"The American people are sick and tired of hearing about your damn emails!" – @SenSanders to HRC #DemDebate, my vote for quote of the night
— Alex Gangitano (@AlexGangitano) October 14, 2015
CNN closed captioning: "Do Black Lives Matter or do Owl Lives Matter?" #DemDebate pic.twitter.com/Iq52EULmkT
— Russ (@petersorusrexx) October 14, 2015
I thought Clinton was good and probably "won", but glowing media narrative is overcompensating a LOT for having underestimated her before.
— Nate Silver (@NateSilver538) October 14, 2015
After that, do any panicky Democrats feel better about their Biden-less field? I would.
— daveweigel (@daveweigel) October 14, 2015
Bernie Sanders: This campaign is about mobilizing our people to kill the aristocrats in the name of democracy.
— Ben Shapiro (@benshapiro) October 14, 2015
A good start. https://t.co/N0IIlQ1I2r
— Jeb Lund(ead) (@Mobute) October 14, 2015
Woman who has more political experience than the top 4 GOP candidates combined surprises press with competence.
— Bob Schooley (@Rschooley) October 14, 2015
Shorter Hillary Clinton: look at these schmucks. I'm a grown-up. We all know what you should do. No one has to like it.
— Daniel Drezner (@dandrezner) October 14, 2015
I’m feeling it. O’Malley is clearly running for VP, and I think he’s a good choice after this debate.
— Amanda Marcotte (@AmandaMarcotte) October 14, 2015
What about Biden for vice president?
— Niels Lesniewski (@nielslesniewski) October 14, 2015
I'm sorry, and I say this as a Bernie fan, but Hillary is the only one on that stage that I can picture as president. #DemDebate
— Dan Savage (@fakedansavage) October 14, 2015
RNC pushing the message that Bernie Sanders won the debate pic.twitter.com/fj030xevoT
— Garance Franke-Ruta (@thegarance) October 14, 2015
Thoughtful Today
Bernie won on substance.
Hillary won on style, she was exceptionally suave and engaging.
ymmv
SiubhanDuinne
Reublicans are scared p-less of Hillary.
BGinCHI
When Confidence and Good Governance Was Boring: 1984-2020.
–Title of my grandson’s dissertation in Political Philosophy, Obama State University, 2075
Damned at Random
Sanders and O’Malley both impressed me and Clinton met my expectations which were admittedly high. I was engaged and surprised at how fast the time passed
cmorenc
Competence is something too many members of the current MSM are personally unfamiliar with. It surprises them when they unmistakably witness someone in the flesh who bona fide has it, and knocks them out of their usual lazy horse-race or shiny-object narratives.
Iowa Old Lady
Style sounds superficial, but I think we read it as an indication of temperament. I found Obama’s cool style very reassuring.
I saw a comment, I think on here but possibly elsewhere, to the effect that the editor of the Burlington paper, which is mostly liberal, had doubts about Sanders’ temperament because he was more difficult than other local politicians to deal with.
That’s the kind of thing people were reading into Sanders’ shoutiness at the start of the debate, though that could have been adrenaline.
Trentrunner
Anyone hear what the viewers/ratings were?
Kay
I’m just glad Bernie said it because these narratives have an arc and they won’t get off one until there’s some intervening force that PUSHES them over the top line so it trends downward. It’s so reliable I feel as is one could plot it on a graph. Something has to bump them out of the groove or it will literally go on for months, maybe years.
They always get really defensive too when someone accuses them of focusing on something that is not important to “Main Street” because they consider themselves the voice of “Main Street” so the cranky defensiveness is always fun to watch. Jake Tapper is the master of this, and he was very displeased last night that Senator Sanders said Americans don’t give a shit where Clinton stored her emails. Yes they do, he told us, because its not about emails, it’s about National Security.
? Martin
Hillary has never been weak. She was criticized for being too strong as first lady, she was strong when she ran for Senate and in the Senate, she was strong in 2008, she was strong as SecSate. Obama may have been stronger in 2008, but not by a lot judging by the voting.
The RNC should be afraid of her because she’s going to completely walk over 4 of their top 6 candidates, and not have too much trouble dispatching the other two (Bush, Rubio). And I think the GOP has run out of ammunition on her. What are they going to bring up that we haven’t already been hearing since 1992?
BGinCHI
So, Bernie Sander is an avowed socialist. He participated in a debate and by all accounts did very well, without hiding his positions or soft-pedaling his ideas.
I don’t hear anything in the press, of substance (I could stop right there…), that is freaking out at the prospect of him being in this race.
Could it be that “socialism” isn’t as scary as people (who don’t know very much) think? Maybe they are finally realizing that we already have socialism.
It’s called Modern Democracy.
Jay C
@Kay:
Fixt.
Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA
@Trentrunner: I’m wondering the same thing, now that you mention it. I’m sure they were lower than for the GOP debates because competence isn’t as entertaining as a colossal train wreck.
By the way: open thread? Iggy is taught the meaning of courage.
piratedan
@? Martin: hence why the RNC PR machine is touting Sanders because they think that they can get traction with “Socialist!” whereas everything that they’ve thrown at Clinton the last 8 years has essentially been ineffective, even with the NYT fronting their game plan.
If you get either HRC or Bernie in front of a crowd that isn’t comprised solely of the wingnut motorized brigade, everyday folks are going to wonder wtf happened to the GOP.
Another Holocene Human
@? Martin: They savaged her for a comment on baking cookies, FFS. Btw, don’t see a lot of cookies in Michelle Obama’s victory garden scheme. Interesting to look at how Hilary Clinton’s career as First Lady and the reaction she had to deal with influenced the choices that Michelle Obama has made for good and for ill.
NonyNony
@? Martin:
They are afraid of her – it’s why they’ve spent so much time pumping up Sanders and trying to get Biden into the race. They’re sure that they can pull out the old “Red Scare” playbook and knock Sanders out (I think it would be harder than they think, but I’m sure that’s what they think) and they’re also sure that they could knock Biden out handily.
They really don’t want run against Hillary Clinton. That’s why they expended so much energy into turning the Benghazi scandal into a Clinton scandal – to try to cut her off at the knees with a new scandal. They knew the old ones don’t have the traction to stop her, so something new was needed. I assume they’ll try to come up with something else between now and Iowa, though who knows what THAT will be.
the Conster
As a Hillary skeptic, I feel somewhat better about her today than I did yesterday. If both Sanders and Hillary embrace Joe and PBO’s accomplishments unequivocally, there’s no room for Joe. My fear is still about Hillary’s AIPAC overfriendliness, and her neocon nature. And as a woman of a certain age, I can say that she looked great. Her pant suit was perfect, so kudos to her stylist. That shit matters because she needs to look presidential, which means dressing in a way that no one focuses on what you’re wearing or your hair **cough** Trump **cough**. I always thought Obama’s choice of perfectly tailored black suit and white shirt was smart.
catclub
@NonyNony: This.
Gin & Tonic
Has anybody actually seen one of those mythical “panicky Democrats” in the wild?
benw
@SiubhanDuinne: erfect!
catclub
@Gin & Tonic: Does Balloon Juice count?
Jay C
I also used to think that Martin O’Malley was actually running for the VP slot, and had a good chance at it, but now I’m not so sure. Nothing particularly against O’Malley, but I think that as the Dem nominee, Mrs. Clinton is going to need a running mate who will:
1. Make a credible President in the public’s perception
2. Appeal to at least one up-for-grabs demographic
3. Campaign like mad for the ticket and the Party.
Oh, and 4) be as dirt- and scandal-free as humanly possible, given the
probablypredictably vile tenor of the Republican campaign.Not sure Martin meets all the critieria (though I wouldn’t be surprised to see him in a Hillary Clinton Administration cabinet.
@Trentrunner:
I haven’t read any hard numbers, but it seems like the LV Dem debate pulled in at least as many viewers as the last Republican one. Donald Trump’s prediction of a ‘snoozefest”
proved bullshit as alwaysnotwithstanding.NonyNony
@Gin & Tonic: Only on the Internet.
Among my friends in meatspace, it’s either enthusiasm to be able to vote for Clinton or a plan to vote for Sanders in the primary and whoever wins the Dem nomination in the general. No panic, except for the general unease that the GOP has gone so crazy that Donald Trump is viewed as a potential presidential candidate (THAT is kind of leading to a bit of a panic, in that many of them knew the country was kind of stupid but thought that W was kind of the bottom end of the stupidity that the country was capable of.)
Punchy
I thought that Castro dude from TX was in line for the VP slot. Would certainly help bring in the Hispanic vote.
oldgold
After swearing off of “Morning Joe” some time ago, today I tuned in to get their take on the debate. Almost unbelievably, the show has gotten worse. Mika, in particular, is terrible. Hell, Alan Combes was a better liberal counterpoint to Sean Hannity than she is to the insufferable Joe Scarborough.
Elie
@the Conster:
Yes, Hillary looked great and she behaved great — open, optimistic, she laughed, her eyes were bright and engaged.
Bernie has something of a message of doom — kind of a Jeremiah that suits some, but I would like to see him lighten it up a bit in style. He looks old and there isn’t an easy fix for that but it would help me if he would stop scolding and waving his arms around when he makes his points. He has to learn to build from something positive to where he wants us to go instead of all is rotten (even though it may be). No one tackles hard things thinking its all impossible. Does he know a couple of jokes that would help deliver some of his message? I know, I know, some will think he was perfect, but I definitely did not and don’t think he won on content due to his style problems. Seriously — is this how he would behave as a leader in foreign policy — meeting with international leaders? He has one note — financial reform and income equity – a mighty and important topic, but unfortunately, not the only topic for the future leader of the free world. I think he has helped the Democratic Party and Hillary start to come to its/their senses — which is grand. I don’t confuse that with him being nominated as the Democratic standard bearer. No to that.
Martin O’Malley did pretty well and might be a person to consider for VP.
All were substantive and I was proud to be a Democrat last night.
dmsilev
@? Martin:
Benghazi. Duh. Didn’t you know that Clinton only _faked_ Vince Foster’s death; she sent him into deep cover as an assassin, and he was her operative that brought about Benghazi.
Bobby Thomson
@? Martin: Bush is the easiest candidate for her to beat.
Poopyman
@NonyNony: A quote attributed (pre-internet days) to Einstein:
low-tech cyclist
Most of the breathless “Hillary’s falling behind!” crap I’ve heard has been from people who aren’t going to vote Dem anyway, and are voicing their hopes.
I’ve always believed that as soon as Hillary got to get a word in edgewise, and Americans heard what she had to say, rather than only hearing about her email server, she would do just fine. And so it has come to pass.
Joel
If Bernie Sanders were actually advocating killing Ben Shapiro, I’d strongly consider it.
Preferably by rocket ship, aimed at the sun.
Poopyman
@Punchy: The problem with that is right in your comment. Nobody still knows anything about “that Castro dude”.
catclub
@dmsilev: I laughed.
Seanly
I liked a lot of what I heard on the stage last night. Webb & Chaffee (especially Chaffee) should go home. O’Malley was at times making his case to be VP but also pushing his agenda.
Clinton looked very good – she was engaging, upbeat, strong & seemed very well prepared. A few of her answers were non-answers & equivocations. Sanders looked good and I loved a lot of what he said. He did seem a little off his game a couple of times.
My main problem with O’Malley is that I’ve heard he’s anti-choice. I’m a big nut for reproductive freedom.
Sanders calling out Cooper for his over-reliance on Clinton emails BS was great. As Sanders mentioned, the constant harping on the made-up Clinton scandals keeps the focus away from talking about the issues that at the end of the day matter to most Americans much more.
The debate brought up one of my big pet peeves with American politics – this idea that one can never change one’s mind. It’s the most asinine part of our asinine political culture. I want people who will process information and change policies and opinions based on new information. I want politicians who can have their hearts and minds opened and changed. Now, one week to another? Yeah, that’s flip-flopping. But analyzing data and coming to a realization? That’s growth which should be an important feature not just of a well-adjusted adult but in our leaders also.
catclub
@Joel: Serious paraphrase failure.
SFAW
@dmsilev:
But first he had to shoot down Ron Brown’s plane, make it look like a “run of the mill” plane crash (if such a thing exists).
I hear Vince also helped noted Al-Qaeda pawn Saddam Hussein spirit his nukes out of
BenghaziIranIraq beforeHalliburtonthe US armed forces found them.Jim, Foolish Literalist
I think they all live on the Bob Shrum Old Consultants Preserve, funded by rich people who like to think they’re getting inside information and giving advice that people want, and where they feed on attention from political reporters. They’re taken out for exercise in the green rooms of CNN and MSNBC, and sometimes for a nice lunch with white tablecloths. There is no breeding program.
SFAW
@Bobby Thomson:
Bullshit. The polls show him surging from 7.1 percent to 7.3 percent in the last day. MarciaMarciaMarcia Jindal better watch out – Jeb! might be gaining on him!
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
The funniest part is that Ben Shapiro actually seems to think he’s an aristocrat.
Alex S.
The corporate media pushes Hillary because they know the White House stays Democratic and Sanders scares them.
The RNC pushes Sanders because Hillary scares them.
Cervantes
@Poopyman:
Dumas, fils.
SFAW
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
I heard they made a film about him and his family.
benw
@Joel: Waste of good rocket fuel.
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): People like him are always aristocrats right up until the guillotines come out. Then they were always, always for the common man.
Betty Cracker
@Jay C:
I sure hope that’s the case. The contrast with the GOP clowns couldn’t have been more stark.
Keith G
@Jay C: Exactly. From what I have seen, I am not a fan of O’Malley being anywhere within a heart beat of the Oval Office. There is something about him that vibes being too small for the office.
@the Conster:
Would be cool if all of PBO’s accomplishments deserved unequivocal embrace. The great things about choosing a new and enlightened leadership is the chance to build on the successes of the old, to reevaluate the shortcomings, and to forge ahead to new ground.
BTW: Did any of you know that Barak Obama bought a box with a red button that when pressed exclaims “Bull Shit!”
Well you would if you listen to Mike Pesca’s podcast, “The Gist”
The blurb for this episode is:
.
The real blurb should be: Find out how cool it would be to work for Barak Obama. This is a must listen.
Starfish
@low-tech cyclist: I do not like what she has to say. She is going to be soft on the financial assholes. And did she seriously include Iran in her list of enemies when Secretary of State Kerry and Obama have worked so hard to improve that relationship? But I will vote for her over anyone on the Republican crazy train.
Poopyman
@SFAW: That was the first thing that came to my mind too. Sigh.
Another Holocene Human
@Alex S.: The corporate media is pushing the Hilary email stuff because they fucking hate the Clintons, always have, and a lot of them long for a GOPer in the WH, presumably JEB or someone suitably patrician like that.
Belafon
@Alex S.:
The media was enabling the email thing. Don’t think they were pushing Clinton.
Comrade Jake
Erick the Eric made me laugh. Here’s his take:
Alrighty then!
Matt McIrvin
@low-tech cyclist: Nate Silver is currently arguing that the media are excessively pumping the extremity of her debate victory because they were underestimating her strength in the first place, and are trying to save appearances.
Liberal With Attitude
Based on my anecdata of These Kids Today, Sockulism!!! just doesn’t have much horror to it.
The more Sanders can hang around and plant memes in the public imagination (why not have state-run banks? Medicare for all?), the better.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Seanly: Eh? O’Malley is pro-choice:
Cheers,
Scott.
Thoughtful Today
“Would be cool if all of PBO’s accomplishments deserved unequivocal embrace. The great things about choosing a new and enlightened leadership is the chance to build on the successes of the old, to reevaluate the shortcomings, and to forge ahead to new ground.”
Amen.
Cacti
Disagree with Marcotte about O’Malley.
I don’t see him bringing anything in particular to a ticket as Veep.
amk
@Matt McIrvin:
silver should just stick to his day job, which is aggregating and analyzing numbers, not politics.
MomSense
@? Martin:
It’s going to be a lot of smear by association. They will bring up Epstein and even though there is no there there, this is the kind of poo they will throw at the Clintons endlessly.
We have to prepare ourselves not to panic and to fight back against all the media outlets who push the smears. We can put together lists of advertisers and contact information. It’s going to be a messy fight.
BGinCHI
@Liberal With Attitude: Exactly right.
MomSense
@Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA:
That is a super cute photo of the pups. I bet they can get into some serious mischief.
MattF
I have to note WaPo Cillizza’s contribution to our national debate:
I mean, FFS.
ETA: Even supposing that was an attempt at humor.
ThresherK (GPad)
@piratedan: When HRC was the nominee-apparent in 2007 Fox News had some nice things to say about that young fella with the big ears. Nothing Foxfckers crush on like a second-place Democrat during primary season.
Tom F
@Betty Cracker:
It drew about half of what each of the first two Republican debates did. Still, it was more (by 20-30%) than the most viewed Dem debates of 2008.
http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/14/media/cnn-democratic-debate-ratings-record/
Linnaeus
Right now, I’m in sympathy with Silver’s argument that Clinton’s performance last night is being pumped because they denigrated her strengths going into the debate.
Which is not to say that Clinton didn’t do well. I’ve thought all along that she was the Democratic front-runner for a reason and that she will end up being the Democratic nominee. She has a broader appeal than the other candidates and broader experience with a number of issues which puts her in a better position to beat the Republicans than anyone else on the Democratic side.
There were at least a couple of weaknesses that I saw in Clinton last night. I thought the “we are not Denmark” remark was something I’d expect a Republican to say – there’s nothing wrong with looking to other countries for ideas on policy and Denmark isn’t exactly a communist dictatorship hellhole. I also thought that Clinton was a little weaker on the foreign policy questions, which surprised me because I expected that to be a relative strength of hers. She spun away from questions about Iraq, Syria, etc. with not much to say and there was an opportunity for the others, especially Sanders to press her on that.
ThresherK (GPad)
@Matt McIrvin: Trash a leading Dem and then later, quickly bring their results in accord with what voters think as decision time draws near?
Isn’t that Rasmussen polling job?
trollhattan
@dmsilev:
For the operation they came ashore during the dead of night in whitewater kayaks. You could look it up, but then they’d keeeelll you dayddd.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Belafon: yeah, the media hates Hillary Clinton, left, right and professional center. Watching so many of them pimp Biden (he’s not her!) is really tiresome
sukabi
@oldgold: read yesterday that UpChuck Toads Beat the press show has lost 21% of it’s viewers since they expanded his time slot…perhaps the same thing is happening to Walcott and his dead intern.
Thoughtful Today
“[Bernie] has one note — financial reform and income equity”
Nonsense.
Anyone who’s had the patience to listen to any of the dozens of hour long speeches in front of thousands upon thousands of people knows Bernie’s got an exceptional breadth of interests and issues.
More than that, I’ve listened to the guy repeatedly, going back most of ten years on the Thom Hartmann show nearly every Friday, he’s exceptionally well informed, has extraordinarily good judgement on myriad issues, and knows how to articulate them in clear English.
Anyone who’s saying he’s a ‘Johnny One Note’ either hasn’t made the time to read or listen to him or is a partisan who pushing a cheap, dishonest smear.
sukabi
@sukabi: should be Waldo (all he’s lacking is the red and white striped sweater…stupid dye job and glasses)
catclub
Trump said he would watch and tweet. Apparently none were of any note.
Elie
@Linnaeus:
I see your point but as you and I discussed last night, IMO in general Bernie blew making any positive statements about the country he actually wants to lead. He also had not one good thing to say about any Obama policy, though he would be following a successful Democratic administration of the first black President of the US. That was an easy way for him to try to shore up the breach he has had to make his candidacy appealing across the whole Democratic base, and he left that on the table.
Fair Economist
Bernie came off as the opinion leader, but Hillary came off as the one who’d be best at getting stuff done. The sharpest example was the arguments over reinstating Glass-Steagal and breaking up the big banks. Hillary had an excellent point that the biggest risks are actually in the shadow banking system and Bernie was obviously caught flatfooted by that. Bernie’s right about the banks needing to be reined in but it was obvious that even now he hasn’t put much thought into *how*. Hillary has.
I got a similar feel from the discussion about expanding Medicare. We know Hillary supports expanding Medicare in the abstract, because that was part of her 2008 health care plan (Medicare at 55). But when Cooper asked if she agreed with Bernie about expanding Medicare and Social Security, I swear I could see the wheels turning in her head. “Good idea, but can’t even pass in Vermont and brings the $15 trillion dollar attack line”. Great idea in the abstract, great long term goal, but it’s not going to happen in 2017.
GregB
@Comrade Jake:
It is hilarious to see wingnuts now declaring diversity a virtue.
Cacti
@Linnaeus:
We’re not Denmark.
There are 8 United States metros that have more people than the whole of Denmark. If Denmark was admitted to the union, it would be the 21st most populous state between Wisconsin and Minnesota.
Denmark is also 89.6% ethnic Danish.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
I’m sure O’Malley is auditioning for VP at this point but I’m not sure what he brings to the table. A swing state Democratic Governor would presumably put that State in the Blue column. Maryland is not a swing state in presidential elections so they’d have to look elsewhere if that’s the goal.
If the goal is to motivate minorities to show up at the polls, Deval Patrick is not from a swing state, but he is a minority and very charismatic. He’s also got, IMO, big enough shoes to fill the oval office should that be necessary.
Amir Khalid
@catclub:
The Democratic debate was all about substance. Trump doesn’t know jack about substance.
Kay
@Linnaeus:
Political media’s relationship with Hillary Clinton is exhausting and ultimately boring. It’s like listening to people in a bad marriage- there’s the ancient litany of grievances and mistrust and tired narratives. They should get their heads out of their asses and step back and see if it’s possible for them to cover this person in some way that is at all professional or objective. I had the same feeling last night I always have with Clinton- where I’m startled by how extremely normal she seems.
fedupwithhypocrisy
@Punchy:
Julian Castro: he’s young, smart as a whip, and compassionate–his family story is as compelling as Rubio’s, yet he’s neither smug nor smarmy.
Jeffro
@MomSense:
True, but you know what? I have no doubts that Clinton will seriously take these people to the woodshed herself as well. There’s not going to be any Swiftboating this time around.
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@ThresherK (GPad): They also had really nice things to say about Hillary in 2012. I guess that’s well past it’s use by date at this point though.
MomSense
@Linnaeus:
It’s a bit of a silly comment on Silver’s part because campaign surrogates always try to lower expectations for their candidates before debates. No one wants the headline the next day to be disappointment in candidate’s debate performance. I personally think debates are overrated in terms of offering much insight into how a candidate would govern, but this is part of the game we use to choose our representatives.
Amir Khalid
@Thoughtful Today:
From your link, way down there in the small print at the bottom of the home page:
You’re presenting fan fiction as evidence.
MomSense
@Jeffro:
She better take them to the woodshed because it seems she is all that is between us and one of the Republican klowns.
ETA I still think it takes all of us to raze a Village meme.
Applejinx
The media’s been trying to hide Sanders, not pushing him. We’ll see if the debate exposure changes things.
My take on that is, so you need that platform but somebody the Village can understand? Fine, we’ll make Hillary into the public face of the Sanders platform. That’s what political pressure does and that’s all Bernie ever intended when he started. Mission fucking accomplished already, now we’re just seeing how much more we can get.
I’m pleased with how smart and adept Hillary is. I just want to know who she thinks her boss is, because any decent politican is answering to SOMEBODY, otherwise they’re Bernie and you have to just hope they agree with all your points (Bernie has some big failings, notably we’re not going to convince him to disarm like Australia did. Na Ga Ha Pen. That, he can’t even imagine)
If Hillary thinks her boss is the massive stadium-filling crowds turning out for Bernie and getting thrilled about Elisabeth Warren (who’s not running for Prez), we have it made. All you have to do to turn Hil into Warren is, outbid Wall Street in political influence. Because money isn’t literally votes, you can do that, and we are doing that, with Bernie spearheading the movement. I see tons of general voter acceptance of the ‘fuck wall street’ ethos, and them spending money to stifle the voice of the people just pisses people off.
A dollar spent on Bernie is a dollar spent on establishing the progressive platform, and a dollar spent on turning Hillary into Bernie. Her eye’s to the voters, not just to the largest donators: you can’t buy her faithfulness if it means not representing a more powerful interest group. The point is to BE that more powerful interest group.
In a way it’s honest. You can say she’s listening. To make her stop listening to Wall Street, convince her they’re not merely dangerous but outnumbered. She’s gotta answer to the people in the end. Back in the Bill Clinton days, the people were already swinging right towards what would become Dubya, and he correctly followed the will of the people and the people were dumbasses. Let’s not be dumbasses, or let’s be dumbasses in the opposite direction and Hillary will happily go along.
Thoughtful Today
@Linnaeus:
Nate Silver’s only worth listening to if he’s talking about NUMBERS that are coming directly from POLLS that he’s aggregated.
Outside of that he’s talking out his ass, and worse, he increasingly seems to be pushing an agenda.
Pundits are talking about Hillary because she put in an extraordinary performance.
Especially extraordinary as it was largely unexpected as she’s often come off as forced and unnatural.
She was fluid, natural, and appeared completely comfortable and confidant.
Jeffro
@MomSense: Well there is her, a pretty unified Democratic party, a decent-if-not-nearly-fair-enough economy, utter klowns for opponents as you have noted (and a GOP basically in the middle of its own civil war), Obama & Co. hopefully helping with GOTV, and so on.
Knock on wood…but I’d much rather be us than them, and I’m glad we have her instead of even their best klown.
KG
seeing that last tweet about how Sanders “won” the debate being pushed by the GOP kinda makes me wonder… didn’t they do the same thing in 2008? and how’d that eventually work out for them?
@Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA: I’m with Muppet on this one, “hold my beer” is totally something you say before doing something cool (which is also probably stupid, but hey, what are you going to do?)
Elie
@fedupwithhypocrisy:
I’m open but would have to see him in action. He has never run for statewide, much less national office. VP is a rough, attack role and a Presidential campaign is very tough. VERY significantly, he would be VP to older candidates, whether Hillary or esp Bernie. Does he have the chops to be President in an emergency replacement. I don’t know the answer to that, but he is the HUD Secy and was a mayor — neither to me big enough experience. While I get the issue that Martin OMalley has down sides, the guy has stature and experience and to me sounded like he could bring a good argument as well as possibly have enough gravitas to step into a “god forbid” situation.
Betty Cracker
@Tom F: WTF is up with that, I wonder? Is it because Trump’s reality show audience followed him to the debates? I have no idea how ratings stacked up for past Dem and Rep primary debates.
dedc79
Jonah Goldberg’s feelings were hurt when Hillary identified Republicans as an enemy.
He truly lacks any self awareness.
Kay
One of my favorite parts of the debate wasn’t the candidates at all. It was Dana Bash, who made it clear she considers paid family leave from work as far-fetched as living on the moon or something. I mean, for God’s sake. All she needed was a podium and she could have been one of the candidates, the candidate who is OPPOSED to paid family leave- she made that clear.
Linnaeus
@Elie:
Good point, and I agree that Sanders had some opportunities that he let slip by – foreign policy was one of those, because his views are actually pretty close to those of Obama’s. That would have been a twofer for him – show your continuities with this president and how you differ from the front runner. But he wasn’t nimble enough to pick up on that.
SiubhanDuinne
@Applejinx:
I am really liking your comments last night and today. You have both an exceptional grasp of the value Bernie brings to Hillary’s campaign, and an exceptional understanding of the differences between them and why that’s a Good Thing. You write clearly and gracefully, and your comments are just a pleasure to read. I know you’ve been around for a while (not sure how long) but I hope we’ll see even more of you.
singfoom
I thought both Bernie and Hillary did an excellent job. Regardless of who comes out to win the nomination, as others have said, it’s refreshing to see adults debating substance.
If Hilary wins, I hope she picks Bernie as her VP. I think that would be a winning combination in both policy and persona.
If Bernie wins, I hope he picks Hilary as his VP, but even though I prefer Bernie’s policies in regards to the financial sector more and even though there’s a lot of excitement for him, I think Hilary will end up with the nomination.
Thoughtful Today
“He also had not one good thing to say about any Obama policy, though he would be following a successful Democratic administration of the first black President of the US.”
[sigh]
Black unemployment is what?
Clearly you don’t know it’s INSANELY high.
Black incarceration is what?
Clearly you don’t know it’s INSANELY high.
Black poverty rates are what?
Clearly you don’t know it’s INSANELY high.
Please stop with the authoritarian leader worship.
Alex S.
@Another Holocene Human:
@Belafon:
I’m only talking about right now though. Yes, the media hates Clinton but even they have to see that a republican presidency is getting more and more unlikely, now that there is chaos in the House and after Trey Gowdy’s Benghazi gaffe. So better her than Sanders, if Biden isn’t running – and even the media must realize now that there will be no Biden campaign.
Cervantes
@Amir Khalid:
What makes it fiction?
KG
@Elie: Castro was mayor of San Antonio, which has a population of 1.4 million people. That makes it, by population, the same size as Hawaii, or larger than 10 states. And it’s political executive experience vs legislative experience, so that has to be a point in his favor.
Elie
@Thoughtful Today:
These debates are job interviews and the candidates must make the best of them. Yes, I am sure Bernie has views on a number of issues. Last night, he did not articulate that broad knowledge but hit the same thing over and over. He was also consistently negative, with very little to offer up positive about this country — you know, the one he is running to lead. He brought up Denmark as a gold standard. Denmark. What – 80 million or so mostly white people. Its like he doesn’t appreciate both the gift AND the challenge of this country. Yes, he is totally right on about our income inequity and our financial skewing to the rich. But he also has to voice some understanding and yes, appreciation of what we have good that we can build on. He failed that miserably, IMO.
Elie
@KG:
As I said, I can be convinced. I would like to see him in action — how he comes across. Clearly it would be mighty fine to have a Latino VP candidate!
Linnaeus
@Cacti:
Yes, I know. But Denmark’s size and demography aren’t relevant to the rhetorical point that Clinton was trying to make, which was to tag him as some kind of crazy socialist revolutionary. I don’t think there’s anything particularly crazy about saying that maybe the US can learn something from other countries and I thought it was shallow on Clinton’s part.
Thoughtful Today
@Starfish:
[Hillary] is going to be soft on the financial assholes.
But to hear the Neoliberal Economists that’s the way it’s supposed to be: Banks dictating to politicians.
And did she seriously include Iran in her list of enemies when Secretary of State Kerry and Obama have worked so hard to improve that relationship?
It was a very reckless faux pas, pointlessly antagonistic.
celticdragonchick
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
I keep nagging Shapiro on twitter about whether he has found his scrotum since Zoey Tur cut his nuts off on live tv and hang them from her rear view mirror.
Botsplainer
@BGinCHI:
There is a price to be paid when you call everything that you don’t like “socialist tyranny”.
Elie
@Applejinx:
Great points I take seriously and agree with.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: She was probably thinking, “Why on earth can’t their team of nannies take care of the new baby or sick child?”
Amir Khalid
@singfoom:
Not sure if Bernie would make a good deputy/understudy to President Hillary. Chafee, Webb and O’Malley don’t look all that promising either. She will probably have to look outside the 2016 field. I’m sure she’s already started preliminary evaluation of a number of possibles.
jl
@singfoom: I think Sanders would prefer to stay in a Democratic Senate and try to lead Bernie’s grass roots army to pressure an HRC administration to pass more progressive legislation. I can’t see Sanders accepting a VP slot.
The other three were so overshadowed by HRC and Sanders that I am not sure O’Malley would be the best pick for VP. He has to do better at making an impression to really help a ticket.
Peale
@Thoughtful Today: One deal does not a friendship make. And her position isn’t really different from Sanders, who on his website supports the deal, but repeats the narrative that it could have been better.
amk
@Thoughtful Today:
Honest question. Sanders has some plans to bring these ‘horrible’ numbers down, I presume?
Elie
@Kay:
Dana Bash is one of the most stoopid of the CNN gang. She is simple minded and generally unimpressive on everything
celticdragonchick
@jl:
O’Malley may get Secretary of Dept of Energy or Interior.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Kay:
There’s a reason people say a lot of male journalists react to Hillary like she’s their first wife. And the younger ones often act like she’s their mom and they’re rebellious high schoolers, which is just as tedious.
Germy Shoemangler
Question for balloon-juicers who understand how water mains in houses work:
My city is replacing old water mains on my street (one burst last winter a few blocks from our house).
Hardhat guy from the water dept. just knocked on my door. Wanted to know if I have a garden hose. I told him yes.
He said while they shut down the water main they’ll be piping water into my house through our garden hose. That’s the only way we can have water.
My first question was “will it flood my boiler?”
For some reason I am convinced pumping our water through our garden hose in back of the house (rather than the water main) will flood our heating boiler. The pipe is narrow and runs right over the boiler.
He told me it wouldn’t, but I can’t shake this feeling of dread…
Also, won’t my water pressure significantly decrease if all water goes through tiny pipe in back of house?
Brachiator
@Thoughtful Today:
I didn’t see the debate or even read much about it, but I saw a couple of news reports that indicated that all the participants were well received, and that it was primarily the Hillary and Bernie show.
The Republicans should be a little worried. The Dems seem to have started out well.
Thoughtful Today
@Amir Khalid:
Amir, the http://feelthebern.org website is stuffed full of actual Bernie positions, actual Bernie quotes, actual Bernie policies, and an extraordinary number of actual videos of BERNIE speaking.
Please stop being dismissive and belittling.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
We have a cranky old magistrate (I love him). If the lawyers step out of their appointed role he says “do you want to testify? Get up here. I’ll swear you in”. I’m in there enough to know when it’s going to happen- I can feel it coming.
They need someone like that at CNN. “Hey Dana- are you running for something?”
Botsplainer
@NonyNony:
Every election consultant worth a shit will tell you that when presented with a choice between a right wing man and a center-left woman with a reasonable demeanor, a sizable percentage of conservative women will defect in the privacy of the voting booth, particularly those who are middle aged and older. I dunno if it is a gleeful bit of defiance of the knuckleheads they’re tied to or a brief moment of gender unity, but it does happen. In the People’s Democratic Socialist Sharia Kenyan Republic of Louisville, women (even liberal women) tend to overperform in conservative precincts.
chopper
@Thoughtful Today:
said with no sense of irony at all, apparently.
celticdragonchick
@Germy Shoemangler:
Moving water through a smaller diameter hose will decrease the pressure according to Bernoulli’s Principle since you are increasing the water velocity.
http://www.irrigationtutorials.com/using-a-smaller-pipe-to-increase-water-pressure
My basic intuition was that was what would happen, but this site also explains it.
chopper
@Linnaeus:
I took her comment as more a statement that Bernie needs to spend more time outside of his small, very white state.
Betty Cracker
@Germy Shoemangler: I don’t know the answer to your specific question, but I’ve never trusted municipal hardhat guys since an incident that occurred years ago when I was living in Tampa and workers managed to turn my toilet into a sewer geyser. I had to replace everything in my bathroom — at my own expense. So yeah, you’re probably right to be wary!
Cervantes
@celticdragonchick:
Yikes.
Jeepers, even.
Applejinx
@SiubhanDuinne: I used to post as jinxtigr, I’ve had a song (‘Discord Welcome Home’) posted as a FP open thread, and Imani liked me for explaining why climate change means increased chaos and a wider range of insane weather events (it can indeed be the biggest existential threat to a country, especially if you have any coastlines subject to hurricanes and tsunami).
I have indeed been around for a while. If you like my writing, it’s because I’ve written waaaay over a million words of fiction, first original and then brony fanfiction. I’m a naughty pony but have a great deal of fun with it and even sneak important themes in there, and I’ll be starting an eighth pony book this Fall for those into that sort of thing.
Thank you! It’s all very well getting internet nods while half-starving up in Vermont and cheering on Bernie, but it’s genuinely wonderful to hear back from someone who confirms you’re getting through. That said, w.r.t the Clinton posts, I feel it’s more important to sway people who are skeptical but willing to lean that direction. We DO have to direct Hillary. She’s looking for that zeitgeist, like Bill before her, and if she doesn’t find it in fired-up stadium-filling progressives, she’ll find it on Wall Street. And packing the house for Hillary could mean anything, but packing the house for Bernie means very specific things. Hillary is paying close attention and working VERY hard to stay on top of this one. Keep the direction clear.
CONGRATULATIONS!
If only. None of these people have ever met a true leftist, that’s plain enough. Bernie’s pretty middle of the road.
singfoom
@Amir Khalid: @jl: That’s fair. I’m not sure Sanders would accept a VP slot either, my comments were me being hopeful.
You might be right that Sanders would be more effective pushing the agenda in the Senate but I was talking from more of a electorate / GOTV excitement standpoint. Regardless I think as Applejinx noted above, Bernie can/is helping push HRC to the left.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Germy Shoemangler: It will not flood your boiler. You won’t have a lot of water pressure, but some is a hell of a lot better than none.
celticdragonchick
@Cervantes:
Shapiro is a transphobic asshole who kept insulting transwoman Zoey Tur on live tv until she leaned over, put her hand on his shoulder and asked him if her really wanted to take this discussion out back. Tur has been under enemy fire and gave first aid to wounded Israeli soldiers while under rocket attack. Little Ben Shapiro…not so much.
It was fucking awesome. He tried to file a criminal complaint against her, natch. Hasn’t gone anywhere. (His book is called “Bullies: How the Left’s Culture of Fear and Intimidation Silences America” and features a “liberal fist” punching out helpless conservative bedwetters).
Thoughtful Today
@Elie:
[sigh]
I was offended when Anderson Cooper deliberately mis-characterized Bernie’s remarks on Denmark, Sweden, and Finland as just “Denmark”.
More than that, most of Europe is relatively “democratic socialist”, add the populations of Canada and Japan and … we’re now talking about a population far greater than the U.S. of A..
Anderson came off as a sleazy ass. So are a few people in this thread….
Bernie’s not one to complain about the media, though. In fact, his snap about the DAMNED EMAILS is the only time I’ve recalled him talking about the unfairness of the media in the decade I’ve been listening to the guy.
Linnaeus
@chopper:
Which he does, and the fact that he hasn’t is one of a few reasons why he won’t be the nominee.
But the context of that remark by Clinton was an exchange about capitalism, and I thought that particular moment was illustrative of an important difference between Sanders and Clinton. Maybe I’m making too much of it, but I don’t think Sanders was saying what Clinton was implying he said.
NonyNony
@Botsplainer:
We’ll see if it happens for Clinton. She’s been the target of so much right-wing outrage over the decades that it feels like Republican women don’t view her the same way they might another center-left candidate. In that she’s a socialist demon from the netherworld rather than an actual woman running for office.
Paul in KY
@Jay C: Also needs to be even more Democratic-Lefty-Commie than Hillary, so no assassination scenarios, as that would bring the Commie into the Presidency.
Paul in KY
@Joel: I’d just go with pistol to back of head. Ben doesn’t deserve the money it would cost to send him into the sun (as fun as that might be to watch).
amk
@Thoughtful Today:
I watched the debate a little bit, he took some potshots at the corporate media. Kudos to him.
Kay
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
I did think he had trouble connecting the dots last night, though. It’s really important he explain his “movement” to those who aren’t in it. I know his lack of polish is part of his appeal because I did a couple of shifts at a County Dem event with Sanders supporters and I really liked them-they can explain it. He has to explain it though. It’s not intuitive. He has to tell people what he means. I like Sanders and I was almost worried about him, with the “millions and millions”, over and over. I have this background and context because I had it explained to me but not everyone does. It’s just a really big country. One by one is impossible.
Citizen_X
And?
Amir Khalid
@Thoughtful Today:
Most of Europe may be social-democratic nations. If you can conclude that from the fact that they are currently led by social democratic governments. But is America a social-democratic nation? What is your evidence for such a claim?
Germy Shoemangler
@CONGRATULATIONS!: Thanks. I started worrying right after my encounter with the municipal hardhat guy. He just didn’t inspire confidence.
@celticdragonchick: All our water coming into the house through the narrow pipe that leads to the garden hose… This isn’t going to be good. But there’s nothing I can do; it’s great they’re replacing the old water main on our street. I wish they had done it last summer instead of waiting for freezing temperatures.
@Betty Cracker:
I’ve had bad experiences with municipal folks as well, so now my anxiety antenna is raised and alert…
jl
@Thoughtful Today:
” the only time I’ve recalled him talking about the unfairness of the media in the decade I’ve been listening to the guy.”
Sanders has been criticizing media regularly recently, and his dismissal of questions about the Clinton email scandal as a politically, and perhaps sexist, smear campaign is not new either. Several reporters have gotten a version of his response to Cooper’s question recently.
Betty Cracker
@Botsplainer: Agreed. Someone will be along to smarmily point out that they don’t vote based on genitalia thankyewveramuch shortly, but it would be a BFD to have a woman as a credible candidate for president. A BFD.
Sherparick
@oldgold: She simply echoes his crap now. They were both very down because Hilary did so well & Bernie stayed in the issues. Hilary did Bernie a favor by stating he wants the US to look like Denmark. After all Denmark is a pretty nice place.
Uncle Cosmo
FTR everyone here who has airily opined that “Martin O’Malley is running for VP” or “a cabinet position” is utterly FOS. And not even faintly original shit: Months before he declared, a smarmy NYT article sneered that he was running for “Secretary of HUD in a Clinton Administration.”
I’ve known Martin for nearly 30 years. I have never known him to run for an office he has no shot at winning. In 1990, a 27-year-old unknown, he lost his first race–a Democratic primary for the MD State Senate vs a one-term incumbent–by 44 votes. He hasn’t lost since.
That’s not to say he wouldn’t eventually end up in one of those positions–but it’s not what he’s running for. and it’s not why he’s running.
IMO in this debate, O’Malley most needed to establish that he could stand on the same stage as Sanders and Clinton as a credible candidate for the nomination. From what I’m hearing from most Democratic sources, he achieved that. (YMMV.)
That may give him a modest bounce in the polls & in fundraising, More importantly, it’s going to help persuade Democrats in IA and NH to come hear him speak & meet him. When they do, they’ll like him (says his friend for almost 30 years). Enough to caucus or vote for him next year? We’ll see.
But I guarantee you, whatever the outcome, you will not find a more zealous & tireless campaigner for the Democratic ticket and Democrats nationwide next year. As he recently put it, he’s “carried a lot of water for this donkey” & I don’t see him stopping now.
Applejinx
@amk:
I don’t think he does. At least, not anything that will play in Detroit or Ferguson.
Bernie’s only answers are, Economic Revolution and ‘bring on staffers who are better at this stuff’. That’s all well and good but Hillary can easily clobber him here, and probably should (if it doesn’t undermine what Bernie’s suggesting which is valid).
You don’t hold office in the USA as a Socialist since God was a boy, unless you Really Truly Deeply believe that’s the solution to issues like this. The problem is, that’s a practical/structural answer and not a political answer.
By that I mean, if you really do fix the economic thing, black people DO end up with economic power, do start businesses and do things and step outside the ghettoization they’re forced into FOR ECONOMIC REASONS, and the longterm result of that is a reducing of prejudice and eventually, true equality in the Martin Luther King sense. This is a very realistic, practical approach, and it’s easy for Bernie to fall back on it because Ferguson is not a town in Vermont, not even close.
But if a guy has a huge big rock lying on him crushing him, you don’t say ‘Here’s what we do, we’ll plant a tree. The tree will inevitably shift and destroy the rock and you’ll be fine, because trees easily overcome big rocks’.
That’s Bernie’s problem. His answers are correct and even indispensable, but they’re not political answers. People in Ferguson etc. do in fact deserve better than Bernie is giving them and that’s why he added staffers to fill in and give the political answers for him.
It’s important to not overlook that Bernie’s answers here are the true longterm answers: anything that is purely justice/politics based will eventually backfire, but the Socialist’s economic answer will tend to reduce the largely economic injustices that produce the conditions we’ve got to change. We have to also do all Bernie wants done, but that will take decades, maybe centuries to literally produce complete equality.
We have to do things NOW as a message about justice, whether or not they produce some backlash among racists. We can’t simply wait for the racists to naturally dwindle away thanks to economic justice.
Sherparick
@celticdragonchick: apparently a 50% marginal upper rate equals Reign of Terror for America’s plutocrats. Shapiro apparently does not realize that we are not suppose to have aristocrats in a democracy.
Brachiator
@Amir Khalid:
Sanders comes from a state which is so small that would not bring much to the ticket. Assuming that Hillary ends up being the nominee, she might look at a Latino as a VP choice. It would drive the GOP wild.
But who knows how this will all turn out. It is very early.
Calouste
@Seanly:
A large number of Americans believe in a book that has been the same for 2000 years. Changing your mind is literally heresy to these people. Keep in mind that in evangelical mythology people don’t slowly change their minds to become religious, they get a “revelation”, or a “conversion”. It instantaneous, not a process of learning and self-reflection.
celticdragonchick
@Paul in KY:
There ya go.
Cervantes
@Elie:
What issues do you think he neglected to discuss?
If you watch the debate or look at the transcript, it’s certainly true that he tried to focus on problems and solutions, as opposed to waving flags and making rah-rah statements about how great the country is. I had no problem with that. If I want mindless jingoism, I can listen to the Republicans for a minute or two.
Denmark has a population of about 6M people, not 80M — and “minorities” make up about 10%. What Sanders said about Denmark, Sweden (10M, 20%), and Norway (5M, 15%) was that we should “learn from what they have accomplished for their working people.” I had no problem with that.
celticdragonchick
@Sherparick:
Shapiro is loathsome little lickspittle who is begging for crumbs from the Koch table and trying to stay relevant on the wingnut gravy train circuit. His whole schtick is “mean libruls are scaring honest and decent conservatives and they want to beat me…I mean all of us up”
themann1086
Folks! I must show you this!
IT’S BEAUTIFUL!
celticdragonchick
@Germy Shoemangler:
It’s going to take weeks and you better find a place where you can shower etc when they fuck things up.
Be assured they will fuck things up.
Elizabelle
Kojo Nnamde radio show: Ta-Nehisi Coates on live now.
Cervantes
@Uncle Cosmo:
Nonsense, I agree.
Another Holocene Human
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: I wish he had run. Certainly better than Lincoln Who?. But I heard his wife put the kibosh on all that.
celticdragonchick
@themann1086:
Jesus…it’s like a direct to cable SciFi sharknado movie:
DUDEBROS GONE WILD!!!!
The butthurt is strong with them.
? Martin
In case anyone was disillusioned about what the 2nd amendment fetishists are really about.
White people with guns are patriots, black people with guns are killers. So long as the gun fanatics feel they have a superiority in armament over minorities, they’re all in favor, regardless of how many kids get killed.
amk
@Applejinx:
Thanks for the honest answer. While I agree that Sanders has holistic, large picture solutions, the issues TT raised are endemic & systemic, long-term issues, for which, he seems to blame Obama, rather unfairly, for not solving them in double quick time. Hence my question to him.
Cervantes
@Thoughtful Today:
Did he say it was unfair? I don’t think so.
Not a word there about unfairness; he was complaining about distraction as a means of population control (my paraphrase, obviously).
Thoughtful Today
@amk:
Bernie’s racial justice plans have had a lot of direct input from Black Lives Matter advocates.
If you visit that link you’ll find he leads with the issues advocated by Black Lives Matters: “addressing the four central types of violence waged against black and brown Americans: physical, political, legal and economic.”
Jumping to the economic points you asked about:
Bernie’s also advocating a trillion dollar infrastructure program. Federal contracts have wide latitude in demanding racial equality in hiring practices. Very real jobs.
This still largely requires a functional and amenable Congress, but that’s his persistent point about needing a “revolution” of voters willing to stand up, do the hard work, and demand that politicians get behind these policies or find a new job.
chopper
@Linnaeus:
i agree, but i think that important difference you mention is one of pragmatism vs idealism.
i’ve had similar discussions with progressives regarding the success of the safety net/education system etc in nordic states, but i’ve had to point out that while that sort of thing is certainly technically implementable here, it’s much easier to get it past voters in a homogenous culture. it’s a lot easier to convince people to give up an even higher percentage of their pay to help their neighbor out when their neighbor looks like them, talks like them and goes to the same church as they do.
places like denmark can be a useful example but the example doesn’t really go beyond abstract ideas and generalities when it comes to the US.
celticdragonchick
@? Martin:
Bit of an over large generalization there.
Some of those 2nd Amendment open carry groups did several open carry protests at the Wal Mart where John Crawford was murdered by a SWAT unit for being black with store merchandise. They were right to do so, IMHO. If you believe in open carry (which I am not a fan of btw) then it is for everyone…including John Crawford who was killed for holding a Wal mart BB gun he was going to buy while talking on a cell phone.
Another Holocene Human
@Thoughtful Today: Ah, we need to respect your sincerely held religious beliefs, is it, then?
Iowa Old Lady
Re O’Malley as VP. Why? I’m to the point that when I see a white man politician, that man needs to have some extra quality to make me consider him. Plenty do. Sanders does.
Calouste
@? Martin: “An armed society is a polite society” really stands for “An armed society is a society where those goddamn n1@@ers know their place”.
catclub
@CONGRATULATIONS!: I am with this one. Germy could always tell them not to do it and have no water while they do the repairs. How long are the repairs? Years? decades?
Cacti
@Uncle Cosmo:
So, how do you feel about his first time?
catclub
@Germy Shoemangler: You could minimize the risk by turning off the valve at the outside tap, except when you are using water. I would not worry (but it is not my house).
amk
@Thoughtful Today:
pretty much what the kenyan has been saying since 2007, isn’t it? And yet you seem eager to paint him as a total failure. How is that a smart strategy in a dem primary, or even in GE?
Brachiator
@? Martin:
This is kinda interesting. The Hillary bashing has been heating up on one of the local radio stations here, even digging out an old nemesis, Ed Klein, but most of this has been a rehash of old BS. Hillary is untrustworthy, she is shifty, she is a cynical political hack, she is a bad wife and enabler of adultery, she has been a poor senator and secretary of state, she is unkind to staffers and terrorizes people. Blah, blah, blah.
But no one accuses her of being weak and fragile because she is a mere woman. I don’t know if the GOP realizes that they have practically inoculated Hillary against some of the BS that a woman running for president might face with respect to having enough gonads to be commander-in-chief.
Another talk radio host, though, tossed off a line that he didn’t know any men who would vote for Clinton, ’cause you know, you can’t be a real man if you vote for a woman.
Another Holocene Human
@Sherparick: The things Ben Shapiro doesn’t understand could fill volumes.
fedupwithhypocrisy
@Elie:
He’s no Sarah Palin, if that’s what you mean. He was mayor of a large city. He has restored some integrity to HUD, and he’s passionate about the housing crisis, which I would like to see get more attention in the campaign and a future Dem. administration. Your point about ready on day one is fair, but I have no doubts about him growing into the role of successor as V.P. Latinos believe that Dems talk the talk, but don’t always walk the walk–a Latino V.P. candidate would inspire like no other.
celticdragonchick
@catclub:
That kind of work typically takes a couple of months unless they are really rushing things. Lot of surveying involved, tearing out the street and sometimes yards, something usually goes wrong, you have to measure and survey the as-builts and send that info in to make sure the work is kosher and then you can finally fill it all in and repave.
Citizen Alan
@Linnaeus:
In her defense, it’s valid to note that the Scandinavian countries are none of them the global center of capitalist power with an incredibly diverse population of 310 million and a national history of being fervently anti-communist. It is taken as an article of faith within the Right that the prevalence of Socialism in those nations is the reason why the suicide rate is comparatively high (I guess because seasonal affective disorder must be junk science or something).
Another Holocene Human
@Calouste: It’s worse than that. Evangelicals see conversion not as an intellectual “turning” but as a conscious choice. The only “turn” is away from “sin”, the sin being refusing to say the magic words. Now that they’ve said the magic words, they’re of the elect.
They entirely distrust learning and intellectual growth. Even when they give “testimony” that they were “atheists” you find they were raised in Christian households and subjected to Christian religious instruction as children.
Another Holocene Human
@celticdragonchick: His other shtick is to make cruel, inflammatory statements towards various oppressed and minority groups he does not belong to.
He also does a sideline in horrible statements about the Holocaust and/or Israel, drawing around his “I’m a Jew and liberal Jews aren’t real Jews so there” skirts when called on his shit.
Another Holocene Human
@themann1086: I’m chortling in glee already. Fight! Fight! Hard to describe how much I loathe both of them.
celticdragonchick
@fedupwithhypocrisy: His Robert Mugebe solution to drug dealing will keep coming back to bite him in the ass.
A Daily Beast interview with the director of The Wire was amazing: Set employees were actually being swept up in mass raids and being hauled off to jail on their way home from shooting a scene. Literally every person that was found outside or sitting on their front stoop in a designated raid area was subject to immediate arrest.
When the Baltimore riots went down last spring, that was specifically mentioned by one older African American man when he said people in other communities are allowed to sit on their own porch but not in his neighborhood. So many people were coming in for no charge at all that the local DA was giving people the option of going home immediately with no charge if the just signed a promise to not sue for civil rights violations (which is a real high bar to clear in Maryland and which also set a strict cap on damages against municipalities)
Elie
@Cervantes:
I don’t want to nit pick but everyone has an approach to how they are going to answer questions as a candidate. Bernie focused on bringing most questions back to the topic of income distribution and financial unfairness. There was little that he emphasized on say, foreign policy or even any of the successes on health care. Add to that, most of his replies were delivered in an argumentative style that I certainly recognize as a style, but I don’t think it is as effective in bringing new converts to your side. One of Bernie’s main goals last night (if he is seriously wanting to be President), was to begin to cement the base to his views. He left that on the table making little effort to convince Obama’s base that he acknowledged anything successful from these years that he could build on. His tone — his attitude and body language was argumentative and uniformly aggrieved. Can you point to one good thing he had to say either about successful administration policies or this country? How do you solve the nature of the problems we have from just the negative?
As for Denmark, ok whatever. Seems like he could have made a comparison to some successful programs or policies in this country at some point, even if we accept his Denmark example on its face. He had, as I said, limited good things to say about where we are and where we are going. A leader has to love his own first, his home. How do you trust someone who doesn’t seem to be able to say what is worth saving about YOU?
Germy Shoemangler
@catclub: They say it will be three weeks (which I assume means six to eight weeks, if not more).
It’s a good thing they’re replacing the water main. There are some cities that just wait for the things to fail, and then act. So that’s good.
But they had all summer. This repair will go into December, if not later.
gene108
@Uncle Cosmo:
O’Malley’s Achilles heel is, from the friends and family I know in Baltimore and Maryland, that they would not vote for him ahead of Hillary or Bernie.
From my acquaintances, they paint a picture of a politician doing things to look good for the next office, even if long term consequences, such as budget short falls or pension short falls or bad police policy, result.
There are cracks in his reputation for his administration of Baltimore, while mayor, which have come to light recently, with regards to police treatment of people in Baltimore.
If you are not a lock to win your own state, in a primary, you will have problems to become a strong candidate and that is O’Malley’s biggest problem right now; he has lost his home base.
He’s not terrible.
He’s adequate but not superb.
Elie
@fedupwithhypocrisy:
As I said, I can be convinced and would be open to being convinced..
Paul in KY
@celticdragonchick: That’ll work too!
Cervantes
@Another Holocene Human:
Someone provided details re a candidate’s (purported) “exceptional breadth of interests and issues.”
What do that someone’s beliefs have to do with it?
SiubhanDuinne
@Brachiator:
Have to wonder who his VP choice was in 2008.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Calouste:
The funny part with that, of course, is that the Bible has changed many times in the past 2,000 years. The “true” version that most RTCs read is only 400 years old. The Christian Bible is only eternal and unvhanging in the minds of people who find it convenient to believe that.
Germy Shoemangler
I once played the “Denmark Card” during an unfortunate conversation with a RWNJ. I was all “They do this in Denmark and that in Switzerland; why can’t we” etc., and his reply was (if you understood the dogwhistle beneath his polite euphemisms) “But those countries aren’t full of violent and lazy [insert various minorities]”
Paul in KY
@themann1086: I would say Chait in a TKO in the 7th.
Another Holocene Human
@chopper: There’s another factor, and that is empire. Seems like social welfare is tough to do when you’re paranoid, aggressive, and spending like the mad on a war machine. Both France and Britain have their history with this as well.
Brachiator
@SiubhanDuinne:
To be fair, this particular host said many, many times that Palin was an idiot. He might not have voted for president in 2008.
Thoughtful Today
@amk:
I love the ‘edit’ feature but still sometimes miss the opportunity to correct myself,
Bernie’s not one to complain about the media, though.Bernie’s not one to complain about the media treating him unfairly.* At least never in the decade that I’ve been listening to him.
He’s been trash talking corporate media for being sensualistic and shallow that whole time, though. And his knocking Anderson Cooper for pimping the Republican’s bullshit was dead on.
* By my measure, the corporate media rarely ever treat anyone on the left with the same respect they treat those on the right going back … for decades.
Cervantes
@Elie:
Can you actually show me in the transcript where he did this?
Well, speaking for myself, the last thing I need is for Bernie Sanders or any candidate to tell me why (or that) I am “worth saving.” I suppose others might have such needs. Maybe he’ll address them.
I’m more interested in the candidates’ diagnoses of our shared problems and the merits of their prescriptions.
Calouste
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): I assume that their argument is that the Bible has been unchanged for 2000 years, it just never had been translated right, into God’s own language of English instead of that heathen Latin.
chopper
@Germy Shoemangler:
the answer to your question (‘why can’t we’) isn’t in his answer, it’s in the fact that a currently-unsurmountable number of american voters either believe the same or are at least sympathetic enough to it that they balk at the idea of paying for it.
the fact that we’re a nation of cheap bastards doesn’t help at all either.
Thoughtful Today
@Amir Khalid:
Social Security.
Medicare.
Public K-12 schools.
Public roads.
Public post offices.
There’s a continuuum of public opinion about those realities, but so far they’ve held up. I’d like to see them improved and expanded. You can guess who I think is best for that job.
Republicans, on the other hand, would be happy to sell them to your nation for a cheap, quick profit and then pretend that those social services never existed.
Brachiator
@Germy Shoemangler:
Of course, Denmark and the other Nordic countries used to be filled with violent Vikings.
David Koch
yup. Robert Costa was pushin that everywhere he could last night. pathetic.
Calouste
@Another Holocene Human: One of history’s little ironies is that one of the major causes of the French Revolution was the massive debt of the French state, about 30% of which was accumulated during the American Revolutionary War.
Elie
@Cervantes:
Listen, this is not an exam where there is only one set of “right” answers. It is a socio-cultura-political job interview that encompasses hard facts and knowledge as well as a lot of squishy emotional tones that shape perceptions of who a person is and what kind of leader they would make. Its subjective by definition. I let you and others know my opinion of the debate overall and on my opinions about Bernie’s views and performance. You can take it or leave it but I would think that it is important for a serious candidate to hear where he/she can improve their message and its delivery. Wanting him to be successful, I would think you would be open to what I said — particularly as it related to his lack of connection to the Obama success story. No matter how you do the arithmetic, the Obama base has to be part of his calculation for victory. There is nowhere else to get those numbers – certainly not among the white racists in the Republican Party.
Its not just about you — or ME for that matter. Bernie has areas where I think he can improve his message to be more effective for his candidacy and the party. Totally up to him.
Paul in KY
@Calouste: Not funny at all, but back in early 15th century, people who were called ‘Lollards’ were executed in gruesome manners for (among other things) translating the bible from Latin into English. Henry V was a big persecutor of Lollards.
Linnaeus
@chopper:
That is an important difference, but I think that exchange went a little beyond that. It’s definitely the case that, in general, Clinton is positioning herself as the more pragmatic candidate vis-a-vis Sanders, which is the smart move for her. But her comment in that moment didn’t make any arguments about pragmatism; she didn’t say something like, “that’s all well and good, Bernie, but we have specific challenges here in the US, etc. etc.” She instead articulated a general view of capitalism and suggested that Sanders wanted to get away from that, which would be a bad thing. That suggests to me something a little more than a difference over idealism vs. pragmatism.
Sure, it’s true that the social and cultural history of the US, as well as the structure of its political system, indicates that it would be difficult to implement the kinds of policies and programs that Sanders favors. But I also think that it’s valuable for a Democrat in particular to articulate without apology that the kinds of social programs that we see in other developed countries are 1) good things and 2) doable, which the Democratic Party has not always been great at doing. Which is what I think is Sanders’s real value in this race. I know this is by now a rather banal observation, but I think it still has merit. Sanders is forcing a conversation about the kind of country we want that is compelling candidates like Clinton to respond substantively. Pragmatism is well and good, but it needs a robust vision to sustain it. They’re complementary values.
David Koch
My favorite is the panic over at DKos.
They’re running around like headless chickens trying to spin what they never expected: a Clinton victory.
You’d think a self described “reality” based community would have accounted for the possibility that a valedictorian and accomplished attorney could possibly win a debate.
Germy Shoemangler
@Brachiator: The subtext of the RWNJ’s argument was “n*****s ruin everything. If we build nice trains, they’ll piss all over them, graffiti them, and terrorize the ‘decent’ folk. If we had gun laws like Australia, they’d prey on our unarmed asses. If we provided universal healthcare, they’d flood the waiting rooms with their endless offspring…” etc. etc.
He based his whole political (and life) philosophy on hating minorities. I learned to stop taking the bait when he wanted to have discussions, for the sake of my blood pressure.
Sad thing is, he could turn on his radio and hear professional-sounding people agreeing with everything in his head.
Thoughtful Today
@Cervantes:
I officially dub thee my new word of the day: irenic
Cervantes
@Elie:
Opinions are fabulous, and then they can be justified — or not.
For example, you said “Bernie focused on bringing most questions back to the topic of income distribution and financial unfairness.” Asked to show where he did this, even once, you decided not to, because “Listen, this is not an exam.”
That’s fabulous!
I’d agree with that, not least because it’s true for all candidates in every election.
Uncle Cosmo
@Iowa Old Lady: Have you met Martin yet? I presume not. If you’re a Democrat in Iowa, you’ll probably have the chance to do so with minimal inconvenience fairly soon. I suggest you seize the opportunity & size him up in person.
Brachiator
@Calouste:
The argument of many is that the deity’s word is magical and comes through loud and clear despite any particular translation. The Bible comes with its own built-in Universal Translator.
To be fair, there are evangelicals who try to learn the ancient languages that comprise biblical texts.
Elie
@Cervantes:
How about that!
chopper
@Linnaeus:
she said we’re not denmark, this is the united states of america. i guess that short quip can be taken however you want it, but i took it as a very general way of saying what you have in quotes.
YMMV.
Iowa Old Lady
@Uncle Cosmo: At the moment, I’m fighting off invitations to meet Ben Carson on Saturday. I’m a registered Democrat, idiots! Why are you wasting your time on me?
gene108
@Elie:
This is the attitude of a lot of liberals though.
They seem to think, if we’d only become like Denmark or Sweden we’d be better, without looking at the good sides of America.
Especially with regards to assimilating immigrants, for example.
Cervantes
@gene108:
I can’t address what your “lot of liberals seem to think,” but what Sanders actually said last night was not that we should “become like” those countries but that we should “learn from what they have accomplished for their working people.”
Reasonable people can disagree — perhaps you do?
Thoughtful Today
@Cervantes: Hmm. Good point.
Cervantes
@Germy Shoemangler:
Sweden is 20% “minority.”
Maybe you could play the “Sweden Card” next time!
jl
One problem with the debates is the crummy moderation by the media organizations.
Will the debate format and topics be coordinated or not?
After this introductory debate, will there be a debates on social policy, on domestic economic policy, on foreign policy and national security, trade policy, etc.
Or will there just be a re-run of this, skipping randomly from topic to topic, with lots of BS questions more dictated by media narrative and meme preferences than anything else.
Anyone know?
Elie
@gene108:
Yes. Believe me my husband and I have had heated discussions of what I term his “idealization” of the European standard. They are not comparable enough to us for practical use, though we can certainly adapt some of their ideas. We have a huge, very diverse, non homogenous, at time fractious culture. It is very very hard to get anything done for the common good. That is why our change is necessarily difficult and at best, incremental. We absolutely NEED inspiration, not just based on an accurate description of what we should be, but gosh, look what we have done that we can make better and here is how.
This other complaint I have is more subtle. As a black person, I am so sick of hearing about these homogenous white countries that can do so many cool things for their all the same people. It completely ignores our un-ignorable facts on the ground here. We can’t count on “good will” and what “should be” alone to make progress. We know full well that any little change that helps black people here has to be fought for not only once, but for eternity, as the problems with the voting rights act attest. We can never rest. That said, we must have continuous positive inspiration to continue to join these battles effectively. We have to make that feeling of love for each other to have the courage to move forward.
Cervantes
@Elie:
Hey, when you’re right, you’re right.
John M. Burt
@BGinCHI: Obama State University is the largest university in the state of Obama, which is one of the two states formed by the division of Illinois into Obama and Lincoln.
This was around the time that New York was divided into Hudson and New Amsterdam, Florida into Seminole and Osceola, Texas into Alamo and Bexar and California into Jefferson / El Dorado / Aztlan.
Linnaeus
@chopper:
I took it differently, but of course reasonable people can have different interpretations. To me, in the context of what else she said at that moment, it sounded to me like, “this is America, and we do things the (capitalist) American way.” It rubbed me the wrong way, because I don’t think Sanders suggested anything especially radical, but as you say, YMMV.
chopper
@Cervantes:
but how many of that 20% comprise the ‘dusky hued’ to which germy’s RWNJ was likely referring?
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Calouste:
As Paul in KY said, translating the Bible into the language that ordinary people could actually read was one of the biggest controversies of the Reformation, with the Catholic Church strongly on the “Latin Only, Kill Translating Heretics” side.
Given the insanity of various people and sects since then who have convinced themselves that their personal interpretation is the One True Way, the RCC is looking a little more right, though overzealous in defending their position to say the least.
Paul in KY
@John M. Burt: Unless they divide Idaho, Alabama, and Utah in 2, this beautiful fantasy of yours (6 more Democratic Senators) will never happen.
Main reason DC & Puerto Rico will never become states is that Republicans consider that just adding 4 Democratic Senators.
Cervantes
@Linnaeus:
In particular:
What this ignores is (among other things) the current state of “the greatest middle class in history,” plus the fact that no one, and especially not Sanders, is proposing that we should “turn our backs” on it.
In other words, a cheap shot.
Brachiator
@Germy Shoemangler:
Not much to be done when the person you are talking with insists on confirming his bigotry.
You could have some fun with “why do you hate Ben Carson?”
Elie
@Cervantes:
Since you were handing me some homework to “support my opinions” so to speak above:
For your convenience, I have attached the transcript for the debate. Take some time and read Bernie’s replies and compare them to the language in Hillary’s. Also, please see where you can find ANY references to successes from the current administration, or anything specifically positive about Obama beyond that “he has worked with” him.
chopper
@Linnaeus:
hey man, this is the internet.
gene108
@Cervantes:
How many of those minorities are Swedish citizens or can become Swedish citizens?
The biggest difference between Europe and the USA, with regards to minority populations is European countries do not let people become citizens* as readily as the USA, whether through naturalization or birthright citizenship.
When you are dealing with minorities in the USA, you are more often than not dealing with people who are officially American.
I think this is an important distinction.
The notion a kid is Swedish because he’s born in Sweden, even though his parents are not citizens, does not exist.
* The citizenship process is not too hard, if you are a permanent resident. Becoming a permanent resident, on the other hand, has become a grind because Congress refuses to address the bottlenecks in the system for people waiting and waiting to get their Green Cards.
gene108
@Cervantes:
Yeah, I disagree.
I think we’ve diverged so far from Europe, with regards to “what’s done for working people” that we need unique solutions.
Jeffro
@David Koch:
I haven’t been over there in years. Might have to see this, just for a change of pace…
Cervantes
@Elie:
Thanks!
I’m curious to see if it’s a different transcript from the one I provided to you above.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Which is additionally crazy since the Vulgate was a translation from Hebrew, etc.
Hey everybody, go watch a little “Wolf Hall,” which touches on the translation controversy a little bit.
Cervantes
@gene108:
OK, so what’s inapplicable (or worse) about the solutions they have found?
Would seem to be a relevant question, yes?
Elie
@Cervantes:
Sorry — I missed that you attached one. I used the NYT version which is hopefully the same.
Linnaeus
@Elie:
I get that, and I do agree that sometimes people can be a bit too glib about the possibilities for achieving social and economic reform in the current American political and social context. But we should also remember that the social democratic model (for lack of a better term) even in places like Europe came after decades of social conflict, economic shifts, political upheaval (violent and nonviolent), and incredibly destructive warfare. We have our own set of challenges to overcome, to be sure, and that won’t be easy as we all well know. But I don’t want to see an honest acknowledgment of those challenges turn into a kind of fatalism that masquerades as pragmatism, i.e., “well, we’ll never achieve that, so it’s folly to even talk about it.” I don’t think most people here have that attitude, but I’ve seen it elsewhere and I think it’s ultimately counterproductive.
If we want to talk about things in more “American” terms, then I think programs like Social Security and Medicare are great places to start. They’re both popular and well-established into the fabric of the American safety net, despite Republican attempts to undermine them.
Paul in KY
@Brachiator: When I read about that in a biography of Henry V, I was very sad for those poor victims, as there are 400 million or more English copies of the bible now.
Cervantes
@Elie:
About this:
He did say that he has “a lot of respect for President Obama.” He also mentioned some instances where he has supported Obama’s policies (in Afghanistan and Syria, for example).
Other than that, I think my earlier responses cover it.
Thanks.
jl
@gene108: Sweden has taken in a large number of refugees, and from some places not only relative to its size but in absolute numbers, from Middle East and Africa. You can see signs of that as soon as you walk down a street in a large city.
And ‘homogeneous’ is relative. Ask a member of the Danish community in south Sweden how homogeneous they feel with majority Swedes. Or one of the Finnish community, or Estonian community. We can call it silly, but many there think our obsession with mere race, as opposed to ethnicity and culture per se, is silly.
Switzerland, which by our standards is social democratic, has three ethnic groups and four languages. How homogeneous is that? We may think French, Swiss-German and Italian are all more or less the same things, but they do not.
Saying that other countries are small and more homogeneous is a thoughtless boilerplate used to dismiss ideas. And it was one of two or three things HRC said last night that really irritated me.
Thoughtful Today
I’m a huge fan of an Amendment to make D.C. a state, it’s population deserves it.
jl
@Elie: I can understand your view point. But ethnic and cultural homogeneity is relative. What looks very homogeneous to us here often does not seem homogeneous from the view point of the population of Sweden or Belgium, or Taiwan.
So, as I said above, I don’t like using boilerplate phrases that are often very inaccurate and misleading unless looked at case by case to dismiss the idea of learning from other countries’ experiences.
Thoughtful Today
@Elie:
“… where you can find ANY references to successes from the current administration… “
Did you watch the Larry Willmore show the other night specifically addressing whether Barack has done enough for Blacks? It’s worth watching.
I’ve mentioned once today that I literally paused the show to screen capture Larry’s graphic showing the insanely high poverty, unemployment, and incarceration is for blacks and how it’s barely changed in the last twenty years, 1995-2015, years that include both the second Clinton administration as well as the seven years of the Obama administration.
I hear your love for Barack, I don’t share it. But I’d still be more than happy to vote a third time for him if he was a General Election candidate next year.
Cervantes
@Linnaeus:
As FDR said when trying to get Social Security passed:
Turgidson
@Kay:
It’s this kind of bullshit that makes me hate Tapper so much. He thinks he’s the next Murrow when he goes after nontroversies like this, or famously, whether Obama snuck a cigarette at some point. But he’s your typical “Opinions differ on shape of Earth” hack when it comes to actually covering news and substance and the differences between the parties, and he doubtless thinks real voters care about the emails because everyone HE knows and socializes (ie fellow Villager morons) thinks it’s the biggest story since Caesar crossed the Rubicon.
Elie
@Linnaeus:
Good points well taken — again. Particularly:
.
Yes, that is a danger. But that was why I emphasize the need for inspiration and vision building on any successes as so important. Otherwise, having the gold standard just becomes a place we can never reach.
Speaking just for myself as a black person (and other black people might have different views), I start to feel defensive that “well we will never be able to have nice things, because you know, you black people and your various weaknesses and limitations make it impossible. ” It would be great to hear how having so many black and brown people was an asset that made this country better and stronger — a country that Europeans could take a lesson or two from! Not, oh we know you guys can’t do that cause you know, the black handicap you have”
chopper
@jl:
but that’s the point. the country is, by far, majority swedish.
likewise the social safety net and education policies in sweden didn’t arrive last year. they were implemented some time back when sweden was even more ethnically swedish.
the overarching point is that these places have a totally different cultural history than we do. it’s one thing to point at them and say ‘hey, that’s a great system’ but getting there is currently nigh-on impossible with our society the way it is.
Linnaeus
@Cervantes:
That’s a good anecdote. Social Security is a really interesting case of a program that established a political vision despite the fact that there were constraints on its scope at the time, which had to be overcome later.
Elie
@chopper:
Yep. well said
Elie
@Thoughtful Today:
Honestly.
You went looking for an example of a lack of progress during the Obama years (he couldn’t reverse the rate of black injustice and incarceration in 8 years – FAIL!)
So… nothing.. else.. huh. He sat in the Oval Office for now 6 1/2 years and not one thing is better that you can point to.
Gee thanks, I guess on you would vote for him if he was the nominee.
Betty Cracker
@Thoughtful Today:
I hear that you hear Elie’s love for PBO and don’t share it. I thought Bernie did well last night, but one of the reasons I think Hillary won the debate is that she GETS Elie’s love for PBO (and the millions who DO share it) and gave that some respect.
Call it pandering, call it smart politics or whatever. But PBO’s presidency is important and special to millions of people — the core of the Democratic Party, in fact. I’m not saying all black people or even all black Democrats feel that way, but it seems a substantial number do, as well as many white folks who are very sensitive to any criticism or perceived lack of respect shown to PBO (some of whom jump down my throat on this blog if I ever criticize PBO, even mildly).
I don’t totally get it myself, but it seems to be real, and Democrats who ignore it do so at their peril, I think. Luckily for Clinton, it didn’t cost her anything because PBO really has been a good president, remains incredibly popular with Democrats and she was part of his administration, so it makes sense that she would align herself with him.
It’s not Bernie’s job to fluff PBO, of course, but if he wants to win the primary, it wouldn’t hurt to acknowledge PBO’s achievements. I kind of respect that he (Bernie) doesn’t think that way, but that may be a case where authenticity and a focus on issues not politics does him no favors.
Linnaeus
@Elie:
I don’t blame you one bit – the nation’s ethnic and racial diversity should be an asset as you say. Even though our nation’s history in dealing with that has been decidedly mixed (and I’m being overly generous there), it shouldn’t be a reason why we can’t find ways to do better for our nation’s people in all respects.
jl
@chopper:
” but that’s the point. the country is, by far, majority swedish.”
Well, if we translate that to the famous divide here in US, the vast majority of the US is white.
Foreign born population of Sweden is about 14 percent which is greater than in US.
Swedish social welfare state began with a lot of civil violence and dislocation (similar to US during Great Depression and labor violence of late 19th and early 20th centuries) and attempts to emerge from dire poverty, they were not always pampered wealthy social welfare children.
Switzerland has roughly 2.3 Swiss-German, 1/5 French and rest Italian ethnicity. And their insurance industry fought their health care reforms ferociously, and they had to be forced through incrementally, much like has happened in the US. They started sooner with more comprehensive initial reform than US and earlier, and so they now have a much better mostly private provider mixed public and private insurance system than we do.
Taiwan is split into 3 contentious groups of native Taiwanese old Chinise immigrants from 17th through 19th century, and Chinese refugees from communist revolution.
As another example, about 10 percent of New Zealand population is native Maori (much larger than US native American population), and about 10 percent is foreign born, roughly same as US.
It is easy to sit here in the US and just say ‘oh, all those other countries are so homogeneous and everyone gets along so everything is easier’. But facts do not usually bear it out.
Elie
@Betty Cracker:
This- simply -this
The arithmetic, (and it is simple arithmetic) for a successful Bernie candidacy requires that he consolidate the base, which, right now, strongly supports Obama. There is no where else to get those numbers. Its called “political reality”. I would add, I found Bernie and many of his supporters to be tone deaf and arrogant to what their candidate needs to do to raise his game. Raising his game means he will have more and more influence, not less.
Cervantes
@Betty Cracker:
Clinton used Obama to sanitize her appalling lack of judgment re the invasion of Iraq. “He likes me, and he’s a cool kid, so what’s your problem?” she might as well have asked. That was less pandering and more “smart politics,” I suppose — or maybe it was sheer cowardice?
Plus to some extent the questions drove her to praise Obama for the simple and obvious reason that she was part of his Administration and complicit in his decisions. Self-serving more than pandering or “smart politics”?
Elie
@Cervantes:
There is of course, no chance that she could have been sincere in her respect for him. Yes, she was part of his administration and helped develop and support its decisions. Your use of the word “complicit” sounds as though there was some malfeasance or criminality involved. This is exactly what I mean about the arrogance and tone deafness of some of the individual Berneyites.
I tell you what, at least Hillary can do basic arithmetic. What is it you guys are trying to prove and why are you trying to prove it?
Betty Cracker
@Cervantes: Chafee was trying to hang the AUMF vote from a decade and a half ago around Clinton’s neck. It wasn’t a dumb strategy; it worked for Obama, whose successful approach to dispatching Clinton was what Chafee was attempting to emulate. But Chafee’s implication — she fucked up then, so you can’t trust her now! — is factually refuted by the trust Obama subsequently placed in Clinton. Maybe it was self-serving for Clinton to point that out (though duh, it’s a primary debate), but I don’t see how that’s cowardly.
chopper
@jl:
in sweden, the vast majority of people are ethnically swedish. it’s a pretty solid culture. ‘white’ in america includes a whole bunch of different groups.
it’s certainly easier to pass or improve social programs when most people in your country look like you and talk like you, isn’t it?
i think the swiss example is good. it’s a pretty diverse country, ethnically speaking. and the social safety net example you gave was a long, hard slog in getting implemented. that’s how things have to happen here in america. pointing to places like denmark that have a nice system and saying ‘let’s have some o’ that’ is one thing, but it’s gonna take a loooooong period of infuriatingly slow, incremental change to make anything close to that happen here. i’d like it if politicians would admit that and show more interest in coughing up those sort of long-term plans, but generic talk of ‘revolution’ is certainly a lot easier.
Cervantes
@Betty Cracker:
After that election campaign, Obama had several and obvious reasons for bringing Clinton into the tent. I can tell you with certainty that trusting appreciation of her AUMF vote was not one of them.
And what was cowardly of Clinton last night was to yet again not take full responsibility for that vote (never mind apologize for it) — and to hide behind Obama’s skirts instead.
And sure, self-serving is par for the course in these “debates,” but I want a bit more than that, from all the candidates. (There was one apparently not-self-serving act in yesterday’s debate, but it wasn’t anything Clinton did.)
Anyhow, thanks. I’m out.
Thoughtful Today
@Elie:
No, I didn’t go “looking for an example of a lack of [racial] progress during the Obama years (he couldn’t reverse the rate of black injustice and incarceration in 8 years – FAIL!)”
I watched it on the Willmore show YESTERDAY:
“The Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore – Panel: Barack Obama and Racial Progress in America. Mike Yard, James Davis and Jeezy discuss a controversial article about Barack Obama’s legacy as America’s first black president.”
Again: The graphic Willmore showed was of the TWENTY year period that included the CLINTON administration’s FAILURE to budge the dial on over-incarceration, poverty, and unemployment of African Americans.
Elie
@Thoughtful Today:
But why did you select that example?
Thoughtful Today
@Betty Cracker:
Sigh … and if you’re as steeped in politics as I am you’d be correct to suspect I’m choking over names like Gates, Bernanke, Geithner, Sumners, Duncan, Emmanuel, Alexander, Petraeus, and Sunstein.
Bobby Thomson
@Calouste: and the American Revolution was caused by Britain’s massive debt, which was caused by the French and Indian War.
Thoughtful Today
@Elie:
Because, again, I literally just watched that Willmore episode last night (I hope I linked to the correct segment, the whole thing was good, iirc, the same ep. had Willmore interviewing Nancy Pelosi).
If you’d caught me 6 1/2 years ago it would have been a whole different set of complaints. None of which deterred my assertive support for Barack’s re-election in 2012.
Cervantes
@Elie:
Did I say that?
There well may be malfeasance or criminality involved — but that’s not what I meant. To keep it short, let’s just agree that I should have used the word “involved” instead.
You make far too many unjustified assumptions. In this election cycle, at the presidential level, I have supported a number of candidates so far and, so far, more or less equally. (In the two previous cycles I supported one candidate only.)
Instead of addressing your question, I’ll just say that there are different ways of looking at politics and you and I have not settled on the same one.
I’m off. Have a good evening.
Betty Cracker
@Cervantes: Chafee used the AUMF vote as proof that you can’t trust Clinton on foreign policy to this very day, and Clinton pointed out that Obama obviously disagreed because he put her in charge of the State Department. Of course Obama had many reasons for bringing her into the admin, but that he did so is a pretty powerful refutation of Chafee’s point, at least to Democrats who trust Obama’s judgment, which is most of them.
Clinton has said her Iraq War vote was a “mistake” and that she “got it wrong.” She’s right about that — it was a colossal fuck-up, and it cost her my vote in 2008 and millions of others’ (I suspect). I’m not sure what you’re waiting for her to say.
Karen
Since the GOP wants to win so bad, they’re probably Nadering and paying Bernie thousands of bucks to split off Clinton’s votes.
And speaking of Nader: Bernie Sanders will never be President. He might win the primary but I doubt it. Dems will vote for him but in the general he needs more than that. No 74 year old Jewish socialist will ever win in the United States of Christendom.
Those that want to “send a message” I have words for them.
Every woman who could not get an abortion and died as a result? Her blood is on your hands, Because if you didn’t vote in 2010 or 2014, the GOPper that did get elected and they instantly cut Planned Parenthood’s funding, even before the edited videos came out.
Thank You!
I understand that your “message” to the Dems is more important than voting for a President, Senator Congressperson or any other candidate that can stop more funds like Medicaid from being cut, Medicaid doesn’t affect you. That message is so much more important, who cares about public education being stripped and the cuts to disability doesn’t count for you.
Understand. Every vote matters. I’m not in love with Clinton. But I know that she can win the Presidency. I know that the GOP will ruin the Supreme Court even more, I know that gay marriage will be gone. I hope you think about this when you decide whether or not to vote.
Thoughtful Today
“malfeasance or criminality”
You don’t want to go there.
But if you want to, try spending an hour looking through the Abu Ghraib photos and then find when I’m posting here and we’ll talk.
Betty Cracker
@Thoughtful Today: If your point is that Obama screwed up sometimes and surrounded himself with crappy advisers, I wholeheartedly agree. I think economics especially has been the weakest part of his presidency. But he’s been a damn good president, certainly the best since I’ve been on the planet (though admittedly the bar is low there).
It’s right and expected for Democrats who are hoping to take on the job after PBO’s term to set their own course, explain where they differ and address the many distressing problems we still face. But it’s good politics, if nothing else, to acknowledge what PBO has accomplished.
Elie
@Thoughtful Today:
Uh — Abu Graib was not under Obama.. that was George Bush during the Iraq War. What is it exactly? How does it relate to Obama and then to Hillary? You are being indirect and slimmy, implying but never answering MY questions to you: What is your angle and why are you selecting these odd ball examples — like Abu Graib and the veiled inferences.
Nevermind. I think you are full of BS.
Done talking to you
Cervantes
@Betty Cracker:
No, it’s not a powerful refutation at all — because he may have appointed her despite not completely trusting her judgment.
After all, if we take her pronouncements seriously, and we should, we have evidence that he kept her on a short leash at State: witness her new candor about the “gold standard” TPP, for example, which she praised then but now apparently opposes.
Almost anything else conceivable would have been better than the stunt she pulled last night. Given the cost in human lives and misery, a bill we’re still running up and paying today, I am continually disgusted by cavalier attitudes towards that “mistake.”
Seanly
@Calouste:
Well, I take the Bible to be a big pile of mythology (and according to a new theory, Roman slave control).
Also, I see that I may have gotten incorrect info about O’Malley’s views on abortion. Thank you to the poster that corrected me! Verification of sorts @ this site
Thoughtful Today
@Elie:
War crimes committed by the Bush Administration went un-prosecuted, I sincerely believe that failure has been a direct part of the social disease that has allowed a very tiny minority of very bad cops to think it’s okay to murder and torture American Citizens.
Brachiator
@Paul in KY:
The extremes of controversies over religion sometimes result in outrages (a situation that still exists, sadly).
Sir John Oldcastle, the model for Falstaff and friend to Prince Hal (later Henry V) was a Lollard who rebelled against Henry IV and was later executed.
Later, in the time of Henry VIII, William Tyndale was convicted of heresy, executed and had his body burnt at the stake. His English translation of the Bible is the foundation of the King James Version.
chopper
@Betty Cracker:
exactly. obama’s not the sort of guy who would hand the keys to the state department over to someone in whom he doesn’t place a great deal of trust, at least enough to render moot chafee’s line of argument.
Betty Cracker
@chopper: Well, that seems kinda obvious to me too. But maybe PBO elevated HRC to one of the most prominent posts on the entire planet just so he could keep an eye on the shifty she-beast!
Thoughtful Today
Chafee was being a clumsily impolitic ass.
I recognize the irony of my saying that.
Bill Arnold
@Linnaeus:
I heard it as trying to say that her approach to regulation of American capitalism differs from Bernie Sander’s approach, but not knowing full details of the approaches of any of the (Dem) candidates, it was ignorable. Maybe partially a cheap shot against “the socialist”, but maybe not. She did acknowledge at one point that she represented Wall Street as a Senator.
The only bit from HC that really bothered me was her statement about how Snowden could have effectively blown whistles. That was either deluded or BS. He arguably should have tried harder but his odds of success were pretty close to zero.
Cervantes
@Bill Arnold:
Yes, that was either dishonest or (incredibly, therefore not) ignorant.
Original Lee
@Iowa Old Lady: Do you remember which editor? Gannet has them split up a bit. Maybe it was the editorial page editor?
Brachiator
@Thoughtful Today:
Who were you going to get to prosecute Bush (or any American president) for war crimes?
And since Bush did not act without approval of the Congress, are you going to prosecute members of Congress for war crimes as well?
Cervantes
@Betty Cracker:
If that is what you meant when you said the following:
Then I give up.
Cervantes
@Brachiator:
Hillary Clinton being one example?
chopper
@Betty Cracker:
at least he trusts her just a little bit, otherwise he would have made her vice president.
Betty Cracker
@Cervantes: Feeble attempt at sarcastic humor. I thought “shifty she-beast” would have made that clear, but the Internet remains a never-ending Poe’s Law workshop.
Cervantes
@Betty Cracker:
I saw it but, to me, that vote and her subsequent trajectory are not yet subjects fit for chortles and guffaws.
Call me a stick in the mud, or worse. I really won’t mind.
Cervantes
@celticdragonchick:
Did not see the exchange and am not au courant with the exploits of Monsignor Shapiro but I have to ask: Whatever happened to “Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me”?
(I know, you’re going to tell me it was never a good approach to begin with.)
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@Another Holocene Human: I heard the same from a close friend who was on his staff. But…VP is a totally different gig. Maybe his wife would be OK with that.
Ruckus
@Germy Shoemangler:
The water main supplies water under pressure. Water under pressure does not care where it enters the system(your house). And it will just be there until you open a faucet or flush the toilet. Just like it is now. You may not have the same volume of water available but the pressure will most likely be the same as now as the city will probably just be installing a temporary line up stream from the repair site and running that to each house, using the water faucet rather than the normal underground pipe. You may not even notice much difference at all.
J R in WV
@Germy Shoemangler:
Well, yo can buy a bigger hose if you’re really concerned. What may drop is quantity delivered per minute, if the hose is really much smaller than you existing incoming pipe, but pressure shouldn’t be very different.
When we installed a new tap to the newly installed water main 800 feet away, the standard copper supply was 3/4 inches thick. I ran 2 inch plastic down to the meter/tap because it’s several hundred feet away, and there are two small households using the water from the existing well, another 700 feet of line.
But your house is probably 20 feet from the main, so a good sized water hose should work fine until they get you on a permanent copper connection and get it buried before cold weather season arrives, and water can freeze at a fairly hi temperature without any dirt at all between the pipe and the cold weather.
You can get a 3/4 inch hose if you’re worried, or you can decide that no one uses the dishwasher when you’re in the shower. etc. But pressure should be OK unless everyone in the house opens up a valve all the way and leaves it that way, in which case you will have both volume and pressure drop. New water line should improve water service a lot, so good luck!
J R in WV
@Iowa Old Lady: Why don’t you spend all day Friday with a couple of friends making a short lost of 2 or 3 questions designed to make him know you think he’s a dim asshole, third question for once he’s riled up a little designed to make him show his ass.
Then go to meet “Dr” Carson and let him have some fun with you. Building the questions would be both the fun part and the hard part /\ .
Really, I wouldn’t do it either, we’re having a neighborhood picnic at the lake, probably the last one of the season.
Paul in KY
@Thoughtful Today: I am too. I was just listing the main objection to it (by Repubs).
Paul in KY
@Brachiator: There were many more besides those 2, as I know you know.
Paul in KY
@Cervantes: Stick in the mud!!!!