reached at Gettysburg. )

  84. 84.

    Older

    “remember we have a sitting, successful President”

    The millions unemployed, in poverty, and still without healthcare don’t see it that way.

  86. 86.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @JimGod:

    That whole “I went to Wall Street and said oh, you guysssss stop that” was just sad.

    Since that wasn’t the sum total of what she said about economic reform, I think your analysis is a bit off.

  87. 87.

    Jose Sacco

    Didn’t like Hillary’s tough tone on Iran. Also her remarks on Sanders’ gun record seemed disingenuous, because the big banks she defends are more dangerous to our lives than the small Vermont gun stores that Sander’s doesn’t think should be held liable for what their customers do.

  89. 89.

    Elie

    @Mandalay:

    I agree but never thought of that until you said it. He DOES have a gloom to him — a sadness. Hmmm. He has never been at home in any party or role..

  90. 90.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I think Kate McKinnon could have a lot of fun with HRC being asked about her enemies.

  91. 91.

    celticdragonchick

    @FlyingToaster:

    I did my initial geology education in California where you could drive an hour to the desert and see amazing shit everywhere.

    Now I’m in North Carolina and all these trees keep covering the geology. Meh. Finished my degree, though. :)

  92. 92.

    Older

    @JimGod: “There’s a real moment for changing the economic paradigm in this country and I think we’re gonna blow it by going with her.”

    You mean Walmart’s former Board Member and the wife of who’s right-wing policies were part of what destabilized the economy by allowing banks rob Americans might continue serving Wall Street?

    No kidding.

  93. 93.

    SFAW

    @geg6:

    Not sure I’ve ever seen a pundit use that word in a positive reference to Hillary.

    It’s hard to have “likeable” and “castrating bitch” in the same paragraph, never mind the same sentence.

  94. 94.

    Bin Lurkin

    Interesting that HRC (former Secretary of State, aspiring President) mentioned the Iranians as one of the enemies she’s most proud to have made. Not much reaction to that on the interwebs right now but if she becomes President that’s another unfortunate comment to explain away.

  95. 95.

    Elie

    @geg6:

    You are so right — she WAS likeable — not something that I thought of her… I was wary about that too — wondering if she would come off defensive and prickly…

  97. 97.

    Comrade Luke

    An old, Republican college friend said:

    The idea of any of these people on CNN tonight actually sitting in the oval office scares the living hell out of me — although slightly less than the notion that the people in the audience may actually be registered voters. Weep, weep for the republic.

    Of course, he’s leaning…

    not super-enthused at present, but I’d like a responsible person. Not a blowhard like Trump, a naif like Carson, a criminal like Clinton, or an avowed socialist like Sanders. I could live with a few of the Republicans — Rubio, Bush (slight gag reflex tho), maybe Christie, maybe even Kasich although he seems a bit of a jerk. I like Cruz’s defense of the Constitution even though he may be an even bigger jerk. I don’t see anyone on the Dem side tonight talking like a grown-up, perhaps with the exception of Jim Webb.

    It’s just so obvious: “reasonable” Republicans have no one to vote for.

  99. 99.

    FlyingToaster

    @SFAW: Technically, the terminal moraine is the entire long-island-to-provincetown semi-archipelago AKA “The Outer Lands”. Semi because Cape Cod is still — at least nominally — attached to the mainland (modulo the Canal).

  100. 100.

    Arm The Homeless

    @SFAW: We have some sexy Karst in these parts. You haven’t lived until a woman has told you how much she loves your Oolite

  101. 101.

    FlyingToaster

    @SFAW: Live in Somerville, the home of grad students. Former home of PBO when he was at Harvard Law. It’s not that hard to find geologists, geographers, paleontologists, etc.

    You could also try Allston-Brighton.

  102. 102.

    SFAW

    @divF:

    That’s viewed as a plus if you’re Joni Earnst.

    That’s only because IOKIYAR.

    If Carly Fiorina had been a competent CEO who told the truth, but running as a Democrat, she’d also get that label, along with a few other ones. But as a lying corporate hack who nearly destroyed not one, but two iconic companies, she gets a pass because IOKIYAR.

  106. 106.

    FlyingToaster

    @celticdragonchick: I think you can still see the geology in Asheville and the Outer Banks; but good luck finding any in the piedmont (well, that’s what they call it in Virginia).

  107. 107.

    geg6

    @Elie:

    See, I don’t get the not likeable thing people feel about her. I was an early Obama adopter, so I could easily feel that way about her. But I always felt that was a trumped up charge that the media turned into a “truth” that people just accepted. But I’ve never felt that she wasn’t likeable if you looked underneath the pile of shit that was constantly being dumped on her.

  108. 108.

    Chris

    @Comrade Luke:

    It’s just so obvious: “reasonable” Republicans have no one to vote for.

    Because God forbid they simply cross over.

    As Kroog pointed out in his column today, there totally is a Brooksian conservative party in America, it’s called the Democrats.

  109. 109.

    Betty Cracker

    Sweet babby Jeebus! Why is Entertainer Wayne Newton on my teebee? I thought he was dead, honest to god.

    ETA: CLICK!

  111. 111.

    SFAW

    @Comrade Luke:

    Is “naif” a new synonym for “insane, lying idiot savant”?

    I realize he’s your friend and all, but he sounds like a typical TeaBagger plus about 5 IQ points.

  116. 116.

    RK

    This talk of winning a debate is juvenile and one of the many things wrong with politics. Overall, Sanders’ policies would be best for America.

  117. 117.

    Emerald

    Gawd. I knew Chris Matthews was an idiot, but he’s doubling down on it tonight.

    Wayne Newton?? As a pundit??

  119. 119.

    Elie

    @geg6:

    Fair enough. I just seemed to see her in a defensive light — esp late in 2008 campaign and that stuck for a while. Under the bridge now…

  120. 120.

    Older

    CNN’s focus group preferred Bernie.

    It seemed to confuse the CNN host. She even felt the need to repeat that he’s a socialist. Didn’t deter the Bernie supporter she tried to press on the ‘socialist’ word.

    Apparently CNN’s host didn’t understand that those ‘regular’ people really preferred Bernie and just ended her piece by completely ignoring the focus group and calling it for Hillary.

    CNN Corporate News Now.

  122. 122.

    Linnaeus

    @Elie:

    We also gave McCain shit because there was no real coherence to anything he said, which exacerbated the “get off my lawn” image. Sanders doesn’t have that problem, IMHO, so I give him a little more latitude. I can understand the argument that perhaps he needs to change his style in certain situations, and I’d be fine with that, but I’d rather have that for a problem than someone who doesn’t speak up enough when it’s necessary.

  124. 124.

    Fair Economist

    @Arm The Homeless:

    All I could think of when Chaffee claimed, “It was my first day!”

    That was a honker of a gaffe. And Cooper really nailed him with “You mean you didn’t know what you were doing?”

  125. 125.

    SatanicPanic

    @geg6: I saw her give a speech back in the 90s and thought she had plenty of charisma. I mean, ask JEB! how easy it is to run for president with nothing more than a famous last name. Our media is full of deeply stupid people.

  126. 126.

    JimGod

    @RK: True but Americans are morons who will not change the partisan control of the House of Representatives. Who ever wins the Presidency will just appoint judges, a cabinet and veto Republican shit while trying to raise the debt ceiling for the next 4 years. We are not a real country with a real electoral or governmental system. Nothing to be done about it.

  129. 129.

    geg6

    @Baud:

    Meh, Bill doesn’t charm me like he does a lot of people, though I totally get why they are charmed. Obama is just one of those once in a lifetime people. No one will ever top him for me. But I always got a vibe from Hilz that she’d be a blast to hang around with, one of the “girls”, if you like. At least, my crowd of girls anyway. But then, I’ve been called a castrating bitch, too, so we’d have that in common.

  130. 130.

    SFAW

    @FlyingToaster:

    Yeah, that’s great, but you were talking about NE as the terminal moraine. P-Town is not New England, and terminal moraines aren’t 200-plus miles long. (“Long” used as the north-south dimension/direction)

  134. 134.

    Mandalay

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I also liked the lack of infighting!

    Me too. And even better was their collective refusal to play along with phony loaded questions such as Cooper’s disgraceful effort on “emailgate”.

    I hope that set a template for the future:
    – The moderator asks a phony question purely for sensation, and a possible sound bite.
    – The candidate tells the moderator that they are there to discuss real issues, and won’t respond to bullshit.
    – Other candidates pile on, and tell the moderator to ask real questions, or fuck off and find someone with more ability to take over the debate.

  136. 136.

    FlyingToaster

    @celticdragonchick: I think you have to go up to central New Hamsterpshire for that.

    Most of eastern Mass seems to be recessional moraines, forcing the remaining rivers to flow east to the sea (why the Merrimack turns abruptly east, when it once flowed out into Boston Harbor).

  137. 137.

    Older

    @RK:

    “”This talk of winning a debate is juvenile and one of the many things wrong with politics. Overall, Sanders’ policies would be best for America.”

    CNN’s focus group agreed. CNN’s host didn’t like that.

  138. 138.

    pseudonymous in nc

    @Elie:

    He DOES have a gloom to him — a sadness. Hmmm. He has never been at home in any party or role..

    He could have been a useful old-school senator for Virginia beyond one term, but the Senate seems to have mostly bored him along with the prospect of campaigning for re-election. I think the Senate has room for heterodox members who have lives that aren’t solely defined by politics, but perhaps that only applies in states where elections aren’t competitive.

  140. 140.

    David Koch

    So Sanders is on MSNBC and Tweety is trying to bait him, asking him isn’t Obama to blame for today’s Super Pacs and the Koch Brothers spending because he didn’t take campaign funding restrictions in 2008 and said Sanders said yes.

    Sigh.

    First of all, it is Bush who was the first to forgo campaign finance restrictions in 2000. It was later followed by Dean, Kerry, and Bush (once again) in 2004. Second the wingers would have overturned McCain-Feingold no matter what Obama did or didn’t do, it was just a matter of time.

    It’s like Sanders can’t help himself and looks for ways to blame Obama first.

  141. 141.

    JimGod

    @Omnes Omnibus: Explain to me then the path that will flip the House of Representatives. Speaker Chaffetz is not going to be anymore open to working with Clinton or Sanders than Boner was with Obama….

  144. 144.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Mandalay: Some of the best moments of the debate were when Sanders and Clinton effectively debated one another while ignoring Cooper.

  145. 145.

    Elie

    Good pix of Hillary BTW. Very fittin’ given she is a Chicagoan and all and that the Cubs won tonight…

  146. 146.

    Linnaeus

    @Elie:

    Having said that, I should add that I also think that Clinton is the most competitive Democratic candidate and I would be very surprised if she didn’t get the nomination. I wouldn’t have any problem voting for her. I’m glad Sanders is in for what he brings to the table, regardless of his actual chances.

  148. 148.

    SFAW

    @FlyingToaster:

    I’m sorry, but the Somerville “geology” is the Assembly Square Mall and the Malden River. Allston-Brighton? I don’t think the Pike tolls count as “geology.”

    I’m kidding, of course, but I don’t associate either of those locations with geology. There might be scientists/experts who live there, but to me that’s a different kettle of pet rocks.

  149. 149.

    Infamous Heel-Filcher

    @Xboxershorts: One of my biggest disappointments with the Sanders campaign is that they haven’t been running any GOTV plays in any of the 2015 elections.

    Houston has a close mayor’s race and an even closer ballot initiative to undo the new equal rights ordinance. It would cost the campaign peanuts to match donors to voter registrations and send out “here’s your polling place, now vote already” emails.

  151. 151.

    FlyingToaster

    @SFAW: Pick many nits, here?

    The Cape & Islands, Block Island, and Long Island are the terminal moraine. Most of Eastern Mass is recessional moraines, as I suspect is a lot of Connecticut. Rhode Island seems to be mostly deposit, so sedimentary, formed some time after the retreat of the glacier.

  152. 152.

    celticdragonchick

    @FlyingToaster:

    The only moraine hopping I was eve able to do was in the Eastern Sierras and those were all relatively recent Pleistocene and unconsolidated. Not really safe to fool around on. 3 major layers of lateral moraine from different waves of glaciation known as Tahoe, Teniah and Tioga.

  154. 154.

    Elie

    @David Koch:

    As I said, his approach tonight was not smart but its his choice. Its why he is not going to be the nominee though. He has to connect to the important part of Obama’s base. That is just a fact he would have to internalize. I don’t think that is where he is at and looks like that is where its going to stay. He is too old anyway.

  156. 156.

    SFAW

    @JimGod:
    It’s not unreasonable to think that the recent court-imposed redistricting in Florida might spread to other states. Not saying it’s likely, but it could come to pass.

    Not a panacea, but a good start. And maybe they’ll fire DWS, and someone competent replaces her. (As long as it’s not Matt Williams or Terry Collins.) Doing so would be the next step in a 50-state or 435-district strategy, assuming the new DNC head doesn’t think Blue Dogs are the way to go.

  157. 157.

    Goblue72

    My politics are Democratic Socialism and if we had a Labour Party in this country I’d be a member (as opposed to the Lib Dem party we are stuck with). That said, Hillary did a great job. But I’m still voting for Bernie. Issues matter and I still don’t true her and her corporate Democrat centrism.

    Bernie’s been (understandably) angry and fed up for so long he doesn’t know how to turn it off.

  158. 158.

    Mike J

    @Infamous Heel-Filcher:

    It would cost the campaign peanuts to match donors to voter registrations and send out “here’s your polling place, now vote already” emails.

    I’d guess it’s a waste of time. People who donate to campaigns are already going to vote, and we probably aren’t talking about more than a couple of thousand people, tops.

    Sander’s biggest city for donations in TX is (surprise) Austin, with $20k. 81 people in Houston[1] have donated to Sanders. Not worth the effort.

    [1] Source: fec.gov

  160. 160.

    RK

    Someone said Sanders was scolding of his audience? What? lol He’s scolding of a corrupt capitalist and political system.

  162. 162.

    SFAW

    @FlyingToaster:

    Oh, calm down. You made a blanket statement (yes, I saw the smiley), I pointed out that the terminal was a bit south of NE, and you got a little huffy about where the terminal really is, etc., etc. Seems like my original statement is still correct, based on your latest. So what’s your beef?

    Of course, you and Cervantes could split a beer and bitch about that asshole SFAW picking nits, if it’ll make you feel better.

  164. 164.

    FlyingToaster

    @SFAW: It’s the grad students :) I shared a house (over several years) with a statistician, two game designers, a med student, an accountant, and an applied biologist.

    Actually, the Somerville “hills” are where the geology discussions got started; they’re lined up in bands (and if you head west out route 2 you deal with the repeating ridge lines). Winter Hill lost about 20 feet of the top to contribute to the Back Bay fill (hello MIT and Back Bay), and Assembly Square is just sedimentary off the Mystic flow.

    Trying to figure out how to get a bike from Davis to Kendall and back without having to climb a fucking mountain in the process was an interesting study, by itself; but then learning why they ended up that way was more interesting.

    I’m still trying to find someone who will explain the Boston Basin to me, without bogus claims of volcano.

  166. 166.

    David Koch

    So Howard Fineman is desperately trying to find a way to say both lost.

    your liberal HuffPo, ladies and gentleman.

  167. 167.

    cckids

    @geg6:

    But I always got a vibe from Hilz that she’d be a blast to hang around with, one of the “girls”, if you like. At least, my crowd of girls anyway. But then, I’ve been called a castrating bitch, too, so we’d have that in common.

    Me too, on all counts :)

    I also don’t get the media/pundits griping about her laugh. I like a person who really belts out a laugh, not a simpering giggle.

  168. 168.

    FlyingToaster

    @SFAW: Totally calm; you just seem mildly teed off that I called all of New England a terminal moraine, much like Lincoln Chafee.

  170. 170.

    RK

    @Omnes Omnibus: Some perceptions are nonsensical and plain wrong. I hope you enjoyed that fortune cookie. And let’s call a spade a spade: women want a woman in office.

  171. 171.

    Older

    CNN has repeated Bernie bashing the email idiocy and Hillary bashing Bernie’s position on guns.

    CNN Corporate News Now sure seems to be trying to help Walmart’s former Board Member.

  173. 173.

    SFAW

    @FlyingToaster:

    There are grad students in the Boston area? Who knew?

    Winter Hill: actually, even though it lost 20 feet to Back Bay, Whitey & Co put enough bodies there to raise it back up.

    How far out do you have to go on Rte 2 to witness the repeating ridge lines? Alewife? Waltham? Concord? Believe it or not, I’m being serious. I live in the outer ‘burbs, sometimes take Rte 2 inbound – actually, I might be driving in for the HOCR this weekend – and would try to notice them, if I knew what I was looking at.

  175. 175.

    FlyingToaster

    @RK:

    women want a woman in office

    I personally don’t care about the plumbing; I just want a competent, sentient being in office.

    I don’t think there are any members of the KlownKar that could survive a gom jabbar.

  176. 176.

    Goblue72

    @FlyingToaster: The only rocks you’ll find in Allston are the heads of drunk undergrads passed out in front of The Kells or Kinvara or whatever they’ve been renamed.

  178. 178.

    celticdragonchick

    @FlyingToaster:

    I don’t know enough about it. I saw some stuff on late Proterozoic igneous activity and the CAMP volcanics from the late Triassic and early Jurassic in your area.

  179. 179.

    jl

    @RK: If you look at clips of Sanders from years ago, he has been pretty much the same. He is outraged, he talks loud, he scolds out reams of outrageous history and facts and statistics about how awful it is, and he yells what he is gonna doaboudit.

    So, if he is getting support of 20 or 25 percent of he Democrats over HRC, that’s what they want to hear and don’t shit how he comes off.

  180. 180.

    amk

    @RK:

    women want a woman in office.

    wow. why don’t you check up Sanders whether he endorses your ‘progressive view’.

  181. 181.

    GregB

    Sure we all saw five adults debating serious issues but Dr. Ben Carson saw five Hitlers plotting genocide.

  182. 182.

    SFAW

    @FlyingToaster:

    No, just a loyal (former) Long Islander who prefers accuracy and precision.

    Chafee? I would say something like “I’m still trying to get the measure of him,” but then I’d have to decide if I was using a yardstick or a meter stick. (Lame-Jokes-R-Us!)

  186. 186.

    TriassicSands

    I’m not a fan of Clinton’s, but she did very well tonight, I thought. I’d rather Bernie’s politics became president, but I won’t have any trouble voting for Clinton. I just wish the Democratic Party had more first rate candidates (and I don’t think Biden would improve the selection at all).

    @Fair Economist:

    Chaffee handled that very poorly, but I actually sympathized with his position. It’s probably unfair to think that anyone entering the Senate the way he did would automatically know enough to be one of only two people voting against a bill, particularly in the highly charged atmosphere of that time. In the reality of the Senate, if you play the game that way (think Ted Cruz), you aren’t going to have any influence. (One of the reasons many people praised HRC as a senator was because she played the Senate game in a way that would maximize her long-term effectiveness. She didn’t showboat, and worked hard out of the spotlight.) However, instead of “whining” about his father dying and it being his first day, he should have simply admitted that as a brand new senator he felt it would be arrogant to cast a vote against a bill that was supported by 98 other senators. Owning up to his vote as a mistake that came from inexperience ought to be permissible. But he came across as weak now, rather than inexperienced then.

  187. 187.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @RK: It is not unreasonable for a person to interpret angry tones as scolding. Or hectoring. There are also regional differences in what is considered “polite” tone of voice. To some one from the South or the Upper Midwest, Bernie’s tone could well seem harsh. HRC conveyed seething rage rather quietly when talking about the GOP and women’s control over their own bodies. She’s from the Chicago area.

    ETA:

    And let’s call a spade a spade: women want a woman in office.

    Go fornicate a walrus.

  188. 188.

    David Koch

    @RK:

    women want a woman in office

    How does that explain Bernie losing the debate that he was heavily favored to win?

  190. 190.

    JimGod

    @SFAW: The problem really isn’t gerrymandering (though it doesn’t help), its first past the post. Democrats run up huge margins in districts they win, 90% in urban areas. Those are wasted votes. Republics win a lot more marginal seats with 55% thereabouts, those are efficient votes. Everyone blames gerrymandering for 2012 but its actually the way we elect members in the first place that allows for one party to win the national popular vote and loose the chamber. Happens all the time in non-gerrymandered Canada.

  191. 191.

    FlyingToaster

    @SFAW: The big ridge line (Arlmont), then the ridge line in Lexington between the Waltham and Spring Street exits, the ridge line going uphill from 128 (running parallel to 128 at that point), I’m not sure if that’s Lincoln or Bedford. I think there’s another one in Concord, but that’s where my navigation memory gets fuzzy.

    Here in Watertown, going uphill from the Charles, there’s one between Main and Warren, another (the big one) between Warren and Belmont, and then on into Belmont there’s one south of 60/Fitchburg line, and one north, which is the Arlmont one on Route 2. That big one goes west through Waltham and meets up with the Boston Basin ridge with all the radio towers on it.

  192. 192.

    Mandalay

    @David Koch:

    DKos has a poll and they say Sanders won the debate 50-43

    They’re not the only ones:
    – Washington Post: The candidate breaking through in the Democratic debate? Bernie Sanders.
    – Chicago Tribune: Bernie Sanders’ night: Authenticity wins the Democratic debate

    I thought she did well, and “won” the debate in the sense that I expected she would win most of the polls after the debate. But on substance I thought Bernie won (though she did kick his ass on guns).

  193. 193.

    SFAW

    @RK:

    women want a woman in office.

    No, they want a manly man who will protect them from stuff, and bring them roses on Election Day, and whisper sweet nothings in their ear, and yet be in touch with their own feelings, but still be manly. That’s so the (the wimminses) can stay home and watch the kids, and watch the Soaps all day.

    Jesus H. Christ

  195. 195.

    celticdragonchick

    @FlyingToaster:

    “I will not fear Trump.
    Trump is the mind-killer.
    Trump is the little-death that brings “yooooge” obliteration.
    I will face Trump.
    I will permit Trump to pass over me and hopefully away from me.
    And when Trumo has gone past I will turn on MSNBC to see his path.
    Where the Trump has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

  197. 197.

    FlyingToaster

    @Goblue72: or all of the fieldstone retaining walls. Granted, there are too many undergrads on the loose in Allston Brighton, but the further away you get from the B line, the more grad students you see.

  198. 198.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Fair Economist: Meh. He said it was a 90 to mumble vote for a conference report. It would be extraordinary for someone just starting on the job to vote against something like that.

    O’Malley’s “gaffe” was bigger, saying Assad made a mistake by invading Syria. He obviously meant Putin, and he certainly knows the difference, but he shouldn’t have missed that.

    I also agree with someone above who said that Hillary’s comment to the banksters in 2007 about them behaving better was cringe inducing. What were we supposed to take away from that? That maybe telling them to behave isn’t sufficient?

    Webb shouldn’t have been there.

    Chafee did better than I expected, but I can’t see him getting any traction. He doesn’t offer a compelling case why he should be the nominee.

    Bernie made some good points, but I don’t think his support is going to grow from here unless he gets a big bump in NH. He didn’t answer Cooper’s question about taking his honeymoon in the Soviet Union and all the other things. And saying he can only succeed if voter turnout leads the world sets him up for an impossible standard and guaranteed failure.

    It was ridiculous for CNN to have 20+ minutes of commercials and teasers before the first question, and the format was unfair to Webb and Chafee (but they probably shouldn’t have been there anyway), but the debate was better than I thought.

    Here’s hoping it encourages the rest of the press to spend more time on the issues going forward…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  199. 199.

    RK

    @David Koch: Why would you think Hilary won? Outside of the gun issue, Sanders and O’Malley were better on Wall Street, economic inequality, foreign policy and flip-flops. The rest of the debate was pretty much a push I thought.

  200. 200.

    David Koch

    Lot of pundits on MSNBC trying to take the win away from Hillary “steady night for Clinton”, “Sanders remains the favorite”

    Favorite? outside of neighboring New Hampshire, Hillary leads every state.

  201. 201.

    Elie

    @Mandalay:

    No way Bernie won it on substance for me, but that is me. Hillary was top down the best and I want to see the details on those polls before I accept anything like what you say.

  204. 204.

    jl

    I was pleasantly surprised by HRC, think she did very well and could crush any GOPer in a series of debates. Sanders could too. So, that is all I needed to see and was satisfied.

    And some areas were not covered tonight where both HRC’s and Sanders’ forcefulness, command of facts and ability to get to the point very quickly would work even better against GOP, like GOP fraudulent Planned Parenthood ‘scandal’ and fiscal and economic policy, taxes and deficit.

    I don’t know how any sentient being could watch the GOP debate clown show, and this debate and even consider voting for a GOPer.

  206. 206.

    RK

    @SFAW: So you’re saying Clinton women aren’t biased because of her gender. That’s funny because Clinton made a point of her gender several times tonight or should I say Female Obama did.

  209. 209.

    SFAW

    @JimGod:

    Outstanding. “It’s not gerrymandering,” then you proceed to describe the EXACT RESULT PLANNED BY THE GERRYMANDERERS. To wit: they load up Dem voters into a few districts, and make the rest safe-but-not-extremely-lopsided R districts – R +10, more or less.

    This has been pointed out more than a few times in the various parts of the Left Blogosphere, including here.

    Thanks for your valuable insights. I’ll be sure to give them appropriate consideration.

  211. 211.

    David Koch

    @RK: first all I didn’t see the debate, and I’m a long time critic of Clinton. But I’m a supporter of reality and reading comments on this board from people I trust and respect (like Baud) and from long time contributors who have no axe to grind and from others who I know dislike Clinton, the overwhelming number say she won. The market has spoken.

  213. 213.

    BR

    I don’t chime in often, but my reaction was mixed — 1) I’m so glad to have one of these three (Clinton, Sanders, O’Malley) to pick from vs. the crazy GOP — all of them would be a fine nominee, but 2) none of them is Obama, though Obama is a sort of once in a generation candidate.

    I’ve never been a big fan of Hillary Clinton, but I saw in her tonight a fight that Kerry and Gore never really had. I felt in 2004 especially that Kerry just didn’t have it in him to fight until the end — it was like he’d go back to giving droning speeches at a think tank or something if the whole president thing didn’t work out. Clinton has the fight that is needed to win. Sanders does too, but in a very different way.

  214. 214.

    celticdragonchick

    @Arm The Homeless:
    A whack behind the kneecaps from that 2 by 4 she said she was gonna use on us back when she was still “Jane Galt” and then I can escape while she is covered in artisanal kitchen gadgets. Buh bye!

  217. 217.

    oldster

    I’m very happy that Hillary and Bernie both did well. I’ll happily pull the lever for either, but I think Hillary has a far better chance of beating the Republican.

    And can I say that I was especially delighted to hear her targeting the Republicans, as a party, tonight? It’s about time our nominee says, loud and clear, the Republicans are the problem.

    All my life the Thugs have vilified Democrats and done everything to make “Democrat” sound like a dirty word. I have lived so damned long with Democrats afraid to punch back. Obama has been a wonderful change, though even he is so damned reasonable. I want a partisan who can hit back. Bernie and Hillary can both do it, and Hillary did it tonight.

  218. 218.

    Suzanne

    Overall, the winner is US. Because we didn’t have to watch another meaningless navel-gazing shitshow, and because any of these people would be 82535172636378184735241638384624 better than any of the clowns on the other side.

    SHIT, I’d donate and canvass and vote for Deez Nutz before I’d do so for any of the Rethugs.

  219. 219.

    Goblue72

    @FlyingToaster: I am unfamiliar with this thing called “beyond walking distance from a T stop”.

    And maybe things have changed, but Brighton Center and Oak Square were mostly Irish (and some Italian) townies when I lived there.

  220. 220.

    SFAW

    @RK:

    Make up your mind: is it “women”? Or is it now “Clinton women”?

    No, don’t bother to answer. You were pretty clear in your first “women want a woman in office” idiocy. Thanks for sharing.

  221. 221.

    David Koch

    @Mandalay: WaPo’s “The Fix” is a notorious Hillary-Hate site. The editor of “The Fix” once called Hillary a “bitch”. The Trib editorial page is republican. In their 170 year history they have only endorsed one Democrat (home town candidate Barack Obama).

  222. 222.

    JimGod

    @SFAW: If I draw a perfectly square district in a major city, I’m going to get 70% or more votes for the Democrat; the same box in the burbs can go 51% Republican, in the sticks 58% outside of the South and Mormon West. It’s not just by design but geography and demographics.

  223. 223.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @RK: Oh shit, a politician in a political setting made political moves. Hie thee hence with my pearls and fainting couch.

  224. 224.

    RK

    @Omnes Omnibus: Most probably did.

    @David Koch:

    first all I didn’t see the debate

    lol

    @Elie: Why deny what the candidate herself makes clear. I have no problem if women want to vote for a woman for the sake of women but don’t lie about it.

  225. 225.

    Mandalay

    @I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:

    O’Malley’s “gaffe” was bigger, saying Assad made a mistake by invading Syria.

    If he had said Obama made a mistake by invading Syria it would qualify as a gaffe, but since what he said was meaningless it was just an example of misspeaking.

    Not good a good thing to have done under pressure, but I don’t see how it reached the “gaffe” level.

  226. 226.

    SFAW

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Did AA voters choose Obama because he was black?

    Well, obviously, because:
    A) Ben Carson wasn’t yet available (although Alan Keyes was)
    B) Only about 20 percent of blacks voted for John Kerry and Al Gore.

  228. 228.

    Mike J

    Correction: above I said 81 people in Houston had donated to Sanders. After removing dupes for multiple contributions, it’s 38 people. I regret the error.

  231. 231.

    cmorenc

    I’m a lot less worried about Hillary’s ability to articulately face down and beat whichever Republican nominee emerges as the nominee than I was before tonight. I’m also even more impressed with Bernie Sanders than I was before – his chances in the general election if he somehow wrests the nomination from Hillary are also better than I thought before, but IMHO he would still have a significantly more uphill fight than Hillary would because it’s easier for them to throw propagandistic fear-mongering poo against someone who is a self-described socialist from Vermont, never mind that what he means by socialist isn’t anything like the bogeyman they’ll paint him as.

    We have five SANE, intelligent nominees, although wrt Lincoln Chafee, though he’s a good man he clearly revealed he’s out of his depth in this race. The GOP field is nothing but delusional clowns, sociopathic assholes, and corrupt agents of big corporate America and the one percenters. It’s sad that Jeb! and Kasich are the only two arguably sane ones among them, and they’re both firmly rom the third camp, with a veneer of outreach to the social conservatives.

  237. 237.

    Elie

    @RK:

    Who lied about it? Why is the term “lie” even involved?

    Women vote for a given candidate for a variety of reasons. We are individuals. I am sure some women may vote for Hillary because she is a woman. For the majority of women, I would venture, that is not the driving reason but it is sure nice if someone you think is qualified and would be good in the office, also happens to be a woman. It is most important however, to have a great candidate who we can support. I would never vote for Carly Fiorina is she was the last candidate on earth.

    Your conclusions and attitude are weird.

  241. 241.

    FlyingToaster

    @Goblue72: They sold out. As did much of Somerville.

    Gentrification came in when the state outlawed rent control (1995). So the area around the B line is mostly owned by “management companies”, whereas Oak Square or Brighton Center or everything around Harvard is either owner-occupied multis (like Somerville east of Broadway and north of McGrath, plus 10 Hills), or big apartment complexes (“Brighton Landing”, replacing the old Caldor off Western Ave).

    I’m living in the midst of the “apartment and condo construction” zone (Pleasant Street Corridor) in Watertown; right now, if you’re looking for an affordable home, your choices are Chelsea or somewhere out near 495 (Wrentham, Bolton, etc.)

  242. 242.

    SFAW

    @FlyingToaster:

    Thanks! I appreciate it.

    And, FYI, I cut-and-pasted your reply into a Word doc, so that I can sit down with a map at some point, go over that stuff. (Easier than trying to find it in here, N weeks down the road.)

  243. 243.

    Gopher2b

    Was going to with Beenie to send a message. His record on guns was a surprise to me. Will go with HRC to send a different message.

    I believe her on guns.
    I believe him on Wall Street.

    The NRA has nothing on the fat cats.

  244. 244.

    Goblue72

    @SFAW: Ha!

    Don’t get me wrong – I took the bus when needed – ain’t getting to Harvard Square quick without getting in the 66. But yeah, most of my universe my 12 years in Boston were defined by T stops. Or occasionally wherever the Purple line could get me on weekends (I’m looking at you Singing Beach)

    Outside 128 is still the frontier in my memory.

  246. 246.

    kabiddle

    @Betty Cracker:

    I know! Wayne Newton! He likes all the crazies. Had to remind myself this debate was in Vegas. And Chris Matthews now has a thrill up his leg for Hillary.

    Hillary Clinton did a great job during the debate — polished, stylish, forceful, presidential. She’s got an impressive resume, has tons of experience — was a First Lady, Secretary of State, is plugged into global initiatives for women and children as well as the international community, has a law degree, and as of now, has done very little for the health, welfare and happiness of girls and women and people in general in her own country. So now she is going to start?

  247. 247.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Elie: A couple of vocal Sanders supporters are seem upset that the consensus is that HRC won the debate. I personally that Sanders came off well over and made very good points. Events like tonight keep leading toward the conclusion that HRC is probably the Dem most likely to be able to defeat both the MSM and the GOP in 2016. Her policy positions are good enough for me. My main concern is that a Democrat takes office in 2017.

  249. 249.

    SFAW

    @Goblue72:

    Outside 128 is still the frontier in my memory.

    Most places between 128 and 495 have running water and indoor plumbing.

    Beyond 495 – out where I live – a few towns have running water, but indoor plumbing is rare. And, we have to fight off the Comanch’ raiding parties from time to time. Although I noticed that some of them speak Yiddish, so it might turn out to be OK, since I could probably get by with it.

  250. 250.

    RK

    @Elie: I think it’s obvious that a great many Democratic women identify with Clinton’s feminism and would like to see her be a female pioneer. Why anyone would deny this, to me, demonstrates the bias that accompanies her support.

  251. 251.

    FlyingToaster

    @SFAW: Feel free. I’ve driven along the top of some of them, where roads are available; if the Globe Corner were still extant, I’m pretty sure they’d have appropriate topographical maps. Sigh.

  252. 252.

    Goblue72

    @FlyingToaster: I lived there when rent control end. Moved away in 2004. So those bars changing musta been in last 10 years. Though Google says the Silhouette Lounge and Model Cafe are still around – so I guess a couple dive bars still stand.

    But yeah, a lot changed in the mid-90s. Cambridge blue collar folks really got shafted.

  253. 253.

    AxelFoley

    @David Koch:

    From a tactical point of view, I can’t understand why everyone isn’t doing the same. Obama has an 89% approval rating among Democrats. They’re running for the Democratic nomination. There is a basic incentive to appeal to and win a big hunk of his base. But no. It’s malpractice at best and gross stupidity at worst.

    Exactly.

  254. 254.

    David Koch

    Clinton Turns Up Heat on Sanders in a Sharp Debate

    By MICHAEL BARBARO and AMY CHOZICK 11:00 PM ET

    Hillary Clinton, seeking to stem the momentum of Senator Bernie Sanders, aggressively questioned his values and voting history.

    Even the corrupt Hillary-hating NYT can’t disguise the outcome.

  255. 255.

    Goblue72

    @SFAW: There’s a fort out there I’ve heard. Some place called Tanglewood. Though I hear that the Yanquis tribe tries to invade every summer.

  256. 256.

    Elie

    @RK:

    Of course that is true. You made it sound more fundamental — that there preference for a woman candidate overwhelms other considerations — which is not true. Yes, it would be wonderful to support a woman as first President. But ONLY if she merits that support independent of being a woman —

    Is that clear now?

  257. 257.

    Cacti

    @David Koch:

    DKos has a poll and they say Sanders won the debate 50-43

    So much for being a reality based community.

    I’m guessing over at DU, it’s probably about 90-10 Sanders.

    ETA: I was a little off. So far it’s 85-15 for Bernie

  259. 259.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @kabiddle: Does working for the Children’s Defense fund count? Does publishing scholarly articles on children’s rights and doing pro bono child advocacy count? What about being on the Board of Directors fo the Legal Services Corporation (appointed by Pres. Carter)? I am just up to 1977….

  260. 260.

    David Koch

    From NYT comments:

    MIMA heartsny 1 hour ago

    The conduct of the five people in this Democratic debate make me proud to call myself a Democrat tonight. Thank you candidates for your civility, intelligence, class, and respect for your country and its people.

    They have had disagreements to a point with dignity and it was notable. They also agreed with integrity. Bernie Sanders even went a step higher in putting an end to the email issue. Taking the high road could be presidential, couldn’t it? And Hillary Clinton shaking his hand immediately, could be presidential, couldn’t it?

    We were given forthright information and opinions.

    So different than the Republican debates and their demeanor.
    This was a debate of the people and for the people – for all people of the United States, a Democratic value.

    Reply 338Recommend

    Pat Maplewood, NJ 1 hour ago

    What a relief that we actually have adults running for President.

    Reply 308Recommend

    Ryan Clapp Boston, MA 1 hour ago

    Were we watching the same debate? One of the big differences between this and the Republican debate is how the candidates did NOT take Anderson Cooper’s bait to directly attack each other. That said, even as a Bernie Sanders supporter I’ll say Hillary had a great night. This medium serves her well

    Reply 184Recommend

  263. 263.

    FlyingToaster

    @RK: Not exactly.

    I was a Clinton agnostic 6 months ago; when polled in June, I identfied Sanders as my most likely choice.

    But I watched their reactions to various things over the summer; Sanders is a too much of a one-note-johnny (Economic!Inequality!) candidate; O’Malley lacks both name recognition and a DC rolodex; Chaffee is just excited to be here, and Jim Webb is an “Appalachian Scots-Irish first, the rest of y’all can suffer.” Best all-round candidate turns out to be Clinton.

    You should try comprehension, rather than repeating your assertion louder each time you’re contradicted by actual people.

  265. 265.

    SFAW

    @Goblue72:

    Tanglewood? Now you’re talking crazy talk – that’s way out in Novosibirkshirskiy, a/k/a People’s Republic West. I would NEVER go out there, unless I was armed with a case of white wine and a year’s supply of Birks. I get the shivers just thinking about it.

    Oh, wait – I WAS out there, two months ago. (Beethoven’s Ninth, Sunday matinee) The Cavalry must have been through there before I got there, because things were OK.

  269. 269.

    FlyingToaster

    @Goblue72: And Cambridgeport and Area 4 landlords — who were going broke from having tenants paying monthly rent less than their share of the MWRA-raised water bill — got a break.

    There was no winning that situation. The rent control law as constituted shafted single multi-family homeowners; as repealed, shafted working class tenants.

  270. 270.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @RK: Conceding the field and leaving with a gratuitous insult. Bernie would be proud of you (that was sarcasm, you twit).

  272. 272.

    Sly

    Performance Rankings:

    Clinton > Sanders >>> O’Malley >>>>>>> Joe Biden’s Vacant Off-Stage Podium >>>>>>>> Webb > Chaffee >>>> The VC that Webb garroted with dental floss in the jungle north of Saigon >>>>> CNN.

  275. 275.

    Goblue72

    @FlyingToaster: True – Cambridge’s RC system wasn’t working. Boston and Brookline’s vacancy decontrol was another – much more balanced.

    And most of those Cambridge “mom and pops” eound up evicting their tenants, put in fancy countertops and re-rented to yuppies.

  276. 276.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Patton Oswald has a brother

    Matt Oswald ‏@ puddinstrip 4h4 hours ago
    my favorite thing about Bernie Sanders is he sounds exactly like Larry David doing a George Steinbrenner impression #DemDebate

  277. 277.

    FlyingToaster

    @SFAW: RK has the robust intelligence and sparkling wit of a cinder block.

    If he has the aerodynamics of said cinder block, we could have some fun :)

  279. 279.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @SFAW: Not necessarily. Bernie seems to have inspired a few people who could be as obnoxious as the PUMAs were in 2008. In neither case would I suggest that they were doing their thing with the approval of the candidate.

  280. 280.

    Goblue72

    @SFAW: The folks at Jacobs Pillow were probably a flanking action to distract the Yanquis.

    But yes, generally should be well armed with some Chardonnay and Brie.

  281. 281.

    SFAW

    @Mike J:

    You got it backwards re: Betty and RtR. If anything, Reich to Rise would be the sockpuppet, not Betty. Of course, it’s really DougJ 9or Doug!), not Betty.

  282. 282.

    amk

    Even with such a small pool of candies, dems have better voting choices than the kkklowns, who go from deranged to deranged plus.

  285. 285.

    FlyingToaster

    @Goblue72: Or sold out altogether and there’s an apartment building or MIT research lab there now.

    I don’t hold out much hope for the multifamily houses south of Kirkland street; I think you’ll see a lot more of what happened in Lechmere (up! up! up!) or at University Park.

    And there are single family houses in Somerville going for a mil. Jeebus. We were priced out of there in 2002 (and hence ended up in Watertown). You can take the 71 to Harvard, the 70 to MIT, the 57 to BU, or the 59 to Dedham Mall. Doesn’t really compare to the “hop the red line” outta Davis.

  286. 286.

    Cacti

    Okay, I gotta say that it was a little weird that Bernie suggested Clinton and O’Malley were “shouting” about gun control issues.

    Guns must be about the only issue that Bernie doesn’t shout about.

  287. 287.

    SFAW

    @Goblue72:

    Chardonnay. Oy. I get the shakes just thinking about it.

    Now if you said a nice Cab (or even a not-so-nice Cab), I could handle that. About the only white I can handle (from a taste standpoint) is Beefeater or Tanqueray.

  288. 288.

    Omnes Omnibus

    Okay. Some of you folks live in the Boston area. You have established that. Thank you.

  289. 289.

    RK

    @amk: Saying what’s self-evident only makes me clear-eyed. That you apparently think what Sanders supporters have to say can affect the race to any measurable degree, that’d be clueless.

  296. 296.

    Suzanne

    I still don’t know if I’m Ready for Hillary or if I’m gonna Feel the Bern, but both of them are great, and thank FSM we have two good options.

  297. 297.

    SFAW

    @RK:

    Saying what’s self-evident only makes me clear-eyed.

    And proclaiming that your prejudices are “self evident” only shows how clueless you are. Or a Rethug. But “clear-eyed”? Not in this plane of reality, sorry.

  300. 300.

    trollhattan

    Heard it from approx the midpoint on the car radio. Hillary and Bernie seemed quite composed and able to say things that supported what I know of their positions. O’Malley seemed to do well when he had the opportunity and the two kitchen appliances whirred to life on cue, chopping and pureeing something or other.

    Overall impression is Sanders kills on a fairly narrow suite of issues–he speaks with passion and intimate knowledge of every conceivable angle–but fades when away from those. Clinton is able to discuss pretty much anything with the depth of actually knowing the topic. She was tagged with “policy wonk” back in ’92 and with good reason, tonight it showed. What she has now that was lacking in 2008 was being at ease. No pings to a virtual external drive before answering–she was right there in real time. Sometimes just having audio is an advantage in hearing what is said with fewer distractions.

    Some of the questions were really weirdly constructed. “But this time Superman is chained to Pikes Peak and Batman has kryptonite lawn darts, NOW who wins?”

  301. 301.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @SFAW: Keep your greasy paws off of our cheeseheads. Parochial discussions bore people who aren’t from that parish.

  303. 303.

    SFAW

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Parochial discussions bore people who are jealous that they aren’t from that parish.

    Fixed.

    “Greasy paws”? I’m hurt. Of course, if I were in Canada-South (a/k/a Green Bay), the grease would have frozen by now.

  309. 309.

    RK

    @SFAW: What prejudices? The candidate herself makes no bones about pandering to the feminist vote and did so at least twice tonight. I actually find it refreshing that Clinton is so open about it and have no problem that many women are so inclined. But don’t say it doesn’t exist or color one’s perspective.

  310. 310.

    Betty Cracker

    Me R2R? That pathetic, one-note SuperPAC script-bot? If I ever decide to troll y’all, you’ll stay good and goddamned trolled. It won’t be weak-sauce shit like R2R serves up.

  312. 312.

    Cacti

    @RK:

    What prejudices? The candidate herself makes no bones about pandering to the feminist vote and did so at least twice tonight. I actually find it refreshing that Clinton is so open about it and have no problem that many women are so inclined. But don’t say it doesn’t exist or color one’s perspective.

    Exhibit A for Sandernistas being the left’s version of Trump troglodytes.

  318. 318.

    Radio One

    I love that Martin O’Malley’s front page includes accolades such as:
    Life long Democrat
    15 years of executive experience
    Irish Rockband Frontman

    Find Out More…

    I’m pretty much with the conventional wisdom with both Hillary and Sanders, but thought O’Malley did better than expected and should get a bump in the polls.

  321. 321.

    Cacti

    @RK:

    If that’s exhibit A you may be in the wrong courtroom.

    I feels ya broseph.

    Clinton panders to feminists because the bitches be all crazy like that.

  323. 323.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @RK: I would put my next month’s salary on Cacti being a better lawyer than you are. You should understand that I disagree with Cacti on a lot of things.

  324. 324.

    Goblue72

    @Omnes Omnibus: Law school alma mater. Has been my online nym from when I was in law school hanging in Red Sox game threads on Sons of Sam Horn. Just kept it cuz I’m lazy.

  325. 325.

    amk

    @RK:

    If you get bored of bernie, and at some point you will when you realize he is a sane & sensible candidate, you will feel right at home at donald dreck’s campaign office. Your kind are quite welcome there. Consider it a free tip.

  326. 326.

    FlyingToaster

    @efgoldman:

    huge boulders in my back yard.

    We’ve got those too. But ours don’t calve into anything interesting, alas.

    My biggest worry right now is trees uprooting and falling over. In my yard, they’re deliberately too small; but some of the neighbors have big, lean-y trees. Which are going to fall down on their houses, and cars, and take out the power lines..

  327. 327.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Goblue72: If you want to go back through my history on the internet, the only team that has mattered to me is the Packers. So, for me, 13 vs 4 is it. Refuting it with cricket scores or whatever – well, have fun.

  331. 331.

    mclaren

    Hillary was great and Bernie was dynamite. I thought Bernie totally nailed it. His “Enough with the damn e-mails!” was the line of the night.

    Chaffee came off surprisingly well, especially on Snowden. O’Malley came off like a weasel, and Webb looked like a Republican lite, which we do not need any more of this decade.

  333. 333.

    mclaren

    @RK:

    And let’s call a spade a spade: women want a woman in office.

    Lots of men want a woman president too. A woman as president is long past due. I’m not Hillary’s biggest fan, but I will happily vote for her if Sanders isn’t the Democratic nominee, and that’s one of the reasons.

  334. 334.

    RK

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    The candidate herself makes no bones about pandering to the feminist vote and did so at least twice tonight. I actually find it refreshing that Clinton is so open about it and have no problem that many women are so inclined. But don’t say it doesn’t exist or color one’s perspective.

    Here: @RK:

  335. 335.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @BillinGlendaleCA: I am from Wisconsin. We have hills (even if a couple get called mountains for marketing purposes – my hometown having surprisingly decent skiing).

  338. 338.

    mclaren

    @Older:

    Bernie has the better policies and a more realistic view of the challenges to achieve those policies.

    Agreed about the policies, but I’m not sure Bernie’s mode of achieving those policies is entirely realistic. “We need many people to come together, we need a political revolution.” Yeah, can we get a little more vague?

    Until Democrats retake the House, as a practical matter we need an activist progressive president who uses executive orders and sequestering of funds and executive signing statements to put through important policy changes.

    Example: the next Democratic president should damn well order the FCC to reinstate the Fairness Doctrine. Shut Fox News down. Shut Rush Limbaugh down. If those programs want to be on the air, they need to provide equal time for progressive commentators and talk radio hosts in the same program.

    Example: the next Democratic president needs to order his DOJ to unleash the hounds of antitrust hell on the cable company monopolies, the textbook monopolies, the AMA, the medical device makers, hospitals and doctors and imaging labs that sign collusive anti-compete agreements and pricing non-disclosure agreements.

    Example: the next Democratic president needs to shut down Gitmo and if necessary sequester funds from military ops in Afghanistan to do it.

    Example: the next Democratic president needs to send the DOJ after everyone in Washington who was responsible for torture during and after the Iraq War.

    Example: the next Democratic president needs to shut down all warrantless wiretapping by executive order.

  339. 339.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Goblue72: Well, we could advocate having other people shoot cops in the street. Especially when we aren’t at risk at all. But then you have done that, so it would be unfashionable for me to do so.

  340. 340.

    amk

    @RK:

    Nope, this was your original thought when you were pissed off that sanders didn’t win today.

    And let’s call a spade a spade: women want a woman in office.

    The one you cite was your weaselly way out when you were called out.

  341. 341.

    mclaren

    But I watched their reactions to various things over the summer; Sanders is a too much of a one-note-johnny (Economic!Inequality!) candidate; O’Malley lacks both name recognition and a DC rolodex; Chaffee is just excited to be here, and Jim Webb is an “Appalachian Scots-Irish first, the rest of y’all can suffer.” Best all-round candidate turns out to be Clinton.

    Hillary was polished, tough, empathetic, smart, presidential and overall wonderfully comfortable with herself. She definitely wins hands down in the “most improved performance for a Democratic candidate.”

    Bernie might come off as a Johnny-One-Note, but that one note is awfully important. Unless we reduce inequality, we won’t have a democracy in the U.S. We’ll turn into Brazil.

  342. 342.

    JustRuss

    @kabiddle:

    I know! Wayne Newton! He likes all the crazies. Had to remind myself this debate was in Vegas.

    The Vegas connection makes sense, if you’re slightly insane, I guess. I have a friend who used to fly out of Vegas, he piloted for Newton a few times. He’s an…..interesting dude.

  344. 344.

    mclaren

    @trollhattan:

    Overall impression is Sanders kills on a fairly narrow suite of issues–he speaks with passion and intimate knowledge of every conceivable angle–but fades when away from those. Clinton is able to discuss pretty much anything with the depth of actually knowing the topic. She was tagged with “policy wonk” back in ’92 and with good reason, tonight it showed. What she has now that was lacking in 2008 was being at ease. No pings to a virtual external drive before answering–she was right there in real time. Sometimes just having audio is an advantage in hearing what is said with fewer distractions.

    Agreed. I didn’t like a lot of Hillary’s policy answers, but she definitely knew her stuff. Her response about the need to rein in the shadow banking sector was especially insightful.

    I do think Hillary blew it when she tried to defend not breaking up the Too Big to Fail Banks. That’s just a mistake, and I think she knew it.

    Bernie came off as not tremendously knowledgeable about foreign policy. No surprise, since he was debating a former Secretary of State. The upside? Foreign policy is not a significant issue in this election, since America has no serious enemies today. In this election, “it’s the economy, stupid!”

    Did not like Bernie or Hillary’s answers on whistleblowers and on Snowden. The entire room of Democrats erupted in derisive hoots of laughter when Hillary tried to explain that Snowden should have used the proper channels. Sorry, Hills, he did use the proper channels and his superiors ignored him.

    I really like the way all the Democrats boasted about being hated by the NRA. Except Webb, that Rambo-lite toad.

  345. 345.

    RK

    @amk:

    That was a curt response to what I thought were biased appraisals draped in neutrality but the two are the same.

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    “Pandering” may be an inaccurate or overly negative way of putting things but it’s the same point.

  346. 346.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @mclaren: Is economic equality more important than social equality? If minorities consistently have fewer opportunities, does it matter that when they have them they are judged equally?

  347. 347.

    mclaren

    @kabiddle:

    Hillary Clinton did a great job during the debate — polished, stylish, forceful, presidential. She’s got an impressive resume, has tons of experience — was a First Lady, Secretary of State, is plugged into global initiatives for women and children as well as the international community, has a law degree, and as of now, has done very little for the health, welfare and happiness of girls and women and people in general in her own country. So now she is going to start?

    Sadly true.

    To be fair, how much of an opportunity has HRC had to do much for the average person? She was First Lady, a ceremonial position at best. Then she was a senator from New York where she represented (surprise!) Wall Street and the biggest corporations in America, because they’re all headquartered in New York. Then she was secretary of state, where she was not tasked with helping improve the condition of the average American.

    So it’s a little bit unfair to slam Hillary for that.

  349. 349.

    Thoughtful Today

    It will be interesting to see if what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, polling-wise.

  351. 351.

    mclaren

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Is economic equality more important than social equality? If minorities consistently have fewer opportunities, does it matter that when they have them they are judged equally?

    Excellent question. I think Bernie Sanders’ point is that you get to social equality via economic equality. It’s all very well to talk about nebulous things like “eliiminating prejudice,” but really, how do you get from here to there?

    One of the best ways to get from here to there is to create enough high-paying jobs for poor black people that the public no longer associates blacks with “gangs, drugs, inner city tenements” but instead starts to associate blacks with “that guy who works at my office and lives in the suburb near me and whose kids play soccer with my kids.”

    Even more subtly, I think Sanders has also been hitting on the issue that when the wealth divide gets large enough, the average Ameican becomes ripe for the kind of demagoguery at which Republicans excel. “Those awful blacks/Latinos/Asians/Jews are taking your jobs! They’re different, smelly, subhuman, we must keep them in their place!”

    This kind of raw appeal to group hate works best if the people at which it’s directed realize they are badly losing ground and their middle-class status is slipping away. As one commenter here memorably remarked, you can convince a middle class guy to be satisfied with sitting in a cardboard box under an overpass roasting sparrows on a curtain rod as long as you can show him that the other people sitting next to him don’t even have a curtain rod to roast their sparrows on.

    When economic inequality diminishes, that kind of beggar-your-neighbor demagoguery loses a lot of its appeal.

  352. 352.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @JimGod:
    I understand what you are saying, but in practice lawmakers have to draw Escherian nightmares to get the imbalances they want. There will be imbalances in a non-gerrymandered districting setup, but they will be much less.

  354. 354.

    RK

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’d say most men are to some degree or another (protestations to the contrary) but being the candidate has shown again and again that she shares my view I’d say it’s irrelevant even if I were a raging one.

  355. 355.

    mclaren

    @celticdragonchick:

    I will not fear Trump.
    Trump is the mind-killer.
    Trump is the little-death that brings “yooooge” obliteration.

    LOL! You have just won the internets for tonight.

  356. 356.

    Thoughtful Today

    Social equality and economic equality are inextricable from each other (think: Overlapping Venn diagram).

    We’ve got a black President, so FOX fools claim we’ve got social equality, some Dem voices apparently think the same.

    But we’ve also got horrific unemployment levels and poverty rates for African Americans that grossly exceed those of Caucasians.

    Those unemployed and in poverty often see the sneering attitude of those demeaning economic equality as … really reprehensible.

    The Larry Willmore show the other night on the subject was quite thoughtful. I even paused the show to screen shot the graphic that showed how little those rates have changed over the last 20 years, 1995-2015. That time period covers three Democratic administrations, btw.

  357. 357.

    RK

    @amk: As I just said and will for the last time, the candidate herself agrees with my view and campaigns so openly.

  360. 360.

    Thoughtful Today

    @Older:

    ““remember we have a sitting, successful President””

    “The millions unemployed, in poverty, and still without healthcare don’t see it that way. “

    Yup.

  361. 361.

    Thoughtful Today

    @Older:

    “… Walmart’s former Board Member and the wife of who’s right-wing policies were part of what destabilized the economy by allowing banks rob Americans might continue serving Wall Street”.

    This is one of the myriad issues where Hillary and Bill Clinton just break my heart.

    Hillary’s Walmart Board Membership is rarely spoken of, the right-wing don’t want her corporate credentials mentioned because it’s actually a plus to their leaders and owners.

    Hillary supporters don’t want her Walmart Board Membership mentioned at all, especially as Walmart’s anti-union outsourcing, under Hillary’s Board Membership is part of what’s led to billionaires screwing America.

    Bill Clinton’s deregulation of the banks was a huge part of what led to the ‘cratering’ of the economy and Hillary Clinton unwillingness to reregulate is … aaaaaaargghhh /facepalm.

  362. 362.

    Carolinus

    @mclaren:

    Sorry, Hills, he did use the proper channels and his superiors ignored him.

    His claims of grousing to coworkers and the bland training material process question e-mails he sent aren’t proper channels. Applying for an intelligence job with the sole intent of spending months copying every classified file you can get your hands on and fleeing the country with it is certainly not proper channels. He’s never actually claimed to have attempted to follow proper procedures for reporting urgent concerns pursuant to the ICWPA (reporting a complaint to the IC inspector general or to congress).

  364. 364.

    Carolinus

    @Thoughtful Today:

    Sure, he had no protections that allowed leaking to the South China Morning Post, Greenwald, Poitras, Appelbaum and Gellman. He could have availed himself of reporting urgent concerns under the ICWPA any time prior to that though.

    http://www.dni.gov/index.php/about-this-site/no-fear-act/whistleblower-protection-laws

    The Inspector General Act of 1978, as amended by the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act of 1998 provides employees and contractors of intelligence agencies with a mechanism for reporting alleged wrongdoing in IC agencies and associated programs to Congress. Under the ICWPA, IC employees have the right to engage in whistleblowing activity relating to intelligence matters of “urgent concern” and to be free from retaliatory actions for such reporting. “Urgent concerns,” as defined by the ICWPA, include matters an IC employee reasonably believes to evidence violations of law, rule or regulation; gross mismanagement; gross waste of funds; an abuse of authority; or a substantial and specific danger to public health or safety.

  365. 365.

    Thoughtful Today

    …

    Snowden revealed criminal spying.

    The criminal spying was done by the Corporation he was employed by and his (our) government.

    Would you agree that that criminal spying should be held equally accountable to the crime of revealing that criminal spying?

  366. 366.

    Carolinus

    @Thoughtful Today:

    Even if it was determined that any parts of his bulk leak revealed actual law breaking, and the criminality of leaking just that portion was overlooked, what about the host of purely foreign intelligence classified programs he disclosed? What about all the programs of allied governments he dumped documents on (Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK)? Just the British intelligence subset numbered in the 10’s of thousands of classified documents (according to Greenwald). Should he have to answer for any of it?

  367. 367.

    Thoughtful Today

    Your focus on Snowden is meant to obscure the criminal spying he revealed. It was unlawful, unwarranted spying in clear violation of the 4th Amendment.

    Your support of that criminal spying is noted.

  368. 368.

    Carolinus

    @Thoughtful Today:

    Your focus on Snowden

    It’s not my focus, it was the focus of the debate questions and the subsequent discussion here. These were Anderson Cooper’s questions to the debaters:

    “Governor Chafee, Edward Snowden, is he a traitor or a hero?”
    “Bring him home, no jail time?”
    “Secretary Clinton, hero or traitor?”
    “Should he do jail time?”
    “Governor O’Malley, Snowden?”
    “Senator Sanders, Edward Snowden?”
    “Is he a hero?”
    “Senator Webb, Edward Snowden?”

  370. 370.

    Applejinx

    @Thoughtful Today: Like I’ve said at length one thread up:

    Hillary triangulates. We can make her into Wal-Mart’s worst nightmare, and we’re in the process of doing it and saw some evidence of that last night.

    Do you seriously think she’s like Bernie, sticking to an ethos faithfully all her life, staunch and unwavering?

    Please. She’s a gifted politician much like Bill was, and about as soulless.

    As such, WE set the tone and we’re doing it. Hillary at her best is there to represent us. In the worst case scenario we sit around moonbatting ineffectually or blindly supporting her, and she’s cast adrift to get direction from whoever seems like they really have specific desires in mind, since the hippies aren’t being specific. In those circumstances (or when for instance she is literally Senator of Wall Street and her job it is to represent them) she will respond to the pressures of the banking sector, for instance, because they are NOT shy about giving this pressure, nor are they uncertain about what they think is best.

    That’s not happening. Instead, Bernie is berning up the country, drawing huge crowds and threatening to out fundraise her. THAT is pressure, from literally the very people Hillary needs to represent. It’s already working. Why stop now?

    When we’ve fully reinvented Hillary Clinton as ‘Bernie, Electable’, then I will be literally just as thrilled to vote for her as I’d be to vote for him. Because it’ll be the same, except Hil is a shrewder pol and might even be better at making that stuff real.

    But you’ve got to motivate her, so I’m going to continue to work for Bernie as long and late as I possibly can. It’s working! We might even be able to elect him President. I’d rather do that, because it’s insurance he won’t have a change of heart and go all Wall Street once he’s got what he wants.

    But what Hillary wants isn’t Wall Street. They’re only a means to an end, and what Hillary wants is the Presidency. Once she has that, she can take stock of everybody she ever represented, from Wall Street to the Berniacs, and see what’s working and what’s no good anymore.

    And Wall Street’s no good anymore, that’s abundantly obvious. She needs to throw them under the bus. We’ll know it when the news story is, ‘Wall Street abandoning Clinton, freaking out’. They’re not sentimental either. They know they can be outbid.

    I’d add that Bill Clinton CORRECTLY interpreted what the zeitgeist was going to do when he got deregulatory. He was right that the American people on the whole wanted that. His sin was in either not seeing that it would hurt them, or not caring so long as he got elected.

    These days the American people clearly want very different things and Hillary has the chance to do what Bill did, with strikingly different results. It can be for the wingnuts to despair at what that will mean.

  372. 372.

    brantl

    My problem with Hilary is that she, like Bill, is a triangulator. It’s like when they speak about policy, they say most of the right things…. but it’s like high school students cramming for a test, and after the test, they go back to thinking what they REALLY believe. And Bernie means exactly what he says.

  373. 373.

    Applejinx

    @brantl: But in that sense Hillary believes nothing, just like Bill before her. Right wing policy wonks got Bill’s ear and he ended up presiding over globalization and the beginning of the decline and fall of the American empire. He didn’t care so much about consequences, he just identified what people wanted.

    People want different things now. Hillary could be the exact opposite of Bill, appearing kind of like a shill but acting against Wall St. etc. because her real boss, the test she’s cramming for, is the American electorate. It’s very different from being Senator of New York. There’s no real reason to assume she’s going to favor earlier special interests that have run their course.

    However, to get the Hillary we want, we have to MAKE those interests fail, and we have to stop worshipping them ourselves. When Bill was furthering corporate power, America love love LOVED corporate power and deregulation and the whole wingnut economic laundry list. That love affair has to stop, across the board, or we’ll get more of the same.

  380. 380.

    Paul in KY

    @JimGod: You can only get the votes of the people who are in your district! The fact that Democrats get jimmied into ‘urban’ districts is completely due to redistricting chicanery by Repub state legislatures.

  381. 381.

    Paul in KY

    @JimGod: You are an idiot. No one draws ‘square boxes’. When we have the redistricting power, we draw them up in a way that favors us. They have had this power a lot more lately & have fixed it to ‘consolidate’ Democratic voters in specific districts & consciously removed them from many other non-city districts.

  382. 382.

    Paul in KY

    @Thoughtful Today: The Republicans LED that deregulation of the banks stuff. Pres. Clinton was foolish/a tool for going along with it, but it was a wholly Republican led plan.

  383. 383.

    Paul in KY

    @Applejinx: ANYONE who runs for the Presidency wants it, whether or not they actually think they have any hope of getting it. I guarantee you Se. Sanders WANTS the Presidency too.

  387. 387.

    JimGod

    @Paul in KY: It’s called a hypothetical based on demographic and geographic information. You’d know this if you were educated. The point is we should not draw districts to benefit any party, we should be neutral as possible or work to eliminate districts all together.

  388. 388.

    Paul in KY

    @JimGod: Yeah, that’ll sure pass thru the legislative chambers where people get to draw them up when they are in power. Any other realistic ideas?

  389. 389.

    JimGod

    @Paul in KY: There are such things as ballot initiatives. But the debate is over how districts are drawn, not if we should have them, unfortunately. I think no party should draw them to their advantage. Independent commissions exsist to do this very thing.

  390. 390.

    The Older Older

    Just wanted to say, the “Older” you’ve been discussing the debates with today is not the “Older” who used to post here and get into arguments about the postal system (among other things). That would be me. Apparently, I have not posted here in so long that my name has become vacant. Okey-doke, I can live with that. Although I hope it doesn’t happen everywhere. I’m too used to my nym.

    FWIW, “Older” and I seem to lean the same way, although I would not say we are completely in agreement.

Comments are closed.